Should troubs get more dps?

[MallickX]

Alright I have a 67 troubador so far that i semi-enjoy... I enjoy the buffs i put out and all that [Removed for Content] , what I don't enjoy is being at the bottom of the DPS charts... I also don't like the fact that every other class can get away with soloing green heroics and i simply get destroyed (im rocking all mc armor/jewelry , sta/str AA lines)... However, a friend of mine who happens to be a monk, a pretty buffed class if you ask me.... a bit too overpowered in most cases. He says that since troubadors give such great buffs they shouldn't be at the top of dps charts... While I don't think my class SHOULD be at the top of the dps charts i think we should atleast get some love on the dps side... I get tired of people saying that since we give so much good buffs that we shouldn't get anything else and we should be limited to just sitting around and giving buffs (which is pretty much what i do in groups anyway... im not contributing anything in terms of dps, hell im just above the healer in dps and thats the second to last spot... i get this all the time, is this REALLY what everybody thinks of the troubador class, merely buff bots with no other good qualities? i should jus frikkin go AFK and AF somebody and say 'be back in an hour'... what are your guys's thoughts on this? do you think we should be entitled to more DPS/Soloability?

[RanmaBoyType]

<p>Patience and practice.</p><p>I broke 3K last night on my troub in thuuga, finished 2300 for the zone.  That ain't too shabby, and i still am no where near what hardcore raid guild troubs can do.  But then again if i wanted to be the top end of the parse, there are many other class choices to do so, swash, brig, assassin, ranger, wizzy, conji, necro... the list goes on.  If your interest is solely being at the top of the dps parse, then troub is not for you.  </p><p>But don't let that discourage you from being able to do good dps.  Ill take the troub that tries over the auto follow buff bot any day.</p>

[Banditman]

Yep.  I do fine DPS for the RIDICULOUS buff ability that I have.Somewhere around here I did a comparison of total zone wide damage for a Troubador that showed that the Troubador was the second highest damage dealer in the zone when all of the damage attributed to PotM and Aria was re-directed to the Troubador.If you want to be at the top of the DPS list, you're playing the wrong class.  If you want to be in the top 10, you're playing the wrong class.Your job is to do as much DPS as you possibly can so that anyone who does less than you gets a dubya-tee-eff from the rest of the group / raid.I can parse about 1900 DPS on the Training Wall.  When I get lucky and have Bravo's Dance trigger, I can go for 2200+ easily.  I am just now starting to get rid of MC gear in favor of better drops from instances.  I have zero raid gear.I wouldn't mind seeing Troubadors get real Scout Poisons.  That'd be a "nice" increase.  It certainly won't even begin to bring us into the range of Rogues or Predators, but it would be fun.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> Yep.  I do fine DPS for the RIDICULOUS buff ability that I have</p><p>I think this is the core of the issue. How much personal DPS is worth sacrificing for (almost) passive group DPS? If you increase the overall group DPS 3000, should you sacrifice 2000 yourself, or isn't it worth it? What's the right ratio? 2:1 ... 3:1? There is no hard answer - it's all personal opinion. </p><p>Those who are happy with the current ratio are happy with their troubs. Those that aren't happy with the ratio are rolling other toons or betraying.</p><p>An over-simplification, but what the heck - it's the end of the day. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Banditman]

Copied from the other thread I initially developed this for:<span class="postbody">I don't have a bunch of logs available here, but, I did have an old log from when we were working on taking down Overking.  Very interesting and eye opening.I was playing my Illusionist on this encounter, but our other Troubador was present.  The group was:  Troubador, Illusionist, Necromancer, Conjuror, Wizard, Warden.For this comparison, I used total damage instead of DPS.  I think that's actually a better and more effective comparison for the case we're looking at here.In terms of damage dealt, our MT actually dealt the most damage, right at 7 million HP of damage.  Makes sense, he was not having to switch targets and deal with the adds.  Our Wizard was second at 4.5 million, Illusionist at 3.5 million.  The Troubador checked in at 2.46 million.Across all mobs, Precise Note dealt 1.27 million HP of damage and Dissonant Note dealt 1.35 million HP of damage.When you add the damage of Precise Note and Dissonant Note to our Troubadors totals, our Troubador actually dealt the second most damage in the zone at 4.52 million HP.  ACT showed the Troub in 10th . . . but in reality the overall impact was much, much higher.You'll have to decide if it's worth it to you.</span>

[Pogopuschel]

<cite>MallickX wrote:</cite><blockquote>Alright I have a 67 troubador so far that i semi-enjoy... I enjoy the buffs i put out and all that [I cannot control my vocabulary] , what I don't enjoy is being at the bottom of the DPS charts... I also don't like the fact that every other class can get away with soloing green heroics and i simply get destroyed (im rocking all mc armor/jewelry , sta/str AA lines)... However, a friend of mine who happens to be a monk, a pretty buffed class if you ask me.... a bit too overpowered in most cases. He says that since troubadors give such great buffs they shouldn't be at the top of dps charts... While I don't think my class SHOULD be at the top of the dps charts i think we should atleast get some love on the dps side... I get tired of people saying that since we give so much good buffs that we shouldn't get anything else and we should be limited to just sitting around and giving buffs (which is pretty much what i do in groups anyway... im not contributing anything in terms of dps, hell im just above the healer in dps and thats the second to last spot... i get this all the time, is this REALLY what everybody thinks of the troubador class, merely buff bots with no other good qualities? i should jus frikkin go AFK and AF somebody and say 'be back in an hour'... what are your guys's thoughts on this? do you think we should be entitled to more DPS/Soloability?</blockquote>About a year ago I would have agreed, but bards and Troubs in particular got some love in RoK.We are quite gear and buff dependant, and definately not built to handle blue heroics (RoK) in melee combat, even with a shield.Make sure you get some +crit and +doubleattack gear, make sure your STR and INT are high, engage the mob in a group or raid situation as fast as possible. Make sure you cast Thundrous Drumming (6<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> / Thunderous Overture (7<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> as often as possible. Keep in mind that around 30-40% of your damage will be from auto-attacking, but you need high delay weapons for that (pretty much none available for you atm, but there will be plenty from quests and instances in RoK) and so on... From what I've seen (not just from my guild, but also from others) is that in general Troubs can do average dps in a raid situation (outdoing most healers, some Dirges, Crusaders, ...) Don't give up hope, it's going to get better again in the 70s...But I agree with your general opinion, that because most of our buffing abilities are passive, we need something to keep us entertained while playing .. which pretty much leaves trying to dps <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kulaf]

<p>Simple answer.....yes.</p><p>This is not about parse envy......or raw numbers.  I don't care if Troub A can hit 3k or not.  The crux of the arguement needs to be where we rank with other classes.  What gets to me when I look at my raid parses is when the various tanking classes can out DPS me.  That really chaps my [I cannot control my vocabulary] because people always say we give up some direct DPS for utility to buff the DPS of others.......but tanks are supposed to be giving up DPS to be able to tank.  So for the sake of arguement if we say the ability to tank/off tank for a group/raid is equivilent to buffing......then a Scout should out DPS a Fighter assuming both are using a DPS AA setup.  And right now that is simply not the case with the ability to swap AA setup with the mirrors.</p><p>Troubs and Dirges both need some love.</p>

[Kelin]

Damage done has an impact on a tanks ability to hold aggro. Our dps has no impact on our ability to buff, debuff, and provide general support.

[Jeger_Wulf]

It does feel bad when tanks and healers out-damage me. Knowing I provide passive support is great, but my usefulness is less than that of a healer or tank, my DPS should be more.

[Banditman]

<cite>Kulanae@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Simple answer.....yes.</p><p>This is not about parse envy......or raw numbers.  I don't care if Troub A can hit 3k or not.  The crux of the arguement needs to be where we rank with other classes.  What gets to me when I look at my raid parses is when the various tanking classes can out DPS me.  That really chaps my [I cannot control my vocabulary] because people always say we give up some direct DPS for utility to buff the DPS of others.......but tanks are supposed to be giving up DPS to be able to tank.  So for the sake of arguement if we say the ability to tank/off tank for a group/raid is equivilent to buffing......then a Scout should out DPS a Fighter assuming both are using a DPS AA setup.  And right now that is simply not the case with the ability to swap AA setup with the mirrors.</p><p>Troubs and Dirges both need some love.</p></blockquote>Trying to wring some sense out of this is a little tough, but what I got was . . . "some fighters are outdamaging me, I should do more".Any tank who is TANKING is going to out DPS most of the raid . . . if he doesn't, he's likely going to lose aggro.  The +Threat abilities simply aren't scaling up very well.  I can't fix that.  Tanks can't fix that.  And it's not a Troubador problem until / unless SOE decides to rebalance the entire system.  A tanking Fighter gets turned into death incarnate simply so he can hold the attention of the mob while the rest of the raid rips its kidneys out thru its [posterior orifice].If you're being outdamaged by NON-tanking Fighters, perhaps you need to look at what you are doing less efficiently that you might otherwise.  I'm not being outdamaged by non-tanking Fighters in normal circumstances.  Yes, a Zerker or SK will probably out DPS me in AE situations.What do you parse on the training wall for instance?  Seriously, that training wall is a godsend for giving a balanced point of comparison.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> I'm not being outdamaged by non-tanking Fighters in normal circumstances.  </p><p>I believe your situation is unusual, but I will find out before long. My troub is 75.</p>

[Kelin]

Just so that were all on the same page.. which tanking classes are you talking about? Because a bruiser or monk will destroy you in dps. I mean yea you should probably be doing more then that guard but I wouldn't be as quick to dismiss the dps of hybrid tanks and healers.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> Because a bruiser or monk will destroy you in dps</p><p>That's what I have seen, too.</p>

[RanmaBoyType]

<p>On our raid force, i have seen bruisers and berzerkers as the only fighters to out parse me.  The MT "might" on a few individual fights, but never in the raidwide.  The zerker and bruisers also are very close in the raidwide.  Our force is still "growing" though as we are just breaking the 50-55k dps as a raid, and we never have the optimal setup.</p><p>As far as healers out dps-ing troubs.  this is a once in a few fights for our force, and it is only ever a fury, who also happens to be my wife, and it is never for the raidwide either, so im not too worried about it.  </p><p>If other healers in raid forces are constantly out dps-ing the troubs on every fight, i would like to know which class and what the difference is, and 1) if this is expected or if the troub sucks and the fury is just amazing (note i said fury)</p>

[Edith]

My experience is that my troub's dps output is highly buff dependant.  If I am lucky enough to be in a pure caster group I get all the nice buffs available and I do well.  However, the moment a rogue or a brawler gets moved into the group, poof!  There go all my happy buffs and down goes my dps.  So yep, that inquisitor in the scout group might just out dps me. And yep, I feel a bit ashamed, even though I know everybodies dps is somewhat buff dependant it can't help but sting, as a scout, to be outdone by a healer.   

[Banditman]

I agree, buffs can be important, thus why it's necessary to find an unbiased point of comparison.  All this talk of DPS and so few willing to put numbers to it.  I'll go first.I can generally parse about 1900 on the Training Wall.  If Bravo's Dance is up, I can push that up to 2100.  I have no raid loot at all on my Troubador, this is all Heroic or Solo gear, abilities are generally Adept 3 with the occasional Master.Anyone else care to share ?

[Kulaf]

<p>Ok little background I guess is in order.  I belong to a "casual raid guild"......defined as we raid primarily instanced content about 4 nights a week for about 3 hours a night.  We are mostly older previous "hardcores" from EQ1 that though we are older now and our lives don't allow us to raid like we used to still like to get stuff done.</p><p>Right now we are banging our heads on Druushk in VP and we think we are close to dropping him.  My gear is fair I would say.  Using Fabled Ayonic and Segmented Serator at the moment and have fairly good DPS gear elsewhere......non avatar of course. You can look me up on EQ2players if you want to see what I wear.</p><p>The only healers who can out DPS me are Furys.  Most of the bruisers can if they are trying to DPS......and non-tanking zerkers and guards can if they flip over to their DPS spec and offensive stances.</p><p>I personally don't feel that any tanking class.......nor any healer should be able to out DPS any Scout on average.  Sure there will always be instances where they might but the norm should be that any Scout out DPS's any healer or tank.  That is the way this game was designed originally and while other classes have made steady progress into our domain of buffing groups/raids......we have dropped in the DPS rankings.</p><p>One area where we might get some love is in our power drains.....which are now pretty much worthless outside of PvP.....and may be workthless in PvP as I don't play on a PvP server.  Coercers recently got a DPS boost from the retirement of their power draining abilities.....perhaps we need the same.</p>

[Kulaf]

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree, buffs can be important, thus why it's necessary to find an unbiased point of comparison.  All this talk of DPS and so few willing to put numbers to it.  I'll go first.I can generally parse about 1900 on the Training Wall.  If Bravo's Dance is up, I can push that up to 2100.  I have no raid loot at all on my Troubador, this is all Heroic or Solo gear, abilities are generally Adept 3 with the occasional Master.Anyone else care to share ?</blockquote>I'll try to put up some numbers in the next few days.

[RanmaBoyType]

<p>My situation is similiar to kulaf.</p><p>We raid with an alliance between IF and OOPs on mistmoore, and have a very lenient raid rules.  We still set a few requirements, but are far from your normal raiding guild that goes in with 2 fighters 4 bards and 4 ill/coercers, or whatever the perfect set up is.</p><p>Tonight we will be hitting up VP.  we also are yet unable to beat druushk, but i will post what i can from the trash in there on the way up.  Primary is fabled epic, secondary is betrayals song, and thats only cause out of 6 or 7 runs in SoH marrow's song has yet to drop <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   - i know i may lose dps from this but i wants it.</p>

[Banditman]

Here are some parses from the training wall last night.  I did use one of the temporary weapon adorns that adds 15 DPS.<img src="http://mail.thetemplars.net/images/walldps.jpg" alt="" border="0" />

[Bewts]

<p>Troubs are royalty when it comes to passive DPS that isn't applied to our ACT parses.  JCap is something that is really hard to account for, but Aria's and PotM add a significant amount of dps once you account for it and apply it to the Troub.  </p><p>I asked a raid leader of a pickup raid in SoH the other night to put me with the 80 Necro, 2 80 Conjy Warlock and Fury (not sure why I wasn't there to begin with) and on our second try on the mob you pingpong burn our raid's DPS went up 3.3k from just that switch.  Across the board the Conj's and Necro saw a 20% or greater increase in their DPS compared to the first attack.  Thats just from PotM and Aria's.  I was already JCaping those guys from outside of the group so nothing changed there.</p><p>We add a lot of DPS, it just isn't applied to our parses and attributed to us.  If you ever get your hands on a mythical, Aria's will give a 10% increase to the base damage of all hostile spells - thats pretty significant too - not to mention PotM becoming raid wide to proc off every taunt, debuff, nuke, anything hostile by anyone on the raid who cast's on the mob.</p><p>Overall, of course I'd like some more DPS on a raid that will show up under my name on the parse - but rest assured that if you are properly placed in a group to utilize your buffs you are adding a signfiicant amount of DPS that isn't attributed to you.</p>

[Kulaf]

Well I ran 5 parses before our raid tonight and I averaged about 2100 DPS.  Some were a bit better.....some a bit worse.  I was going to run some more extensive tests after the raid.......but we beat Druushk and I got my Mythical, hehe.  So now I guess I can run a few comparrison tests.

[TerabithianWhisperwi]

As I've said in other threads, I think it would be neat to have an AA line like mystics that allows our combat arts to have an alternative spell-attackcounterpart. (Mystics go the other way around, having their spells with combat art alternates).If this was so, then our countless spell buffs would be far more effective on ourselves, thus filling out our DPS numbers nicely.Just imagine if we had the option of making ALL of our attacks into "hostile spells". The implications are quite nice, and fit the class nicely.sneak attacks on a troubadour? nay nay. scrap em for more singing!