Coercers Fixed ?

[Antryg Mistrose]

Looking over the threads I collated into the sticky on the coercer forum, and betraying my illus on test back to coercer, I don't really think so.DPSPersonal DPS is where the main focus of the changes was/is.  Its now substantially higher than illusionists, even after the cutback last week, and as we are close to going live may make it in this form.So, Hostage, Spell Curse, Cataclysmic mind - all fixed (well mind doesn't work on the wall on test, and I can't see a reason from its spell description why not).Buffs:Coercive Healing will be in even more demand from priests with the timing changes (previously on my cleric it was a bit meh).  It does however only buff ONE priest - perhaps make it use a concentration slot and allow for more?Link? For a start, the T8 Adept III is a downgrade in EVERY respect over the T7 Master II choice  (and for all I know the T8 master as well).This spell really wasn't fixed - its now a threat POSITION decrease PROC on a MELEE hit, which makes the proc pretty well worthless - any mage this is cast on is not going to survive the  multiple melee hits from an epic required to ensure it procs, unless they have downright uber wards.  Excluding the proc, its just a poor man's Alin's (troubador spell), albiet one castable raid wide and on fighters too.Removing the deaggro (for fighters only) and leaving the damage shield alone might have been a better idea, if having the melee hit position deaggro 100% rather than a proc was too overpowering.  With coercer's improved dps elsewhere I can understand the removal of the damage shield, but how about leave it and assign it to the castee not caster (as per tandem).  Or add some time compressionist or crit type effects to it.Enraging Demenour - well apart from it still not having a T8 upgrade, now that coercers actually have some threat/dps to transfer it may be a bit more compelling, how it stacks up against a mythic equipped swashbuckler will be up to the raid guilds on live to test.Coercers place in the raid:MT groups have MT, Templar, Dirge, Shaman.  I can't see a coercer replacing any of them, so that leaves warden or assassin/swash.  Coercer improved dps (hate transfer) + power tricks + improved coercive healing may be enough to boot the assassin/swash.In other groups though? - Coercers still have no decent mage buffs compared to illusionists, and no IA equivalent for scouts.So I predict:1) No huge betrayals back to coercer likely, the classes are pretty balanced now - coercer higher individual dps, illusionist less situational buffs.2) Soloing coercers will even more so blow illusionists out of the water - higher dps, more stuns.  Groups, coercer has higher burst dps and thats all heroic mobs ever need, so again a win.  Raids - Still can't see a reason for a 2nd coercer over a 3rd illusionist.  Tashina MIGHT be that, but thats only going to be testable on live.

[Roald]

<p>The 'Link' spell line change has really annoyed me.</p><p>Its ruined this spell completely for PvP. Before, you could put this on the tank, and every time he gets hit with a spell, the caster would be hit for 250-450 damage. Now, no such thing happens.</p><p>I think to compromise with this change, it should now work as a de-target in PvP.</p><p>Oh yea, and the nerf to Hostage Reuse time/damage were too harsh, imo.</p>

[XFnarX]

<p>1) Stop complaining.</p><p>2) The best tank group with a Coercer that knows how to DPS should look like;</p><p>Warrior (aka tank, Guard or Zerker, sometimes Pally)DirgeCoercerTempDruid (pref Warden)Shaman (either works, Defiler is my pref)</p><p>So whom exactly would we be replacing? What do you use in MT group? </p><p>Honestly dude Coercer (and SKs) have gotten the shaft over our counter parts since the introduction of Tier 6 and now are getting a little attention and "some" people are freaking out about it. The statement, which I also originally incorrectly made, has been "The new fixes are WAY to over pwoering". After the recent nerf to the recast timers and several other small mods I have changed my tone about this statement -AND- have seen several other Coercers parse, including myself on singles, the training wall and groups of mobs. (Yet to see a raid setting tho.) From what I have gathered, low end DPS coercer will still be parsing 1,800 ~ 2,600 give or take on raids. Yes some high end Coercers will be parsing 5k+, but I know numerous Illus that currently do the same... so I ask you. What's the issue with this? Buffs? Now we have buffs people want and that are actually good... look at some of the Illus buffs that are saught after in melee -OR- mage DPS groups. So I'll ask again... what's the issue here? Have you done testing? Have you even seen parses from the test server? </p>

[Roald]

<cite>XFnarX wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>1) Stop complaining.</p><p>2) The best tank group with a Coercer that knows how to DPS should look like;</p><p>Warrior (aka tank, Guard or Zerker, sometimes Pally)DirgeCoercerTempDruid (pref Warden)Shaman (either works, Defiler is my pref)</p><p>So whom exactly would we be replacing? What do you use in MT group? </p><p>Honestly dude Coercer (and SKs) have gotten the shaft over our counter parts since the introduction of Tier 6 and now are getting a little attention and "some" people are freaking out about it. The statement, which I also originally incorrectly made, has been "The new fixes are WAY to over pwoering". After the recent nerf to the recast timers and several other small mods I have changed my tone about this statement -AND- have seen several other Coercers parse, including myself on singles, the training wall and groups of mobs. (Yet to see a raid setting tho.) From what I have gathered, low end DPS coercer will still be parsing 1,800 ~ 2,600 give or take on raids. Yes some high end Coercers will be parsing 5k+, but I know numerous Illus that currently do the same... so I ask you. What's the issue with this? Buffs? Now we have buffs people want and that are actually good... look at some of the Illus buffs that are saught after in melee -OR- mage DPS groups. So I'll ask again... what's the issue here? Have you done testing? Have you even seen parses from the test server? </p></blockquote>I'm not sure you understand the OP. He wasn't saying Coercers are overpowered now at all.

[Jesdyr]

<cite>Milambers@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I'm not sure you understand the OP. He wasn't saying Coercers are overpowered now at all.</blockquote>No he was saying that Coercers have a place in MT groups on raids (before and after the changes)He then went on about DPS.  I think FNAR is right .. The 1st changes were a bit much but the re-balancing went a little too far. Somewhere between current test and old test would have been great. However even what we have right now is better than Live.

[Grimlux]

Luckily we have the loudest voices of the community. Since most of our testing needs to happen on Live, when we get there then we can see exactly what should be tweaked. That's why none of the setbacks have bothered me that have been put on test. It may turn out that it hurts us, and it may turn out it makes us better. We'll see!

[Jesdyr]

<cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Luckily we have the loudest voices of the community. Since most of our testing needs to happen on Live, when we get there then we can see exactly what should be tweaked. That's why none of the setbacks have bothered me that have been put on test. It may turn out that it hurts us, and it may turn out it makes us better. We'll see!</blockquote>It really doesnt look like we are getting "hurt" .. it just isnt as nice as we would like. I think possession is the most disappointing change but does going from "almost useless" to "almost useless" hurt the class? No, but it doesn't make much sense to change it.

[Wrapye]

One nice change is that the range to cast Impetus and Enraging Demeanor increased to 25m, so you don't have to put yourself in the line of fire to rebuff a tank.Now if Possess Essence where to be changed to 25m (the same as Charm) we would have consistency.  Oh, and some visual indication on the icon (i.e. tinting) to indicate whether or not the character is close enough to cast Possess Essence would be nice.  Is there a mechanistic reason for needing the target to be 'self' rather than the mob?

[XFnarX]

Yeah, sorry if I wasn't being clear before. I agree with everyone saying that the original changes were pretty much OP DPS wise, now I believe they are right on par. I honestly love a lot of the new buff changes as well, makes us more useful on a raid. Not saying we aren't currently, but you have to be down right impressive to land a constant spot in the MT group for higher end raiding guilds and originally having more than 1 Coercer on a raid was almost laughable where having 3 Illus wasn't uncommon and almost desired. So yeah, my bad! lol

[Antryg Mistrose]

<p>I thought I was being pretty clear.</p><p> I didn't copy to test in time to test the original "overpowered" coercer changes.  What I did test was the difference between an identically geared coercer and illusionist solo.  ie I copied my illusionist to test, did some tests against the wall, betrayed on test to coercer, scribed a heap of adeptIII spells, retested.  If anyone else has gone to a similar effort, I haven't heard of it.</p><p>There were 2 reasons I did this - personal curiosity - I only recently betrayed from coercer to illusionist on live after doing some research into current coercer woes (see sticky on coercer forum),  and was curious how much of a "fix" it really was, and to also counter a lot of misinformation  posted by both types of enchanter about comparitive dps.</p><p>My conclusions (with the emphasis on "my" ) is that coercers on test NOW (after the May 6 "nerf"  ) still have higher personal dps potential than illusionists, but also still have more situational / lacklustre buffs.  The changes to Link specifically are not useful.</p><p> ie From my original "wants" :</p><p><b>1) The potential for a LOT more personal DPS  (just the potential the actual can be left to player skill)2) Competitevely compelling buffs to the other "Utility" classes</b></p><p>Coercers only got 1) IMO</p><p>Is it enough? not my call, as I don't intend to betray, yet again <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[XFnarX]

<cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><b>1) The potential for a LOT more personal DPS  (just the potential the actual can be left to player skill)2) Competitevely compelling buffs to the other "Utility" classes</b></p></blockquote>So... how was this not accomplished with what's on test now? I mean dude, almost 4k solo on the training wall with no pet where Hostage doesn't even work... and the Coercive healing buff is now OMG awesome. Yes what they added to Mana Ward and our dehate is kinda, well, lacking, but what else did you expect us to get? Honestly I'm curious, because all of this is boarder-line OP right now. I personally think they found a happy place with the spell changes.