A new low for my SK

[zukem]

So I consider myself a competent SK.  Fairly mastered and fabled out.  Can OT T8 Raids.  But can't seem to figure out the right combination to do these 3k in damage that people are talking about.  Parse wise, on the bottom end.  But can sometimes barely beat out a Pally and Guard if he's just a filler.  So compared to other plate fighters, not too bad.  Until a week ago.  That's when the the guild decided to go into maidens.  I was on my level 79 Inquisitor, and when I joined, there was a fury already in group, along with an assassin that started raiding oh about two months ago.  So seeing as there was no tank, I offered up my SK.  Response was, naw, we don't need him.   Ok, so who's tanking, since there wasn't a fighter in group.  The assassin will tank.  Of course my response was, no really, who's going to tank?  They filled up the group with zero fighters.We go through maidens, and he barely gets touched, while at the same time holding agro, and topping the parse.  He says he doesn't really need a second healer in Maidens, a fury was really just good enough.  Then to top it off, doing a PR run.  MT goes down on the six pack.  No prob, I pick it up.  Taking my spike damage like usual.  Then bang.  The assassin takes agro from me.  And he keeps agro, while finishing off the encounter.  Taking very little damage.  All I can hear in vent is people laughing, saying look at the Assassin tank.  It's just depressing thinking about the numbers.  Assassin 4k-6k (probably a lot higher in high end guilds).  SK 1.5k-3k, maybe 4k in high end guilds.  Offtank ability, Assassin = SK.  Utility value, Assassins can at least poison someone's blade and transfer agro.  SK's, well, umm we have a raid wide spell damage increaser.  For the life of me, I can't think of one good reason why right now, a raid would want to take a SK over an assassin.  On the bright side.  At least my coercer is getting some love in the next patch. 

[dlove1]

I was in a group last night that had a SK in mostly fabled gear and a brigand in mostly fabled. SK's mit was 53% the brigands was 50%. SK had 18% avoidance. the brigand had 30%.

[Beldin_]

<cite>dlove183 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I was in a group last night that had a SK in mostly fabled gear and a brigand in mostly fabled. SK's mit was 53% the brigands was 50%. SK had 18% avoidance. the brigand had 30%. </blockquote><p>Brigs have the highest miti of all scouts, they are really close to plate tanks with their miti selfebuff. The SK with 18% however was using no shield .. but also a brig with shield will have 50% avoidance or whatever while an SK has only around 35 <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Assassin as tank however sound a little strange to me since most of their attacks only work from behind, so i wonder a little how they still will do big damage then.</p>

[Pimmy]

<p>Nerf nerf nerf!!! :X</p><p>Quite worrying since as SK I can only do maidens well if I bring two aggro buffing or transfering classes in group. Well ok one will do, but the dps peels aggro off me on every mob (and most likely tanks drusella). And under any circumstance I never take cloth dps in maidens (unless you count  Illu as cloth dps <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ).</p>

[Hamervelder]

I hadn't noticed it until recently (because I literally soloed my way to 80, due to my odd play schedule), but something is certainly wrong with our agro capability.  Yes, I can still hold agro, but I really have to work so much harder than I did in EoF.  Mages, priests, bards, no problem.  Throw a predator or a rogue into the mix, and forget it.  I'm done.  Death March won't even peel agro off.  The sad part?  My swashbuckler is a better tank than most crusaders.  I have 4% less mitigation on my swashy than my SK does, and my SK's gear is nicer.  Swashy has 15% - 20% more avoidance.  To top it off, I see SK's my swashy's level (72) with 7k or less HP.  I'm sitting at about 8.2k.  So to recap ..... almost as much mitigation as an SK.  Much more avoidance.  As much (if not more) health.  More power.  Much more dps.  The same number of taunts if you go the STA line (which I did).  Why even take an SK along on a group?  The only thing swashbucklers lack is some type of snap agro and rescue.  Crusaders, and especially SK's are feeling more and more gimped to me as time goes on.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I used to preach the wonders of our class, but the more I play, the more I feel like the shadowknight class has been forsaken by the devs.

[Beldin_]

<cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote> I have 4% less mitigation on my swashy than my SK does, and my SK's gear is nicer.  Swashy has 15% - 20% more avoidance.  To top it off, I see SK's my swashy's level (72) with 7k or less HP.  I'm sitting at about 8.2k. </blockquote><p>The mitigation difference to a swashy is bigger, its around 9-10% .. my SK has 49% my Swashy has 40% ..  but thats without the endskill from STA line, i don't know how much that gives at the moment. The difference in Life .. yeah its roughly 1000 points .. my SK has 10267, my Swashy 9090. The gear of the swashy is however better since i didn't played my SK much in RoK <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>However .. please don't cry for nerf because in my eyes rouges are really the best rounded classes in my opinion, and before RoK my SK for me as a non raider was also a well rounded class (read : I said as Non-Raider !!) and i'm really sad that i can't say that no longer, but i don't want to see the next classes get nerfed <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<p>Also, most (if not all in many cases) non-tank avoid is contested. Give me Block/Parry/Riposte over contested avoid anyday. Most scouts are still well below crusader avoidance anyway though (and a far cry below considering uncontested avoidance). Equivalently geared scouts can't touch crusader Mit either. Decently geared tank buffed crusaders are usually weighing in at 64%+ mit (.vs 80s), depending on how they prioritize mit/avoid/dps/aggro.</p><p>That being said, I have seen strong assassins and rogues hanging in perfectly well against Tier 1 and 2 raid mobs...but I've also seen them get cut down like they weren't there against the same mobs on different nights, especially early on in fights before all de-buffs land. They just don't have the tools for consistancy. They might survive better than expected (or than we might hope)....but they are far from the same capability level imo.</p>

[Hamervelder]

<cite>Kendara@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote> I have 4% less mitigation on my swashy than my SK does, and my SK's gear is nicer.  Swashy has 15% - 20% more avoidance.  To top it off, I see SK's my swashy's level (72) with 7k or less HP.  I'm sitting at about 8.2k. </blockquote><p>The mitigation difference to a swashy is bigger, its around 9-10% .. my SK has 49% my Swashy has 40% ..  but thats without the endskill from STA line, i don't know how much that gives at the moment. The difference in Life .. yeah its roughly 1000 points .. my SK has 10267, my Swashy 9090. The gear of the swashy is however better since i didn't played my SK much in RoK <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>However .. please don't cry for nerf because in my eyes rouges are really the best rounded classes in my opinion, and before RoK my SK for me as a non raider was also a well rounded class (read : I said as Non-Raider !!) and i'm really sad that i can't say that no longer, but i don't want to see the next classes get nerfed <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>The difference between my swashbuckler and SK is less than 5%.  Would you like me to post the screenshots for you?  I'm not saying that swashbucklers need nerfed.  Indeed, they're a well-rounded class.  Crusaders, and SK's specifically, need some serious love.  In truth though, there really isn't a need for fighters outside of raiding.  I've seen clerics tank CoA.  I've seen necros tank the same instance.  Heck, I tanked all the EoF instances on my swashy at 70.  Fighters in general (and SK's especially) simply aren't needed anymore.  That boils down to poor design. 

[Beldin_]

<cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The difference between my swashbuckler and SK is less than 5%.  Would you like me to post the screenshots for you? </blockquote>Yeah i believe you have speced the endskill of the STA line and that makes the different, right ?

[Hamervelder]

<cite>Kendara@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The difference between my swashbuckler and SK is less than 5%.  Would you like me to post the screenshots for you? </blockquote>Yeah i believe you have speced the endskill of the STA line and that makes the different, right ?</blockquote>It certainly makes up some of the difference yes, you're correct.  However, regardless of how you slice it, SK's are just lacking in comparison to rogues. 

[Tiberuis]

<cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendara@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The difference between my swashbuckler and SK is less than 5%.  Would you like me to post the screenshots for you? </blockquote>Yeah i believe you have speced the endskill of the STA line and that makes the different, right ?</blockquote>It certainly makes up some of the difference yes, you're correct.  However, regardless of how you slice it, SK's are just lacking in comparison to rogues.  </blockquote><p>Yes, we are lacking in comparison to Rogues.  But if I want to do a fair comparison, I'll roll a Rogue, and compare the subclasses in that context.</p><p>Where <u>we have truly hit rock bottom</u> is in comparison to the other plate tank classes.  It is embarrassing watching a Guardian Tank, <i>and</i> DPS, the pants off our class.  It is not balanced, not even close.</p>

[baddog]

you think THATS a low ???my SK is a semi retired 79 , I can't take the humiliation.After seeing the update notes fixing Despoiling mist , I oiled my rusty SK and headed to Kunzarwasn't too bad in Sibilius with 3 healers ... replaced a coercer with a dirge and headed to CoAthat was the last time I tanked till the EmperorI'd snare pull , land both taunts ,  then the dirge would hit it and I'd lose agro SOMETIMES death march or touch would turn it before snapping back.wondered [Removed for Content] till the dirge posted a parse , my 900 against his 2400I'm [Removed for Content] in the wind OoP and the dirge is 50% or betteryears of subscription fees to get clowned , thats a business model going places, muahaha

[Hamervelder]

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kendara@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The difference between my swashbuckler and SK is less than 5%.  Would you like me to post the screenshots for you? </blockquote>Yeah i believe you have speced the endskill of the STA line and that makes the different, right ?</blockquote>It certainly makes up some of the difference yes, you're correct.  However, regardless of how you slice it, SK's are just lacking in comparison to rogues.  </blockquote><p>Yes, we are lacking in comparison to Rogues.  But if I want to do a fair comparison, I'll roll a Rogue, and compare the subclasses in that context.</p><p>Where <u>we have truly hit rock bottom</u> is in comparison to the other plate tank classes.  It is embarrassing watching a Guardian Tank, <i>and</i> DPS, the pants off our class.  It is not balanced, not even close.</p></blockquote>I 100% agree with you there. 

[DwarvesR]

<cite>baddog wrote:</cite><blockquote>. . . the dirge posted a parse, my 900 against his 2400.  I'm [Removed for Content] in the wind OoP and the dirge is 50% or better . . .</blockquote><p>900?  I haven't seen a ZW that low since I was in my mid-50's.  I don't run a parser myself -- so long as the mobs are dying and I and my groupmates aren't I don't really care, but if someone in the group has one I ask to see parses on named and ZW at the end.</p><p>I'm only 74, but the last time I tanked a group I was about 1800 ZW in level 72 MC armor and level 62 jewelry that I haven't bothered to upgrade since I know I'll get better stuff in RoK anyway.  It was a relatively AE-centric T7 zone, so that helped boost me up, I'm sure.</p><p>The only tank that's ever held aggro off my warlock in VoES was an SK.  I was doing 4200-5900 per AE fight and the SK held it all.  If I go all out like that with a guard or zerk I still get aggro.  I've even pulled it from a pallie with Amends on me.</p><p>I tank in offensive stance for the most part.  Don't really need to since I have 600 INT in defensive.  STR 4-4-6-8-2, STA 4-1, INT 4-4-8, hate spec + reaver is how my AA's are set up, and I've only got 88 aa's.</p><p>I will grant you that my power is sucked dry all the time to be able to do what I do though, but even so -- I really don't have any idea why you're having so much trouble.  I've never had aggro problems with my sk.</p><p>I've not ever raided on my SK before tonight where I was OT.  Had no problem picking up adds and holding them while the dps burned them.   It was quite fun, I thought.  No one ran a parser, so I have no idea how the raid went overall, but it ended with a dead boss and exquisite chest, so I'm not complaining.</p>

[Lord Hackenslash]

<cite>Jonna@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I've not ever raided on my SK before tonight where I was OT.  Had no problem picking up adds and holding them while the dps burned them.   It was quite fun, I thought.  No one ran a parser, so I have no idea how the raid went overall, but it ended with a dead boss and exquisite chest, so I'm not complaining.</p></blockquote><p>I am not trying to turn this into a flam war so please dont take this the wrong way. At 74 i assume you were not tanking t8, instead you were OT in a raid zone for t7 and 4 levels above the level cap for that tier. Just what i gathered from your post. in full devout our dps will be pretty good but defensively if not for the fact that you are above the level of t7 you would have been very hard to keep alive. In T8 the mobs hit too hard to tank in offensive stance and we need to squeeze every ounce of defense out of our gear. STR/INT gear means no agility or no stamina in most cases. this lessens our survivability. Most tank gear will have effects that only benefit melee,  causing a lowered benefit to a class that splits melee and spell casting as a form of damage. The more we raise our avoidange and mitigation the less we can buff our spellcasting. at this point our class lacks a focus and we are suffering for it. Again I am not trying to say you are wrong but hopefully this might help you understand a little of what we are talking about. Try tanking that same raid you mentioned in t7 mastercrafted and you might understand the issue a bit more.</p>

[jagermonsta]

Hate transfer makes all the difference.Try grouping with a overzealous Monk and his epic with no hate transfer class. Basically... let the monk MT.

[baddog]

yep , just did, lol.  Can't hold agro against a monks 1.9k . Devistation fist averages 5 times the damage of death touch , and refreshes 5 times as fast <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" />My dps dropped 500 from EoF to RoK , I had no trouble pumping 1.2-1.4k against yellow heroics in Unrest , or tanking HoF in KoSI am Mit/Avoidance geared in RoK legendary , but switched up to int gear to retest it again, and what I gained in Spell damage, I lost in melee, lolCoA isn't that bad at 79 ,  even with one healer , IF I can hold agro  . For me, the fast repops and mob crowding in Sibilus is worse.Haven't made the transition to VoES  , just like I never did to CMMedit - forgot the decimal points, and meant CMM not MMC

[Beldin_]

With level 70 i could do 1300 dps in instances like Nest without specials buffs and Wizards also barely did more .. today i can do 1300 in CoA with a dirge, but all other DD.classes do 2000-2500 .. thats simple the problem <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/136dd33cba83140c7ce38db096d05aed.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[DwarvesR]

<cite>Melina@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jonna@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I've not ever raided on my SK before tonight where I was OT.  Had no problem picking up adds and holding them while the dps burned them.   It was quite fun, I thought.  No one ran a parser, so I have no idea how the raid went overall, but it ended with a dead boss and exquisite chest, so I'm not complaining.</p></blockquote><p>I am not trying to turn this into a flam war so please dont take this the wrong way. At 74 i assume you were not tanking t8, instead you were OT in a raid zone for t7 and 4 levels above the level cap for that tier. Just what i gathered from your post. in full devout our dps will be pretty good but defensively if not for the fact that you are above the level of t7 you would have been very hard to keep alive. In T8 the mobs hit too hard to tank in offensive stance and we need to squeeze every ounce of defense out of our gear. STR/INT gear means no agility or no stamina in most cases. this lessens our survivability. Most tank gear will have effects that only benefit melee,  causing a lowered benefit to a class that splits melee and spell casting as a form of damage. The more we raise our avoidange and mitigation the less we can buff our spellcasting. at this point our class lacks a focus and we are suffering for it. Again I am not trying to say you are wrong but hopefully this might help you understand a little of what we are talking about. Try tanking that same raid you mentioned in t7 mastercrafted and you might understand the issue a bit more.</p></blockquote><p>Oh no, you're absolutely right -- I'm in full Incarnadine Devout, so my mitigation is definitely higher than it was in Xegonite, plus I have better stats to boot.  I have a legendary kite shield with a hate proc on it.  And I'm 74 and so were the mobs I was OT'ing, so they were white as opposed to yellow.  And they were "just" heroic adds spawned by the main mob, not epics themselves, so yeah, it could have been a lot worse for me, but considering I've never raided at all before and expected to be on a healer on this raid too -- it was kinda fun when the raid leader asked me to bring my SK instead to OT.  All he cared about was "Plate Tank to OT" and no one else from our alliance had a high enough alt.</p><p>I was just glad to be able to go on my 1st ever raid on my SK and to even be of some use on it.</p>