Changes to Chamber of Destiny Access

[jimbrit]

<span class="postbody"><p><b>From the test notes:</b></p><p><b></b></p><p><b>GAMEPLAY</b></p><ul><li>Your entire raid can now enter the Chamber of Destiny if a single member has access to the zone.</li></ul>Good job on screwing over all the guilds who put in the hard work to get their whole raidforce flagged.Why not just sell Veeshan's Peak Access on a merchant and be done with it </span><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Druid03]

i have to agree this is a pretty stupid change, if it was 80% of the raid force or something like that with access it would be better. but only needing 1 person with access you can just pay some alt from a hardcore raid guild to zone you in lolplease change it to a high % of the raid force needing access, this will fix the back-flagging hassle for new members or alts

[Kahling]

<p>As a guild that is currently working on T2 and hoping to progress to T3 then to T4.  And as I have T3&T4 access I hope this is NOT going on the live server.</p><p>A more intelligent change would be to say change it to 18 toons have to have access.  That way raid forces that run with over 24 toons can make sure all the raid force can go to the new zone they just opened .  Also change VP to be 18 toons.</p><p>But please were motivated to kill OK and VS to get to the leviathan, and then motivated to get the leviathan to get to VP.  We want to earn it!</p><p>Change it to 18 please, not 1.</p>

[Grimlux]

<p>Good. Im glad they're going to accomodate the other 90% of raiders who are struggling on a mob that is out of whack difficulty wise. Get off your high horse OP, are you the only one that pay's for sub's in this game? I would have preferred if they would have just tweaked Venril Sathir down to a less then luck fight at times and that would have cleared the whole issue right up. </p><p>If SOE wouldnt have made this change, they would have lost a ton of subs, whether you like it or not. </p>

[Druid03]

<cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Good. Im glad they're going to accomodate the other 90% of raiders who are struggling on a mob that is out of whack difficulty wise. Get off your high horse OP, are you the only one that pay's for sub's in this game? I would have preferred if they would have just tweaked Venril Sathir down to a less then luck fight at times and that would have cleared the whole issue right up. </p><p>If SOE wouldnt have made this change, they would have lost a ton of subs, whether you like it or not. </p></blockquote>i understand ppl are struggling with VS and its NOT a fun fight (random timers are not fun), but you will still have to kill it to be able to zone into T3.....unless you recruit someone with access.....or pay some alt to zone you inwouldnt 75-80% of the raid with access make more sence? or even 50%...

[Grimlux]

<cite>Druid03 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Good. Im glad they're going to accomodate the other 90% of raiders who are struggling on a mob that is out of whack difficulty wise. Get off your high horse OP, are you the only one that pay's for sub's in this game? I would have preferred if they would have just tweaked Venril Sathir down to a less then luck fight at times and that would have cleared the whole issue right up. </p><p>If SOE wouldnt have made this change, they would have lost a ton of subs, whether you like it or not. </p></blockquote>i understand ppl are struggling with VS and its NOT a fun fight (random timers are not fun), but you will still have to kill it to be able to zone into T3.....unless you recruit someone with access.....or pay some alt to zone you inwouldnt 75-80% of the raid with access make more sence? or even 50%...</blockquote><p>Actually, just making Venril Sathir in sync in difficulty to where he's at progression wise would fix this issue, but if SOE just wants to "Put a bandaid" over the real issues then whatever. This works too.</p>

[Druid03]

VS is as hard as the overking, maybe even easier after you buckle-up and pull VS till he dies and understand how the new encounter works (group cures = dead VS)if at least 50% of your raid force didnt kill VS then, to be honest, you shouldnt be in T3/4we were stuck on T2 for about 2 months, having to back flag new members and all without beeing able to get a good raid force to even try Levi so i know how frustrating it can get, to the point that you dont want to play anymore cuz you feel ppl are holding you backbut putting an easy button to zone into this zone will just make alot of ppl  bang their heads against a wall when they do levi, so they will eventually have to add one for VP...

[bryldan]

<cite>Druid03 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Good. Im glad they're going to accomodate the other 90% of raiders who are struggling on a mob that is out of whack difficulty wise. Get off your high horse OP, are you the only one that pay's for sub's in this game? I would have preferred if they would have just tweaked Venril Sathir down to a less then luck fight at times and that would have cleared the whole issue right up. </p><p>If SOE wouldnt have made this change, they would have lost a ton of subs, whether you like it or not. </p></blockquote>i understand ppl are struggling with VS and its NOT a fun fight (random timers are not fun), but you will still have to kill it to be able to zone into T3.....unless you recruit someone with access.....or pay some alt to zone you inwouldnt 75-80% of the raid with access make more sence? or even 50%...</blockquote>I would be fine with either I do not care personally I just think that something needed to be done about the flagging issue. I freaking cant stand going on VS raids and it seems the guild i am in is having to do it more and more and it only takes taking down 1 [Removed for Content] to make this mob a pita. It just seemed like everytime the guild i am in would want to go hit higher tier zones we would be missing a certain class that had access and had to pick up someone who of course didnt so we were forced to have to keep flagging ppl over and over and over. The flagging system is more geared towards guilds who have a very consistant raid force which MOST guilds do not and is one of the reasons you are not seeing many guilds advancing to vp. The mobs up to there are not that hard just aggrivating is all.

[Kahling]

<p>I totally agree the flagging as it stands just now sucks but for it to be 1 toon out of the force to be flagged is daft, 50% (12 toons) to 75% (18 toons) would seem a better figure for any of the zones you have to flag for.</p><p>If VS is random then that needs changing pronto, were at OK and nearly there on him, VS is our next target.  Fights should be down to 100% skill with as little luck involved as possible.</p>

[Gaige]

<p>It doesn't really matter.  Guilds that can't kill VS will struggle against Leviathan anyway, not to mention be stuck on the first wing of VP for months.  Nexona takes way more coordination than VS.</p><p>All this amounts to is giving guilds struggling on T2 one more zone to struggle with, it really changes nothing.</p>

[Lodrelhai]

Actually what this change will do is give Lore fanatics who're casual players or part of small, friend-and-family guilds with maybe 7-10 total unique players a shot at actually finishing a quest connected to a major storyline which we've been following since the game first launched.  Because it allows for raid-forces which are a bit short of people to fill the gaps without having to worry whether the people being picked up are flagged or not.That said, a 50% or 75% flagged requirement would be a sensible compromise.  But if a single flagged person wants to attempt it with a pick-up raid, why not?  Given the commentary already, their chances of actually beating the Leviathan seem pretty slim, so no loss there.  At least until next level cap raise.Alternately, SOE could STOP PUTTING MAJOR STORYLINES ON RAIDS!Seriously, I say this all the time - give us a heroic version of the lore progression with some no-status-reduction house-item-only version of whatever reward is offered and a pathetic loot table that offers Uncommon at BEST and I will never, ever complain about raids and raid progression again.

[Gaige]

<cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually what this change will do is give Lore fanatics who're casual players or part of small, friend-and-family guilds with maybe 7-10 total unique players a shot at actually finishing a quest connected to a major storyline which we've been following since the game first launched.</blockquote>What quest are you talking about?

[LazyPurp]

<cite>Druid03 wrote:</cite><blockquote>VS is as hard as the overking, maybe even easier after you buckle-up and pull VS till he dies and understand how the new encounter works (group cures = dead VS)if at least 50% of your raid force didnt kill VS then, to be honest, you shouldnt be in T3/4we were stuck on T2 for about 2 months, having to back flag new members and all without beeing able to get a good raid force to even try Levi so i know how frustrating it can get, to the point that you dont want to play anymore cuz you feel ppl are holding you backbut putting an easy button to zone into this zone will just make alot of ppl  bang their heads against a wall when they do levi, so they will eventually have to add one for VP...</blockquote>Amen!Make it 75% of the raid has to have the flag. That's the only fair option...letting everyone in because one person has access is a complete BS!

[Lodrelhai]

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually what this change will do is give Lore fanatics who're casual players or part of small, friend-and-family guilds with maybe 7-10 total unique players a shot at actually finishing a quest connected to a major storyline which we've been following since the game first launched.</blockquote>What quest are you talking about?</blockquote><a href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?eq2quest=4578" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Into the Bowels of the Beast</a> - part of the Fate of Norrath quest line.  Most of the raid progression is still required to do the storyline, but as the quest prior to this one requires killing either VS or the Overking, not both, people working on the series can progress it without struggling to slip in the extra raid.

[Iseabeil]

<cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually what this change will do is give Lore fanatics who're casual players or part of small, friend-and-family guilds with maybe 7-10 total unique players a shot at actually finishing a quest connected to a major storyline which we've been following since the game first launched.</blockquote>What quest are you talking about?</blockquote><a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?eq2quest=4578" target="_blank">Into the Bowels of the Beast</a> - part of the Fate of Norrath quest line.  Most of the raid progression is still required to do the storyline, but as the quest prior to this one requires killing either VS or the Overking, not both, people working on the series can progress it without struggling to slip in the extra raid.</blockquote><p>Im not sure how much this change will help honestly. You may get one step further, but to finish it you will have to slay Trakanon wich means clearing VP first. Some VP mobs arent that hard, but some, like Nexona, are gonna be as bad or worse roadlocks then Venril and then you have good old Trak at the end, and I really cant see any guild unable to down Venril being able to take down Trak. So, you will have a shot at progressing the quest, finishing on the other hand?</p><p>As for the flagging, 18/24 would be much better then both 24/24 or 1/24, makes sure most of the raid has participated in the progression without overdoing it. Im curious wether they gonna keep VP/Trak flags as is, or if they intend to do same there.</p>

[LazyPurp]

<cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually what this change will do is give Lore fanatics who're casual players or part of small, friend-and-family guilds with maybe 7-10 total unique players a shot at actually finishing a quest connected to a major storyline which we've been following since the game first launched.</blockquote>What quest are you talking about?</blockquote><a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?eq2quest=4578" target="_blank">Into the Bowels of the Beast</a> - part of the Fate of Norrath quest line.  Most of the raid progression is still required to do the storyline, but as the quest prior to this one requires killing either VS or the Overking, not both, people working on the series can progress it without struggling to slip in the extra raid.</blockquote>The next quest is even more difficult to complete...this fix...will not allow anyone to be complete as far as lore and quest fans go unless they can kill VS...because VP is harder and Trak going to be a fun ride! T1-T3 are training grounds...learn to beat them and beat them together...then you have a good chance at VP.<b><u>Taking on Trakanon</u></b><u><a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?eq2quest=4314" target="_blank">http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/quest....l?eq2quest=4314</a></u><b><u></u></b>Kill all of the dragons and their guardians in Veeshan's PeakKluzen the ProtectorElder EkronNexonaDruushkTaskmaster NichokMilyex ViorenQunard AshenclawXygozHoshkarTravenro the SkygazerSilverwingPhara Dar <div align="center"><div align="left"><u><b>The Secret of the Stone:</b></u><a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?eq2quest=4579" target="_blank">http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/quest....l?eq2quest=4579</a>related zones <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/zone.html?eq2zone=424" target="_blank">Trakanon's Lair</a></div></div>75% should have flags to be fair...it's not impossible to do.  Everyone in my guild has spent no less than 20 hours a week for months getting flags for everyone and everyone is very proud of the hard work they have put in to advance us as a team. This quest line was designed for raiders - it flows with the access needed and the progression of mobs needed in order to complete it.

[Grimlux]

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It doesn't really matter.  Guilds that can't kill VS will struggle against Leviathan anyway, not to mention be stuck on the first wing of VP for months.  Nexona takes way more coordination than VS.</p><p>All this amounts to is giving guilds struggling on T2 one more zone to struggle with, it really changes nothing.</p></blockquote><p>There's a huge difference between coordination and luck. There will be guilds that progress just fine into Lev and VP, even if they cannot kill VS now, which is really what the opposers to this change is afraid of. Again, I would prefer if they would just make Venril Sathir ummmm...work w/out luck or even one person fooking the encounter up. </p><p>Everyone keeps touting the 75% stuff. Do you actually believe theyre making this change to keep the guilds already in VP, in VP? I dont think so. Theyre making the change so that guilds stuck on VS can alternately advance into VP. </p>

[Guldor]

i think 12/24 would be ok.i know the problem of changing raidforce.we got 23 players flagged with a venril kill... but when we killed him we were missind some of our key players. and now we are stuggeling again on him. venril is so random. statues are getting bugged and timers seem to be off.venril is not a fun fight. not even a fair one.and even wehen we got 23 players venril flagged (even more on ok) it is possible we not even getting 18 peeps on that are flagged for t3.so giving guild like this a chance i think 12 out of 24 would be fair. it will still take them at least 1 venril kill. and they cant buy them in easy.but i am very happy we can start working our way towards vp now with venril out of our way (we still have to kill him for epic updates.).

[Gaige]

<cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote><a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?eq2quest=4578" target="_blank">Into the Bowels of the Beast</a> - part of the Fate of Norrath quest line.  Most of the raid progression is still required to do the storyline, but as the quest prior to this one requires killing either VS or the Overking, not both, people working on the series can progress it without struggling to slip in the extra raid.</blockquote><p>Is there a reason that non-raiders are doing the raid instance progression quest line?  All that quest does is lead raiders through the raid tiers leading up to Trakanon, I don't understand why a non-raider would be interested in it.</p><p>Also, as has been stated, the rest of the series involves killing every single named in VP and Trakanon, which no casual guild will be doing, so this change does nothing for your problem I'm afraid.</p>

[Gaige]

<cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>There's a huge difference between coordination and luck. There will be guilds that progress just fine into Lev and VP, even if they cannot kill VS now, which is really what the opposers to this change is afraid of. Again, I would prefer if they would just make Venril Sathir ummmm...work w/out luck or even one person fooking the encounter up. <p>Everyone keeps touting the 75% stuff. Do you actually believe theyre making this change to keep the guilds already in VP, in VP? I dont think so. Theyre making the change so that guilds stuck on VS can alternately advance into VP. </p></blockquote><p>Speaking as someone who was in VP in December and having killed all the encounters in the game save Tangrin and 4 avatars, I still think my statement is true.  Venril is not hard, we almost always first pull him, yet we can still mess up and wipe to Nexona.  Nexona has A LOT more going on than Venril.  A guild who has pulled Venril for months upon end with no success isn't really going to stand a chance against Nexona even if they do beat Leviathan and get into VP.  So all this solves is what, people complaining that VP is too hard in a month or so?</p><p>Also Leviathan is pretty unintuitive so I don't see a lot of guilds who couldn't click statues and watch their detrimental (all you need to do to beat Venril) being able to beat him, like I said.</p><p>If you're complaining about one person messing the encounter up, well then don't even try Trakanon.  That is all I'll say on that subject.</p><p>As for your "they're making this change so guilds stuck on VS can advance to VP" - GUILDS STUCK ON VS DON'T NEED TO BE IN VP.  Period.  If you can't consistently kill VS despite the "luck" and "one person messing the encounter up" you're in for a world of dismay, disappoint and whining once you get into VP.  All this does is change where the roadblock is, and give the ability for lackluster raiders to focus their whining on VP mobs instead of VS.</p><p>I'm sorry but raiding in EQ2 isn't hard, if you can't clear T2 then you really have no business raiding the higher tiers.   Truth hurts.</p>

[Grimlux]

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>GUILDS STUCK ON VS DON'T NEED TO BE IN VP.  Period.  If you can't consistently kill VS despite the "luck" and "one person messing the encounter up" you're in for a world of dismay, disappoint and whining once you get into VP.  All this does is change where the roadblock is, and give the ability for lackluster raiders to focus their whining on VP mobs instead of VS.</p><p>I'm sorry but raiding in EQ2 isn't hard, if you can't clear T2 then you really have no business raiding the higher tiers.   Truth hurts.</p></blockquote><p>To bad your head is so far in the cloud's. If EQ2 raiding is so "easy" then why are only a extremely small fraction of raiders past VS? Hrmmmm? Let me educate you on how raid's work and how SOE among other gaming companies keep their Subs. In all MMO's, First you have raid mobs that are extremely hard, and over time they slowly get nerfed. Eventually, even the most uncoordinated guilds get in and actually have a chance against the final mob because it has been nerfed to oblivion. Is this bad? No. These customers pay the same amount you did. You received an addition to your gigantic ego because you were "One of those UBER guilds" that could be as coordinated and had your first loot, and status of being the almighty number one. </p><p>The truth actually hurts nothing as you put it. The truth is, down the road even VP mob's will be nerfed. Its just a matter of time. Im sorry that EQ2 is played by human beings... maybe you can relate? Probably not though. Oh and just recently Blizzard had to unlock all the entrance requirements to the Black Temple (Their equivalent to VP). SOE is right behind WoW in model, we all know that.</p>

[Vydar]

Raiding alts just tripled in worth on Live Gamer <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[bryldan]

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><p>Speaking as someone who was in VP in December and having killed all the encounters in the game save Tangrin and 4 avatars, I still think my statement is true.  Venril is not hard, we almost always first pull him, yet we can still mess up and wipe to Nexona.  Nexona has A LOT more going on than Venril.  A guild who has pulled Venril for months upon end with no success isn't really going to stand a chance against Nexona even if they do beat Leviathan and get into VP.  So all this solves is what, people complaining that VP is too hard in a month or so?</p><p>Also Leviathan is pretty unintuitive so I don't see a lot of guilds who couldn't click statues and watch their detrimental (all you need to do to beat Venril) being able to beat him, like I said.</p><p>If you're complaining about one person messing the encounter up, well then don't even try Trakanon.  That is all I'll say on that subject.</p><p>As for your "they're making this change so guilds stuck on VS can advance to VP" - GUILDS STUCK ON VS DON'T NEED TO BE IN VP.  Period.  If you can't consistently kill VS despite the "luck" and "one person messing the encounter up" you're in for a world of dismay, disappoint and whining once you get into VP.  All this does is change where the roadblock is, and give the ability for lackluster raiders to focus their whining on VP mobs instead of VS.</p><p>I'm sorry but raiding in EQ2 isn't hard, if you can't clear T2 then you really have no business raiding the higher tiers.   Truth hurts.</p></blockquote>The guild i am in can beat VS (as long as theres no bugs and no one that messes the encounter up because it is his/her first time in there). The problem is that we are being forced to constantly go down there because this or that needed class isnt on tonight so we have to flag joe nobody who doesnt raid often just in case this happens again. That part of it SUCKED and was getting frustrating. As for always first pulling him wow you are lucky i guess because it seems one of his 5 bugs always hits us at least the first go around.

[Ahlana]

<cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite> <blockquote>Oh and just recently Blizzard had to unlock all the entrance requirements to the Black Temple (Their equivalent to VP). SOE is right behind WoW in model, we all know that.</blockquote><p>Actually they did this long before WoW ever existed in EQ1 it is a norm for SoE to change flagging requirements after the content has been out for a bit. Has nothing to do with the WoW model. It is just the way things roll. All challenges are eventually toned down for those that can not complete the original form. Planes of Power anyone? heh.</p><p>But I think it should be a percentage based system like EQ1 at 85% (one unflagged per group)</p>

[Gaige]

<cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>These customers pay the same amount you did. </blockquote><p>I wasn't aware the sub fee included ability to kill mobs, complete quests and get loot.  I thought <i>all</i> customers paid SOE for <i>access</i> to EQ2.  What they do with that access, as long as they abide by the EULA, is up to them.</p><p>Paying your $15 a month doesn't entitle you to anything, let alone raiding Veeshan's Peak.  I hate crafting, but I wanted to be a level 80 crafter.  So I had to craft, just like everyone other level 80 crafter.  Its not like getting to 80 crafting takes less and less combines as the expansion goes on, which is how your saying the game should be made.  I wish I could've waited until the last month of the expansion when it suddenly only takes 3 combines per level from 70 to 80.</p><p>SOE doesn't dumb down the rest of the game and cite subscription fees, so why should raiding be a part of this bizarre ritual.  There are already <i>numerous</i> easy, casually aimed raid targets in this expansion without nerfing the rest of them so the incompetent lowest common denominator of raiding, the "pick up raid" can clear VP.  It doesn't make sense.  Just as diehard crafters would be mad if everyone was suddenly a lvl 80 master crafter on the eve of expansion 5, I too would be mad if anyone who decides they need to kill Trakanon can, because SOE nerfs raid content "because sucky raiders pay as much as hardcore raiders!"</p><p>So in closing, that comment is one of the most ignorant ones made during a conversation like this.  Every single customer pays SOE for ACCESS to EQ2, what they DO with that ACCESS is their burden, not SOEs.</p>

[MyopicDuck]

<p>Noob guilds who can't kill VS don't deserve to to progress past him. Earn it, DO WORK.</p>

[Grimlux]

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>These customers pay the same amount you did. </blockquote><p>I wasn't aware the sub fee included ability to kill mobs, complete quests and get loot.  I thought <i>all</i> customers paid SOE for <i>access</i> to EQ2.  What they do with that access, as long as they abide by the EULA, is up to them.</p><p>Paying your $15 a month doesn't entitle you to anything, let alone raiding Veeshan's Peak.  I hate crafting, but I wanted to be a level 80 crafter.  So I had to craft, just like everyone other level 80 crafter.  Its not like getting to 80 crafting takes less and less combines as the expansion goes on, which is how your saying the game should be made.  I wish I could've waited until the last month of the expansion when it suddenly only takes 3 combines per level from 70 to 80.</p><p>SOE doesn't dumb down the rest of the game and cite subscription fees, so why should raiding be a part of this bizarre ritual.  There are already <i>numerous</i> easy, casually aimed raid targets in this expansion without nerfing the rest of them so the incompetent lowest common denominator of raiding, the "pick up raid" can clear VP.  It doesn't make sense.  Just as diehard crafters would be mad if everyone was suddenly a lvl 80 master crafter on the eve of expansion 5, I too would be mad if anyone who decides they need to kill Trakanon can, because SOE nerfs raid content "because sucky raiders pay as much as hardcore raiders!"</p><p>So in closing, that comment is one of the most ignorant ones made during a conversation like this.  Every single customer pays SOE for ACCESS to EQ2, what they DO with that ACCESS is their burden, not SOEs.</p></blockquote><p>Nice, Im personally glad SOE marketing care's more about people paying for subscriptions then the 2% of people who are VP flagged....Oooooooh yahhhh nice analogy on tradeskilling to. Lawl, and your calling my statements ignorant. You certainly win the ignorance award on that one. Everyone has access to Tradeskilling, not everyone has access to endgame content. Of course, you would probably be one of the more selfish raiders who prefer everyone but your "a team" to be stuck in Protector's realm or Venril Sathir's buggy lair. The reality of it is...People will cancel their accounts if they run out of content and if SOE doesnt accomodate the casual raiders then eventually the subscriptions will fade away. That's ok to you though, as long as your having fun right</p><p>Yes, SOE does dumb things down so that more casual guilds can raid endgame. Again, this concept must be extremely hard for you to grasp. It really is irrelevant what I think and extremly obvious and irrelvant of what you think. To bad your argument aren't legitimate at all. (me me me me me) SOE obviously feels that this is a concern, which is why the flag's are being adjusted. This is just the beginning friend... OH NO! *rolls eyes*</p>

[Lodrelhai]

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote><a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/db/quest.html?eq2quest=4578" target="_blank">Into the Bowels of the Beast</a> - part of the Fate of Norrath quest line.  Most of the raid progression is still required to do the storyline, but as the quest prior to this one requires killing either VS or the Overking, not both, people working on the series can progress it without struggling to slip in the extra raid.</blockquote><p>Is there a reason that non-raiders are doing the raid instance progression quest line?  All that quest does is lead raiders through the raid tiers leading up to Trakanon, I don't understand why a non-raider would be interested in it.</p><p>Also, as has been stated, the rest of the series involves killing every single named in VP and Trakanon, which no casual guild will be doing, so this change does nothing for your problem I'm afraid.</p></blockquote>Because it's also a lore storyline.  Fiddy Bobick is identified by the Void as a Person Of High Inportance (Obelisk of Lost Souls final room), and we meet him firsthand with his moppets in the Peacock Club.  This quest in particular tells us just what the Void agents are after in Kunark.  The eventual cumulation of the progression gives the Chelsith Stone, a calendar (or a portion of it) put together by the Shissar which predicts four major events (the Greenmist, the Shattering, and two as-yet-unidentified, though theories abound) and has, at its center, what appears to be either Kerafyrm or Veeshan being held in check by three other gods (predominant theory has it as Brell, Quellious, and an unknown third).  Mayong Mistmoore is also keenly interested in this calendar, though at current time he's allowing the adventurers who obtained it to keep it.  And there's still myriad other fine details, all being debated and brainstormed in the History and Lore forum.  In short, this is the next chapter in a story arc that began when the game launched and has been part of every expansion since.  And by making it the raid progression line, they have locked the vast majority of the players out of it COMPLETELY.While lore raiders have been wonderful about posting screenshots and giving summaries, many of us want a chance to experience these things firsthand.  And locking the story in raid progression is, to many of us, like someone producing a major movie with top actors, dedicated directors/producers, state-of-the-art special effects, and a tight storyline, then saying, "Tickets for this production are $1000 each.  For those of you who are interested but can't afford it, we've got some image stills and a plot synopsis available for $10.  Hope you enjoy the show."And yes, I'm aware that this will only give lore enthusiasts who are not in raiding guilds only one more quest in the line completed at best.  But it's one more quest than before, and I will take every shot at lore progress I can get (short of abandoning my guild to join a raiding guild 'cause they're my RL friends and family).  I was more than happy to solo the Peacock Club line grey, even knowing that I can't get the final quest finished.  I suppose if the level cap ever hits, say, 120, my guild might be able to get through this storyline with the 8 or so people we can manage to get on at one time.  Until then, anything they do which makes any part of the story accessible to more people is good by me.

[acctlc]

This does sound like a bandaid fix to the complaints many of us have for Venril.   So you're going to make this so that anyone with their Mythical update is going to have to pester and plead and beg their guild to wipe night after night on a buggy encounter???  Great idea..how bout just make the encounter work!  It worked better before you fixed it.  And its a simple fix really...all other random bugs aside, making the fatalisis come on an exact timer so folks can halt attack and not be feared to get a cure pot off...

[Pelda]

Flagging sucks and while I could see changing it to 50% or something this is better than it was.  *thumbs up*

[Kahling]

<p>We just killed Overking with 24 out of our 29 raiders in our force.  Next target is VS now.  I want us to kill him before we progress to Leviathan tbh.  The acomplishment we just made is made a little moot if it is 1 toon entry.</p><p>On the other hand it means we have to kill him again to get the other 5 flagged now.  This is a bit daft as well.</p><p>So if people are taking a consensus here I vote 18/24 for entry in to both Leviathan and VP.</p>

[Mr. Dawki]

<p>1) We can kill venril without an issue, but there is still an intense focus needed, now rather than having people earn their right, only one does? BS</p><p>2) You are going to need to get on the LAG ISSUE INSIDE OF VP BECAUSE THERE ARE GOING TO BE 20 MORE GUILDS PER SEVER IN THERE NOW</p>

[Windowlicker]

I'm glad to see it go.

[Warr]

This seem more like an easy fix to them not knowing how to fix Venril.And I'll agree with the majority, this is not a cool change. After finally killing the "Fixed" Venril after about 30 pulls to get the rest of our people flagged, its almost like a slap in the face.Fix venril for real, or make the requirement so that 80 or 90% of the raid has to be flagged to get anyone else in.

[Naughtesn]

I completely agree - just needing one person with access completely borks progression.  I am all for more accessibility, not for guilds that can't complete T2 but for guilds in VP that need to backflag to refill their ranks.50-75% with access makes more sense to me.EQ1 had a similar percentage-based system in a similar tiered flagging system.  The Deathtoll precedent in this game is different because the progression and storyline were much different.  And DT was necessary to complete the signature quest of the expansion.Honestly, if a change needs to be made with respect to access to the signature quest (i.e. mythical epic) in this expansion, it should be tweaking the difficulty of the mobs in VP (moving Druusk and Nexona later in the zone or actually scaling difficulty of the mobs logically with the zone).I don't think giving guilds a free pass (OK not free - but easier) into VP is the answer, because if a guild hasn't yet been able to kill VS (even with the bugginess of late) then there is absolutely no way that same guild is going to go anywhere on Nex or Dru.  So, IMO, an attempt to increase accessibility and remove frustration will do the opposite once that same guild gets a load of those two mobs.

[bryldan]

<cite>Krafoogoo@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I completely agree - just needing one person with access completely borks progression.  I am all for more accessibility, not for guilds that can't complete T2 but for guilds in VP that need to backflag to refill their ranks.50-75% with access makes more sense to me.EQ1 had a similar percentage-based system in a similar tiered flagging system.  The Deathtoll precedent in this game is different because the progression and storyline were much different.  And DT was necessary to complete the signature quest of the expansion.Honestly, if a change needs to be made with respect to access to the signature quest (i.e. mythical epic) in this expansion, it should be tweaking the difficulty of the mobs in VP (moving Druusk and Nexona later in the zone or actually scaling difficulty of the mobs logically with the zone).I don't think giving guilds a free pass (OK not free - but easier) into VP is the answer, because if a guild hasn't yet been able to kill VS (even with the bugginess of late) then there is absolutely no way that same guild is going to go anywhere on Nex or Dru.  So, IMO, an attempt to increase accessibility and remove frustration will do the opposite once that same guild gets a load of those two mobs.</blockquote>At least going into vp you will get to kill more than just two regular mobs and two of the named on the first floor are easy and will drop some very good loot. and you can pretty much do all of that in the same time as it takes to get down and kill vs(counting one or two deaths because of lag/statues etc.)

[Dasein]

Raid progression of the sort found in RoK was never a part of EQ2 prior to RoK. Even in KoS, only one person needed to be flagged for DT to gain access, and no other tier has had anything close to the sort of rigid flagging requirements. In short, RoK was a failed experiment, similar to eye farming in DoF, but SOE at least SOE is fixing their mistake this time rather than letting a flawed and unfun system persist.

[Grimlux]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>Raid progression of the sort found in RoK was never a part of EQ2 prior to RoK. Even in KoS, only one person needed to be flagged for DT to gain access, and no other tier has had anything close to the sort of rigid flagging requirements. In short, RoK was a failed experiment, similar to eye farming in DoF, but SOE at least SOE is fixing their mistake this time rather than letting a flawed and unfun system persist.</blockquote><p>Exactly. All instances that require flags should be removed. If SOE made progression span a difficulty range none of this would be an issue. It really shouldnt matter to raiders anyways. If people cant get past VS, Nex, and Dru whats the harm in trying? They're not gonna get their Mythical unless they buy the update from a already established VP guild. If SOE actually cared about "Guilds" selling myth updates, they would have also gotten rid of people selling loot rights in dungeons. Its really no different at all.</p><p>The only pseudo valid argument given is that if the floodgates are opened then guilds will complain about the progression and difficulty on some bosses in VP on these forums. Then again, that's not terribly valid considering there's usually a million page post on Venril Sathir weekly. If all flag's were removed, guilds would attempt and try various ways in VP and CoD. Some guilds will be very successful and some just wont. Everything will even out eventually.</p><p>This all reminds me of in WoW when they opened up TK and SSC to every raiding guild. You had your endgame raiders freaking out proclaiming that if they couldnt through the keying requirements they had no business in any of those zones. They also said it would be laughable to see the progress made by raiding guilds, proclaiming "They wont even make it past first boss". Funny thing is, raiding guilds did make it past first boss, and 2nd boss, and so on. There are just some encounters that certain guilds are stronger at doing. </p>

[Noaani]

<cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Everyone has access to Tradeskilling, not everyone has access to endgame content. </blockquote><p>I may be wrong, but I think you will find that if you look really really hard, Veeshans Peak takes up approsimatly 80.5 mb of your hard drive.</p><p>This is about what it would take on Gaiges hard drive, and is about what it takes on mine.</p><p>If this is true (please check it and get back to me), then you have had the same access to Veeshans Peak (and by extention, end game content) as anyone else playing this game.</p><p>What you chose to do with that us up to you.</p><p>Someone that has not killed all of T2 and T3 raid content, yet complaining about not having access to "end game content" is akin to a level 40 tradeskiller complaining that they do not have access to level 75 recipes. Of course they have access, they just need to do the work to get to level 75. Of course everyone has access to Veeshans peak, they just need to work to kill T2 and T3 raids.</p><p>That said, I don't really care about this change anyway. It will allow a few guilds that are not able to kill VS access to another mob they may or may not be able to kill. More importantly, it will mean hardcore guilds have less backflagging to do for new members and alts.</p>

[xpraetorianx]

Leviathan is easier than both Overking and Venril....  it requires you have knowledge of how to problem solve.

[Frigid2000]

<p>The only way you can lose to Venril is by beating yourselves. He's not hard at all.</p><p>With that said, I am completely against this change. There should always be levels and tiers and risk, time and effort = reward, in every MMO. I will tell you what is going to happen next. People will start complaining how hard Levi is. Then they'll either nerf Levi or change access into VP. Then what will happen next is people will start complaining how impossible Druushk and Nexona is. And then they'll be nerfed. </p><p>I have a great idea. Put everyone's mythicals on sale on a vendor in QH for 1 gold. Problem solved!</p>

[bryldan]

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><p>That said, I don't really care about this change anyway. It will allow a few guilds that are not able to kill VS access to another mob they may or may not be able to kill. More importantly, it will mean hardcore guilds have less backflagging to do for new members and alts.</p></blockquote>Ya this is the main point of this change. Those guilds who cannot beat VS will NOT be able to beat druush and nex who you have to beat for ANYONE to get there mythicals.They might be able to beat the first guy and lord ekron but that will be it since druushk and nex take coordination like VS those will be way tougher.

[xpraetorianx]

DEVS!!!If you are going to do this change, then please atleast make it so you need to clear all previous zones to enter VP.  I think that would be a easy compromise.  Instead of just Chamber being required for VP access, you will still HAVE to have killed ALL PREVIOUS ZONES to be able to enter.LEVI is no big deal, to keep the integrity of the progression aspect of the game, atleast do this for VP.  I have no problems with guilds zoning into LEVI as its a fun encounter, much more fun than Venril.  But guilds work hard to get into VP which is the ultimate reward for all that hardwork.  So please, then change the requirements for VP access to include both Overking and Venril Sathir.  KEEP THE INTEGRITY OF PROGRESSION INTACT!

[Uloff]

<p>This is a bit of a slap in the face for all the guilds who have put in the hard work to reflag <b>all </b>their members. Personally, I hate the idea that only one person needs to have Chamber of Destiny access to be able to zone the entire raid in. I hated it for Deathtoll and I hate the idea now. I think the best and fairest way would be to have a 75% rule to be able to zone in or as someone else suggested, you must have all flags to zone into VP.</p>

[Grimlux]

<cite>Flibble wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This is a bit of a slap in the face for all the guilds who have put in the hard work to reflag <b>all </b>their members. Personally, I hate the idea that only one person needs to have Chamber of Destiny access to be able to zone the entire raid in. I hated it for Deathtoll and I hate the idea now. I think the best and fairest way would be to have a 75% rule to be able to zone in or as someone else suggested, you must have all flags to zone into VP.</p></blockquote><p>Again, all your doing is keeping VP guilds in VP and leaving the majority of raiding guilds stuck on VS on VS. I highly doubt SOE is making this change to accomodate only the people in VP. QQ on though, you'll do amazing in the corporate world.</p><p>Also, can someone please tell me why the most vocal of VP raiders are the most selfish I have ever seen? Its like they think the game only has 30 people in it based around their guild. If they took away all the flags, guilds would fall in line of where they should be. Its hilarious, if they took away flagging no one would have even noticed. We worked soooo hard for "Progression".... as if guilds still stuck on VS didnt work just as hard given same amount of time. Some guilds have different strengths and weaknesses, and put up against a highly buggy mob doesnt help any either. This "75% should be flagged atleast" spouting only keeps guilds in VP in VP and everyone else out. Hmmmm not to many guilds in VP, whats SOE to do? O.o</p>

[Gaige]

<cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some guilds have different strengths and weaknesses, and put up against a highly buggy mob doesnt help any either. </blockquote><p>Some VP guilds are vocal because the "highly touted endgame raid instance" of RoK is about to become highly nerfed so the lowest common denominator can experience it.  If guilds are incapable of killing VS they are going to make no progress on Nexona.  That limits them to killing tons of trash for gems they won't be able to use and two named.  What do casual guilds do after a couple tries if they can't progress?  They complain until mobs are nerfed and instead of getting better they progress on a weaker version of the mob.  Which will turn VP into PR 2.0.</p>

[-Aonein-]

<cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flibble wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This is a bit of a slap in the face for all the guilds who have put in the hard work to reflag <b>all </b>their members. Personally, I hate the idea that only one person needs to have Chamber of Destiny access to be able to zone the entire raid in. I hated it for Deathtoll and I hate the idea now. I think the best and fairest way would be to have a 75% rule to be able to zone in or as someone else suggested, you must have all flags to zone into VP.</p></blockquote><p>Again, all your doing is keeping VP guilds in VP and leaving the majority of raiding guilds stuck on VS on VS. I highly doubt SOE is making this change to accomodate only the people in VP. QQ on though, you'll do amazing in the corporate world.</p><p>Also, can someone please tell me why the most vocal of VP raiders are the most selfish I have ever seen? Its like they think the game only has 30 people in it based around their guild. If they took away all the flags, guilds would fall in line of where they should be. Its hilarious, if they took away flagging no one would have even noticed. We worked soooo hard for "Progression".... as if guilds still stuck on VS didnt work just as hard given same amount of time. Some guilds have different strengths and weaknesses, and put up against a highly buggy mob doesnt help any either. This "75% should be flagged atleast" spouting only keeps guilds in VP in VP and everyone else out. Hmmmm not to many guilds in VP, whats SOE to do? O.o</p></blockquote> Once you get inside VP if you can beat Levithan, you will understand. But in all seriousness, I look at VS like a VP pratice run, if you have spent months attemtping to kill VS and haven't yet, its time to look at your strat and make a new one, cause honestly, you should of killed him by now and if you haven't, then forget all about VP until you can succesfully farm VS 100%

[-Aonein-]

<p> If I read this correctly and put more thought into it, no where does it say that 1 person needs to be flagged to flag a entire raid to enter VP. That being said yes I understand it states that 1 person needs to be flagged for VS to allow entery to CoD, but, I am pretty sure everyone trying to enter VP will still need the *silent* character flag recieved from killing VS to enter VP. Now if only one person has that flag, then everyone else attempting to zone into VP will get a knockback message.</p><p> If this is the case the only real reason I see them opening up Levithan this way is for more raid content for guilds who cannot get thier shizzle mcgrizzle together and beat VS, therefore throwing them a bone so to speak.</p><p> In the end Praetorate, Mythical is Mythical for a reason, think about it now.</p>

[Frigid2000]

<p>I couldn't agree more with what Gaige said above.</p><p>Here is what will happen.</p><p>"Omg, we can't kill VS. Nerf."</p><p>"Omg, we can't kill Levi. Nerf."</p><p>"Omg, its too hard to flag everyone for VP. Change it!."</p><p>"Omg, Druushk is too hard. Nerf."</p><p>And Sony will eventually do every single one of those things.</p>

[Dasein]

<cite>Cyque@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I couldn't agree more with what Gaige said above.</p><p>Here is what will happen.</p><p>"Omg, we can't kill VS. Nerf."</p><p>"Omg, we can't kill Levi. Nerf."</p><p>"Omg, its too hard to flag everyone for VP. Change it!."</p><p>"Omg, Druushk is too hard. Nerf."</p><p>And Sony will eventually do every single one of those things.</p></blockquote>What SOE has done is fixed broken or unfun game mechanics. If you consider that to be a nerf, I really do not care. There is good design and bad design, and if you tihnk moving towards good design is a bad thing for the game, then perhaps we're better off without you.However, remember that most upcoming games have little to no raiding for a reason. It's a dying form of gameplay, and threads like these are a prime reason why.

[xpraetorianx]

Venril works just fine

[Gaige]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>However, remember that most upcoming games have little to no raiding for a reason. </blockquote><p>What upcoming game has no raiding?  WoW is raid heavy, AoC is raid heavy.  So what game exactly coming down the pipes has "little to no raiding"?  Most successful MMOs in the fantasy genre have raiding btw.</p><p><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>There is good design and bad design, and if you tihnk moving towards good design is a bad thing for the game, then perhaps we're better off without you.</blockquote><p>SOE must really love you btw, always telling people to stop paying them money.</p>

[Grimlux]

<cite>xpraetorianx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Venril works just fine</blockquote>You should probably open your eyes then... Come down from the clouds and see that a majority of guilds are stuck behind VS.. "Working as intended..sometimes" would have been a far more appropriate thing to say. Obviously he's not working fine, unless your so elitist and everyone just sucks so bad compared to you... *laugh*

[-Aonein-]

<cite>xpraetorianx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Venril works just fine</blockquote><p> 100% agree, he works just fine for those willing to put enough time in to learn his *script*.</p><p> It's not raids that are a dieing form of gameplay, it's people who think they don't have the time to put the effort in and think they are simply entitled to it because they pay a monthly subscription fee, instant gratification crowd comes to mind. Refer to everything and anything Gaige said on the matter.</p><p> Again, for the reading impaired, if you cannot kill VS by now, you shouldn't be in VP at all, thinking that because this change will magically allow you to kill mobs in VP, stop being delusional, there is a reason why VP is the premiere raid dungeon, put some thought into it. For those who think they have the scripts for the mobs in VP, good luck reproducing it......its one thing knowing, its another thing having the skilled players to pull it off.</p><p> If I read this correctly and put more thought into it, no where does it say that 1 person needs to be flagged to flag a entire raid to enter VP. That being said yes I understand it states that 1 person needs to be flagged for VS to allow entery to CoD, but, I am pretty sure everyone trying to enter VP will still need the *silent* character flag recieved from killing VS to enter VP. Now if only one person has that flag, then everyone else attempting to zone into VP will get a knockback message. </p><p> If this is the case the only real reason I see them opening up Levithan this way is for more raid content for guilds who cannot get thier shizzle mcgrizzle together and beat VS, therefore throwing them a bone so to speak.</p>

[Grimlux]

<cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>xpraetorianx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Venril works just fine</blockquote><p>it's people who think they don't have the time to put the effort in and think they are simply entitled to it because they pay a monthly subscription fee</p></blockquote>Another failed response... My guild is great. People focus, we work well together. We raid Thu/Fri/Sat/Sun for 3 hours a night. Weve been working on this encounter for over a month. Do you think we suck? Do you think that time we put into isnt enough? Do all these guilds think they want stuff handed to them? Your delusional. We want a working encounter. Not a latency combined with luck fight.

[-Aonein-]

<cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>xpraetorianx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Venril works just fine</blockquote><p>it's people who think they don't have the time to put the effort in and think they are simply entitled to it because they pay a monthly subscription fee</p></blockquote>Another failed response... My guild is great. People focus, we work well together. We raid Thu/Fri/Sat/Sun for 3 hours a night. Weve been working on this encounter for over a month. Do you think we suck? Do you think that time we put into isnt enough? Do all these guilds think they want stuff handed to them? Your delusional. We want a working encounter. Not a latency combined with luck fight.</blockquote><p> You obviously have no clue what your even remotely talking about, he is even easier then he was before when he was bugged, he is fixed now, the fact you simply do not understand his script pretty much explains it all and are using the he is bugged still bs to cover how much you suck.</p><p> It is a simple fight really that requires everyones utmost attention for no more then 10 mins, then people can go back to watching TV, listening to radio etc etc while playing.....</p>

[Grimlux]

<cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> You obviously have no clue what your even remotely talking about, he is even easier then he was before when he was bugged, he is fixed now, the fact you simply do not understand his script pretty much explains it all and are using the he is bugged still bs to cover how much you suck.</p><p> It is a simple fight really that requires everyones utmost attention for no more then 10 mins, then people can go back to watching TV, listening to radio etc etc while playing.....</p></blockquote>Im sooooooo glad that SOE actually appeases its larger player base then the elitist minority of vocal and selfish individuals such as yourself. We work hard, as do MANY guilds on that encounter and it has failed us everytime. There are even guilds who have cleared it who struggle now. So yah I suck, your soooo perfect. I guess the majority of us suck... Can I call you god?

[-Aonein-]

<cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> You obviously have no clue what your even remotely talking about, he is even easier then he was before when he was bugged, he is fixed now, the fact you simply do not understand his script pretty much explains it all and are using the he is bugged still bs to cover how much you suck.</p><p> It is a simple fight really that requires everyones utmost attention for no more then 10 mins, then people can go back to watching TV, listening to radio etc etc while playing.....</p></blockquote>Im sooooooo glad that SOE actually appeases its larger player base then the elitist minority of vocal and selfish individuals such as yourself. We work hard, as do MANY guilds on that encounter and it has failed us everytime. There are even guilds who have cleared it who struggle now. So yah I suck, your soooo perfect. I guess the majority of us suck... Can I call you god?</blockquote><p> Step back and take a chill pill [Removed for Content], put some think into your thought, do you really think they are about to allow guilds full of people into VP based on one persons accomplishments? Why not just remove VS from the entire progression if that is the case. </p><p> If I had to take a wild stab in the dark, the only thing this will allow you to do is get into CoD for a loot pinata, it is a extra raid zone for you, you might just have to still kill VS for entry into VP, but patch notes clearly say that only one person needs access to CoD to zone the whole raid in, it mentions nothing about VP access.</p><p> Besides, again, because you seem to not understand english, if you cannot kill VS now, your guild will disband in VP and join guilds who can kill mobs in VP. This change will not help you, it will most likely hurt you and your guild because the frustration will be more then enough to tear you down, that and I fail to believe you raid so much, yet still cannot beat this encounter.....</p><p> You understand the concept of a Mythical item right?</p>

[bryldan]

<cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>xpraetorianx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Venril works just fine</blockquote><p>it's people who think they don't have the time to put the effort in and think they are simply entitled to it because they pay a monthly subscription fee</p></blockquote>Another failed response... My guild is great. People focus, we work well together. We raid Thu/Fri/Sat/Sun for 3 hours a night. Weve been working on this encounter for over a month. Do you think we suck? Do you think that time we put into isnt enough? Do all these guilds think they want stuff handed to them? Your delusional. We want a working encounter. Not a latency combined with luck fight.</blockquote><p> You obviously have no clue what your even remotely talking about, he is even easier then he was before when he was bugged, he is fixed now, the fact you simply do not understand his script pretty much explains it all and are using the he is bugged still bs to cover how much you suck.</p><p> It is a simple fight really that requires everyones utmost attention for no more then 10 mins, then people can go back to watching TV, listening to radio etc etc while playing.....</p></blockquote>Where have you been? Imho the mob is around the same difficulty before and after. Theres still tons of bugs with this mob and one person lagging kills the whole freaking raid. I have killed him before and after btw and I am VP flagged and honestly I was looking for some kind of way to get rid of the stupid flagging system. Now granted they probably went a lil far as I probably would have put it at a high % of the raid needing flagged this way if one of your main raid classes (say like you have no temp and the only temp on is someone who is not flagged) you are not forced to do something you really do not want to do.

[-Aonein-]

<cite>bryldan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>xpraetorianx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Venril works just fine</blockquote><p>it's people who think they don't have the time to put the effort in and think they are simply entitled to it because they pay a monthly subscription fee</p></blockquote>Another failed response... My guild is great. People focus, we work well together. We raid Thu/Fri/Sat/Sun for 3 hours a night. Weve been working on this encounter for over a month. Do you think we suck? Do you think that time we put into isnt enough? Do all these guilds think they want stuff handed to them? Your delusional. We want a working encounter. Not a latency combined with luck fight.</blockquote><p> You obviously have no clue what your even remotely talking about, he is even easier then he was before when he was bugged, he is fixed now, the fact you simply do not understand his script pretty much explains it all and are using the he is bugged still bs to cover how much you suck.</p><p> It is a simple fight really that requires everyones utmost attention for no more then 10 mins, then people can go back to watching TV, listening to radio etc etc while playing.....</p></blockquote>Where have you been? Imho the mob is around the same difficulty before and after. Theres still tons of bugs with this mob and one person lagging kills the whole freaking raid. I have killed him before and after btw and I am VP flagged and honestly I was looking for some kind of way to get rid of the stupid flagging system. Now granted they probably went a lil far as I probably would have put it at a high % of the raid needing flagged this way if one of your main raid classes (say like you have no temp and the only temp on is someone who is not flagged) you are not forced to do something you really do not want to do.</blockquote><p> Uh? He is far easier then his previous forms on so many levels its not funny, people can have 500 ping and still do this encounter np, we as a Australian based guild are full of people with 300+ pings.......we have no issues killing him.</p><p> List some bugs please, I am interested in knowing what you class as bugs with this guy.</p><p> Let me help you Praetorate:</p><ol><li>Postion is key</li><li>Blue outline around PC players can only mean?</li><li>Sprint is your friend</li><li>Pump tank</li><li>Look for phases......still clueless?</li><li>Bring 100+ Cure Noxious potions</li><li>Cube cube cube</li><li>Purple outline around VS can only mean?</li><li>Burn burn burn</li><li>What is my mana %?</li></ol><p> If you cannot dechipher that into the script, then sad pants for you.</p>

[Sorano]

<p>Seriously we did VS the other night with no cleric in the MT group, and a pally tanking. He's not that hard. The only roadblock I see is getting every single person in your raidforce to actually play properly. There can be no slackers on this encounter, and it's obviously hurting the more casual guilds in terms of progressing. I don't see how that justifies handing out T3 progression though. It's a slippery slope when you start catering to those who can't or won't put the effort in to beat an encounter. Leviathan is more forgiving of stuff ups than VS, which makes it an easier encounter. But how long before guilds start complaining that they can't place the orb because the tentacles keep smacking them around? How long before we see the same change to VP access? And not long after that I expect to see Nexona hit with the nerf bat. </p><p>Where does it stop?</p><p>There should be encounters in this game like VS or Nexona that are a challenge and require skill to defeat. It's the reason why we play, because of the feeling of accomplishment we get from beating something that is hard. When you make things easier you take some of the motivation to play out of the game. How long do you think people would keep playing, if mobs keeled over dead and dropped a chest as soon as you zoned in?</p>

[Frigid2000]

It won't ever stop Elyssa. Sony keeps continously appealing to the instant gratification crowd. Its just going to get worse and worse.

[Uloff]

<cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flibble wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This is a bit of a slap in the face for all the guilds who have put in the hard work to reflag <b>all </b>their members. Personally, I hate the idea that only one person needs to have Chamber of Destiny access to be able to zone the entire raid in. I hated it for Deathtoll and I hate the idea now. I think the best and fairest way would be to have a 75% rule to be able to zone in or as someone else suggested, you must have all flags to zone into VP.</p></blockquote><p>Again, all your doing is keeping VP guilds in VP and leaving the majority of raiding guilds stuck on VS on VS. I highly doubt SOE is making this change to accomodate only the people in VP. QQ on though, you'll do amazing in the corporate world.</p><p>Also, can someone please tell me why the most vocal of VP raiders are the most selfish I have ever seen? Its like they think the game only has 30 people in it based around their guild. If they took away all the flags, guilds would fall in line of where they should be. Its hilarious, if they took away flagging no one would have even noticed. We worked soooo hard for "Progression".... as if guilds still stuck on VS didnt work just as hard given same amount of time. Some guilds have different strengths and weaknesses, and put up against a highly buggy mob doesnt help any either. This "75% should be flagged atleast" spouting only keeps guilds in VP in VP and everyone else out. Hmmmm not to many guilds in VP, whats SOE to do? O.o</p></blockquote><p>So, the answer is to completely ignore a mob? Basically if this change goes through I guarantee that Venril's Lair and Kor-Sha (Overkings happy place) will be dead zones. Get 1 recruit who is VP or Chamber Flagged and goodbye to those "hard" zones. How many of you people were around in KoS and how many people really bothered to reflag their guild for Deathtoll access once the "core" group were flagged? How many guilds didn't bother with progression once they had 1 person who had the flag? (I don't have enough fingers for me to count just with the guilds I know of who recruited a toon who had access and insta DT access!)</p><p>Really, once you get to VP backflagging isn't a huge deal. Yes, Venril is a pain in the [I cannot control my vocabulary] sometimes (lag, people falling asleep etc) but Kor-Sha is an hour and a half zone clear if you're moving at a casual pace. I see this change as benefitting the VP guilds and not the T2 guilds - hence why the 75% rule means that as a guild you MUST have cleared VS and OK and if 18 people are in your raid with both flags you can "[Removed for Content]" a new recruit into Chamber and get him or her the VP flag thus saving time.</p><p>Oh, and Praetorate, my guild is a casual guild like yours. (3 nights a week). We spent about a month doing nothing but wiping on both Overking and Venril Sathir before things came together and we killed them. So don't give me this BS about this being an issue with casual guilds. We put in the hard work and if you're willing to put in the time so will you guys. If you don't then you need to examine WHY you're not and deal with it appropriately.</p><p>As for the "you'll do well in the corporate world" - I actually do very well in the corporate world. Step into my office! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[megasajan1]

<p>Before RoK came out....Throne,EH,MMiS for example...did you need to flag you entire Raid to Zone in? NO. Could every Casual - 1 Day per Week - Raidforce clear them? NO.</p><p>This "Flagging" was [Removed for Content] from the Beginning. Clear the Easier Zones to get to the Harder ones. Worked in T7,and noone complained about EH or the Throne (..i think)</p>

[Grimlux]

<cite>Flibble wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flibble wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This is a bit of a slap in the face for all the guilds who have put in the hard work to reflag <b>all </b>their members. Personally, I hate the idea that only one person needs to have Chamber of Destiny access to be able to zone the entire raid in. I hated it for Deathtoll and I hate the idea now. I think the best and fairest way would be to have a 75% rule to be able to zone in or as someone else suggested, you must have all flags to zone into VP.</p></blockquote><p>Again, all your doing is keeping VP guilds in VP and leaving the majority of raiding guilds stuck on VS on VS. I highly doubt SOE is making this change to accomodate only the people in VP. QQ on though, you'll do amazing in the corporate world.</p><p>Also, can someone please tell me why the most vocal of VP raiders are the most selfish I have ever seen? Its like they think the game only has 30 people in it based around their guild. If they took away all the flags, guilds would fall in line of where they should be. Its hilarious, if they took away flagging no one would have even noticed. We worked soooo hard for "Progression".... as if guilds still stuck on VS didnt work just as hard given same amount of time. Some guilds have different strengths and weaknesses, and put up against a highly buggy mob doesnt help any either. This "75% should be flagged atleast" spouting only keeps guilds in VP in VP and everyone else out. Hmmmm not to many guilds in VP, whats SOE to do? O.o</p></blockquote><p>So, the answer is to completely ignore a mob? Basically if this change goes through I guarantee that Venril's Lair and Kor-Sha (Overkings happy place) will be dead zones. Get 1 recruit who is VP or Chamber Flagged and goodbye to those "hard" zones. How many of you people were around in KoS and how many people really bothered to reflag their guild for Deathtoll access once the "core" group were flagged? How many guilds didn't bother with progression once they had 1 person who had the flag? (I don't have enough fingers for me to count just with the guilds I know of who recruited a toon who had access and insta DT access!)</p><p>Really, once you get to VP backflagging isn't a huge deal. Yes, Venril is a pain in the [I cannot control my vocabulary] sometimes (lag, people falling asleep etc) but Kor-Sha is an hour and a half zone clear if you're moving at a casual pace. I see this change as benefitting the VP guilds and not the T2 guilds - hence why the 75% rule means that as a guild you MUST have cleared VS and OK and if that many people are in your guild you can "[Removed for Content]" a new recruit into Chamber and get him or her the VP flag thus saving time.</p><p>Oh, and Praetorate, my guild is a casual guild like yours. (3 nights a week). We spent about a month doing nothing but wiping on both Overking and Venril Sathir before things came together and we killed them. So don't give me this BS about this being an issue with casual guilds. We put in the hard work and if you're willing to put in the time so will you guys. If you don't then you need to examine WHY you're not and deal with it appropriately.</p><p>As for the "you'll do well in the corporate world" - I actually do very well in the corporate world. Step into my office! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote><p>As I have stated about 900 milliondy thousand times... If they just made the VS encounter a Less then Latency and Luck oriented fight. None of this would even be an issue =/ This fix is just a bandaid towards the real problem. There is a problem with this fight, I am sorry you cant see beyond the pages and pages and pages of posts regarding this. If SOE made this encounter balanced and in line with T2 progression, none of this would even be hapenning right now.</p>

[Slips]

<p><span style="font-family: andale mono,times;">You know, I formed up a new guild back in October full of people who had never raided before outside of a weekend pickup.  We moved through VS after about a week of learning the encounter, for us, that's 4 days, 2-3 hours a night.  Maybe something is wrong with your leadership Praetorate if you can't get past this mob after A MONTH, and he's a  lot more routine now than he was before.  My only complaint about VS is the BS statue clicking , that is the only thing I see CONSISTENTLY screwing up on this encounter...Fatalasis lag has screwed us maybe once since changes a month or so ago.</span></p><p>Do I like the changes?  Not really, I'd rather have it be a majority percentage, 75%+ needs to be flagged for COD/VP.  Am I going to miss spending 1-2 nights reflagging new apps?  Hell no.</p>

[Uloff]

<cite>Sajan@Innovation wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Before RoK came out....Throne,EH,MMiS for example...did you need to flag you entire Raid to Zone in? NO. Could every Casual - 1 Day per Week - Raidforce clear them? NO.</p><p>This "Flagging" was [I cannot control my vocabulary] from the Beginning. Clear the Easier Zones to get to the Harder ones. Worked in T7,and noone complained about EH or the Throne (..i think)</p></blockquote><p>Personally, I prefer it the way it is now. Why? Well, progression is clearly set out for you. You simply cannot access higher tier zones without overcoming the ones before. This has two advantages in my eyes: 1) it trains players to work together which is what is required to progress and 2) it allows officers/leaders to set goals AND be able to track their progress and tweak where necessary. Just think about this for a few minutes. As officers/leaders when the question for "are we ready for VP?" is raised you know the answer is "yes" if you've cleared T1-3. In T7 the answer for "Are we ready for EH?" was "Possibly! Lets give it a go and try to kill a named or two!". When would you say you would be ready for EH? After you've killed Mistmoore? After you've killed the Armourer? After you've cleared Freethinkers? To me - the answer is muddy which is why I don't like it.</p><p><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Uloff]

<cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flibble wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flibble wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This is a bit of a slap in the face for all the guilds who have put in the hard work to reflag <b>all </b>their members. Personally, I hate the idea that only one person needs to have Chamber of Destiny access to be able to zone the entire raid in. I hated it for Deathtoll and I hate the idea now. I think the best and fairest way would be to have a 75% rule to be able to zone in or as someone else suggested, you must have all flags to zone into VP.</p></blockquote><p>Again, all your doing is keeping VP guilds in VP and leaving the majority of raiding guilds stuck on VS on VS. I highly doubt SOE is making this change to accomodate only the people in VP. QQ on though, you'll do amazing in the corporate world.</p><p>Also, can someone please tell me why the most vocal of VP raiders are the most selfish I have ever seen? Its like they think the game only has 30 people in it based around their guild. If they took away all the flags, guilds would fall in line of where they should be. Its hilarious, if they took away flagging no one would have even noticed. We worked soooo hard for "Progression".... as if guilds still stuck on VS didnt work just as hard given same amount of time. Some guilds have different strengths and weaknesses, and put up against a highly buggy mob doesnt help any either. This "75% should be flagged atleast" spouting only keeps guilds in VP in VP and everyone else out. Hmmmm not to many guilds in VP, whats SOE to do? O.o</p></blockquote><p>So, the answer is to completely ignore a mob? Basically if this change goes through I guarantee that Venril's Lair and Kor-Sha (Overkings happy place) will be dead zones. Get 1 recruit who is VP or Chamber Flagged and goodbye to those "hard" zones. How many of you people were around in KoS and how many people really bothered to reflag their guild for Deathtoll access once the "core" group were flagged? How many guilds didn't bother with progression once they had 1 person who had the flag? (I don't have enough fingers for me to count just with the guilds I know of who recruited a toon who had access and insta DT access!)</p><p>Really, once you get to VP backflagging isn't a huge deal. Yes, Venril is a pain in the [I cannot control my vocabulary] sometimes (lag, people falling asleep etc) but Kor-Sha is an hour and a half zone clear if you're moving at a casual pace. I see this change as benefitting the VP guilds and not the T2 guilds - hence why the 75% rule means that as a guild you MUST have cleared VS and OK and if that many people are in your guild you can "[Removed for Content]" a new recruit into Chamber and get him or her the VP flag thus saving time.</p><p>Oh, and Praetorate, my guild is a casual guild like yours. (3 nights a week). We spent about a month doing nothing but wiping on both Overking and Venril Sathir before things came together and we killed them. So don't give me this BS about this being an issue with casual guilds. We put in the hard work and if you're willing to put in the time so will you guys. If you don't then you need to examine WHY you're not and deal with it appropriately.</p><p>As for the "you'll do well in the corporate world" - I actually do very well in the corporate world. Step into my office! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote><p>As I have stated about 900 milliondy thousand times... If they just made the VS encounter a Less then Latency and Luck oriented fight. None of this would even be an issue =/ This fix is just a bandaid towards the real problem. There is a problem with this fight, I am sorry you cant see beyond the pages and pages and pages of posts regarding this. If SOE made this encounter balanced and in line with T2 progression, none of this would even be hapenning right now.</p></blockquote><p>If that is your true issue then this isn't the thread for that. This thread is a discussion for those who HAVE killed VS and OK - not people who are having troubles beating them. I suggest you post about VS being too hard in another thread and let this thread discuss the change the topic was created to discuss.</p>

[Gaige]

<cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>As I have stated about 900 milliondy thousand times... If they just made the VS encounter a Less then Latency and Luck oriented fight. None of this would even be an issue =/ </blockquote><p>An Australian guild can kill it, but you're still saying its latency issues?  My guild has players from various timezones and we kill it.  We have people from California, Canada, Texas, Georgia, Michigan and the UK.  Yet we still kill it.  So various timezones isn't a roadblock to this encounter like you stated previously.</p><p>As for luck... welcome to EQ2?  PLENTY of encounters are based around luck.  Is it lame?  Yes.  Is letting lazy people who refuse to work on Venril and be able to accomplish his script going to solve anything?  No.  You'll still have encounters that rely heavily on luck.</p><p>The point is for every player/guild posting about Venril being bugged there is at least one guild killing him.  So those posts prove nothing, except that the majority of players have entitlement issues and refuse to put any effort at all into anything when they know they can just post a few whines and SOE will come swooping in to save them.  </p><p>That is why heroic zones drop fabled, why solo quests drop fabled and why even though the vast majority of raid content in this expansion was easymode casual (All of T1, the Dominus, Overking, Leviathan, half of Shard of Hate) we still see SOE nerfing stuff left and right because the entitlement we play 12 hours a week community is never satisfied with what they have, they want what everyone else has; even though they refuse to put forth the effort that those in VP put forth.</p><p>Raiding is not going away, and thinking so is just silly.  AoC has 8 raid instances at launch, for example.</p>

[shadowscale]

i would have made this an eather or on overking or venril like the lore quests suggests. rather then lowering the number of flaged people needed entirely.

[xpraetorianx]

<cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>xpraetorianx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Venril works just fine</blockquote>You should probably open your eyes then... Come down from the clouds and see that a majority of guilds are stuck behind VS.. "Working as intended..sometimes" would have been a far more appropriate thing to say. Obviously he's not working fine, unless your so elitist and everyone just sucks so bad compared to you... *laugh*</blockquote>Thats your excuse for everything Praetorate.... "get off your high horse", "come down from the clouds"  ..ect ect, stop instigating arguments by calling other people "self righteous" because it really is getting old.Why dont you stop the pity party and take a look at the members of your raid force, it could never be the players right?  Of course not... some people want a "Staples" Easy button i suppose.  I guess when people say they messed up they right away call lag... its a cop out bud.  Never believe the lag excuse.

[-Aonein-]

<p> We just killed VS on the 3rd pull backflagging some people..........so I really do not know what to say and also we are a fully Australian guild with everyone have 300+ ping.......</p><p> Put more concentration into the fight and learn the script correctly is all I can say.</p>

[Turb]

<p>This change is really silly.   It simply destroys the whole point of progression in raiding in RoK.</p><p>Venril isn't hard *if* the whole raid force pays attention.   Noone can ninja afk or slack, which makes the fight so much more rewarding.  It requires a team of raiders, not a bunch of slackers, to win the zone.    You need to watch power, ideally have group cures in each group (or bring potions), and watch your detrimental effects window carefully.</p><p>Overking is a fantastic fight, very well designed and a lot of fun.    It teaches you the sort of coordination required for Nexona.</p><p>What next?   Just one player flagged for VP access?</p><p>All this is going to do is push the bottleck to Druushk and Nexona, and Nexona takes way more coordination than Venril.   Of course, I guess she'll be nerfed soon.</p><p>And once you're past Nexona the rest of VP is easymode (e.g. we first pulled Phara Dar, [Removed for Content]? where's the challenge?), so we can also expect a lot of mythicals to people who can soon be zoned into VP (even without access themselves) and then be CoTH'd to the easymode mob in wing 2 or 3.</p>

[Pelda]

Really it doesn't matter if only 1 person is required anymore.  In the end every guild will have to kill OK and Venril anyway.  They both drop good items for one plus many classes need those mobs for their Epic updates.  So in the end the guilds will still have to clear those zones and ultimately get a full raid flagged.  This just prevents the block the venril currently is for those that have beaten him before and their "fix" is preventing backflagging.  Luck shouldn't be a reason for beating a mob and thats what is required for Venril.

[SinIsLaw]

I am sure if you change this from 100% to 1 person, you ruin "the feeling of achievement" for a lot of guilds & players who only have reached VP in the last two month! Guilds who have been in VP, or say have been clearing VP for ages, will not see this as a big issue. If SoE can manage the freaking lag, then this change could be even welcome, as it makes selling loot & Mythical updates much easier for them, or buying Gems from these new VP guilds, since this is likely the only thing they can get out of VP!Just because you are in VP doesnt mean u can clear it or progress past the 1st wing! Someone mentioned T7, just remember how many guilds were unable to progress to the 2nd floor, let alone the 3rd floor ...

[simpwrx02]

<p>All this crazy talk about cload and horses. my guild raids 4 nights a week 3 hours a night, not really what you woudl call hardcore, and yes it took a bit of time to vill VS the first time yup before the fix and we probably wiped 2 or so times per night tryign him from toxic infusion/fatalisis having a .5 second delay, yup that sucked and was bugged, Now there is what a guarenteed 6 seconds between the 2, not really an issue as long as your healers aren't nuking and every one has a few nox pots just incase.  Yes the statues do still bug randomly, but as of right now our only major issue killing him is we may have some one tokin it up or something and not payign full attention wipe us, once maybee bad luck twice well he gets talked to and after that normally it is not an issue.  But since the update if we wipe to VS it is either our fault, or a statue bug maybe 10% of the time.  SO if you are failing because your members can't look at a determienatl effects window or have issues seeing numbers like 30 and 60, well have them run up hit VS and then go stand at zone in, this way that can fully focus on only thier power and have no other thought at all.</p><p>Back on topic I personally never liked 100% flagging, just because gettign new peeps flagged could be a pain, however a 50 or 75% flagging woudl take care of this for sure, but if it stays at 1 person I may just make me some plat selling my flagging ability to other guilds/want to be PuRs woot more platz for me ftw.</p>

[DMIstar]

<p>Realy whats the point of flags? other Then Tunneling Guilds to a formed path... and Maybe Forceing replay value for backflagging ... but then again why do you need to force replay value on new content ? Is it that bad?</p><p> In the end, It comes upto being an annoyance, both with present terms and Later down the line.. which only means in the end, the developers are going to have to spend the time to remove the flags, in hopes that the content will be used... prime Example EQ... They finally did away with most of all the old flags, why? cause its dead content literally. VP was the first, Nobody touched it.. they revamped and it became the same thing.. PoP all flags are gone now. Even Vex thal...</p><p> Lets come to this game... Even stuff in this game that is locked out, people are not going to spend the time on.. I think poets palace maybe still used.. I havent been there, Silent City stuff? How about Death toll ? How long will take before we remove the stuff on that, just so people will use it, other then grind right by it lol. </p>

[Trojenn]

<p>They will not be able to restrict the numbers of how many people being flagged in a raid to zone in. 18/24  12/24  . The reason behind this is because it would require way to much change in the game engine. Even if they stated that 18/24 had to be flagged to get in, all you would hace to do is drop raid and take one person in at a time with. and then just reform once you are in zone. For them to put restrictions and tags on the number of flagged to characters to zone in would serirously take alot of programming change so, either its 1 or nothing.</p>

[bryldan]

<cite>121 dirtybird wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>They will not be able to restrict the numbers of how many people being flagged in a raid to zone in. 18/24  12/24  . The reason behind this is because it would require way to much change in the game engine. Even if they stated that 18/24 had to be flagged to get in, all you would hace to do is drop raid and take one person in at a time with. and then just reform once you are in zone. For them to put restrictions and tags on the number of flagged to characters to zone in would serirously take alot of programming change so, either its 1 or nothing.</p></blockquote>Without knowing exactly how their code is written i very well doubt this would be the case. While yes no matter what they would do they could effectively get around it by doing what you explained it still would be a huge hassle and they would still need x amount of ppl flagged already.

[Moorefallen]

<p>IMO this has provided a more stable raid enviroment for the game as a whole and is a good change.</p><p>Two thumbs up!</p>

[Ravaan]

The only people this will effect is those with entitlement issues. those that think they are the "high society" of EQ2 and anyone not in that society doesn't belong in thier playground.

[Grimlux]

<cite>121 dirtybird wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>They will not be able to restrict the numbers of how many people being flagged in a raid to zone in. 18/24  12/24  . The reason behind this is because it would require way to much change in the game engine. Even if they stated that 18/24 had to be flagged to get in, all you would hace to do is drop raid and take one person in at a time with. and then just reform once you are in zone. For them to put restrictions and tags on the number of flagged to characters to zone in would serirously take alot of programming change so, either its 1 or nothing.</p></blockquote><p>I never thought of that. Good thinking <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   If a zone is persistent what is to stop the person with access just zoning in and out dragging people in. GOOD! Now this rediculous argument of "I'd be happy with % this and that" can end.</p>

[Thay]

<cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>xpraetorianx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Venril works just fine</blockquote><p>it's people who think they don't have the time to put the effort in and think they are simply entitled to it because they pay a monthly subscription fee</p></blockquote>Another failed response... My guild is great. People focus, we work well together. We raid Thu/Fri/Sat/Sun for 3 hours a night. Weve been working on this encounter for over a month. Do you think we suck? Do you think that time we put into isnt enough? Do all these guilds think they want stuff handed to them? Your delusional. We want a working encounter. Not a latency combined with luck fight.</blockquote><p>It works as is. There is no latency issue and there certainly isn't a luck issue involved.</p><p>If your guild can focus like a laser for 10 minutes, you'd have beaten this mob months ago and moved on. I take that back...it doesn't even need to be focused like a laser...more like a Mag-Lite.</p><p>Simply watch your detrimental window and COMMUNICATE. That's all that is required for you to progress.</p><p>So...I have an answer for your first question, and it is, "Yes." I'm not saying it to be mean-spirited at all. Please do not take it that way. That fight is a 10 minute fight at most that is currently doable on the 1st pull, and certainly within 2-3 pulls.</p>

[Druid03]

<cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>121 dirtybird wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>They will not be able to restrict the numbers of how many people being flagged in a raid to zone in. 18/24  12/24  . The reason behind this is because it would require way to much change in the game engine. Even if they stated that 18/24 had to be flagged to get in, all you would hace to do is drop raid and take one person in at a time with. and then just reform once you are in zone. For them to put restrictions and tags on the number of flagged to characters to zone in would serirously take alot of programming change so, either its 1 or nothing.</p></blockquote><p>I never thought of that. Good thinking <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />   If a zone is persistent what is to stop the person with access just zoning in and out dragging people in. GOOD! Now this rediculous argument of "I'd be happy with % this and that" can end.</p></blockquote>yes cuz the "i cant focus for 10 minutes and kill VS so let me bypass it to the next tier" argument is not ridiculous...12 flagged characters required to zone in is still 12 flagged characters, doesnt matter if you try to zone in two people at a time or not....you will simply not meet the requirements

[Trojenn]

<cite>Druid03 wrote:</cite><blockquote>12 flagged characters required to zone in is still 12 flagged characters, <b>doesnt matter if you try to zone in two people at a time or not</b>....<b>you will simply not meet the requirements</b></blockquote><p>This is not how the game mechanics work, They would have to do a few major things to make this work..</p><p>1: They would have to make it a minimum of a 24 person zone in. No more no less than 24 people. </p><p>2: It would have to be made as a one person zones all in. </p><p>3: Were else have you heard of  a zone that required X amount of people to zone in before the rest could zone in from lack of access.</p><p>They would have recode the zone so that only 24 people could enter and you can only enter if you have 24 people, and this mechanic is not in game. There is a mechanic in game that requires you to be in a group to enter but it can be only a 2 person grp. So think about past zones and situations before spouting out again without thinking about what your saying. </p><p>Thank you come again.</p><p>/</p>

[Druid03]

i never said it workd like this or if it would be easy to implement, im not a coder....but it is a way of doing it

[xpraetorianx]

I will say this,  your [Removed for Content] right there is entitlement issues.  Raiding is not a "given".  It takes hard work and alot of coordination to get to that point in the game... after all that hard work.. recruiting..getting players together, to work together, to be on the same page as everyone.  It is alot of [Removed for Content] work compared to the casual guild on the server.  Raiders play for keeps.  Thats the difference between the two play styles.  SOE used to just NERF the encounters just prior to a new expansion being released which was fine with most people.  But now, its only May, 6 months to go on expansion and the major zone changes are already coming.  Raiders pride themselves on being able to enter and complete content that alot of the server will never see or do.  I mean heck, half of the 'new' raiders in ROK never even saw Wuoshi before in alot of guilds.So yes, there is an entitlement factor in the game, there always will be.  As with any MMO, if you think any other way your fooling yourself.  Some people pay their fees to group and quest... some on other hand work even harder to get to that last step in the current peak of the game.There is nothing wrong with it, but when a change happens that undermines all the effort the "more dedicated" players put forth...and dont get all uppity when i say "more dedicated" because raiders are... i dare you to find people more intune with the game mechanics wise, commuity-wise, or even time-wise.  So yes, the raiders are the most dedicated community in EQ2, and SOE should recognize that.But like i said, its not a bad thing, just two different aspects from two different play styles.

[Xtrinct]

<cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>xpraetorianx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Venril works just fine</blockquote>You should probably open your eyes then... Come down from the clouds and see that a majority of guilds are stuck behind VS.. "Working as intended..sometimes" would have been a far more appropriate thing to say. Obviously he's not working fine, unless your so elitist and everyone just sucks so bad compared to you... *laugh*</blockquote><p>I would love to see this majority you keep referring to in every post you write. Spit it out man...say your guild sucks and you can't kill VS and want a free pass. Maybe it is YOU who should come out of the clouds. VS is NOT HARD. He's annoying but (read closely) NOT HARD.</p><p>You seem content on puting down all the raiding folks (alot more than 2% of the population you claim) but yet you expect to see just as much of the game they do without spending the MONTHS working on content.</p><p>Enjoy your free pass to VP. I'm sure you'll be back here crying about Nexona and Druushk soon.</p>

[Vydar]

<cite>Xtrinct wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>xpraetorianx wrote:</cite><blockquote>Venril works just fine</blockquote>You should probably open your eyes then... Come down from the clouds and see that a majority of guilds are stuck behind VS.. "Working as intended..sometimes" would have been a far more appropriate thing to say. Obviously he's not working fine, unless your so elitist and everyone just sucks so bad compared to you... *laugh*</blockquote><p>I would love to see this majority you keep referring to in every post you write. Spit it out man...say your guild sucks and you can't kill VS and want a free pass. Maybe it is YOU who should come out of the clouds. VS is NOT HARD. He's annoying but (read closely) NOT HARD.</p><p>You seem content on puting down all the raiding folks (alot more than 2% of the population you claim) but yet you expect to see just as much of the game they do without spending the MONTHS working on content.</p><p>Enjoy your free pass to VP. I'm sure you'll be back here crying about Nexona and Druushk soon.</p></blockquote>I definitely think the level of difficulty of encounters is totally screwed up in this expansion.Venril and Overking, much more difficult than Leviathan, who's just a joke on the way to VP.  Shard of Hate, easier encounters than redoing T7 content and better drops than VP mobs.  We kill the first 3 SoH names with 8 people.  Kluzen, Ekron, insanely easy.  Nexona and Druushk, hardest mobs in the zone up to Trak (and I've heard it argued that Nexona is tougher than Trak.) This stuff is unmotivating for a lot of people.  Making a properly scaling difficulty would be much more welcome than allowing people to just skip Venril.  Fix Venril, don't just let people pretend he doesn't exist after he's been killed once.I can see it now... Channel 80... Paying 100p for CoD access so we can skip Venril, PST. 

[Trojenn]

<p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Times New Roman;">I will give it that VS and OK are scaled way out of proportion for a T2 raid mob, the first wing of VP is easy up too Druusk, and the rest is cake up till Nexona, and then Trak is the Hardest but the other names in VP are a cake walk, if you can clear PR then you can easily IMO kill the first two mobs in VP. </span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Times New Roman;">But back to scailing, VS and OK are a little tuff for T2, I honestly think they should be nerfed slightly. Leviathen takes nothing more than about 6-7 People who can solo heroics quickly and without dieing. Pawbuster is easy once you discover that if you wait 5 seconds after his hammer drops to taunt he is alot .. alot... easier to manage. And as far as SoH is considered, the mobs here were designed so that different Raid Forces could come in and kill stuff. The mobs are set up with tiers, the first and easiest mob, the one by the mender, would be considered a tier 1 mob, and Demetriuos Crane is also consider a T1 mob, then Master P`Tasa would be your Tier 2 and the sisters a T3 and the Maestro T4 and Byzola T5. If you consider how the difficulty level of each mob progresses it makes complete sense. K`pol and Demetrious are easy and fairly strate up burns with little to no strat, Master P needs a little strat and cooperation. The sisters require a fairly decent strat and good listening and focus. the Maestro is a pain in the [Removed for Content] and we have yet to Byzola.</span></p>

[bryldan]

From what I can tell it did not make it in the update notes not sure if they put it in or not anyways without documentation in the update notes or I am just not seeing it for some reason.

[Druid03]

yeah it wasnt on the patch notes but it did go live, i took a non T3 flagged character to me with JW and he zoned us ini still think its a bad change, too early for an easy button on progression

[quasigenx]

No one knows how big a change % access would be. It might not be the easiest route, but it's the correct solution. Bad change, IMO. There is no excuse for the devs making a lazy change to cater to lazy players who don't want to learn an encounter. Also, I suggest those lazy players look up the definition of the word "entitlement", which they keep applying to raiders. We're not the ones who think we're entitled to more loot for less work!

[KBern]

And now to start the countdown on the "OMG Leviathon is bugged!!1!" posts that are sure to pop up.

[Lantis]

I really hope they didn't mean for this change to go live.  If it was meant to go live and was just missed from the GU45 release notes, then this is profoundly... bad.What I keep wondering is what would be the reason behind such a change?a) To allow more people to reach VP?  In that case, they have just taken away the sense of accomplishment, and broken the whole concept of "raid progression" that was an important part of RoK raiding.  Now they just need to get a greenmist orb, kill Levi, and then onto VP.  If they feel that not enough people get the chance to reach VP then just adjust some of the progression raids to be slightly easier - no need to allow everyone to totally bypass it.b) To let people around a bugged VS encounter: in that case, just fix the encounter!  (Not that it's impossible to do anyway, we have taken it down since the last re-re-fix).c) To ease on the backflagging pain: in that case this is a knee jerk reaction.  Making it a percentage would be a sensible thing to do: that way a guild (or raiding alliance) who has done it once would have no problem having, like, 75% of flagged people, bringing in alts/recruitsRight now thanks to this change, anyone could get an alt flagged, and start selling Levi access to other guilds who can't take VS down.  That would throw away most of the whole progression design.

[-Aonein-]

<cite>quasigenx wrote:</cite><blockquote>No one knows how big a change % access would be. It might not be the easiest route, but it's the correct solution.Bad change, IMO. There is no excuse for the devs making a lazy change to cater to lazy players who don't want to learn an encounter.Also, I suggest those lazy players look up the definition of the word "entitlement", which they keep applying to raiders. We're not the ones who think we're entitled to more loot for less work!</blockquote><p>  seriously doubt it would be hard to implement, they already have the exsisting code from EQ1 when it used to require a certain % of flagged people to enter a zone to zone the unflagged inside also, and I seriously doubt it has changed all that much code wise.</p><p> That and they used to have 12 player raid instances here, not sure if they still exsist.</p><p> If they can do it for 1 player, they can easily do a check for HALF (12) or THREE QUARTERS (1<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> of the raid. What is the difference between the client looking at 1 persons compaired to 12, 18 or 24? Also one last thing, the way it works of a percentage is once there is the require'd amount of flagged people inside the zone, the lock out lifts providing your in that raid, its really not a hard change imho, they have done it before, im sure they are not noobs to doing it again.</p>

[-Aonein-]

<cite>Lantis@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I really hope they didn't mean for this change to go live.  If it was meant to go live and was just missed from the GU45 release notes, then this is profoundly... bad.What I keep wondering is what would be the reason behind such a change?a) To allow more people to reach VP?  In that case, they have just taken away the sense of accomplishment, and broken the whole concept of "raid progression" that was an important part of RoK raiding.  Now they just need to get a greenmist orb, kill Levi, and then onto VP.  If they feel that not enough people get the chance to reach VP then just adjust some of the progression raids to be slightly easier - no need to allow everyone to totally bypass it.b) To let people around a bugged VS encounter: in that case, just fix the encounter!  (Not that it's impossible to do anyway, we have taken it down since the last re-re-fix).c) To ease on the backflagging pain: in that case this is a knee jerk reaction.  Making it a percentage would be a sensible thing to do: that way a guild (or raiding alliance) who has done it once would have no problem having, like, 75% of flagged people, bringing in alts/recruitsRight now thanks to this change, anyone could get an alt flagged, and start selling Levi access to other guilds who can't take VS down.  That would throw away most of the whole progression design.</blockquote><p> A) True they have taken that away, but for people with entitlement issues they do not understand the word accomplisment.</p><p> B) VS is not bugged, we killed him on the 3rd pull last night.......he is easly doable when people use what is called concentration. We are also a full Australian guild which means you can just bury the lag bs excuse right now, cause all of our pings down under while raiding is 300+.</p><p> C) Yes I agree.</p><p> In the end though, they still have to kill VS for mythical updates, so they are only shotting themselves in the foot for not putting the effort into killing him when down the road and said casual guilds wants to deny thier guildies of a VS kill because they simple wont put in the time to pull it off, they will lose players due to them going to guilds who can kill him and have the script and fight down pat from executing the weeks on end to get it right.</p><p> This change will hurt casual guilds more then it will do it good, the accomplishment of this encoutner is what keeps guilds together and going strong, especially casual ones who strive hard to over come it, this will do nothing but break them up.</p>

[Frigid2000]

<p>The countdown won't be Levi is bugged.</p><p>The countdown will be to all the posts crying that Levi needs a nerf. </p><p>I would expect that sometime before GU47.</p>

[KBern]

<cite>Cyque@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The countdown won't be Levi is bugged.</p><p>The countdown will be to all the posts crying that Levi needs a nerf. </p><p>I would expect that sometime before GU47.</p></blockquote>Yeah I know, but "bug" is the new term to stand for "We cannot beat this mob!".

[simpwrx02]

Why even kill Levi you only need 1 with acess to get into VP now......

[Rayche]

LOL... just LOLThis thread is funny.Leviathan will keep progression in line just fine.Venril Sathir is broken. Not impossible, but not working as intended and definitely not in line with Overking difficulty.I would have preffered a VS fix, but either way, it doesn't take anything away from anyone. The expansion has been out for 6 months. That's about as long in EQ1 as we had Plane of Valor, Halls of Honor, Bastion of Thunder etc without having all the rest of the population in there back in the POP era. Your sense of accomplishment doesn't buy you anything. You did it first. Good job. End of story. Pretty good odds you've about farmed that place out and have at least 1 Alt with a Mythical. That's your reward.. move on.

[Turb]

<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why even kill Levi you only need 1 with acess to get into VP now......</blockquote>Really? <img src="/smilies/47941865eb7bbc2a777305b46cc059a2.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Windowlicker]

Amazing. People *still* need to kill VS, I'm not sure if you "Hardcore raiders" have thought this through.  How exactly do you expect people are going to receive correct Mythical updates if they don't kill him?Being in CoD is going to do you a fat lot of good if a handful of your raidforce is missing the VS update they require.The flagging is stupid, and isn't needed with the requirements on mythicals.  There will always be a reason to *need* to take him down regardless of flagging.

[-Aonein-]

<cite>Cometus@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>LOL... just LOLThis thread is funny.Leviathan will keep progression in line just fine.Venril Sathir is broken. Not impossible, but not working as intended and definitely not in line with Overking difficulty.I would have preffered a VS fix, but either way, it doesn't take anything away from anyone. The expansion has been out for 6 months. That's about as long in EQ1 as we had Plane of Valor, Halls of Honor, Bastion of Thunder etc without having all the rest of the population in there back in the POP era. Your sense of accomplishment doesn't buy you anything. You did it first. Good job. End of story. Pretty good odds you've about farmed that place out and have at least 1 Alt with a Mythical. That's your reward.. move on.</blockquote><p> Thats right and another 6 months+ to go before a new expasion is released. You realize that your comparison to EQ1 is moot because they didnt drop the lock out for Plane of Time until the following expasion was released which was Gates of Discord. The zones you mention were nothing more then just, zones, open, contested zones where you could farm patterns for group based content.</p><p> What do you find funny? The fact that when guilds see how stupidly easy Levithan really is compaired to VS and the guild crumbles because of the difficulty in VP? You find this funny? Or maybe the fact that people still have to kill VS for mythical updates, so ethier way, all SoE has done is let the casual guilds into VP to take a look at the zone, because if you aren't killing VS, and have only just killed OK in the last month, you want even be able to kill the 2 easy names on the first wing in VP let alone Nex and Druushk and then what? They will be broken encounters too even after all these so called *hard core* guilds have been farming them on a weekly basis for the last 4 months?!?!? Flawed logic?</p><p> Let me explain to you how this works in VP to drown out some light of hope you think SoE is giving you.</p><p> 1) It takes a full VP rotation to get a full VP armor set, assuming you get all the patterns one class needs on that one run. VP rotation for guilds who clear it are able to reset thier timers every 5 days, where as most guilds going in there won't be doing this, unless they want to just farm the first 2 named mobs in there, which by the way do not give mythical updates OR patterns.</p><p> 2) You then need enough gems to go with those patterns which generally takes a few runs itself.</p><p> Now lets not mention that not very *organized* guilds who can't kill VS or understand his script due to people not being able to stare at the screen for longer then a 10 min period, need to learn the strat on Nexona and Druushk before they even proceed in VP, you do the math here on time spent vs reward........?</p><p> I don't think alot of people like yourself see how bad this change is, not for the more organized guilds, but bad for the not so organized guilds, why? Simple, because everyone in any guild has more play time then others, do you really think that people will hang about in your not so organized guild for the next year hoping that you fluke a kill on VS cause of lack of concentration so they can get thier mythical updates? All your guild becomes from changes like this is a *feeder* guild to more organized guilds who get stuff done at thier intended set challenge in thier correct tier, once a expasion comes out and you green that content out, you do nothing but trivilize it and therefore create a shallow victory with less accomplishment.</p><p> I can understand the guilds who aren't so organized wanting to see inside VP, fair enough, everyone is curious, but simply put, if you cannot kill VS now, you wont be killing much besides trash in VP, I guess you can use your 5 day lock out to farm plenty of gems so when the time comes and you have farmed Tier 1,2 and 3 enough to actually start progressing in VP, you won't have to spend as much time farming gems if any.....</p><p> This post here is the best possible explained post with no exageration and almost all truth on how SoE gives and gives and gives but still is not enough: </p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=15&topic_id=417211�" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...417211?</a></p><hr />Gaige wrote: <p>Instanced != casual.</p><p>They've already tried to help casual raiders in instances by making them all persistant.  To some, like the poster above me with huge entitlement issues, that isn't enough.</p><p>They've already tried to help casual raiders by giving them 3 entire raid zones, 4 contested mobs and 2 x2s in KJ that all have their difficulty aligned so that casual players have easy content to raid a few days a week (which is more than enough for a true casual raider).  To some, even that isn't enough.</p><p>They've already tried to help casual raiders by providing really good gear in heroic instances and a fabled epic reward that is doable entirely w/o a raid, which for most classes is the best weapon in the game outside of their mythical.  To some, even that isn't enough.</p><p>No, to some "casual" players everything must be made immediately accessible to them or else its branded with the "hardcore" moniker to forever be stereotyped and whined about because some sort of roadblock is blocking the casual player from said content.</p><p>What I find amazing is that all these guilds who raid 3 days a week are worried about things in VP when most aren't even VP flagged.  They're worried about more raid targets being made available to them when they're not even killing all the ones they already have available during the week due to their limited raid time.</p><p>Just because SOE chooses to instance something, that doesn't mean its intended for the mean skilled average playtime raider.  That simply means its instanced.  Wuoshi, Taranix, Darathar, Djinn Master.  You know what all those mobs have in common?  They're instanced.  They were also, during their peak, pretty hard.  Djinn Master was so insanely hard only five guilds beat him during his expansion.</p><p>Hardcore guilds having the minority of raid content isn't killing this game.  What is killing this game is a lack of focus.  If we objectively take a look at RoK it is the most casual, solo friendly, and accessible of the expansions yet.  You can level from 70 to 80 entirely solo in RoK, while getting good rewards and coin.  You can do heroic instances that drop insanely nice loot for the difficulty/lockout once you've reached cap.  You can do solo quests that give amazing fabled rewards like the Thuuga series.  You can form a pickup raid and kill the smattering of easy contested SOE added in for the non-hardcore crowd.  If your guild raids a few days a week you have PR/Tomb/PB on your schedule that will give your guild upgrades and put some nice plat in your pockets.  On top of that they added persistant instances so that players who want to break into raiding can do the harder zones like VS and VP (once they get there) on their own time table taking up to 9 days to continue blazing a trail through content.</p><p>So basically if you've been here since launch reading these forums, they've addressed just about every single issue the casual/solo player had prior to RoK.  They took away the level grind, they stop forcing ppl to raid 4+ hours a night just to finish a zone, they added nice fabled quality rewards from solo quests and heroic instances, they dropped some easy raids out there for players to learn on that have nice rewards.</p><p>You know what happened?</p><p>Subs still are lackluster, people still complain.  So now instead of all the things players with entitlement issues used to complain about, they complain about the few things they still don't have.  They don't have an easy button to their mythical, they don't have an easy button to VP, they don't have an easy button on VS.</p><p>The problem is, SOE already listened to all the casual, solo, median skilled players once and in the end their bottom line didn't do any better.  So while I may be a minority playstyle and my money is so trivial, it doesn't really seem like catering almost an entire expansion to the opposite end did much in way of subs and revenue either, did it? </p><hr /><p> Before you blurt something you may regret too, I hate to tell you this, but we are in a fully Australian guild with pings of 300+ who raids RoK 3 times a week and have made it into VP just fine, so whats the deal? We raid 2-3 hours a night also.......</p><p> It is as simple as this, you get out of the game with what you put into it, people who are more organized and more effcient with thier time get more out of it in a less amount of time, does this make them the stereotyped hard core people? No it just makes them more organized and probally a little more smarter for doing it like that in the first place.</p><p> The amount of effort most people put into whining and complaining on the forums about something being bugged when its consistantly being farmed by at least 6-10 guilds per server pretty much indicates it isn't bugged and is simply a player issue, therefore if they put as much effort in here crying about not getting thier mythical and that *hard core* have had right of passage for months, they would of killed VS multiple times by now themselves.</p><p> The designer of ACT even added a plug in specifically for VS fight to help the not so organized guilds.......how much more do people have to hold your hands? Seriously, it is no more then a 10 min fight IF you pay attention.</p><p> Our guild has it planned to contuine on killing VS even though we do not need to any more, why? Because we can......</p>

[simpwrx02]

<p>Stop using and quoting logic.</p><p>Its my money and I want it NOW!!</p>

[zorax15]

<p>@Aonein</p><p>t1 is easy, t2 harder than t3 and most t4. t4 for the most part equals t1.the flagging system just reduces the available raid content in rok for many guilds. that's bad. it was time to get rid of the zone flags since the progression in rok is a total joke.</p>

[-Aonein-]

<cite>Kicks@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>@Aonein</p><p>t1 is easy, t2 harder than t3 and most t4. t4 for the most part equals t1.the flagging system just reduces the available raid content in rok for many guilds. that's bad. it was time to get rid of the zone flags since the progression in rok is a total joke.</p></blockquote> You cannot compaire T1 to T4 on any level what so ever except maybe one concept, once you have passed Nexona and Druushk.............once you have, it is a loot pinata, period. GL to any guild who cannot beat VS or like I said in my last post only just killed OK in the last month but stuck on VS killing Nexona and Druushk. If you can't succesfully get 1 person to click a statue, how the hell are you going to succesfully get 4 people to do it?

[Rayche]

<cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kicks@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>@Aonein</p><p>t1 is easy, t2 harder than t3 and most t4. t4 for the most part equals t1.the flagging system just reduces the available raid content in rok for many guilds. that's bad. it was time to get rid of the zone flags since the progression in rok is a total joke.</p></blockquote> You cannot compaire T1 to T4 on any level what so ever except maybe one concept, once you have passed Nexona and Druushk.............once you have, it is a loot pinata, period. GL to any guild who cannot beat VS or like I said in my last post only just killed OK in the last month but stuck on VS killing Nexona and Druushk. If you can't succesfully get 1 person to click a statue, how the hell are you going to succesfully get 4 people to do it?</blockquote>First, I'm laughing at how worked up you guys get over it. It's funny to me. I don't take it that seriously and you shouldn't either, but that's just my opinion and one I'm entitled to.I already said I would prefer they hadn't unlocked Leviathan. If for no other reason than to keep people like you from beating your chest and feeling the need to condescend to the people that take content at a slower pace.  You aren't working any form of voodoo magic, hardcore raiders aren't a higher life form, they just spend more hours at once to get where they get. We'll do the same thing you do, we just won't have it burned out 8 months before the next expansion is out.Don't worry about us. We'll be fine.VS isn't tough. Leviathan isn't tough.They have [Removed for Content] scripts and a lot of things can go wrong, and some of it is even interesting (Like killing a mob from the inside out) but for the most part it's not something cosmically difficult that requires anything more than co-ordination and effort.)Comparing it to EQ1 isn't moot either. In EQ1 they opened CONTESTED stuff that we had to flag for. We lost some good group zones to people that had no idea what they were doing and trained the crap out of us...You aren't losing VP.. it's an instance. You aren't losing Leviathan... it's an instance.In fact, if Sony didn't announce it, you wouldn't even be aware that we were there.

[KBern]

<cite>Cometus@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>VS isn't tough. Leviathan isn't tough.They have [I cannot control my vocabulary] scripts and a lot of things can go wrong, and some of it is even interesting (Like killing a mob from the inside out) but for the most part it's not something cosmically difficult that requires anything more than co-ordination and effort.)</blockquote><p>So basically your whole post justifies that no change was needed.  Thanks for agreeing.</p><p>If everything is so easy, people should have just beat the mobs and stop whining about how everything they cannot beat must be bugged.</p><p>But as you say, I guess some people dont even want to confronted with a minimal challenge.</p><p>People cannot even beat the content they have in front of them but feel the need to ask for more content to be opened that is even harder.</p><p>It is akin to not being able to win your local community golf tourny but then asking to get into the US Open.</p><p>If you cant beat one, you definately wont be succesful in the next, but I guess this will only help people realize that simple fact that many seem to lose sight of.</p>

[LygerT]

who cares... let them see a new zone, it gets tiring seeing the same old crap night after night. does it really hurt us that they can now see leviathan? only when i get people bugging me to let them into the zone..

[Murchik]

all this talk about hard work to do for "the whole raid" to be flaged, would that "work" be any easier if you had to flag only one person?

[Siatfallen]

<cite>Murchik wrote:</cite><blockquote>all this talk about hard work to do for "the whole raid" to be flaged, would that "work" be any easier if you had to flag only one person?</blockquote>There is a signifigant difference in difficulty between putting in the time to take down Venril Sathir as a guild, and recruiting one member who has done it with another guild before. A 50% or 75% flagged requirement would help guilds who could beat the content, but lack a person of a specific class correctly flagged. Hell, it would even allow hardcore guilds to take in pickup people on a whim if they wanted to (rather unlikely on Leviathan I guess).The system, as it is now, simply helps guilds who want to bypass the content and move on, nothing else. It destroys the idea of progressing that came with RoK. Which would be fine but for one supremely annoying factor: VS have relevance because and only because of the flagging component. Thuuga was still relevant back when they removed access requirements to get into t2, since it was the easiest zone to get started on for raiders wanting to experiment with t8 raids. PB was... Not really relevant save for updates anymore. Oh, and for brawler loot I guess. Yay.VS is going to run into the same problem. It has halfway decent loot, but there is only one named. Hence, it will never pay off to kill the mob. Save for people needing mythical updates, it could quickly fall into disuse. Kor-Sha... Will still be utilised. There's a good deal of nameds to kill, and some very respectable loot to be found on said nameds. It's worth farming for that reason.Venril was designed to be the speedbump - or roadblock - to t3. That gone, there's really not much point left.

[-Aonein-]

<cite>Siatfallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Murchik wrote:</cite><blockquote>all this talk about hard work to do for "the whole raid" to be flaged, would that "work" be any easier if you had to flag only one person?</blockquote>There is a signifigant difference in difficulty between putting in the time to take down Venril Sathir as a guild, and recruiting one member who has done it with another guild before.</blockquote><p> Why would anyone leave thier guild who can succesfully kill VS and probally working on clearing VP leave to go and join a guild who can't even beat VS and not even farming Levithan? Makes no sense what so ever....</p><p> Succesfully beating VS <b>*<u>used</u>*</b> to make you VP flagged, because if you can kill VS, you can kill all of Tier 1, 2 and 3 and chances are pretty high that you would have Nexona and Druushk dead in less then a month, for guilds who have killed VS more then 5+ times, I'd be willing to say that it would take them maybe 2 to 3 weeks to get a strat down for them.</p><p> Still erked about this change, no need for it at <b><u>ALL</u></b>.</p><p> Once you start hand feeding your subscriber base and causing mudflation in the process, it never stops and only gets worse.</p>

[starfox65]

<cite>Cyque@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I couldn't agree more with what Gaige said above.</p><p>Here is what will happen.</p><p>"Omg, we can't kill VS. Nerf."</p><p>"Omg, we can't kill Levi. Nerf."</p><p>"Omg, its too hard to flag everyone for VP. Change it!."</p><p>"Omg, Druushk is too hard. Nerf."</p><p>And Sony will eventually do every single one of those things.</p></blockquote>Good, I hope they do nerf those mobs! Personally im so sick of being stuck on VS and Overking for 3 months!! Sony needs to give all guilds a chance to get their mythicals<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> All you hear is the same 1 or 2 guilds on the servers getting theirs! Cmon sony, make our mythicals a lil easier to get! 3 months stuck on the same mob is overdoing the mob a little bit<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Caetrel]

<cite>starfox65 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cyque@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I couldn't agree more with what Gaige said above.</p><p>Here is what will happen.</p><p>"Omg, we can't kill VS. Nerf."</p><p>"Omg, we can't kill Levi. Nerf."</p><p>"Omg, its too hard to flag everyone for VP. Change it!."</p><p>"Omg, Druushk is too hard. Nerf."</p><p>And Sony will eventually do every single one of those things.</p></blockquote>Good, I hope they do nerf those mobs! Personally im so sick of being stuck on VS and Overking for 3 months!! Sony needs to give all guilds a chance to get their mythicals<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> All you hear is the same 1 or 2 guilds on the servers getting theirs! Cmon sony, make our mythicals a lil easier to get! 3 months stuck on the same mob is overdoing the mob a little bit<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>All guilds do have a chance to beat these mobs, and it is the same exact chance.  </p><p>If people cannot kill VS yet they are likely going to struggle on Leviathan, as it does require some organization.   And they ain't gonna beat Nexona ever, even with a nerf she could remain undefeated by guilds who can't get VS.</p><p>If VS and Overking are giving you a beatdown this late in the xpac, your woes are only going to get worse.  Getting into VP without having mastered those early mobs is pretty much useless, there are 2 names you can kill before Nex/ Druusk.  It's just out of the pan and into the fire.  </p><p>This flag change affects little to nothing.  Maybe people will start selling Crystalized Phospherous en masse on the broker, that'll be cool.</p>

[-Aonein-]

<cite>Fidelus@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This flag change affects little to nothing.  Maybe people will start selling Crystalized Phospherous en masse on the broker, that'll be cool.</p></blockquote> They will nerf that too and make them No-Trade.....

[LygerT]

<cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p> Why would anyone leave thier guild who can succesfully kill VS and probally working on clearing VP leave to go and join a guild who can't even beat VS and not even farming Levithan? Makes no sense what so ever....</p></blockquote><p>i'm pretty sure he means begging someone from a flagged guild to let them enter the zone, you don't have to be guilded to be in raid.</p><p>i've pretty much already told people what has been said in this thread anyways, you may be able to see the new zone but don't expect it to be any easier. you'd almost be as well off just exploring some zones you have never seen before just to see something new. as for the change, i find it more annoying than anything as i have people from many guilds asking me to zone them in to which would be more of a nuisance anyways because then it would be continual until they actually get the flag they needed in the first place. </p><p>they would have been better off taking the randomness out of venril than changing the zone requirements IMO. raiders accepted the nerfs to druushk/nexona but aren't willing to accept a nerf to slowly feed guilds into T3 by allowing them to beat venril? well of course some are very protective and will be very anti that thought but i doubt too many complained when they beat the new versions to get their mythicals. then some will come back and say that T2 is completely different than VP: to which i would reply- i would much rather kill druushk/nexona than go back to the hellhole that is VS and it's lag infested bugginess.</p><p>sony tried to throw a bone to more casual guilds, they threw the bone out the window though. </p>

[Phank]

<p>Changes like this make me wonder WHO IS PLAYING THIS GAME AT SONY??</p><p>For players that have actually progressed with a guild, either casual or hardcore, is offended by this change.  What's next?  Will players be able to Hail an NPC to complete their Mythicals?</p>

[acctlc]

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>they would have been better off taking the randomness out of venril than changing the zone requirements IMO. raiders accepted the nerfs to druushk/nexona but aren't willing to accept a nerf to slowly feed guilds into T3 by allowing them to beat venril? well of course some are very protective and will be very anti that thought but i doubt too many complained when they beat the new versions to get their mythicals. then some will come back and say that T2 is completely different than VP: to which i would reply- i would much rather kill druushk/nexona than go back to the hellhole that is VS and it's lag infested bugginess.</p><p>sony tried to throw a bone to more casual guilds, they threw the bone out the window though. </p></blockquote>Agree whole-heartedly on this one.  Since the flagging change my guild has not been back to Venril despite those grumbling they still need the epic update.  We beat Venril before his changes so have no problem now with progressing onward with  multiple new recruits and I forsee us having CoD dead in next to no time compared to the hours of  frustration we have spent on that PoS encounter.  You want to leave venril as he is?  Toss him into VP..otherwise adjust the encounter to be in line with other t2 bosses instead of having Overking look like a kiddie toy in comparison.

[Gorhauth]

<cite>Phank wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Changes like this make me wonder WHO IS PLAYING THIS GAME AT SONY??</p><p>For players that have actually progressed with a guild, either casual or hardcore, is offended by this change.  What's next?  Will players be able to Hail an NPC to complete their Mythicals?</p></blockquote>I fail to see why people who progressed past this before the change would be offended.  The zones didn't change, only the requirements to see the later zones.  It has no affect on me that people are now allowed to skip some raids if they don't want to dork with them.  Overall, this is probably the easiest and least intrusive change they could have made for guilds that were blocked from progressing.  They didn't nerf anything at all that affects me, or the rest of the guild, or the guilds that are already in VP.  If people want to see if their recruits are up to the challenge, there is nothing stopping them from going back to VS.I think this change is a lot better than nerfing the crap out of a fight.