T8 Ability Scaling Comparison [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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Razlath

05-09-2008, 03:22 PM

I have heard several people mention that a portion of the problems with the SK class currently is the scaling on our T8 abilities (and thus a large DPS gap). Since this seems to be something that can easily be quantified I have some questions on how to go about doing it. Some of these may seem really newb-ish, but they are just things I really don't know about how the broker tooltips work and I want to be sure I compare apples to apples. Any help that can be provided would be appreciated.First question: When you inspect a spell book on the broker does it include adjustments for your stats (ie a character with more int sees more damage listed than one without). If it does, does it also include adjustments for your stats if you can not use the book or does the spell list incorrect damage values if you are the wrong class (ie an inquisitor looking at a SK book)?Second question: What fighter class(es) should we compare our T8 scaling against for the most fair comparison? I was thinking Berserker since they are the other plate wearing damage dealing class (which it seems like we are supposed to be). Should I just compare against all of the other fighter classes?I would like to set up a comparison primarily on damage dealing abilities and taunts not on utility. Utility seems to be a matter of "feel" a lot of times and I would like to stick to true numbers. I know that EQ2i has spell values listed, but I am not sure if they are base values gathered from some source, or just what people have seen when looking at their spells. To avoid possible muddying of the waters I would like to pull the numbers from a central fair source (the game itself).Thanks for any advice you can give to help me set up this comparison.

dlove1

05-09-2008, 06:33 PM

the only way to get the information you are talking about the way that you want it is to compare them side by side(after scribing) in game. I have all the old masters. I don't have any of the new ones. I don't have the 2000 plat to buy them. I can get you all the real game values from the old masters if you want. this is what I come up with just playing around on the web. keep in mind that a lot of our abilities have melee in them. that is not reflected on the web versions of our spells. I left the ones out that don't have added damage(the strike/debuffs)here goes:Level 55. Tap Veins, 798 +heal 532 level 74. Tap arteries: 1159 +heal 773 Level 61, unhallowed strength: +54 str and sta to group level 73. Lucans leadership: +65 sta to raidlevel 62, Pestilent touch, 2772-4620 level 74. Death touch: 3478-5796level 63. Death Circle 119 every 6 secs level 75. Crimson circle: 150 every 6 secondslevel 64. Putrid Coil, 128 every 4 secs level 76. Shadow Coil: 161 every 4 secslevel 65. Pestilence: 117-143 every 2 secs level 78. Contagion, 150-183 every 2 secslevel 65. Fetid Smite: 304-507 level 77. Siphon strike, 368-614level 68. Abominable wrath 671-1118 Level 77. Pain Wrath, 813-1355Level 68. Grave Blessing: 136-166 heals 272-333 5 triggers Level 79. Life Pact: 168-205 heals 336-411 5 triggers level 69. Abominable Anger: 341-569 level 79. Malice: 414-690level 70, Despoil: debuffs 1680 vs physical Level 80. Devouring Mists: debuffs 2016Level 70. Drain Vitae 384-470 Level 80. Siphone Vitae: 467-570Level 70. Unending Misery 171 every 4 secs Level 80. Painful Aura: 207 every 4 secondsStances: Level 58. Infernal Circle: +145 wis, -17 to slash/crush/pierce, +28 Defense +1856 mitigation, 15% bonus top worn armorLevel 72. Fiendish Circle: +183 wis, -22 slash/crush/pierce, +17.4 aggression, +35 Defense, +2419 mitigation, 15% armor bonusLevel 60. Pox Sword: +226 Int, -18 Defense, +43 slash/crush/pierce/disruptionLevel73. lucan's Sword: +280 int, -22 defense, +53 slash/crush/pierce/disruptionas you can see, some of these spells are ok but on long timers. others are very weak for the level. notice a 207 point dot at level 80, 161 point dot at 76, 150 at level 78. there are several more that have some type of debuff or small dot added to them but they also involve a strike that shows up as 0 damage if you aren't in the game. this is a good cross section of our spells/buffs/debuffs. also, notice that wisdom on our stance that we don't even use. why not just give us +resists? wait! I know! how about +20% avoidance and remove some of the penalties. I would be fine with our dps being in the toilet if we had great aggro. I would be fine with our aggro being crap if we had great dps. we just need to be good at something. ....anything

DMIstar

05-09-2008, 06:55 PM

I have heard several people mention that a portion of the problems with the SK class currently is the scaling on our T8 abilities (and thus a large DPS gap). Since this seems to be something that can easily be quantified I have some questions on how to go about doing it. Some of these may seem really newb-ish, but they are just things I really don't know about how the broker tooltips work and I want to be sure I compare apples to apples. Any help that can be provided would be appreciated. Ok Our stuff Scales with STR/INT Spell dmg and Combat art dmg... In base number on Screen... other Fighters will Just be STR Combat Art Dmg gains... Its should show up on your examine these scaled rates... Note: Besure to Remove CA/SD stuff to get a good comparison, it can be hard to do =P.. I have a comparison on my other comp that had depth on base numbers taken a few weeks back. First question: When you inspect a spell book on the broker does it include adjustments for your stats (ie a character with more int sees more damage listed than one without). If it does, does it also include adjustments for your stats if you can not use the book or does the spell list incorrect damage values if you are the wrong class (ie an inquisitor looking at a SK book)? Never known the examine window to show off info regarding stats... If you examine something it takes its base value. adds in your modifiers that you have up and shows you the damage you would have that item/spell... So I you lower yourself to 300str and examine a CA you will the number,, add in CA or more STR you will see the gain made.Second question: What fighter class(es) should we compare our T8 scaling against for the most fair comparison? I was thinking Berserker since they are the other plate wearing damage dealing class (which it seems like we are supposed to be). Should I just compare against all of the other fighter classes? This is dependant how much work you want to do... From Moorgards own Post The DPS tiers look like this with fighters:High DPS: Monks/BrusiersMid DPS: Berserkers/SksLow DPS: Pallies/Guards I would like to set up a comparison primarily on damage dealing abilities and taunts not on utility. Utility seems to be a matter of "feel" a lot of times and I would like to stick to true numbers. I know that EQ2i has spell values listed, but I am not sure if they are base values gathered from some source, or just what people have seen when looking at their spells. To avoid possible muddying of the waters I would like to pull the numbers from a central fair source (the game itself).Thanks for any advice you can give to help me set up this comparisonThings to keep eye on, Is we are dot based, others are not.. So its very important to take in consideration of Recast/cast, Damage per second of our spells. Also took into consideration Power usages. If your still looking into this goodluck ;P

DMIstar

05-09-2008, 07:05 PM

Ohh yeah i made this a few pages back on: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=414319" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=414319</a>This Comparison Is at SK: 700int/700str 0 spell/CA Dmg Guard: 700STR 0 CA dmg <img src="http://www.dark-riseing.com/temp/sk.JPG" border="0" alt="" width="845" height="641" />

Razlath

05-10-2008, 08:25 PM

Ok, I finished what I intially set out to do, but did not see the results I was expecting. Here the premises I worked under as well as a reproduce by for how I got my numbers.Goal: Determine if ShadkowKnight ability scaling from T7 to T8 was lacking significantly against our closest counterpart in the tank world the Berserker. Only a direct comparison of our T7 abilities to our T8 abilities and their T7 abilities to their T8 abilities is considered in scope for this investigation. Determining our DPS relative to the Berserker class is out of scope for this particular investigation due to the wide variety of factors that can influence DPS such as AAs, stats, and gear.Primary Premise: The primary premise of this investigation is that there is a gap between ShadowKnights and Berserkers from a DPS standpoint. This premise is being taken from the observations of some of the ShadowKnight community have expressed based on personal perceptions, raid parses, and comments made when raid slots are requested.Reproduce Steps: In an effort to get as close as possible to baseline spell numbers the following steps were taken.1) A lvl 1 Human with no xp, no AAxp, and no gear was used to peruse the broker. The class for the lvl 1 human is Troubador so that none of the spells would ever be scribeable by the character searching the broker. Prior to beginning I confirmed that a characters stats do affect the numbers listed in the tooltip window on the broker. This is why a lvl 1 character was used.2) This character had 20s in every stat which are human beginning racial stats, no gear adjusting stats was worn.3) Spells to be looked at were obtained from EQ2i's list of spell lines for each class. Only spells which appeared to be consistent lines were compared. Spell lines which skip more than 15 lvls were ignored. The names of the lines listed in the spreadsheet are as EQ2i names them. Regardless of the actual lvl of the spell the spell that would have been used in the 61 to 70 range was noted as Tier 7 and the spell used in the 71 to 80 range noted as Tier 8.4) All numbers come from the tooltip in the brokers browse window. 5) Only equivalent quality of the spells were compared (ie App4 tier 7 to App4 tier 8 ). The highest quality possible with the data available was compared. The three qualities I gathered in order of compare priority were Master 1, Adept 1, Apprentice IV.With all of that out of the way, here are the results:<a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/image_view.vm?imageId=957761" target="_blank">Link to screenshot</a>Conclusions: While we are a small percentage behind the berserker class on spell scaling (approximately .8%) it is not as much as I had expected to find. This would lead to several possible conclusions. We could be scaling properly, but be hampered by generally lower effectiveness of abilities from more than one tier back. Further comparisons of baseline DPS actuals might yeild further insight into this possibility.Another possiblity is that we could be scaling properly and actuals would appear correct as well, but the other factors influencing total DPS output are causing us to lag behind. The primary considerations in this second point would be how our stats affect us, and what the gear we must wear has for stats. Alternate Advancement abilities could also be a contributing factor. Unfortunately this possibility is much harder to test due to the wide variety and almost infinite combinations that can be arrayed through AAs, gear, and buffs.It is also possible that we are not lagging behind the berserkers at all in the DPS arena, and the gap being percieved is perception only, or based on the stigma associated with our class in raids and thus not receiving buffs that would allow us to perform better.While I had hoped to find a smoking gun with this test I unfortunately did not. I will continue to play with the data I have assembled and see if I can come up with any futher conclusions from it. Mainly I will try to focus on the actuals of our Base DPS compared with the Berserker (to test the theory that no discrepency in scaling showed because we have been underpowered since before T7). I may also look at incorporating some of the other fighter classes into the mix. If anyone would like the actual files I used to do the comparison I will see what I can do about making them available for download.

DMIstar

05-10-2008, 09:09 PM

Couple of things to keep in mind.. Firstly We didnt have these threads back In EoF, mainly Due to Spell Dmg.. This was kinda of a direct upgrade for us dureing this time, that Berserkers did not have a parent to... Though yeah it only effected our Spells, but this proved a good booster.. Now We Do have CA in game, Which levels out the field a littler but we are still split.. Meanswhile Melee can focuse on CA while going for DA, Melee Crit .. .Vs us going for that as well plus spell crit, Spell dmg .. etc.. This is inturn raises thier Weapon Dmg Output vs us. Secondly, Your comparisons are of a toon on all 20s in stats... real jist of it is, Sk's are not even dps stat'd to the melee classes, alot of us are running around with High STR and Verly Low INT while tanking, meanwhile just the one STR stat is needed for the melee classes... So literaly i can say the Berserkers are still getting a spell gain more then us. theres no compensation for us on haveing low INT, and the higher INT we have the lower our Tanking ability goes :/Theres alot of varieing factors on whats happening.

Pimmy

05-12-2008, 02:33 AM

The chart above means nothing. Its just a bad comparison. If you compare SK with STR 700 / INT 700, its about as same as Guard having STR 1400. On defensive SK's INT sucks.. its like in the 300's. Also you compare only spells and CA's. I think much of Guard/Zerker DPS comes directly from AutoAttack which is booster by RoK gear and AA's.SK's have to spam spells to keep aggro and hence have heavy power regen in groups. Guards have no such problem usually.

Razlath

05-12-2008, 12:15 PM

<cite>Pimmy@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>The chart above means nothing. Its just a bad comparison. If you compare SK with STR 700 / INT 700, its about as same as Guard having STR 1400. On defensive SK's INT sucks.. its like in the 300's. Also you compare only spells and CA's. I think much of Guard/Zerker DPS comes directly from AutoAttack which is booster by RoK gear and AA's.</blockquote>Actually that is exactly what this chart shows, and therefore is not meaningless. What we see is that on a base level our abilities do in fact sclae the same as a berserkers.Now with the presumption that we have a DPS gap we must look for something else to be causing it. Eliminating a factor is never a bad thing as it narrows the playing field on the problem. What we are left with is that the problem lies somewhere other than in our baseline spell scaling. This is important because it allows us to focus our requests better. We could still ask for different spell scaling, but in reality what we need is something else to close the gap.This may very well be a grear review based on how we are expected to behave (are we a STR/STA/INT class, or a STA/AGI/INT class, or a STR/STA/AGI class, should we focus on melee or spells). It could be a review of our Acheivment Abilities. It could be a review of the actual hard number (not percentage of growth) of the abilities looked at.As I sated in the Goal section all I was comparing was the scale of our abilities themselves from T7 to T8. Stats were purposely left out because the base spells themselves are what was being compared. So now we know not to say our spells didn't scale properly from T7 to T8 relative to the other classes. That is obviously not true. The end result of the class might not have scaled properly, but our abilities scaled at nearly the same rate as the berserkers did.Personaly I am leaning towards gear being our primary problem. With our DPS split between two primary abilities we are always going to have a bit of a problem due to having to split our focus. We need gear that helps to balance these out. We need to stop having to share our class gear with Paladins (who use different stats) and the other plate tanks. I had hoped to find a discrepency in our ability scaling because that would have been much easier to fix. If we had been X% behind the zerkers, then the devs could have reviewed and added X% across the board to our abilities. Instead what we found is the baseline scaled fine. It is the final result that is the problem. And that final result comes primarily from gear. Changing the itemization to include gear that has the end result of increasing our effectiveness is a lot more work and effort.Another thought would be if the STR and INT we gain is only half as effective causing our abilities to be half as effective maybe we need better double attack options in our AA lines for both melee and spells. Perhaps the WIS line should be re-worked to allow these options. There are possibilities out there, but we have to work through what is not the problem first. That is what this investigation showed. I had hoped to show what the problem was, but instead only managed to show what the problem isn't. It wasn't the smoking gun I was looking for, but it still provides information that helps us form intelligent requests of the devs.

Razlath

05-12-2008, 12:21 PM

<cite>Istar@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Secondly, Your comparisons are of a toon on all 20s in stats... real jist of it is, Sk's are not even dps stat'd to the melee classes, alot of us are running around with High STR and Verly Low INT while tanking, meanwhile just the one STR stat is needed for the melee classes... So literaly i can say the Berserkers are still getting a spell gain more then us. theres no compensation for us on haveing low INT, and the higher INT we have the lower our Tanking ability goes :/Theres alot of varieing factors on whats happening. </blockquote>I agree Istar, a lot is going on here, EQ2 is an insanely complex game that I could never hope to quantify with a single spreadsheet. That is why I tackled a section of it that is completely quantifiable and testable. The results of that test show that we need to look elsewhere. Others have done some awesome studies into the stats on our gear compared to the other plate wearers. I think the conclusions from that thread are very eye opening and hopefully will be heeded by the devs.