Allakazam chat tonight [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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Phank

05-08-2008, 01:20 PM

I was promised there would be a Crusader question in the queue. Whether or not the right Dev is there to answer is another story. Chat is tonight at 8pm EST.

DMIstar

05-08-2008, 10:50 PM

kiara: The second question is: (BlackphoenixZ) Following the Ranger and the Coercer revamp from the last 2 LU's, will we continue to see a revamp to a class every LU for sometime? if so, could you tell us what classes are being worked atm?Aeralik: A lot of classes could use a little bit of attention like the rangers and coercers. However, at the moment there are no plans for anything as radical as those two. Thats not to say there won't be anything done but it will probably be smaller changes for the next few updates.We are screwed.

Tiberuis

05-08-2008, 11:19 PM

/agree Shadowknights Rejoice! We are screwed.

seamus

05-09-2008, 10:51 AM

Sad.Well, I know many here aren't big fans of WOW, but they just released a ton of info on the next expansion and the Death Knight class. Pretty sweet. Do you hear that SOE? Check out WOW Insider, Gamespy (PC section) and WorldofWar.net if you are interested. My favorite ability I've seen is the ability to rez an ally as a ghoul that fights for you. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Phank

05-09-2008, 12:13 PM

So much for that.Crusaders are S.O.L., Shadowknights look to remain a joke.That's cool. More time to spend with the family I guess.

DMIstar

05-09-2008, 02:39 PM

Well WoW is looking good right now. I played it as a ranger before, and enjoyed the short run of it. Should go back to that. I'm not saying i Didn't have fun here.. Its been a challangeing run. But the issues have just built up way to much over time.. At first it was the EoF Dogmatic suit... I was mildly pist off about it once i saw it.. Cause I was rather anticipating Set Gear to the game. So this set blew me off saying i need to get the raid set... Of course i don't have the magical drop luck, Ive seen every full suit besides SK's on numerouse runs of these places, and I mean tons of runs. Literally I'm just tired of this game, I cant tell whether its the fact that, the New Raid zones have so little gear to even upgrade to ...Cause we where blown off again with Demonguard... Or the nullifying tactics of these mobs... The gear wise is alot actually, cause i can only be the same after so much time.. Though haveing Mobs built to make your class suck worse in operating is not fun either. ahh well, I think the reasoning on those two classes got done, Coecers, rangers.. was because they where the on that poll of thiers in dev circle forum...once it got down to doing a tank, its like "Up its time to disapear" attitude. I can disagree with ideas, But I know one thing, these problems are real, People are not makeing topic after topic on this just for fun. the sheer numbers speak out. yet its blatently being ignored and dragged on. And some of this stuff is so easy to see, its like an eyesore especially on the gear graphs and they still ignore it. point is, we can still make post after post after post in hopes of what is not to come, or just give up. Its clear regardless how many threads we make at this point, and no matter how many ideas are given, there will be nothing done or solved... The least they could do is open up the betrayal for this class, to which you can choose whatever fighter to goto instead of forced to be pally... But they will fight tooth and nail before they will give the respect to do that.

Darkc

05-09-2008, 02:44 PM

To be honest, I really don't agree with all the "Doom and Gloom" lately... which resulted from other classes getting revamps and instead of trying to make an educated case, we're whining and crying like the kid that saw his little sister get a lollipop. There's a few lvl 80 revamps coming up of older zones from what I understand (like Runnyeye). I'm sure it'll be packed with multi encounters like the lvl 35ish version. SKs will be in demand for those again. For raiding, VP / Trak / Avatar gear really is very nice for SKs... we just need something to get us in the raids to get such gear. I don't think a full class revamp is needed for that.

Aeralik

05-09-2008, 03:02 PM

<cite>Grimgrave@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>ahh well, I think the reasoning on those two classes got done, Coecers, rangers.. was because they where the on that poll of thiers in dev circle forum...once it got down to doing a tank, its like "Up its time to disapear" attitude. </blockquote>To be honest, Coercers were never even scheduled for gu45. I got ahead of schedule and had some time so I proposed some changes and then implemented them. For gu46, I don't see this happening although we do have some smaller impact changes going in. For beyond that, its largely like I said I don't currently have a plans to do a coercer like update for any class. Can that change though? Yes its possible but for now there are no plans for that.

CHIMPNOODLE.

05-09-2008, 03:06 PM

<cite>Darkc wrote:</cite><blockquote> To be honest, I really don't agree with all the "Doom and Groom" lately...</blockquote>Same....but I'm purposely staying out of most of those threads to not sabotage the chance of getting more candy! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /> lol.Oh, and thanks for poppin' by Aeralik....you're going to give some hope to a few who are disgruntled just by letting them know you're aware there are some concerns being voiced <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />

DMIstar

05-09-2008, 03:25 PM

" To be honest, I really don't agree with all the "Doom and Gloom" lately... which resulted from other classes getting revamps and instead of trying to make an educated case, we're whining and crying like the kid that saw his little sister get a lollipop. " So is the forum going to get down to attacks on each other, since topics are spent ? if so please keep in to reason.. One thing I have noticed on these discussions, is the cry for nerf is literally nowhere here and is pretty much avoided.. I havent gone off and started claiming anything indepth on other classes. To me theres no need to start that. The Focus is on this class. I'm not wanting to start pulling in fights about another. and no I disagree that this started about the ranger/coercer work.. This has gone on far longer then it, But it was a pile of gripes originally on other forums. I think the devouring mist had a good trigger on this specific forum though.. Where as other combat disscussions where going on before GU 42... Personaly I was happy that the two got done, Though Was hopeing that, it would send a trend to prepare for next expansion comeing up. Along with alot of others as well. Especially in game.

Soefje

05-09-2008, 05:33 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Grimgrave@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>ahh well, I think the reasoning on those two classes got done, Coecers, rangers.. was because they where the on that poll of thiers in dev circle forum...once it got down to doing a tank, its like "Up its time to disapear" attitude. </blockquote>To be honest, Coercers were never even scheduled for gu45. I got ahead of schedule and had some time so I proposed some changes and then implemented them. For gu46, I don't see this happening although we do have some smaller impact changes going in. For beyond that, its largely like I said I don't currently have a plans to do a coercer like update for any class. Can that change though? Yes its possible but for now there are no plans for that. </blockquote>Wow, a red name actually posted. Thanks Aeralik.However, you have made me more depressed than before. What this tells me is that the designers are aware of the problems/issues/complaints of the SK community, but have made a conscience decision to do nothing at this time. This tells me that the SK are either 1. Where the designers want them to be. 2. The designer know we have problems and don't really care, or don't have the time to fix us because... 3. There are way too many other messed up issues that have priority to work on the SK right now.In each of these case, it does not bode well for the future of the SK, or even the future of EQ2. To totally ignore 1 class and fix others just sends the wrong message as far as I am concerned.

Phank

05-09-2008, 05:44 PM

Again, all I ask is that a designer play a Shadowknight on Raid. That's it. Good luck trying to parse in the top 10.Matter of fact, I will donate my character and account any time for any designer to play my SK. My guild raids 5 nights a week, we all have Mythicals, and we generally rinse and repeat like all the rest.Contact me via PM and play my Shadowknight. You will then share our pain, on our level, in our environment.To truly empathize you need to walk in our shoes.

Frigid2000

05-09-2008, 05:54 PM

Why is it every "omg, my class is broken" thread there is, is usually someone whining that their class isn't in the top 10 on parsing? Well, hm. 24 people on a raid. Only 10 of those can.. be in the top 10. THERE'S A CONCEPT.Plus, you're a tank. Not a dps class.

Tiberuis

05-09-2008, 05:56 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Grimgrave@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>ahh well, I think the reasoning on those two classes got done, Coecers, rangers.. was because they where the on that poll of thiers in dev circle forum...once it got down to doing a tank, its like "Up its time to disapear" attitude. </blockquote>To be honest, Coercers were never even scheduled for gu45. I got ahead of schedule and had some time so I proposed some changes and then implemented them. For gu46, I don't see this happening although we do have some smaller impact changes going in. For beyond that, its largely like I said I don't currently have a plans to do a coercer like update for any class. Can that change though? Yes its possible but for now there are no plans for that. </blockquote>Boy, am I glad to see you Aeralik. Thanks so much for popping in. This is the first time I have seen a Dev directly in these SK threads. I hope you have had an opportunity to read up on some of the less...ahem...emotional thread posts (unlike like some of my posts, lol).I am indeed encouraged by the news of some "smaller impact changes going in." I certainly hope you keep the SK close to your heart on this one. Some small tweaks on Itemization, DPS or Raid Utility would sure be some welcome "cookies" to "hold us over till dinner." I am happy that you came by to read. It sure made my EQ2 day brighter <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Phank

05-09-2008, 06:08 PM

Naughtesn

05-09-2008, 06:15 PM

Nole

05-09-2008, 09:11 PM

<cite>seamus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sad.Well, I know many here aren't big fans of WOW, but they just released a ton of info on the next expansion and the Death Knight class. Pretty sweet. Do you hear that SOE? Check out WOW Insider, Gamespy (PC section) and WorldofWar.net if you are interested. My favorite ability I've seen is the ability to rez an ally as a ghoul that fights for you. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Yeah, but then you'd have to play WoW and put up with Blizzard not listening to your concerns/etc.I suspect the real problem SKs have in terms of getting a revamp is that we're perfectly awesome until like raid content. I mean, taking my time with exp off, still at 66, I have yet to see anything that would make me understand what all the doom and gloom is about. Then again my gear is much better than people I group with. I suspect I might not be seeing things like our damage not scaling up well to the next tier or lack of multimob encounters, but I don't think things like that require a revamp of the class. They require someone adding some % increase to base damage values of our T8 abilities and making some encounters multimob.

Lord Hackenslash

05-09-2008, 11:46 PM

I am a part time raiding SK: Part time because my raid force no longer can fit me in with the lack SK Raid effectivenesPhank my numbers are about the same as yours in parse, I don't have mythical so have to use a 2h to get there. I partially disagree with your desire to be in the top 10. If our tanking ability stays as it is, i would tend to agree more. The issue is balance and I am willing to let the dev team move it in the direction of DPS as you like or tanking ability as many of us would like. The important thing is that some movement is made towards our raid effectiveness.Currently we are at the bottom of the tanks in DPS all our gear has diminishing returns (+spell dmg doesnt help combat arts, +melee crit doesnt help spells, ect.) and with a low cap on base damage and having to split str and int as our DPS stats we have a output from our spells and combat arts. If we are to add DPS to a raid or are intended to hold aggro through DPS hate generation. then this would need to be increased.We are also at the bottom of the ladder among plate tanks for tanking ability and damage deflection and absorbtion. It is also argueable that we are below brawlers once they achieve thier mythical epics as both have strong defensive properties. again this partially stems from a dillution of the gear available to us which primarily has 3 stats and in order to maintain intelligence for our spells we are forced to give up agility. additionally very few Items that feature int will have defense or parry. secondly our defensive stance offers us Wisdom which is not a desired stat for a tank class and with the exception of paladin whom gains mana from this stat is often the lowest priority stat among tanks classes. if the Dev team feels that damage is not our strength, then we would need an increase in our defensive ability in order to function in a raid setting.A third option and less popular option than the first 2 is a focus on increasing out utility. currently our raidwide buff generally is near useless as most spell casters hover around the cap for + spell damage on all but thier slowest spells (they are flashy but generally ineffective in a raid environment) aside from this buff we offer little in the sense of raid utility. If the dev team chose this route, they would need to greatly increase our utility to a raid on par with a bard in order to place some balance among a raid environment. the issue at hand is our place within a raid force and our inability to make even a moderate argument for a spot within a raid when there are 3 other classes in our same archtype which do everything we do better than we are capable of.This is purely a raid issue, in heroic groups we are passable, not quite as good as the other 3 classes but close enough that we are allowed to enjoy heroic content. the margin really widens however when encountering Epic content. I would really appreciate the opportunity to use the skills I have developed to challenge the high end content of the game, even if that means re-learning my class a bit.thank you.

Tiberuis

05-10-2008, 02:19 AM

Nice parse Phank. I have seen some very similar ACT numbers lately in Temple of Kor'Sha, lol(Similar in terms of the SK being at the bottom of the parse, that is).I like your post Melina, and I agree on most of your points.The simple fact of the matter is that SK's are not currently balanced with the other plate tank classes, in particular since the launch of ROK. The other plate tank classes are stronger at tanking and DPS. It just becomes more painfully obvious in a raid setting. We are 4th by a long shot.Almost everyone seems to agree that our main deficiencies are 1) DPS , 2) Aggro , 3) Utility , and 4) Defensive Capability.To start by fixing and our 1) DPS would also help to address our 2) Aggro. Seems like a logical place to start, if one were to consider balancing measures for our class.<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Lord Hackenslash

05-10-2008, 03:29 AM

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote>To start by fixing and our 1) DPS would also help to address our 2) Aggro. Seems like a logical place to start, if one were to consider balancing measures for our class.</blockquote>Personally i would like a litte dps and some avoidance but frankly if the devs are afraid that we might infringe on the realm of pure DPS classes. I wanted to present several options. I hesitate to emphasize aggro without an increas in avoidance as i feel without that being addressed simultaneously that would serve to make us less wanted on raids as we would be known as the average DPS cannot control aggro. without an increase in avoidance, tanking is near impossible unless content is already trivial for your raid force. T1 can be done by pretty much anyone once broken, I am not sure i could even tank better than a brigand as they have us now.

Tiberuis

05-12-2008, 11:06 AM

Here is the Official EQ2 Class Description for the SK :"Shadowknights are malevolent crusaders who wreak fear, hate and despair upon all who would oppose them. In addition to their formidable martial art skills, Shadowknights conjure dark magic with which they can enhance their abilities and drain away the life force of their enemies.""formidable martial art skills" does not equal a 12-14th position of 24 on the damage parse. Especially when the Zerkers and Guardians are parsing in the top 4-8 postions easily and consistently on a raid. Our DPS is seriously underpowered and imbalanced with the other plate tank classes."Shadowknights are malevolent crusaders who wreak fear, hate and despair upon all who would oppose them." LOL, not lately we don't. The only despair you will find is on these forum posts. We are gimped in comparison to the other plate tank classes, totally imbalanced in tanking and DPS capability."conjure dark magic with which they can enhance their abilities and drain away the life force of their enemies." Life force = hit points. If you want to drain an enemies life force, roll a Guardian or Zerker. They out DPS the heck out of the SK class by a long shot. And they have superior defensive tanking abilities at the base level!

nirate

05-12-2008, 03:03 PM

I like how i keep seeing people say SKs are the 25th person needed on raids, One of the most made fun of classes, next to pallys, and yet the dev that COULD and SHOULD care, brushes the whole problem off. The only reason i have logged on my 80 sk in the last month was to mentor an alt.

Giral

05-14-2008, 11:37 AM

Aeralik: A lot of classes could use a little bit of attention like the rangers and coercers. However, at the moment there are no plans for anything as radical as those two. Thats not to say there won't be anything done but it will probably be smaller changes for the next few updates.what i see when i read this is that the dev's will go off on another route, they won't actualy bring Sk's up with other classes, most likely they will lower warriors dps/aviod by some band aid fix, Sk's might see a minor tweak here and there,but again probably not 1 idea from the high level endgame sk's will be used, instead they will make obscure changes to some sk abilities that might help out a little but once again in the long run will wind up falling behind like deathmarch and Harmtouch have.its plain as day for anyone in t-8 raids that sk's are behind in all 3 catagories to other tanks for Dps,def,agro, there are so many posts on so many forums once again about sk's its just gotten to a point that Sk's are Sick and tired of Band aid fixes, of constantly being behind the 8-ball, no we dont need Radical changes like Coercers, but we do need 3 changes to help us fill our CORE role equaly to other Plate tanks Def/Agro/DPS. i dont mind Workin my [Removed for Content] off to do it and why i love my Sk's, but my Hardwork should atleast make me equal to other tanks Sk forums aren't like other forums, we do not sit here and whine on a day to day basis, we take what we have and make it work, but when it gets to the point it is now ,when we have pushed everything to the Limit and we come up Lacking and no way around it , we come to our Forums and explain our issue, Read back thru the SK forums, you will see that there aren't many Whine threads, 99% of them are taken care of by other SK's explaining how to do things, its when it gets to the point it is now where you have lots of endgame sk's in raid guilds telling you that we do need some boosts to keep us competative and you dont see ANY sk's saying try this or do this to make it work, that you know there is no work around, they is no way to get more out of the class, we have Hit a Wall with our class skills/aa/abilities and there is no work around to be had , and that is why we need some increases/tweaks/changes to SK skills/aa's/abilities ,,, we Do not need a Band aid fix or other classes Nerfed. anyway i'm done posting about it, we shall see what is in store for sk's with the LU 46. think this will be the melting point if non-radical but serious tweaks arent made < some Minor tweaks can be all we need to equal the playing field and keep us in competition if the Minor changes are done correctly(No Band aid fixes,actual fixes that will continue in the Long term) NO we dont need radical changes like Coercers but we do need Real fixes , alot of the Sk issue's aren't new, they have just been made more obvious by ROK. ( Def/Agro/DPS/AA's/Stances/Tuant over time/Interupts/...1/2spells and half CA's/,,,,4 stats needed/lack of Gear/lack of 2handed weopons/Need seperate Gear to DPS and seperate gear to MT and seperate gear to OT,need seperate AA's for tanking/seperate Aa's for DPS/Deathtouch way underpowered/syphon hate underpowered/reaver underpowered/Lifetaps in raid underpowered/no way to increase Lifetaps = to +Heal And more and more and more the list goes on with all the negatives the Sk class has working against it, we dont need Radical changes BUT we do need the Correct Tweaks to last in the long run so SK's never fall behind again. )

skycruise

05-14-2008, 12:59 PM

If you look at just DPS, our SK class often shows up between the bottom of the Parse or the middle.I have boosted spell dmg, combat dmg and str and int and found that I would show up in the middle to the top portion of the parse. Makes sense, right?There are certain spells to avoid casting, though in order to do this, and ussually at the detriment to your group as a whole.The point I am trying to make is that SK's help other classes with their DPS, which makes the SK show up lower on the DPS parse.I see the sk's strongest place to be a MA. And Casting DM just before the MT pulls the mob can make for a good fight without the initial aggro pull. (The other best time to cast DM is when the mobs is at 20% health.)For SK to be a MT, we would need a ton more defensive boosts. Next time you are in a group and you have a parser running, try eliminating the spells that lower the mit of the mob to certain physical attacks and even the disease attacks. Guaranteed the other classes that use Physical attacks or Disease based attacks will not parse as high. Same with the Grave Blessing.. this lowers your dps, and raises the dps of the tank in that it causes the mob to take damage when hit. little thigns like that when combined really do add up and lower us on the dps parse. No one seems to look at the benefit that those other spells do for the group as a whole.

Tiberuis

05-14-2008, 02:51 PM

<cite>skycruise wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you look at just DPS, our SK class often shows up between the bottom of the Parse or the middle.I have boosted spell dmg, combat dmg and str and int and found that I would show up in the middle to the top portion of the parse. Makes sense, right?There are certain spells to avoid casting, though in order to do this, and ussually at the detriment to your group as a whole.The point I am trying to make is that SK's help other classes with their DPS, which makes the SK show up lower on the DPS parse.I see the sk's strongest place to be a MA. And Casting DM just before the MT pulls the mob can make for a good fight without the initial aggro pull. (The other best time to cast DM is when the mobs is at 20% health.)For SK to be a MT, we would need a ton more defensive boosts. Next time you are in a group and you have a parser running, try eliminating the spells that lower the mit of the mob to certain physical attacks and even the disease attacks. Guaranteed the other classes that use Physical attacks or Disease based attacks will not parse as high. Same with the Grave Blessing.. this lowers your dps, and raises the dps of the tank in that it causes the mob to take damage when hit. little thigns like that when combined really do add up and lower us on the dps parse. No one seems to look at the benefit that those other spells do for the group as a whole. </blockquote>If you are a skilled player, and you spend the time and energy to make sure your SK is well equipped, AA'ed and Mastered, there is no doubt that the SK can be quite useful, and effective, in a group instance type setting.Having said that, the other plate tank classes are better at tanking and DPS than an SK in a group environment. The SK class is not currently balanced with the other plate tank classes, period. We are 4th by a long shot.Where 4th place amoungst the plate tank classes becomes most obvious, and most frustrating, is in a raid environment. We are not even close to the tanking or DPS ability of the other plate tank classes.EQ2 has some of the best end-game raid content in the MMORPG world. For those of us that like to level up our SK class in expansion, run all of the instances, and get geared up for the ULTIMATE EQ2 BATTLES - RAIDS! - this is an unbelievably frustrating position to be in. All we want is for our class to be balanced with the other plate tank classes. I do not think it is an unreasonable thing to ask the Dev's for.So come on Dev's, please step up to the "plate," and FIX THE SK CLASS!<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />