Hostage: What!?

[Roald]

<p>So the Coercer hostage spell was recently changed to trigger off Melee Attacks.</p><p>Now, I pressed 'k' today, and couldn't find a section called combat arts. Oh wait, that's right! We get no inherent melee abilities other than auto attack. </p><p>So what exactly was the logic for this change? Apart from nerfing the damage and recast of a key spell that was meant to bring the class inline with other classes, particularly Illys, you now make it proc of Melee attacks?</p><p>I realise that it used to proc off melee attacks from the target, but this change is horrible for all non-raiding Coercers. Even the raiders won't be happy with a huge damage reduction and recast lengthening.</p><p>I mainly solo PvP, and with resists and Melee class DPS it was already tough enough. This change almost negates the value of this spell entirely for me.</p><p>So, make this proc off Melee attacks AND spells. In raiding this won't make any difference to DPS (god forbid we actually outparse an Illy once in a while), seeing as it will always get proc'd completely before the recast, probably in the first second. But making it proc of spells aswell as Melee attacks will actually make this not a serious nerf for us PvPers/Soloers.</p><p>Thanks.</p>

[Prrasha]

Dunno why you have to make this coercer-vs-illusionist, but oh well.  When in Rome...The illy's comparable proc attack is placed on a group member, and triggers 3 times off of ... melee attacks!While the coercer has the choice of picking up a melee pet, the illy only gets another illy as a pet.  Set "/pet melee" and cast Prismatic Adornment on your Personae, and it *might* proc 2 of the 3 triggers before the spell expires; usually just one, in my experience (it's got a horrible hit rate and chain-casts spells).  I cast it on myself and wade in if I'm soloing something I can stand to be in melee with, else I just fight from range and don't use the spell.In a group... well duh, there's probably someone in melee to cast it on.I fail to see where illusionists have an advantage, here.

[Lord Montague]

<p>I can see where it makes a difference most is in the solo game, but beyond that it won't make a difference as in group and raid settings where there is no shortage of melee attacks to make the triggers go off.  To me, I'm not sure I agree with it a lot but it's something I can work around and deal with.  Then again, I don't play PVP and that is an entirely different matter.</p>

[Roald]

<cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dunno why you have to make this coercer-vs-illusionist, but oh well.  When in Rome...</blockquote><p>I didn't. My OP was very much focused on solo play, primarily solo PvP.</p><p><cite>Seirrah@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I can see where it makes a difference most is in the solo game, but beyond that it won't make a difference as in group and raid settings where there is no shortage of melee attacks to make the triggers go off.  To me, I'm not sure I agree with it a lot but it's something I can work around and deal with.  Then again, I don't play PVP and that is an entirely different matter.</p></blockquote><p>Well, that's pretty much exactly what I'm saying. It will have a negative impact on our soloing ability (compared with the first patch notes). Even the first initial test notes which everyone perceived to be a great upgrade were a nerf to our Solo PvP capacity, it just got even worse with this one.</p><p>The way this is panning out, I'm just hoping AoC devs have PvP in mind (even as an afterthought would be nice) when making massive changes <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[ShadowMunkie]

Hostage was mainly changed to melee because it was melee originally. There isn't any reason not to have it melee we can still produce good damage without it. Just charm a pet or use possess essence to use hostage or do what I do already and kick the mobs face in.

[Jesdyr]

<cite>Milambers@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Even the first initial test notes which everyone perceived to be a great upgrade were a nerf to our Solo PvP capacity, it just got even worse with this one.<p>The way this is panning out, I'm just hoping AoC devs have PvP in mind (even as an afterthought would be nice) when making massive changes <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>The PvP servers are the exception servers and most of the players couldn't care less what happens there as long as it does not effect the normal servers. Coercers have already taken a hit because of the PvP servers, I would hate to see it happen again.

[Grimlux]

Im happy for this change. Gonna log on later to test Spellblade Spec.

[Aeralik]

I initially wanted them to trigger mainly off the coercers spell attacks since they are a mage based class.  On further review though, there is just too much triggering from the hostile spell hits.  When you think about it a coercer in a group will have some sort of melee class to trigger the reactive within the duration.  The solo coercer will more than likely have a charmed pet or at high levels the possessed essence pet both of which will trigger Hostage as well.  The old way was nice but a little too nice so this should spread things around a bit rather than huge spikes from triggering on a spell hit.

[Maroger]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I initially wanted them to trigger mainly off the coercers spell attacks since they are a mage based class.  On further review though, there is just too much triggering from the hostile spell hits.  When you think about it a coercer in a group will have some sort of melee class to trigger the reactive within the duration.  The solo coercer will more than likely have a charmed pet or at high levels the possessed essence pet both of which will trigger Hostage as well.  The old way was nice but a little too nice so this should spread things around a bit rather than huge spikes from triggering on a spell hit.</blockquote><p>I thought that coercer were getting some "love" -- sounds like another NERF to me - I only solo and this really hurts me. I never raid or group and this is a big hit for me.</p><p>Please reconsider this decision -- it hurts soloers too much -- esp. along with the nerfed pets that Charm gives us. </p><p>If you want us to melee while soloing -- please then allow us to wear chained armor or at least leather. We are a mage class NOT a melee class so please don't turn us into a melee class.</p>

[Jesdyr]

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>sounds like another NERF to me - I only solo and this really hurts me. </p></blockquote>How ? Old hostage proc'd off a mob hitting someone with MELEENew hostage Proc's off a mob being HIT with MELEEEither way, something is within melee range. At least now the spell is not blocked by STUN.

[nirate]

The whole proc of melee will be a thorn in my side but i still have ways to deal with it and make it just as effective as its older version that proced off spells.

[Orienne]

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I initially wanted them to trigger mainly off the coercers spell attacks since they are a mage based class.  On further review though, there is just too much triggering from the hostile spell hits.  When you think about it a coercer in a group will have some sort of melee class to trigger the reactive within the duration.  The solo coercer will more than likely have a charmed pet or at high levels the possessed essence pet both of which will trigger Hostage as well.  The old way was nice but a little too nice so this should spread things around a bit rather than huge spikes from triggering on a spell hit.</blockquote><p>I thought that coercer were getting some "love" -- sounds like another NERF to me - I only solo and this really hurts me. I never raid or group and this is a big hit for me.</p><p>Please reconsider this decision -- it hurts soloers too much -- esp. along with the nerfed pets that Charm gives us. </p><p>If you want us to melee while soloing -- please then allow us to wear chained armor or at least leather. We are a mage class NOT a melee class so please don't turn us into a melee class.</p></blockquote><p>I disagree that this is a nerf. Now I have no idea how you play while solo, but I highly doubt that you do this without the aid of a pet very often, if at all. Charm a pet (or essence) and send it in on the mob while you are fighting it and you will trigger your Hostage. There's really no need for you to be in there meleeing mobs, unless that's your playstyle. </p>

[KamidariTuibumbi]

<cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I initially wanted them to trigger mainly off the coercers spell attacks since they are a mage based class.  On further review though, there is just too much triggering from the hostile spell hits.  When you think about it a coercer in a group will have some sort of melee class to trigger the reactive within the duration.  The solo coercer will more than likely have a charmed pet or at high levels the possessed essence pet both of which will trigger Hostage as well.  The old way was nice but a little too nice so this should spread things around a bit rather than huge spikes from triggering on a spell hit.</blockquote><p>I thought that coercer were getting some "love" -- sounds like another NERF to me - I only solo and this really hurts me. I never raid or group and this is a big hit for me.</p><p>Please reconsider this decision -- it hurts soloers too much -- esp. along with the nerfed pets that Charm gives us. </p><p>If you want us to melee while soloing -- please then allow us to wear chained armor or at least leather. We are a mage class NOT a melee class so please don't turn us into a melee class.</p></blockquote>Have you actually played with the changes on test?  Yes, we're toned down from what it was like in the first round of test tweaks, but that was pretty obviously overpowered.  Even with the latest changes, I still parse much higher on test than I do on live.

[Roald]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I initially wanted them to trigger mainly off the coercers spell attacks since they are a mage based class.  On further review though, there is just too much triggering from the hostile spell hits.  When you think about it a coercer in a group will have some sort of melee class to trigger the reactive within the duration.  The solo coercer will more than likely have a charmed pet or at high levels the possessed essence pet both of which will trigger Hostage as well.  The old way was nice but a little too nice so this should spread things around a bit rather than huge spikes from triggering on a spell hit.</blockquote><p>Yes, I understand this from a PvE standpoint. I'm still not 100% sure why the damage/recast was nerfed so much, but I can see why it was turned to Melee.</p><p>In PvP however, a lot of fights with melee classes are over in seconds. Before these changes, all hostage procs would trigger in a matter of seconds, meaning that sometimes our DPS was actually great enough for us to win the fight.</p><p>After this change, in this very short time I'm now going to have to land 5 spells (see numerous resist threads on the PvP forums) and hit the person 5 times with Melee to do the same amount of damage, possibly less.</p><p>Its fairly clear this is going to be a massive nerf to Solo PvP, to a class that was already one of the hardest to excel at. I guess it just proves me point, I need to go to a game where PvP is actually considered in changes.</p><p>And no Jesder, Coercers have never taken a hit due to the PvP servers.</p>

[Rulnest]

<p>Ok i understand this is easier to proc then it used to be, but come on you lowered the damage of the spell and doubled the recast time.  I am about ready to say  "PLEASE stop fixing our classes".  Yes you raised our horible parses but your lowering our good parses also.  In a best case (which i admit is rarely met) this spell now does less then half the damage it did before you touched it.  THANKS for raising our dps. LOL</p><p>Rulcer 73 coercer  permafrost.</p>

[Maroger]

<cite>Orienne wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I initially wanted them to trigger mainly off the coercers spell attacks since they are a mage based class.  On further review though, there is just too much triggering from the hostile spell hits.  When you think about it a coercer in a group will have some sort of melee class to trigger the reactive within the duration.  The solo coercer will more than likely have a charmed pet or at high levels the possessed essence pet both of which will trigger Hostage as well.  The old way was nice but a little too nice so this should spread things around a bit rather than huge spikes from triggering on a spell hit.</blockquote><p>I thought that coercer were getting some "love" -- sounds like another NERF to me - I only solo and this really hurts me. I never raid or group and this is a big hit for me.</p><p>Please reconsider this decision -- it hurts soloers too much -- esp. along with the nerfed pets that Charm gives us. </p><p>If you want us to melee while soloing -- please then allow us to wear chained armor or at least leather. We are a mage class NOT a melee class so please don't turn us into a melee class.</p></blockquote><p>I disagree that this is a nerf. Now I have no idea how you play while solo, but I highly doubt that you do this without the aid of a pet very often, if at all. Charm a pet (or essence) and send it in on the mob while you are fighting it and you will trigger your Hostage. There's really no need for you to be in there meleeing mobs, unless that's your playstyle. </p></blockquote><p>I prefer a mage pet if I get one -- a lot of times I just root and nuke -- I get sick of Charm Breaking or having the charmed pet die because it so weak.  And yes it seems that I do end up having to melee myself more than I like.  A lot of best damage spells give me intense aggro and the pet can never hold aggro  -- I had an Enchanter in EQLIVE and I can believe how pathetic the enchanters are in EQ2 -- they either eliminated or nerfed are best spells. WE HAVE NO DIRE CHARM. </p><p>The emphasis has been all on group and raid usage and soloers are really ignored or nerfed by ALL these changes.  They started out great and then NERF sent it and dps got lowered and casting times increased etc. etc. Those really hurt a soloer. I don't think the Developers have thought once about the impact of changes on soloers. </p>

[Andu]

Lol, so you get a slightly more flexible version of one of the the Illusionists best spells and you're whining about it. Tell you what, if you don't want it, we'll have it instead of the current proposal for drain conciousness.Honestly, I'm no Aeralik fan but for the life of me I bet he's wondering why he bothers. I mean, it's like Cataclysmic Mind was just awesome for soloing before. Surely you have to look at the changes as a whole?

[pebyr]

well oddly enough, we do have a spell that does melee damage.  Hostage on the mob, and then of all things, puppetmaster.  Puppetmaster swarm pets do melee damage and fire off hostage triggers in seconds.  Yes this does work, and does give puppetmaster a use in solo play.  I used this to take down one of the sabretooth's in kj in seconds.  Not quite as devastating as it was before, since it does take another spell, but doable.  This is the helpful part of doing /testcopy, so you can get a head start on trying out things before it goes live.  Might save some stress.Problem before was hostage + spell curse + cataclysmic mind = such a huge amount of damage, that it was going to just get nerfed in the end anyways.

[Rijacki]

<cite>pebyr wrote:</cite><blockquote>well oddly enough, we do have a spell that does melee damage.  Hostage on the mob, and then of all things, puppetmaster.  Puppetmaster swarm pets do melee damage and fire off hostage triggers in seconds.  Yes this does work, and does give puppetmaster a use in solo play.  I used this to take down one of the sabretooth's in kj in seconds.  Not quite as devastating as it was before, since it does take another spell, but doable.  This is the helpful part of doing /testcopy, so you can get a head start on trying out things before it goes live.  Might save some stress.Problem before was hostage + spell curse + cataclysmic mind = such a huge amount of damage, that it was going to just get nerfed in the end anyways.</blockquote>Before, I would try to position my Puppetmaster casts that they would trigger the old reactives (the ones currently on Live) because their resistances are far less than most players in a raid or group.  Now.. Puppetmaster can still be used to trigger the reactives *laugh*Maroger, on Live, when you had something rooted and set up for you and a charmed pet to nuke it, how was Hostage triggered?  On Live, currently, it requires the target to do -melee- damage to you or an ally.  If it was rooted, how was it doing melee damage to you? How is this that great of a change from what is on Live?The recasts are the only thing I really hope get adjusted again, not the damage type required to trigger it.

[Alfgand]

<cite>Jesdyr@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Maroger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>sounds like another NERF to me - I only solo and this really hurts me. </p></blockquote>How ? Old hostage proc'd off a mob hitting someone with MELEENew hostage Proc's off a mob being HIT with MELEEEither way, something is within melee range. At least now the spell is not blocked by STUN. </blockquote><p>I agree with Jesdyr and he makes the important point that at least our stuns will not lower our DPS anymore. I would have prefered it the original test way with proc on spell but I can live with this.</p>