Sleight of Hand <---> ( Yes Another Post ) [Archive]

Trojenn

05-07-2008, 04:06 AM

I realize this is like the 50th Post on Sleight of Hand but geese, If SoE would listen to us on the matter maybe we can stop spamming forums with the posts on Sleight of Hand. So a recap on earlier discussions.#1 : This spell is pointless, Swashbucklers already have the most powerful hate transfer in the game. We do not have major issues with agro and since the Epic weapons it has increased that transfer. #2 : With current raid setups consisting of a Main Tank grp with Guardian Templar Defiler Dirge Coercer and Swash, you rarely see people in raid pull agro from the tank, thus making making the agro swap yet again pointless.#3 : The spell is useless on Memory Wipes. For example, Doomcoil Memwipes and goes for a random person towards the back on the room and Simple taunting will retrieve Doomcoil back to its previouse target and location. Trust me I have tested the spell on this mob in multiple ways and it does not work.#4 : This spell is useless while grping, and it was my understanding that this spell was supposed to be a class defining Spell.List of Other Scout level 80 spells.Predator:Assasin = Fatal Follow Up - Single target melee attack used after a stealth attack. Damage goes up for every stealth attack landed in the previous 10 seconds.Ranger = Coverage - Very short buff that places ranger into stealth and increases the damage of the next stealth ranged shot by a medium amount. Must be used after a stealth and/or positional ranged attack.Rouge:Brigand = Thieves Guild - Buff on a non-rogue/predator group member that increases their resistance debuffs by a significant percent.Swasbuckler = Sleight of Hand - Swaps hate positions with another player vs. the enemy they have targeted. Can't be cast on that person again for 2 mins. ( Is the Swashbuckler Dev a Brig or an Assasin. It might explain things )I realize that scouts are based on tiers of DPS, with Rangers and Assasins being T1 and Brigs and Swashs being T2. But taking into affect that Brigs get a single target grp buff that increases Debuffs of the target of spell ( like they don't debuff a mob enough on there own) we get something that is not needed in grping or raiding for that matter. Also figuring that Rouges subclasses were supposed to be sister classes I see the main difference between Brigands and Swashs vs what they have to offer. Brigs Debuff Defense : Swash Debuffs Offense. IMO I would have settled with a single target buff that increased the debuffs for offensive skills of target of spell. (IE:Sleight of hand - Buff on a non-rogue/predator group member that increases their offensive skill debuffs by a significant percent. ) atleast this would have kept the classes equal in what each specific class had to offer.I can list all lvl 80 class spells and can honestly say that 90% of them have use in either raid or grp, ours has neither. SoE if you can please show me a swashbuckler that consitantly uses this spell and show me an instance in witch this spell should be used I would be greatful. I know SoE reads these forums daily and comments on multiple Posts. I have yet to see a reply to ANY of the Sleight of Hand posts since the original fix supposedly went through. Domino I know you are the tradeskill Dev but geese, tell Gnobrin that he can reply to this or Hightower for that matter, at this point and time I don't care who replys to this post. Anyways, this is just another post on Sleight of Hand and its uber usefullness to us swashis as a class defining spell. WooT. ( Sarcasm off )

Rippitt

05-07-2008, 12:16 PM

Shrug, I used it alot when it actually WORKED. It was handy on memwiping mobs.

Dreadpatch

05-07-2008, 01:18 PM

/agree with OP. His comments are well put. While I will say without a doubt we are not a broken class by any stretch, it's not appropriate to have our level 80 class defining spell be useless. While I appreciate the fixes being concentrated in areas where it really was necessary (ranger, coercer), would be nice to have our 80 spell on my hotbar. Please take the time to do something, anything with it that will make it useful. Thanks so much!!! Dreadpatch 80 Swashy on Nektulos

RingleToo

05-07-2008, 07:37 PM

I'll say again (and keep saying lol), replace this spell and/or give us something more appropriate and useful to our class. Even if it did get fixed (and I don't think it's broken actually), so what? The swashy class defining spell - if that is what it's supposed to be - shouldn't be hate transfer. That's what defines a swashy - hate transfer? I just can't see my swashy as a hate monger lol1. Even if it did work, it's primary use is in raids. Oops...you're not a raider? Too bad, too sad. A class defining spell, imo, should be of benefit in both raid/group and solo play.2. Besides, why do I want some X4 epic mob coming after me? Tanks are supposed to die, not swashies lol

Steve11418

05-07-2008, 09:42 PM

/sign.Just have it summon a parrot that peels the mob for 10sec, has enough HP to survive solo mobs for full duration, to take 4-5 hits from heroic or a 1 or 2 hits from an epic.Solo.Can tank a mob for you for 10sec then depops.Groups.Can be used to let healers catch up on the healing. When the parrot dies it increase threat positions of "Fighters" AOE by 1.Raid.Acts basically as an intercept taking a hit or two (can also save someone if they pull aggro). When the parrot dies it increase threat positions of "Fighters" AOE by 1.Overall:This would effectively reduce the damage done to the MT or help manage aggro which is what defines us swashbucklers. Reuse could be every 2 min.Edit: The duration and HP of the parrot could depend on spell quality:Master1 - 10 secAdept3 - 8 secAdept1 - 6 secApp4 - 4 sec.

Rippitt

05-08-2008, 02:13 AM

I'm perfectly alright with something aggro related, it just needs to work.

Katanalla

05-08-2008, 05:31 PM

I vote for like even a 20 second duration, 5minute recast all auto attack hits will do maximal damage replacement.Or, in the event the former cannot be fulfilled, the ability to summon Taco Bell.Also, we are rogues, not the color red

ntommyb

05-09-2008, 12:03 AM

I'm not reading this whole thread but I can tell you I'm getting mixed results with SoH. I currently put it in a macro so I can type the name of the person I want it to effect into it, it opens a field for that in the macro. All I've had to do is push to the top of the hate list then spam it and swap with the tank. If the tank goes down normally I'm at the top of the hate list, if I can live long enough for him to get a rez I can swap it back to the tank np and push him right to the top of the list in a hurry. For some reason it doesn't even always cast thoughAnyway I guess the way it works is, if you're the top of the hate list you swap with whoever's in the macro, easy I've seen this work a thousand times its just a controlled deaggro.If the mob runs after the crazy dps wizard then you can pull the mob back on you instead of relying on the dumb wizard to run back to the tank now you have aggro AT the tank. Hideaway and hope the tank got enough aggro by that time to take it (I've never made this work right yet)

ntommyb

05-09-2008, 12:08 AM

Also I'd like to add that this spell is extremely useful when you're forming up for a raid in QH if the raid leader is a tank put him into the macro then go attack the epic then SoH him, its really funny

Meinen

05-09-2008, 04:41 PM

how can you spam it? its got a 30 sec recast (not to mention you can't cast on the same person for 2+min), so the only spam your doing is spamming group or raid with your macro text for 30 sec. SoE has no idea what a swashy class is..since they don't really know us, they figure "Hey, lets give those guys with cool hats some more deaggro stuff!!" So, they took hideaway and rescue did some funky stuff to it to make even the mobs confused and said, "Yeah, thats class defining, we'll go with that. great job fookstick dev #1" .....<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> Gee...thanks...I loved being a swash and hate to leave EQ2, but there are so many problems with this game its not even funny. good luck, i hope it all gets fixed or replaced with something better. And no, you can't have my stuff. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

ntommyb

05-09-2008, 10:24 PM

by spam it i mean hit it until it goes off, sometimes I have things cued and I have to hit it a couple times to uncue the other stuff. Naturally its my least used CA as a matter of fact if it was working perfectly and reliably I may have seen 1 or two times in the last month that I could use it in. I've used it but it by no means is class defining nor would I be less of a swash if I didn't even have it hot bared so imo it fails but it has some uses just not many

OutcastBlade

05-12-2008, 05:28 PM

In a raid: I use it for helping the MA to get aggro when the MT dies, and then for the MT to re-establish aggro when he is back up. It effectively acts as another taunt for the tank. How well this works remains to be seen, but then every little bit helps. We've only just cleared PR to the point where we can farm the place now, so our tanks are not fully raid geared at the moment, which means our tanks die and they die alot. We can keep in the fight, but the tanks still die ;pYou're right tho, on Doomcoil its utterly useless.In a group: I use it to help get hate off of the dps class that rips aggro. Again it acts as another taunt for the tank.SoH works through targetting the mob. It has a 30 second recast, which means that if the mob is bouncing around, I can use SoH quite rapidly, to either help detaunt off of an overly zealous dps, or taunt for a tank struggling with hate. As such, I do not have a macro with a specific target in mind. I just keep an eye on who the mob is targetting and use it based on that. I don't think hate swapping works as intended. Because I always take hits and die after using it. And yes when I get aggro I hit my /tar MT hotkey and hit SoH. I survive for several hits and then I die. Which to me means it aint working in that regard.I think it's a badass skill. For the 2min immunity I'd prefer that the hate taunt/detaunt be in the 2000s to 3000s and not the 1000s for M1. Make the hate taunt/detaunt more potent, and it will be the perfect swashy skill imo.

Trojenn

05-14-2008, 01:38 AM

To the last post: ^The taunt on the spell is useless, a 1.5K taunt every two minutes is about as useful as our Mez. Yes it supposedly <--Supposedly transfers our current hate to the tank but I have yet to see this work even once. The only time i have ever seen it work was when it was like a rescue (which was KICK A**) and it actualy did swap hate positions with the person of target of spell. But for saying that giving the tank an xtra 1.5K Taunt every two minutes is class defining is just stupid, and if you think it is class defining then i would suggest rerolling another toon besides a swash because you have no idea what a swash is.

OutcastBlade

05-14-2008, 10:12 PM

Then tell me what a swash is then... otherwise learn to read.What did I say would make this the perfect swashy skill? Make the taunt/detaunt more potent, right? I think thats what I said, although now I look at it and think that the values I gave are a little low. For the 2min immunity, get rid of the useless hate swapping, increase to 10 to 15k hate taunt/detaunt which would be much more in line with a swashy's role as hate transfer in a raid. Keep the mob targetted, and hit SoH every time the target of the mob changes, or everytime it refreshes when MT still has its attention.In the last few raids I have been in, I have been in the dps group since our MT group is a guard, 3 healer, dirge, coercer group. So my hate transfer is useless. Sleight of Hand, if greatly improved as far as numbers go, would be a perfect substitute.

Bunion

05-18-2008, 01:43 AM

I personally have never gotten this spell to work. I tried using it on a raid this last tuesday several times, someone had gotten aggro, I used slight of hand on them and not a single time did the mob ever stop attacking them or switch to me or even switch to someone else. I have tried targeting the player directly and I have tried targeting through the mob, not once have I seen it do anything. Callus

Dreadpatch

05-19-2008, 12:53 PM

So say for the sake of argument it did work or was changed to that it would be useful in the MT raiding group. I don't raid, so I really don't give a flying crap. And since I still pay my 15 bucks a month, I feel that my level 80 class defining spell should be more useful then just the very occassional raiding situation. Change the spell already, it can't be that tough!!!

Aeralik

05-20-2008, 09:49 PM

Since the skill has been out there for awhile I am hesitant to make any major changes to it. For every vocal critic of the skill there are some who like the utility of it. It also kind of fits in with some of the swashbucklers utility. I changed some things around though in how it works internally so that going forward it should function better. Also keep in mind the flow of the game. Like if the players are close together on the hate list then they might swap for a moment but then your auto attack could easily just swap it back. I doubled the additional hate gain and loss though so that this shouldnt be as bad but in general the more hate between the two players the better it will be.

RingleToo

05-20-2008, 11:08 PM

Aeralik, with all due respect, what forum are you reading? "For every vocal critic of the skill there are some who like the utility of it."??? What does that even mean? For everyone who has said this CA is plain bad there are "some" who like it? "Some" means more then one, so you're saying that for everyone who dislikes this CA, there are even more that like it!? And the ones who dislike it are being vocal, so the ones who do like it aren't saying anything? (Which, of course, begs the question of how do you know they like it.) Because the vast majority of posts I've seen are negative.Let's assume, however, that it is a 50/50 split between those who like and dislike SoH. At best that means that you have half of the Swashy population unhappy with this CA. Not to mention that virtually ALL of those who solo or don't raid are unhappy (think about that). And that's ok with you? You think that if you did get rid of SoH and replaced it with some other "utility" CA that those who do like SoH would be as unhappy as the half (and you know it's far more then that) who dislike it?"It also kind of fits in with some of the swashbucklers utility." So "kind of" but not really? "Some" but not a lot? Our dps is utility. Our debuffs, especially, are utility. Why not pick one of those for a CA? By comparison, Hate Gain is just a small part of a Swashbuckler's utility. Especially considering that SoH is most useful only to raiders. How in the world, then, do you rationalize that Hate Gain should be the Swashbuckler defining spell?Saved this for last: "Since the skill has been out there for awhile I am hesitant to make any major changes to it." You might want to re-think that or, at least, rephrase it. Because that's the way it's always been done? You're really saying you won't change it because that's the way it's always been done???Aeralik, come on now. It's clear from your response that even you aren't really sold on SoH.

Mion da Peon

05-21-2008, 02:10 AM

Thanks for the post and attention Aeralik

Dreadpatch

05-21-2008, 08:53 AM

No offense Aeralik, because I usually like what you say/do, but your argument is bunk. I have not seen even a single post to any of the SoH posts with someone saying they like it. Even the few raiders that might find it useful state it doesn't even work in it's current state. In grouping, I would never need this spell to pull agro, I can pretty much do it at will. I have an idea, create a thread asking for swashies to back up it's usefulness and see how many posters you get. I have a coercer and love the changes, think they are great, so I'm not just here trying to be a pain. Please rethink your position on this, I don't think you bring a strong argument to the table here. It's laughable to even call this class defining. A coercer is agro control, a swashy is dps/ utility of the debuff variety, not agro control variety.

Katanalla

05-21-2008, 10:51 AM

Please reconsider Sleight of Handm Aeralik, the combat art is kinda poopy - I even took it off my hotbars to make room for the summon Rrarwrk ability.But thank you for atleast showing us some attention

Beldin_

05-21-2008, 10:55 AM

As swashy and also as ranger i simply ignore the fact that i should have a level 80 "special" <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Raidyen

05-21-2008, 12:25 PM

I think the idea is sound, but the implementation and coding is flawed. SoH should just simple work like a reverse rescue. It should just be our target drops by (insert number here) hate positions. Just a detaunt that we can use on someone else. Granted if the tank wasnt number 2 it might cause problems, but if that's the case, get a new tank. Or now that i think about it, it could work just like a rescue, giving the tank hate positions instead. The way it reads now i still don't have a clue how to use it successfully.That way the 1 or 2 people that like it now for its utility will still have that, and the rest of us will get a spell that still sucks, but will atleast work in a way that we can predict and control.I don't expect the dev's to give us any kind of debuff/dmg/useful utility spell at this point. The Dev's waited long enough now to be able to just ignore the problem and move on. So all we can hope for is that they adjust our current crappy 80 spell so it actually works when we cast it.

Trojenn

05-21-2008, 03:12 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Since the skill has been out there for awhile I am hesitant to make any major changes to it. For every vocal critic of the skill there are some who like the utility of it. It also kind of fits in with some of the swashbucklers utility. I changed some things around though in how it works internally so that going forward it should function better. Also keep in mind the flow of the game. Like if the players are close together on the hate list then they might swap for a moment but then your auto attack could easily just swap it back. I doubled the additional hate gain and loss though so that this shouldnt be as bad but in general the more hate between the two players the better it will be.</blockquote>Now that I finaly grab someoones attention ( 51 Threads later ). Aeralik, this spell is flawed in design and usefullness. Since the skill has been out there for awhile I am hesitant to make any major changes to it. Ok first off, you are saying that because this spell has been out for (x) amount of time you do not want to change or majorly revamp it. If I remember right the Dev Team has changed multiple spells over time after they had been out for 1-2 years, so why the difference in action towards SoH. The time that this spell has been out is no excuse as to why you can not change it.Secondaly,some who like the utility of it yes you might be correct but your wording or how you percieved what we posted is completely out of whack. They like the idea of the utility of it because it is an interesting CA that probably took a little work to create but thats it. I promise you 90% of the swashbuckler population lvl 80 does not use this spell and 80% prob do not even have it on there hotbars. So if you are justifieing your reasons to keep it as is, by trying to keep the 10% that think it works happy then your logic needs some rethinking. It also kind of fits in with some of the swashbucklers utility. If you are honestly going to sit there and say that our utility is hate based then maybe you could look back over the CA's of a swash and get back to us because the last time i checked, we had 2 things that delt with aggro. A hate transfer and Blame Blade ( Even rangers get a spell like blame blade). Everything else we have is Offensive Debuffs with a few Defensive Debuffs so saying this spell fits in with the utility of a swashbuckler is IMO bogus.but in general the more hate between the two players the better it will be. Well this just made me LOL in real life.But thanks again atleast you showed us that you read the thread.. Now, if i don;t see another response from you in this thread then I promise 30 more threads will be opened up <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> Peace out Aeralik

Hakthaf

05-21-2008, 09:11 PM

Well, you dont want to change the spell since its been out awhile, yet swash have been saying over and over posting their own info that this spell has not worked to its description since it was put on test server *and no im not gonna go back a couple months in posts and find links again* I'm sad the first big response to our power in awhile and to me it sounds like they are not planning on fixing this power to get the mechanic to work correctly, just changing the hate gains again. The only time this ever was used was when it worked as a rescue eating all hate, while every other time it has not worked to where it is switching agro. I have tested it a couple times in the past with my brother who is a monk where he hits the mob once and i unload gathering a lot of hate then hitting the power and nothing at all would happen, also tried going the other way and nothing. This is not a issue of it needs more agro taped to it, this needs to have its basic mechanic either reworded so we know what its really doing or fixed.

Ghalslayt

05-22-2008, 06:45 AM

I wish a dev would roll up a swashbuckler and try this skill out just to see it does not work and has absolutely no purpose.

Dreadpatch

05-22-2008, 09:09 AM

Hmm.. I've read every post on this, several of them, and am still waiting to hear from that swashie Aeralik speaks of that likes or even uses this spell. Will some swashy step forward and vouch for it? Still waiting.

Katanalla

05-22-2008, 10:03 AM

<cite>Dreadpatch wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmm.. I've read every post on this, several of them, and am still waiting to hear from that swashie Aeralik speaks of that likes or even uses this spell. Will some swashy step forward and vouch for it? Still waiting.</blockquote>Okay, I admit it, I bribed all the swashies who like the CA not to post their true feelings. <cite><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></cite>

Steve11418

05-22-2008, 10:07 PM

Did I miss somthing... does the spell work now?Since it was changed from a super rescue I have been unable to use the spell to change hate positions. I will however try testing it again.As for liking the spell... I will admit that upon initially reading the description I liked the idea. But upon further analysis:SOLO - Provides 0% usability when soloing. (But so do a number of the other class 80 specials)GROUP - If I could get it to work... It would be an additional single target de-aggro. Most Heroic trash do not last long enough to warrant using this spell... so maybe on name (which is about 1 in 20 fights?) So i rate this as 5% usability in groups.RAIDS - Allows us a single target de-aggro or perhapses able to safe a squishy? (Providing I could get it to work) In our raid force our Guardian does not lose aggro often. But might be usefull for memwipe mobs once per fight... so Pawbuster, Twins, Doomcoil. So I would use it maybe 5 times a week raiding? Not sure how many mobs we kill in raids perhapses 50? So I give it 10% usability in raids for a casual raider.So in conclusion this spell has a usability of between 5% and 10% for me.In comparrison my Warden uses it fairy every fight every time its up so it 100% An excellent spell.

Faenril

05-23-2008, 04:36 AM

+1 Unhappy swashy. I don't use it. Just to remind Aeralik what the "silent minority" actually think of this spell. If it worked, I would consider it more a fun spell than anything else (understand useful).

Dreadpatch

05-23-2008, 10:51 AM

Still waiting for that one thumbs up, This silent majority is really silent. I figured several people who are level 80 who are willing to take the time to make comments to improve the game should be ignored. I mean after all, we did take the time to level the class to 80. I'm having a hard time believing all these 80 swashies don't understand the class. We ARE the class... Bottom line is that even if you make the spell work, it's so situational it's still basically useless. How about a hate buff for the tank? One we can cast on him that acts like an avoid, only grants hate procs? I appreciate the effort for the original spell and the originality, however it's just not practical for what our class does. If you want to give us another hate manipulator (I don't really agree), that's fine, but at least give us something useful from a hate stand point.

Errolflynn

05-23-2008, 10:57 AM

I haven't even bothered to get this spell yet. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Ocello

05-23-2008, 11:13 AM

My Swashy is nowhere near the level to get Sleight of Hand yet, but I thought it at least SOUNDED cool. Giving hate to whoever I want seemed like an OK idea. I mean, if the tank is falling, I can take it for a couple seconds. If a healer/mage/fellow scout takes aggro, I can give it back to the Tank. In theory it sounds cool. Maybe that's all the devs are going on. But does it not work this way? I've heard it is broken. Itd be nice to know.My main is a monk, and it seems like it is similar to Peel (altho the swash does not have anything like Tsunami -to my knowledge-) except it is controlled who gets it back. On my monk I can FD when needed but its a crapshoot who gets the mob after that./shrug i can see how this at least sounded cool to the devs, whether it not it was implemented correctly is another thing.

Katanalla

05-23-2008, 01:12 PM

<cite>Kamaala@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>My Swashy is nowhere near the level to get Sleight of Hand yet, but I thought it at least SOUNDED cool. Giving hate to whoever I want seemed like an OK idea. I mean, if the tank is falling, I can take it for a couple seconds. If a healer/mage/fellow scout takes aggro, I can give it back to the Tank. In theory it sounds cool. Maybe that's all the devs are going on. But does it not work this way? I've heard it is broken. Itd be nice to know.My main is a monk, and it seems like it is similar to Peel (altho the swash does not have anything like Tsunami -to my knowledge-) except it is controlled who gets it back. On my monk I can FD when needed but its a crapshoot who gets the mob after that./shrug i can see how this at least sounded cool to the devs, whether it not it was implemented correctly is another thing.</blockquote>It worked exactly like a rescue when it first came out, then the devs messed up the mechanics and we've been complaining for the last several months or so. Atm its better as xmute fodder than actual use.On the idea of adding tank's threat > why not make it that for x amount of time all detaunts give the target of Swarthy Disorder that much hate. Like when its up, say its on the MT and ur avoid m1 procs 3 times, it adds 1648 (x3) hate to the target, iggy blissy procs? another 1500 to the target of swarthy disorder, baffle and hideaway used? another like 4k hate to target, and yea you get the idea.

RingleToo

05-23-2008, 09:47 PM

<cite>Steve11418 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Did I miss somthing... does the spell work now?Since it was changed from a super rescue I have been unable to use the spell to change hate positions. I will however try testing it again.As for liking the spell... I will admit that upon initially reading the description I liked the idea. But upon further analysis:SOLO - Provides 0% usability when soloing. (But so do a number of the other class 80 specials)GROUP - If I could get it to work... It would be an additional single target de-aggro. Most Heroic trash do not last long enough to warrant using this spell... so maybe on name (which is about 1 in 20 fights?) So i rate this as 5% usability in groups.RAIDS - Allows us a single target de-aggro or perhapses able to safe a squishy? (Providing I could get it to work) In our raid force our Guardian does not lose aggro often. But might be usefull for memwipe mobs once per fight... so Pawbuster, Twins, Doomcoil. So I would use it maybe 5 times a week raiding? Not sure how many mobs we kill in raids perhapses 50? So I give it 10% usability in raids for a casual raider.So in conclusion this spell has a usability of between 5% and 10% for me.In comparrison my Warden uses it fairy every fight every time its up so it 100% An excellent spell.</blockquote>I was curious to see how many other 80 spells weren't useful soloing and found - I think - that of the 24 classes, 9 of the lvl 80 spells were designed to be used specifically in groups. They're of no use soloing that I can see. (Mystic and warden spells look like they can be used soloing, but if they can't be, add those 2.) However, 6 of those classes are the tank classes, which kind of make sense. If I were a tank, I'd want something to help me tank...but I'm not so maybe a tank would disagree. Still, they certainly look like they help tanks be better tanks which is what a class defining spell should do. Most of the other spells can be used soloing, but even the ones that are group specific at least have as much value in a group as they do in a raid. At the very least, they look like spells that one might use a lot. (Well, not sure about that Wizard 80 spell - that doesn't look safe to use lol). If the different posts in this forum are representative of the Swashy population, I'd say that most aren't bothering to use SoH. And even if it worked better, most would only use it on raids. Compared to the other 80 spells, ours is way down on the list for usefullness and desirability.

Katanalla

05-24-2008, 04:39 PM

Aeralik, join the chat channel butcherblock.swashbuckling and ask the swashbucklers in there if anyone of them likes Sleight of Hand, A good number of us swashbucklers are in there, usually over 50 at any given moment of the day. Please go in there and ask for people who like the spell as it currently is and see how many people give you the thumbs-up on this ability. So far the swashbucklers who are on the forums all hate our level 80 class defining ability, but there are a number of people on that channel who don't use the official forums, try them if you're not satisfied as to our feelings of Sleight of Hand.

Moonlance

05-25-2008, 02:24 AM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote> For every vocal critic of the skill there are some who like the utility of it. </blockquote>Obfuscating the truth. Cow Manure.

Foolsfolly

05-25-2008, 04:19 PM

/signedIt's a poorly designed and poorly implemented skill. Either make some drastic changes to the way it works, or replace it entirely.

Katanalla

05-25-2008, 06:14 PM

personally folly, i'm hoping for the latter. Unless it adds or decreases to targets hate by like 10k threat its gonna be very minimal at best. Okay great I just lowered the brigand's threat by 1400 hate.... One auto attack hit at almost minimal value in raid is near if not over the amount i dropped, if his weapon crits he's up 1000 to 3000 hate above what i just took off, and if it double attacks its even higher. Unless you're mentoring your friend in T2 and the value stays around 1400 its mostly useless.

MistaNeat2

05-30-2008, 01:24 AM

Sleight of Hand is the worst spell I've seen and I don't plan on using it unless there are significant changes to it.This spell really needs to be changed as it is a worthless pile of trash right now.

Dreadpatch

05-30-2008, 11:36 AM

Still waiting for even a single swashy stating they even use this spell, nevermind like it. Start the Change it!!! chant swashies : ) vocal minority ftw...

liveja

05-30-2008, 06:11 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>For every vocal critic of the skill there are some who like the utility of it.</blockquote>I would like nothing more than to love SoH, but unfortunately, it has such limited utility that I can't. I've not bought even the Adept 1 version of it, nor will I.It's utterly useless (obviously) when soloing. It might (but more often would not) be useful in single-group content, but most tanks have better skills for that sort of thing. It is just moderately better than useless in raid situations; at least in a raid, you've got other people to cast it on, even though chances are it won't do any good. Effectively, you've got a level 80 "class defining" skill that is far too situational to be "class defining" & even in the situations where it might be useful (I stress the "might" part) it's not the best use for a Swashy.I'm sorry, but I have to agree with most/all of the others: please make significant changes to this skill so that it will actually be worthwhile to the BULK of the Swashy playerbase.

Katanalla

05-30-2008, 06:12 PM

yea dread i'm still waiting on Aeralik's so called majority who like SOH

Ghalslayt

06-02-2008, 07:22 AM

I like SOH, It gave me a crystallized mana!

Katanalla

06-04-2008, 10:12 PM

i watched a friend of mine on test server, even with the boost its getting it still... sucks, Grats Rrarwrk you keep hotbar spot

Dreadpatch

06-05-2008, 11:35 AM

That's because after Aeralik posted his response, he was too scared to come back here and read what we had to say. They can change the spell 6 ways to Sunday and it will still totally blow. Guess we just need to grab our ankles and grin and bear. Thanks for "listening" SOE to all of the 80 swashies that responsed in this thread. STILL NOT A SINGLE SWASHY SAYS THEY LIKE THIS SPELL!!! NOT ONE SINGLE POST!!! We are not a vocal minority, we are the educated that play your game and enjoy it. Crystalized mana FTW. Thanks for not listening to your player base!!!

Katanalla

06-05-2008, 05:13 PM

yea its mainly just xmute fodder still, and probably will be for awhile

Dreadpatch

06-06-2008, 10:05 AM

One question that still really hasn't been answered by anybody. Even when Aeralik changes this spell to have a stronger taunt (and it still totally sucks, which it will), why do we get a spell that is ONLY USEFUL IN RAIDS? I think that is pretty unfair to the rest of the population of non-raiders. I would appreciate an answer to this question.

Rippitt

06-06-2008, 04:11 PM

To hell with you, I like this spell. I'd like it more if it actually worked though.

Dreadpatch

06-06-2008, 04:30 PM

Well you will get your wish with a crappy spell then Rippitt. Even should it work after fix number two, which I will not hold my breath for, it will be so situational it will continue to be useless. I guess I can golf clap for the raiders for getting that really sweet spell up and going. I'm sure you couldn't get anything more class defining to help you in a raid. The raiders may get to hit the button once every raid or two. Should definitely be worth keeping on the old hotbar for that. SoH = the nerf bat. The reason sleight of hand sucks is obviously because the devs feel we are overpowered class. Maybe they are right. I would prefer the nerf in a useless 80 spell than to my other CA's I guess. Bravo devs, bravo.. soft clap clap clap clap.. Enjoy your spell raiders, may you find it well. Someones gotta buy all of them that sit on the broker till they drop to 10 plat. At that point, it's worth it for the muters to buy only. I'll just continue to spend my resources getting the rest of my master spells, so that I may actually do what my class is supposed to, dps and debuff. I'll use my coercer for agro control.

Foolsfolly

06-08-2008, 06:46 PM

Well despite my earlier comment, since I started trying Sleight of Hand I have found it to be extremely effective. Both in groups and raids, almost every time I use it on a tank that tank will jump to the top of the agro list. Any time I use it on a non-tank who has agro, they drop off the agro list and the tank can easily get it back. And as long as I use it on anybody every 30 seconds, I never manage to pull agro on myself.My only gripe is that this ability is 100% useless when soloing. And I suppose I can live with that.Also it's kind of a pain to make custom macro's for each group member every time I join a new group...but I suppose that cannot be helped.

Rippitt

06-08-2008, 11:16 PM

They gave us nothing useful for a level 80 special and we're still extremely overpowered. I hope none of you were expecting to get something damage related? lol

RingleToo

06-09-2008, 12:06 PM

<cite>Foolsfolly wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well despite my earlier comment, since I started trying Sleight of Hand I have found it to be extremely effective. Both in groups and raids, almost every time I use it on a tank that tank will jump to the top of the agro list. Any time I use it on a non-tank who has agro, they drop off the agro list and the tank can easily get it back. And as long as I use it on anybody every 30 seconds, I never manage to pull agro on myself.My only gripe is that this ability is 100% useless when soloing. And I suppose I can live with that.Also it's kind of a pain to make custom macro's for each group member every time I join a new group...but I suppose that cannot be helped.</blockquote>My gripe is that, as I've said a few times, is that why is hate gain the class defining spell for swashies? Even if it works properly, so what? In comparison to the swashy's other abilities, it's a very very small part of what the swashy does. It's of minimal value in groups since any good or even average tank is not going to lose aggro enough to make SoH even worth having on the hot bar. Our "regular" hate transfer is going to do the job. I can see how SoH would benefit the raider, especially against certain mobs, though I think the mechanics of how it's applied still need to be changed. However, I raid maybe once a week making SoH, again, of minimal value - especially considering it's our class defining spell. And what about all those who raid less or not at all? I've previously mentioned the unfairness of the soloing aspect that, discounting the tank classes, there are only 3 classes with lvl 80 spells designed specifically for groups - swashy, brigand, and, um..dirge? I think it's dirge.

Katanalla

06-09-2008, 09:40 PM

Disarm is more class defining than Sleight of Hand... and its useable in solo / group situation, and on raids with some adds that need quick temporary mezzes so enchanters can catch up...

OutcastBlade

06-17-2008, 03:37 PM

They doubled the hate proc.M1 is now up to 2937 or something like that as of GU 46. I can see this being useful in trigger happy dps groups............But in a raid its still just a drop in the pond.If I was a Arrarik(sp) this is what I might have done... Me as a player would still not be too happy with it but it would have been a little bit more useful in raiding AND grouping. Swap our positions with targetted fighter class if WE have aggro.+2937 hate proc on fighter class.Swap our positions with targetted healer class if THEY have aggro.-2937 hate proc on non-fighter class.GU 46 did not make this skill that much more useful.

Dreadpatch

06-17-2008, 04:43 PM

It still sucks, mute it. Thanks for nothing Aeralik... Swashies are still the best, even if our 80 spell TOTALLY blows. A squishy will be dead before you could cast it in a raid anyways, let's be honest. I just don't understand why he wasted his time adjusting it at all. He could have made a more useful update to shadowknights.

Katanalla

06-17-2008, 08:09 PM

rrarwrk earned his hotbar spot, by sleight of hand stinking like a pile of dung poop and the fact that we have another swash in raid

RingleToo

06-17-2008, 11:03 PM

I wish I could sit down with Aeralik and get his thinking about SoH. I expect he's got too much on his plate to be able to come back to re-work (or replace) SoH. Still, I'd like to know.Why does he think SoH should be our lvl 80 spell rather then a CA that helps our primary ability - debuffs? Or any CA that would also be beneficial when soloing. Why does he think SoH is a good spell for us? Does he know something about the best way to use it that we don't? Nearly everyone thinks it has no real practical value in groups and is most useful only in raids. Does he see it differently?Why does he think there are a lot of Swashies who like SoH? (I raid maybe once a week and usually with my templar. This last time, though, they needed more dps, so I brought my Swashy. A master SoH dropped. There were 3 of us Swashies, and at first none of us would even bid the minimum 5 dkp for it. Finally, someone got it for 10 dkp. Think about that. A master spell that no one wanted). Is he aware that most Swashies don't use this spell or, at best, rarely? (Ok, that's my opinion, but it's an opinion based on the many negative posts I've seen and the other Swashies I've talked to). I just want to understand is all.

Meinen

06-18-2008, 02:44 AM

Aeralik is to busy figuring out how to get Assassins to parse higher than swashes. So until he figures out how to play one, SOH is what we get so that swashes don't totally own his class.He doesn't understand, no matter what he does, swashes still beat all.

Aeralik

06-18-2008, 02:55 AM

<cite>RingleToo wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wish I could sit down with Aeralik and get his thinking about SoH. I expect he's got too much on his plate to be able to come back to re-work (or replace) SoH. Still, I'd like to know.Why does he think SoH should be our lvl 80 spell rather then a CA that helps our primary ability - debuffs? Or any CA that would also be beneficial when soloing. Your primary role is actually dps which you do pretty well. Debuffs are a seconday role, but on raids debuffs are already pretty plentiful. Another secondary abilitity is hate through taunts, hate transfer and now Sleight of Hand. You can see this on your epic you got a dps bonus, a powerful debuff and a boost to hate transfer.Why does he think SoH is a good spell for us? Does he know something about the best way to use it that we don't? Nearly everyone thinks it has no real practical value in groups and is most useful only in raids. Does he see it differently?I will agree its a purely situational spell. It's not something you will use every time its up. Swashies are usually fairly high up the list though if you think about it. Say a main tank dies. Once he is rezzed you can swap and he goes from 0 hate to wherever the swash was. Now rescue and some taunts can help get it back. Maybe a wizard overnukes and you can use it and then deaggro yourself to give it back to the tank. Another spot is when the hate shuffles or like you guys say they mem wipe. Again, I realize it is situational and not going to be something you have on your primary hotbar or run out to buy the master 1 of but it does fit in with the class.Why does he think there are a lot of Swashies who like SoH? (I raid maybe once a week and usually with my templar. This last time, though, they needed more dps, so I brought my Swashy. A master SoH dropped. There were 3 of us Swashies, and at first none of us would even bid the minimum 5 dkp for it. Finally, someone got it for 10 dkp. Think about that. A master spell that no one wanted). I don't think swashbuckler's are alone in this. Not every spell is going to have the worth of a summoner's pet, bolt of ice, a backstab or a primary heal. Scanning the broker though every class has a few that fall into this category and they are largely situational or non primary use spells.Is he aware that most Swashies don't use this spell or, at best, rarely? (Ok, that's my opinion, but it's an opinion based on the many negative posts I've seen and the other Swashies I've talked to). Like I said above its not going to be something you use everytime its up. It's a situational spell that does have its uses though. If you have suggestions that keep the general theme then I am open to making it better and more useable but it's not going to change into some sort of attack. I just want to understand is all.</blockquote>Responses are inline in blue.

Ghalslayt

06-18-2008, 05:32 AM

I will agree its a purely situational spell. It's not something you will use every time its up. Swashies are usually fairly high up the list though if you think about it. Say a main tank dies. Once he is rezzed you can swap and he goes from 0 hate to wherever the swash was. Now rescue and some taunts can help get it back. Maybe a wizard overnukes and you can use it and then deaggro yourself to give it back to the tank. Another spot is when the hate shuffles or like you guys say they mem wipe. Again, I realize it is situational and not going to be something you have on your primary hotbar or run out to buy the master 1 of but it does fit in with the class.This would be fine if the actual swap worked, it still does not, it is STILL a super rescue not swapping the aggro at all. It is still useless.Like I said above its not going to be something you use everytime its up. It's a situational spell that does have its uses though. If you have suggestions that keep the general theme then I am open to making it better and more useable but it's not going to change into some sort of attack. There have been tons of suggestions on this forum on how to change it that is not an attack. A temporary buff, hate buff for someone else. And so on. Even situational it is totally useless because the mechanics have never worked.

Andric_D

06-18-2008, 07:23 AM

I frequently try to use it as Aerlic describes - thas what it's meant to do. It at best works rarely but most of the time it has no discernable effect. Basically its a very situational ability which 95% of the time appears to do absobloodylutly nothing

Dreadpatch

06-18-2008, 09:12 AM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>RingleToo wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wish I could sit down with Aeralik and get his thinking about SoH. I expect he's got too much on his plate to be able to come back to re-work (or replace) SoH. Still, I'd like to know.Why does he think SoH should be our lvl 80 spell rather then a CA that helps our primary ability - debuffs? Or any CA that would also be beneficial when soloing. Your primary role is actually dps which you do pretty well. Debuffs are a seconday role, but on raids debuffs are already pretty plentiful. Another secondary abilitity is hate through taunts, hate transfer and now Sleight of Hand. You can see this on your epic you got a dps bonus, a powerful debuff and a boost to hate transfer. Why does he think SoH is a good spell for us? Does he know something about the best way to use it that we don't? Nearly everyone thinks it has no real practical value in groups and is most useful only in raids. Does he see it differently?I will agree its a purely situational spell. It's not something you will use every time its up. Swashies are usually fairly high up the list though if you think about it. Say a main tank dies. Once he is rezzed you can swap and he goes from 0 hate to wherever the swash was. Now rescue and some taunts can help get it back. Maybe a wizard overnukes and you can use it and then deaggro yourself to give it back to the tank. Another spot is when the hate shuffles or like you guys say they mem wipe. Again, I realize it is situational and not going to be something you have on your primary hotbar or run out to buy the master 1 of but it does fit in with the class.Why does he think there are a lot of Swashies who like SoH? (I raid maybe once a week and usually with my templar. This last time, though, they needed more dps, so I brought my Swashy. A master SoH dropped. There were 3 of us Swashies, and at first none of us would even bid the minimum 5 dkp for it. Finally, someone got it for 10 dkp. Think about that. A master spell that no one wanted). I don't think swashbuckler's are alone in this. Not every spell is going to have the worth of a summoner's pet, bolt of ice, a backstab or a primary heal. Scanning the broker though every class has a few that fall into this category and they are largely situational or non primary use spells.Is he aware that most Swashies don't use this spell or, at best, rarely? (Ok, that's my opinion, but it's an opinion based on the many negative posts I've seen and the other Swashies I've talked to). Like I said above its not going to be something you use everytime its up. It's a situational spell that does have its uses though. If you have suggestions that keep the general theme then I am open to making it better and more useable but it's not going to change into some sort of attack. I just want to understand is all.</blockquote>Responses are inline in blue. </blockquote>Let me explain a form of hate transfer to the tank that actually works by the way. A good swashy is in the role of a secondary tank. The swashy then sees a possible add, instead of waiting for it to attack a squishy or healer, he intelligently engages the target BEFORE it starts hitting the aforementioned squishy. I can do this far more effectively without using SoH and I will explain how because I have actually played the class until level 80. By attacking the mob, I transfer hate to the tank automatically (thanks for the added Charm's Way bonus). I taunt and hit it, I have agro (I have never failed to grab agro in this manner ever). Then I hit hideaway... All done, and I'm invis for my next attack. I don't need to worry about targeting this one, and that one, and then this person over there. That is the fastest way, and it doesn't involve using a ridiculous spell that NO ONE will put on their HOTBAR to use once every two weeks. How can you with a straight face give the response above? Go back and read it and listen to yourself? You agree it's purely situation, well I gave you above what I would do in that situation and it works way better. It's called playing smart. Nobody wants the spell, it sucks. Obviously no class is alone in having spells they don't use, I pretty much never have to hit baffle, but I do sometimes just cuz (I still have it adept III at least, which is more than I can say for SoH). Let me see, you have spirits for mystic, deagro spell for Fury's blah blah blah... Is there any other class in this game that does not want a master version of their level 80 class defining spell? I'm pretty sure not based on my reading. I watched 3 copies of this spell on broker for swashy drop to 15 plat, before they were purchased (presumably for muting). Suggestions for a better spell? Well obviously you aren't going to give us something that defines our class, so I'm ok with that. I'm sorry but hate management is not our job, it's the job of the tank and and the chanter. We can off tank in certain necessary situations, but it's not what we are built for. Aside from that, there are SEVERAL hate management suggestions from people who play high level swashies that would be more effective for us. Read the thread and you will see. If I had more time, I would QFE some of them for you, but I don't get paid to do that.Again, you wasted your time with your so called "fix" completely. I'm just upset that your time was wasted, when you could have been doing something useful for another class. Thank you for your time.

Faenril

06-18-2008, 09:56 AM

<cite>Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>rrarwrk earned his hotbar spot, by sleight of hand stinking like a pile of dung poop and the fact that we have another swash in raid</blockquote>On a side note ... How do you get rrarwk back once you are done with your epic (fabled) weapon quest ? It disappeared from my inventory once I completed the quest. Is it possible to get it back ? When the mythical is completed for instance (still working on it) ?

Katanalla

06-18-2008, 10:14 AM

go back to the cage on the boat and click again, presto you have Rrarwrk and your sleight of hand replacement on hotbar

Pyzjyn

06-18-2008, 11:33 AM

So last night my guild is killing Nexona and every time I used SoH on the MT, Nexona turned right to me and killed me. I thought maybe because of direct targetting the mob maybe I should directly target the tank instead. Maybe Nex switched to a squishy and lowered their agro and somehow bumped me up or some crap like that. I don't know. I've always been able to cast it on the MT through a mob without any issues. So I target the MT directly and the same thing happens. I tried it later on on some VP trash and every time it was like I was rescuing the mob off the tank. I then tried it one time on Xygoz and that was it for me. I've lost all confidence in this spell now as it seems to do the opposite of what it's supposed to.There are some fights where we rotate tanks like Master P and Phara Dar where I could see this spell to be useful (not in it's current state) but I think the immunity should be reduced from 2 minutes to 1 minute.

Ashr

06-18-2008, 12:33 PM

<cite>Darud@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>So last night my guild is killing Nexona and every time I used SoH on the MT, Nexona turned right to me and killed me. I thought maybe because of direct targetting the mob maybe I should directly target the tank instead. Maybe Nex switched to a squishy and lowered their agro and somehow bumped me up or some crap like that. I don't know. I've always been able to cast it on the MT through a mob without any issues. So I target the MT directly and the same thing happens. I tried it later on on some VP trash and every time it was like I was rescuing the mob off the tank. I then tried it one time on Xygoz and that was it for me. I've lost all confidence in this spell now as it seems to do the opposite of what it's supposed to.There are some fights where we rotate tanks like Master P and Phara Dar where I could see this spell to be useful (not in it's current state) but I think the immunity should be reduced from 2 minutes to 1 minute.</blockquote>So are you saying that it does what its supposed to now? That when you cast it on the MT (Who had aggro already) that nexona targetted you? Basically Swapping your hate position with the tank?

Ghalslayt

06-18-2008, 01:28 PM

Read what i said about it only acting as a rescue. the swash two posts above only rescued it.

RingleToo

06-18-2008, 02:39 PM

OutcastBlade

06-18-2008, 02:57 PM

Last night in Runnyeye I tested out SoH.Everytime I used it I ripped from the tank. EVERYTIME it swapped our hate positions. I used it twice to save the tank's life and soak up some hits and then I used it a few more times just to prove a point that the reverse rescue aspect of it worked. I even backed off to maximum CA range, so I could at least debuff the mob while hitting evade, hideaway and then SoH. Sure enough the mob was on me after that. I then used evade and hideaway to give it back to the tank when he was no longer in purple/red, needless to say that last example though I almost died :p. I don't know about you guys but I like this. As for swapping our positions when I rip aggro the old fashioned way I didn't get a chance to use that because I didn't rip aggro.Another situation that I had a chance of testing was when our ranger ripped aggro from the tank in the group encounters. I popped SoH on the ranger and 3 times out of 5 it worked right when I hit the skill. In groups this skill works quite well now. I like the reverse rescue aspect of it, and I like the fact that it helps with getting hate off of the dps. Since I was buffed up to 12.5k I was able to take a barrage of hits. In raids I imagine this skill is only useful for memwipe mobs that target you specifically, such as Pawbuster and Doomcoil. But normally when the MT dies the MA picks it up right off the bat, so using it to save the tank's life is kinda pointless in a raid since the MT is back up and ready in no time. No use losing an MT AND a swashy.Overall I'm an almost happy swashy. I have a skill that requires some strategy to use properly.But reduce the recast time to 10 seconds so that I can use it for bouncing mobs. The 2min immunity is fine for this particular version of SoH.

Dreadpatch

06-18-2008, 04:42 PM

I suppose that's great if your tank can't hold agro or sucks. I'm glad there is a swashy out there that gets something out of this. and I genuinely mean it. I'll save the space on my hotbar for something else, and the plat for the master. golf clap ftw..... This is my last post on this spell anyways, I just don't care anymore. I hope all the swashies out there love it. The swashy is good enough without it.

OutcastBlade

06-18-2008, 06:05 PM

<cite>Dreadpatch wrote:</cite><blockquote>I suppose that's great if your tank can't hold agro or sucks. I'm glad there is a swashy out there that gets something out of this. and I genuinely mean it. I'll save the space on my hotbar for something else, and the plat for the master. golf clap ftw..... This is my last post on this spell anyways, I just don't care anymore. I hope all the swashies out there love it. The swashy is good enough without it. </blockquote>Nah the guy is a fantastic tank. Let's just say it was our first time through RE, and there were a lot of cases where we were pulling mobs onto ourselves. Also we killed the Blacksmith and the last named very easily. lol. So no he didn't suck.

Faenril

06-19-2008, 05:19 AM

<cite>Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>go back to the cage on the boat and click again, presto you have Rrarwrk and your sleight of hand replacement on hotbar</blockquote>Woot great <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I'm gonnna get it next time I log <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />(there si a free spot on my hotbars)

Trojenn

06-19-2008, 10:53 AM

I am in agreance with Dreadpatch..... This will probably be my last post, but LEAVE THE SPELL ALONE... atleast now it has some use. It actualy does something. Even if it is a super rescue then so be it. I can once again use it on PB to pull the mob back off of healers and squishies. I can (intercept <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) for the tank lol.. And I have not tested to see if it will drop me if I am at the top before i cast it .. WIll do so tonight... Anyways.. SOE Leave the spell alone.. Even though it may not work as describe atleast it works to a degree.. Before this recent patch the fu**ing thing didn't do sh**.

Katanalla

06-20-2008, 12:02 AM

Hmmm yea, I'm gonna agree that this ability should just be left as is now that some people find it useful occasionally

Ghalslayt

06-28-2008, 10:55 PM

It's a broken super rescue too. Tonight on silverwing I target the add to SOH it off the MT. Guess who comes? Silverwing, lucky we didn't wipe. It didn't change positions of me and the coercer it had targeted it changed the positions of me and the MT.

Trojenn

06-29-2008, 03:20 AM

To above post:If both Silver Wing and the add are both on the MT, of course your going to pull Silverwing of the MT.. Reason, you are swapping your hate position with the MT. His Hate applies to both Mobs not just the one you target thus swapping the Hate you have on both mobs for the Hate the MT has on both mobs..

Ghalslayt

07-01-2008, 12:59 AM

I posted the original target wrong the mob was on the coercer, silverwing was on the MT, I used SOH on the add who was targeting the coercer and got Silverwing.

Trojenn

07-01-2008, 01:52 AM

Gotcha but ya gotta factor in the slite possibility that immediately before you casted it the tank managed to grab agro.. but then again it may have been blunt bad luck.. I have never had it happen but eh who knows..

Splatty_Spat

07-03-2008, 02:03 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Since the skill has been out there for awhile I am hesitant to make any major changes to it. For every vocal critic of the skill there are some who like the utility of it. It also kind of fits in with some of the swashbucklers utility. I changed some things around though in how it works internally so that going forward it should function better. Also keep in mind the flow of the game. Like if the players are close together on the hate list then they might swap for a moment but then your auto attack could easily just swap it back. I doubled the additional hate gain and loss though so that this shouldnt be as bad but in general the more hate between the two players the better it will be.</blockquote>Had to have a chuckle at this, Mythicals have been out a while yet you are making considerale changes to them (may I add apart from Swashbucklers) ... just l o l

Dreadpatch

07-03-2008, 02:44 PM

I got the master version the other day for ridiculously cheap, like a muter would have bought it if I didn't. I haven't had a chance to play much with the master yet, but I figure it will give me something to do. There's a bout 20 of them on the nektulos broker, only swashy spell available pretty much. Pretty sweet spell!!! People are chomping at the bit to get their hands on it. Wish I as an assassin... Maybe then Aeralik wouldn't be hesitant to make useful changes.

Katanalla

07-03-2008, 05:42 PM

I figured it out...Sleight of Hand is a FUN SPELL Put it on hotbar and mess around in raids...1) get in MT group.......2) in a trash fight don't do anything but detaunts (Save hideaway).......... 3) around 50-65% remove your transfer off MT........ 4) use sleight of hand on MT.......5) use Hideaway and watch the fun.

Trojenn

07-03-2008, 11:51 PM

Been there done that.. Shard of Hate..( SoH ) why not use Sleight of Hand ( SoH )...Everyone gets agroed and about half the people wipe lol. Its great. GO SOE .. Give us a way to easily wipe a raid woot.

OutcastBlade

07-04-2008, 02:36 PM

And then..."You have been kicked from the raid.""You have been kicked from the guild."WOOT!

Andric_D

07-05-2008, 12:43 AM

can pull agro off any MT which is fun in instances with some MT who reakons he cant lose agro but pretty useless all in all.

Pyzjyn

07-05-2008, 03:54 PM

Actually I found it useful for tanking in Shard of Hate.

liveja

07-06-2008, 12:02 AM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't think swashbuckler's are alone in this. Not every spell is going to have the worth of a summoner's pet, bolt of ice, a backstab or a primary heal.</blockquote>How many of those "largely situational or non-primary use spells" are 80th level & supposedly "class defining"?

DngrMou

11-07-2008, 12:30 AM

Aerelik,Thanks for responding. It helps knowing our concerns are at least being seen.Swashbucklers have been complaining about this since RoK beta, it either did'nt work, or was of so little use that it was'nt used. And this is the way things remain today. As a class defining skill, it may not need to be on my primary hotbar, but it should definitely be on the one next to it. For me, it's not. It's not on any hotbar. It will not be put on any hotbar. SoH would have been better as an AA option, either as a stand alone ability, or an added effect to another CA, and not as the final ability every swashbuckler should want to strive for. I can't tell you what it should be replaced with, and I doubt after so long that it would be looked at anyway. But if you do want ideas, starting a thread in this forum, and asking for the input of swashy's would probably result in a lot of good ideas.

miserythedrow

11-07-2008, 05:00 AM

My personal view on this is that if ONE persons lvl 80 spell can be used solo then EVERYONES should. We already have so many other abilities we all have for group, why should someone work their butts off through all 80 lvls and if you solo then all of a sudden SOME classes get this great reward (assassins?) and others (Swash) get the proverbial finger.How is that fair? Been reading these things for awhile and for once I decided I just had to post. Seriously if half the people are unhappy, somethings wrong. Lets face it, not EVERYONE is going to be happy, but try for a better majority then HALF.Aerelik, why is this such a big deal to change if the MAJORITY doesn't want it. Take a friggen vote or something. I don't care if its a massive offensive debuff or what, but what I would like to see is FAIRNESS across the classes to have lvl 80 abilities capable of being useful to solo questing too. I don't see why we have to wait for a "situational" use on our end ability. Heck, I've only been playing this game 2 months and I'm already complaining. I'm that new player base you're supposed to want to keep as well as the older ones who keep complaining too. This is my first MMO playing. I even skipped over the world famous WoW. I heard this game was more small group and solo friendly, but I'm noticing a lot of flaws in those regards.By the way, the area of Kunark is dry and boring in our opinion (my wife's, my brother's, my brother's g/f, and mine). Just thought I'd through that in.

jam3

11-10-2008, 08:37 AM

Its extremely useful to use while fighting Maestro of the Rancor in shard of hate if your other fighters that are not in mt group are not as stable like mine end up being. Its great to run back to the dps spot aswell if your tank gets deaggro'd and hes running to use chains.

Dreadpatch

12-03-2008, 05:39 PM

Wow, a spell that's useful for one fight. Sign me up for that. Fatal followup FTW.

Keyh

12-04-2008, 10:01 AM

How about making it a buff (even a temp buff) that gives a varying % chance (depending on the level of the spell) for proccing a flurry. I don't think anyone would be angry about it being changed to that.

DngrMou

12-04-2008, 11:25 AM

<cite>Keyh wrote:</cite><blockquote>How about making it a buff (even a temp buff) that gives a varying % chance (depending on the level of the spell) for proccing a flurry. I don't think anyone would be angry about it being changed to that.</blockquote>They could change it to a Fancy Firework, and it'd get more use....(which I have on a hotbar, as opposed to SoH).

Katanalla

12-04-2008, 09:14 PM

I use mine probably once every 2-3 weeks, just to see if I can wipe the raid, woot m1! <They made me take it so it'd never f....ing drop ever again in SOH due to smart loot. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Leenee

12-05-2008, 05:19 PM

I use mine when we are for-sure wiping, so I can just go ahead and die already<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />

Katanalla

12-06-2008, 01:11 AM

<cite>Leenee wrote:</cite><blockquote>I use mine when we are for-sure wiping, so I can just go ahead and die already<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Tinker...... and spec for advanced warning if you haven't yet......Evade, racial taunt if applicable, hideaway, evasive maneuvers if you have it yet, throw up aoe avoid, tinker FD.

miserythedrow

12-09-2008, 09:13 AM

After seeing the post SK lose their pet they've had since EQ1, an ability a FEW people liked, I don't see how us ditching SoH is ANY different for something new and better, so Aer's argument that its been around awhile means NOTHING. Please ditch the ability and find a nice new ability. Maybe an offensive debuff. OR, maybe an ability used every 5 minutes that makes the target ally immune to all damage for like 3-5 seconds. That might come in handy when your tank is close to dropping and the healers need a bit more time to boost em back up.

Katanalla

12-09-2008, 05:16 PM

We're not known for that though Misery....However.... If we had a like 5min recast or w/e that made the enemy target stifled/dazed for 5 seconds that epics were NOT immune from, that'd be alright, I guess /shrug.

Errolflynn

12-10-2008, 09:42 AM

Can't say I've every used Sleight of Hand. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" />Now my other 80's, my Warlock uses her 80 lvl spell all the time in groups and raids. My Monk uses Peel from time to time but atleast it gets used.

DngrMou

12-11-2008, 01:15 PM

<cite>Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>We're not known for that though Misery....However.... If we had a like 5min recast or w/e that made the enemy target stifled/dazed for 5 seconds that epics were NOT immune from, that'd be alright, I guess /shrug.</blockquote>That'd be nice. I also like these ideas:1. Enchancing mental, and life breach poison effects, and sharing the benefits of those poisons across a group for a minute or two. 2. Call the rest of the group to the swash's location, (in the same zone).3. 10 to 20 seconds, (more or less), of group super invis, that nothing can 'see' through, with a long recast time. Something that does not last long enough to dash across the zone...but long enough to run past a hallway, reposition a group, etc.4. Call a Pirate Ally, (a sail mender), to the swash's location, and allow group/raid members to patch their broken armor..to say 30%. Longish recast time.5. Increase the chances of exquisite chest drops for mobs that already have a decent chance of dropping those chests, with a mediumish recast time. Short duration...has to be cast just prior to the mob dying.

liveja

12-28-2008, 03:37 PM

I actually used SOH today, for the very first time since I got it, o-so-many months ago.I have no idea whether it did anything, or not. If I hadn't used it, the squishie on whom I did use it still would have been saved. That was the M1 version, BTW, which I just got today from some named in Hollow Tower.IMO, a level 80 Master 1 CA that I've used exactly ONCE, one the effects of which are not obvious, & one the usage of which wasn't even needed for the purpose intended, is a totally pointless, useless CA.PLEASE fix/change this piece of garbage.

RingleToo

12-29-2008, 03:24 PM

I don't mind posting one more time. This thread has been going since May '08. You would think that would tell the devs (Aerilak) something.Clearly, it doesn't matter what we players think or want regarding SoH. The mind set is that it's okay that some classes get good lvl 80 spells and other classes don't. Too bad, too sad, but that's what the devs think is the best way to do lvl 80 spells and that's the way it is. Bleh.

Katanalla

12-29-2008, 11:02 PM

I use the ability all the time to try and see if I can wipe the raid, one night we 3 grouped avatar of war, go to VP, almost wiped raid to a trash mob, was best moment in my life.I have yet to use it seriously to try and save someone though, and mines M1.

RingleToo

12-30-2008, 12:49 PM

<cite>Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I use the ability all the time to try and see if I can wipe the raid, one night we 3 grouped avatar of war, go to VP, almost wiped raid to a trash mob, was best moment in my life.I have yet to use it seriously to try and save someone though, and mines M1.</blockquote>Okay, that's just evil and wrong.Um. So how do I use SoH to wipe a raid? And anyone from my guild who might be reading this, I want to know for purely informational purposes only <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" />

Katanalla

12-30-2008, 03:02 PM

As I said before..... will restate hehe....TAKE transfer off MT firstSOHuse all your detauntssee what happens!Its a mem wipe simulator <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

RingleToo

12-30-2008, 03:49 PM

<cite>Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>As I said before..... will restate hehe....TAKE transfer off MT firstSOHuse all your detauntssee what happens!Its a mem wipe simulator <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Missed your other post, thanks for re-posting!*rubs hands together evilly* MWAHAHAHAHAHA...er, I meant. Not that I would never do such a thing! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" />

Katanalla

12-30-2008, 05:57 PM

And we're the good rogues /srug

Trojenn

01-02-2009, 07:16 AM

Well,I created this post and surprised to see it still breathing.. SoH in TSO = mega deathI am very ashamed to say that I cannot take more then 1 hit from the freakin Epics in TSO, and with the new agro managements that tanks got it is such a snap agro game in raid its pathetic, hell even in groups. If the tank does so much as drop target the tank has it back so quick its almost impossible to move your mouse to the SoH button and even think about using it and secondly even if it does work your more then likely going to gank the mob from the MT cause he snapped agro back from the person who pulled it.I will keep posting the negative feedback on this spell untill I either quit playing this game or they change it.Sleight of Hand is completely useless and is getting further more useless as TSO progresses. I meen according to Alakazham they are changing our Epics and removing the hate transfer from the weapon and doing something else in its place. Aeralik also stated that since TSO has changed the way hate works and the new ability's that tanks aquired for Hate management that our Primary roll is no longer Hate Transfer/DPS it is now more focused on DPS/Debuffs. So since our primary roll is changing why can't our Class Defineing level 80 Spell that was given to us because our Rolls were dealing with hate be changed. Seriously Sleight of Hand is complete and utter trash.

Katanalla

01-02-2009, 02:37 PM

Does this mean we're gonna be dropped out of MT group in a horribly unmatching group?Anyways, if our role is changing our level 80 CA has to change with it. Hey kill 2 birds with 1 stone, while changing mythical take effect off TS and put it as our new lvl 80 CA with higher damage debuff %s the better quality the CA is with longer duration than recast! Well was worth a try....How about lvl 80 CA that doubles trigger chances for like 30s every 2min or something I don't know.

Trojenn

01-02-2009, 03:26 PM

<cite>Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Does this mean we're gonna be dropped out of MT group in a horribly unmatching group?Anyways, if our role is changing our level 80 CA has to change with it. Hey kill 2 birds with 1 stone, while changing mythical take effect off TS and put it as our new lvl 80 CA with higher damage debuff %s the better quality the CA is with longer duration than recast! Well was worth a try....How about lvl 80 CA that doubles trigger chances for like 30s every 2min or something I don't know.</blockquote>((( Bolded Text )))I like that idea, its not a damage based CA but would give a nice little boost to DPS. But isn't that like Front Load, so I doubt we will get anything that is comparable to Assasins.

Katanalla

01-02-2009, 03:32 PM

Oh darn there is something like that already as a CA? poop. Well I don't have any ideas for this at this time then hehe

Trojenn

01-02-2009, 03:36 PM

SynterVenekor: Will the swashbuckler mythical concerns be addressed? The primary ones being that the hate transfer is a proc instead of constant, and that the damage proc is the only scout weapon with a dot proc, the dot breaks swash mez and produces lower dps than a DD proc due to overwriting itself.<ul><li>Aeralik: The swashbuckler hate transfer is changing as part of GU51 so that part of the epic will need to change. We can evaluate the rest of it but there are no guarantees of any changes. Look for a description of the changes in the GU51 Test notes next month though.</li></ul>For those who think I may have gotten my information wrong about the removal of the hate proc, here is the post from Alakhazam.As for what there replacing it with, I have no idea. Probably some DA proc or Melee Crit proc witch 90% of us do not realy need. I sit at 88% Crit and 71% DA self buffed. A flurry proc on the weapon would be extremely nice.

Katanalla

01-02-2009, 04:09 PM

Flurry proc really only kinda proc we even need, crit and da are so over done they're almost worthless especially in raid when I have over 95 DA and 90 crit.But yea we won't see anything close to that. Haste / dps mod we don't need.... really just more damage proc junk or a debuff. And Aeralik will opt for a debuff over giving us flurry any day.------As for Sleight of Hand, really same thing going on here... Swash class does not need any more offensive debuffs ontop of what we already do, nor defensive as a lot of other classes already do that. If debuff it would have to be like.... crit damage or crit chance debuff really..... If we wanted to debuff more offensive than a whole bloody raid we could go down that line, be able to debuff the living hell out of a mob's offensive skills....If keeping in line with swash *diversion of blame* mastery, could always give us like a melee tandem buff or what ever lol.In my opinion, only thing we really need at this point is something do do with... 1) Proc rate modifier (a swash Front Load pretty much or all procs 100% chance for like 15s or something), 2) Melee direct damage multiplier- a proc buff that will double auto attack damage directly or make it crit 100% for a set duration. 3) Flurry, but that won't happen. 4) 30s, 3min recast hurricane affects CA's aswell hehe..... And thats what I would think far as dps....

Trojenn

01-04-2009, 03:39 AM

Just wandering if by some chance we can get a reply to our question if SoH is getting changed or not. Considering that since Hate transfers are not realy needed anymore and with the new TSO Crit values and amount of damage they produce the current SoH is well suicidle. Aeralik it would be cool if we could get a response to this. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Thanks

DngrMou

01-04-2009, 10:44 AM

<cite>Trojenn@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just wandering if by some chance we can get a reply to our question if SoH is getting changed or not. Considering that since Hate transfers are not realy needed anymore and with the new TSO Crit values and amount of damage they produce the current SoH is well suicidle. Aeralik it would be cool if we could get a response to this. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" />Thanks</blockquote>Question has already been answered in this thread. No, it's not going to be changed. I'm also now running around with a shiny new Master I of SoH scribed, (not on hot bar though). I got extremely "lucky" the other night in SoH. At least by having it scribed, I can avoid that sort of luck in the future.

Katanalla

01-04-2009, 12:42 PM

-----Aeralik's response:"It stays the same. The hate transfer goes away and turns into a hate manipulation skill as well which means the skill fits your class."-----A response to a PM I sent him about SOH and alternatives. Still suicidal skill in TSO and if we're not transfering hate to MT it becomes even more suicidal than before. I only use mine to simulate Mem Wipes in raid anyways, about all its good for.And yea Mouse I was forced to take mine aswell so it would never drop again lol.

liveja

01-06-2009, 10:33 AM

<cite>Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>And yea Mouse I was forced to take mine aswell so it would never drop again lol.</blockquote>It was funny -- almost -- when it dropped for me in Hollow Tower ... the rest of the group was all "OOO, Swashy master, grtz Flaye!!!" & I'm thinking, "Crap, I FINALLY see a Swashy master drop, & it's freekin' SOH" <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" />I almost decided to broker it, but didn't feel like robbing some poor n00b who thought 18p for a T8 master was a good deal.Seriously, Aeralik: there is something very, very wrong when a Master drops, & the player who gets it isn't happy.

Katanalla

01-06-2009, 02:38 PM

it makes the other 23 people in the raid happy to know they will almost never see the pos again.But seriously, 100% of the Sleight of Hand casts I've done were just messing around with it, looking at it for practical use in a real scenario is suicide unless you do an instant detaunt after casting, in which case some random person in raid will get it then.

RingleToo

01-06-2009, 06:51 PM

<cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>And yea Mouse I was forced to take mine aswell so it would never drop again lol.</blockquote>It was funny -- almost -- when it dropped for me in Hollow Tower ... the rest of the group was all "OOO, Swashy master, grtz Flaye!!!" & I'm thinking, "Crap, I FINALLY see a Swashy master drop, & it's freekin' SOH" <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" />I almost decided to broker it, but didn't feel like robbing some poor n00b who thought 18p for a T8 master was a good deal.Seriously, Aeralik: there is something very, very wrong when a Master drops, & the player who gets it isn't happy.</blockquote>Same thing happened to me not too long ago, and I said almost the same thing lol Also thought about selling it, but I felt a little too much like a used car salesman so kept it. I related earlier that I was on a raid with 2 other Swashies when master SoH dropped and at first none of us would bid on it. Finally one of the others made the minimum DKP bid, but it was funny how we were saying I don't want it, you take it lolDespite Aerilak's earlier response in this thread, I just don't understand his almost pathological obstinancy in refusing to get rid of or make changes to SoH. And now he says, again, that with GU51 it's going to stay the same. So, now the excuse is "hate manipulation" still fits our class. It doesn't matter that we don't need it, want it, or use it. I suppose he knows what's best, and we're all wrong.

Katanalla

01-06-2009, 09:44 PM

They do not represent the player base as they are not a voted position or anything of the sort. They are the dungeon masters and we are the players. We may not care at all for the rules they set but not much we can do. You can quit or create a new character but when you've put almost 300 days into one character.... Arguing for improvements is a better option than starting a dark elf assassin for me personally.

DngrMou

01-07-2009, 10:08 AM

<cite>RingleToo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Katanallama@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>And yea Mouse I was forced to take mine aswell so it would never drop again lol.</blockquote>It was funny -- almost -- when it dropped for me in Hollow Tower ... the rest of the group was all "OOO, Swashy master, grtz Flaye!!!" & I'm thinking, "Crap, I FINALLY see a Swashy master drop, & it's freekin' SOH" <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2e207fad049d4d292f60607f80f05768.gif" border="0" />I almost decided to broker it, but didn't feel like robbing some poor n00b who thought 18p for a T8 master was a good deal.Seriously, Aeralik: there is something very, very wrong when a Master drops, & the player who gets it isn't happy.</blockquote>Same thing happened to me not too long ago, and I said almost the same thing lol Also thought about selling it, but I felt a little too much like a used car salesman so kept it. I related earlier that I was on a raid with 2 other Swashies when master SoH dropped and at first none of us would bid on it. Finally one of the others made the minimum DKP bid, but it was funny how we were saying I don't want it, you take it lolDespite Aerilak's earlier response in this thread, I just don't understand his almost pathological obstinancy in refusing to get rid of or make changes to SoH. And now he says, again, that with GU51 it's going to stay the same. So, now the excuse is "hate manipulation" still fits our class. It doesn't matter that we don't need it, want it, or use it. I suppose he knows what's best, and we're all wrong.</blockquote>Someone asked what SoH does exactly, (last night in Kor'sha), so I showed them. Healer got aggro, I cast SoH, mob swiveled to me, and I died. Mobs in TSO, and RoK raids hit way to hard to make this spell useable at all. In a raid, the tank has a small army of healers on him, I don't. Casting that spell, to 'help' the tank out is immediate, one hit suicide. Ditto for TSO instances. I'm leary of the 'hate manipulation' that was mentioned earlier for GU51 too. If we're all supposed to be responsible for our own hate generation, does this spell become something we already have? Just a hate reducer? Our level 80 class defining ability? On a positive note though, they can't possibly make SoH worse than it already is. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

liveja

01-07-2009, 11:34 AM

<cite>DngrMouse wrote:</cite><blockquote>On a positive note though, they can't possibly make SoH worse than it already is. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" /></blockquote>Aw Mouse ... why'd you have to go & give Aeralik a challenge <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" />

Katanalla

01-07-2009, 12:38 PM

So long as he does not have a montage to tweaking Sleight of Hand, we'll be alright!I got to show my raid what Sleight of Hand does when I obliterated MT's agro and killed half the raid!

Foolsfolly

04-02-2009, 05:39 AM

Now that we have the agro meter, I LOVE sleight of hand!I'm using it all the time. There's barely enough group members to keep up with the 2 minute immunity!Dropping from 70% hate down to 0% from a swap with a healer just feels so good!

Errolflynn

04-02-2009, 08:49 AM

<cite>Foolsfolly wrote:</cite><blockquote>Now that we have the agro meter, I LOVE sleight of hand!I'm using it all the time. There's barely enough group members to keep up with the 2 minute immunity!Dropping from 70% hate down to 0% from a swap with a healer just feels so good!</blockquote>Agreed. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />Now I've got the hang of it and with the hate meter it's actually useful.Don't make the mistake of casting it on the MT though as it will cause trouble if they are snapping it back at the same time. It's best use is to keep your hate low and not as an O S**t deagro when you get to the top of the hate list.

OutcastBlade

04-02-2009, 03:43 PM

Sleight of Hand with tank targetted by accident.I rip.Evasive ManeuversSomeone else dies.Tank establishes aggro.I stay quiet.<_< ................ >_>.................. ^__^

PakMonyet

04-02-2009, 10:21 PM

I look at my SoH as a way to keep the "soft" toons in line. If they annoy me, I target them, hit SoH,....and the annoyance is gone.....lol

Leenee

04-03-2009, 11:11 AM

<cite>PakMonyet wrote:</cite><blockquote>I look at my SoH as a way to keep the "soft" toons in line. If they annoy me, I target them, hit SoH,....and the annoyance is gone.....lol</blockquote>LOL....fun to kill the squishies

TygerMeow

04-03-2009, 04:19 PM

Ewwww, I never thought of using SoH as a weapon! We have some SKs that are constantly (and I mean every time it's up constantly) FDing people when we aren't in battle because they think it's funny. Since every third person is an SK these days, we use them for DPS so it freaking happens all the time. It gets unfunny really fast. Then there's the ever present people who can't stand still.I'm thinking I might hotbar SoH and have some fun of my own next raid with some trash mobs! Wicked!

Foolsfolly

04-03-2009, 06:24 PM

I've got an entire hotbar dedicated just to SoH. It's sitting right next to my group window, and has 5 macros each consisting of a command /target_group_member_1, followed by SoH. Makes it very easy to quickly SoH any group member with just 1 click.

Froed20

04-21-2009, 02:15 PM

Helmarf

04-23-2009, 12:32 PM

Macro it together with Hide away add a tell to tanks and hopefully they are awake and grabs da mob! Only problem is that the cast time of hide away is to long!!

urgthock

06-03-2009, 03:39 PM

<cite>Kanolth@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sleight of Hand with tank targetted by accident.I rip.Evasive ManeuversSomeone else dies.Tank establishes aggro.I stay quiet.<_< ................ >_>.................. ^__^</blockquote>Sigh, ya I ran into this issue in WoE recently. Hit SoH instead of AW when the mob was at 10 percent (so we could grind the flame elementals last 10 percent without being bothered having to cure)... needless to say I wiped the raid with the mob at 2 % <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Katanalla

06-04-2009, 09:44 AM

If you use it on random people in raid, you can use it as a detaunt. Course I rarely remember to do so until I'm at like 70% + hate.. By that point if I use it, the target of the spell ends up insta - dying anyways for some reason. BUT - not my problem. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Raidyen

06-04-2009, 06:46 PM

Leave SoH alone please. One of the best agro management spells in the game. particularly now with the hate meter.

OutcastBlade

06-05-2009, 07:27 PM

Agreed.

TygerMeow

06-05-2009, 07:33 PM

So both of you regularly use it to manage other people's aggro?

TygerMeow

06-05-2009, 07:34 PM

So both of you regularly use it to manage other people's aggro?

RingleToo

06-06-2009, 03:16 AM

Well, I still haven't figured out how to use this effectively. I went down the Int line, so personal aggro management is rarely an issue for me. The handful of times I've tried using it to "manage" the aggro of others one of three things happened. I wasn't able to use it fast enough and so the raid/group member died; I couldn't see that it had any effect; my toon died.This is a lvl 80 spell - supposedly a class defining spell. Aerilak stated "Your primary role is actually dps which you do pretty well. Debuffs are a seconday role, but on raids debuffs are already pretty plentiful. Another secondary abilitity is hate through taunts, hate transfer and now Sleight of Hand. You can see this on your epic you got a dps bonus, a powerful debuff and a boost to hate transfer." I take this to mean that he didn't give us a dps lvl 80 spell because we already do "pretty well". And he didn't do a debuff lvl 80 spell because raids already have a lot of debuffs. I have to ask, didn't other (maybe most) classes get lvl 80 spells that support their primary role? And we didn't get a debuff spell because of raids??? A year later, the raiding bias that reveals still amazes me. I know I don't raid regularly. I suspect most don't raid regularly. At the least, I'd bet the farm and the outhouse, too, that the vast majority of players solo or do single groups far more often then they raid. Yet, we didn't get a debuff spell because it's not good for raiding.So, instead of something truly useful like dps or debuffs we get a hate transfer (of a sort). Yes, it does fit with our class. However, it's our level 80 class spell! A spell that Aerilak stated "I will agree its a purely situational spell. It's not something you will use every time its up." The reality is that it's so situational as to be the next thing to useless. Aerilak said regarding level 80 spells, "... Not every spell is going to have the worth of a summoner's pet, bolt of ice, a backstab or a primary heal. Scanning the broker though every class has a few that fall into this category and they are largely situational or non primary use spells." Clearly, he views the level 80 spell as just another spell. And if that truly were how the level 80 spell was advertised, so to speak, then I'd agree. Some spells are good, some aren't. Except that the level 80 spell was billed as, and everyone understood it to be, our class defining spell. I can't see how a class defining spell can simply be just another spell - it should be special. Even if SoH has some small utility, no class defining spell should work only occasionally.

Errolflynn

06-08-2009, 08:33 AM

<cite>Tyger@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>So both of you regularly use it to manage other people's aggro?</blockquote>No, I use it regularly to manage my own aggro. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" />Especially since I have the "Signet of Betrayal". <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" />

Katanalla

06-08-2009, 09:45 AM

Yea lol, take off signet of betrayal?! I opt for trading hate with the troub in G4, he never gives me Jcap anyways, they deserve to die!

Foolsfolly

06-08-2009, 06:00 PM

Swapping with any priest and most bards will normally put me at <10% hate. Combined with our other 2 hate-position lowering abilities(3 if you have a racial ability) it's pretty much impossible for an alert swashy to steal agro, unless the tank is totally worthless.Of course with a good tank, stealing agro isn't much of an issue anyway..so no, I don't really need SoH for deagro regularly.I have however found a few raid encounters which like to wipe the tank completely off their agro list. If you're alert, you can stick them right back up near the top the instant they lose agro.

Trojenn

07-17-2009, 12:11 AM

With TSO and the increase in DPS that we can do, I have actualy found this spell to be quite handy. yes yes, I am the original creater of this thread and now I am in a since reinforcing the spell. I do not agree it is class defining and I still say we should have gotten something better but eh, gotta make do with what we have right?.The way I use the spell, I have 5 Icons of the spell on my Hotbars. 1 that is blank and is used for either pulling agro or when I tank and use it for a rescue. The other 4 are macroed to my MT Healers a few random other healers. I go all out all the time, when I get close to 90% Hate, bammm back down to <10%. With SoH and our few other hate reductions, I hardly EVER pull agro unless its on a 100% Max Burn on trash that we use for Contests to see who can parse the highest. PoTAO anyone, the trash there is great for this. Save all temps and everyone in raid actualy gets a 10 count and ya just blow it up, yeah well I have killed myself several times that way but its fun.Oh and as far as the Signet of Betrayal goes, its fairly worthless now. Since the change to crits to procs I actualy do not see an increase in DPS like I used to. I have now retired it and my Hate issues has since decreased " some " <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> .

Thunndar316

12-08-2009, 04:31 PM

I do not have space on my hotbar for this useless piece of ****.Now that the almighty Aerilak is gone can we please get this garbage replaced with something useful? I did not roll a Rogue to manage hate. I rolled a Rogue to DPS like a Rogue is supposed to do.

Rippitt

12-08-2009, 11:35 PM

We don't need anything useful because we're pretty much still (and tso definitely amplified this) the most overpowered class in game. Just don't put it on your hotbar and pretend you are too good for a level 80 ability.

DngrMou

12-25-2009, 07:50 PM

<cite>Rippt@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>We don't need anything useful because we're pretty much still (and tso definitely amplified this) the most overpowered class in game. Just don't put it on your hotbar and pretend you are too good for a level 80 ability.</blockquote>Codswallop. Buffs from other classes might be overpowered. Some TSO gear might be overpowered. Swashbucklers, as a class, are not. Since most swashy's don't have every item of must-have TSO gear, or raid in a top end guild, this business of being overpowered applies to a minority, at best. Meanwhile, the subject of this thread, Sleight of Hand, is superflous, duplicates, (and conflicts with), the abilities of other classes, provides nothing for our primary, or secondary roles, (DPS/Debuffs), and quite simply does not belong in the swashy stable of abilities. I'd much rather see something that boosts DPS, or debuffs.Not that it will ever happen, we've been stuck with this pig for far too long.

Arciahand

01-03-2010, 03:05 PM

I think it is funny that people are still all up in arms about this spell. This spell reinforces a Swashies ability to: Group with lesser geared tanks and maintain DPS giving agro back when needed.Pull agro from a caster and then toss it via one of our other deagro spells right onto the tank.Kill your AFK tank for fun.No, Sleight of Hand is not the end-all of CAs, but an inteligent swashy can figure out when/how to use it effectively. Every tank I group with regularly knows I use it with my De-agro. It is important to let your tanks know you use this ability and when/how you will use it. Here is why:When pulling a large group of mobs (linked or not) use your AOEs to pull then SoH (target through the tank so you don't have to switch targets). Let the tank know you are going to do this so they do not taunt/attack before you do. This will allow you to open up with some major DPS, pass agro to the tank on every mob, and then you will be able to DPS your heart out without taking the chance that some mobs have less agro on the tank than others.It works great for Adds in a not-so-urgent manner as well. If an add gets away from the tank that is not an issue with a swashy around! grab that add, beat on it for a bit, then transfer via SoH.If you see no value in situational CAs, utility and anything that is not DPS based then you rolled the wrong class. The days of Swashies dominating the parse are likely to be numbered.

DngrMou

01-04-2010, 01:34 PM

<cite>Arciahand wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it is funny that people are still all up in arms about this spell. This spell reinforces a Swashies ability to: Group with lesser geared tanks and maintain DPS giving agro back when needed.Pull agro from a caster and then toss it via one of our other deagro spells right onto the tank.Kill your AFK tank for fun.No, Sleight of Hand is not the end-all of CAs, but an inteligent swashy can figure out when/how to use it effectively. Every tank I group with regularly knows I use it with my De-agro. It is important to let your tanks know you use this ability and when/how you will use it. Here is why:When pulling a large group of mobs (linked or not) use your AOEs to pull then SoH (target through the tank so you don't have to switch targets). Let the tank know you are going to do this so they do not taunt/attack before you do. This will allow you to open up with some major DPS, pass agro to the tank on every mob, and then you will be able to DPS your heart out without taking the chance that some mobs have less agro on the tank than others.It works great for Adds in a not-so-urgent manner as well. If an add gets away from the tank that is not an issue with a swashy around! grab that add, beat on it for a bit, then transfer via SoH.If you see no value in situational CAs, utility and anything that is not DPS based then you rolled the wrong class. The days of Swashies dominating the parse are likely to be numbered. </blockquote>When this little gem was brought out, it was followed up with the plan to remove swashy hate transfer. I believe that was it's intent...in which case it would, at least, be of some regular use. I have no desire to lose an ability with no gain, and as it is, it's superflous. It's too situational. I'm dps, and debuffs. That's what the class needs...not a sub standard replacement for a planned nerfing.

RingleToo

01-04-2010, 07:06 PM

<cite>Arciahand wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think it is funny that people are still all up in arms about this spell. This spell reinforces a Swashies ability to: Group with lesser geared tanks and maintain DPS giving agro back when needed.Pull agro from a caster and then toss it via one of our other deagro spells right onto the tank.Kill your AFK tank for fun.No, Sleight of Hand is not the end-all of CAs, but an inteligent swashy can figure out when/how to use it effectively. Every tank I group with regularly knows I use it with my De-agro. It is important to let your tanks know you use this ability and when/how you will use it. Here is why:When pulling a large group of mobs (linked or not) use your AOEs to pull then SoH (target through the tank so you don't have to switch targets). Let the tank know you are going to do this so they do not taunt/attack before you do. This will allow you to open up with some major DPS, pass agro to the tank on every mob, and then you will be able to DPS your heart out without taking the chance that some mobs have less agro on the tank than others.It works great for Adds in a not-so-urgent manner as well. If an add gets away from the tank that is not an issue with a swashy around! grab that add, beat on it for a bit, then transfer via SoH.If you see no value in situational CAs, utility and anything that is not DPS based then you rolled the wrong class. The days of Swashies dominating the parse are likely to be numbered. </blockquote>Well, I'll say again - and again - that if SoH were just a "regular", run-of-the-mill CA, then there really wouldn't be anything to complain about. As has been pointed out, some spells are simply better then others. Some are down right crappy. However, this is supposed to be our class defining spell - not just any ordinary kind of spell. That's how the lvl 80 spells were presented, and that's what everyone expected. And it's what most of the classes got.SoH is so situational as to be next to worthless - whether one is a smart swashy or not. In single groups, I can usually pull a rogue mob without resorting to SoH. Though, more often, even with an average tank rogue mobs will be rare, and even then the tank will get that rogue mob back before it's a real problem. In raids (where you usually have more then one tank for rescue duty), all that happens is that I die, because I haven't figured out how to stand up to a 4x mob without the heals or buffs or mitigation that a tank has.As a run-of-the-mill spell, SoH is one of the crappier ones. As a class defining spell, it's an embarassment.