Test vs Live, Me vs The Wall

[Outerspace]

<span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"></span></span><span style="font-size: small;">.</span>

[Lord Montague]

<p>Your numbers are fairly consistent with mine.  I wouldn't make too many assumptions in your conclusions.  Here's a few things I do know (with some of my own opinions).</p><p>1. Possess Essence can be used on an epic, as long as it isn't a named.  It seems less restricted than charm in that regard.  Whether or not it is useful outside of soloing is still debatable, and I have agreed it needs some tweaking (although I strongly disagree with a lot of my cohorts as to its effectiveness).</p><p>2. Of course you're going to see less damage using shockwave the way you did.  It's a long casting AoE that if you don't have a lot of targets isn't worth casting.  I'd expect that to be the same on live as it is on test.</p><p>3. The notion of the change to Cataclysmic Mind is to make it a buff, therefore it's gonna use buff mechanics.  And I could see situations where I would want to cast it on someone else from time to time.</p><p>4. I'm not so sure you've got enough data to make any assumptions on the stuns and stifles.  Bear in mind their primary purpose is not damage dealing but slowing mob DPS.  I know I would need to get into some longer duration fights to test this out more thorougly myself.</p><p>5. I actually like that Brainshock keeps some power drain, because that's a power drain that returns power to us and is so very fitting of the class.  Interesting point about Dissecting Gaze though...hmm.</p>

[Rarlin]

Nice info.

[Outerspace]

Yeah, you're right about Shockwave.I agree the Brainshock power return is good but I'd like to see the drain component turned into damage that's all. Same with Gaze.As for lacking data on the power drains, you're right again. I just wanted to convey that there was no "wow" factor when I looked at the parser as the numbers were insignificant. Approx 5% total damage came from them on test but thats using the T7 master Focus and T7 Adept 1 of Silence. I was thinking in terms of a raid cast order but obviously we can't really test any of that until it's live.

[Antryg Mistrose]

<cite>Outerspace wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: large;"><span style="font-size: x-small;"></span></span><b><span style="font-size: large;">Live Server </span></b><span style="font-size: x-small;"> <u><b><span style="font-size: small;">No pet, starting with 100% power</span></b></u></span><b><span style="font-size: large;">Test Server<span style="font-size: x-small;"> </span></span></b><span style="font-size: small;"><u><b>With Possessed Rock Shackle monk named Notsiris:</b></u><b><u>With Kunzar Scaleripper Possessed Essence named Notsiris (yes you can possess fish):</u></b></span></blockquote>Not sure I understand your methodology there - testing on live without volatile magic or a pet and on test with one?My Illusionist should have copied over to test by now and is carrying 20 coercer adept3's, so depending how enthusiastic I get about betraying, might have some similar testing to add.

[Outerspace]

I took a pet simply to show the kind of damage the possessed pet does and to demonstrate that even with such a pet we are not hitting 7k DPS. Note that it does have a different name and you can clearly see the damage done by me and by the possessed essence.I can't use a possession pet on Live, which is why I didn't, and I gave the reason for not using VM on Live so just add 25% to the numbers.I didn't use reactives on Live because they don't work on the wall but there are no other safe fights like that to compare with Test.I think thats everything. It wasn't intended to be scientific - indeed its not possible since the 3 main damage abilities on Test dont work on Live - just an example of the same fight on both servers, an example of the possession pet damage and a demonstration that our DPS isn't as overpowered as some illusionists are claiming.

[Rijacki]

<cite>Outerspace wrote:</cite><blockquote> just an example of the same fight on both servers, an example of the possession pet damage and a demonstration that our DPS isn't as overpowered as some illusionists are claiming.</blockquote>Unless you're one of the tip top most excellent coercers, though, (and I will readily admit -I- am not) your proof is only that you can't hit those numbers in a solo setting with only solo buffs. If you extrapolate what buffs could be on you in a given setting, yes the first round of changes was high and a bit overpowered.  The adjustments last night put it closer to "just right".

[Outerspace]

I am comparing like with like, same gear same player just different versions of coercer so you can see the difference. Its the difference thats important rather than the actual numbers. Fnar already showed he does over 1500 with no Convulsions, and mine is about that if you factor in that I didn't use Volatile Magic on the Live server. Or were you suggesting that a "good" coercer would do 7k on the wall but I only do 2.5k?I've just watched Revelx do 4k on the wall twice in succession on Test with no pet, although looking at the parse only one of his spells didnt crit and I guess 80+ spell crit and loads of +reuse isn't really an average player. I've watched a troub kill the wall faster than me again and again on Test as well. Maybe that troub was one of you lot, I don't know, I see a few people mention they have one <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /> Maybe I should hit their forums and scream for nerfs.The recent adjustments on Test didn't make a lot of difference to my numbers. I still kill the wall in 40-45 seconds although I did craft Absolute Silence Ad3 to replace my  T7 Adept 1 <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /> I didnt expect that to offset the reductions made by Kozak but who knows, maybe it does.Again I don't really see the point in comparing what I could do with all the best buffs on me compared to all other classes with the best buffs on them. Why not just compare class to class, no external buffs?

[Rulnest]

<p>Not sure how you can say that the comparison is valid when you use one of our main spells on test that you do not use on live ( basically if the spell works on live but not in your test sample you can not use it on test and say, see we are much better).  Then you go on to say that if you could of used the other spell it would of been even higher( doh you still were not useing it on live lol ).  oh  and the damage potential of hostage on test is only half that on live ( yes i know it is rarely used up on live, but even if half the procs go off, live will do more damge)  Other then that fact I enjoyed your post Thank You</p><p>Rulcer 73 coercer on Permafrost</p>

[KamidariTuibumbi]

<cite>Rules@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Not sure how you can say that the comparison is valid when you use one of our main spells on test that you do not use on live ( basically if the spell works on live but not in your test sample you can not use it on test and say, see we are much better).  Then you go on to say that if you could of used the other spell it would of been even higher( doh you still were not useing it on live lol ).  oh  and the damage potential of hostage on test is only half that on live ( yes i know it is rarely used up on live, but even if half the procs go off, live will do more damge)  Other then that fact I enjoyed your post Thank You</p><p>Rulcer 73 coercer on Permafrost</p></blockquote>If you're trying to imply that there's even a remote chance that hostage on live will fire all 5 procs before the 10s recast, you're nuts. It seldom even fires them all before its duration is up, which is 40 seconds.  I'll be generous and even say that all 5 are done in the 40 second duration every time, which we all know isn't true.  So you're looking at 5 procs every 40 seconds, vs 10 procs on test.  That seems like double the dps on test to me.I asked you in the testing area if you've actually tried the changes out, and I'll ask it again here...  Have you?  You certainly wouldn't be trying to claim our dps is being nerfed if so.

[-Aonein-]

<p> One minor issue with your so called *comparisons*, they were done after the changes to Test server early on the 6th........therefore you comparison is misleading and you would of done more like 4-5k on the wall.......or are you calling all the high end players on EQ2flames liars who posted reports and ACT parses along with you tube videos doing 7k dps, not to mention the other Coercers who have posted here in these same forums saying that they could reach the 7k dps mark?</p><p> Again your taking things out of context, I would like to see your ACT graph and someone else like Fnar post his comparison in reguards to yours.</p>

[Rarlin]

<cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> One minor issue with your so called *comparisons*, they were done after the changes to Test server early on the 6th........therefore you comparison is misleading and you would of done more like 4-5k on the wall.......or are you calling all the high end players on EQ2flames liars who posted reports and ACT parses along with you tube videos doing 7k dps, not to mention the other Coercers who have posted here in these same forums saying that they could reach the 7k dps mark?</p><p> Again your taking things out of context, I would like to see your ACT graph and someone else like Fnar post his comparison in reguards to yours.</p></blockquote>Dude, why are you picking a fight with someone when there have already been adjustments made?  You got your awesome lowering of DPS so you win.  Now just go enjoy it and shut up instead of trying to pick an old fight.

[-Aonein-]

<cite>Rarlin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> One minor issue with your so called *comparisons*, they were done after the changes to Test server early on the 6th........therefore you comparison is misleading and you would of done more like 4-5k on the wall.......or are you calling all the high end players on EQ2flames liars who posted reports and ACT parses along with you tube videos doing 7k dps, not to mention the other Coercers who have posted here in these same forums saying that they could reach the 7k dps mark?</p><p> Again your taking things out of context, I would like to see your ACT graph and someone else like Fnar post his comparison in reguards to yours.</p></blockquote>Dude, why are you picking a fight with someone when there have already been adjustments made?  You got your awesome lowering of DPS so you win.  Now just go enjoy it and shut up instead of trying to pick an old fight.</blockquote> Because the post is directed at me, or I should say, I am one of the people he is directing it at, so I am going to point out his flaws obviously especially when he is using the new test changes in reguards to trying to prove a *<b><u>old</u></b>* point from before the new changes were implemented.

[Rarlin]

<cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rarlin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> One minor issue with your so called *comparisons*, they were done after the changes to Test server early on the 6th........therefore you comparison is misleading and you would of done more like 4-5k on the wall.......or are you calling all the high end players on EQ2flames liars who posted reports and ACT parses along with you tube videos doing 7k dps, not to mention the other Coercers who have posted here in these same forums saying that they could reach the 7k dps mark?</p><p> Again your taking things out of context, I would like to see your ACT graph and someone else like Fnar post his comparison in reguards to yours.</p></blockquote>Dude, why are you picking a fight with someone when there have already been adjustments made?  You got your awesome lowering of DPS so you win.  Now just go enjoy it and shut up instead of trying to pick an old fight.</blockquote> Because the post is directed at me, or I should say, I am one of the people he is directing it at, so I am going to point out his flaws obviously especially when he is using the new test changes in reguards to trying to prove a *<b><u>old</u></b>* point from before the new changes were implemented.</blockquote>Look, I came across very harshly in my last post.  I apologize.  Just thought I'd heard the last of the we're fine vs lower our DPS argument. 

[Outerspace]

Haha when I saw so many sudden replies I might have known you had made some inflammatory posts here, Aonein.My post wasn't directed at anyone let alone you. When you start posting ACT graphics or even parses to prove your points maybe I will consider doing it. You whiners got your nerfs, thanks very much. I'd like to think my post was taken at face value but unsurprisingly this has not been the case. As for your comments about EQ2Flames, I'm not interested. I do read the site but you have to take a lot of whats said with a pinch of salt since most people on there are like you. I've not seen anyone on here claim they can do over 7k except you. That would mean they kill the wall in less than 18 seconds. Remember Hostage doesn't work on the wall and the new Despotic Mind spell wasn't on Test (I don't think).I accept I might be a bad player, my gear isn't very good and that other people would be able to do much more. Demonstrated by Revelx on test the other day. He did a clear 1000 DPS more on the wall and is, if I am not mistaken, an authority on EQ2Flames coercer forum. I'm not trying to say I am right or that I am better than anyone. I am posting real honest numbers that unlike 90% of those on here and EQ2Flames are not made up or set up in such a way to suggest that the class is more powerful or weaker than it actually is.If I can't cast reactives on a mob on Live then I can't cast them. Hostage, Spell Curse and Cataclysmic Mind don't work on the wall on Live, and Hostage doesn't work on Test. The Wall doesn't fight back, but most mobs don't when they are rooted anyway so Hostage would not have gone off (although on Test with the new change it should now work, but doesn't). The Wall is about the only mob with sufficient health to get a sustained damage reading without it killing me. I see the point you're trying to make, but I can't think of anything I can sustain damage on for that long without it killing me or without me needing to CC it.It's impossible to make a true comparison between Live and Test because spell functions have been changed, but I simply wanted to give a flavour of the kind of difference in spell damage output (rather than reactive) since not everyone can be bothered to go on the test server. Instead of making up numbers or choosing my top parse like some people I have just posted whatever numbers I did.I personally don't think in a raid it will be a massive amount different to Live really.But I have learned my lesson, I'll just do what Aonein does from now on and invent numbers off the top of my head and stop trying to post constructive things.

[Rijacki]

<cite>Outerspace wrote:</cite><blockquote>I accept I might be a bad player, my gear isn't very good and that other people would be able to do much more. Demonstrated by Revelx on test the other day. He did a clear 1000 DPS more on the wall and is, if I am not mistaken, an authority on EQ2Flames coercer forum. I'm not trying to say I am right or that I am better than anyone. <span style="color: #ff3300;">I am posting real honest numbers that unlike 90% of those on here and EQ2Flames are not made up or set up in such a way to suggest that the class is more powerful or weaker than it actually is</span>.</blockquote>I take offense to that.  My numbers were never made up and I was one of those saying the original changes on Test were on the over powered side, even for solo but especially when extrapolating the buffs and whatnot from groups and raids. I also never claimed 7K but I do think it might have been possible in -extreme- cases with all the right things lining up.  I never agreed with anyone that the spells on Live could do the extreme damage a select few claimed nor did I agree that the first pass of changes were the damage coercers would do if their current Live reactives "worked correctly" (and they do work correctly, just the rest of the game is built to make them not cause damage).I have my numbers before and after the 6th both from Test and Live with my own gear and comparing to myself.  The first changes were on the high side.  The adjustment on the 6th, at first glance, seems about right.  With the level 80 upgrade to the Mind line, it should be better than Cataclysmic Mind. There might still be some adjustments coming like Hostage working on the wall and maybe a reduction in the spell timers of Lash and Hostage. The GU is still on TEST the place where adjustments are made in response to the devs running the numbers and feedback from the players who actually go there and TEST the changes.It's not the Easy Button that the original changes on Test, but even with the adjustments of the 6th, it should be a marked increase in damage for -every- coercer with the really excellent ones still parsing above those who aren't as excellent. Enchanters should be defined by their ability and dedication not just by running in place between fights and getting as much T7 proc gear as they can find.

[pebyr]

i disagree that hostage can't fire all triggers in a couple of seconds.  Puppetmaster now has a use.  rofl.  The swarm pets do melee, and can fire all triggers of hostage in a no time at all.  Its really only useful in solo play, because player characters are better and dont take as long to cast.

[-Aonein-]

<cite>Outerspace wrote:</cite><blockquote>Haha when I saw so many sudden replies I might have known you had made some inflammatory posts here, Aonein.My post wasn't directed at anyone let alone you. When you start posting ACT graphics or even parses to prove your points maybe I will consider doing it. You whiners got your nerfs, thanks very much. I'd like to think my post was taken at face value but unsurprisingly this has not been the case. As for your comments about EQ2Flames, I'm not interested. I do read the site but you have to take a lot of whats said with a pinch of salt since most people on there are like you. I've not seen anyone on here claim they can do over 7k except you. That would mean they kill the wall in less than 18 seconds. Remember Hostage doesn't work on the wall and the new Despotic Mind spell wasn't on Test (I don't think).I accept I might be a bad player, my gear isn't very good and that other people would be able to do much more. Demonstrated by Revelx on test the other day. He did a clear 1000 DPS more on the wall and is, if I am not mistaken, an authority on EQ2Flames coercer forum. I'm not trying to say I am right or that I am better than anyone. I am posting real honest numbers that unlike 90% of those on here and EQ2Flames are not made up or set up in such a way to suggest that the class is more powerful or weaker than it actually is.If I can't cast reactives on a mob on Live then I can't cast them. Hostage, Spell Curse and Cataclysmic Mind don't work on the wall on Live, and Hostage doesn't work on Test. The Wall doesn't fight back, but most mobs don't when they are rooted anyway so Hostage would not have gone off (although on Test with the new change it should now work, but doesn't). The Wall is about the only mob with sufficient health to get a sustained damage reading without it killing me. I see the point you're trying to make, but I can't think of anything I can sustain damage on for that long without it killing me or without me needing to CC it.It's impossible to make a true comparison between Live and Test because spell functions have been changed, but I simply wanted to give a flavour of the kind of difference in spell damage output (rather than reactive) since not everyone can be bothered to go on the test server. Instead of making up numbers or choosing my top parse like some people I have just posted whatever numbers I did.I personally don't think in a raid it will be a massive amount different to Live really.But I have learned my lesson, I'll just do what Aonein does from now on and invent numbers off the top of my head and stop trying to post constructive things.</blockquote><p> More taking it out of context yet again. The reason your entire constructiveness is moot is because you tried to prove a point using the " <i>Since there has been so much speculation about the difference between Live and Test - with some claiming we do 7k or 10k DPS now</i>......" after they had already made the changes, did you even know they had made the changes? and if so why not say with the new changes, here is <b><u>my</u></b> DPS........</p><p> You personally don't think there will be much difference in raid from Live? I think you are just hoping it wont be cause your solo parse on the wall net you almost a 2k difference.........</p><p> Like Rijacki also said, and like many other people who have posted ACT parses proving what this really was, I would of taken offense also, but this post only demostrates how you play and doesn't show any real comparison at all because you simply have nothing to compare it with to begin with <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />, not to mention the disparity in your 4 Wall fights actually shows how you are still learning your new casting rotation which you won't really fully put to 100% effcient use for most likely a week from the learning curve as is. By the way, I see no graph here, I just see text, I see no ACT screen shots ethier, so whats to say what you say shouldn't be taken with a grain of salt also?</p><p> The only real comparison will be other Coercers posting here with thier finds then you will have a comparison but honestly man, slandering and all bs aside, making a comparison based of <b>*<u>old</u>*</b> changes is not cool, wouldn't mind seeing Pett's and Fnar's posts here on what they can do with these new changes, on mobs too by the way, not The Wall. Wait, they already have, they were two of the people you refuse to believe were doing 7k dps........but I guess you should take what they say with a grain of salt also.</p><p> There is a slight difference in posting constructively based around true comparisons vs your own personal findings with no comparisons.</p>

[Outerspace]

Oh Rijacki joins the queue now. Take offence all you like, I wasn't referring to any of your posts and anyone with half a brain would have known I was having a go at these non-coercers (none in particular) both here and in game making claims without any real numbers at all except those their "friend in VP" did. Indeed I can't even remember seeing any numbers that you posted although I know you maintain some website somewhere with screenshots on it.Honestly, with all this hostility and [Removed for Content] for tat rubbish it's no wonder the devs don't visit here too often.And yeah, thats actually an interesting point Pebyr and should in theory proc all the charges. Does Puppetmaster count as a melee attack though, because I bet if they find that 4 procs go off on the first "tick" of Puppetmaster, it will be nerfed.

[Outerspace]

No Aonein, I didn't know they had made changes that day and certainly wasn't attempting to deceive anyone.The wall has 130k health. Less health a mob has the more DPS. Sure I can and did do stupid numbers on solo mobs but anyone can and it proves nothing. Level 80 mobs in JW were going down in 3 seconds which is 6-7k DPS. I've not seen Pett or Fnar's posts here with those parses but if they were on that kind of mob before adjustments then I accept they are right. But parses on those prove nothing. Moaning about that is like moaning about a wizzy one shotting a solo mob and crying nerf because they did 20k DPS.I'm not going to bother defending the accuracy or fairness of my post because it was never intended to be 100% accurate nor fair. Just a flavour of an average coercer with average gear rather than a full fabled full proc gear 80-90% crit +30% reuse coercer which is all you see on EQ2Flames.I've already said I'm not posting ACT graphics until you start posting parses, and you haven't so I wont.How about you copy to test and post what your illusionist does on the Wall? I'll post graphs if you do.

[pebyr]

well it does count as melee, i actually used puppetmaster to trigger hostage on test.  Not sure if it does it all at once, but its pretty fast.  But if they have to nerf that, they have to nerf everything.  Heck right now, our reactives can fire all at once on an ae, the illusionist once fires pretty fast, considering how fast player characters can attack.  Fact is that puppetmaster is a slow cast and doesn't do much dps by itself.  So spell curse + cata mind + chain cast probably faster, over all.  But it does make both spells useable, which given puppetmasters current state, resurrects it from my spell book onto my hotbars, and even gets it used.  Never in a raid setting, because the raid can fire it faster, and you can be casting other stuff. 

[Outerspace]

My puppets dont seem to proc it.When I cast Tyrannous Mind on my mage pet it does crap damage.

[Lord Montague]

<cite>Outerspace wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I cast Tyrannous Mind on my mage pet it does crap damage.</blockquote>Of course that would be the case.  In my own personal observations mage pets have always typically been slow casters in comparisson.

[Outerspace]

I mean it hits for 1k rather than 3k.

[-Aonein-]

<p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=417471�" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...417471�</a></p><p> Here outerspace, now you have a comparison.</p>

[Outerspace]

Can't read them screens, they are too small. What's the DPS? 2.4k?You used T7 masters, I used T8 masters. Add some on to your numbers for that difference otherwise it's not fair.

[-Aonein-]

<cite>Outerspace wrote:</cite><blockquote>Can't read them screens, they are too small. What's the DPS? 2.4k?You used T7 masters, I used T8 masters. Add some on to your numbers for that difference otherwise it's not fair.</blockquote><p> You know I had this long drawn out post on the wheres, hows and whys, but I honestly can't be stuffed, I have seen first hand what the changes are still capable of and yes I am speaking in terms of the new changes to test on the 6th, still slightly over shooting the mark imho, but this is more then liekly what will go live next Tuesday so I will let the good Coercers do the story telling.</p>

[Strange]

Don't put any high expectation after what Aerlik posted in SK thread, check it out for urself.<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=417349�" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"> http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2...417349�</a>

[XFnarX]

Here's a few of my parses from Live and TestLIVE PARSE:<img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2278/2487985094_affc0d53f7_o.jpg" alt="" border="0" />TEST PARSE:<img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2365/2488005866_ac9318d0e8_o.jpg" alt="" border="0" />Nice improvement, but not OP anymore in the least.

[Rijacki]

<cite>XFnarX wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here's a few of my parses from Live and TestLIVE PARSE:TEST PARSE:Nice improvement, but not OP anymore in the least. </blockquote>Interesting to note that only 9% of your Test parse came from items.  To me, too, that's a good change.I agree that the change, as it is now, is a nice improvement and isn't overpowered.  I wouldn't mind if the recast on Lash and Hemorage weren't increased as they are now on Test, but the recast IS to temper the amount of damage, too.  I would rather, though, if they'd only reduced the damage (vs the original Test changes) or increased the recast and not both.

[noobslayer]

<p>That parse is crap.  You can't cast half your spells on that wall on live. </p><p>Nothing is good about our base spell damage getting nerfed.  The buffs to our AAs dont  even make up for it.</p>

[XFnarX]

<cite>noobslayer wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>That parse is crap.  You can't cast half your spells on that wall on live. </p><p>Nothing is good about our base spell damage getting nerfed.  The buffs to our AAs dont  even make up for it.</p></blockquote>I was simply listing 2 parses on the same exact mob in the same exact setting to show the difference. Obviously it won't accurately predict the actual DPS people will be doing on raids, but it does give some people info and ideas on how things will sort of look. Plus the title of the [Removed for Content]' post is <b> "Test vs Live, Me vs The Wall",  </b>and that's exactly what I posted. Now go drive your short-bus full of complaints somewhere else please! Thanks! (^_-)d

[noobslayer]

<p>These are probably the least thought through changes made to the game to date.</p><p> Most of the AA changes aren't so bad, but Volitile magic getting bumped to 15% will crush the base spell dmg most dps specced enchanters aim for.  Some will be happy to no longer sprint constantly, but for most, they have balanced their gear to be able to do this for that extra dps they will no longer have.  This bonus effects an enchanters base spell dmg which also effects their spell damage cap and will reduce their overall dps by 25-30% rather then the more apparent change do to the spell damage cap and the extra damage provided by crits based on your base dmg.</p><p>Mana drains may have no application in raids, but they do in soloing.  Draining most mobs leaves the majority with auto attack which is a sever nerf, losing these weakens any enchanter using such tactics.</p><p>Coercers more specifically:</p><p>Possession is both overpowered and useless all at the same time and it needs a change, but adding a spell that really does nothing more then give a coercer a pet to farm lower lvl zones is kinda redundant.  The sever cost to conc slots makes it useless on raids, rather then add conc slots perhaps just not allowing it in combination with charm would have been more effective, or not making it a pet based spell at all.  The idea was neat, not being able to use it on engaged mobs made the original spell almost completely uselss past its insanely low range.</p><p>Changing 3 of our spells to basically the same spell lowers our options in combat even if doing such ups our dps.  Lowering the base damage on them and the recast timers blunts the dps bonus by having reactives that instantly go off in groups and raids to the point that they are not much more useful then the orignal spells so we are only left with fewer options and spells that hit for less.  As mentioned earlier, base spell damage effects many factors, the most basic of them spell damage caps and total damage with crits applied.</p><p>Adding damage to silence mean that silence once again breaks mez, its not like its even enough damage to make up for it. I rather cast my intterupt, its faster.  Only use this really has is in soloing where stifles help and it renders the spell less useful with it breaking mezz the way it now does.</p><p>The only thing these changes do is nerf our class further and fix AA's that were underpowered to begin with.</p>

[noobslayer]

If you thought coercers were not hitting hard enough, well the easy simple fix is to simply up their base damage instead of a bunch of fancy nerfs that kills half the class.

[XFnarX]

<cite>noobslayer wrote:</cite><blockquote>Adding damage to silence mean that silence once again breaks mez, its not like its even enough damage to make up for it. I rather cast my intterupt, its faster.  Only use this really has is in soloing where stifles help and it renders the spell less useful with it breaking mezz the way it now does.</blockquote>Um... why would you stifle something that's already mezzed. (o.O)? Make sense first sir, then complain later.And please stay on topic here --> <span class="postbody"><b> "Test vs Live, Me vs The Wall"</b> Post your data or  findings on stuff that you've tested / parsed. The complaining thread is here --> <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=417310" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">HERE</a></span>

[noobslayer]

<p>Your right I am off topic, but to answer you, stifle then daze before you break your mez means when the mez is gone you can attack, with a nuke on each you now have to have a stun up to do the same, or play with root, it kills options is all.</p>

[XFnarX]

Daze always did damage.... now stifle does too... option didn't change at all. Just back off more than 7m (normal melee hit box range), root, then stifle, then Daze, if you must open with that. I always open with IF because it refreshes the fastest and you can normally get 2 of these off per round. Either way it's still technically "an option" just has a 5% chance of breaking for like 3k extra damage... I'm sold. lol

[Rijacki]

<cite>XFnarX wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Um... why would you stifle something that's already mezzed. (o.O)? Make sense first sir, then complain later.<span class="postbody"></span></blockquote>The reason I could see would be only on a PvP server.  Mez + stifle + stun, power drain without the target being able to do anything about it.  Even with the shortened duration and/or immunity timer (I think it has an immunity timer in PvP), you've gone a long way to disarming an opponent reliant on power. I do know the only ones who've been complaining about the loss of the biggest power drains (the little ones which did damage before are unchanged) are PvPers.

[Outerspace]

Well they got our pets nerfed, so we're equal now

[Roald]

<cite>Outerspace wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well they got our pets nerfed, so we're equal now</blockquote><p>You're pretty stupid, if you truely believe that.</p><p>Anyways, after the GU45 changes I'm quitting playing my Coercer, possibly EQ2. I just don't see the point in playing such a weak class.</p><p>Lets just hope AoC, and the Devs there actually have the tiniest notion of PvP balance when making huge changes to classes.</p>

[Outerspace]

<cite>Milambers@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Outerspace wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well they got our pets nerfed, so we're equal now</blockquote><p>You're pretty stupid, if you truely believe that.</p><p>Anyways, after the GU45 changes I'm quitting playing my Coercer, possibly EQ2. I just don't see the point in playing such a weak class.</p><p>Lets just hope AoC, and the Devs there actually have the tiniest notion of PvP balance when making huge changes to classes.</p></blockquote>It's whats called a joke. Perhaps I should have used a smiley.I just don't see the point in playing PvP on a PvE game myself (and with 20-something classes it's never going to be balanced fully).As for AoC, well it sure aint balanced at the moment on beta but I am sure they will do their best to handle it. Can't really compare a brand new PvP game that isn't even out yet with one that started out as a PvE game 3 years ago anyway.