Tears and Frustration [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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seamus

05-06-2008, 01:33 PM

Here is one example of why SK's are considered [Removed for Content] by many people:...Shadowknights take a bit to develop aggro - they don't have good tools for getting and keeping snap aggro. A SK builds hate gradually, so your group members need to start slow with debuffs and small damage arts/spells, then open up once aggro is firmly established. SKs are slow to solo... their DPS isn't super high....Here is the profile of the SK giving this 'advice' on the newbie forum: <a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/characters/character_profile.vm?characterId=436229109" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alfsvarta</a>Note she is wearing Plate armor, not Devout. She has 8 points in Avenger's STR and Lego's INT and nothing in the SK tree, i.e. no Infernal Blessing. As long as there are folks playing this class that don't have a clue we've lost the perception war.

Uggli

05-06-2008, 02:21 PM

Don't see what your criticism of that players gear or AA's has to do with the SK's issues. There are many schools of thought on how to properly equip and AA slot the SK. I ditched a lot of INT gear for AGI gear when I hit T8 as I needed all the help tanking I could get. Yes my DPS suffered, but I was able to tank much better for the groups I was in.But I understand your frustration. Perhaps your time would be better spent giving a different point of view to the noobs the other SK was addressing. Point out that when fit with INT gear and INT crits maxed out in the AA line, SK's are one of the better solo classes.

Seolta

05-06-2008, 03:43 PM

The Newb SK who's saying that is lvl57.....ie. doesn't have Deathmarch yet. His/her viewpoint is totally valid at that level.Of course, since Deathmarch is a non-upgraded spell and is amount rather than percent based, we even have aggro issues with it now.I'm sure most 80 SK's in here can tell you about high DPS classes (mainly assass wiz and 'locks) pulling aggro through DM almost at will.If Deathmarch isn't upgraded/updated or replaced by a better ability, we will find it relatively useless after the next expansion hits and DPS goes up accross the board again.We DO have some unjustified PR problems...but unfortunately the real issues surrounding the problems have been gradually getting worse, not better IMO.

seamus

05-06-2008, 04:06 PM

I think you misunderstand Uggliey. Plate is sta, wis, int gear. Vanguard is the str, sta, agil gear. Devout is str, sta, int gear. She's using Plate. She is also using primarily sta, wis, and int jewelry.So she has very low strength, an abundance of wisdom and very little agi. I agree with you I prefer the melee oriented jewelry and go with Devout armor. I see using the sta/wis/int jewelry primarily for dps builds, in a group.She wastes 8 points in her AA's to get more str and int and yet doesn't have the Infernal Blessing upgrade from the reaving line. In fact she hasn't spent a single point in the SK tree even though she has the points to spend there.Yet she talks about SK's having trouble with agro and are a poor solo class. I dunno about you but I rock solo, especially in encounters and I can explore heroic instances well solo. In groups I rock, aggro is not an issue. I duo heroic instances with my wife's wizard and aggro is not an issue. Keep in mind my wife plays a nuke happy Wiz.It is an SK's value to a raid guild where the class has issues and lack of encounters in ROK. SK's are fine group tanks its the poor perception of the class as propgated by folks like Alfsvarta that is frustrating. For all the tweaks/improvements SOE could give SK's the class doesn't really need much.BTW the only plate tank that doesn't really have a problem with snap aggro post ROK is the guardian. Yeah its not so much an issue for Paladins but only the Guardian has it easy mode for snap aggro and I don't think that'll change.

Darkc

05-06-2008, 04:32 PM

One major problem with SKs is that there's no "cookie cutter" best way to build one. There's so many gear and AA aproaches that you can take that no one really knows whats best. Most of the tanking stuff has no int, most of the DPS stuff lacks str and defensive mods... then we have these AA lines that one would think "Hey, if I go down the HATE line... then I should have no problem keeping aggro"... which fails as advertised, but to a newer SK would seem like the logical choice. Then we have the whole "perception" issue. Warriors have buffs that increase mitigation and thus take less damage, not a whole lot of health ping pong. SKs on the other hand use self healing to mitigate damage... so in a healers eyes, watching your health bar going down fast and up fast gives the impression that we suck as tanks.

jagermonsta

05-06-2008, 04:52 PM

I see Seamus's point. A Shadowknight isn't as... effortless as say a Guardian. The game is not nearly as catered to us as it is for warrior classes. Equipping the class takes more thinking as does choosing efficient AA's. I'll even go as far to say playing the class is more challenging when it comes to using the correct spells/skills at the right time to optimize your effectiveness. We have to work hard to tank, we have to work hard to DPS. Unfortunately most Shadowknights don't understand these things. They tend to be pretty casual players that don't take the time to research or even try. Due to the fact there are so many Shadowknights and a lot of them fit this description it gives them a bad reputation. I'm not saying the class is perfect, it has flaws but I also don't think it's as bad as many think.<a rel="nofollow" href="http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/effortless" target="_blank"></a>

Tiberuis

05-06-2008, 07:21 PM

Hmmm...... I have researched my toon.I am pretty much mastered out.I have significant T8 fabled gear.I have been playing my SK as my Main since launch. I think I've got the hang of it.Against the toughest group content, contested mobs, and raid mobs, I cannot Tank or DPS as well as an equally equipped Guardian. Ever.Period. I respectfully disagree with you. The base SK class is not currently equal to the other plate tanks. In fact, as it stands right now, it is not even close.

DMIstar

05-07-2008, 12:30 AM

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Against the toughest group content, contested mobs, and raid mobs, I cannot Tank or DPS as well as an equally equipped Guardian. Ever.</blockquote>And you won't .. This post shows how far people are straying in stats in the end... All I see everyday inspecting toons is huge stat variances... And I mean huge.. meanwhile I inspect guards/bersekers.. I see similarities .... not exact, but a build in mind... People say theres different ways to build an SK.. .But if you actually sit there and calculate the gains vs other classes you will see, that you are effectively getting nowhere ... The More AGI you have, the less INT you have... The More AGI will give you a better chance at avoidence.. But in turn your Lifetaps/spells/threat drops significantly... More INT and you get hit more... A gaurd/berserk at 600str600sta600agiVs. An SK at 600str600sta300agi300int Is going to out class you, His DPS will be Higher, Even Base numbers will show this .. As well as his avoidence will be.. The only even ground we have is the STA stat... Throw an SK at..600str600sta600agi You get an SK trying to be a guard/zerker and his DPS/threat will fail miserabley on hits head... YOu might as well give up aggro control.At.600str600sta600int Which SOE is literally stateing the progression line that we are .. We Get our control, but we do get hit more then what a guard gets... the Buffers for this is A. Higher Mitigation ... B. Lifetaps .... This system is there but it needs to be tweaked badly... Our legendary and Mid Tier gear further throws off.

jagermonsta

05-07-2008, 09:48 AM

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmmm...... I have researched my toon.I am pretty much mastered out.I have significant T8 fabled gear.I have been playing my SK as my Main since launch. I think I've got the hang of it.Against the toughest group content, contested mobs, and raid mobs, I cannot Tank or DPS as well as an equally equipped Guardian. Ever.Period. I respectfully disagree with you. The base SK class is not currently equal to the other plate tanks. In fact, as it stands right now, it is not even close.</blockquote>Well I can't tell you what you're doing wrong.I don't have an issue staying up, keeping aggro most of the time or pulling back aggro.Hmmm......

Tiberuis

05-07-2008, 10:29 AM

<cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmmm...... I have researched my toon.I am pretty much mastered out.I have significant T8 fabled gear.I have been playing my SK as my Main since launch. I think I've got the hang of it.Against the toughest group content, contested mobs, and raid mobs, I cannot Tank or DPS as well as an equally equipped Guardian. Ever.Period. I respectfully disagree with you. The base SK class is not currently equal to the other plate tanks. In fact, as it stands right now, it is not even close.</blockquote>Well I can't tell you what you're doing wrong.I don't have an issue staying up, keeping aggro most of the time or pulling back aggro.Hmmm......</blockquote>You missed the point. The point is the base SK class is not currently equal to the other plate tanks right now. Go tank some contested X2, or raid zone or X4 raid mobs. Compare your aggro control, and parse yourself defensively, and your DPS, vs. the other plate tank classes, equally geared out. You will see exactly what I mean.We are losing, and have lost, many of the best SK's in the game on many servers. They are re-rolling other plate tank classes, or quitting the game entirely. Thier posts are all over these forums, and have been for years.It is not because our class is unplayable. It is because we are not balanced against the other plate tank classes. We need the Dev's to do something about this.

jagermonsta

05-07-2008, 10:52 AM

I see...So far I've only tanked Tomb of Thuuga. I honestly can't say I had much of an issue but yeah I haven't yet had the chance to hit up any harder tiers but that.Are we suppose to be balanced? Are we suppose to tank as good as warriors? Who said we were? Are Guardians not in the game for that reason?Besides tanking Shadowknights want utility in a raid. Something that makes raid's say "We need an SK." or at least to have Shadowknights considered for DPS as Berserkers are. Sure I believe we could use a little something... but honestly I don't feel as gimped as many people here do and I'm not even super geared. I feel I hold my own and I certainly don't loathe over the comments and such that are made regarding Shadowknights by other players, I do my best to prove them wrong by trying that much harder then the rest.

seamus

05-07-2008, 11:11 AM

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmmm...... I have researched my toon.I am pretty much mastered out.I have significant T8 fabled gear.I have been playing my SK as my Main since launch. I think I've got the hang of it.Against the toughest group content, contested mobs, and raid mobs, I cannot Tank or DPS as well as an equally equipped Guardian. Ever.Period. I respectfully disagree with you. The base SK class is not currently equal to the other plate tanks. In fact, as it stands right now, it is not even close.</blockquote>Well I can't tell you what you're doing wrong.I don't have an issue staying up, keeping aggro most of the time or pulling back aggro.Hmmm......</blockquote>You missed the point. The point is the base SK class is not currently equal to the other plate tanks right now. Go tank some contested X2, or raid zone or X4 raid mobs. Compare your aggro control, and parse yourself defensively, and your DPS, vs. the other plate tank classes, equally geared out. You will see exactly what I mean.We are losing, and have lost, many of the best SK's in the game on many servers. They are re-rolling other plate tank classes, or quitting the game entirely. Thier posts are all over these forums, and have been for years.It is not because our class is unplayable. It is because we are not balanced against the other plate tank classes. We need the Dev's to do something about this.</blockquote>I agree we are weaker then Guardians at tanking, all tanking classes are, but that doesn't mean we can't get the job done. However, I see no difference in tanking capability between my zerker, paladin and sk. I like both my zerker and sk about equally and my paladin is much more of a challenge in duo's and solo (power drain is a big issue for me when not in a group). Yes the Paladin is easy mode for groups, but rogues take agro just as easily from any of my tank classes if they want and I get it back about equally well with all my tank classes. Of course I don't raid, but I wasn't talking about raiding, I was talking about solo, duo and group effectiveness and perception of SK effectiveness.Slightly OT: When it comes to raid desirability all plate tanks are in the same boat, even Guardians. The bottom line is that raids only need 2 or 3 tanks so demand for any tank class is and always will be low, until SOE provides raid content that requires 3 or 4 tanks. Seriously can you imagine them putting raid content in that required more?I'd like to point out that I was talking about a mid-level sk, inappropriately geared and spec'd giving advice out about our class that was wrong. Sorry, Plate gear is not appropriate for an SK, its meant for priests. Devout and Vanguard are. Using sta, wis, int jewelry may be appropriate for a dps build, but when soloing, duoing and tanking I find the str, sta, agi jewelry much more effective. For an SK to say they have trouble soloing but not have 8 or 10 points in the Reaving line when they have ample points is a sure sign that SK is missing some important knowledge. This SK also had a poor impression of our encounter capabilities, something the SK is very strong at, better then any other plate tank. I live for encounters, I burn through them easily.IMO the primary problems facing the SK class are lack of encounter content in RoK, itemization (SK's need STR, STA, AGI, and INT gear with appropriate mods; SOE really does a terrible job), some better scaling on our spells and CA's, and something unique we can bring to a raid guild. I really don't see raid guilds falling over themselves to grab an SK for a raid-wide Death March. A problem is that the class already solo's and duo's very well so they can't beef up the class a lot because it will trivialize the content further.

Tiberuis

05-07-2008, 11:14 AM

<cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I see...So far I've only tanked Tomb of Thuuga. I honestly can't say I had much of an issue but yeah I haven't yet had the chance to hit up any harder tiers but that.Are we suppose to be balanced? Are we suppose to tank as good as warriors? Who said we were? Are Guardians not in the game for that reason?Besides tanking Shadowknights want utility in a raid. Something that makes raid's say "We need an SK." or at least to have Shadowknights considered for DPS as Berserkers are. Sure I believe we could use a little something... but honestly I don't feel as gimped as many people here do and I'm not even super geared. I feel I hold my own and I certainly don't loathe over the comments and such that are made regarding Shadowknights by other players, I do my best to prove them wrong by trying that much harder then the rest.</blockquote>SK's are plate tanks, so yes, we should be able to plate tank as well as the other plate tanks. But we clearly cannot.If we cannot tank as well as the other plate tanks, then we should be able to DPS as well as the other plate tanks. But we clearly cannot.If we cannot tank, or DPS as well as the other plate tanks, perhaps we should have some truly useful raid utility that we can contribute, so we can help to defeat the toughest content in the game. But we clearly don't have any great raid utility on par with most other classes.So what's it going to be, SOE?

seamus

05-07-2008, 11:19 AM

jagermonsta

05-07-2008, 11:21 AM

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>SK's are plate tanks, so yes, we should be able to plate tank as well as the other plate tanks. But we clearly cannot.If we cannot tank as well as the other plate tanks, then we should be able to DPS as well as the other plate tanks. But we clearly cannot.If we cannot tank, or DPS as well as the other plate tanks, perhaps we should have some truly useful raid utility that we can contribute, so we can help to defeat the toughest content in the game. But we clearly don't have any great raid utility on par with most other classes.So what's it going to be, SOE?</blockquote>I don't know... I think you're asking for to much. You want to tank as good as a Guardian and DPS as good as say a Berserker... What would be the point of the other tanks if they were all equally the same? Sure I'd love to do all that but I'm being realistic...Should Shadowknights bring something to a raid that makes them wanted unlike now? Absolutely. Should Shadowknights MT for T8 raids over a equally geared and skilled Guardian? Not in my opinion.

seamus

05-07-2008, 11:27 AM

<cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't know... I think you're asking for to much. You want to tank as good as a Guardian and DPS as good as say a Berserker... What would be the point of the other tanks if they were all equally the same? Sure I'd love to do all that but I'm being realistic...Should Shadowknights bring something to a raid that makes them wanted unlike now? Absolutely. Should Shadowknights MT for T8 raids over a equally geared and skilled Guardian? Not in my opinion.</blockquote>I think Tiberuis is asking for one of the above, not all. Seems to be leaning towards some kind of utility, which would probably be the easiest thing the devs could give the class. Even if something like that happened don't expect SK's to start displacing someone in an established raid guild. Why? Perception and lack of knowledge about the class. At best we'd see SK's, already in guilds, who've rolled alts to get into raids be able to bring their SK's. I don't see a sudden increase in demand for SK's because of an uber buff. Certainly not if SK tanking is beefed up, guilds have established MT's/OT's and are comfortable with them and the strats they've developed with them.

Nacho Cheese

05-07-2008, 11:32 AM

<cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I see...So far I've only tanked Tomb of Thuuga. I honestly can't say I had much of an issue but yeah I haven't yet had the chance to hit up any harder tiers but that.Are we suppose to be balanced? Are we suppose to tank as good as warriors? Who said we were? Are Guardians not in the game for that reason?Besides tanking Shadowknights want utility in a raid. Something that makes raid's say "We need an SK." or at least to have Shadowknights considered for DPS as Berserkers are. Sure I believe we could use a little something... but honestly I don't feel as gimped as many people here do and I'm not even super geared. I feel I hold my own and I certainly don't loathe over the comments and such that are made regarding Shadowknights by other players, I do my best to prove them wrong by trying that much harder then the rest.</blockquote>I too had no major issues when I first MT'd Thugga on my SK, aggro or otherwise. The problems started once my guild started farming Protector's and Thugga and Pawbuster for better gear. Once everyone in your raid force starts getting the plus spell damage/crit and plus Melee crit gear and your Raid force starts hitting 30k to 40k dps, you will see you will not be able to keep up on your SK. You will hit a brick wall on aggro control. And your DPS will not scale to your Raid force's dps either. And you will find that your Raid force will have to start holding back and slowing down their DPS just so a gimped SK can tank.

jagermonsta

05-07-2008, 11:38 AM

<cite>Nacho Cheese wrote:</cite><blockquote>I too had no major issues when I first MT'd Thugga on my SK, aggro or otherwise. The problems started once my guild started farming Protector's and Thugga and Pawbuster for better gear. Once everyone in your raid force starts getting the plus spell damage/crit and plus Melee crit gear and your Raid force starts hitting 30k to 40k dps, you will see you will not be able to keep up on your SK. You will hit a brick wall on aggro control. And your DPS will not scale to your Raid force's dps either. And you will find that your Raid force will have to start holding back and slowing down their DPS just so a gimped SK can tank. </blockquote>Again... at that point and most of the time a Guardian should be MT, that's what they do. IMO.

Nacho Cheese

05-07-2008, 11:58 AM

<cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nacho Cheese wrote:</cite><blockquote>I too had no major issues when I first MT'd Thugga on my SK, aggro or otherwise. The problems started once my guild started farming Protector's and Thugga and Pawbuster for better gear. Once everyone in your raid force starts getting the plus spell damage/crit and plus Melee crit gear and your Raid force starts hitting 30k to 40k dps, you will see you will not be able to keep up on your SK. You will hit a brick wall on aggro control. And your DPS will not scale to your Raid force's dps either. And you will find that your Raid force will have to start holding back and slowing down their DPS just so a gimped SK can tank. </blockquote>Again... at that point and most of the time a Guardian should be MT, that's what they do. IMO.</blockquote>Wow, I am not sure what to say to that. I refuse to be satisfied with being a mediocre tank. And if that is SOE's plan for us, I will be moving on. Let's hope this is not the case.

seamus

05-07-2008, 12:05 PM

<cite>Nacho Cheese wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nacho Cheese wrote:</cite><blockquote>I too had no major issues when I first MT'd Thugga on my SK, aggro or otherwise. The problems started once my guild started farming Protector's and Thugga and Pawbuster for better gear. Once everyone in your raid force starts getting the plus spell damage/crit and plus Melee crit gear and your Raid force starts hitting 30k to 40k dps, you will see you will not be able to keep up on your SK. You will hit a brick wall on aggro control. And your DPS will not scale to your Raid force's dps either. And you will find that your Raid force will have to start holding back and slowing down their DPS just so a gimped SK can tank. </blockquote>Again... at that point and most of the time a Guardian should be MT, that's what they do. IMO.</blockquote>Wow, I am not sure what to say to that. I refuse to be satisfied with being a mediocre tank. And if that is SOE's plan for us, I will be moving on. Let's hope this is not the case.</blockquote>To put it another way Ranadin if what Guardians do is MT, what do SK's do or what should they do, at least in a raid environment? (BTW I don't think the designers/devs know the answer to this.)

DMIstar

05-07-2008, 12:30 PM

I think we are straying to much on peoples personal balance views.. rather then Game balance views here...We are not OT, we are not ST, We are a tank. This is been officially stated direction of this class. the devs will not come here and say we made a class as a OT or ST, this is not a game design thats being implemeted.. This is Peoples personal views .. In further Defineing abilities of tanks, Everquest said There are tanks with better control but takes more hits, While other tanks Take less hits but have less control.... This game addding DPS to this direction.. Hence moorguards old post. SK's are designed to Do More Damage/ rated with berserkersHave more Aggro ControlTake more hits defense wise...Right now, The takeing more hits part we are excelling at with flying colors...

jagermonsta

05-07-2008, 12:44 PM

<cite>seamus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>To put it another way Ranadin if what Guardians do is MT, what do SK's do or what should they do, at least in a raid environment? (BTW I don't think the designers/devs know the answer to this.)</blockquote>Shadowknights are capable of MTing T8 heroic content and select T8 Raids. That's what they can do in the roll of a 'tank'. That's not enough? Seems people believe they should be capable of tanking all T8 raid content just as good as a Guardian which is a class pretty much strictly designed be a main tank?... I don't find that fair to Guardians.When not capable of MTing a specific raid or in the case a Gaurdian is MTing the raid I never denied the fact Shadowknights lack some kind of useful utility. I agreed and noted that I believe they need something that makes them useful.

Soefje

05-07-2008, 12:49 PM

<cite>seamus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't know... I think you're asking for to much. You want to tank as good as a Guardian and DPS as good as say a Berserker... What would be the point of the other tanks if they were all equally the same? Sure I'd love to do all that but I'm being realistic...Should Shadowknights bring something to a raid that makes them wanted unlike now? Absolutely. Should Shadowknights MT for T8 raids over a equally geared and skilled Guardian? Not in my opinion.</blockquote>I think Tiberuis is asking for one of the above, not all. Seems to be leaning towards some kind of utility, which would probably be the easiest thing the devs could give the class. Even if something like that happened don't expect SK's to start displacing someone in an established raid guild. Why? Perception and lack of knowledge about the class. At best we'd see SK's, already in guilds, who've rolled alts to get into raids be able to bring their SK's. I don't see a sudden increase in demand for SK's because of an uber buff. Certainly not if SK tanking is beefed up, guilds have established MT's/OT's and are comfortable with them and the strats they've developed with them.</blockquote>What's wrong with doing both? To me any tank should be able to tank equally well in defensive stance, then do equal DPS in offensive stance. If this was the case, then any tank would be viable in any situation. We could find a role in raids, groups, solo, etc.As it stands now, SK have no role. For those of us that don't raid, we are starting to struggle in group settings and more and more people get gear upgrades and spell upgrades, we get outdistanced terribly. Aggro is becomes a problem, DPS is not where it should be and I finally give up on the SK. Heck, I have been told recently, twice, that I was not what the group was looking for in a tank. Arguing and explaining did no go. They went and got guardians for the instance zone.Good thing I have a high level warlock.

jagermonsta

05-07-2008, 01:52 PM

<cite>Kraace@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>What's wrong with doing both? To me any tank should be able to tank equally well in defensive stance, then do equal DPS in offensive stance. If this was the case, then any tank would be viable in any situation. We could find a role in raids, groups, solo, etc.As it stands now, SK have no role. For those of us that don't raid, we are starting to struggle in group settings and more and more people get gear upgrades and spell upgrades, we get outdistanced terribly. Aggro is becomes a problem, DPS is not where it should be and I finally give up on the SK. Heck, I have been told recently, twice, that I was not what the group was looking for in a tank. Arguing and explaining did no go. They went and got guardians for the instance zone.Good thing I have a high level warlock.</blockquote>Why have so many different plate tanks in a game if in the end they are all the same? I'm sorry you have an issue doing T8 heroic instances, I don't. Perhaps you should review your play style, AA structure & equipment choices.

DMIstar

05-07-2008, 02:18 PM

<cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why have so many different plate tanks in a game if in the end they are all the same? </blockquote>Why have so many DPS classe in the game, if in the end they all do the same?Well the same thing with Tanks, Diveristy... Yes we are in the end going to do the same thing.. Tank.. Same with healers same with DPS classes. But we do so in different styles. But the end results are similar or have respective counterparts. Do all the healers heal the same way ? No, Do they show similar results ? yes. Same with DPSIng ... Why do we have this ? Variety, People like different plays styles and thats a marketable thing.. To make sure all the play styles work. The company does not design Content based on one particular class. Until Developement steps up and Re-writes thier statesments and designs on content now being focused on certain classes.. Stuff like Guards are the "True" tanks are false statements. and are personal views and not current game direction views. with your statements and others statements Its quite clear that the Guards are leaning over the balance for tankability, and a reconsideration of other classes is now something that needs to be looked into.

jagermonsta

05-07-2008, 02:35 PM

<cite>Istar@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why have so many different plate tanks in a game if in the end they are all the same? </blockquote>Why have so many DPS classe in the game, if in the end they all do the same?Well the same thing with Tanks, Diveristy... Yes we are in the end going to do the same thing.. Tank.. Same with healers same with DPS classes. But we do so in different styles. But the end results are similar or have respective counterparts. Do all the healers heal the same way ? No, Do they show similar results ? yes. Same with DPSIng ... Why do we have this ? Variety, People like different plays styles and thats a marketable thing.. To make sure all the play styles work. The company does not design Content based on one particular class. Until Developement steps up and Re-writes thier statesments and designs on content now being focused on certain classes.. Stuff like Guards are the "True" tanks are false statements. and are personal views and not current game direction views. with your statements and others statements Its quite clear that the Guards are leaning over the balance for tankability, and a reconsideration of other classes is now something that needs to be looked into. </blockquote>Do all DPS classes do the same amount of DPS? No. Do some DPS classes consistently do more DPS then others? Yes.Do all Healing classes heal as good as the next? No. Can some healing classes heal more effectively then others? Yes.So in your opinion... Do all tanks tank as good as the next? No. Should they? Yes.Diversity is what you're looking for? Then why should a Shadowknight tank as good as a Guardian? You act as if Shadowknights can not tank period.Each and every class brings something to the table. Some classes excel in one area better then another.Do you not understand that the Shadowknight is a hybrid? Since when can hybrid tanks tank as well as a solid warrior class.

DMIstar

05-07-2008, 02:50 PM

<cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Istar@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why have so many different plate tanks in a game if in the end they are all the same? </blockquote>Why have so many DPS classe in the game, if in the end they all do the same?Well the same thing with Tanks, Diveristy... Yes we are in the end going to do the same thing.. Tank.. Same with healers same with DPS classes. But we do so in different styles. But the end results are similar or have respective counterparts. Do all the healers heal the same way ? No, Do they show similar results ? yes. Same with DPSIng ... Why do we have this ? Variety, People like different plays styles and thats a marketable thing.. To make sure all the play styles work. The company does not design Content based on one particular class. Until Developement steps up and Re-writes thier statesments and designs on content now being focused on certain classes.. Stuff like Guards are the "True" tanks are false statements. and are personal views and not current game direction views. with your statements and others statements Its quite clear that the Guards are leaning over the balance for tankability, and a reconsideration of other classes is now something that needs to be looked into. </blockquote>Do all DPS classes do the same amount of DPS? No. Do some DPS classes consistently do more DPS then others? Yes.Do all Healing classes heal as good as the next? No. Can some healing classes heal more effectively then others? Yes.So in your opinion... Do all tanks tank as good as the next? No. Should they? Yes.Diversity is what you're looking for? Then why should a Shadowknight tank as good as a Guardian? You act as if Shadowknights can not tank period.Each and every class brings something to the table. Some classes excel in one area better then another.Do you not understand that the Shadowknight is a hybrid? Since when can hybrid tanks tank as well as a solid warrior class.</blockquote>Sorry but twisting it to exacts is not going to help your pointIs there a huge gap in abilities of healing ? NoIs there a Huge gap in abilities of DPS in classes ? Unfortuently i won't lie, yes with certain classes, Is this some sort of game design, well according to dev posts.. no"Diversity is what you're looking for? Then why should a Shadowknight tank as good as a Guardian? You act as if Shadowknights can not tank period."Anything can Tank if you crunch numbers and set up a group for it.. Hell I knew guilds in EQ that had wizards tank just for fun... But where not talking "omg i can go into a zone and tank it" We are talking comparisons per class. Each and every class brings something to the table. Some classes excel in one area better then another.This is what i can agree on and i said.. with respective diversities... Hence we are given Lifetaps and Mitigation over Guards/zerkers for a prime reason.. THis is to fill the avoidence gap. is this to fill the gap 100% no .. We are sac not haveing 100% for DPS gains... as it stands right now, its not being done.Now you act as if every guild should have a Gaurd as MT to go through all zones in the game, Includeing VP and SoH and the rest.. I call that a falsestatement that SoE has countered.

Phank

05-07-2008, 02:54 PM

<cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite> <blockquote><cite>Istar@Mistmoore wrote:</cite>Each and every class brings something to the table. Some classes excel in one area better then another.</blockquote>My concern with our class is not on the Heroic level. SKs can tank heroic instances as well as any other Fighter class. There are plenty of creative ways to build hate with our class.Now let's look at the Raiding aspect of the game. On the casual level, we're fine. But when we start to move towards the hardcore guilds, not many want a Shadowknight on their roster when they already carry two fighters. Guardian and Monk are a must. OT is usually a 2nd Guardian or a Berserker. If a Crusader must be guilded, the Paladin is the obvious choice for snap aggro (Amends, Holy Ground.)I happen to be very lucky and be in a hc guild that uses Guard as MT, Bers as MT/OT and SK and Monk as support tanks. The Paladin got a new job which opened up a spot for my SK. Before I joined my guild it took me nearly a month of daily messaging, posting and searching for a guild that wanted a SK. I logged into EQ2 Flames recruit forum every morning hoping... In that search I started to realize that we were screwed. I always thought the SK was a cool class and since I've played it from launch I never disbelieved in my ability. It's hard to convince the average raid leader that your skill however can overcome the handicap that Sony has given our class.- We do not possess a desired skill that improves the raid's chance as a whole to win.- We do not possess a snap aggro ability that is unique to our class (other than Touch of Death on the Mythical which btw doesn't override the Monk's Peel.) DM helps but isn't 100% reliable once hate list has been built. SKs hate over time always keeps them around 3-5th on the list.- Our avoidance is at the bottom of Fighter classes. Crusader really has to work and PAY to get their avoidance above 60%.- Our DPS is 6th among Fighter classes. Not much else to say here. We rely on +CA, +DA, +Spell Dmg, +Spell Crits. Therefore we have watered down our melee bonuses for balance.- Of our 5 Crusader AA Trees, 2 of the 5 are basically not employed by a majority of players. Once RoK launched, most SKs spec'd out of AGI due to lack of multiple encounters. And the Wisdom line has diminishing returns in this expansion. Fearless Morale is not even worth it for VS. I would rather walk/crouch than [Removed for Content] my DPS that badly.Bottom line, we are handicapped. Hardcore guilds that utilize us, are handicapping themselves. I love my guild, but I know they would be better off if I played a Berserker parsing 6k rather than my SK parsing 3k. It's basic math.

jagermonsta

05-07-2008, 03:01 PM

I don't need to say anything more to help my point because it's out there. You can ignore the fact that Shadowknights are not meant to be a pure tanking class like a Guardian or you can accept the fact we are not meant to be able to tank every epic instance in the game.You're looking to have Shadowknights tank as if they're a Guardian and that's not fair in my opinion. Some epic zones should just not be tankable by a hybrid class.On the other hand should Shadowknights be able to out DPS Guardians? Yes they should. Is there a lack of this happening for some players or is the ease of them being able to out DPS Guardians a issue? Yes. Trust me I don't think my class is perfect and there are areas that need to be looked at (spell and equipment scaling most of all along with raid utility) but wanting to be able to tank as good as a Guardian is just being greedy imo.

Soefje

05-07-2008, 03:36 PM

<cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kraace@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>What's wrong with doing both? To me any tank should be able to tank equally well in defensive stance, then do equal DPS in offensive stance. If this was the case, then any tank would be viable in any situation. We could find a role in raids, groups, solo, etc.As it stands now, SK have no role. For those of us that don't raid, we are starting to struggle in group settings and more and more people get gear upgrades and spell upgrades, we get outdistanced terribly. Aggro is becomes a problem, DPS is not where it should be and I finally give up on the SK. Heck, I have been told recently, twice, that I was not what the group was looking for in a tank. Arguing and explaining did no go. They went and got guardians for the instance zone.Good thing I have a high level warlock.</blockquote>Why have so many different plate tanks in a game if in the end they are all the same? I'm sorry you have an issue doing T8 heroic instances, I don't. Perhaps you should review your play style, AA structure & equipment choices.</blockquote>If you use this logic, why doesn't SOE just make 3 classes. DPS, Healer, Tank. Notice I said that a tank should be able to tank equally well, I think the original concept of warriors taking a beating, brawlers using avoidance and crusaders using heals/lifetaps to stay up is a valid and fun idea, it is just so out of wack now that it no longer works. Give each tank strenghts and weaknesses. Currently, the guardians (notice I did not say warriors here), have everything. They can take the beating and they can dish out the DPS. I will tell you that given the chance to betray to guardian, I would probably do so.As far as tanking T8 instance, I did not have a problem at first. It is only recently that it has become a problem, and I have tanked every zone. The DPS are getting master level spells, and gear upgrades to the point that my DPS and taunts can't over come that. When a wizzy can use 2 back to back spells that crit for 15K, I just can't keep up. Hell, I lose aggro to bruisers if they are not paying attention and just fighting. I was told by one group they wanted a guardian for the zone, b/c I would slow them down. I don't play in a raiding guild, so I will never be in fabled gear. So, here I am killing crabs over and over to do writs. I spend hours on my server (which seems like a ghost town now) LFG and sending tells to find a group. Many nights never get one. This game is losing my attention very fast. I have started looking at other MMOs, and it won't take much for me to say, adios EQ2.

jagermonsta

05-07-2008, 03:48 PM

<cite>Kraace@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>If you use this logic, why doesn't SOE just make 3 classes. DPS, Healer, Tank. Notice I said that a tank should be able to tank equally well, I think the original concept of warriors taking a beating, brawlers using avoidance and crusaders using heals/lifetaps to stay up is a valid and fun idea, it is just so out of wack now that it no longer works. Give each tank strenghts and weaknesses. Currently, the guardians (notice I did not say warriors here), have everything. They can take the beating and they can dish out the DPS. I will tell you that given the chance to betray to guardian, I would probably do so.As far as tanking T8 instance, I did not have a problem at first. It is only recently that it has become a problem, and I have tanked every zone. The DPS are getting master level spells, and gear upgrades to the point that my DPS and taunts can't over come that. When a wizzy can use 2 back to back spells that crit for 15K, I just can't keep up. Hell, I lose aggro to bruisers if they are not paying attention and just fighting. I was told by one group they wanted a guardian for the zone, b/c I would slow them down. I don't play in a raiding guild, so I will never be in fabled gear. So, here I am killing crabs over and over to do writs. I spend hours on my server (which seems like a ghost town now) LFG and sending tells to find a group. Many nights never get one. This game is losing my attention very fast. I have started looking at other MMOs, and it won't take much for me to say, adios EQ2.</blockquote>The 'logic' I guess went over your head. Really don't feel like explaining it again. I'm tanking the same T8 Instances as you with the same kind of players...

Darkc

05-07-2008, 03:49 PM

The way I see it, Guardians and Paladins were supposed to be the most "Defensive" Classes in EQ2. Guardians going down the pure physical path (CAs, and Mitigation temp buffs) and Paladins down the spell casting path (Heals, avoidance bonuses). They also provide defensively orientated group / raid buffs... Which for the most part I think happens pretty well. Then you have Berserker and SK. Once again "Defensive" in nature, but a bit more focused on DPS, AoE, and group DPS increase. Berserkers physical... SKs Spell casting. The biggest disconnect that we have is that while Berserkers have buffs that increase melee DPS full time, SKs have a 10 second temp buff thats available every 2 1/2 minutes. While Death March is cool and all, it really doesn't have much raid use with a few exceptions. On top of that Berserkers only have to concentrate on a few stats that are found on most good tanking gear anyway and weapons. We have to deal with gear and weapons that neglect our spell damage. Here's the biggest problem... notice if you go to the berserker boards, they betraying / quiting / whining as hard as us. The concept of an "Offensive" Defensive tank just doesn't work in EQ2... or at least it isn't done right. If our role isn't to MT because that's the "Defensive" Defensive tanks job... then make sure to put out another raid role for us. You can say that AoE encounters are our ticket, but those encounters are rare and far between now.

jagermonsta

05-07-2008, 03:59 PM

<cite>Darkc wrote:</cite><blockquote>The way I see it, Guardians and Paladins were supposed to be the most "Defensive" Classes in EQ2. Guardians going down the pure physical path (CAs, and Mitigation temp buffs) and Paladins down the spell casting path (Heals, avoidance bonuses). They also provide defensively orientated group / raid buffs... Which for the most part I think happens pretty well. Then you have Berserker and SK. Once again "Defensive" in nature, but a bit more focused on DPS, AoE, and group DPS increase. Berserkers physical... SKs Spell casting. The biggest disconnect that we have is that while Berserkers have buffs that increase melee DPS full time, SKs have a 10 second temp buff thats available every 2 1/2 minutes. While Death March is cool and all, it really doesn't have much raid use with a few exceptions. On top of that Berserkers only have to concentrate on a few stats that are found on most good tanking gear anyway and weapons. We have to deal with gear and weapons that neglect our spell damage. Here's the biggest problem... notice if you go to the berserker boards, they betraying / quiting / whining as hard as us. The concept of an "Offensive" Defensive tank just doesn't work in EQ2... or at least it isn't done right. If our role isn't to MT because that's the "Defensive" Defensive tanks job... then make sure to put out another raid role for us. You can say that AoE encounters are our ticket, but those encounters are rare and far between now. </blockquote>There we go... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Soefje

05-07-2008, 04:00 PM

<cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The 'logic' I guess went over your head. Really don't feel like explaining it again. I'm tanking the same T8 Instances as you with the same kind of players...</blockquote>No, it did not go over my head. The point of this thread and the multitude of other is that give equal equipment, and equal level spells, the SK class is the bottom of the list in tanking and in DPS compared to other fighters. This should not be the case. If the guardian is supposed to be able to take the tremendous beating, then they should not have the DPS. If the SK can't take the beating, then they should have the DPS to make it up. We have neither. The "promise" that every fighter can tank equally effectively, is no longer true.What you haven't told us is are you a raiding SK, that has fabled gear, mythical weapon, etc, playing with the same guild groups in the instance zones. If that is the case, then I challenge you. Change to legendary gear only, no fabled items unless they were obtained by a quest, no epic weapon. Get a pick up group, just send out a call and take the first 2 healers and 3 DPS and go into Maiden's. Then tell me what happens.

DMIstar

05-07-2008, 04:10 PM

"Here's the biggest problem... notice if you go to the berserker boards, they betraying / quiting / whining as hard as us. The concept of an "Offensive" Defensive tank just doesn't work in EQ2... or at least it isn't done right. If our role isn't to MT because that's the "Defensive" Defensive tanks job... then make sure to put out another raid role for us. You can say that AoE encounters are our ticket, but those encounters are rare and far between now."The situation now is, We have a pure defensive tank that can promenantly Control aggro now, even to degrees of being above other classes who are supposed to have the better aggro control ability.. plus add on DPS to that factor.. and you have a packaged tank with no faults... Compare it to tanks right now that sacced defensive abilities for offensive abilities and control.. and its a no brainer on who is going to be able to tank encounters better... you will go with the one that has dominance in all abilities .. Zerkers are betraying cause they dont have the defenisive abilities of a guard.. and thier offensive is now just the same as a guard .. so literally why sac one portion of tanking for absolutely no aparent reasoning... Sk's are creating alts or just leaveing game, Due to betraying to pally is an opposite playstyle vs guard/bersker.. I bet if they opened it up to where sks can betray to guards or berserkers as well. we would see more sk's just betray out. We have no gains at this point.

Tiberuis

05-07-2008, 04:18 PM

<cite>Kraace@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The 'logic' I guess went over your head. Really don't feel like explaining it again. I'm tanking the same T8 Instances as you with the same kind of players...</blockquote>No, it did not go over my head. The point of this thread and the multitude of other is that give equal equipment, and equal level spells, the SK class is the bottom of the list in tanking and in DPS compared to other fighters. This should not be the case. If the guardian is supposed to be able to take the tremendous beating, then they should not have the DPS. If the SK can't take the beating, then they should have the DPS to make it up. We have neither. The "promise" that every fighter can tank equally effectively, is no longer true.What you haven't told us is are you a raiding SK, that has fabled gear, mythical weapon, etc, playing with the same guild groups in the instance zones. If that is the case, then I challenge you. Change to legendary gear only, no fabled items unless they were obtained by a quest, no epic weapon. Get a pick up group, just send out a call and take the first 2 healers and 3 DPS and go into Maiden's. Then tell me what happens. </blockquote>/agreeSK's do not tank as well as the other plate tank classes.SK's do not dps as well as the other plate tank classes.SK's do not bring anything significant to the table, in terms of raid utility.Therefore, SK's are not balanced to the other plate tank classes. We are 4th in all categories, period. That is the point here, isn't it? We some serious love from the Dev's, or we will just have more and more SK's continue to re-roll, or quit the game. That is the reality.

DMIstar

05-07-2008, 04:19 PM

<cite>Kraace@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>The 'logic' I guess went over your head. Really don't feel like explaining it again. I'm tanking the same T8 Instances as you with the same kind of players...</blockquote>No, it did not go over my head. The point of this thread and the multitude of other is that give equal equipment, and equal level spells, the SK class is the bottom of the list in tanking and in DPS compared to other fighters. This should not be the case. If the guardian is supposed to be able to take the tremendous beating, then they should not have the DPS. If the SK can't take the beating, then they should have the DPS to make it up. We have neither. The "promise" that every fighter can tank equally effectively, is no longer true.What you haven't told us is are you a raiding SK, that has fabled gear, mythical weapon, etc, playing with the same guild groups in the instance zones. If that is the case, then I challenge you. Change to legendary gear only, no fabled items unless they were obtained by a quest, no epic weapon. Get a pick up group, just send out a call and take the first 2 healers and 3 DPS and go into Maiden's. Then tell me what happens. </blockquote>What he is missing is that your not a raiding SK, you have lower INT for and AGI gain spec so you are takeing hits on Threat/DPS numbers in order to keep the healers from complaining that your to hard to keep up.. Meanshile when you get Fabled DPS classes in your pick up groups, They are scaleing beyond the threat Point margin and takeing aggro repeatedly from you during normal runs.. Which then boils down the fabled dpsers complaining that they have to be more restrictive on DPS while you tank. Reasonings for this, is that SoE failed to create a progression table for SK itemization, other then a min and max Set suits .. Min being Crafted, Max being VP class set. Only thing i can say to help you out is, get The dizok set.. Get the two legendary solo items for the head and feet, and work on the rest haveing spell dmg to try to hop gains as possible. I've been drilling out the simple solution to this as best as possible, The Threat point margin that they are beating you at is not that huge.. its just need your threat/DPS scaled more .. right now that is only done via int gains.

Margen

05-07-2008, 07:28 PM

The simple fact is that SK's now are at the bottom of the tanking pile so bad its sick. Should Guardians be able to take the hardest hits, of course. But they either need a major nerf in dps or we have to have a major increase and I mean Major.The idea was that Guardians and paladins would be the defensive tanks, they have numerous agro tools, but would put out horrible dps. Beserkers and SK would take more damage but would keep agro with inpressive dps. Brawlers where also hurting on raids, but in a good group their dps is fairly impressive, plus monks where given a very good raid buff, brusiers need some help also though. But for raid tanking you really can't count them as tanks.As it stands now Guardians are producing some of the best dps in plate tanks, have some of the best agro tools, and take hits great, plus for raiding purposes have good avoidance, really only behind Pallys (not counting Brawlers avoidence since its messed up in the raid scene). So there is no minus to having a Guardian tank vs the numerous minuses for the other plate tanks. There has to be strengths and minuses for each of the 4 tanks, and right now this isnt true. Paladins are IMO the best OT right now with amends and holy ground so its difficult for SK to compete for that role, plus Beserkers and Guardians also have better tools for the OT role then us.So here we sit at the worst HPs, worst in avoidance, major agro issues, and 2nd to last dps. For some reason I think this isnt quite balanced.

Giral

05-08-2008, 12:23 AM

to the SK who speaks as tho Sk's are a 2nd rate tank becuase they are a Hybrid class , you sound like a Guardian. point of fact Shadowknights have MT'd All Raids befor ROK. and Shadowknights are Raid Mt'ing everything in ROK, there might be a Few Names SK's havn't MT'd .....YET! but they will eventualy as stated Numerous times it's YOUR point of view Sk's shouldn't tank equaly but by diffrent methods as a Guardian, but that doesn't make it True . and the Developers Have stated Many times "All tanks will Tank Equaly but by Diffrent Means " no this does not mean we will all Tank herioc zones Equaly and Not raids, again as stated you can use Wizards to tank Herioc instances(yeah in eq and eq2) , you can use Inquistors to tank herioc instances( i know i have done it on my Inquis) , you can use Scouts to Tank herioc instances(and in ROk Scouts are better tanks to use in herioc instances then SK's becuase they can do a Hell of alot more DPS = Way better agro, and mobs die Alot faster ) do we want the Exact same survivabilty as a Guardian , of course not we Aren't Guardians, but we do need a bump up in abilty to absorb Damage from Raid Names. Can Guardians SOLO ? yes actualy they could , i know that Guardians could solo White Heriocs befor ROK, and i know that Zerkers could Solo Yellow heriocs befor ROK, and OMG Sk's also could solo Yellow heriocs, not that big of a differance in soloability, sure the Sk could do it Faster , but Speed in Soloing similar level mobs is Nothing to write home about. Sk's in group content, i have an inquisitor , and i have Healed everything possible thru group zones, you take a Sk 3 levels higher then a guardian, and unless the Sk is well geared/adpt3's.. the guardian is easier to heal in mastercrafted with adpt 1's. so in group content SK is not equal to other tanks unless decently geared. have plenty of trails by fire to know first hand . one such instance is in CMM, went thru with a SK tank decently geared/adpt3's,some masters and had a horrible time trying to keep the sk up, next day went in with a Zerker(guildies ALT) in mastercrafted gear, most adpt1's/some adpt 3's and a couple masters. was able to keep the Zerker up alot easier , zerker lost agro alot less, and we went thru the zone much faster . etc,, etc,, yeah i have very rarely grouped on my Inquis with a very well played SK,that is Very well geared/masterd but on the rare occasion that i have those Sk's are amazing, but should One tank class need to be mostly mastered in Raid gear to be a Terrific group tank ???? and this is just another example that SK's are Behind other tanks becuase our skills and gear are not on equal footing with other tanks . a similarly geared/spell quality level SK should be equal to Any other tank in the same gear/spell quality level , if Sk's were, then when they were full geared they would be equal tanks to any other tanks, but even when Sk's are totaly Raid geared /Mastered they are not equal to Other tanks that are Totaly raid geared/Mastered. Sk's in Raid , dont have the surviability as other tanks, dont have the agro control of other tanks, and dont have the dps of other tanks, so hands down in a raid environment Sk's are last place for MT and OT.... i have MT'd all of t-1 in rok(minus thugga never had the chance) and i Have Mt'd almost all of T-2 in rok , can i see the differance of when i tank compared to a guardian ? very easily, the guardian can Tank Some of the Names with 2 healers and i need 3 and even with 3 i still have a greater chance at dieng even with Bloodletter ! can i see the differance in agro ? guard says INC and befor they even have the mob pulled back and positioned the dps is already spamming away, When I say INC if anyone starts out to early with there Heavy hits its Bye Bye AGRO. in defensive stance trying to take the Heavy hits agro is a major issue, and rescue/DT/DM arent reliable. Utility is the stuff of utility classes , give it to them , give them more buffs to help Sk's Tank im fine with that , a ShadowKnight is a PLATE TANK. that is all they are, they arent a DPS class , they are not a utility class. if you cant Earn a spot in a raid as a MT or an OT then play a Utility class or a DPS class. there is only room for 2 possibly 3 Plate tanks in a raid.... heavy Odd's : ) my kind of challange tho. HYBRID THIS (EDITED) so sick of this Tired excuse of why Sk's should never tank equaly but differantly then other tanks. broken record, beating a dead horse, Glad i never listened to this kind of Horse manure in all my time playing eq2, and to any other SK's out there DONT listen to this Nonsense, You Are A PLATE TANK of the Highest Order. not some Second rate Chump that needs a utility to be given a Charity spot in a raid. Sk's need some minor tweaks to bring them UP to Par, Sk's have always been behind, sk's have always needed to depend on Spell uprgrades and gear upgrades to put them on equal footing with other tanks, it's time for Soe to Bump us up to be equal in master crafted gear with adpt 1's to another tank in mastercrafted adpt 1's, and equal when fully raid geared/mastered to any other tank full fabled/Masterd ... when this day comes there will be NO excuses to never use an SK for any Group or OT or MT ,,, and yes I know there are SK's that are having Issue's getting invited to MT even Group content in ROK and that all comes back down to Shadowknights just arent equal at a Base level with other TANKS.

Pimmy

05-08-2008, 10:34 AM

SKs have lot to be fixed at this moment. All of which is already written on this thread and I hope devs are reading too. To put it short following needs to be fixed/addressed in upcoming GU's: SK DPS, SK avoidance, SK aggro, SK itemization.They need to look at these things from both casual player and hardcore player sides. Me for once dont raid much at all so I'm practically Legendary equipped with some Fabled stuff + some stuff from PR. And I have to say itemization is totally screwed for SKs. And I will not wear mastercrafted junk. I also wear the heroic Epic, Sedition.Our Epic is a good proof that devs are doing the wrong things trying to address basic SK aggro issue. Our epic should not be the key to aggro management, it should be just as great tanking 1hander as guardian version is with SK style.

jagermonsta

05-08-2008, 11:54 AM

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote> to the SK who speaks as tho Sk's are a 2nd rate tank becuase they are a Hybrid class , you sound like a Guardian. I am not a Guardian. I've been a Shadowknight from the time I started playing till now. I believe Shadowknights are a second rate tank when compared to a class that is designed for one thing, to tank. That doesn't make sense? point of fact Shadowknights have MT'd All Raids befor ROK. and Shadowknights are Raid Mt'ing everything in ROK, there might be a Few Names SK's havn't MT'd .....YET! but they will eventualy I never denied Shadowknights were MT for T7 raids nor did I deny that they sometimes were chosen to tank T8 raids. Perhaps you should start reading from the beginning of the thread. I've done nothing but stick up for the Shadowknight class for the most part. as stated Numerous times it's YOUR point of view Sk's shouldn't tank equaly but by diffrent methods as a Guardian, but that doesn't make it True . and the Developers Have stated Many times "All tanks will Tank Equaly but by Diffrent Means " no this does not mean we will all Tank herioc zones Equaly and Not raids, again as stated you can use Wizards to tank Herioc instances(yeah in eq and eq2) , you can use Inquistors to tank herioc instances( i know i have done it on my Inquis) , you can use Scouts to Tank herioc instances(and in ROk Scouts are better tanks to use in herioc instances then SK's becuase they can do a Hell of alot more DPS = Way better agro, and mobs die Alot faster ) The "All tanks will tank equally but by different means." statement is rather vague. I don't see where that statement includes raid content. Your point that other classes such as Wizards and Plate healers really has no baring. Sure it may be possible but what group is actually going to do that? I wish that group the best of luck... do we want the Exact same survivabilty as a Guardian , of course not we Aren't Guardians, but we do need a bump up in abilty to absorb Damage from Raid Names. So you don't think we should tank as good as Guardians but we need a increase in our defense to tank as good as Guardians? What? Can Guardians SOLO ? yes actualy they could , i know that Guardians could solo White Heriocs befor ROK, and i know that Zerkers could Solo Yellow heriocs befor ROK, and OMG Sk's also could solo Yellow heriocs, not that big of a differance in soloability, sure the Sk could do it Faster , but Speed in Soloing similar level mobs is Nothing to write home about. Where did this come from? Shadowknights solo good? You're right. Sk's in group content, i have an inquisitor , and i have Healed everything possible thru group zones, you take a Sk 3 levels higher then a guardian, and unless the Sk is well geared/adpt3's.. the guardian is easier to heal in mastercrafted with adpt 1's. so in group content SK is not equal to other tanks unless decently geared. have plenty of trails by fire to know first hand . one such instance is in CMM, went thru with a SK tank decently geared/adpt3's,some masters and had a horrible time trying to keep the sk up, next day went in with a Zerker(guildies ALT) in mastercrafted gear, most adpt1's/some adpt 3's and a couple masters. was able to keep the Zerker up alot easier , zerker lost agro alot less, and we went thru the zone much faster . etc,, etc,, So basically you had a similar Shadowknight to the point of this thread tanking for your party. A Shadowknight that helps create the idea that Shadowknights are a horrible tank. As I've mentioned I have had no trouble tanking T8 heroic content in parties. Some people here for some reason think I'm was geared in T8 fable and masters... that is not the case. Legendary/Mastercrafted and Adept 3's is enough to get the job done. Equipment and spells anyone is capable of getting. yeah i have very rarely grouped on my Inquis with a very well played SK,that is Very well geared/masterd but on the rare occasion that i have those Sk's are amazing, but should One tank class need to be mostly mastered in Raid gear to be a Terrific group tank ???? and this is just another example that SK's are Behind other tanks becuase our skills and gear are not on equal footing with other tanks . a similarly geared/spell quality level SK should be equal to Any other tank in the same gear/spell quality level , if Sk's were, then when they were full geared they would be equal tanks to any other tanks, but even when Sk's are totaly Raid geared /Mastered they are not equal to Other tanks that are Totaly raid geared/Mastered. Proper equipment selection (Fable/Masters not necessary), AA template and spell cycles. Sk's in Raid , dont have the surviability as other tanks, dont have the agro control of other tanks, and dont have the dps of other tanks, so hands down in a raid environment Sk's are last place for MT and OT.... i have MT'd all of t-1 in rok(minus thugga never had the chance) and i Have Mt'd almost all of T-2 in rok , can i see the differance of when i tank compared to a guardian ? very easily, the guardian can Tank Some of the Names with 2 healers and i need 3 and even with 3 i still have a greater chance at dieng even with Bloodletter ! can i see the differance in agro ? guard says INC and befor they even have the mob pulled back and positioned the dps is already spamming away, When I say INC if anyone starts out to early with there Heavy hits its Bye Bye AGRO. in defensive stance trying to take the Heavy hits agro is a major issue, and rescue/DT/DM arent reliable. Again... this is another plea to make Shadowknights, Guardians. So if a properly geared and skilled Guardian is on a raid and so is the new "fixed" Shadowknight, the Shadowknight now has the choice to MT for the raid? What does the Guardian do? What's his point...? It's just amazing to me how greedy people are. They want to tank like a Guardian AND be a DPS tank at the same time. Utility is the stuff of utility classes , give it to them , give them more buffs to help Sk's Tank im fine with that , a ShadowKnight is a PLATE TANK. that is all they are, they arent a DPS class , they are not a utility class. if you cant Earn a spot in a raid as a MT or an OT then play a Utility class or a DPS class. there is only room for 2 possibly 3 Plate tanks in a raid.... heavy Odd's : ) my kind of challange tho. If this is your description for a Shadowknight why not just reroll as a Guardian? The TRUE PLATE TANK...? Besides last I knew Shadowknights were a tank/dps class. HYBRID THIS (EDITED) so sick of this Tired excuse of why Sk's should never tank equaly but differantly then other tanks. broken record, beating a dead horse, Glad i never listened to this kind of Horse manure in all my time playing eq2, and to any other SK's out there DONT listen to this Nonsense, You Are A PLATE TANK of the Highest Order. not some Second rate Chump that needs a utility to be given a Charity spot in a raid. Yes they are a plate tank but they are a DPS plate tank. They DPS via spells and they tank with some defense abilities/taunts and plate mitigation. That make's them a hybrid class. Two trades but master of none... You're asking for two much. Sk's need some minor tweaks to bring them UP to Par, Sk's have always been behind, sk's have always needed to depend on Spell uprgrades and gear upgrades to put them on equal footing with other tanks, it's time for Soe to Bump us up to be equal in master crafted gear with adpt 1's to another tank in mastercrafted adpt 1's, and equal when fully raid geared/mastered to any other tank full fabled/Masterd ... when this day comes there will be NO excuses to never use an SK for any Group or OT or MT ,,, and yes I know there are SK's that are having Issue's getting invited to MT even Group content in ROK and that all comes back down to Shadowknights just arent equal at a Base level with other TANKS. What it comes down to in reality is the fact you have lazy Shadowknights with Adept 1s and Equipment that gives nothing to the class. They also most likely have some wacked AA template setup and don't know when to taunt or how to taunt without taunts. Shadowknights take time to gear and to learn how to play properly. You're totally looking for a easy mode class to play... Hybrids are not for you. </blockquote>

seamus

05-08-2008, 12:28 PM

<cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote>HYBRID THIS (EDITED) so sick of this Tired excuse of why Sk's should never tank equaly but differantly then other tanks. broken record, beating a dead horse, Glad i never listened to this kind of Horse manure in all my time playing eq2, and to any other SK's out there DONT listen to this Nonsense, You Are A PLATE TANK of the Highest Order. not some Second rate Chump that needs a utility to be given a Charity spot in a raid. Yes they are a plate tank but they are a DPS plate tank. They DPS via spells and they tank with some defense abilities/taunts and plate mitigation. That make's them a hybrid class. Two trades but master of none... You're asking for two much.</blockquote></blockquote>You make several valid points and the reason I made this post is that I don't believe the class is as bad off as many make it. I play three tank classes, including a zerker, yet I still keep coming back to the SK because of the flexibility the class provides. (I do not raid.)However, in today's game Guardians can and do out dps SK's, Paladins and Zerkers. They do especially well on single target encounters, but they can and do out dps the other plate tank classes on multiple-target encounters. This is why so many zerkers are betraying to Guardian. So Guardians, at the moment, have the best of both worlds and get the best Epic to top it off. Two trades and master of both.This brings up another sore point for me, when it comes to heroic instances Swashies and Brigands can tank as well as the SK and yet do more dps and provide some very nice debuffs. /boggle

Tiberuis

05-08-2008, 01:10 PM

<cite>seamus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote> </blockquote>You make several valid points and the reason I made this post is that I don't believe the class is as bad off as many make it. I play three tank classes, including a zerker, yet I still keep coming back to the SK because of the flexibility the class provides. (I do not raid.)However, in today's game Guardians can and do out dps SK's, Paladins and Zerkers. They do especially well on single target encounters, but they can and do out dps the other plate tank classes on multiple-target encounters. This is why so many zerkers are betraying to Guardian. So Guardians, at the moment, have the best of both worlds and get the best Epic to top it off. Two trades and master of both.This brings up another sore point for me, when it comes to heroic instances Swashies and Brigands can tank as well as the SK and yet do more dps and provide some very nice debuffs. /boggle</blockquote>I appreciate that you are not a raider, and you feel the SK is OK for instance zone runs. I tank instance zone runs well myself, but I had to do major equipment and spell upgrades to get me there. But just because a well played, well equipped SK can do the job, does not mean we are balanced vs. the other plate tanks. SK's are not balanced with the other plate tanks, regardless of how much you like your toon or how well you do the job of an instance tank. The other plate tanks, at baseline, are all a lot better than the SK, either at tanking, or dps.If you ever decide you would like to enjoy the challenge of tanking, or dps'ing, or providing utility, against the most challenging content that exists in the game, you will quickly find out that SK's truly are gimped vs. the other plate tank classes.The problem is, even if you decide you want to play EQ2 end-game content, you will probably not get invited. You don't bring anything to the table that the other plate tanks can't do much better than you. And that is not what any of us SK's signed up for.

seamus

05-08-2008, 04:01 PM

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I appreciate that you are not a raider, and you feel the SK is OK for instance zone runs. I tank instance zone runs well myself, but I had to do major equipment and spell upgrades to get me there. But just because a well played, well equipped SK can do the job, does not mean we are balanced vs. the other plate tanks. SK's are not balanced with the other plate tanks, regardless of how much you like your toon or how well you do the job of an instance tank. The other plate tanks, at baseline, are all a lot better than the SK, either at tanking, or dps.If you ever decide you would like to enjoy the challenge of tanking, or dps'ing, or providing utility, against the most challenging content that exists in the game, you will quickly find out that SK's truly are gimped vs. the other plate tank classes.The problem is, even if you decide you want to play EQ2 end-game content, you will probably not get invited. You don't bring anything to the table that the other plate tanks can't do much better than you. And that is not what any of us SK's signed up for.</blockquote>Oh that's fine, that's why I try to make sure its clear I don't raid. I don't know what the issues are for an SK in the raid game other then the fact they have an extremely difficult time getting into a raid guild. Just login an unguilded alt, hit the U key and look at what guilds are recruiting.However, up to 70 I feel the class is fine in group, stellar in duo and amazing solo. I started doing the quests in Kylong Plains at 64, I was killing the level 68/69 mobs just fine. (In MC'd gear using Adept III's and several Masters). Yup I noticed that the non-heroic quest mobs were hitting almost as hard as double arrow heroics I just left behind in EOF. Yup this content will be easier for my Zerker, 62 now, than the EOF content which favors an SK.From my perspective, (not a raider), where the SK is inferior to the warriors is the class' ability to take a hit. (Is spike damage a problem tanking in a raid?) The blessing line and taps don't scale well enough imho. I am starting to see aggro maintenance becoming more difficult in comparison to my Zerker, I can still get the job done but it is getting more difficult compared to my Zerker, its another scaling issue. A pet peeve of mine is itemization, I'd really like to see the gear targeting the SK class provide all the stats and mods we need. I hate the fact we give up so much AGI and get crappy modifiers. On the flip side, gearing up my Zerker is a pleasure. I see giving Devout +45CA/Spell damage on MC'd gear as just a beginning. Looking at the Legenday and Fabled sets in RoK its easy to see why they are disappointing.I guess in order to improve the class' raid viability they could simply beef up Death Touch to take 75 percent of a boss' health (unresistable) for 75 percent of our health, complete heal the raid and increase the raid's mana regen by 100 percent and add a raid buff that gives +200 Double Attack, CA and spell damage. I mean why ask for little tweaks when we can ask for the I WIN button. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /> Seriously though, getting back to the point of my post, it would take an ability like this to overcome the perception of the SK class.

Giral

05-08-2008, 10:20 PM

<cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote>to the SK who speaks as tho Sk's are a 2nd rate tank becuase they are a Hybrid class , you sound like a Guardian.I am not a Guardian. I've been a Shadowknight from the time I started playing till now. I believe Shadowknights are a second rate tank when compared to a class that is designed for one thing, to tank. That doesn't make sense? so what are shadowknights designed for ? oh right a kinda Dps kinda Tank point of fact Shadowknights have MT'd All Raids befor ROK. and Shadowknights are Raid Mt'ing everything in ROK, there might be a Few Names SK's havn't MT'd .....YET! but they will eventualyI never denied Shadowknights were MT for T7 raids nor did I deny that they sometimes were chosen to tank T8 raids. Perhaps you should start reading from the beginning of the thread. I've done nothing but stick up for the Shadowknight class for the most part. been playing since release and Shadowknights have Raid tanked every thing befor dof. every thing in Dof, everything in Kos, and nearly everything in eof(some avators withstanding as im sure Sk's never got the chance to try every one) and are Raid tanking in VP in ROK , thats 98 % of the game Sk's have Raid MT'd for , where in there is an SK not a Raid MT ? 2 % that Sk's most likely didnt get a chance to MT on (avatars). if they already can and have Tanked the same stuff as guardians but its Alot more difficult , and there Both Plate tanks, some Sk's don't view Shadowknight's as Inferior to guardians . just becuase you beloeve Guard is #1 and should be #1 doesn't make it reality . as stated Numerous times it's YOUR point of view Sk's shouldn't tank equaly but by diffrent methods as a Guardian, but that doesn't make it True . and the Developers Have stated Many times "All tanks will Tank Equaly but by Diffrent Means " no this does not mean we will all Tank herioc zones Equaly and Not raids, again as stated you can use Wizards to tank Herioc instances(yeah in eq and eq2) , you can use Inquistors to tank herioc instances( i know i have done it on my Inquis) , you can use Scouts to Tank herioc instances(and in ROk Scouts are better tanks to use in herioc instances then SK's becuase they can do a Hell of alot more DPS = Way better agro, and mobs die Alot faster )The "All tanks will tank equally but by different means." statement is rather vague. I don't see where that statement includes raid content. So all tanks will tank equaly in solo content ?? ther is only Raid and Group content to balance Tanks around. Your point that other classes such as Wizards and Plate healers really has no baring. Sure it may be possible but what group is actually going to do that? I wish that group the best of luck... people who know you can do Instances with nearly any class as an MT, does anyone think you need a Plate tank for instance runs /rofl . possibly a PUG group with 2 healers,some ok dps'rs, and a normal geared plate tank, but anything above that and you dont need a Plate tank.do we want the Exact same survivabilty as a Guardian , of course not we Aren't Guardians, but we do need a bump up in abilty to absorb Damage from Raid Names.So you don't think we should tank as good as Guardians but we need a increase in our defense to tank as good as Guardians? What? i didn't say we shouldnt tank as good, some of us already Tank better then Most guardians ever will, i said Shadowknights need an Increase in ability to Absorb/Slow damage from Raid Names. plenty of threads about this very issue already its not a new concept.Can Guardians SOLO ? yes actualy they could , i know that Guardians could solo White Heriocs befor ROK, and i know that Zerkers could Solo Yellow heriocs befor ROK, and OMG Sk's also could solo Yellow heriocs, not that big of a differance in soloability, sure the Sk could do it Faster , but Speed in Soloing similar level mobs is Nothing to write home about.Where did this come from? Shadowknights solo good? You're right. this comes from Class balance and how Some people compare an Sk's ability to solo as the reason they shouldn't Tank as well but differantly then a guardian, and when you know that Some Guardians and Zerkers are able to Solo mobs equal to an SK that arguement Fails, (this whole Post wasn't directed at YOU, just the opening line) Sk's in group content, i have an inquisitor , and i have Healed everything possible thru group zones, you take a Sk 3 levels higher then a guardian, and unless the Sk is well geared/adpt3's.. the guardian is easier to heal in mastercrafted with adpt 1's. so in group content SK is not equal to other tanks unless decently geared. have plenty of trails by fire to know first hand . one such instance is in CMM, went thru with a SK tank decently geared/adpt3's,some masters and had a horrible time trying to keep the sk up, next day went in with a Zerker(guildies ALT) in mastercrafted gear, most adpt1's/some adpt 3's and a couple masters. was able to keep the Zerker up alot easier , zerker lost agro alot less, and we went thru the zone much faster . etc,, etc,,So basically you had a similar Shadowknight to the point of this thread tanking for your party. A Shadowknight that helps create the idea that Shadowknights are a horrible tank. As I've mentioned I have had no trouble tanking T8 heroic content in parties. Some people here for some reason think I'm was geared in T8 fable and masters... that is not the case. Legendary/Mastercrafted and Adept 3's is enough to get the job done. Equipment and spells anyone is capable of getting. i have had similar Guardians/Zerkers/Paladins/Sk's/Monks, there will always be Bad players of Every class, it's when you can see the differance even in a Bad played Guard Vs a Bad played Sk that the Bad payed guard is Still easier to Heal and keep agro. yeah i have very rarely grouped on my Inquis with a very well played SK,that is Very well geared/masterd but on the rare occasion that i have those Sk's are amazing, but should One tank class need to be mostly mastered in Raid gear to be a Terrific group tank ???? and this is just another example that SK's are Behind other tanks becuase our skills and gear are not on equal footing with other tanks . a similarly geared/spell quality level SK should be equal to Any other tank in the same gear/spell quality level , if Sk's were, then when they were full geared they would be equal tanks to any other tanks, but even when Sk's are totaly Raid geared /Mastered they are not equal to Other tanks that are Totaly raid geared/Mastered.Proper equipment selection (Fable/Masters not necessary), AA template and spell cycles. thanks for clearing that up for me. Sk's in Raid , dont have the surviability as other tanks, dont have the agro control of other tanks, and dont have the dps of other tanks, so hands down in a raid environment Sk's are last place for MT and OT.... i have MT'd all of t-1 in rok(minus thugga never had the chance) and i Have Mt'd almost all of T-2 in rok , can i see the differance of when i tank compared to a guardian ? very easily, the guardian can Tank Some of the Names with 2 healers and i need 3 and even with 3 i still have a greater chance at dieng even with Bloodletter ! can i see the differance in agro ? guard says INC and befor they even have the mob pulled back and positioned the dps is already spamming away, When I say INC if anyone starts out to early with there Heavy hits its Bye Bye AGRO. in defensive stance trying to take the Heavy hits agro is a major issue, and rescue/DT/DM arent reliable.Again... this is another plea to make Shadowknights, Guardians. So if a properly geared and skilled Guardian is on a raid and so is the new "fixed" Shadowknight, the Shadowknight now has the choice to MT for the raid? What does the Guardian do? What's his point...? It's just amazing to me how greedy people are. They want to tank like a Guardian AND be a DPS tank at the same time. i don't Need to Plea for Anything, i DO Raid tank over Gaurdians Already. Greedy NO, i just don't View SK's the way YOU do, a Guardians POINT is that they are a PLate Tank that is ALL , the Name Guardian holds No special Amazement for ME, There Job is the same as Ours , wether They like it or not and wether You like it or Not, and Please How many Raid guilds Will Suddenly Kick there Guardian Out as MT if shadowknights got the Tweaks they Need ????? answer ZERO ... becuase we havent Asked to be Better Tanks then Guardians , we have just Asked for Minor tweaks to be in competition for MT/OT spot, this Does allow Casual Guilds to Use SK's as MT and OT tho if they dont have a Guardian laying around, and this Also allows Guilds to Progress in raiding if the Guardian Cant make some raids , Having 1 MT in Eq2 hold up 23 other people in Raiding is absurd, you should have 4 alternatives to use as MT, the guard would stil have the Edge in survivabilty but not so large a gap that you need a Sk that is even better geared then the Guardian to be able to MT the same Names. Utility is the stuff of utility classes , give it to them , give them more buffs to help Sk's Tank im fine with that , a ShadowKnight is a PLATE TANK. that is all they are, they arent a DPS class , they are not a utility class. if you cant Earn a spot in a raid as a MT or an OT then play a Utility class or a DPS class. there is only room for 2 possibly 3 Plate tanks in a raid.... heavy Odd's : ) my kind of challange tho.If this is your description for a Shadowknight why not just reroll as a Guardian? The TRUE PLATE TANK...? This Is my discription of an SK and i DO MT and OT in raids and OMG OMG im NOT a Guardian. asking for Tools to do my Job better well thats something even Guardians DO. Besides last I knew Shadowknights were a tank/dps class. Check again Guardians are a DPS/Tank class HYBRID THIS (EDITED) so sick of this Tired excuse of why Sk's should never tank equaly but differantly then other tanks. broken record, beating a dead horse, Glad i never listened to this kind of Horse manure in all my time playing eq2, and to any other SK's out there DONT listen to this Nonsense, You Are A PLATE TANK of the Highest Order. not some Second rate Chump that needs a utility to be given a Charity spot in a raid.Yes they are a plate tank but they are a DPS plate tank. They DPS via spells and they tank with some defense abilities/taunts and plate mitigation. That make's them a hybrid class. Two trades but master of none... You're asking for two much. and Guardians Tank using DPS and Melle ,, your point ??? o so Melle attacks makes you Not a Hybrid, so Guardians are like Plate/Scouts then,,, sound's like there a Hybrid to me ; ) . they swing a sword, i cast a spell, so since i cast a spell i should be a [Removed for Content] tank ,, makes no sense, you have a Crusader,a Knight that fights for a Darklord,and who serves a Darkgod. but he is not as good as Ted the Guardian becuase TED is a Guardian and that is why TED is amazingly better becuase he is TED.Sk's need some minor tweaks to bring them UP to Par, Sk's have always been behind, sk's have always needed to depend on Spell uprgrades and gear upgrades to put them on equal footing with other tanks, it's time for Soe to Bump us up to be equal in master crafted gear with adpt 1's to another tank in mastercrafted adpt 1's, and equal when fully raid geared/mastered to any other tank full fabled/Masterd ... when this day comes there will be NO excuses to never use an SK for any Group or OT or MT ,,, and yes I know there are SK's that are having Issue's getting invited to MT even Group content in ROK and that all comes back down to Shadowknights just arent equal at a Base level with other TANKS.What it comes down to in reality is the fact you have lazy Shadowknights with Adept 1s and Equipment that gives nothing to the class. They also most likely have some wacked AA template setup and don't know when to taunt or how to taunt without taunts. what it comes down to is that Guard/zerker/paladin can be lazier,have adpt 1's. and diffrent aa's and out perform an sk in the same state. and a well decent equiped/adpt3 gaurd/paladin/zerker will be easier then a Sk in the same , and a Fabled Guard/Paladin/Zerker will be easier then an Sk in the same. Shadowknights take time to gear and to learn how to play properly. You're totally looking for a easy mode class to play... Hybrids are not for you. Played an SK since release, never stopped, have raided with totaly broken skills at level 45 to 50 (befor dof) have raided thru DOF,thro KOS,thru EOF,and progressing thru ROK, Never been an Officer or Leader in Any raid guild i have been in, and i have been in 5 different raid guild over the years in eq2, nobody asked for Sk's to be an Easy class to play, BUT apparently you think Guardians are easy to Play ??? ( I have a Guardian also BTW : ) all that has been asked for is Tweaks and increases to bring us Back into Competition for our ROLE, i dont Want Utility that gets me a Charity spot in a raid, i dont want equal survivability with a guard i asked for an increase in our's becuase it is Lacking , and increase doesnt mean Equal survivability it just means we need a some, twekas to our aa's/agro/dps to be More Inline with other Tanks . you said so yourself in this sentance SK's take time to GEAR. why wait for an SK to get Gear when you can go with a Guardian right NOW! </blockquote></blockquote>

Tiberuis

05-08-2008, 11:39 PM

The Dev's have ALWAYS stated that the SK class is a Plate Tank...that we are designed to be a TANK...However, it has become an EQ2 game osmosis that most players consider the Guardian and Paladin to be a Defensive Tank, and the Beserker and SK to be DPS tanks...So why, when we want to play the game at the highest level, did the Dev's not scale our class to be balanced with the other plate tanks? And why do they not balance our class out after 6 months from the launch of ROK?I understand the statement "the SK is a Hybrid Tank." OK, fine. Let's follow the logic.If we are truly a hybrid, the Guardian should be a better Defensive Tank than an SK. And the Berzerker should be a better DPS tank than the SK.And being this Hybrid, the SK should DPS slightly better than a Guardian, and be a slightly better Defensive Tank than a Berzerker. Right?Dead wrong.Guardians and Berzerkers, at the baseline level, can both out tank, and out DPS the pants off an SK in end game content. We don't do anything better at the high end of the game.That is not a balanced Hybrid. That is being a gimped class at both ends of the spectrum, a class that is not balanced to the other plate tank classes at all. And a class with no truly advantageous utility at all.And after 6 months of ROK, I am sick of this crap. I do not think you will find many SK's signed up for this at all.

jagermonsta

05-09-2008, 01:37 PM

<cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote>to the SK who speaks as tho Sk's are a 2nd rate tank becuase they are a Hybrid class , you sound like a Guardian.I am not a Guardian. I've been a Shadowknight from the time I started playing till now. I believe Shadowknights are a second rate tank when compared to a class that is designed for one thing, to tank. That doesn't make sense? so what are shadowknights designed for ? oh right a kinda Dps kinda Tank point of fact Shadowknights have MT'd All Raids befor ROK. and Shadowknights are Raid Mt'ing everything in ROK, there might be a Few Names SK's havn't MT'd .....YET! but they will eventualyI never denied Shadowknights were MT for T7 raids nor did I deny that they sometimes were chosen to tank T8 raids. Perhaps you should start reading from the beginning of the thread. I've done nothing but stick up for the Shadowknight class for the most part. been playing since release and Shadowknights have Raid tanked every thing befor dof. every thing in Dof, everything in Kos, and nearly everything in eof(some avators withstanding as im sure Sk's never got the chance to try every one) and are Raid tanking in VP in ROK , thats 98 % of the game Sk's have Raid MT'd for , where in there is an SK not a Raid MT ? 2 % that Sk's most likely didnt get a chance to MT on (avatars). if they already can and have Tanked the same stuff as guardians but its Alot more difficult , and there Both Plate tanks, some Sk's don't view Shadowknight's as Inferior to guardians . just becuase you beloeve Guard is #1 and should be #1 doesn't make it reality . as stated Numerous times it's YOUR point of view Sk's shouldn't tank equaly but by diffrent methods as a Guardian, but that doesn't make it True . and the Developers Have stated Many times "All tanks will Tank Equaly but by Diffrent Means " no this does not mean we will all Tank herioc zones Equaly and Not raids, again as stated you can use Wizards to tank Herioc instances(yeah in eq and eq2) , you can use Inquistors to tank herioc instances( i know i have done it on my Inquis) , you can use Scouts to Tank herioc instances(and in ROk Scouts are better tanks to use in herioc instances then SK's becuase they can do a Hell of alot more DPS = Way better agro, and mobs die Alot faster )The "All tanks will tank equally but by different means." statement is rather vague. I don't see where that statement includes raid content. So all tanks will tank equaly in solo content ?? ther is only Raid and Group content to balance Tanks around. Your point that other classes such as Wizards and Plate healers really has no baring. Sure it may be possible but what group is actually going to do that? I wish that group the best of luck... people who know you can do Instances with nearly any class as an MT, does anyone think you need a Plate tank for instance runs /rofl . possibly a PUG group with 2 healers,some ok dps'rs, and a normal geared plate tank, but anything above that and you dont need a Plate tank.do we want the Exact same survivabilty as a Guardian , of course not we Aren't Guardians, but we do need a bump up in abilty to absorb Damage from Raid Names.So you don't think we should tank as good as Guardians but we need a increase in our defense to tank as good as Guardians? What? i didn't say we shouldnt tank as good, some of us already Tank better then Most guardians ever will, i said Shadowknights need an Increase in ability to Absorb/Slow damage from Raid Names. plenty of threads about this very issue already its not a new concept.Can Guardians SOLO ? yes actualy they could , i know that Guardians could solo White Heriocs befor ROK, and i know that Zerkers could Solo Yellow heriocs befor ROK, and OMG Sk's also could solo Yellow heriocs, not that big of a differance in soloability, sure the Sk could do it Faster , but Speed in Soloing similar level mobs is Nothing to write home about.Where did this come from? Shadowknights solo good? You're right. this comes from Class balance and how Some people compare an Sk's ability to solo as the reason they shouldn't Tank as well but differantly then a guardian, and when you know that Some Guardians and Zerkers are able to Solo mobs equal to an SK that arguement Fails, (this whole Post wasn't directed at YOU, just the opening line) Sk's in group content, i have an inquisitor , and i have Healed everything possible thru group zones, you take a Sk 3 levels higher then a guardian, and unless the Sk is well geared/adpt3's.. the guardian is easier to heal in mastercrafted with adpt 1's. so in group content SK is not equal to other tanks unless decently geared. have plenty of trails by fire to know first hand . one such instance is in CMM, went thru with a SK tank decently geared/adpt3's,some masters and had a horrible time trying to keep the sk up, next day went in with a Zerker(guildies ALT) in mastercrafted gear, most adpt1's/some adpt 3's and a couple masters. was able to keep the Zerker up alot easier , zerker lost agro alot less, and we went thru the zone much faster . etc,, etc,,So basically you had a similar Shadowknight to the point of this thread tanking for your party. A Shadowknight that helps create the idea that Shadowknights are a horrible tank. As I've mentioned I have had no trouble tanking T8 heroic content in parties. Some people here for some reason think I'm was geared in T8 fable and masters... that is not the case. Legendary/Mastercrafted and Adept 3's is enough to get the job done. Equipment and spells anyone is capable of getting. i have had similar Guardians/Zerkers/Paladins/Sk's/Monks, there will always be Bad players of Every class, it's when you can see the differance even in a Bad played Guard Vs a Bad played Sk that the Bad payed guard is Still easier to Heal and keep agro. yeah i have very rarely grouped on my Inquis with a very well played SK,that is Very well geared/masterd but on the rare occasion that i have those Sk's are amazing, but should One tank class need to be mostly mastered in Raid gear to be a Terrific group tank ???? and this is just another example that SK's are Behind other tanks becuase our skills and gear are not on equal footing with other tanks . a similarly geared/spell quality level SK should be equal to Any other tank in the same gear/spell quality level , if Sk's were, then when they were full geared they would be equal tanks to any other tanks, but even when Sk's are totaly Raid geared /Mastered they are not equal to Other tanks that are Totaly raid geared/Mastered.Proper equipment selection (Fable/Masters not necessary), AA template and spell cycles. thanks for clearing that up for me. Sk's in Raid , dont have the surviability as other tanks, dont have the agro control of other tanks, and dont have the dps of other tanks, so hands down in a raid environment Sk's are last place for MT and OT.... i have MT'd all of t-1 in rok(minus thugga never had the chance) and i Have Mt'd almost all of T-2 in rok , can i see the differance of when i tank compared to a guardian ? very easily, the guardian can Tank Some of the Names with 2 healers and i need 3 and even with 3 i still have a greater chance at dieng even with Bloodletter ! can i see the differance in agro ? guard says INC and befor they even have the mob pulled back and positioned the dps is already spamming away, When I say INC if anyone starts out to early with there Heavy hits its Bye Bye AGRO. in defensive stance trying to take the Heavy hits agro is a major issue, and rescue/DT/DM arent reliable.Again... this is another plea to make Shadowknights, Guardians. So if a properly geared and skilled Guardian is on a raid and so is the new "fixed" Shadowknight, the Shadowknight now has the choice to MT for the raid? What does the Guardian do? What's his point...? It's just amazing to me how greedy people are. They want to tank like a Guardian AND be a DPS tank at the same time. i don't Need to Plea for Anything, i DO Raid tank over Gaurdians Already. Greedy NO, i just don't View SK's the way YOU do, a Guardians POINT is that they are a PLate Tank that is ALL , the Name Guardian holds No special Amazement for ME, There Job is the same as Ours , wether They like it or not and wether You like it or Not, and Please How many Raid guilds Will Suddenly Kick there Guardian Out as MT if shadowknights got the Tweaks they Need ????? answer ZERO ... becuase we havent Asked to be Better Tanks then Guardians , we have just Asked for Minor tweaks to be in competition for MT/OT spot, this Does allow Casual Guilds to Use SK's as MT and OT tho if they dont have a Guardian laying around, and this Also allows Guilds to Progress in raiding if the Guardian Cant make some raids , Having 1 MT in Eq2 hold up 23 other people in Raiding is absurd, you should have 4 alternatives to use as MT, the guard would stil have the Edge in survivabilty but not so large a gap that you need a Sk that is even better geared then the Guardian to be able to MT the same Names. Utility is the stuff of utility classes , give it to them , give them more buffs to help Sk's Tank im fine with that , a ShadowKnight is a PLATE TANK. that is all they are, they arent a DPS class , they are not a utility class. if you cant Earn a spot in a raid as a MT or an OT then play a Utility class or a DPS class. there is only room for 2 possibly 3 Plate tanks in a raid.... heavy Odd's : ) my kind of challange tho.If this is your description for a Shadowknight why not just reroll as a Guardian? The TRUE PLATE TANK...? This Is my discription of an SK and i DO MT and OT in raids and OMG OMG im NOT a Guardian. asking for Tools to do my Job better well thats something even Guardians DO. Besides last I knew Shadowknights were a tank/dps class. Check again Guardians are a DPS/Tank class HYBRID THIS (EDITED) so sick of this Tired excuse of why Sk's should never tank equaly but differantly then other tanks. broken record, beating a dead horse, Glad i never listened to this kind of Horse manure in all my time playing eq2, and to any other SK's out there DONT listen to this Nonsense, You Are A PLATE TANK of the Highest Order. not some Second rate Chump that needs a utility to be given a Charity spot in a raid.Yes they are a plate tank but they are a DPS plate tank. They DPS via spells and they tank with some defense abilities/taunts and plate mitigation. That make's them a hybrid class. Two trades but master of none... You're asking for two much. and Guardians Tank using DPS and Melle ,, your point ??? o so Melle attacks makes you Not a Hybrid, so Guardians are like Plate/Scouts then,,, sound's like there a Hybrid to me ; ) . they swing a sword, i cast a spell, so since i cast a spell i should be a [Removed for Content] tank ,, makes no sense, you have a Crusader,a Knight that fights for a Darklord,and who serves a Darkgod. but he is not as good as Ted the Guardian becuase TED is a Guardian and that is why TED is amazingly better becuase he is TED.Sk's need some minor tweaks to bring them UP to Par, Sk's have always been behind, sk's have always needed to depend on Spell uprgrades and gear upgrades to put them on equal footing with other tanks, it's time for Soe to Bump us up to be equal in master crafted gear with adpt 1's to another tank in mastercrafted adpt 1's, and equal when fully raid geared/mastered to any other tank full fabled/Masterd ... when this day comes there will be NO excuses to never use an SK for any Group or OT or MT ,,, and yes I know there are SK's that are having Issue's getting invited to MT even Group content in ROK and that all comes back down to Shadowknights just arent equal at a Base level with other TANKS.What it comes down to in reality is the fact you have lazy Shadowknights with Adept 1s and Equipment that gives nothing to the class. They also most likely have some wacked AA template setup and don't know when to taunt or how to taunt without taunts. what it comes down to is that Guard/zerker/paladin can be lazier,have adpt 1's. and diffrent aa's and out perform an sk in the same state. and a well decent equiped/adpt3 gaurd/paladin/zerker will be easier then a Sk in the same , and a Fabled Guard/Paladin/Zerker will be easier then an Sk in the same. Shadowknights take time to gear and to learn how to play properly. You're totally looking for a easy mode class to play... Hybrids are not for you. Played an SK since release, never stopped, have raided with totaly broken skills at level 45 to 50 (befor dof) have raided thru DOF,thro KOS,thru EOF,and progressing thru ROK, Never been an Officer or Leader in Any raid guild i have been in, and i have been in 5 different raid guild over the years in eq2, nobody asked for Sk's to be an Easy class to play, BUT apparently you think Guardians are easy to Play ??? ( I have a Guardian also BTW : ) all that has been asked for is Tweaks and increases to bring us Back into Competition for our ROLE, i dont Want Utility that gets me a Charity spot in a raid, i dont want equal survivability with a guard i asked for an increase in our's becuase it is Lacking , and increase doesnt mean Equal survivability it just means we need a some, twekas to our aa's/agro/dps to be More Inline with other Tanks . you said so yourself in this sentance SK's take time to GEAR. why wait for an SK to get Gear when you can go with a Guardian right NOW! </blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>Very difficult to read your replies. Perhaps you could edit it?For what I was able to read... It's hard for me to believe you've been playing EQ2 since day one since you seem to have a slight ignorance of basic areas of the game or perhaps you never picked up on them? I don't know... but not knowing what a hybrid class is when you play one? Hmmm...If you could rewrite your post in a readable manor I will happily continue to refute your statements.In the meantime keep in mind I don't believe the Shadowknight class is perfect. There are areas that should be looked into but pleading to have the class made into some kind of "super" class that will completely unbalance the game isn't what I'm looking for.

Nacho Cheese

05-09-2008, 02:14 PM

<cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ranadin@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Giralus wrote:</cite><blockquote>to the SK who speaks as tho Sk's are a 2nd rate tank becuase they are a Hybrid class , you sound like a Guardian.I am not a Guardian. I've been a Shadowknight from the time I started playing till now. I believe Shadowknights are a second rate tank when compared to a class that is designed for one thing, to tank. That doesn't make sense? so what are shadowknights designed for ? oh right a kinda Dps kinda Tank point of fact Shadowknights have MT'd All Raids befor ROK. and Shadowknights are Raid Mt'ing everything in ROK, there might be a Few Names SK's havn't MT'd .....YET! but they will eventualyI never denied Shadowknights were MT for T7 raids nor did I deny that they sometimes were chosen to tank T8 raids. Perhaps you should start reading from the beginning of the thread. I've done nothing but stick up for the Shadowknight class for the most part. been playing since release and Shadowknights have Raid tanked every thing befor dof. every thing in Dof, everything in Kos, and nearly everything in eof(some avators withstanding as im sure Sk's never got the chance to try every one) and are Raid tanking in VP in ROK , thats 98 % of the game Sk's have Raid MT'd for , where in there is an SK not a Raid MT ? 2 % that Sk's most likely didnt get a chance to MT on (avatars). if they already can and have Tanked the same stuff as guardians but its Alot more difficult , and there Both Plate tanks, some Sk's don't view Shadowknight's as Inferior to guardians . just becuase you beloeve Guard is #1 and should be #1 doesn't make it reality . as stated Numerous times it's YOUR point of view Sk's shouldn't tank equaly but by diffrent methods as a Guardian, but that doesn't make it True . and the Developers Have stated Many times "All tanks will Tank Equaly but by Diffrent Means " no this does not mean we will all Tank herioc zones Equaly and Not raids, again as stated you can use Wizards to tank Herioc instances(yeah in eq and eq2) , you can use Inquistors to tank herioc instances( i know i have done it on my Inquis) , you can use Scouts to Tank herioc instances(and in ROk Scouts are better tanks to use in herioc instances then SK's becuase they can do a Hell of alot more DPS = Way better agro, and mobs die Alot faster )The "All tanks will tank equally but by different means." statement is rather vague. I don't see where that statement includes raid content. So all tanks will tank equaly in solo content ?? ther is only Raid and Group content to balance Tanks around. Your point that other classes such as Wizards and Plate healers really has no baring. Sure it may be possible but what group is actually going to do that? I wish that group the best of luck... people who know you can do Instances with nearly any class as an MT, does anyone think you need a Plate tank for instance runs /rofl . possibly a PUG group with 2 healers,some ok dps'rs, and a normal geared plate tank, but anything above that and you dont need a Plate tank.do we want the Exact same survivabilty as a Guardian , of course not we Aren't Guardians, but we do need a bump up in abilty to absorb Damage from Raid Names.So you don't think we should tank as good as Guardians but we need a increase in our defense to tank as good as Guardians? What? i didn't say we shouldnt tank as good, some of us already Tank better then Most guardians ever will, i said Shadowknights need an Increase in ability to Absorb/Slow damage from Raid Names. plenty of threads about this very issue already its not a new concept.Can Guardians SOLO ? yes actualy they could , i know that Guardians could solo White Heriocs befor ROK, and i know that Zerkers could Solo Yellow heriocs befor ROK, and OMG Sk's also could solo Yellow heriocs, not that big of a differance in soloability, sure the Sk could do it Faster , but Speed in Soloing similar level mobs is Nothing to write home about.Where did this come from? Shadowknights solo good? You're right. this comes from Class balance and how Some people compare an Sk's ability to solo as the reason they shouldn't Tank as well but differantly then a guardian, and when you know that Some Guardians and Zerkers are able to Solo mobs equal to an SK that arguement Fails, (this whole Post wasn't directed at YOU, just the opening line) Sk's in group content, i have an inquisitor , and i have Healed everything possible thru group zones, you take a Sk 3 levels higher then a guardian, and unless the Sk is well geared/adpt3's.. the guardian is easier to heal in mastercrafted with adpt 1's. so in group content SK is not equal to other tanks unless decently geared. have plenty of trails by fire to know first hand . one such instance is in CMM, went thru with a SK tank decently geared/adpt3's,some masters and had a horrible time trying to keep the sk up, next day went in with a Zerker(guildies ALT) in mastercrafted gear, most adpt1's/some adpt 3's and a couple masters. was able to keep the Zerker up alot easier , zerker lost agro alot less, and we went thru the zone much faster . etc,, etc,,So basically you had a similar Shadowknight to the point of this thread tanking for your party. A Shadowknight that helps create the idea that Shadowknights are a horrible tank. As I've mentioned I have had no trouble tanking T8 heroic content in parties. Some people here for some reason think I'm was geared in T8 fable and masters... that is not the case. Legendary/Mastercrafted and Adept 3's is enough to get the job done. Equipment and spells anyone is capable of getting. i have had similar Guardians/Zerkers/Paladins/Sk's/Monks, there will always be Bad players of Every class, it's when you can see the differance even in a Bad played Guard Vs a Bad played Sk that the Bad payed guard is Still easier to Heal and keep agro. yeah i have very rarely grouped on my Inquis with a very well played SK,that is Very well geared/masterd but on the rare occasion that i have those Sk's are amazing, but should One tank class need to be mostly mastered in Raid gear to be a Terrific group tank ???? and this is just another example that SK's are Behind other tanks becuase our skills and gear are not on equal footing with other tanks . a similarly geared/spell quality level SK should be equal to Any other tank in the same gear/spell quality level , if Sk's were, then when they were full geared they would be equal tanks to any other tanks, but even when Sk's are totaly Raid geared /Mastered they are not equal to Other tanks that are Totaly raid geared/Mastered.Proper equipment selection (Fable/Masters not necessary), AA template and spell cycles. thanks for clearing that up for me. Sk's in Raid , dont have the surviability as other tanks, dont have the agro control of other tanks, and dont have the dps of other tanks, so hands down in a raid environment Sk's are last place for MT and OT.... i have MT'd all of t-1 in rok(minus thugga never had the chance) and i Have Mt'd almost all of T-2 in rok , can i see the differance of when i tank compared to a guardian ? very easily, the guardian can Tank Some of the Names with 2 healers and i need 3 and even with 3 i still have a greater chance at dieng even with Bloodletter ! can i see the differance in agro ? guard says INC and befor they even have the mob pulled back and positioned the dps is already spamming away, When I say INC if anyone starts out to early with there Heavy hits its Bye Bye AGRO. in defensive stance trying to take the Heavy hits agro is a major issue, and rescue/DT/DM arent reliable.Again... this is another plea to make Shadowknights, Guardians. So if a properly geared and skilled Guardian is on a raid and so is the new "fixed" Shadowknight, the Shadowknight now has the choice to MT for the raid? What does the Guardian do? What's his point...? It's just amazing to me how greedy people are. They want to tank like a Guardian AND be a DPS tank at the same time. i don't Need to Plea for Anything, i DO Raid tank over Gaurdians Already. Greedy NO, i just don't View SK's the way YOU do, a Guardians POINT is that they are a PLate Tank that is ALL , the Name Guardian holds No special Amazement for ME, There Job is the same as Ours , wether They like it or not and wether You like it or Not, and Please How many Raid guilds Will Suddenly Kick there Guardian Out as MT if shadowknights got the Tweaks they Need ????? answer ZERO ... becuase we havent Asked to be Better Tanks then Guardians , we have just Asked for Minor tweaks to be in competition for MT/OT spot, this Does allow Casual Guilds to Use SK's as MT and OT tho if they dont have a Guardian laying around, and this Also allows Guilds to Progress in raiding if the Guardian Cant make some raids , Having 1 MT in Eq2 hold up 23 other people in Raiding is absurd, you should have 4 alternatives to use as MT, the guard would stil have the Edge in survivabilty but not so large a gap that you need a Sk that is even better geared then the Guardian to be able to MT the same Names. Utility is the stuff of utility classes , give it to them , give them more buffs to help Sk's Tank im fine with that , a ShadowKnight is a PLATE TANK. that is all they are, they arent a DPS class , they are not a utility class. if you cant Earn a spot in a raid as a MT or an OT then play a Utility class or a DPS class. there is only room for 2 possibly 3 Plate tanks in a raid.... heavy Odd's : ) my kind of challange tho.If this is your description for a Shadowknight why not just reroll as a Guardian? The TRUE PLATE TANK...? This Is my discription of an SK and i DO MT and OT in raids and OMG OMG im NOT a Guardian. asking for Tools to do my Job better well thats something even Guardians DO. Besides last I knew Shadowknights were a tank/dps class. Check again Guardians are a DPS/Tank class HYBRID THIS (EDITED) so sick of this Tired excuse of why Sk's should never tank equaly but differantly then other tanks. broken record, beating a dead horse, Glad i never listened to this kind of Horse manure in all my time playing eq2, and to any other SK's out there DONT listen to this Nonsense, You Are A PLATE TANK of the Highest Order. not some Second rate Chump that needs a utility to be given a Charity spot in a raid.Yes they are a plate tank but they are a DPS plate tank. They DPS via spells and they tank with some defense abilities/taunts and plate mitigation. That make's them a hybrid class. Two trades but master of none... You're asking for two much. and Guardians Tank using DPS and Melle ,, your point ??? o so Melle attacks makes you Not a Hybrid, so Guardians are like Plate/Scouts then,,, sound's like there a Hybrid to me ; ) . they swing a sword, i cast a spell, so since i cast a spell i should be a [Removed for Content] tank ,, makes no sense, you have a Crusader,a Knight that fights for a Darklord,and who serves a Darkgod. but he is not as good as Ted the Guardian becuase TED is a Guardian and that is why TED is amazingly better becuase he is TED.Sk's need some minor tweaks to bring them UP to Par, Sk's have always been behind, sk's have always needed to depend on Spell uprgrades and gear upgrades to put them on equal footing with other tanks, it's time for Soe to Bump us up to be equal in master crafted gear with adpt 1's to another tank in mastercrafted adpt 1's, and equal when fully raid geared/mastered to any other tank full fabled/Masterd ... when this day comes there will be NO excuses to never use an SK for any Group or OT or MT ,,, and yes I know there are SK's that are having Issue's getting invited to MT even Group content in ROK and that all comes back down to Shadowknights just arent equal at a Base level with other TANKS.What it comes down to in reality is the fact you have lazy Shadowknights with Adept 1s and Equipment that gives nothing to the class. They also most likely have some wacked AA template setup and don't know when to taunt or how to taunt without taunts. what it comes down to is that Guard/zerker/paladin can be lazier,have adpt 1's. and diffrent aa's and out perform an sk in the same state. and a well decent equiped/adpt3 gaurd/paladin/zerker will be easier then a Sk in the same , and a Fabled Guard/Paladin/Zerker will be easier then an Sk in the same. Shadowknights take time to gear and to learn how to play properly. You're totally looking for a easy mode class to play... Hybrids are not for you. Played an SK since release, never stopped, have raided with totaly broken skills at level 45 to 50 (befor dof) have raided thru DOF,thro KOS,thru EOF,and progressing thru ROK, Never been an Officer or Leader in Any raid guild i have been in, and i have been in 5 different raid guild over the years in eq2, nobody asked for Sk's to be an Easy class to play, BUT apparently you think Guardians are easy to Play ??? ( I have a Guardian also BTW : ) all that has been asked for is Tweaks and increases to bring us Back into Competition for our ROLE, i dont Want Utility that gets me a Charity spot in a raid, i dont want equal survivability with a guard i asked for an increase in our's becuase it is Lacking , and increase doesnt mean Equal survivability it just means we need a some, twekas to our aa's/agro/dps to be More Inline with other Tanks . you said so yourself in this sentance SK's take time to GEAR. why wait for an SK to get Gear when you can go with a Guardian right NOW! </blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>Very difficult to read your replies. Perhaps you could edit it?For what I was able to read... It's hard for me to believe you've been playing EQ2 since day one since you seem to have a slight ignorance of basic areas of the game or perhaps you never picked up on them? I don't know... but not knowing what a hybrid class is when you play one? Hmmm...If you could rewrite your post in a readable manor I will happily continue to refute your statements.In the meantime keep in mind I don't believe the Shadowknight class is perfect. There are areas that should be looked into but pleading to have the class made into some kind of "super" class that will completely unbalance the game isn't what I'm looking for.</blockquote>Ranadin, I too, play on AB. I know you, and I know many people in your guild. You are subpar at best. You are not hardcore. You don't even know what that means. We are not asking that SK's be made a "super" class. Only that we will be allowed to compete, and actually be effective in the end game. You don't even know what that means, because you are not and your guild is not doing the end game and you and your guild will always be subpar. You are happy with just being a "not so good" player and not being very effective at anything you do. Your reputation sucks on AB. Please get a clue before you start posting on things you know nothing about.

Darkc

05-09-2008, 02:36 PM

Last time I checked this isn't EQ2Flames Nacho. There are players here from all different play levels and from what I've seen VP / Avatar Itemization is sick for SKs... I'd say the ones suffering the most are the ones in T1 - T3 raiding guilds, that will never have the chance get the available gear that evens out the playing field a bit more. Right now you're forced to gear up to like a Warrior if you want to have any chance at tanking, since most of the tanking gear lacks Crusader friendly stats on top of our Class set being extremely lackluster.

Konahito

05-09-2008, 03:32 PM

Let's keep the personal attacks and comments out of the discussion folks. This isn't ForumPvP and comments like that aren't needed. Remember, debate the topic not the poster. Thanks!

Tiberuis

05-09-2008, 05:41 PM

I am in the T1 to T3 raiding guild category. And I totally /agree with DarkC.Itemization up to and including this level for SK's is junk. Our Fabled Demonguard set does not bring us even close to the raid tanking and raid DPS capability of the other plate tank classes - even when they are only wearing Ledgendary gear.All things being equal, SK's are not currently balanced to the other plate tank classes, and have been badly behind the others in tanking and DPS capability since ROK launched. There is no point in debating this, the evidence is very, very clear, demonstrated and discussed in hundreds of posts on these forums.The only thing at issue here is whether or not the Dev's are listening, and whether or not they actually care about our class imbalance enough to do something about it.Tears and Frustrations indeed.

ProteusTielaxi

05-11-2008, 01:33 AM

DPS plate tank?Well..lets see how things are SUPPOSED to work in the grand scheme of things, until they got completely screwed. The archtypes are SUPPOSED to go, in DPS order:Mage, Scout, Tank, Priest.From there, under the tank catagory, we should see:Bruiser, Monk, SK, Pally, Zerker, Guardian. Guardians should have some of THE lowest DPS in the game...that got "fixed" about 20 LU ago, and they've been overpowered, along with zerkers ever since. Now, they outdps some mages, due to itemization. Its pretty sad hearing about "tank mages". There should NOT be such a thing in this game. SK's get superb solo ability and survivability for 79 levels of the game..they should not expect to DPS like mages at level 80 simply because they want to raid. That being said, a good SK can tank almost any raid in this game. They do a superb job off-tanking. Just because a few l33t minmax guilds decide they want the absolute perfect setup doesn't mean the entire game needs to be rebalanced to accomodate.JMHO

Margen

05-11-2008, 10:51 AM

No one is asking to outdps wizards, but we should be kicking the snot out of Guardians, in either offensive or defensive ... They have the survival tools we lack, plus have many more agro tools. Right now they own us in survival, dps, and agro. So that just leaves utility, well our utility is pretty weak.As for great soloing ability, upto 70 we solo great, after 70 we go to the middle of the pack, due to ROk mobs hitting alot harder then previous expansions and havng alot more hps. Wizards are ahead of us in soloing at this time, and they have no problem getting in raids. Besides saying our so called soloing ability should be considered our offset for raiding is wrong since numerous great soloing classes have some very good raid abilities.As for SK tanking, yeah, we can do it, plus we can fill the OT role also, but here is the problem, all three other tank classes do it better then we do. No one is going to use us for the MT role if they have a competent Guardian, their is nothing we shine at in tannking. So that leaves us in the dps department, since our utility is poor, and we are lacking in that department compared to other fighters in this expansion.We should own Guardians and Paladins in dps, but we are just a head of paladins and way behind Guardians. We should be just a head of Beserkers (since they have better tanking tools), and just behind brawlers. Being considered as the 4th best raid tank and the 5th best dps tank is not balanced IMO.

Tiberuis

05-11-2008, 04:54 PM

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Tiberuis

05-11-2008, 05:07 PM

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Tiberuis

05-11-2008, 05:07 PM

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Tiberuis

05-11-2008, 05:07 PM

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Tiberuis

05-11-2008, 05:07 PM

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Tiberuis

05-11-2008, 05:07 PM

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Tiberuis

05-11-2008, 05:07 PM

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Tiberuis

05-11-2008, 05:07 PM

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Tiberuis

05-11-2008, 05:07 PM

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Tiberuis

05-11-2008, 05:09 PM

<cite>ProteusTielaxi wrote</cite> <blockquote>That being said, a good SK can tank almost any raid in this game. They do a superb job off-tanking. Just because a few l33t minmax guilds decide they want the absolute perfect setup doesn't mean the entire game needs to be rebalanced to accomodate.JMHO</blockquote>I don't want the entire game rebalanced. I just want the plate tanks balanced. The SK does not Tank or DPS as well as the other plate tank classes. Regardless of how happy anyone is with thier SK, the simple fact remains that the SK is NOT balanced with the other plate tank classes. This is not an opinon, it is a clear fact. It just becomes more painfully obvious with end-game content.I did not sign up for my class to be 4th amounst plate tank classes due to the class design. It is not fair or balanced. Our class pales in comparison to the Guardian class, in particular. We cannot Tank or DPS even close to that class at end game. Is that balanced? I think not. It is not even close.

Tiberuis

05-11-2008, 05:10 PM

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Tiberuis

05-11-2008, 05:13 PM

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Tiberuis

05-11-2008, 05:15 PM

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DMIstar

05-11-2008, 11:09 PM

<cite>ProteusTielaxi wrote:</cite><blockquote>DPS plate tank?Well..lets see how things are SUPPOSED to work in the grand scheme of things, until they got completely screwed. The archtypes are SUPPOSED to go, in DPS order:Mage, Scout, Tank, Priest.From there, under the tank catagory, we should see:Bruiser, Monk, SK, Pally, Zerker, Guardian. Guardians should have some of THE lowest DPS in the game...that got "fixed" about 20 LU ago, and they've been overpowered, along with zerkers ever since. Now, they outdps some mages, due to itemization. Its pretty sad hearing about "tank mages". There should NOT be such a thing in this game. SK's get superb solo ability and survivability for 79 levels of the game..they should not expect to DPS like mages at level 80 simply because they want to raid. That being said, a good SK can tank almost any raid in this game. They do a superb job off-tanking. Just because a few l33t minmax guilds decide they want the absolute perfect setup doesn't mean the entire game needs to be rebalanced to accomodate.JMHO</blockquote>Theres a mix up here in the DPS order... it GoesMonk/BruiserSK/ZerkerPally/Guard... We are vying for our place back, Plus our itemization sucks and no longer should be an ignored factor... Itemization on this class is very important and something not to overlook. "SK's get superb solo ability and survivability for 79 levels of the game"All this ever meant to me, is that on solo/heoric style mobs... DPS is king... When it comes to actually tanking a mob for any length of time we are screwed... The major differences between Solo/Heoric/Epic is two things ... Hit Points, and Damage output.. Everything else Mitigation, Resists.. is there to scale the mobs overall duration time. Which inevidably means more Hit points... We do good solo, cause we can set burn in pretty fast..... What kills me is, If the guards take off most defensive side and Go for offensive side, they will be doing the same thing... Just alot of them use the same gear.. Where as SK's normally sport two sets nowadays due to this mess ;/.. Heorics, Same thing with 5 other people, this is why monks and bruisers shouldn't have a problem either.. Which they arent as much, Ive seen them tank Vaults and CoA... its all on Burst DPS.. My shortest run in CoA is about 30mins now a run. It boils down to low tank time overall.. The longer we tank it, the more problems we have.. hence raids.

jagermonsta

05-12-2008, 11:40 AM

<cite>Nacho Cheese wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Ranadin, I too, play on AB. I know you, and I know many people in your guild. You are subpar at best. You are not hardcore. You don't even know what that means. We are not asking that SK's be made a "super" class. Only that we will be allowed to compete, and actually be effective in the end game. You don't even know what that means, because you are not and your guild is not doing the end game and you and your guild will always be subpar. You are happy with just being a "not so good" player and not being very effective at anything you do. Your reputation sucks on AB. Please get a clue before you start posting on things you know nothing about.</blockquote>Ahhh. Here we go... Some keyboard warrior hiding behind an alias. Wonderful. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I understand you're frustrated that you lack sufficient talent to be competitive but don't take it out on me. It's obvious you do not know me. I never claimed to be some kind of end game god nor my guild and if you have read most of my replies you would know I already implied that. I am a casual EQ2 player and so is my guild so please understand. The personal attacks you made are rather amusing to me. I'm a 'not so good' player? Interesting... I've been nothing but complemented for what I bring to the table as a MT. My reputation sucks? Sir I don't even have a reputation for the most part. I'm a casual player... as if I'm in the public eye enough to make or break a reputation. For the time I've spent online and the people I have met/played with I've always made a point to leave a respectful & mature impression in game. You clearly have some kind of personal issues I suggest you work out with yourself.

Mr. Dawki

05-12-2008, 04:03 PM

Tiberuis

05-12-2008, 05:54 PM

ROFLAny room on that street corner for an Ogre to join you?<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />