The Gleaming Strike and Smoldering Blessing needs to be looked at among other things. [Archive]

Youngone31

05-05-2008, 05:56 PM

I have tested the new weapons on the test server for several days and have concluded that the agro effect on the Gleaming Strike and the Smoldering Blessing effect should be removed. The strike has some uses but the blessing is pretty much worthless. When I tested these weapons, I had to use a pet. I see maybe one or two other people on the test copy server each day so it hard to make a group for testing purposes.When I tested both the Strike and Blessing weapons, I was using a Shamshir and was hitting for an average of 125 pet hit. My pet was hitting for around 900 so it can easily keep agro. I went to JW and fought Stoneglints to test these weapons. The Strike from the Shamshir would trigger two or three times per target. Standing beside my pet, facing the target I was able to steal agro from my pet every time. This was without casting any spells that would give me additional agro. At first glance, I could not tell if the weapon was working until the target turned on me because the Strike did not have any type of animation. The old Strike and the Blessing have a lightning strike effect letting you know that the weapon triggered. The Strike was hitting for an average of 460 per proc. When I lowered the targets magic resistance, the effect was hitting for 780. I had to cast several deagros so that the target would stop attacking me. When I had my pet tanking and I was standing behind the target, I was able to cast spells without reservation. I was able to use EV a few times and the target did not turn to attack me. The only bad thing I noticed about the Strike weapon is that the description reads that the Strike effect should hit for 622-1155 but I could hit over 500 unless I lowered the targets MR.The Smoldering Blessing weapon is a bad joke waiting to happen. The weapon is suppose to trigger 1.8 times a minute and add 120 to each spell cast in the 12 seconds of the effect going off. I swear that it would take 25-35 spells before the weapon would trigger. Everything else I had on me (armor and jewelry, would trigger multiple times before my blessing weapon would. I was hopping target to target trying to trigger this weapon. It would trigger 1 in 3 targets and then if I was extremely lucky, I could cast 4-5 spells before the effect wore off. Basically if I was lucky, I do an extra 480-600 to heals or damage with the blessing which does not even compare to the 622-1155 the strike is able to do. My single target spells (heals and nukes) had to be refreshed when the effect triggered or I could not take advantage of the Blessing buff. I stated before that I was fighting Stoneglints in JW. There were a few times when the weapon triggered, the target would knock me down while the buff was active. Needless to say, the buff would wear off before I could recover from being downed making this weapon virtually useless while soloing. While I did not have any problem with the Strike weapon soloing, what I am worried about is this weapon being used in groups. Many people stated before that the tank does not always flip the mob so that its back is to the group. Most of the group I been in, the melee dps starts attacking from the front then move behind the target. I had the effect on this weapon trigger on the first hit a few times. If the weapons triggers while the dps is in front of the target, they could steal agro from the tank. I been in too many groups when the dps gets agro then literally attempt the melee the target off of them. The tank tries to regain agro but it is virtually impossible because the dps will not stop attacking for a few minutes. This is also a healers nightmare because I pound my keyboard to keep the dps alive or hear how I am a bad healer if the person dies.The Blessing in a group may been a boon to healers when casting group heals. If I cast both of my group heals while the buff is active, I can heal the group for an additional 1440 points. With the lack of group targets in RoK, I would not receive the same benefit casting nukes. Casters have to do too much work for these weapons to trigger and to take advantage of the buffs. I believe that the agro from the Gleaming Strike and the Smoldering Blessing should be removed from weapons. Most people solo these days making the Blessing weapon useless and the Gleaming Strike weapon can cause problems in groups. The Gleaming Strike has had its damage effect increased. That and some of the stat changes to weapons should be enough to make the weapons more attractive. The Smoldering weapon should be replaced with a Gleaming Blast effect, similar to Grizzfazzle's Blast. That would put it more in line with the Gleaming Strike weapon and casters will still receive full benefit from the weapon even if they are interrupted, stunned, stifled, or knocked down after the weapon was triggered. The Blast would do damage to the target when triggered with no extra work to do afterwards. The effect from the Strike need to be looked at because I was not hitting within the damage range listed in the weapon description.The agro effect and blessing effects would make really good legendary adornments. Three adornments could be made, one that increases agro, one that reduces agro, and one that has the blessing effect. These adornments could be given to weaponsmiths. Honestly I do not think people should be forced to take an agro effect on an imbued weapon to do additional damage nor do I think that casters have to break their fingers trying to use an almost useless buff from a blessed weapon. One last thing... The Gavel, Spike Hammer, Falchion, and Short Sword graphics at T8 really look nice but the Shamshir get a newbie graphic. The Shamshir is a new weapon so it should have one of the new RoK graphics. There is also another graphic that could be used, I can not think of the swords name but I think it was a raid drop. It has the same design as the Mistletoe Cutting Sickle. The Spears also need to be changed. There are so small, even the Tribal Spears.

Lasai

05-05-2008, 06:09 PM

Every weapon can be made in its base form with no imbue effect at all, no one is forcing anyone to have either type. Have a non-imbue version made. Simple fix.I'm not understanding the button mashing problem you are having with the blessed imbue. Imbues proc off default melee strikes, do they not?Test server just shut down, I'll check the descriptions, but mashing CAs or Spells should have no impact on proc rate.

Rashaak

05-05-2008, 06:19 PM

Stike sounds like it's working as intended, so don't understand your arguement. While standing in front of the target, you were stealing aggro from your tank pet, however once behind the target, you got little to know aggro.So I don't understand your arguement with that?As for the damage done by gleaming, it sounds about right for a debuffed target, so that sounds to be working as it should.The Blessed...not so sure about...however 1 in 3 mobs it triggers isn't bad, you can't blame the weapon for the mob knocking you to the ground or your spells not being refreshed. In all...it sounds like you need to adjust your playstyle a little. Oh...and providing logs of fights would be nice. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Rashaak

05-05-2008, 06:25 PM

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every weapon can be made in its base form with no imbue effect at all, no one is forcing anyone to have either type. Have a non-imbue version made. Simple fix.I'm not understanding the button mashing problem you are having with the blessed imbue. Imbues proc off default melee strikes, do they not?Test server just shut down, I'll check the descriptions, but mashing CAs or Spells should have no impact on proc rate.</blockquote>It's been changed to allow for spell/heal skills as well....

Lasai

05-05-2008, 06:37 PM

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every weapon can be made in its base form with no imbue effect at all, no one is forcing anyone to have either type. Have a non-imbue version made. Simple fix.I'm not understanding the button mashing problem you are having with the blessed imbue. Imbues proc off default melee strikes, do they not?Test server just shut down, I'll check the descriptions, but mashing CAs or Spells should have no impact on proc rate.</blockquote>It's been changed to allow for spell/heal skills as well....</blockquote>Well, either way, the fact remains that all imbues are an option, the base weapons are there, as always, and far better than the old ones.Silly for the OP to ask to remove something that you aren't "Forced" to have.

Youngone31

05-06-2008, 11:31 AM

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every weapon can be made in its base form with no imbue effect at all, no one is forcing anyone to have either type. Have a non-imbue version made. Simple fix.</blockquote>You honestly think most people are going to want a weapon without a imbue???? Have you forgotten when the devs wanted to removed imbues and replace them with adornments? People screamed thier bloody heads off. Out of all the weapon I ever made, I never had a person tell me to not imbue the weapon.

Ahlana

05-06-2008, 11:43 AM

Personally as an I am eagerly awaiting the strike imbue and it sounds like it is working from what you posted. Which makes me happy!

Youngone31

05-06-2008, 11:43 AM

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stike sounds like it's working as intended, so don't understand your arguement. While standing in front of the target, you were stealing aggro from your tank pet, however once behind the target, you got little to know aggro.So I don't understand your arguement with that?</blockquote>Yes strike does work. I did not say it did not. Using it solo is fine but my concern as well as other people that I talked to is it use in groups. Everyone does not play this game the same way. 1. People stayed before that tanks do not always turn the target away from the group.2. Alot of dps do not wait until they are behind the target to start attacking.So basically, if these people want to use the new strike weapon. They will have to change thier style of playing. That sounds really fair.I been in groups where dps try to take agro from the tank. They seem to get thier jollies from doing this. The strike weapon is going to make a tank and healer jobs alot harder. On a final note, even though I am level 80. I still use imbued weapons. There are alot of weapon makers that do not use thier own products but are quick to tell somone else what to use and how it works.

Ahlana

05-06-2008, 11:46 AM

My only suggestion on this (and that I have posted elsewhere). is that instead of being a combo proc that you can either have it imbued for aggro or for de-aggro. Not one weapon that does both depending on position.That would solve the majority of the problems people are complaining about with strike. Also it would sell more weapons for the WS lol

Youngone31

05-06-2008, 11:52 AM

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Blessed...not so sure about...however 1 in 3 mobs it triggers isn't bad, you can't blame the weapon for the mob knocking you to the ground or your spells not being refreshed. </blockquote>Its a shame the PvP test server is down. This is another reason why I say the blessed is almost useless. The the weapon triggers, you see a lighting strike. If I am fighting someone with my scout that has one of these weapons. As soon as I see the proc, I would Cheap Shot, Shield bash for the knockdown, then interrupt again if the 12 seconds is not up. I good PvPer would make sure that a person using a blessing weapon would never have a chance to take advantage to the buff.

Lasai

05-06-2008, 12:29 PM

<cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote>Every weapon can be made in its base form with no imbue effect at all, no one is forcing anyone to have either type. Have a non-imbue version made. Simple fix.</blockquote>You honestly think most people are going to want a weapon without a imbue???? Have you forgotten when the devs wanted to removed imbues and replace them with adornments? People screamed thier bloody heads off. Out of all the weapon I ever made, I never had a person tell me to not imbue the weapon.</blockquote>I am not the one asking that the imbues be removed. I'm finding no issues at all with them. Frankly, the DR improvement, the delay improvement added to the larger stat bonus on MC weapons makes them superior to many of the t7 Legendary weapons and they are much better than the old MC versions even with no imbue.I've always used and continue to use MC weapons. This update will make choices possible, and for people who cannot seem to wrap thier head around the mechanics of the imbues there is a viable choice of using weapons without one. The old imbue was a "no brainer" straight damage imbue, the new ones require a bit of thought. As a scout I prefer the option of added damage WITH a threat reduction added to offset that damage if I am in a DPS position, with my SK I am all for ANYTHING that adds threat for me while tanking. Again with my SK, I like the option of a dethreat if I am NOT tanking simply by repositioning, not by swapping weapons out.Imbues have always been "in addition to" item. The best imbue or proc in the world has never made up for a substandard item, and never will. That was one of the issues with old MC weapons. A new 75 DR 3 second swing Stiletto with NO imbue is superior to the old 67 DR 1.6 Stiletto, period. The imbue is just icing on the cake. Furthermore, the improvements are all tiers, with the biggest improvements coming in those tiers that were all cookie cutter 1.6 delay substandard DR weapons. Given the terrible itemization on the old MC weapons, they HAD to be imbued, that was the singular thing they had going for them. This update changes that for all tiers, and it is long overdue. I took my Assassin into Skyfire last night as that is the meanest overland right now. Playing "stupid" I had no issues at all with anything there using a pair of the new weapons, and by "stupid" I mean not waiting for backstabs to cool, bow pulling and "tanking", killing with default swings, etc. The new weapons were far better than the old versions I used doing the waste hunter quests solo, and to me this is exactly where MC weapons need to shine, they are not end game gear, they are and should be a viable choice for the soloist and casual player. For that player, which I am, these new weapons are a vast improvement over the old MC.Furthermore, I would suggest that people pull thier heads out of T8 and consider the effect on the whole game. I have a baby Pally on regular test, at level 14 the sheer joy of using a 6 second STR/INT two hander with two hand stats far outwieghs the nitpicking over positioning requirements. The real impact of the new weapons will come in GETTING to t8, not at endgame.

Rashaak

05-06-2008, 12:35 PM

<cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stike sounds like it's working as intended, so don't understand your arguement. While standing in front of the target, you were stealing aggro from your tank pet, however once behind the target, you got little to know aggro.So I don't understand your arguement with that?</blockquote>Yes strike does work. I did not say it did not. Using it solo is fine but my concern as well as other people that I talked to is it use in groups. Everyone does not play this game the same way. 1. People stayed before that tanks do not always turn the target away from the group.2. Alot of dps do not wait until they are behind the target to start attacking.So basically, if these people want to use the new strike weapon. They will have to change thier style of playing. That sounds really fair.I been in groups where dps try to take agro from the tank. They seem to get thier jollies from doing this. The strike weapon is going to make a tank and healer jobs alot harder. On a final note, even though I am level 80. I still use imbued weapons. There are alot of weapon makers that do not use thier own products but are quick to tell somone else what to use and how it works.</blockquote>Okay, but everything you are saying here is NOT THE WEAPONS fault. What don't you understand about that? Just because a 'player' doesn't attack the same way as another 'player', it doesn't mean the weapon is broken or needs to be changed. If that were the case, the mobs in KP would of been dumbed down to be on par with mobs in KoS when RoK came out. A lot of people said the solo mobs were too tough, too hard, too close together, etc etc etc. Now everyone is saying it's too easy....it's pretty comical really. Especially if you did the BeTa, more than half of the ppl I saw complaining it was too difficult even for solo, are now complaining it's too easy.Anyways...the weapons are working as intended from everything you described. It's not going to be the weapons fault if a player screws up in a group or a raid. It's not the design of the weapon that is the problem, it is the player...

Karlen

05-06-2008, 12:47 PM

The old imbues are gone? Could we have those back as a third choice?

evilgamer

05-06-2008, 12:47 PM

I personally thought the + or - hate effect should also be left off too.I probably will not be inbuing any MC weapons I make or use myself.Since I quit leveling my smith, I doubt I will even be buying MC weapons if the maker chooses to imbue them.

Rashaak

05-06-2008, 01:00 PM

<cite>Karlen@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>The old imbues are gone? Could we have those back as a third choice?</blockquote>There not gone. Gleaming strike is still very much active as it has been. It's just been given an aggro/deaggro positional modifier. The other imbue is now called Blessed, designed specifically for caster types...

Rashaak

05-06-2008, 01:12 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally thought the + or - hate effect should also be left off too.I probably will not be inbuing any MC weapons I make or use myself.Since I quit leveling my smith, I doubt I will even be buying MC weapons if the maker chooses to imbue them.</blockquote>hrm?First you complain that your weapons don't do jack, then complain about how much raws it takes, and now you complain about the changes that make the WS better?I am beginning to think you really don't know what you want, and don't understand this game yet......

evilgamer

05-06-2008, 01:17 PM

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally thought the + or - hate effect should also be left off too.I probably will not be inbuing any MC weapons I make or use myself.Since I quit leveling my smith, I doubt I will even be buying MC weapons if the maker chooses to imbue them.</blockquote>hrm?First you complain that your weapons don't do jack, then complain about how much raws it takes, and now you complain about the changes that make the WS better?I am beginning to think you really don't know what you want, and don't understand this game yet......</blockquote>What?I never once said the weapons "dont do jack", I use them on all my toons.I did complain about the drop rate on feyiron for the writs, I am 100% positive I was not the only to do so.I dont see the + or - hate on the proc as an imporvment, I said I probably will not buy IMBUED MC weapons because I dont think I will like the positional proc. The problems is most smiths do imbue their MC weapons, I hope with these changes some of them stop doing so.Not sure what your point is.

Rashaak

05-06-2008, 01:27 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally thought the + or - hate effect should also be left off too.I probably will not be inbuing any MC weapons I make or use myself.Since I quit leveling my smith, I doubt I will even be buying MC weapons if the maker chooses to imbue them.</blockquote>hrm?First you complain that your weapons don't do jack, then complain about how much raws it takes, and now you complain about the changes that make the WS better?I am beginning to think you really don't know what you want, and don't understand this game yet......</blockquote>What?I never once said the weapons "dont do jack", I use them on all my toons.I did complain about the drop rate on feyiron for the writs, I am 100% positive I was not the only to do so.I dont see the + or - hate on the proc as an imporvment, I said I probably will not buy IMBUED MC weapons because I dont think I will like the positional proc. The problems is most smiths do imbue their MC weapons, I hope with these changes some of them stop doing so.Not sure what your point is.</blockquote>Do i really need to go back and link your posts? And you 'probably' will not buy the MC because of the positional? See...this is my point... you don't know what your talking about. Like I said already....it's not the design of the weapon that is the problem, it is the player...

wolfetx

05-06-2008, 01:31 PM

<cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stike sounds like it's working as intended, so don't understand your arguement. While standing in front of the target, you were stealing aggro from your tank pet, however once behind the target, you got little to know aggro.So I don't understand your arguement with that?</blockquote>Yes strike does work. I did not say it did not. Using it solo is fine but my concern as well as other people that I talked to is it use in groups. Everyone does not play this game the same way. 1. People stayed before that tanks do not always turn the target away from the group.Then those tanks suck and maybe this will be a good tool to finally TEACH them proper tanking!2. Alot of dps do not wait until they are behind the target to start attacking.Then those dps suck and maybe this will be a good tool to finally TEACH them proper positioning.So basically, if these people want to use the new strike weapon. They will have to change thier style of playing. That sounds really fair.Yes i do think its fair as you stated there are a lot of players that dont know the simple basics of combat and this is going to be a awsome tool to finally teach them it!I been in groups where dps try to take agro from the tank. They seem to get thier jollies from doing this. The strike weapon is going to make a tank and healer jobs alot harder.Simple put is your dps is doing this then do you really WANT them in your group or raid? Ill tell you right now any real dps class that wants agro Can take it from any tank if they want to regardless of any agro proc they add. On a final note, even though I am level 80. I still use imbued weapons. There are alot of weapon makers that do not use thier own products but are quick to tell somone else what to use and how it works.</blockquote> Ill tell you right now last exp 2 of the highly desired raid weapons had this exact same proc one was from throne room and one i believe was from EH

Youngone31

05-06-2008, 01:36 PM

I have no problem with the base weapons. I think the changes to them are good. Some of them new designs. One of the main problems people are having is with the strike imbue. If you want your weapon to have a chance to do extra magical damage, you have the take the hate modifiers with it. Alot of people do not like this. They feel it can disrupt thier groups. As for the blessing, its seems to be a good effect. The problem with it is under certain conditions, the buff can be rendered useless.

evilgamer

05-06-2008, 01:37 PM

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally thought the + or - hate effect should also be left off too.I probably will not be inbuing any MC weapons I make or use myself.Since I quit leveling my smith, I doubt I will even be buying MC weapons if the maker chooses to imbue them.</blockquote>hrm?First you complain that your weapons don't do jack, then complain about how much raws it takes, and now you complain about the changes that make the WS better?I am beginning to think you really don't know what you want, and don't understand this game yet......</blockquote>What?I never once said the weapons "dont do jack", I use them on all my toons.I did complain about the drop rate on feyiron for the writs, I am 100% positive I was not the only to do so.I dont see the + or - hate on the proc as an imporvment, I said I probably will not buy IMBUED MC weapons because I dont think I will like the positional proc. The problems is most smiths do imbue their MC weapons, I hope with these changes some of them stop doing so.Not sure what your point is.</blockquote>Do i really need to go back and link your posts? Yes I want you to link the post where I specifically said "MC dont do junk" as you claimed.And you 'probably' will not buy the MC because of the positional? Hello? Do you not understand that MC and imbued MC are not the exact same weapon, one has a proc the other does not. I said I will probably not buy the imbued versions as I dont think I will want the = or - hate positional proc.See...this is my point... you don't know what your talking about. Like I said already....it's not the design of the weapon that is the problem, it is the player...So I dont want a weapons that procs neg hate on a tank toon or + hate on a dps and I am clueless because of that? Lol I beg to differ. I personally think in an "ideal" world the proc makes sense, but most of the pick up groups that I am in are usually far from ideal.</blockquote>

evilgamer

05-06-2008, 01:40 PM

<cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote>One of the main problems people are having is with the strike imbue. If you want your weapon to have a chance to do extra magical damage, you have the take the hate modifiers with it. Alot of people do not like this. They feel it can disrupt thier groups. </blockquote>EXACTLY!!!

Rashaak

05-06-2008, 01:41 PM

<cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have no problem with the base weapons. I think the changes to them are good. Some of them new designs. One of the main problems people are having is with the strike imbue. If you want your weapon to have a chance to do extra magical damage, you have the take the hate modifiers with it. Alot of people do not like this. They feel it can disrupt thier groups. As for the blessing, its seems to be a good effect. The problem with it is under certain conditions, the buff can be rendered useless.</blockquote>I honestly don't think it's going to have that major of an effect in groups tbh.These weapons were designed to allow for both melee and caster types. If a caster 'fears' a hate proc, well then...they go with the Blessed, but now they have to worry about doing more damage when the buff goes off.There are so many scenarios of what can go wrong in a group, solo, or in a raid, but...it is a part of the game. The fact remains though... IT'S NOT GOING TO BE THE WEAPONS FAULT FOR POOR GAME PLAY AND AGGRO MANAGEMENT OF THE PLAYER

Razlath

05-06-2008, 01:41 PM

Just a thought, but maybe an answer that would help all around would be to make two seperate imbues. One that has the +/- hate proc and one that has just the magic damage proc. This would have the extra added benefit of giving Weaponsmiths even more recipes to make. If there really is this much division over it, then maybe some choice needs to be given back to the players. Let the players decide which they would rather use and not force them to take something they don't want to get something they do.

Rashaak

05-06-2008, 01:44 PM

Rashaak

05-06-2008, 01:55 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally thought the + or - hate effect should also be left off too.I probably will not be inbuing any MC weapons I make or use myself.Since I quit leveling my smith, I doubt I will even be buying MC weapons if the maker chooses to imbue them.</blockquote>hrm?First you complain that your weapons don't do jack, then complain about how much raws it takes, and now you complain about the changes that make the WS better?I am beginning to think you really don't know what you want, and don't understand this game yet......</blockquote>What?I never once said the weapons "dont do jack", I use them on all my toons.I did complain about the drop rate on feyiron for the writs, I am 100% positive I was not the only to do so.I dont see the + or - hate on the proc as an imporvment, I said I probably will not buy IMBUED MC weapons because I dont think I will like the positional proc. The problems is most smiths do imbue their MC weapons, I hope with these changes some of them stop doing so.Not sure what your point is.</blockquote>Do i really need to go back and link your posts? Yes I want you to link the post where I specifically said "MC dont do junk" as you claimed.And you 'probably' will not buy the MC because of the positional? Hello? Do you not understand that MC and imbued MC are not the exact same weapon, one has a proc the other does not. I said I will probably not buy the imbued versions as I dont think I will want the = or - hate positional proc.See...this is my point... you don't know what your talking about. Like I said already....it's not the design of the weapon that is the problem, it is the player...So I dont want a weapons that procs neg hate on a tank toon or + hate on a dps and I am clueless because of that? Lol I beg to differ. I personally think in an "ideal" world the proc makes sense, but most of the pick up groups that I am in are usually far from ideal.</blockquote></blockquote>Check your PM's son, I linked your comments of the craft being broke.Second we had this discussion in great length in the TS forum and several posters including myself told you the same thing that you are continuing to argue about. Yes it has a CHANCE of proc'ing neg aggro... a CHANCE. A very very very slim chance IF THE PLAYER KNOWS HOW TO PLAY HIS TOON!!! [Removed for Content] do you not understand about that! My god man! Your simply clueless...really...you are.

ke'la

05-06-2008, 01:56 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally thought the + or - hate effect should also be left off too.I probably will not be inbuing any MC weapons I make or use myself.Since I quit leveling my smith, I doubt I will even be buying MC weapons if the maker chooses to imbue them.</blockquote>hrm?First you complain that your weapons don't do jack, then complain about how much raws it takes, and now you complain about the changes that make the WS better?I am beginning to think you really don't know what you want, and don't understand this game yet......</blockquote>What?I never once said the weapons "dont do jack", I use them on all my toons.I did complain about the drop rate on feyiron for the writs, I am 100% positive I was not the only to do so.I dont see the + or - hate on the proc as an imporvment, I said I probably will not buy IMBUED MC weapons because I dont think I will like the positional proc. The problems is most smiths do imbue their MC weapons, I hope with these changes some of them stop doing so.Not sure what your point is.</blockquote>Do i really need to go back and link your posts? Yes I want you to link the post where I specifically said "MC dont do junk" as you claimed.And you 'probably' will not buy the MC because of the positional? Hello? Do you not understand that MC and imbued MC are not the exact same weapon, one has a proc the other does not. I said I will probably not buy the imbued versions as I dont think I will want the = or - hate positional proc.See...this is my point... you don't know what your talking about. Like I said already....it's not the design of the weapon that is the problem, it is the player...So I dont want a weapons that procs neg hate on a tank toon or + hate on a dps and I am clueless because of that? Lol I beg to differ. I personally think in an "ideal" world the proc makes sense, but most of the pick up groups that I am in are usually far from ideal.</blockquote></blockquote>I am not a very good DPSer, I don't min/max my caractor I just go out and have fun, but I do know one thing, if your DPS and your NOT behind the mob, its YOUR BAD and you need to get behind it. Why? For a bunch of reasons.<ol><li>You do more damage from behind as the mob can't Block/deflect from behind</li><li>The MoB can't Reparse causing you to take damage</li><li>You will get cought in fewer AoEs</li><li>If a scout you will accually be able to use your a good number of your CAs</li></ol>Basically if your in a DPS position, you should already be behind the MoB, if not you are already a BAD DPSer.As for Tanks procing a DeHate well if the tank has agro the MoB is already facing the tank, if someone peals agro it's fairly easy to turn off auto attack until the tank gets back in front of the MoB and just taunt(Taunt does not turn on auto attack)

Lasai

05-06-2008, 02:05 PM

<cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just a thought, but maybe an answer that would help all around would be to make two seperate imbues. One that has the +/- hate proc and one that has just the magic damage proc. This would have the extra added benefit of giving Weaponsmiths even more recipes to make. If there really is this much division over it, then maybe some choice needs to be given back to the players. Let the players decide which they would rather use and not force them to take something they don't want to get something they do.</blockquote>What division? A couple of people, mainly, and one of those apparently isn't actually basing an opinion on actual testing.And frankly, target market. Most of Kunark is solo quest content. Most of the leveling game is done solo now. For most MC users it isn't going to make one whit of difference where they are positionally or what threat proc goes off, it is very much a non-issue for a large segment of the MC using market. For the casual player doing SOLO content or leveling the damage proc will be there, and the threat proc will be a matter of no concern.If a solo pet user can't grasp the concept of getting behind a mob his pet is tanking it isnt the fault of the weapon.If people grouping cannot grasp the concept of positional threat management, it is also not the fault of the weapon.Nobody is being "forced" to take anything. If positioning is beyond your capability, you can choose to use a blessed imbue, or none at all. Or, you could hoard up those wonderful no brain proc Current MC weapons and be happy with 1.6 swing times for 7 tiers and substandard DR. They aren't changing, but wait, aren't those the ones everybody called "useless"?

evilgamer

05-06-2008, 02:06 PM

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>I personally thought the + or - hate effect should also be left off too.I probably will not be inbuing any MC weapons I make or use myself.Since I quit leveling my smith, I doubt I will even be buying MC weapons if the maker chooses to imbue them.</blockquote>hrm?First you complain that your weapons don't do jack, then complain about how much raws it takes, and now you complain about the changes that make the WS better?I am beginning to think you really don't know what you want, and don't understand this game yet......</blockquote>What?I never once said the weapons "dont do jack", I use them on all my toons.I did complain about the drop rate on feyiron for the writs, I am 100% positive I was not the only to do so.I dont see the + or - hate on the proc as an imporvment, I said I probably will not buy IMBUED MC weapons because I dont think I will like the positional proc. The problems is most smiths do imbue their MC weapons, I hope with these changes some of them stop doing so.Not sure what your point is.</blockquote>Do i really need to go back and link your posts? Yes I want you to link the post where I specifically said "MC dont do junk" as you claimed.And you 'probably' will not buy the MC because of the positional? Hello? Do you not understand that MC and imbued MC are not the exact same weapon, one has a proc the other does not. I said I will probably not buy the imbued versions as I dont think I will want the = or - hate positional proc.See...this is my point... you don't know what your talking about. Like I said already....it's not the design of the weapon that is the problem, it is the player...So I dont want a weapons that procs neg hate on a tank toon or + hate on a dps and I am clueless because of that? Lol I beg to differ. I personally think in an "ideal" world the proc makes sense, but most of the pick up groups that I am in are usually far from ideal.</blockquote></blockquote>Check your PM's son, I linked your comments of the craft being broke.Yes I did say broke, and then admitted that was a bit strong.I quit leveling my smith, so not sure what you point is here, I still dont see it to be all that viable of a trade except to twink alts. THAT IS JUST MY OPINION, othes will vary.Second we had this discussion in great length in the TS forum and several posters including myself told you the same thing that you are continuing to argue about. Yes it has a CHANCE of proc'ing neg aggro... a CHANCE. A very very very slim chance IF THE PLAYER KNOWS HOW TO PLAY HIS TOON!!! [I cannot control my vocabulary] do you not understand about that! My god man! Your simply clueless...really...you are.LOL is this how you debate:YOU ARE CLUELESS, I WIN!!I said I dont like the proc nor will I want them on my weapons, get over it, its just an OPINION! Others will like the proc, good for them, I dont care.If I cant find a MC weapon without the proc I simply wont use them [Removed for Content] do you care what weapon I use.All you should be careing about is what the customers/players think of this proc. Its they who will be the ultimate judge.</blockquote>

evilgamer

05-06-2008, 02:11 PM

Frankly this whole debate is a bit silly, dont buy the imburd version if you dont want the positional proc.If people suddenly stop wanting the imbued versions well there is your answer right there as to how useful the proc is, considering that everyone pretty much wanted the old proc on a MC weapon.

Razlath

05-06-2008, 02:12 PM

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just a thought, but maybe an answer that would help all around would be to make two seperate imbues. One that has the +/- hate proc and one that has just the magic damage proc. This would have the extra added benefit of giving Weaponsmiths even more recipes to make. If there really is this much division over it, then maybe some choice needs to be given back to the players. Let the players decide which they would rather use and not force them to take something they don't want to get something they do.</blockquote>There are two choices as it is. You don't want the hate proc...then go with the Blessed.</blockquote>Apologies I might have missed something, but I was under the understanding that the blessed proc was primarily for spellcasters? Other than on test are the actual wordings of the procs listed anywhere? I haven't had a chance to log into test since these went live to check them out for myself. If you have a link to the actual proc wording I would appreciate it.

Razlath

05-06-2008, 02:19 PM

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just a thought, but maybe an answer that would help all around would be to make two seperate imbues. One that has the +/- hate proc and one that has just the magic damage proc. This would have the extra added benefit of giving Weaponsmiths even more recipes to make. If there really is this much division over it, then maybe some choice needs to be given back to the players. Let the players decide which they would rather use and not force them to take something they don't want to get something they do.</blockquote>What division? A couple of people, mainly, and one of those apparently isn't actually basing an opinion on actual testing.And frankly, target market. Most of Kunark is solo quest content. Most of the leveling game is done solo now. For most MC users it isn't going to make one whit of difference where they are positionally or what threat proc goes off, it is very much a non-issue for a large segment of the MC using market. For the casual player doing SOLO Kunark content the damage proc will be there, and the threat proc will be a matter of no concern.</blockquote>What division? I have seen numerous posts from numerous people not just in this thread but in others about this. Most are beaten down and give up thanks to people who flame them into nothingness for voicing an opinion. Why should your preference be forced on others? What if I had decided that since most of the player base likes black the only armor available should be black? That would peeve some peeps off who happen to like other colors.If there is a version without the hate effect then great. As I said in a previous post people's comments were implying the blessed was for spellcasters. I personally have not had a chance to look at the procs themselves or weapons with the proc on them. I would love to see the actual wording or a screenie of an item, but just have not had much luck looking for one.I am not voicing an opinion either way, as I just don't know. I won't form an opinion until I see the actual weapons or the wording on the procs, and then probably not until I get a chance to mess with them. I just believe that a change like this should not be forced on people. Especially when the weaponsmiths could use more weapon recipes anyway. Seems like a really easy way to kill two birds with one stone. I really don't understand why you would be against that personally.

Lasai

05-06-2008, 02:23 PM

Razlath

05-06-2008, 02:24 PM

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just a thought, but maybe an answer that would help all around would be to make two seperate imbues. One that has the +/- hate proc and one that has just the magic damage proc. This would have the extra added benefit of giving Weaponsmiths even more recipes to make. If there really is this much division over it, then maybe some choice needs to be given back to the players. Let the players decide which they would rather use and not force them to take something they don't want to get something they do.</blockquote>There are two choices as it is. You don't want the hate proc...then go with the Blessed.</blockquote>Apologies I might have missed something, but I was under the understanding that the blessed proc was primarily for spellcasters? Other than on test are the actual wordings of the procs listed anywhere? I haven't had a chance to log into test since these went live to check them out for myself. If you have a link to the actual proc wording I would appreciate it.</blockquote>From memory, Blessed proc has same proc rate as melee proc, 1.8 per second, but procs off spell or heal. Proc will give a 12 second buff of plus spell damage or heal amount when it fires.</blockquote>So there is no option if I want a melee proc but don't want the hate ditherer?

denmom

05-06-2008, 02:28 PM

<cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just a thought, but maybe an answer that would help all around would be to make two seperate imbues. One that has the +/- hate proc and one that has just the magic damage proc. This would have the extra added benefit of giving Weaponsmiths even more recipes to make. If there really is this much division over it, then maybe some choice needs to be given back to the players. Let the players decide which they would rather use and not force them to take something they don't want to get something they do.</blockquote>There are two choices as it is. You don't want the hate proc...then go with the Blessed.</blockquote>Apologies I might have missed something, but I was under the understanding that the blessed proc was primarily for spellcasters? Other than on test are the actual wordings of the procs listed anywhere? I haven't had a chance to log into test since these went live to check them out for myself. If you have a link to the actual proc wording I would appreciate it.</blockquote>Blessed would work for casters, healers, Crusaders, and the scouts who have spells. It'd not work for the other CA only scouts and Warriors. They have no spells or heals.There's a desc of what the imbues will do on EQ2 Traders. Scroll down to the bottom of the page.<a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.eqtraders.com/articles/article_page.php?article=g254&menustr=115000000000" target="_blank">http://eq2.eqtraders.com/articles/a...tr=115000000000</a>EDIT: My apologies.I was misinformed and made a mistake.Link removed, wrong information.But...frankly, a bad tank, bad dps, bad mage, bad healer will always be bad unless they want to learn. I've run into many in my 4 yrs of playing on two servers who are set in their ways and don't care and will do just what they want despite there being a "proper way" to play their class.Also, there are too many variations, too many things that can lead to a great or bad group. Will the new GS imbue help? Maybe for those who want to learn, but for others I don't think so...as I said above, unless a "bad" player wants to learn the hows and change their playstyle, it'd not matter at all.

Lasai

05-06-2008, 02:29 PM

<cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just a thought, but maybe an answer that would help all around would be to make two seperate imbues. One that has the +/- hate proc and one that has just the magic damage proc. This would have the extra added benefit of giving Weaponsmiths even more recipes to make. If there really is this much division over it, then maybe some choice needs to be given back to the players. Let the players decide which they would rather use and not force them to take something they don't want to get something they do.</blockquote>What division? A couple of people, mainly, and one of those apparently isn't actually basing an opinion on actual testing.And frankly, target market. Most of Kunark is solo quest content. Most of the leveling game is done solo now. For most MC users it isn't going to make one whit of difference where they are positionally or what threat proc goes off, it is very much a non-issue for a large segment of the MC using market. For the casual player doing SOLO Kunark content the damage proc will be there, and the threat proc will be a matter of no concern.</blockquote>What division? I have seen numerous posts from numerous people not just in this thread but in others about this. Most are beaten down and give up thanks to people who flame them into nothingness for voicing an opinion. Why should your preference be forced on others? What if I had decided that since most of the player base likes black the only armor available should be black? That would peeve some peeps off who happen to like other colors.If there is a version without the hate effect then great. As I said in a previous post people's comments were implying the blessed was for spellcasters. I personally have not had a chance to look at the procs themselves or weapons with the proc on them. I would love to see the actual wording or a screenie of an item, but just have not had much luck looking for one.I am not voicing an opinion either way, as I just don't know. I won't form an opinion until I see the actual weapons or the wording on the procs, and then probably not until I get a chance to mess with them. I just believe that a change like this should not be forced on people. Especially when the weaponsmiths could use more weapon recipes anyway. Seems like a really easy way to kill two birds with one stone. I really don't understand why you would be against that personally.</blockquote>Im not against anything but the "sky is falling", uninformed, chicken little reaction to the best changes Weaponsmiths have recieved since this game went live.The proc change is peanuts compared to 7 levels of proper itemization, swing times, and two hand weapons finally recieving two hand stats. The proc change will require some gameplay adjustment, which to me is nothing compared to the vast improvement of all MC weapons.Focusing on this minor Proc issue ignores 90% of what actually got accomplished.If people don't like the proc, there is a third choice. Honestly, the weapons have been improved to the point where proc is secondary consideration for most levels. I mean this wholeheartedly. One new t8 staff is 100str, 100 int, 99DR with 6 seccond swing. with NO imbue at all it is superior to current MC.

Rashaak

05-06-2008, 02:29 PM

<cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just a thought, but maybe an answer that would help all around would be to make two seperate imbues. One that has the +/- hate proc and one that has just the magic damage proc. This would have the extra added benefit of giving Weaponsmiths even more recipes to make. If there really is this much division over it, then maybe some choice needs to be given back to the players. Let the players decide which they would rather use and not force them to take something they don't want to get something they do.</blockquote>There are two choices as it is. You don't want the hate proc...then go with the Blessed.</blockquote>Apologies I might have missed something, but I was under the understanding that the blessed proc was primarily for spellcasters? Other than on test are the actual wordings of the procs listed anywhere? I haven't had a chance to log into test since these went live to check them out for myself. If you have a link to the actual proc wording I would appreciate it.</blockquote>From memory, Blessed proc has same proc rate as melee proc, 1.8 per second, but procs off spell or heal. Proc will give a 12 second buff of plus spell damage or heal amount when it fires.</blockquote>So there is no option if I want a melee proc but don't want the hate ditherer?</blockquote>There is an option. Imbued isn't the only way to obtain a proc on a weapon...you do still have adornments

Rashaak

05-06-2008, 02:31 PM

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just a thought, but maybe an answer that would help all around would be to make two seperate imbues. One that has the +/- hate proc and one that has just the magic damage proc. This would have the extra added benefit of giving Weaponsmiths even more recipes to make. If there really is this much division over it, then maybe some choice needs to be given back to the players. Let the players decide which they would rather use and not force them to take something they don't want to get something they do.</blockquote>What division? A couple of people, mainly, and one of those apparently isn't actually basing an opinion on actual testing.And frankly, target market. Most of Kunark is solo quest content. Most of the leveling game is done solo now. For most MC users it isn't going to make one whit of difference where they are positionally or what threat proc goes off, it is very much a non-issue for a large segment of the MC using market. For the casual player doing SOLO Kunark content the damage proc will be there, and the threat proc will be a matter of no concern.</blockquote>What division? I have seen numerous posts from numerous people not just in this thread but in others about this. Most are beaten down and give up thanks to people who flame them into nothingness for voicing an opinion. Why should your preference be forced on others? What if I had decided that since most of the player base likes black the only armor available should be black? That would peeve some peeps off who happen to like other colors.If there is a version without the hate effect then great. As I said in a previous post people's comments were implying the blessed was for spellcasters. I personally have not had a chance to look at the procs themselves or weapons with the proc on them. I would love to see the actual wording or a screenie of an item, but just have not had much luck looking for one.I am not voicing an opinion either way, as I just don't know. I won't form an opinion until I see the actual weapons or the wording on the procs, and then probably not until I get a chance to mess with them. I just believe that a change like this should not be forced on people. Especially when the weaponsmiths could use more weapon recipes anyway. Seems like a really easy way to kill two birds with one stone. I really don't understand why you would be against that personally.</blockquote>Im not against anything but the "sky is falling", uninformed, chicken little reaction to the best changes Weaponsmiths have recieved since this game went live.The proc change is peanuts compared to 7 levels of proper itemization, swing times, and two hand weapons finally recieving two hand stats. The proc change will require some gameplay adjustment, which to me is nothing compared to the vast improvement of all MC weapons.Focusing on this minor Proc issue ignores 90% of what actually got accomplished.</blockquote>QFE

Razlath

05-06-2008, 02:33 PM

<cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Blessed would work for casters, healers, Crusaders, and the scouts who have spells. It'd not work for the other CA only scouts and Warriors. They have no spells or heals.There's a desc of what the imbues will do on EQ2 Traders. Scroll down to the bottom of the page.<a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.eqtraders.com/articles/article_page.php?article=g254&menustr=115000000000" target="_blank">http://eq2.eqtraders.com/articles/a...tr=115000000000</a></blockquote>Thank you Pheep! After reading them, the blessed certainly is not an option for people who don't like the feel of the hate proc dither. Perhaps they can just leave all three in place. I still don't think the weaponsmiths would complain about more recipes. ;} I still think choices such as this should be in the players hands. If the hate proc appeals then use that, if not then don't. But to tie the melee proc to hate with no alternative is unfortunate.Been a long time since I bounced by EQ2Traders, I had forgotten all about them. Thank you again!

Youngone31

05-06-2008, 02:46 PM

<cite>wolfetx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stike sounds like it's working as intended, so don't understand your arguement. While standing in front of the target, you were stealing aggro from your tank pet, however once behind the target, you got little to know aggro.So I don't understand your arguement with that?</blockquote>Yes strike does work. I did not say it did not. Using it solo is fine but my concern as well as other people that I talked to is it use in groups. Everyone does not play this game the same way. 1. People sayed before that tanks do not always turn the target away from the group.Then those tanks suck and maybe this will be a good tool to finally TEACH them proper tanking!2. Alot of dps do not wait until they are behind the target to start attacking.Then those dps suck and maybe this will be a good tool to finally TEACH them proper positioning.So basically, if these people want to use the new strike weapon. They will have to change thier style of playing. That sounds really fair.Yes i do think its fair as you stated there are a lot of players that dont know the simple basics of combat and this is going to be a awsome tool to finally teach them it!I been in groups where dps try to take agro from the tank. They seem to get thier jollies from doing this. The strike weapon is going to make a tank and healer jobs alot harder.Simple put is your dps is doing this then do you really WANT them in your group or raid? Ill tell you right now any real dps class that wants agro Can take it from any tank if they want to regardless of any agro proc they add.On a final note, even though I am level 80. I still use imbued weapons. There are alot of weapon makers that do not use thier own products but are quick to tell somone else what to use and how it works.</blockquote> Ill tell you right now last exp 2 of the highly desired raid weapons had this exact same proc one was from throne room and one i believe was from EH</blockquote>You may not realize this but people with physical limitations play this game. I know a tank that could lock down and control agro better than raid tanks but did not always turn the target. I guess by your definition, this person sucks. If a person is good at holding agro, they will not need the additional hate buff from the Gleaming Strike.

Rashaak

05-06-2008, 02:47 PM

<cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Blessed would work for casters, healers, Crusaders, and the scouts who have spells. It'd not work for the other CA only scouts and Warriors. They have no spells or heals.There's a desc of what the imbues will do on EQ2 Traders. Scroll down to the bottom of the page.<a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.eqtraders.com/articles/article_page.php?article=g254&menustr=115000000000" target="_blank">http://eq2.eqtraders.com/articles/a...tr=115000000000</a></blockquote>Thank you Pheep! After reading them, the blessed certainly is not an option for people who don't like the feel of the hate proc dither. Perhaps they can just leave all three in place. I still don't think the weaponsmiths would complain about more recipes. ;} I still think choices such as this should be in the players hands. If the hate proc appeals then use that, if not then don't. But to tie the melee proc to hate with no alternative is unfortunate.Been a long time since I bounced by EQ2Traders, I had forgotten all about them. Thank you again!</blockquote>There are already alternatives to having the weapon have a proc that do just as much if not more than gleaming strike can do. For those that don't want the hate proc, you can still use an adornment if you require a dd proc. As a WS I can tell you this much....while it would be nice to have an addt'l imbue...it's unrealistic. We received a huge upgrade to not only weapons but recipe count. There are a total of 150 recipes now for WS and 20 for WW in regards to weapons, anything more than that would not be good especially when so many other crafts require attention as well.On a side note...I'll make an alternative suggestion to this hate proc issue that players gripe about without little comprehension of how aggro works, fearing the worse, and would much rather things around them change than they change themselves...I'll make a compromise...Make the aggro increaser/decreaser into an adornment

Youngone31

05-06-2008, 02:56 PM

The best thing that can be done is have two different imbues. One that procs magical damage off melee and one that procs magical damage off of spells. A Gleaming Strike and a Gleaming Blast.The other effects such and the agro modifiers and the blessing spell enhancement can be made into adornments. That way if people want more abilities on thier weopons, they can have them. That is how it has been for a long time. Why change what works if it is not broken.

denmom

05-06-2008, 02:57 PM

evilgamer

05-06-2008, 03:04 PM

<cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote> That way if people want more abilities on thier weopons, they can have them. That is how it has been for a long time. Why change what works if it is not broken.</blockquote>Which was my point. Right now everyone wants their weapons imbued, with this hate proc I am not so sure.The problems with MC wasnt gleaming strike in its current form, it was itemization and cost.I have to LOL, at the people who think this hate proc will teach anyone proper mob postioning. Some will adapt, some will simply buy the non imbued versions.I am wondering how going from a proc that pretty much everyone wanted to one that a few may not is a boost, but that is just me.

denmom

05-06-2008, 03:21 PM

<cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>wolfetx wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>Stike sounds like it's working as intended, so don't understand your arguement. While standing in front of the target, you were stealing aggro from your tank pet, however once behind the target, you got little to know aggro.So I don't understand your arguement with that?</blockquote>Yes strike does work. I did not say it did not. Using it solo is fine but my concern as well as other people that I talked to is it use in groups. Everyone does not play this game the same way. 1. People sayed before that tanks do not always turn the target away from the group.Then those tanks suck and maybe this will be a good tool to finally TEACH them proper tanking!2. Alot of dps do not wait until they are behind the target to start attacking.Then those dps suck and maybe this will be a good tool to finally TEACH them proper positioning.So basically, if these people want to use the new strike weapon. They will have to change thier style of playing. That sounds really fair.Yes i do think its fair as you stated there are a lot of players that dont know the simple basics of combat and this is going to be a awsome tool to finally teach them it!I been in groups where dps try to take agro from the tank. They seem to get thier jollies from doing this. The strike weapon is going to make a tank and healer jobs alot harder.Simple put is your dps is doing this then do you really WANT them in your group or raid? Ill tell you right now any real dps class that wants agro Can take it from any tank if they want to regardless of any agro proc they add.On a final note, even though I am level 80. I still use imbued weapons. There are alot of weapon makers that do not use thier own products but are quick to tell somone else what to use and how it works.</blockquote> Ill tell you right now last exp 2 of the highly desired raid weapons had this exact same proc one was from throne room and one i believe was from EH</blockquote>You may not realize this but people with physical limitations play this game. I know a tank that could lock down and control agro better than raid tanks but did not always turn the target. I guess by your definition, this person sucks. If a person is good at holding agro, they will not need the additional hate buff from the Gleaming Strike.</blockquote>I'm very loathe to say much because I know that I'll get named as a player who sucks because I don't play my class(es) the correct way. But I have to say something in response to Youngone31's comment.I'll admit that I'm one of those type of tank players. I have a very hard time turning the mob.And believe me, I've tried. I wind up spinning in a circle. I've asked guildees how they do it, I've spoken to other tanks, I've read the forums. I've watched tanks closely as I heal (my main is a L80 Warden), I've asked questions in level chat...I've tried time and time and time again...but I just can't do it.I can hold aggro, I can peel it. I play a Paladin, Zerker, Guard. But the mysterious ability of turning the mob just plain eludes me.My regular group mates (guildees and friends) aren't ones to kiss butt and tell me I'm a great tank, if I make mistakes they tell me so I won't make them again because I want to learn. My inability to turn mobs confounds them too. So they adjust to my weird way of "turning"...I pull the mob far back to where I'm going to plant and fight, backing up thru the group and when I stop the mob's back is to them. A bit wonky, but it works.I'm also one who can't play a scout correctly, at least according to what is seen as correct play. Leaping behind the mob also eludes me. And I've played every scout class there is until finally settling on the Swashbuckler...I can play it like a tank and Walk the Plank allows me to spin the mob and backstab. If I queue attacks right, I can hit with both back stabs.Just pointing out that some players do have the lack of ability to play a class the "correct" way, but make do with adjustment to playing the class to where it works out well enough. This new GS takes away the choice for us odd players of having a bit more damage added to our weapons. Sure, there's adornments...but I don't think adornments give the same amount of damage that GS does.

denmom

05-06-2008, 03:28 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote> That way if people want more abilities on thier weopons, they can have them. That is how it has been for a long time. Why change what works if it is not broken.</blockquote>Which was my point. Right now everyone wants their weapons imbued, with this hate proc I am not so sure.The problems with MC wasnt gleaming strike in its current form, it was itemization and cost.I have to LOL, at the people who think this hate proc will teach anyone proper mob postioning. Some will adapt, some will simply buy the non imbued versions.I am wondering how going from a proc that pretty much everyone wanted to one that a few may not is a boost, but that is just me.</blockquote>You're not the only one.I've 8 crafters, the only I don't have is Armourer. As a WS, I do make a lot of imbued weapons. But with this new GS I can't in good conscience imbue a weapon for anyone unless I know they have the facts on what it does. Many don't, they just go with what others tell them to get.And true, as I said in another post in this thread, most are set in their ways and won't learn unless they want to. And I've yet to run into a bad tank, bad mage, bad scout, bad healer who was willing to.

Captain_Xpendab

05-06-2008, 03:40 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I am wondering how going from a proc that pretty much everyone wanted to one that a few may not is a boost, but that is just me.</blockquote>Good point, This could be viewed as a nerf to anyone who has frontal only CA's. Before this gleaming strike was just some nice extra damage, after this goes live many will probably have to give up that damage because it's not worth not being able to use their frontals.And no, adornments don't replace imbues because you can adorn imbued weapons, you still lose out. Fortunately, I've been able to purchase all the MC weapons with the current imbue I'm going to need for all tiers, I won't have to worry about this until after the level cap is raised and I get to t9 (somewhere around 2025). Unfortunately, after this goes live no one else will have this option once the old imbues disappear from the market.

Lasai

05-06-2008, 03:54 PM

<cite>Captain_Xpendable wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I am wondering how going from a proc that pretty much everyone wanted to one that a few may not is a boost, but that is just me.</blockquote>Good point, This could be viewed as a nerf to anyone who has frontal only CA's. Before this gleaming strike was just some nice extra damage, after this goes live many will probably have to give up that damage because it's not worth not being able to use their frontals.And no, adornments don't replace imbues because you can adorn imbued weapons, you still lose out. Fortunately, I've been able to purchase all the MC weapons with the current imbue I'm going to need for all tiers, I won't have to worry about this until after the level cap is raised and I get to t9 (somewhere around 2025). Unfortunately, after this goes live no one else will have this option once the old imbues disappear from the market.</blockquote>/boggle. Please, take an actual look at the new DR and Delays and tell me you are going to keep the old stuff.On normal test I have tossed/muted every old MC weapon I had. Non Imbued MC at most levels is better than old world legendary. For as long as I have played this game people have ignored the gleaming Proc in favor of DR and Delay on loot weapons. They have ignored the stat bonus on MC in favor of DR and Delay on loot weapons.Now, we have improved DR and Delay on MC weapons, and people are having a cow about a proc that was never quite good enough to beat DR and Delay.Ok, Im speechless now.carry on.

Rashaak

05-06-2008, 04:16 PM

<cite>Captain_Xpendable wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I am wondering how going from a proc that pretty much everyone wanted to one that a few may not is a boost, but that is just me.</blockquote>Good point, This could be viewed as a nerf to anyone who has frontal only CA's. Before this gleaming strike was just some nice extra damage, after this goes live many will probably have to give up that damage because it's not worth not being able to use their frontals.Scouts are the only ones that have positional attacks (aside from Brawlers). But it consists of 1 attack only. One. O N E. The likely-hood of this proc going off at the wrong time is slim to none, and if goes off, the player should be back behind the mob too quickly for it to even really matter.And no, adornments don't replace imbues because you can adorn imbued weapons, you still lose out. Adornments were slotted to replace imbues when EoF came out, however due to a public outcry (I was probably only one of maybe 10 ppl for the change), imbues were left in. Since the imbue was left in, that meant at that time, the player had to choose between Adornment or Imbue...you couldn't have both. That was changed a few months later (think around the release of Neriak) to where you could have Imbue and Adorned MC weapons.So yes...adornment can replace imbues, and I hope someday the imbue is done away with...Fortunately, I've been able to purchase all the MC weapons with the current imbue I'm going to need for all tiers, I won't have to worry about this until after the level cap is raised and I get to t9 (somewhere around 2025). Unfortunately, after this goes live no one else will have this option once the old imbues disappear from the market.</blockquote>lol, this last comment reminds me of everyone who made bunkers in '99 fearing the end of the world once the clock struck midnight. Everyone huddled around t.v.s and radios, watching and listening to hear evidence the world had ended. Planes falling from the sky, nuclear power plants imploding, etc etc etc.../sigh

evilgamer

05-06-2008, 04:23 PM

denmom

05-06-2008, 04:25 PM

<cite></cite>My apologies.I was misinformed and made a mistake.Link removed, wrong information.

Lasai

05-06-2008, 04:32 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>What is your point, nobody was talking about the DR, just the proc. The point was nobody complained about old proc, so why was the proc "fixed".</blockquote>Not addressing you, as this board has no option for Big Chief Tablet format, Crayon fonts and pictographs.Im logging on to test now, to continue actually using these new weapons, with the new procs, in the actual game.You might want to try that, once,

evilgamer

05-06-2008, 04:40 PM

<cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2dev.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/pick-up-groups/" target="_blank">http://eq2dev.wordpress.com/2008/05...pick-up-groups/</a></blockquote>Which just goes back to my point people will simply just buy them without the proc.The whole "point" of these changes were to make MC more viable as a tradeskill.Once again, how does going from a proc that everyone wanted to a proc that some do not an improvement?

denmom

05-06-2008, 04:41 PM

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>What is your point, nobody was talking about the DR, just the proc. The point was nobody complained about old proc, so why was the proc "fixed".</blockquote>Not addressing you, as this board has no option for Big Chief Tablet format, Crayon fonts and pictographs.</blockquote>Aw, c'mon Lasai...no need to be snarky...that just makes the thread devolve into more snarkiness and eventual lock down.

evilgamer

05-06-2008, 04:45 PM

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>What is your point, nobody was talking about the DR, just the proc. The point was nobody complained about old proc, so why was the proc "fixed".</blockquote>Not addressing you, as this board has no option for Big Chief Tablet format, Crayon fonts and pictographs.Im logging on to test now, to continue actually using these new weapons, with the new procs, in the actual game.You might want to try that, once, </blockquote>Childish name calling and personal attacks. What is the matter can not argue your point effectively?

evilgamer

05-06-2008, 04:47 PM

<cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>What is your point, nobody was talking about the DR, just the proc. The point was nobody complained about old proc, so why was the proc "fixed".</blockquote>Not addressing you, as this board has no option for Big Chief Tablet format, Crayon fonts and pictographs.</blockquote>Aw, c'mon Lasai...no need to be snarky...that just makes the thread devolve into more snarkiness and eventual lock down.</blockquote>That is what little kids do when they can not argue effectively, call names and make personal attacks. He is obviously quite childish.

denmom

05-06-2008, 04:55 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote>What is your point, nobody was talking about the DR, just the proc. The point was nobody complained about old proc, so why was the proc "fixed".</blockquote>Not addressing you, as this board has no option for Big Chief Tablet format, Crayon fonts and pictographs.</blockquote>Aw, c'mon Lasai...no need to be snarky...that just makes the thread devolve into more snarkiness and eventual lock down.</blockquote>That is what little kids do when they can not argue effectively, call names and make personal attacks. He is obviously quite childish.</blockquote>It seems this particular topic and all the variants it produces is bringing out the arguments as well as the debates in us all.I just hope this thread doesn't get locked down as well as the others on this topic in Gameplay forum.

Rashaak

05-06-2008, 04:55 PM

<cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Blessed...not so sure about...however 1 in 3 mobs it triggers isn't bad, you can't blame the weapon for the mob knocking you to the ground or your spells not being refreshed. </blockquote>Its a shame the PvP test server is down. This is another reason why I say the blessed is almost useless. The the weapon triggers, you see a lighting strike. If I am fighting someone with my scout that has one of these weapons. As soon as I see the proc, I would Cheap Shot, Shield bash for the knockdown, then interrupt again if the 12 seconds is not up. I good PvPer would make sure that a person using a blessing weapon would never have a chance to take advantage to the buff.</blockquote>I 'm surprised I didn't see this comment......anyways.Changes like this, I do agree that Test PvP should be enabled, just like for the major changes to Coercer. Why they don't have test PvP anymore...i don't know. Maybe not enough participation. At any rate...you do realize both this imbues will be changed for PvP combat right? You do know that you can't base PvE stats, bonus's, or proc rates as a standard for PvP combat right?If not...then...um...yah...you really need to go play some on PvP

Rashaak

05-06-2008, 05:30 PM

Alright naysayers and doom and gloomers!You've spoken out against the aggro modifier on the Imbue weapons.So heres what I want to hear and see from you! I want actual logs from test server environment showing this aggro modifier is a detrimental effect that will hinder a good 75% of the player base.I want irrefutable proof!I don't want scenarios of 'what might occur in a group', because quite honestly a lot of those ALREADY occur in groups. I want to see it in action! So...upload your Fraps start recording your logs, and pull your excel spreadsheets and access databases showing that this particular effect is more of a hinderance to the majority.

evilgamer

05-06-2008, 05:41 PM

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>Alright naysayers and doom and gloomers!You've spoken out against the aggro modifier on the Imbue weapons.So heres what I want to hear and see from you! I want actual logs from test server environment showing this aggro modifier is a detrimental effect that will hinder a good 75% of the player base.I want irrefutable proof!I don't want scenarios of 'what might occur in a group', because quite honestly a lot of those ALREADY occur in groups. I want to see it in action! So...upload your Fraps start recording your logs, and pull your excel spreadsheets and access databases showing that this particular effect is more of a hinderance to the majority.</blockquote>Why?First of all I dont know how to do any of those things and frankly do not care enough to learn how, its a game to me not a data analysis class.Second of all, nobody dislikes the current version of GS, every MC weapon I see on the broker is imbued. Alot of people have voiced concern about the hate proc on the new GS. Once again why are we messing with something that nobody had a problem with in the first place.You yourself have already admitted that DR and itemization were the key problems, why are you so hard core on this GS change? What do you care if it has hate proc, as a WS the only thing you should care about is the weapon desirable to your customer base.Customer is always king in business, if 100% of players currently like the old GS, but only 85% of them like the new GS, that is a fail. Even if its virtual EQ 2 money.Also business is about perception as it is raw numbers, if raw numbers ruled we would all be driving the most efficient cars, living in the most efficient homes, etc etc.

Rashaak

05-06-2008, 05:57 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>Alright naysayers and doom and gloomers!You've spoken out against the aggro modifier on the Imbue weapons.So heres what I want to hear and see from you! I want actual logs from test server environment showing this aggro modifier is a detrimental effect that will hinder a good 75% of the player base.I want irrefutable proof!I don't want scenarios of 'what might occur in a group', because quite honestly a lot of those ALREADY occur in groups. I want to see it in action! So...upload your Fraps start recording your logs, and pull your excel spreadsheets and access databases showing that this particular effect is more of a hinderance to the majority.</blockquote>Why?First of all I dont know how to do any of those things and frankly do not care enough to learn how, its a game to me not a data analysis class.Second of all, nobody dislikes the current version of GS, every MC weapon I see on the broker is imbued. Alot of people have voiced concern about the hate proc on the new GS. Once again why are we messing with something that nobody had a problem with in the first place.You yourself have already admitted that DR and itemization were the key problems, why are you so hard core on this GS change? What do you care if it has hate proc, as a WS the only thing you should care about is the weapon desirable to your customer base.Customer is always king in business, if 100% of players currently like the old GS, but only 85% of them like the new GS, that is a fail. Even if its virtual EQ 2 money.</blockquote>Your arguements on this change being detrimental is the reason why. The fact you keep saying you'll go with non-imbued weapons fearing this will hurt your Bruiser, but haven't bothered to show anything to substantiate the claim. The fact that in the month you've been playing this game you still have no concept on good tanking tactics. The face that you've so adamantly been against this change without providing anything other than situational occurances that ALREADY occur in groups.I am a WS, but I became a WS not to 'make money' but to supply my class's with Weapons that are viable and will help my toons while out adventuring. A WS currently CAN create a customer base and make a decent living, however not by selling weapons. This change not only to GS but to the weapons themselves makes them a viable option at the low end of each tier. Tank class's like Crusaders would jump all over these. Zerkers too. Mage DPS will love the fact they can lower aggro WITH their weapon, allowing them to do more than just stand there with a pretty dagger cause it's got a good INT stat on it as they cast their spells, but also they now have an option to increase their damage with another imbue type. In the current system there is no reason for a Caster to imbue a weapon, because GS only proc's off of melee. Now Casters have two options available to them. This is a very good change to the GS and gives it more meaning than simply a DD proc. There are plenty of DD adorn's out there that do far better than GS so adding a aggro modifier was quite honestly a pretty ingenious thing to do. Also...I'm part of the player base, and a 'customer' too. I like the new GS over the old. So, it's not 100% of the player base that likes the old GS.

evilgamer

05-06-2008, 06:16 PM

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>Alright naysayers and doom and gloomers!You've spoken out against the aggro modifier on the Imbue weapons.So heres what I want to hear and see from you! I want actual logs from test server environment showing this aggro modifier is a detrimental effect that will hinder a good 75% of the player base.I want irrefutable proof!I don't want scenarios of 'what might occur in a group', because quite honestly a lot of those ALREADY occur in groups. I want to see it in action! So...upload your Fraps start recording your logs, and pull your excel spreadsheets and access databases showing that this particular effect is more of a hinderance to the majority.</blockquote>Why?First of all I dont know how to do any of those things and frankly do not care enough to learn how, its a game to me not a data analysis class.Second of all, nobody dislikes the current version of GS, every MC weapon I see on the broker is imbued. Alot of people have voiced concern about the hate proc on the new GS. Once again why are we messing with something that nobody had a problem with in the first place.You yourself have already admitted that DR and itemization were the key problems, why are you so hard core on this GS change? What do you care if it has hate proc, as a WS the only thing you should care about is the weapon desirable to your customer base.Customer is always king in business, if 100% of players currently like the old GS, but only 85% of them like the new GS, that is a fail. Even if its virtual EQ 2 money.</blockquote>Your arguements on this change being detrimental is the reason why. The fact you keep saying you'll go with non-imbued weapons fearing this will hurt your Bruiser, but haven't bothered to show anything to substantiate the claim. Um, exactly how am I supposed to do that, given the changes have not gone live yet? Me and numerous others have given scenarios where we feel this proc could actually be detrimental instead of productive but you continually dismiss them as "flukes of chance". Even if they are flukes, the fact is that with the current imbue there is no detrimental procs due to mob positioning, that alone makes the older GS better in mine and many others minds.The fact that in the month you've been playing this game you still have no concept on good tanking tactics.Have you grouped with me? I dont recalling you ever grouping with me. I played a SK for 3 years in EQ 1, at some of the highest levels of raiding in the game. I dont even know how you can make this comment without ever grouping with me. The face that you've so adamantly been against this change without providing anything other than situational occurances that ALREADY occur in groups. Um no they do not already occur, if I am currently tanking and lose aggro and the mob spins my current MC weapon will not proc a neg hate proc, its just a simple DD proc, exactly how I like it.I am a WS, but I became a WS not to 'make money' but to supply my class's with Weapons that are viable and will help my toons while out adventuring.Um isnt the point of a tradeskills is to get a profession that can help your adventuring and make you money so you can buy the crafted items that other tradeskillers make? Do you expect everyone to have an 80 WS, provisioner, woodworker, armor, etc? A WS currently CAN create a customer base and make a decent living, however not by selling weapons. What? Isnt the point of WS, you know making weapons that people want to use and buy?Also...I'm part of the player base, and a 'customer' too. I like the new GS over the old. So, it's not 100% of the player base that likes the old GS. No, but you were not complaining about it either, you may happen to like the new GS better, but if we took a vote most would prefer to just stay with the old proc.</blockquote>

Lasai

05-06-2008, 06:43 PM

Let me see if I can spell this out, EvilgamerLog in to your maintype /testcopywait a daylog onto Test Copy, buy one of my 20g crushers with the imbues, and actually test something.This is Test Feedback forum btw. For, surprsingly, test feedback from, like, testing.Then come back here with an informed opininion re TEST changes you have experienced TESTING on TEST server, instead of an uninformed, knee jerk reaction to something you don't really have a clue about.And stop speaking for people besides yourself. You are no more the voice of the people when it comes to weapons changes than you are when it comes to Bruiser issues.Repeating "if it isnt broke why fix it" over and over in multiple threads does not constitute informed debate.

Rashaak

05-06-2008, 06:48 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>Alright naysayers and doom and gloomers!You've spoken out against the aggro modifier on the Imbue weapons.So heres what I want to hear and see from you! I want actual logs from test server environment showing this aggro modifier is a detrimental effect that will hinder a good 75% of the player base.I want irrefutable proof!I don't want scenarios of 'what might occur in a group', because quite honestly a lot of those ALREADY occur in groups. I want to see it in action! So...upload your Fraps start recording your logs, and pull your excel spreadsheets and access databases showing that this particular effect is more of a hinderance to the majority.</blockquote>Why?First of all I dont know how to do any of those things and frankly do not care enough to learn how, its a game to me not a data analysis class.Second of all, nobody dislikes the current version of GS, every MC weapon I see on the broker is imbued. Alot of people have voiced concern about the hate proc on the new GS. Once again why are we messing with something that nobody had a problem with in the first place.You yourself have already admitted that DR and itemization were the key problems, why are you so hard core on this GS change? What do you care if it has hate proc, as a WS the only thing you should care about is the weapon desirable to your customer base.Customer is always king in business, if 100% of players currently like the old GS, but only 85% of them like the new GS, that is a fail. Even if its virtual EQ 2 money.</blockquote>Your arguements on this change being detrimental is the reason why. The fact you keep saying you'll go with non-imbued weapons fearing this will hurt your Bruiser, but haven't bothered to show anything to substantiate the claim. Um, exactly how am I supposed to do that, given the changes have not gone live yet? Me and numerous others have given scenarios where we feel this proc could actually be detrimental instead of productive but you continually dismiss them as "flukes of chance". Even if they are flukes, the fact is that with the current imbue there is no detrimental procs due to mob positioning, that alone makes the older GS better in mine and many others minds.Search is your friend<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=409278" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=409278</a>The fact that in the month you've been playing this game you still have no concept on good tanking tactics.Have you grouped with me? I dont recalling you ever grouping with me. I played a SK for 3 years in EQ 1, at some of the highest levels of raiding in the game. I dont even know how you can make this comment without ever grouping with me. EQ1 is not even on the same scale of EQ2 in any sense. Your EQ1 knowledge means JACK in this game son. It's two totally different games. From what I've seen of your posts though, I would stay as far away from you as possible, because your logic on tanking is very skewed and I don't have the patience that Domino has to deal with it. The face that you've so adamantly been against this change without providing anything other than situational occurances that ALREADY occur in groups. Um no they do not already occur, if I am currently tanking and lose aggro and the mob spins my current MC weapon will not proc a neg hate proc, its just a simple DD proc, exactly how I like it.Every situation given can happen already in a group, with or without a hate proc modifier. Your never gaurantee'd aggro in any group or raid. You have to know what your class is capable of doing. In the TS forums it was told to you i don't know how many times that the 'neg affect' proc'ing while the mobs back is turned is nominal and situational. You were given advise to counter that...but no...rather than except you may have to modify how you 'supposedly' tank. It's one thing to be stubborn, its another to ignorant. I am a WS, but I became a WS not to 'make money' but to supply my class's with Weapons that are viable and will help my toons while out adventuring.Um isnt the point of a tradeskills is to get a profession that can help your adventuring and make you money so you can buy the crafted items that other tradeskillers make? Do you expect everyone to have an 80 WS, provisioner, woodworker, armor, etc? The point of tradeskills is broad. Some do it to help their own toons. Some do it to help the guild. Some do it for wealth. Some do it simply because its a part of the game. Some only craft rather than adventuring finding it more fulfilling that way. The thing is...crafters need adventurer's...adventurers don't need crafters, so if you think crafting is the only and best way to make money, then again. You have no idea what your talking about. A WS currently CAN create a customer base and make a decent living, however not by selling weapons. What? Isnt the point of WS, you know making weapons that people want to use and buy?Precisely my point sonny boy! If you had bothered to read the Request from a Master Weaponsmith thread fully and completely prior to putting your two copper in you would obviously know that, and that was the biggest thing. Adorn's sell okay to 'maintain' the class, but the weapons are/were junk and were not viable nor consistant through the tiers, thus the reason for this change was done.Also...I'm part of the player base, and a 'customer' too. I like the new GS over the old. So, it's not 100% of the player base that likes the old GS. No, but you were not complaining about it either, you may happen to like the new GS better, but if we took a vote most would prefer to just stay with the old proc.How do you know? If you had looked at the threads concerning 'upcoming' changes, players requested a change to the GS BECAUSE it only worked for melee class's. Many players posted that they wanted to see many a different things done with imbues, adding attack speed, ca bonus, da bonus, ranged bonus etc. Your opinion that the majority would vote against it is just that. Your only seeing what you want to see, and that is people against it. There are many others that are for it and still others who don't care either way.</blockquote></blockquote>To sit there and say no one was complaining about it as your ONLY arguement to changing it back, then you really have nothing to stand on until you prove beyond a shadow of doubt an aggro modifier is detrimental to the majority of class's out there. If you can't show that...then your argument is moot, because haven't bothered to test it, and spent more time complaining about situational occurances that it 'might' not work in. It's apparant to me you still have a lot to learn about not only how aggro management works, how proper tanking tactics should be used, but also about knowing fully what your talking about before you start opening your mouth.

Youngone31

05-06-2008, 06:48 PM

<cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2dev.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/pick-up-groups/" target="_blank">http://eq2dev.wordpress.com/2008/05...pick-up-groups/</a>This is the reason for the now GS???? Are you kidding me??? If you want to teach people how to play, make a better tutorial. Do not change the imbues and force it on everyone. If I had a choice to make weapons with the 2 new imbues or the old imbue, I will take the old one any day of the week.

Rashaak

05-06-2008, 07:01 PM

Lasai

05-06-2008, 07:02 PM

<cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2dev.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/pick-up-groups/" target="_blank">http://eq2dev.wordpress.com/2008/05...pick-up-groups/</a>This is the reason for the now GS???? Are you kidding me??? If you want to teach people how to play, make a better tutorial. Do not change the imbues and force it on everyone. If I had a choice to make weapons with the 2 new imbues or the old imbue, I will take the old one any day of the week. </blockquote>Ouoted from last paragraph of the Blog entry linked above."Mastercrafted weapons are a reasonably popular choice at lower levels, and after this revamp improves their stats, they will probably be more so. If a reasonable proportion of people in lower level groups use weapons with this imbue effect (though there is an alternate choice available also) then tanks may get accustomed from a low level to having their group request that they pay more attention to proper positioning, and others in a group may get used to positioning themselves properly also. This was not the intention of changing the effect - we were just looking for ways to make it more useful, without being overpowered - but meeting tanks like this guy has made me wonder if it could work as a little gentle training as people level up using these effects. A halfling can hope, anyway!"Please read and comprehend the hilighted part.Pheep, you have to stop linking this as the CAUSE of the changes, as it is simply a commentary on changes already made in light of the experience Domino wrote about.The change was made and in the works prior to this blog entry and grouping experience, not as a result of it.

Razlath

05-06-2008, 07:18 PM

Well the end result is that most likely these changes *are* going to live. Very little has ever been pulled back once it hits test, and this is especially true when as much time and effort went into the update. Frankly in this particular case that is fine by me. If we have to take non-imbued weapons in order to get the changes that are coming down for the base weapon, then that is what it takes.For my Shadowknight I would be using the blessing anyway(once the cap is raised sufficiently to invalidate my epic) since the extra DPS from the +spell damage proc would be welcome in both solo and group situations. The same would be true of my Inquisitor, blessed for him all the way as long as bashy sticks are beating out WW wands now.On my Brigand I am torn between what I know to be statiscally true and Murphy's Law. I am worried about using this imbue and having it proc while I am using my frontal combat arts. If I decide not to use it because of this then that will be a personal perference, and I don't need to provide irrefuteable evidence for it (as it will be based on gut feelings about how things are working out). I could probably test all day long and not produce the situation where it really hurts me. However, the second the success of my group depends on aggro staying where it belongs and me using every attack I get, I would flip in front of the mob, and it would go off and that would be enough to put me over the top. I have a hard enough time keeping aggro off me without building it accidentally. No it wouldn't be "all the time", but I don't need to know that I wiped the group because of a proc on my weapon no matter how rare the occurance is. And yes I have had situations cut that fine. Those are some of the most fun times in the game, and are rarer than I would like to see them. Arguably there were would be even less of those situations because I spend more time behind the mob than in front of it. Like I said, I know statistically the weapons should provide a benefit, but statistaclly I shouldn't see my SKs armor proc a ward twice in a row when at full health and then fail to proc another ward as I slowly get ripped apart by a mob. Sometimes Murphy just hates on you, I prefer not to give him the chance when possible.If the changes to MC weapons can not be rolled forward without this update to GS, then let the update roll. If we could somehow get the old proc as well that would be ideal. Please note as some people are getting confused the old *proc* not the old weapons. No one has called to hold back the MC weapon update. Some have called for the GS proc to be reviewed, and perhaps even to have the old proc added as an option as well. The MC weapons are a vast improvement, and questions being raised about the GS proc in absolutely no way detract from the hard work that went into this update.I am NOT crying the sky is falling, I am merely saying that a very important choice is being taken away from the players. Until you can tell me how I can get the GS proc without the hate mod and still be able to enhance that weapon just as much as being imbued allows then there are in fact choices being removed. Saying you can fix it with an adorn is unfair because the imbued weapon could be adornned as well.

Lasai

05-06-2008, 07:29 PM

Razlath said "The same would be true of my Inquisitor, blessed for him all the way as long as bashy sticks are beating out WW wands now"Don't know if you have seen any, new base Mahogany Wands are 50 wis 50 int 90 health and power, 75.4 DR 5 sec delay.the old clicky wands are gone.depending on playstyle the new wands aren't bad at all.As far as ripping aggro on one frontal hit, I can't help but wonder if you have factored in your tank using the same imbue. Given similar proc rates for both chars, given the tank is adding additional threat at about the same rate as you are dumping threat by position I wonder if one mistep would actually rip aggro totally. That remains to be seen I guess, doing a /who all on Testcopy right now gives me 4 coercers and 3 newbs in Darklight woods, hardly a good group test environment.I agree this will go live without extensive group testing, as that tends to be the nature of the test servers, unfortunately.

Rashaak

05-06-2008, 07:38 PM

<cite>Dartak@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well the end result is that most likely these changes *are* going to live. Very little has ever been pulled back once it hits test, and this is especially true when as much time and effort went into the update. Frankly in this particular case that is fine by me. If we have to take non-imbued weapons in order to get the changes that are coming down for the base weapon, then that is what it takes.For my Shadowknight I would be using the blessing anyway(once the cap is raised sufficiently to invalidate my epic) since the extra DPS from the +spell damage proc would be welcome in both solo and group situations. The same would be true of my Inquisitor, blessed for him all the way as long as bashy sticks are beating out WW wands now.On my Brigand I am torn between what I know to be statiscally true and Murphy's Law. I am worried about using this imbue and having it proc while I am using my frontal combat arts. If I decide not to use it because of this then that will be a personal perference, and I don't need to provide irrefuteable evidence for it (as it will be based on gut feelings about how things are working out). I could probably test all day long and not produce the situation where it really hurts me. However, the second the success of my group depends on aggro staying where it belongs and me using every attack I get, I would flip in front of the mob, and it would go off and that would be enough to put me over the top. I have a hard enough time keeping aggro off me without building it accidentally. No it wouldn't be "all the time", but I don't need to know that I wiped the group because of a proc on my weapon no matter how rare the occurance is. And yes I have had situations cut that fine. Those are some of the most fun times in the game, and are rarer than I would like to see them. Arguably there were would be even less of those situations because I spend more time behind the mob than in front of it. Like I said, I know statistically the weapons should provide a benefit, but statistaclly I shouldn't see my SKs armor proc a ward twice in a row when at full health and then fail to proc another ward as I slowly get ripped apart by a mob. Sometimes Murphy just hates on you, I prefer not to give him the chance when possible.You do realize that this attack takes less than a second to get off right? Even from moving from the backside of the mob to the front using the ability then getting back behind the mob. Also you do realize that if this should proc at that time yes your aggro would go up, but since it occurs a minimum of 3 times per proc, that the 1 proc raising your aggro would be negated by the 2 that are deaggroing right? Not to mention if your any good with your Brigand you would be deaggroing yourself after every 4th attack, so...your aggro should be well lower than the tanks...If the changes to MC weapons can not be rolled forward without this update to GS, then let the update roll. If we could somehow get the old proc as well that would be ideal. Please note as some people are getting confused the old *proc* not the old weapons. No one has called to hold back the MC weapon update. Some have called for the GS proc to be reviewed, and perhaps even to have the old proc added as an option as well. The MC weapons are a vast improvement, and questions being raised about the GS proc in absolutely no way detract from the hard work that went into this update.I am NOT crying the sky is falling, I am merely saying that a very important choice is being taken away from the players. Until you can tell me how I can get the GS proc without the hate mod and still be able to enhance that weapon just as much as being imbued allows then there are in fact choices being removed. Saying you can fix it with an adorn is unfair because the imbued weapon could be adornned as well.</blockquote>erm...nothing beings taken away, but something is definately being added to the players.

evilgamer

05-06-2008, 07:45 PM

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let me see if I can spell this out, EvilgamerLog in to your maintype /testcopywait a daylog onto Test Copy, buy one of my 20g crushers with the imbues, and actually test something.I just may do this, but 20g for a weapon I can only use on the test server?This is Test Feedback forum btw. For, surprsingly, test feedback from, like, testing.Then come back here with an informed opininion re TEST changes you have experienced TESTING on TEST server, instead of an uninformed, knee jerk reaction to something you don't really have a clue about.And stop speaking for people besides yourself. You are no more the voice of the people when it comes to weapons changes than you are when it comes to Bruiser issues.Lol where did I claim to be the "voice of the people", I simply stated an opinion, so stop with the strawmans.Repeating "if it isnt broke why fix it" over and over in multiple threads does not constitute informed debate.Lol, I gave reason why I think it should not be changed, I can not help it if you ignore them.If find your above comments hilarious giving that there are currently 3 threads on this forum that I did not start with numerou posters voicing the same concerns I have, yet you feel compelled to act like I am leading some kind of one man revolt. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>

Rashaak

05-06-2008, 07:50 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote>Let me see if I can spell this out, EvilgamerLog in to your maintype /testcopywait a daylog onto Test Copy, buy one of my 20g crushers with the imbues, and actually test something.I just may do this, but 20g for a weapon I can only use on the test server?It's a Test Copy server...not your actual toon. So what ever money lost on Test Copy will not be lost on your regular server toon. Also, once the update is done...most test copy characters will be deleted. Here's another instance where you should learn to think before you speak. This is Test Feedback forum btw. For, surprsingly, test feedback from, like, testing.Then come back here with an informed opininion re TEST changes you have experienced TESTING on TEST server, instead of an uninformed, knee jerk reaction to something you don't really have a clue about.And stop speaking for people besides yourself. You are no more the voice of the people when it comes to weapons changes than you are when it comes to Bruiser issues.Lol where did I claim to be the "voice of the people", I simply stated an opinion, so stop with the strawmans.Repeating "if it isnt broke why fix it" over and over in multiple threads does not constitute informed debate.Lol, I gave reason why I think it should not be changed, I can not help it if you ignore them.If find your above comments hilarious giving that there are currently 3 threads on this forum that I did not start with numerou posters voicing the same concerns I have, yet you feel compelled to act like I am leading some kind of one man revolt. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote></blockquote>It's not you saying this right here?No, but you were not complaining about it either, you may happen to like the new GS better, but if we took a vote most would prefer to just stay with the old proc.Your are trying to speak for the majority as you see it. There are many for and against, just like with any change...

evilgamer

05-06-2008, 07:58 PM

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>Alright naysayers and doom and gloomers!You've spoken out against the aggro modifier on the Imbue weapons.So heres what I want to hear and see from you! I want actual logs from test server environment showing this aggro modifier is a detrimental effect that will hinder a good 75% of the player base.I want irrefutable proof!I don't want scenarios of 'what might occur in a group', because quite honestly a lot of those ALREADY occur in groups. I want to see it in action! So...upload your Fraps start recording your logs, and pull your excel spreadsheets and access databases showing that this particular effect is more of a hinderance to the majority.</blockquote>Why?First of all I dont know how to do any of those things and frankly do not care enough to learn how, its a game to me not a data analysis class.Second of all, nobody dislikes the current version of GS, every MC weapon I see on the broker is imbued. Alot of people have voiced concern about the hate proc on the new GS. Once again why are we messing with something that nobody had a problem with in the first place.You yourself have already admitted that DR and itemization were the key problems, why are you so hard core on this GS change? What do you care if it has hate proc, as a WS the only thing you should care about is the weapon desirable to your customer base.Customer is always king in business, if 100% of players currently like the old GS, but only 85% of them like the new GS, that is a fail. Even if its virtual EQ 2 money.</blockquote>Your arguements on this change being detrimental is the reason why. The fact you keep saying you'll go with non-imbued weapons fearing this will hurt your Bruiser, but haven't bothered to show anything to substantiate the claim. Um, exactly how am I supposed to do that, given the changes have not gone live yet? Me and numerous others have given scenarios where we feel this proc could actually be detrimental instead of productive but you continually dismiss them as "flukes of chance". Even if they are flukes, the fact is that with the current imbue there is no detrimental procs due to mob positioning, that alone makes the older GS better in mine and many others minds.Search is your friend<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=409278" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=409278</a>The fact that in the month you've been playing this game you still have no concept on good tanking tactics.Have you grouped with me? I dont recalling you ever grouping with me. I played a SK for 3 years in EQ 1, at some of the highest levels of raiding in the game. I dont even know how you can make this comment without ever grouping with me. EQ1 is not even on the same scale of EQ2 in any sense. Your EQ1 knowledge means JACK in this game son. It's two totally different games. From what I've seen of your posts though, I would stay as far away from you as possible, because your logic on tanking is very skewed and I don't have the patience that Domino has to deal with it. Good for you, I could care less, I have tanked many of groups, even been asked to groups originally to just DPS and then asked to step up when the original tank was not doing so well. I personally do not care what your opinions of my tanking are, I have complete confident of my rep on my server as a tank and have never really had anyone complain about my tanking, in fact I have actually gotten many repeat tells from peeps to come tank for their groups.The face that you've so adamantly been against this change without providing anything other than situational occurances that ALREADY occur in groups. Um no they do not already occur, if I am currently tanking and lose aggro and the mob spins my current MC weapon will not proc a neg hate proc, its just a simple DD proc, exactly how I like it.Every situation given can happen already in a group, with or without a hate proc modifier. Your never gaurantee'd aggro in any group or raid. You have to know what your class is capable of doing. In the TS forums it was told to you i don't know how many times that the 'neg affect' proc'ing while the mobs back is turned is nominal and situational. You were given advise to counter that...but no...rather than except you may have to modify how you 'supposedly' tank. It's one thing to be stubborn, its another to ignorant. What are you even talking about? Let me break it down nice and simple for you.Old weapon: Mob spins due to overnuking caster, MC weapons procs say 200 DD, = good more hate for me.New weapon: Mob spins due to overnuking caster, MC procs -200 hate due to postional proc and 200 dd proc = break even on hate.I would have been better off with the old weapon plain and simple.I am a WS, but I became a WS not to 'make money' but to supply my class's with Weapons that are viable and will help my toons while out adventuring.Um isnt the point of a tradeskills is to get a profession that can help your adventuring and make you money so you can buy the crafted items that other tradeskillers make? Do you expect everyone to have an 80 WS, provisioner, woodworker, armor, etc? The point of tradeskills is broad. Some do it to help their own toons. Some do it to help the guild. Some do it for wealth. Some do it simply because its a part of the game. Some only craft rather than adventuring finding it more fulfilling that way. The thing is...crafters need adventurer's...adventurers don't need crafters, so if you think crafting is the only and best way to make money, then again. You have no idea what your talking about.Straman, never once said that. Just said it was a way to make money, never "the best and only way" A WS currently CAN create a customer base and make a decent living, however not by selling weapons. What? Isnt the point of WS, you know making weapons that people want to use and buy?Precisely my point sonny boy! If you had bothered to read the Request from a Master Weaponsmith thread fully and completely prior to putting your two copper in you would obviously know that, and that was the biggest thing. Adorn's sell okay to 'maintain' the class, but the weapons are/were junk and were not viable nor consistant through the tiers, thus the reason for this change was done.I did read that thread and never saw anyone complain about the current GS proc. Which is my point.Also...I'm part of the player base, and a 'customer' too. I like the new GS over the old. So, it's not 100% of the player base that likes the old GS. No, but you were not complaining about it either, you may happen to like the new GS better, but if we took a vote most would prefer to just stay with the old proc.How do you know? If you had looked at the threads concerning 'upcoming' changes, players requested a change to the GS BECAUSE it only worked for melee class's. Many players posted that they wanted to see many a different things done with imbues, adding attack speed, ca bonus, da bonus, ranged bonus etc. Your opinion that the majority would vote against it is just that. Your only seeing what you want to see, and that is people against it. There are many others that are for it and still others who don't care either way.You are correct I dont know for sure, but i have a strong feeling, given that there are now 3 current threads complaining about the new proc, that more woudl against then for.I have never once seen a complaint about GS in its current form, which pretty much tells me nothing was wrong with it.</blockquote></blockquote>To sit there and say no one was complaining about it as your ONLY arguement to changing it back, then you really have nothing to stand on until you prove beyond a shadow of doubt an aggro modifier is detrimental to the majority of class's out there. If you can't show that...then your argument is moot, because haven't bothered to test it, and spent more time complaining about situational occurances that it 'might' not work in. It's apparant to me you still have a lot to learn about not only how aggro management works, how proper tanking tactics should be used, but also about knowing fully what your talking about before you start opening your mouth.</blockquote>

Lasai

05-06-2008, 08:02 PM

Yah Evilgamer, 20g for a T8 weapon you can only use on test, with money you can only use on test, for a char you can only use on test.That's how testcopy works. I've spent 47 plat on TestCopy buying jacked up mahogany to provide weapons for people to actually test with. It isnt real plat, it is copied plat.I'm laughing thinking of the char who jacked up mahogany to 14plat... any profit made will be gone when testcopy goes poof. Silly people.

evilgamer

05-06-2008, 08:02 PM

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>It's not you saying this right here?No, but you were not complaining about it either, you may happen to like the new GS better, but if we took a vote most would prefer to just stay with the old proc.Your are trying to speak for the majority as you see it. There are many for and against, just like with any change...</blockquote>I mis-wrote that sentence, what I meant to say was that I would bet that if we took a vote most would vote to just keep GS as as it is.I could be wrong, but I have a serious hunch that most will would just prefer the old GS.

Rashaak

05-06-2008, 08:07 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>It's not you saying this right here?No, but you were not complaining about it either, you may happen to like the new GS better, but if we took a vote most would prefer to just stay with the old proc.Your are trying to speak for the majority as you see it. There are many for and against, just like with any change...</blockquote>I mis-wrote that sentence, what I meant to say was that I would bet that if we took a vote most would vote to just keep GS as as it is.I could be wrong, but I have a serious hunch that most will would just prefer the old GS.</blockquote>SURE! Mis-wrote it...got it! That must be like Clemens mis-remembering or something... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />do I need to AGAIN go get more 'quotes' from you? /sigh

evilgamer

05-06-2008, 08:14 PM

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>To sit there and say no one was complaining about it as your ONLY arguement to changing it back, then you really have nothing to stand on until you prove beyond a shadow of doubt an aggro modifier is detrimental to the majority of class's out there. Why do I have to "prove" anything, you are the one who is claiming that this proc is better then the old proc. The burden of proof is on you.My argument was this: Nobody complained about the old proc, many are complaining about the new proc, why again are we fixing something that nobody complained about for a change that *might* be better? If you can't show that...then your argument is moot, because haven't bothered to test it, and spent more time complaining about situational occurances that it 'might' not work in. My proof is that with the old proc there was no change of this "situational occurance" from evening happening. Quite honestly I think Domino had a bad experiance with a horrible tank and now thinks this proc is going to "train" people to tank correctly. Nothing really to do with the needs of WS. I seriously doubt this is going to "train" anyone to do anything either except buy non-imbued weapons that before they woudl have bought imbued.It's apparant to me you still have a lot to learn about not only how aggro management works, how proper tanking tactics should be used, but also about knowing fully what your talking about before you start opening your mouth.Like I said I have never had a single problem tanking for the groups I have been in. Apparantly you think that because I disagree with you that I must be completely cluelss, never mind that many other tanks and other players have came here and expressed the exact same sentiment, I guess we are all just clueless and you know the be all end all of EQ 2 <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>

evilgamer

05-06-2008, 08:19 PM

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>SURE! Mis-wrote it...got it! That must be like Clemens mis-remembering or something... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> do I need to AGAIN go get more 'quotes' from you? /sigh</blockquote>Well you can believe whatever you want to believe but the fact is that I did write that quite hastily and then had to go do something, so I didnt really reveiw it all that good.My point is that I would like to see a poll at what the masses really think about these new GS procs. If the majoirty like it, then so be it, I could accept that. But I have this sneaky feeling that you and a few other seem to think you know better then the rest of us "unwashed masses" and the rest of us are to "clueless" as to know what is good for us. Nothing more then plain and simple elitism.

Ahlana

05-06-2008, 08:31 PM

Could it be an ingame poll that must be selected before continuing that way assuring that everyone that currently plays votes? Other wise you have the forums and well not many people actually come here. Probably about 10-15% of the game's population (if that). Personally I am eagerly awaiting these weapons. But I still think the effects should be two different imbues and not combined based on positions.

denmom

05-06-2008, 09:14 PM

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2dev.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/pick-up-groups/" target="_blank">http://eq2dev.wordpress.com/2008/05...pick-up-groups/</a>This is the reason for the now GS???? Are you kidding me??? If you want to teach people how to play, make a better tutorial. Do not change the imbues and force it on everyone. If I had a choice to make weapons with the 2 new imbues or the old imbue, I will take the old one any day of the week. </blockquote>Ouoted from last paragraph of the Blog entry linked above."Mastercrafted weapons are a reasonably popular choice at lower levels, and after this revamp improves their stats, they will probably be more so. If a reasonable proportion of people in lower level groups use weapons with this imbue effect (though there is an alternate choice available also) then tanks may get accustomed from a low level to having their group request that they pay more attention to proper positioning, and others in a group may get used to positioning themselves properly also. This was not the intention of changing the effect - we were just looking for ways to make it more useful, without being overpowered - but meeting tanks like this guy has made me wonder if it could work as a little gentle training as people level up using these effects. A halfling can hope, anyway!"Please read and comprehend the hilighted part.Pheep, you have to stop linking this as the CAUSE of the changes, as it is simply a commentary on changes already made in light of the experience Domino wrote about.The change was made and in the works prior to this blog entry and grouping experience, not as a result of it.</blockquote>Ah, I was misinformed.And will do so, thank you for the correction, Lasai.You have to admit, it did seem to be hand in hand. I'll adjust my other posts.EDIT: I went thru and adjusted the other posts that I had the link in. Thank you again.

Theren

05-06-2008, 10:38 PM

This is an easy issue to resolve...if you don't like the proc tell the smith making it not to imbue it and then just buy an adornment. The procs are a big plus as they add something new. This is not going to be a game ending ordeal, it will take time for people to get used to it. So be patient and tell your tanks to turn the mobs.

Rashaak

05-06-2008, 11:23 PM

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>SURE! Mis-wrote it...got it! That must be like Clemens mis-remembering or something... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> do I need to AGAIN go get more 'quotes' from you? /sigh</blockquote>Well you can believe whatever you want to believe but the fact is that I did write that quite hastily and then had to go do something, so I didnt really reveiw it all that good.My point is that I would like to see a poll at what the masses really think about these new GS procs. If the majoirty like it, then so be it, I could accept that. But I have this sneaky feeling that you and a few other seem to think you know better then the rest of us "unwashed masses" and the rest of us are to "clueless" as to know what is good for us. Nothing more then plain and simple elitism.</blockquote>In conversations like this, one should be careful of his wording because it could be taken out of context by others. Of course...you know this first hand right? Since...you did take Domino's blog entry out of context as many others have, and have needed to be corrected...As for an in-game poll for something like this? pfft Won't happen. Theres only ever been one in-game poll and that was for whether or not they should incorporate Exchange Servers or not...and that champ was some 3 years ago...

Captain_Xpendab

05-07-2008, 08:31 AM

<cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Captain_Xpendable wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I am wondering how going from a proc that pretty much everyone wanted to one that a few may not is a boost, but that is just me.</blockquote>Good point, This could be viewed as a nerf to anyone who has frontal only CA's. Before this gleaming strike was just some nice extra damage, after this goes live many will probably have to give up that damage because it's not worth not being able to use their frontals.And no, adornments don't replace imbues because you can adorn imbued weapons, you still lose out. Fortunately, I've been able to purchase all the MC weapons with the current imbue I'm going to need for all tiers, I won't have to worry about this until after the level cap is raised and I get to t9 (somewhere around 2025). Unfortunately, after this goes live no one else will have this option once the old imbues disappear from the market.</blockquote>/boggle. Please, take an actual look at the new DR and Delays and tell me you are going to keep the old stuff.On normal test I have tossed/muted every old MC weapon I had. Non Imbued MC at most levels is better than old world legendary. For as long as I have played this game people have ignored the gleaming Proc in favor of DR and Delay on loot weapons. They have ignored the stat bonus on MC in favor of DR and Delay on loot weapons.Now, we have improved DR and Delay on MC weapons, and people are having a cow about a proc that was never quite good enough to beat DR and Delay.Ok, Im speechless now.carry on.</blockquote>Alright, lets look at the level 72 stats on the test server broker and see if a new non-imbued weapon is better than the old imbued.I go with Falchions for the high STR stats.Old imbued weapon with vampiric handle adornment.54-217 damage/4.0 sec delay. For illustration purposes we'll use the max damage.4.0 delay means 15 swings per minute (60/4= 15)15 swings x 217 = 3255 damage per minuteVampiric handle is 229 damage x 2 times per minute = 458gleaming strike is 264-491 damage x 1.8 times per minute (let's see what minimum damage does)264x1.8=4753255 + 458 + 475 = 4188 damage per minute. Divide that by 60 and you get 69.8 dps.New non-imbued weapon currently on test with vampiric handle adornment24-97 damage/1.6 sec delay. Again, max damage for illustration1.6 delay means 37.5 swings per minute (60/1.6 = 37.5)37.5 swings x 97 = 3637.5 damage per minuteVampiric handle is 229 damage x 2 times per minute = 4583637.5 + 458 = 4095.5 damage per minute. Divide that by 60 and you get 68.25 dps.Still boggled that I'm choosing the old imbued weapon over the new non-imbued weapon?<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>So yes...adornment can replace imbues, and I hope someday the imbue is done away with...</blockquote>Not really looking like adornments are replacing imbues here, given that I used the minimum that gleaming strike hits for, and do you really think imbues are going away when they just went to the trouble of creating new ones?

Youngone31

05-07-2008, 11:48 AM

I do not think anyone here is complaining about the stats on the weapons. What people are getting angry over is the change to GS. No whats to do away with imbues. Crafters had to fight just to keep them in game. Some people want the GS not have any additional effect while others do. I would prefer to leave GS as magical damage only and if people want additional effects on the weapon, find an adornment.I still believe that this addition effect was added for personal reasons. The blog entry was made after the change to GS but I still tink personal reasons still came into play.Some of the crafters have other reasons why they want the imbue changed. $$$

Rashaak

05-07-2008, 12:07 PM

<cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do not think anyone here is complaining about the stats on the weapons. What people are getting angry over is the change to GS. No whats to do away with imbues. Crafters had to fight just to keep them in game. Some people want the GS not have any additional effect while others do. Not all crafters were fighting to keep 'em. They should of been done away with when EoF came out. I would prefer to leave GS as magical damage only and if people want additional effects on the weapon, find an adornment.I still believe that this addition effect was added for personal reasons. The blog entry was made after the change to GS but I still tink personal reasons still came into play.Some of the crafters have other reasons why they want the imbue changed. $$$</blockquote>And what 'personal' reason would that be? Theres no hidden agenda here people. No conspiracy. She was looking for ways to make these weapons more viable, this was one of 'em.

Rashaak

05-07-2008, 12:19 PM

<cite>Captain_Xpendable wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Captain_Xpendable wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I am wondering how going from a proc that pretty much everyone wanted to one that a few may not is a boost, but that is just me.</blockquote>Good point, This could be viewed as a nerf to anyone who has frontal only CA's. Before this gleaming strike was just some nice extra damage, after this goes live many will probably have to give up that damage because it's not worth not being able to use their frontals.And no, adornments don't replace imbues because you can adorn imbued weapons, you still lose out. Fortunately, I've been able to purchase all the MC weapons with the current imbue I'm going to need for all tiers, I won't have to worry about this until after the level cap is raised and I get to t9 (somewhere around 2025). Unfortunately, after this goes live no one else will have this option once the old imbues disappear from the market.</blockquote>/boggle. Please, take an actual look at the new DR and Delays and tell me you are going to keep the old stuff.On normal test I have tossed/muted every old MC weapon I had. Non Imbued MC at most levels is better than old world legendary. For as long as I have played this game people have ignored the gleaming Proc in favor of DR and Delay on loot weapons. They have ignored the stat bonus on MC in favor of DR and Delay on loot weapons.Now, we have improved DR and Delay on MC weapons, and people are having a cow about a proc that was never quite good enough to beat DR and Delay.Ok, Im speechless now.carry on.</blockquote>Alright, lets look at the level 72 stats on the test server broker and see if a new non-imbued weapon is better than the old imbued.I go with Falchions for the high STR stats.Old imbued weapon with vampiric handle adornment.54-217 damage/4.0 sec delay. For illustration purposes we'll use the max damage.4.0 delay means 15 swings per minute (60/4= 15)15 swings x 217 = 3255 damage per minuteVampiric handle is 229 damage x 2 times per minute = 458gleaming strike is 264-491 damage x 1.8 times per minute (let's see what minimum damage does)264x1.8=4753255 + 458 + 475 = 4188 damage per minute. Divide that by 60 and you get 69.8 dps.New non-imbued weapon currently on test with vampiric handle adornment24-97 damage/1.6 sec delay. Again, max damage for illustration1.6 delay means 37.5 swings per minute (60/1.6 = 37.5)37.5 swings x 97 = 3637.5 damage per minuteVampiric handle is 229 damage x 2 times per minute = 4583637.5 + 458 = 4095.5 damage per minute. Divide that by 60 and you get 68.25 dps.Still boggled that I'm choosing the old imbued weapon over the new non-imbued weapon?You forgot to add in NEW IMBUE weapon as well. You are not giving a fair comparison.24-97 damage/1.6 sec delay. Again, max damage for illustration1.6 delay means 37.5 swings per minute (60/1.6 = 37.5)37.5 swings x 97 = 3637.5 damage per minuteVampiric handle is 229 damage x 2 times per minute = 458inflicts 281-521 magic damage on target. 1.6 times per min.(minimum damage from your above illustration) 281x1.6=505.83637.5 + 458 + 505.8 = 4601.3 damage per minute. Divide that by 60 and you get 76.69 dps.You just shorted yourself 8 points of DPS out of fear of an aggro proc? *two thumbs up to you*Seeing's how if this proc's you either gain or loose at most 1440 aggro per min depending on your position. t8 tanks single target adept 1 taunt does more in aggro than that.You just short changed yourself 8 points of DPS and the ability to lower or raise your hate position by 1 position out of a 1% chance this proc's at the inappropriate time and apparantly don't have the ability to remember to use your de-aggro buffs if this were to occur. Good for you man! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>So yes...adornment can replace imbues, and I hope someday the imbue is done away with...</blockquote>Not really looking like adornments are replacing imbues here, given that I used the minimum that gleaming strike hits for, and do you really think imbues are going away when they just went to the trouble of creating new ones?</blockquote>They will someday go away I hope, because they've caused nothing but problems since being left in after EoF.

Sir Longsword

05-07-2008, 12:46 PM

The +/- hate should have been just split up to make another imbue for a total of 3. That would have increased the number of recipes and everyone would be happy.

Rashaak

05-07-2008, 01:10 PM

<cite>Sir Longsword wrote:</cite><blockquote>The +/- hate should have been just split up to make another imbue for a total of 3. That would have increased the number of recipes and everyone would be happy.</blockquote>I disagree...With this update there will be a total of 150 handcrafted recipes, 150 mastercrafted for WS and 20 handcrafted and 20 mastercrafted for WW in regards to weapons per tier. This means that for the WS, they are now on par with a Jeweler. Currently the total of weapon recipes when adding WS and WW weapons together equals approximatly 110. Thats for two crafts that can make weapons! This is a major upgrade in recipe count for both crafts as is. (not including throwing weapons)Quite honestly this change is the best thing to happen to either a WW or WS in about 3 years, and even though some don't like the +/- aggro there are many others that do like it.

evilgamer

05-07-2008, 01:27 PM

edit

evilgamer

05-07-2008, 01:34 PM

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>You just short changed yourself 8 points of DPS and the ability to lower or raise your hate position by 1 position out of a 1% chance this proc's at the inappropriate time and apparantly don't have the ability to remember to use your de-aggro buffs if this were to occur. Good for you man! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote></blockquote>Where do you get this "1% chance to proc at the inappropriate time" number.How can you even calculate the number of times a mob will not be facing the right directions in a p/u group, I have seen p/u groups where aggro is bouncing all over the place and i have seen p/u group where it pretty much stays where it should.I know in my tanking adventures on my bruiser I have had trouble taunting mobs off over nuking casters and on large pulls as bruisers only get a single target and encounter taunt and on 1 aoe.Another thing is that now GS will proc on spells, so now caster will have to postition themselves to the side or rear on content in the past that never required this.Glad I quit playing my bruiser, I can just see all the whining now if the tank doesnt properly position the mob perfectly at all times. As if very low raid desirablity wasnt already reason enough to not bother leveling a tank.

Youngone31

05-07-2008, 01:34 PM

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do not think anyone here is complaining about the stats on the weapons. What people are getting angry over is the change to GS. No whats to do away with imbues. Crafters had to fight just to keep them in game. Some people want the GS not have any additional effect while others do. Not all crafters were fighting to keep 'em. They should of been done away with when EoF came out. I would prefer to leave GS as magical damage only and if people want additional effects on the weapon, find an adornment.I still believe that this addition effect was added for personal reasons. The blog entry was made after the change to GS but I still tink personal reasons still came into play.Some of the crafters have other reasons why they want the imbue changed. $$$</blockquote>And what 'personal' reason would that be? Theres no hidden agenda here people. No conspiracy. She was looking for ways to make these weapons more viable, this was one of 'em. </blockquote>If you think that imbues should have been done away with when EoF, why do you care if GS remains the same or changes???I did not mention hidden agenda for the imbue being changed, When people do things, sometimes they put their personal feelings in it. They may not do it all the time, but they do it some of the times. Its the way of the world.

Figment_

05-07-2008, 01:44 PM

<cite>Sir Longsword wrote:</cite><blockquote>The +/- hate should have been just split up to make another imbue for a total of 3. That would have increased the number of recipes and everyone would be happy.</blockquote>No, someone would come up with some reason to not like that i'm sure. Off the top of my head.. "I play a (insert tank here), but sometimes I don't tank for a group. I dont want this aggro proc to go off when I am just DPS-ing, because I'm in offensive stance and that would be a drain on the healers, but I dont want to shell out for a second set of weapons each level! Rawr change it so both procs are on the same weapon!" Any change is going to have its detractors. Some people just cannot adapt well, or cannot see the benefits, or think they will outweigh the detriments. My opinion is that these will help more than hinder, but only if people use the game mechanics as they have been set up for most effective gameplay. The people that will not be able do accomplish this are the same people who will not buy one of each weapon type they use to train the skills. Just like the casters that don't let themselves get beaten on by greys to level up defense get killed more often, or that priest who doesnt level up their casting skills gets more resists on debuffs. The people that cannot be arsed to turn a mob will get more aggro from their team, unless the team adjusts to sweeping around the mob for 'proper' placement before letting loose. Tanks that cannot turn the mob for some reason or an other should inform their groupmates, who should be able to adapt as well.

Prrasha

05-07-2008, 02:01 PM

<cite>Rashaak wrote (in orange):</cite><blockquote><cite>Captain_Xpendable wrote:</cite><blockquote>New non-imbued weapon currently on test with vampiric handle adornment24-97 damage/1.6 sec delay. Again, max damage for illustration1.6 delay means 37.5 swings per minute (60/1.6 = 37.5)37.5 swings x 97 = 3637.5 damage per minuteVampiric handle is 229 damage x 2 times per minute = 4583637.5 + 458 = 4095.5 damage per minute. Divide that by 60 and you get 68.25 dps.Still boggled that I'm choosing the old imbued weapon over the new non-imbued weapon?You forgot to add in NEW IMBUE weapon as well. You are not giving a fair comparison.24-97 damage/1.6 sec delay. Again, max damage for illustration1.6 delay means 37.5 swings per minute (60/1.6 = 37.5)37.5 swings x 97 = 3637.5 damage per minuteVampiric handle is 229 damage x 2 times per minute = 458inflicts 281-521 magic damage on target. 1.6 times per min.(minimum damage from your above illustration) 281x1.6=505.83637.5 + 458 + 505.8 = 4601.3 damage per minute. Divide that by 60 and you get 76.69 dps.You just shorted yourself 8 points of DPS out of fear of an aggro proc? *two thumbs up to you*Seeing's how if this proc's you either gain or loose at most 1440 aggro per min depending on your position. t8 tanks single target adept 1 taunt does more in aggro than that.You just short changed yourself 8 points of DPS and the ability to lower or raise your hate position by 1 position out of a 1% chance this proc's at the inappropriate time and apparantly don't have the ability to remember to use your de-aggro buffs if this were to occur. Good for you man! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote></blockquote>...he shorted himself 8-14 DPS over fear of a 24 threat-per-second (TPS) aggro proc.Show me a group that can control aggro to within 10-16 DPS in Tier 8, and I'll show you the most cunningly-coded bot program evar.Also, that's only a 10-16 TPS penalty if the mob is never facing the tank/always facing the DPS. It's a wash if it faces the right way 50% of the time, and a 10-16 TPS benefit if it's always facing the right way when the weapons proc. Though that's doubled to a parse-crushing 20-32 TPS if the leading DPSer and the tank both have a Gleaming Strike weapon.(And yes, it's higher with combat art usage and haste, but I'm going with the based-on-unhasted-autoattack-only numbers as given. 100% combat art haste, 100% recovery-speed haste, +200 haste modifier, 100% hit rate, and perfect CA timing can ratchet this up by a factor of 4.25x to 85-136 TPS ... but now you're talking about a group of even-more-perfectly-coded bots, fighting grey mobs, where the leading DPSer is probably pushing 4000-5000 DPS outside of a raid setting.)

Rashaak

05-07-2008, 02:04 PM

<cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do not think anyone here is complaining about the stats on the weapons. What people are getting angry over is the change to GS. No whats to do away with imbues. Crafters had to fight just to keep them in game. Some people want the GS not have any additional effect while others do. Not all crafters were fighting to keep 'em. They should of been done away with when EoF came out. I would prefer to leave GS as magical damage only and if people want additional effects on the weapon, find an adornment.I still believe that this addition effect was added for personal reasons. The blog entry was made after the change to GS but I still tink personal reasons still came into play.Some of the crafters have other reasons why they want the imbue changed. $$$</blockquote>And what 'personal' reason would that be? Theres no hidden agenda here people. No conspiracy. She was looking for ways to make these weapons more viable, this was one of 'em. </blockquote>If you think that imbues should have been done away with when EoF, why do you care if GS remains the same or changes???I did not mention hidden agenda for the imbue being changed, When people do things, sometimes they put their personal feelings in it. They may not do it all the time, but they do it some of the times. Its the way of the world.</blockquote>My personal views of the imbue don't matter. The fact is...it is in the game and this change will better the overall experience in the game. This reason alone is what trump's my personal view and opinion in regards to imbue being in the game.You didn't say 'hidden agenda' but the implication was there. The fact is...if you haven't been following the the discussions from TS forums regarding weapons, the changes being implented, you don't really know anything at all.

seamus

05-07-2008, 02:10 PM

<cite>Woodlark@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sir Longsword wrote:</cite><blockquote>The +/- hate should have been just split up to make another imbue for a total of 3. That would have increased the number of recipes and everyone would be happy.</blockquote>No, someone would come up with some reason to not like that i'm sure. Off the top of my head.. "I play a (insert tank here), but sometimes I don't tank for a group. I dont want this aggro proc to go off when I am just DPS-ing, because I'm in offensive stance and that would be a drain on the healers, but I dont want to shell out for a second set of weapons each level! Rawr change it so both procs are on the same weapon!" Any change is going to have its detractors. Some people just cannot adapt well, or cannot see the benefits, or think they will outweigh the detriments. My opinion is that these will help more than hinder, but only if people use the game mechanics as they have been set up for most effective gameplay. The people that will not be able do accomplish this are the same people who will not buy one of each weapon type they use to train the skills. Just like the casters that don't let themselves get beaten on by greys to level up defense get killed more often, or that priest who doesnt level up their casting skills gets more resists on debuffs. The people that cannot be arsed to turn a mob will get more aggro from their team, unless the team adjusts to sweeping around the mob for 'proper' placement before letting loose. Tanks that cannot turn the mob for some reason or an other should inform their groupmates, who should be able to adapt as well. </blockquote>I'm on the fence myself. Personally I like the fact that this mechanic adds a bit of zing and ... omg ... skill to grouping. (Really this game is so ez-mode why are people complaining?)As for the OP, the proc obviously should not be used by a pet class soloing. If you want to take advantage of the proc its useful in particular instances, otherwise you'll need another weapon with a different imbue. If this gets folks to buy multiple weapons, this will be good for weaponsmiths which is the purpose of the revamp.

Youngone31

05-07-2008, 02:23 PM

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do not think anyone here is complaining about the stats on the weapons. What people are getting angry over is the change to GS. No whats to do away with imbues. Crafters had to fight just to keep them in game. Some people want the GS not have any additional effect while others do. Not all crafters were fighting to keep 'em. They should of been done away with when EoF came out. I would prefer to leave GS as magical damage only and if people want additional effects on the weapon, find an adornment.I still believe that this addition effect was added for personal reasons. The blog entry was made after the change to GS but I still tink personal reasons still came into play.Some of the crafters have other reasons why they want the imbue changed. $$$</blockquote>And what 'personal' reason would that be? Theres no hidden agenda here people. No conspiracy. She was looking for ways to make these weapons more viable, this was one of 'em. </blockquote>If you think that imbues should have been done away with when EoF, why do you care if GS remains the same or changes???I did not mention hidden agenda for the imbue being changed, When people do things, sometimes they put their personal feelings in it. They may not do it all the time, but they do it some of the times. Its the way of the world.</blockquote>My personal views of the imbue don't matter. The fact is...it is in the game and this change will better the overall experience in the game. This reason alone is what trump's my personal view and opinion in regards to imbue being in the game.You didn't say 'hidden agenda' but the implication was there. The fact is...if you haven't been following the the discussions from TS forums regarding weapons, the changes being implented, you don't really know anything at all.</blockquote>Let me remind you that the point of this thread is to discuss the new imbues. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. What confuses me it that you do not care about the imbues and you think they should have been removed with EoF. You state that your personal views do not matter. Then why waste your time and space on the forum. The reason for the in testing feedback is to let the devs know what we think about the changes they are making. If you think that your personal views do not matter, why are you here????Personally, I have been beating up on the TS devs for years over things they have done. Weapons where not the only thing that needed to be changed. It just happend to be one of the topics of the month. I may not know everything, but I know enough to get by with. I do after all have level 80 outfitters and that tested the new items on the test server.

Rashaak

05-07-2008, 02:40 PM

<cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do not think anyone here is complaining about the stats on the weapons. What people are getting angry over is the change to GS. No whats to do away with imbues. Crafters had to fight just to keep them in game. Some people want the GS not have any additional effect while others do. Not all crafters were fighting to keep 'em. They should of been done away with when EoF came out. I would prefer to leave GS as magical damage only and if people want additional effects on the weapon, find an adornment.I still believe that this addition effect was added for personal reasons. The blog entry was made after the change to GS but I still tink personal reasons still came into play.Some of the crafters have other reasons why they want the imbue changed. $$$</blockquote>And what 'personal' reason would that be? Theres no hidden agenda here people. No conspiracy. She was looking for ways to make these weapons more viable, this was one of 'em. </blockquote>If you think that imbues should have been done away with when EoF, why do you care if GS remains the same or changes???I did not mention hidden agenda for the imbue being changed, When people do things, sometimes they put their personal feelings in it. They may not do it all the time, but they do it some of the times. Its the way of the world.</blockquote>My personal views of the imbue don't matter. The fact is...it is in the game and this change will better the overall experience in the game. This reason alone is what trump's my personal view and opinion in regards to imbue being in the game.You didn't say 'hidden agenda' but the implication was there. The fact is...if you haven't been following the the discussions from TS forums regarding weapons, the changes being implented, you don't really know anything at all.</blockquote>Let me remind you that the point of this thread is to discuss the new imbues. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. What confuses me it that you do not care about the imbues and you think they should have been removed with EoF. You state that your personal views do not matter. Then why waste your time and space on the forum. The reason for the in testing feedback is to let the devs know what we think about the changes they are making. If you think that your personal views do not matter, why are you here????Personally, I have been beating up on the TS devs for years over things they have done. Weapons where not the only thing that needed to be changed. It just happend to be one of the topics of the month. I may not know everything, but I know enough to get by with. I do after all have level 80 outfitters and that tested the new items on the test server.</blockquote>I guess you failed to read this part:The fact is...it is in the game and this change will better the overall experience in the game. This reason alone is what trump's my personal view and opinion in regards to imbue being in the game.This change betters the overall game play, tactics, and viability of the weapons. I also may not know everything, but I know more than enough to get by with, cause I do after all have level 80 outfitters and have also tested new items as well. Ain't that a purty punch, eh? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />Now...if were done talking about what my personal views are, lets get back on topic shall we? Or have you run out of reasons this should not be implemented and have resorted to trying to discredit others feedback?

Rashaak

05-07-2008, 02:42 PM

<cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote (in orange):</cite><blockquote><cite>Captain_Xpendable wrote:</cite><blockquote>New non-imbued weapon currently on test with vampiric handle adornment24-97 damage/1.6 sec delay. Again, max damage for illustration1.6 delay means 37.5 swings per minute (60/1.6 = 37.5)37.5 swings x 97 = 3637.5 damage per minuteVampiric handle is 229 damage x 2 times per minute = 4583637.5 + 458 = 4095.5 damage per minute. Divide that by 60 and you get 68.25 dps.Still boggled that I'm choosing the old imbued weapon over the new non-imbued weapon?You forgot to add in NEW IMBUE weapon as well. You are not giving a fair comparison.24-97 damage/1.6 sec delay. Again, max damage for illustration1.6 delay means 37.5 swings per minute (60/1.6 = 37.5)37.5 swings x 97 = 3637.5 damage per minuteVampiric handle is 229 damage x 2 times per minute = 458inflicts 281-521 magic damage on target. 1.6 times per min.(minimum damage from your above illustration) 281x1.6=505.83637.5 + 458 + 505.8 = 4601.3 damage per minute. Divide that by 60 and you get 76.69 dps.You just shorted yourself 8 points of DPS out of fear of an aggro proc? *two thumbs up to you*Seeing's how if this proc's you either gain or loose at most 1440 aggro per min depending on your position. t8 tanks single target adept 1 taunt does more in aggro than that.You just short changed yourself 8 points of DPS and the ability to lower or raise your hate position by 1 position out of a 1% chance this proc's at the inappropriate time and apparantly don't have the ability to remember to use your de-aggro buffs if this were to occur. Good for you man! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote></blockquote>...he shorted himself 8-14 DPS over fear of a 24 threat-per-second (TPS) aggro proc.Show me a group that can control aggro to within 10-16 DPS in Tier 8, and I'll show you the most cunningly-coded bot program evar.Also, that's only a 10-16 TPS penalty if the mob is never facing the tank/always facing the DPS. It's a wash if it faces the right way 50% of the time, and a 10-16 TPS benefit if it's always facing the right way when the weapons proc. Though that's doubled to a parse-crushing 20-32 TPS if the leading DPSer and the tank both have a Gleaming Strike weapon.(And yes, it's higher with combat art usage and haste, but I'm going with the based-on-unhasted-autoattack-only numbers as given. 100% combat art haste, 100% recovery-speed haste, +200 haste modifier, 100% hit rate, and perfect CA timing can ratchet this up by a factor of 4.25x to 85-136 TPS ... but now you're talking about a group of even-more-perfectly-coded bots, fighting grey mobs, where the leading DPSer is probably pushing 4000-5000 DPS outside of a raid setting.)</blockquote>Thanks Prrasha for the addt'l summary <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />And I agree...

Youngone31

05-07-2008, 03:09 PM

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do not think anyone here is complaining about the stats on the weapons. What people are getting angry over is the change to GS. No whats to do away with imbues. Crafters had to fight just to keep them in game. Some people want the GS not have any additional effect while others do. Not all crafters were fighting to keep 'em. They should of been done away with when EoF came out. I would prefer to leave GS as magical damage only and if people want additional effects on the weapon, find an adornment.I still believe that this addition effect was added for personal reasons. The blog entry was made after the change to GS but I still tink personal reasons still came into play.Some of the crafters have other reasons why they want the imbue changed. $$$</blockquote>And what 'personal' reason would that be? Theres no hidden agenda here people. No conspiracy. She was looking for ways to make these weapons more viable, this was one of 'em. </blockquote>If you think that imbues should have been done away with when EoF, why do you care if GS remains the same or changes???I did not mention hidden agenda for the imbue being changed, When people do things, sometimes they put their personal feelings in it. They may not do it all the time, but they do it some of the times. Its the way of the world.</blockquote>My personal views of the imbue don't matter. The fact is...it is in the game and this change will better the overall experience in the game. This reason alone is what trump's my personal view and opinion in regards to imbue being in the game.You didn't say 'hidden agenda' but the implication was there. The fact is...if you haven't been following the the discussions from TS forums regarding weapons, the changes being implented, you don't really know anything at all.</blockquote>Let me remind you that the point of this thread is to discuss the new imbues. Everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. What confuses me it that you do not care about the imbues and you think they should have been removed with EoF. You state that your personal views do not matter. Then why waste your time and space on the forum. The reason for the in testing feedback is to let the devs know what we think about the changes they are making. If you think that your personal views do not matter, why are you here????Personally, I have been beating up on the TS devs for years over things they have done. Weapons where not the only thing that needed to be changed. It just happend to be one of the topics of the month. I may not know everything, but I know enough to get by with. I do after all have level 80 outfitters and that tested the new items on the test server.</blockquote>I guess you failed to read this part:The fact is...it is in the game and this change will better the overall experience in the game. This reason alone is what trump's my personal view and opinion in regards to imbue being in the game.This change betters the overall game play, tactics, and viability of the weapons. I also may not know everything, but I know more than enough to get by with, cause I do after all have level 80 outfitters and have also tested new items as well. Ain't that a purty punch, eh? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15">Now...if were done talking about what my personal views are, lets get back on topic shall we? Or have you run out of reasons this should not be implemented and have resorted to trying to discredit others feedback?</blockquote>This is my last post to you since you side stepped my previous question. I read your post and this comment "The fact is...it is in the game and this change will better the overall experience in the game" is a response any dev would use to justify a change they make in the game. It a personal reason. They think they are doing something good for the game.You on the other hand do not care anything about the imbues which is why I asked why you are posting here. There is no need to answer now because honestly I do not care anymore. You are entitled to your opinions and I am entitled to mine.Getting back on topic, I think that the imbues should not changed. The new GS is going to do more harm than good. People play this game different ways. With this new imbue, the devs are pretty much saying that if you use this weapon. You are going to play this way. It takes away people freedom. Now its, if people want to continue and play the way they used to, they can not have their weapon imbued. Its bad enough the devs try to dictate how people play, but this is going too far. People need to realize that there is no right or wrong way to play this game. Its about having fun.The devs should either leave the imbues as is or give people a choice between the new and old imbues. I used imbues as long as I played the game. Now I think that will come to an end. Next tier, I guess I will have to look for a decent dropped weapon or work on my epic...

denmom

05-07-2008, 03:33 PM

<cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Getting back on topic, I think that the imbues should not changed. The new GS is going to do more harm than good. People play this game different ways. With this new imbue, the devs are pretty much saying that if you use this weapon. You are going to play this way. It takes away people freedom. Now its, if people want to continue and play the way they used to, they can not have their weapon imbued. Its bad enough the devs try to dictate how people play, but this is going too far. People need to realize that there is no right or wrong way to play this game. Its about having fun.The devs should either leave the imbues as is or give people a choice between the new and old imbues. I used imbues as long as I played the game. Now I think that will come to an end. Next tier, I guess I will have to look for a decent dropped weapon or work on my epic... </blockquote>Exactly how I feel on it.Sure you can get a mastercrafted weapon without the Gleaming Strike imbue. But that takes away from the player the choice of additional damage.I do think that a good compromise would be three imbues. The current Gleaming Strike that gives magical damage, the new imbue with perhaps the changed name of Gleaming Hate, and the new Blessing.

seamus

05-07-2008, 03:43 PM

Razlath

05-07-2008, 04:43 PM

<cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Getting back on topic, I think that the imbues should not changed. The new GS is going to do more harm than good. People play this game different ways. With this new imbue, the devs are pretty much saying that if you use this weapon. You are going to play this way. It takes away people freedom. Now its, if people want to continue and play the way they used to, they can not have their weapon imbued. Its bad enough the devs try to dictate how people play, but this is going too far. People need to realize that there is no right or wrong way to play this game. Its about having fun. The devs should either leave the imbues as is or give people a choice between the new and old imbues. I used imbues as long as I played the game. Now I think that will come to an end. Next tier, I guess I will have to look for a decent dropped weapon or work on my epic... </blockquote>Exactly how I feel on it.Sure you can get a mastercrafted weapon without the Gleaming Strike imbue. But that takes away from the player the choice of additional damage.I do think that a good compromise would be three imbues. The current Gleaming Strike that gives magical damage, the new imbue with perhaps the changed name of Gleaming Hate, and the new Blessing.</blockquote>QFTLet the players decide. Unless this is going to put the WSs over the number of sage recipes they still don't have enough. Sages should be the TS that all others are set to match as far as number of recipes since theirs can never be decreased. If three imbues puts them close and gives the players of the game more choice, I count it as a win all around.And just to re-iterate in case the devs are still reading this thread, great job on the revamp. When the only thing the community is divided over is an imbue I would say you guys did a darn good job. Especially when those concerns are mostly "gut".This forum is for feedback, and I think the feedback has been given. It is up to the devs to decide which arguments have merits and which do not. A solution has been suggested, it is up to them whether that solution is viable or not. The argument for or against based on it being in the game isn't valid. It isn't in the game, it is on test. Technically what is in the game is a GS without a hate mod. The coercer changes are being tweaked based on feedback from the player base and they are often split about what they want as well. There is no reason not to give your opinions on things in test. They can still be changed if your concerns ring true with the devs.To the people saying just use an adorn to make up for a GS proc you don't like. How would you like it if the shoe was on the other foot? GS stays the same and you have to use an adorn to get the hate effect. Sorry no vampire handle for you, you got hate. That is what you are saying to those asking for a version of GS without the hate mod.I am done with this thread, I think everything that can be said maturely has been said. It is in the dev's hands now, whatever they decide the game will go on, and the weaponsmiths will still have a better place in the world than they do now. Basically they can't fail, and they can't please everyone, so they will do what they feel is best based on the feedback of the community.

Runewind

05-07-2008, 05:14 PM

<cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Captain_Xpendable wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Captain_Xpendable wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I am wondering how going from a proc that pretty much everyone wanted to one that a few may not is a boost, but that is just me.</blockquote>Good point, This could be viewed as a nerf to anyone who has frontal only CA's. Before this gleaming strike was just some nice extra damage, after this goes live many will probably have to give up that damage because it's not worth not being able to use their frontals.And no, adornments don't replace imbues because you can adorn imbued weapons, you still lose out. Fortunately, I've been able to purchase all the MC weapons with the current imbue I'm going to need for all tiers, I won't have to worry about this until after the level cap is raised and I get to t9 (somewhere around 2025). Unfortunately, after this goes live no one else will have this option once the old imbues disappear from the market.</blockquote>/boggle. Please, take an actual look at the new DR and Delays and tell me you are going to keep the old stuff.On normal test I have tossed/muted every old MC weapon I had. Non Imbued MC at most levels is better than old world legendary. For as long as I have played this game people have ignored the gleaming Proc in favor of DR and Delay on loot weapons. They have ignored the stat bonus on MC in favor of DR and Delay on loot weapons.Now, we have improved DR and Delay on MC weapons, and people are having a cow about a proc that was never quite good enough to beat DR and Delay.Ok, Im speechless now.carry on.</blockquote>Alright, lets look at the level 72 stats on the test server broker and see if a new non-imbued weapon is better than the old imbued.I go with Falchions for the high STR stats.Old imbued weapon with vampiric handle adornment.54-217 damage/4.0 sec delay. For illustration purposes we'll use the max damage.4.0 delay means 15 swings per minute (60/4= 15)15 swings x 217 = 3255 damage per minuteVampiric handle is 229 damage x 2 times per minute = 458gleaming strike is 264-491 damage x 1.8 times per minute (let's see what minimum damage does)264x1.8=4753255 + 458 + 475 = 4188 damage per minute. Divide that by 60 and you get 69.8 dps.New non-imbued weapon currently on test with vampiric handle adornment24-97 damage/1.6 sec delay. Again, max damage for illustration1.6 delay means 37.5 swings per minute (60/1.6 = 37.5)37.5 swings x 97 = 3637.5 damage per minuteVampiric handle is 229 damage x 2 times per minute = 4583637.5 + 458 = 4095.5 damage per minute. Divide that by 60 and you get 68.25 dps.Still boggled that I'm choosing the old imbued weapon over the new non-imbued weapon?You forgot to add in NEW IMBUE weapon as well. You are not giving a fair comparison.24-97 damage/1.6 sec delay. Again, max damage for illustration1.6 delay means 37.5 swings per minute (60/1.6 = 37.5)37.5 swings x 97 = 3637.5 damage per minuteVampiric handle is 229 damage x 2 times per minute = 458inflicts 281-521 magic damage on target. 1.6 times per min.(minimum damage from your above illustration) 281x1.6=505.83637.5 + 458 + 505.8 = 4601.3 damage per minute. Divide that by 60 and you get 76.69 dps.You just shorted yourself 8 points of DPS out of fear of an aggro proc? *two thumbs up to you*Seeing's how if this proc's you either gain or loose at most 1440 aggro per min depending on your position. t8 tanks single target adept 1 taunt does more in aggro than that.You just short changed yourself 8 points of DPS and the ability to lower or raise your hate position by 1 position out of a 1% chance this proc's at the inappropriate time and apparantly don't have the ability to remember to use your de-aggro buffs if this were to occur. Good for you man! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>So yes...adornment can replace imbues, and I hope someday the imbue is done away with...</blockquote>Not really looking like adornments are replacing imbues here, given that I used the minimum that gleaming strike hits for, and do you really think imbues are going away when they just went to the trouble of creating new ones?</blockquote>They will someday go away I hope, because they've caused nothing but problems since being left in after EoF.</blockquote>Okay. I've read this entire thread and I can't let this completely illogical comment go by uncommented on. He WAS being fair. Pay attention to the argument. He had said that he would keep the old imbued weapons over the new NON-IMBUED weapons. Someone had said that that "boggled" them because the new damage on the non-imbued would be better than the old imbued. THAT was the argument. The reason the new imbued was left out was because... wait for it... they were arguing over the NON-IMBUED version. Seriously, dude. Read the argument before you decide to add non-relavent information to it.

Lasai

05-07-2008, 07:53 PM

<cite>Runewind wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Captain_Xpendable wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Captain_Xpendable wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I am wondering how going from a proc that pretty much everyone wanted to one that a few may not is a boost, but that is just me.</blockquote>Good point, This could be viewed as a nerf to anyone who has frontal only CA's. Before this gleaming strike was just some nice extra damage, after this goes live many will probably have to give up that damage because it's not worth not being able to use their frontals.And no, adornments don't replace imbues because you can adorn imbued weapons, you still lose out. Fortunately, I've been able to purchase all the MC weapons with the current imbue I'm going to need for all tiers, I won't have to worry about this until after the level cap is raised and I get to t9 (somewhere around 2025). Unfortunately, after this goes live no one else will have this option once the old imbues disappear from the market.</blockquote>/boggle. Please, take an actual look at the new DR and Delays and tell me you are going to keep the old stuff.On normal test I have tossed/muted every old MC weapon I had. Non Imbued MC at most levels is better than old world legendary. For as long as I have played this game people have ignored the gleaming Proc in favor of DR and Delay on loot weapons. They have ignored the stat bonus on MC in favor of DR and Delay on loot weapons.Now, we have improved DR and Delay on MC weapons, and people are having a cow about a proc that was never quite good enough to beat DR and Delay.Ok, Im speechless now.carry on.</blockquote>Alright, lets look at the level 72 stats on the test server broker and see if a new non-imbued weapon is better than the old imbued.I go with Falchions for the high STR stats.Old imbued weapon with vampiric handle adornment.54-217 damage/4.0 sec delay. For illustration purposes we'll use the max damage.4.0 delay means 15 swings per minute (60/4= 15)15 swings x 217 = 3255 damage per minuteVampiric handle is 229 damage x 2 times per minute = 458gleaming strike is 264-491 damage x 1.8 times per minute (let's see what minimum damage does)264x1.8=4753255 + 458 + 475 = 4188 damage per minute. Divide that by 60 and you get 69.8 dps.New non-imbued weapon currently on test with vampiric handle adornment24-97 damage/1.6 sec delay. Again, max damage for illustration1.6 delay means 37.5 swings per minute (60/1.6 = 37.5)37.5 swings x 97 = 3637.5 damage per minuteVampiric handle is 229 damage x 2 times per minute = 4583637.5 + 458 = 4095.5 damage per minute. Divide that by 60 and you get 68.25 dps.Still boggled that I'm choosing the old imbued weapon over the new non-imbued weapon?You forgot to add in NEW IMBUE weapon as well. You are not giving a fair comparison.24-97 damage/1.6 sec delay. Again, max damage for illustration1.6 delay means 37.5 swings per minute (60/1.6 = 37.5)37.5 swings x 97 = 3637.5 damage per minuteVampiric handle is 229 damage x 2 times per minute = 458inflicts 281-521 magic damage on target. 1.6 times per min.(minimum damage from your above illustration) 281x1.6=505.83637.5 + 458 + 505.8 = 4601.3 damage per minute. Divide that by 60 and you get 76.69 dps.You just shorted yourself 8 points of DPS out of fear of an aggro proc? *two thumbs up to you*Seeing's how if this proc's you either gain or loose at most 1440 aggro per min depending on your position. t8 tanks single target adept 1 taunt does more in aggro than that.You just short changed yourself 8 points of DPS and the ability to lower or raise your hate position by 1 position out of a 1% chance this proc's at the inappropriate time and apparantly don't have the ability to remember to use your de-aggro buffs if this were to occur. Good for you man! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>So yes...adornment can replace imbues, and I hope someday the imbue is done away with...</blockquote>Not really looking like adornments are replacing imbues here, given that I used the minimum that gleaming strike hits for, and do you really think imbues are going away when they just went to the trouble of creating new ones?</blockquote>They will someday go away I hope, because they've caused nothing but problems since being left in after EoF.</blockquote>Okay. I've read this entire thread and I can't let this completely illogical comment go by uncommented on. He WAS being fair. Pay attention to the argument. He had said that he would keep the old imbued weapons over the new NON-IMBUED weapons. Someone had said that that "boggled" them because the new damage on the non-imbued would be better than the old imbued. THAT was the argument. The reason the new imbued was left out was because... wait for it... they were arguing over the NON-IMBUED version. Seriously, dude. Read the argument before you decide to add non-relavent information to it.</blockquote>I posed the original statement he supposedly rebutted, and I ignored him. He picked, as comparison, the single weapon in T8 that went from 4 seconds to 1.6. His simplistic argument is based solely on that, as we all know the effects of swing time and haste. I stand by what I said, and particularly for the 7 tiers that went from 1.6 swing on ALL weapons to weapons with delay. If you choose a weapon with lower DR, 1.6 swing time over any weapon with a decent delay and signifigant DR improvement based upon some chicken little hysteria about a threat proc I will still /boggle. Period. My argument that, in real game use, an unimbued new MC weapon with higher DR and DELAY is a better choice than an old imbue still stands.

Rashaak

05-08-2008, 11:56 AM

<cite>Runewind wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Captain_Xpendable wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lasai wrote:</cite>Alright, lets look at the level 72 stats on the test server broker and see if a new non-imbued weapon is better than the old imbued.I go with Falchions for the high STR stats.Old imbued weapon with vampiric handle adornment.54-217 damage/4.0 sec delay. For illustration purposes we'll use the max damage.4.0 delay means 15 swings per minute (60/4= 15)15 swings x 217 = 3255 damage per minuteVampiric handle is 229 damage x 2 times per minute = 458gleaming strike is 264-491 damage x 1.8 times per minute (let's see what minimum damage does)264x1.8=4753255 + 458 + 475 = 4188 damage per minute. Divide that by 60 and you get 69.8 dps.New non-imbued weapon currently on test with vampiric handle adornment24-97 damage/1.6 sec delay. Again, max damage for illustration1.6 delay means 37.5 swings per minute (60/1.6 = 37.5)37.5 swings x 97 = 3637.5 damage per minuteVampiric handle is 229 damage x 2 times per minute = 4583637.5 + 458 = 4095.5 damage per minute. Divide that by 60 and you get 68.25 dps.Still boggled that I'm choosing the old imbued weapon over the new non-imbued weapon?You forgot to add in NEW IMBUE weapon as well. You are not giving a fair comparison.24-97 damage/1.6 sec delay. Again, max damage for illustration1.6 delay means 37.5 swings per minute (60/1.6 = 37.5)37.5 swings x 97 = 3637.5 damage per minuteVampiric handle is 229 damage x 2 times per minute = 458inflicts 281-521 magic damage on target. 1.6 times per min.(minimum damage from your above illustration) 281x1.6=505.83637.5 + 458 + 505.8 = 4601.3 damage per minute. Divide that by 60 and you get 76.69 dps.You just shorted yourself 8 points of DPS out of fear of an aggro proc? *two thumbs up to you*Seeing's how if this proc's you either gain or loose at most 1440 aggro per min depending on your position. t8 tanks single target adept 1 taunt does more in aggro than that.You just short changed yourself 8 points of DPS and the ability to lower or raise your hate position by 1 position out of a 1% chance this proc's at the inappropriate time and apparantly don't have the ability to remember to use your de-aggro buffs if this were to occur. Good for you man! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /><cite>Rashaak wrote:</cite><blockquote>So yes...adornment can replace imbues, and I hope someday the imbue is done away with...</blockquote>Not really looking like adornments are replacing imbues here, given that I used the minimum that gleaming strike hits for, and do you really think imbues are going away when they just went to the trouble of creating new ones?</blockquote>They will someday go away I hope, because they've caused nothing but problems since being left in after EoF.</blockquote>Okay. I've read this entire thread and I can't let this completely illogical comment go by uncommented on. He WAS being fair. Pay attention to the argument. He had said that he would keep the old imbued weapons over the new NON-IMBUED weapons. Someone had said that that "boggled" them because the new damage on the non-imbued would be better than the old imbued. THAT was the argument. The reason the new imbued was left out was because... wait for it... they were arguing over the NON-IMBUED version. Seriously, dude. Read the argument before you decide to add non-relavent information to it.</blockquote>Yo dude!He's choosing a NON-IMBUE new crafted weapon out of 'fear' that an aggro proc will disrupt his play style enough to warrant not purchasing a new Imbue weapon. So no, he did NOT give a fair comparison, because the whole arguement is that the new imbue aggro is going to be a detrimental effect rather than a beneficial effect. Next time you read the whole thread, comprehend what the arguements been about.I showed that he shorted himself on the low end 8 points of dps and further re-itterated by another poster, showing that if not positioned correctly could gain 24 threat-per-second aggro from the proc. Unless your raiding, most fights don't last more the 10 seconds...20 at most. In that 20 seconds, the players aggro (if not positioned behind the target will only obtain about 480 aggro to the mob overall, which is quickly negated by use of de-aggro's or the tank taunting.Ppl are commenting on this proc as if it will be a detrimental effect and have shown little to no evidence to support that theory. All information that has been given, including #'s show that this effect will BENEFIT the player, especially for the melee class's, which will be the only ones who really need to use this type of weapon. This is the reason the second imbue was put in, to allow Casters an option. The + to spell/heal damage buff wil far out weigh the DD damage proc you get from GS. So ppl need to get off the doom and gloom for a moment and either go and test it to see if it's a bad proc or leave it alone. It's a good change for crafted weapons.NOW, to try and get back on topic:Any mages testing the Blessed try an adorn DD proc yet?I don't have a mage type toon to test this, but want to know if Adornment DD proc's have been adjusted the same way GS was?

Regholdain

05-08-2008, 01:16 PM

I agree that folks are way overreacting to the new change to GS. *IF* the hate procs because of incorrect positioning by dps or the mob is pulled off the tank, taunts and deaggro abilities will completely override any deagro / aggro procs that take effect due to positioning changing or being improper. I don't see how a tank would not be able to get snap aggro back, or how the new GS would make it more difficult to. I think folks need to do more testing before they overreact to the change.

Youngone31

05-08-2008, 01:48 PM

<cite>Regholdain wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree that folks are way overreacting to the new change to GS. *IF* the hate procs because of incorrect positioning by dps or the mob is pulled off the tank, taunts and deaggro abilities will completely override any deagro / aggro procs that take effect due to positioning changing or being improper. I don't see how a tank would not be able to get snap aggro back, or how the new GS would make it more difficult to. I think folks need to do more testing before they overreact to the change.</blockquote>I agree with you that people are overreacting about the new GS. You also have to consider that GS has worked well for years. No one has ever had a problem with it. As the saying goes, why fix something that is not broken.I read some of the other posts in the gameplay section and most of the people are worried about the risks involved with this new GS. Tanks are worried that a dps might do something which steals agro then the tanks weapon triggers causing them to lose agro or the dps weapons triggers given them more agro. Healers are worried about softer target stealing agro and having to spam heals while praying the dps either stops attacking or the tank regains agro. Dps are worried they will no longer be able to use they special positional attacks. These problems can happen any time but the new GS imbues will increase the chance of it happening. It is an added risk to any group and people do not want to have to worry about what could happen in a groupif people are using these weapons.There are plenty of hate modifing items that people can use to increase or decrease hate. None of these items are positional so there is no risk involved with them.That is why I say to keep the old GS and add one the triggers off of magic. Make the hate modifiers and blessing an adornment.This would put people mind at ease for they would not have to worry about any added risks placed on their groups.

Mogzilla

05-08-2008, 04:47 PM

I would like to test this new GS proc.I did the /testcopy add, but when I log on it still says my toons are all on my normal server.What do I need to do?

Lasai

05-08-2008, 11:34 PM

<cite>Mogzilla wrote:</cite><blockquote>I would like to test this new GS proc.I did the /testcopy add, but when I log on it still says my toons are all on my normal server.What do I need to do?</blockquote>Your normal chars will stay on the Live server launcher. What you need now is the Test Server Launcher and client. You should see a button on your normal Launchpad after you have logged in that says Test. First time you hit that it should create a new folder called testserver, copy your current gamefiles to it, and connect to the Test Launchpad to update test-only files.There is a sticky in the Test Server forum located in the Server Forums with info.

Noaani

05-09-2008, 04:23 AM

<cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite> <blockquote>I agree with you that people are overreacting about the new GS. You also have to consider that GS has worked well for years. No one has ever had a problem with it. As the saying goes, why fix something that is not broken.</blockquote>This game was also just "fine" before RoK was released, so why did they bother with that?It was "fine" before Unrest was added, so why did they do that?It was "fine" before imbues were even added as an option to crafted items (GU#5 for those that do not remember), so why did they do that?

Youngone31

05-09-2008, 11:53 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite> <blockquote>I agree with you that people are overreacting about the new GS. You also have to consider that GS has worked well for years. No one has ever had a problem with it. As the saying goes, why fix something that is not broken.</blockquote>This game was also just "fine" before RoK was released, so why did they bother with that?It was "fine" before Unrest was added, so why did they do that?It was "fine" before imbues were even added as an option to crafted items (GU#5 for those that do not remember), so why did they do that?</blockquote>The answer to questions one are two are easy. They added content to attract new customers and keep old ones.With that being said your post here is a waste of time and space. It has nothing to do with this topic. If you want troll somewhere, go back to the GU 45 and the God awful tank thread and bash people there. If you have something constructing to say, then by all means post here.This thread is for people that can offer positive feedback. Suggestion are being made to keep everyone happy. People do not mind the new imbues but they also want to have a choice between the new and the old one. I been offering suggestions to the devs so that everyone will be happy.So please, do not troll here. There are other thread you can do that at.

Sightless

05-09-2008, 02:23 PM

The agro, and deagro proc should be two seperate imbues. Not a combined imbue.This way a Swashbuckler who tanks often can carry two weapons, one set with agro proc, and one set with deagro proc.

Rashaak

05-09-2008, 02:35 PM

Regholdain

05-09-2008, 05:01 PM

<cite>Sightless wrote:</cite><blockquote>The agro, and deagro proc should be two seperate imbues. Not a combined imbue.This way a Swashbuckler who tanks often can carry two weapons, one set with agro proc, and one set with deagro proc.</blockquote>It really wouldn't matter if they are seperate imbues or not. If you're tanking, your facing the mob and building aggro. So there's no need for a seperate imbue. Ohh... you mean because while tanking you will use your turn the mob for sneakattack abilities and might get the deaggro proc? The rogue has survivability, but is not designed to be an actual tank. So really... if you want to tank, play a fighter class. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> They don't have positional attacks for the most part and are designed with the thought in mind that they are in the fore-front of battle, which makes them IDEAL for tanking, hands down. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />But really, on the other hand, the proc's deagro compared with a rogues dps and debuff hate? Please... it really wouldn't force an issue even for them... There still would be no need to worry about the new proc on GS.

Lasai

05-09-2008, 05:21 PM

Ran Maulics yesterday with a PUG of 5 people on test. Level 30 mentored group, highest actual level was 33.This is a realistic level and indicative of who and where MC weapons would be used. The group was certainly not the twinked alt group you would see on live.MT was a Shadowknight, I was dps with my lower level SK.Given the number of mobs that add, positioning in this can be interesting given the tendancy for the mobs to surround the MT regardless of turning. An add circus like Maulics is a plausible scenario in which even the best tank and dps can end up mispositioned by mob taunt mechanics and autotargeting when a mob dies.Had a couple of situations where Mobs taunting the MT off led to me facing his target with my new steel GS weapon, and a couple of situations where it indeed procced when I was temporarily mispositioned. I did not rip aggro, and it took very little time for me to reposition any time. There were no adverse effects from my GS weapon that I could see.Granted, this needs more testing, but I truly believe that this new proc is not a wipe bomb waiting to go off, as people are representing it.I would love to see actual accounts of the new proc causing the speculative issues people are bringing forth. Actual testing trumps guestimation.And my final thoughts on this for now.Will this GS threat proc magically force me to be a better tank.. No. Is it a tool I can use to make me a better tank.. yes. I will take a proc that does 3x threat over a normal GS as they are now. I will work hard to force the dps into dethreat position by my position, something I should be doing anyway.It will give every new tank who can read and comprehend a description an incentive, from the first time they equip this, to put themselves in front of the mob and put the mobs back to the DPS... or at least those tanks who can comprehend that Aggro is thier job. Just like anything else, tools are only as good as the person wielding them. I think this new proc is too good a tool to be tossed away by the "what ifs". I like versatility of changing the proc simply by position. I don't want to toss that on "what ifs" either.If overanxious, stupid or parse happy dps rips aggro, what's new. Not my problem. Not now, and not after the new proc comes in. Nothing added to this game will ever defeat the ability of sheer stupidity to ruin any tactic or strategy. The new proc will benefit people already working hard at being "good" at thier game. It won't do a thing for people who don't care.

Youngone31

05-12-2008, 12:01 PM

I have always been against the new GS being put in the game but after further review, I strongly believe that it should not be allowed into the game. Domino herself replied in another thread that these weapons were based off some raid dagger. Any weapon that is made with this new imbued will be over powered. People have complained before that some of the MC items are crossing the line by becoming better than legendary. These weapons will severely over step that boundary.I did some more testing with the new GS. I am trying to figure out how to post my screenshot. Unless there was some type of glitch this weekend or I never noticed it before, the T8 master crafted weapons I made had a +/- hate modifier of 1039. The hand crafted ones had a +/- hate modifier of 994. That is what the weapon read as a level 80 character. I tried to find some other weapons that had a hate modifier to compare with. One of the weapons I found that was legendary only had a hate modifier of 600. The weapon did not have any other effects on it. I compared a MC Karabela to a Legendary Tsinisite Sabre.Karabela +50 Str, +50 Wis, +90 health and power, 75.4 damage rating. Procs a +/- hate modifier of 1039 and does 6222-1155 of magical damage 1.6 times per minute. Usable at level 72Tsinisite Sabre +30 Sta, +20 Wis, 100 health, +50 power, 78.6 damage rating. Procs a hate modifier of 600 1.6 times per minute. Usable at level 75.The MC weapon beats the legendary weapon in everything except damage. The MC weapon has two effects to the legendary weapon’s one effect. If you add an adornment to the MC weapon, it will have just as many effects as an Epic weapon.The MC weapons should not have two effects. They should not have a hate modifier and do magical damage. How many Fabled and Legendary weapons have two effects? This imbue need to be changed now before its nerfed later. Lots of people are already complaining now that MC items are becoming too powerful. When these weapons go live, we are all going to hear some serious screaming.This is another reason why I ask to keep the old GS and make a new one that triggers off of magic. Make the hate modifier and blessing into an adornment. The new amount of weapons made would remain the same because there would still be two imbues. The new effects could be made into three adornments.

Rashaak

05-12-2008, 02:43 PM

<cite>Youngone31 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I have always been against the new GS being put in the game but after further review, I strongly believe that it should not be allowed into the game. Domino herself replied in another thread that these weapons were based off some raid dagger. Any weapon that is made with this new imbued will be over powered. People have complained before that some of the MC items are crossing the line by becoming better than legendary. These weapons will severely over step that boundary.I did some more testing with the new GS. I am trying to figure out how to post my screenshot. Unless there was some type of glitch this weekend or I never noticed it before, the T8 master crafted weapons I made had a +/- hate modifier of 1039. The hand crafted ones had a +/- hate modifier of 994. That is what the weapon read as a level 80 character. I tried to find some other weapons that had a hate modifier to compare with. One of the weapons I found that was legendary only had a hate modifier of 600. The weapon did not have any other effects on it. I compared a MC Karabela to a Legendary Tsinisite Sabre.Karabela +50 Str, +50 Wis, +90 health and power, 75.4 damage rating. Procs a +/- hate modifier of 1039 and does 6222-1155 of magical damage 1.6 times per minute. Usable at level 72Tsinisite Sabre +30 Sta, +20 Wis, 100 health, +50 power, 78.6 damage rating. Procs a hate modifier of 600 1.6 times per minute. Usable at level 75.The MC weapon beats the legendary weapon in everything except damage. The MC weapon has two effects to the legendary weapon’s one effect. If you add an adornment to the MC weapon, it will have just as many effects as an Epic weapon.The MC weapons should not have two effects. They should not have a hate modifier and do magical damage. How many Fabled and Legendary weapons have two effects? This imbue need to be changed now before its nerfed later. Lots of people are already complaining now that MC items are becoming too powerful. When these weapons go live, we are all going to hear some serious screaming.This is another reason why I ask to keep the old GS and make a new one that triggers off of magic. Make the hate modifier and blessing into an adornment. The new amount of weapons made would remain the same because there would still be two imbues. The new effects could be made into three adornments. </blockquote>Lots of people have made complaints yes, but lots of people have supported the change. However, I do agree the aggro/deaggro modifier is a bit high and needs to be reduced to 600. I'm basing this off my run in Shard of Hate yesterday and running across this item:<img src="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/examine/1013922953" alt="" width="280" height="608" border="0" />Obviously this is fabled, but if a MC aggro/deaggro is higher than threat level of a fabled item...well, it does need to be adjusted down some. Not removed.