AA Pondering

[Wluil]

Lately I've been falling more and more into the raider category, and having done so I've been spending an inordinate amount of time twiddling around with my AA's. Between here, and the (often crazy) EQ2Flames there's been a lot of different advice over what AA setup works best in a raid scenarios. Typically it boils down to AGI/WIS and some other random tree. But I wanted to push it a little deeper, because I think there may be better layouts and wanted some opinions.<div></div><div>Bard Tree:</div><div>Basically, I see it as an argument across our 4th line abilities; Bladesing, Poison Concoction, Fortissimo and Minstrel's Melody. I've left out Allegretto since we're just expected to have that maximized in a raid, no getting around it. *pout* Now with the 70 points we have to work with, this allows us to max out two more 4th line abilities. My question, is what combination of those two will net you the most DPS? Strength boost + double attack? Poison + Haste? Double Attack + Haste?</div><div></div><div>I've about written off Poison Concoction. Looking at the numbers it adds maybe 60-80 to my zone wide. Not an impressive amount for 8 points. I have a feeling this might have been a worthwhile ability back when the lines were introduced, but I think it's been out scaled by a number of factors including T8 mob resists and hit points, harder hitting weapons and ridiculously fast haste buffs. </div><div></div><div>As far as the STA line while raiding, I think this is more situational. If you have uber-primary weapon and a high end bard shield from VP, I think that 4-4-8-8 in STA is a rocking thing. I don't have that, although I have noticed that even without uber-weapons my DPS didn't tank nearly as bad as I had expected when I tried it. I was off my max by about 10-15%.</div><div></div><div>I'm still trying to find one that "just works", but I'm leaning towards maxing out Fortissimo and Minstrel's melody. At least that's going to be my next trial</div><div></div><div>Troubador Tree:</div><div>Not much to say here, it's a bit all over the place, my only comment is on the end line ability of Demoralizers. Should this be declared "broken" at this point? Every thread I've seen about this says that it's effect is nearly impossible to determine, and given that when everything is maximized in that tree the mob should be missing 45% of it's CA's that should be somewhat apparent somewhere. Now, this may very well not be intended as a raid viable skill, which is fine. However, I think something should be done to provide more in game feedback as to it's effect. Wether it be some kind of log entry, or well... anything would be nice.</div><div></div><div>Thoughts? Opinions? Flaming pitchforks?</div>

[Kelin]

I've said it before and I'll say it again (and then probably drop the subject because I'm starting to get sick of the same argument over and over) in my opinion it just stupid to waste aa trying to raise your dps as a troubador in raids, spend them raising everyone else's dps because that is why you are in that raid. Personally I think int/wis/sta for us. I let the dirges pick up fortissimo because I'm in a group with squishy casters anyway.

[RanmaBoyType]

<p>Here is my current AA set ups:</p><p><img src="http://users.rcn.com/chrisshelly/images/narubard.JPG" alt="" width="645" height="605" border="0" /></p><p>and </p><p><img src="http://users.rcn.com/chrisshelly/images/narutroub.JPG" alt="" width="645" height="603" border="0" /></p><p>Im still toying with adding in harmonization since I only hear good things about it.</p><p>Any questions on my choices I would be glad to discuss.  This is my current raid set up fyi.  If i need to do serious soloing i would switch to 8 points in skalds defense, and switch to agi probably for wayfarers watch.</p><p>Im always up for recomendations if you think points may be better spent somewhere else (please include a reason as to why)</p>

[Pnaxx]

<cite>Spash@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've said it before and I'll say it again (and then probably drop the subject because I'm starting to get sick of the same argument over and over) in my opinion it just stupid to waste aa trying to raise your dps as a troubador in raids, spend them raising everyone else's dps because that is why you are in that raid. Personally I think int/wis/sta for us. I let the dirges pick up fortissimo because I'm in a group with squishy casters anyway. </blockquote>Even though I am as far away from raiding as a toon could be, I know what I know, and in this case, I am in agreemement with Splash here. We are there to buff the group! Period. We are their for others. That is where we shine. Leave the dps to the dps folk...just make them better. We should not be thinking in terms of how much dps we can do raiding. Use those points to maximize others and you will be maximizing your potentual. Even though I have a lowbie Troub, I have 80th level alt and know about what troubs are all about, which is why I picked the class.

[Banditman]

<cite>RanmaBoyType wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Im always up for recomendations if you think points may be better spent somewhere else (please include a reason as to why)</p></blockquote>Actually, a question.Do you find yourself in melee groups when raiding?  I usually find Troubadors in caster groups to be a better use of their strengths.  Is there a lack of Dirges?

[RanmaBoyType]

<p>Our group setup is usually the following:</p><p>1) fury</p><p>2) troub</p><p>3, 4, 5) mage</p><p>6) another melee, usually a scout like a brig or ranger.</p><p>We are not a hardcore raiding guild, so we go in with whomever feels like raiding.  sometimes we are lucky to have even 1 dirge and myself on the raid force.  We almost never have 4 bards, and i can count on one hand the amount of times we were blessed to have the illusionist in our group, due to needing the regen and buffs elsewhere from the lack of bards.</p><p>We do try to keep a second scout in the group, to help take advantage of the buffs from the mages, also this is why i will run the haste buff and 8 points to increase its effectiveness (ad3 t8 is somewhere like 44 haste for the group).</p><p>I don't think we ever once had the perfect raid force, so im proud when i can make 2500 given the circumstances.  (i know raiding troubs can do much higher, but then i see their raid set up and can see easily how that is so) Also noting as a raid alliance we made it to VP, however druushk is proving to be a pita.</p><p>With that in mind i still just can't agree with any troub who thinks all we should do is buff.  that just irritates me.  Its like the healers who stand around at full power instead of debuffing/nuking/doing SOMETHING and claim their only job should be to heal /sigh.</p>

[Pnaxx]

<cite>RanmaBoyType wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Our group setup is usually the following:</p><p>1) fury</p><p>2) troub</p><p>3, 4, 5) mage</p><p>6) another melee, usually a scout like a brig or ranger.</p><p>We are not a hardcore raiding guild, so we go in with whomever feels like raiding.  sometimes we are lucky to have even 1 dirge and myself on the raid force.  We almost never have 4 bards, and i can count on one hand the amount of times we were blessed to have the illusionist in our group, due to needing the regen and buffs elsewhere from the lack of bards.</p><p>We do try to keep a second scout in the group, to help take advantage of the buffs from the mages, also this is why i will run the haste buff and 8 points to increase its effectiveness (ad3 t8 is somewhere like 44 haste for the group).</p><p>I don't think we ever once had the perfect raid force, so im proud when i can make 2500 given the circumstances.  (i know raiding troubs can do much higher, but then i see their raid set up and can see easily how that is so) Also noting as a raid alliance we made it to VP, however druushk is proving to be a pita.</p><p>With that in mind i still just can't agree with any troub who thinks all we should do is buff.  that just irritates me.  Its like the healers who stand around at full power instead of debuffing/nuking/doing SOMETHING and claim their only job should be to heal /sigh.</p></blockquote>I wouldn't suggest you just stand there...indeed hit the mob! I am saying troubs should build thier toon for buffs for raiding and do as much damage you can during the fight in light of that.

[Banditman]

I'm not knocking what guild anyone raids with.  In this case, I was wondering why you were spending 8 AA's in Group Haste and another 8 in Group Double Attack.  If you were in a melee group, ok, I can see it.  In a caster group though, you're only benefitting yourself and one other with those AA's.Like most things, AA choice depends largely on your "normal" situation.If raiding in a group with 3.5 Mages plus yourself I think I'd probably pull the 8 AA's out of Group Haste, dump 5 into AGI to get Bump (for instant stealth / night strike combo) and the drop the other 3 into enhancing Song of Magic.It's a good situation to be in, from a Troubador perspective, where there are multiple AA trees that are useful.  Many classes don't have this luxury.

[RanmaBoyType]

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not knocking what guild anyone raids with.  In this case, I was wondering why you were spending 8 AA's in Group Haste and another 8 in Group Double Attack.  If you were in a melee group, ok, I can see it.  In a caster group though, you're only benefitting yourself and one other with those AA's.Like most things, AA choice depends largely on your "normal" situation.If raiding in a group with 3.5 Mages plus yourself I think I'd probably pull the 8 AA's out of Group Haste, dump 5 into AGI to get Bump (for instant stealth / night strike combo) and the drop the other 3 into enhancing Song of Magic.It's a good situation to be in, from a Troubador perspective, where there are multiple AA trees that are useful.  Many classes don't have this luxury.</blockquote><p>From my experience i have only ever had to run song of magic in VP, other zones (looking at act parses) are not an issue for spell resists, and even the 4 points into it that i have thus far is imo more than enough.  the AGI only helps myself, whereas the DA/haste helps both me and any melee/ranged who come along for the ride. </p><p>bump/night strike might be more worthwhile if i get the 12 tone earstone from SoH, but as for now i just use stealth/nightstrike when my other abilities are on refresh.</p>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>My bard tree raid build is almost exactly the same as Ranma. Only one change:</p><p>Raidstarter: 1int - 4-4-4-8sta - 4-4-4-8wis - 6-4-4-8-2Str 4-1</p><p>I moved the two wisdom points from the speed buff to the + to wisdom slot. It seems to me that the resists provided by the extra wisdom might be marginally more useful than the speed. Not much - just a little. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I'm not settled on my troub side build yet.</p>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>I think I am going like this with my troub line for both solo and raid builds:</p><p>Troubador line 5 reverberating shrill5 painful laminations 5 Thunderous overture5 Perfection of the maestro1 sonic interference</p><p>5 cheap shot 5 sonnet5 stifling missile5 Peaceful melody1 harmonization </p><p>3 power ballad 5 aria of magic5 arcane tempo4 elemental tempo5 jester's cap (from peaceful melody)1 resonance</p><p>5 spell rebuff</p>

[Pogopuschel]

<cite>Spash@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've said it before and I'll say it again (and then probably drop the subject because I'm starting to get sick of the same argument over and over) in my opinion it just stupid to waste aa trying to raise your dps as a troubador in raids, spend them raising everyone else's dps because that is why you are in that raid. Personally I think int/wis/sta for us. I let the dirges pick up fortissimo because I'm in a group with squishy casters anyway. </blockquote>Your opinion is well weird, and here's why.<ul><li>You say pick STA line, yet let Dirges pick Fortissimo. Hi, Fortissimo IS in the STA line.</li><li>You say you're here to buff casters. What in the STA line would help them?</li><li>You say pick INT line. What for, more haste? I thought you want to buff mages... Casting skill increase? Please take a look at how many points you waste for a 56%(?) increase of Song of Magic. The spell casters in your group will land 98% of spells regardless. There is so much +disruption buffs within the group and from gear already.</li></ul>So even if what you were saying could be backed up with numbers, your reasoning makes no sense.Every class should put out as much dps as possible while not forgetting about your primary role.So what is the Troub's primary role? That's right, passive buffs and JCap. I don't know about you, but I don't like AFK-playing. AFK playing is boring, AFK players suck.For any play style, the WIS line is kind of a must (4-4-6-8-2 or 4-6-4-8-2). Allegro and DKTM are just awesome.I'd take STA line with (4-4-4-<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> next since as long as you have a second high delay weapon (3.5s or more) you will be better off dual-wielding than with sword & board.So what to do with the rest? Depends on the strength of your raid force.<ul><li>You might want to get STR (6-4-4-8-2) if you and your group struggle living through AEs, even at max. caster range, and put the last point you have whereever you want. Don't take it if your casters are not bright enough to stand at max range on the mobs where it matters, they need to learn that. Keep in mind that Bladedance is nice, but cancels on an individual when they take damage (damage shields, reflected spells, ...) </li><li>If you think AEs are not a problem, take AGI (4-4-4-7) and INT (4-1) for max. personal DPS. There is just nothing else in these trees that would have a major impact on your group.</li><li>Alternatively to AGI/INT, you might try STR (4-1), AGI (4-4-4-3) and INT (4-1) for Bladeturn, so you don't have to joust every AE. Helps keeping your debuffs and DPS up on fights with AEs.</li></ul>Now, over at the Troub tree, like with WIS, there's pretty much no debate whether to take Aria of Magic and JCap enhancements - those are a must. Whether or not you want to take the ward enhancements to the resist enhancing songs is up to you, I think they are awesome although I only have Arcane Chorus. Especially in higher tier raids, SoH and on contested mobs, you'll find yourself healing/warding more than most healers in the raid, simply because the ward is raidwide and replenishes every tick. It also helps people with the Sour Song Choker from Shard of Fear, as the damage taken is partially warded.What else?<ul><li>Definately max out the Sonic tree. The personal DPS gained is pretty nice, but more importantly Sonic Interference lessens many evil things a raid mob will throw at the raid. Take Throne of New Tunaria e.g., if you've ever been there. The statues have a damage shield that has a chance to stun (stifle?) you for 2s, you can reduce that duration (for everyone) to roughly 1.3s.</li><li>Also, Harmonization is awesome and is a must, in my opinion. It enhances the JCap and PoM durations (even stacks with the Bracers from deep Sebilis) to roughly 35s/33s, makes your debuffs last longer (so you save time by not having to reapply them as often) etc etc. Again, a group buff, so they'll love it too. Faster ticking HoTs and DoTs will be welcomed by your group.</li><li>I cannot recommend Demoralization. (Most) mobs just do not have enough CAs to make a big difference. Last I checked, AEs and special abilities count as spells, and are not affected by the ability.</li></ul> <ul><li> </li></ul>

[roces9]

<cite>Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><ul><li>Alternatively to AGI/INT, you might try STR (4-1), AGI (4-4-4-3) and INT (4-1) for Bladeturn <span style="color: #ff0000;">(Turnstrike)</span> , so you don't have to joust every AE. Helps keeping your debuffs and DPS up on fights with AEs.</li></ul></blockquote>I've been wondering about this since a dirge told me to try it last week. Will having Turnstrike** and using it to not have to joust really make up for the 5 points of posion proc that you lose?

[Wluil]

<cite>Spash@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've said it before and I'll say it again (and then probably drop the subject because I'm starting to get sick of the same argument over and over) in my opinion it just stupid to waste aa trying to raise your dps as a troubador in raids, spend them raising everyone else's dps because that is why you are in that raid. Personally I think int/wis/sta for us. I let the dirges pick up fortissimo because I'm in a group with squishy casters anyway. </blockquote>I think I'll file this one under flaming pitchforks. While I realize we're a utility class, and assuming we're going to be with a mostly caster based group, there are only three abilities in the bard tree which apply any benefit to directly effect a casters DPS. Two down the WIS line with Allegro (caste haste) and DKTM, and also the third line on the INT tree which boosts caster stats with Song of Magic. That still leaves a boatload of points to spend on ourselves, about two trees worth. I was just posing some thoughts that maybe the AGI line isn't the best choice because it hasn't scaled well enough between levels 60 and 80. Everyone has to do their part for the groups, and their own DPS in a raid. I personally may be doing half of what our top parsers are currently doing, but that's no reason for me to say, "I can't do DPS, I'm going to give up and let the rest of the raid cary the load."<div></div><div>As far as the poison proc goes, I've heard that this crits via our spell crit rate. Which seemed kinda weird to me. Has this been confirmed somewhere?</div>

[Redhenna]

<cite>Ofaelol@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><ul><li>Alternatively to AGI/INT, you might try STR (4-1), AGI (4-4-4-3) and INT (4-1) for Bladeturn <span style="color: #ff0000;">(Turnstrike)</span> , so you don't have to joust every AE. Helps keeping your debuffs and DPS up on fights with AEs.</li></ul></blockquote>I've been wondering about this since a dirge told me to try it last week. Will having Turnstrike** and using it to not have to joust really make up for the 5 points of posion proc that you lose?</blockquote>I tried it a few months back, and my DPS was not changed noticably, but it was such a nice change to not have to joust, and not be effected by those AEs you just had to deal with.  I cannot ever see giving up INT 4-1, it just makes raiding so much more pleasant.

[Sedenten]

<cite>Wluil wrote:</cite><blockquote><div>As far as the poison proc goes, I've heard that this crits via our spell crit rate. Which seemed kinda weird to me. Has this been confirmed somewhere?</div></blockquote><p>Yes, it should be using our spell crit chance to determine if the proc crits.  Procs like this aren't melee based, but are rather spells that fire off swinging the weapon.  As such, they are affected by spell based foci as well as damage wise by our INT.  Consequently I will mention that Harmonization also affects this poison proc by making the damage over time tick faster.  </p><p>My AA build changes depending.  In RoK I have the normal WIS tree stuff, with STA 4/4/5/8, and AGI 4/4/6/8/1.  I don't know why, but I really like Disappearing Act.  It's kind of handy utility wise since the stealth hits each group member individually (i.e. if one person fudges up and breaks invis it only breaks the stealth on them and not the entire group) plus it can be reapplied over and over without breaking the original stealth.  Raid wise it really doesn't have a ton of use aside from just providing an extra outlet for our one stealth attack, but Bump is usually good enough for that.  Occasionally I'll switch over and do the full STR line for Bladedance depending on what I'm doing at the time.  I don't really raid much at all, so I base my AA builds off group or solo content.</p>

[Jacien]

You want the slowest weapon possible in your main hand.Slow weapons = higher proc rate.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> Slow weapons = higher proc rate.</p><p>Is this true? My understanding is that proc rate is normalized to weapon speed (except for rare exceptions.) This will mean slower weapons will proc more per swing, but the same amount per minute.</p><p> Am I wrong, or are those exceptions not so rare for troubs?</p>

[RanmaBoyType]

<p>can anyone who uses poison aa please post some raidwide parses of where it lands in your chart?  i have never had it go over 4 or 5% of my raidwide dps, thus is why i chose my points in INT tree for the haste boost, which with the long weapons is very noticable (i guess until our dirges get their mythicals, but they do not yet have those)</p>

[Pogopuschel]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Is this true? My understanding is that proc rate is normalized to weapon speed (except for rare exceptions.) This will mean slower weapons will proc more per swing, but the same amount per minute.</p></blockquote>Yes that's how it is.I think Pedigru just worded it wrong and meant "higher proc chance" (per swing).Less swings per minute = higher proc chance per swing in order to have the same amount of procs/min.

[Kelin]

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not knocking what guild anyone raids with.  In this case, I was wondering why you were spending 8 AA's in Group Haste and another 8 in Group Double Attack. </blockquote>In case we are short a dirge.

[Kelin]

<cite>Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Spash@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've said it before and I'll say it again (and then probably drop the subject because I'm starting to get sick of the same argument over and over) in my opinion it just stupid to waste aa trying to raise your dps as a troubador in raids, spend them raising everyone else's dps because that is why you are in that raid. Personally I think int/wis/sta for us. I let the dirges pick up fortissimo because I'm in a group with squishy casters anyway. </blockquote>Your opinion is well weird, and here's why.<ul><li>You say pick STA line, yet let Dirges pick Fortissimo. Hi, Fortissimo IS in the STA line.</li><li>You say you're here to buff casters. What in the STA line would help them?</li><li>You say pick INT line. What for, more haste? I thought you want to buff mages... Casting skill increase? Please take a look at how many points you waste for a 56%(?) increase of Song of Magic. The spell casters in your group will land 98% of spells regardless. There is so much +disruption buffs within the group and from gear already.</li></ul></blockquote>That was a total mistype and I didn't realize it untill just now, STR not STA.

[Jacien]

<cite>Uyaem@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Is this true? My understanding is that proc rate is normalized to weapon speed (except for rare exceptions.) This will mean slower weapons will proc more per swing, but the same amount per minute.</p></blockquote>Yes that's how it is.I think Pedigru just worded it wrong and meant "higher proc chance" (per swing).Less swings per minute = higher proc chance per swing in order to have the same amount of procs/min.</blockquote>Aye, thank you for the correction =)