If the Shadowmen seek Oblivion, why not just destroy themselves?

[Cusashorn]

<p>This is a question some of you may have asked, and I know I have.</p><p>If there is some civilization or force who seeks to end existance, and thusly, end themselves from existance, then why don't they just end themselves and not care about everything else? You'd think something like that would make sense, right?</p><p>I am theorizing: What if the Shadowmen and the creatures of the Void wish to end thier existance, but are NOT ABLE TO unless they accumulate enough power in such a matter that destroys other planets in the process? Murder-Suicide, if you will.</p><p>I've been spending the last few weeks in the OOLS collecting the books inside. So far I have found every one except Rememberances: DyzAx and Norrath.</p><p>A part of Remembrances - Tel'riia'mil'an'ane'ie states:</p><hr />Septrain 9:74 - "The triple moon will darken and haze, causing all those who see with eyes to know of the impending doom. They will seek solace within the Black Tower, knowing this to be their false salvation."Septrain 9:75 - "And as the Last Night comes, the ruby oceans will vomit forth the Pillar of Shadow. The true believers who have been washed with the blessing of freedom will now be released of their tenure. All that will remain will be those who did not choose."Septrain 9:76 - "The division of light and dark will come to those who embraced the shadows. Those who did not choose during these dark times will be consumed by the light that is not, for so it shall be."Septrain 9:77 - "The men of shadows shall show their face and it will be a gaping maw of victory.<b><span style="color: #ff6600;"> The last horn shall sound from the Obelisk of Despair and all will know the cycle has ended.</span></b> Darkness shall wash over the land and all will know nothing." <hr /><p>I am looking at things from a different angle. Many will think that the sound coming forth from the Obelisk of Despair will simply mean that they have completed thier objective, which taking it at face value is probably just that... </p><p>But what if it means that they can finally end thier own existance because they have accumulated enough power through the planet itself to destroy the Obelisk of Despair, and thier connections to the void and all existance?</p><p>I'm probably just grasping at straws here, but that is one theory I am exploring. We're all aware that the shadowmen are around us. Maybe if Norrath itself would finally acknowledge that something was happening, this whole blasted story wouldn't be so stale and uninteresting. What if there was a way that we adventurers could convince the void creatures to end thier existance without ending ours in the process? Diplomatic negotiations surely won't work, but what if we tricked them into believing we were helping them, and then take advantage and get rid of them once and for all?</p>

[Meirril]

Umm...this is Norrath's "end of days" prophacy. Does it indicate anywhere that this is also the shadowmen's perspective? Doom for Norrath equals a feasting day with a huge stockpile of tasty soul energy and a side of extra planar energy for later as far as I know.

[Rashaak]

Could it be they seek a way OUT of Oblivion?

[ganng]

<p>I tend to not give them that much credit as a "race" (for lack of a better term).  There is a conscience that is within the void that uses powers at its disposal to manipulate and control these void beings.  The beings themselves are merely foot soldiers completely and totally lacking in free will.  They are sent forth on missions and perform their tasks without regard or intent other then what they are given.</p><p>Granted there is the nuance that they do seem to amass information.  I attribute this to one of two things:</p><ul><li>A "Day of the Dead" esque remembrance of a life since forgotten that drives them to curious actions</li><li>The controlling conscience from the void is interested in this information because it will enable it to complete its task of returning all that is back to a state of nothingness. </li></ul>

[Cusashorn]

Thats why I said "Culture or Force" to be more generalized.

[teddyboy4]

<cite>ganng wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I tend to not give them that much credit as a "race" (for lack of a better term).  There is a conscience that is within the void that uses powers at its disposal to manipulate and control these void beings.  The beings themselves are merely foot soldiers completely and totally lacking in free will.  They are sent forth on missions and perform their tasks without regard or intent other then what they are given.</p><p>Granted there is the nuance that they do seem to amass information.  I attribute this to one of two things:</p><ul><li>A "Day of the Dead" esque remembrance of a life since forgotten that drives them to curious actions</li><li>The controlling conscience from the void is interested in this information because it will enable it to complete its task of returning all that is back to a state of nothingness. </li></ul></blockquote>I disagree with this, at least when it comes to the Shadowmen. It's been discovered that the Shadowmen are the remains of one of Norrath's earliest races who were banished to the void for some, as of yet, unrevealed reason. I think that many of the races that are part of the Void army are most likely unwilling, and unwitting, slaves, but I believe the Shadowmen are sentient and everything they do is a part of their, and their mysterious <strike>goddess's</strike> leader's (see what I did there? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /> ) plan to escape from the Void.I'm not quite sure on the whole consuming souls and destroying worlds thing yet though. My belief is that they must consume the souls maintain their strength and break through the barrier, and I think that all the worlds they have destroyed were just fuel for the tanks, so to say. I think Norrath, and it's pantheon, have always been the main target of the Void army and their leader, and everything along the way was just practice and/or pit-stops to fill the tanks in preparation for Norrath's invasion.

[Rashaak]

<p>Not necessarily....</p><p>From my understanding, the Void really has no concept of time or place, it's just 'emptiness' so to speak. I believe the Shadowmen are actually the Shissar, but to avoid the Green Mist, must become a simbient type being with a Norrathian so the Green Mist can't find them. The result is the soul of that mortal being is consumed into the Void. Remember they speak of the mortals as 'hosts'.</p><p>So...I don't think they seek to destroy themselves, I think they want to destroy the 'void' that they are in, and live once again on Norrath, but must first find a way to destroy the green mist. However...the outcome may be that they destroy Norrath in the process, which is what they are trying to avoid, and why the seek the Flower of Growth from Woushi and those directly touched by the gods themselves....</p>

[ganng]

<p>While they may seem to have agendas their tiered and highly structured society leads me to believe that the ones that we encounter are merely foot soldiers with little to no free will.  Granted they may believe and appear to us that they do but when you look at the big picture they may very well just have been placed in their station due to their nature.  They are freely allowed to fulfill their desires and pursue their agendas because they are ultimately fulfilling the agenda of the controlling entity.  Think of the whole system like an ant hive all the ants serve a highly specialized function and have a measure of free will that allows them to appear as individuals but when you break it down to the most basic elements they are merely functioning as a cog in the machine that keeps the hive functional... Now just envision that there is a force controlling the various ant hives to serve it's own agenda beyond the scope of knowledge of the ants.</p><p>While the void does exist outside what we know as time I would like to believe that they are not the Shissar.  While it is a plausible plot twist I would really hope that the development team would not do this considering the presence and form of the shadowmen in EQ1... it would just seem like an easy way out of a situation that if handled differently would open the door to so many great possibilities. </p>

[Drager]

to answer the original post....... how does that insure that existence goes to oblivion if a force wants to destroy everything then that force must destroy everything and die with it.ok on the shadow men. from what i have read and heard there were shadow men in Eq1 as well as Shissar so that would rule out that whole senerio.that race that was one of the first could have been the namelesses try at creating a mortal race (i dont know but im sort of hope so)now onto the shadow men being sentient. i believe there should be sentient shadowmen. the only forms of shadow men we have seen are trying to kill us. the more intelligent ones would be asigned to intelligence gathering. and the most intelligent most likely don't get sent to a hostile planet where every person is armed to the teeth  and has a psychotic kill everything attitude. any way im not ready to give up on there being good shadow men as far as we know there could be many.shadow men have not ever entered norrath. they use a magic form or take the body of a person to enter norrath. this either means they want to stay discreet (which they do a crappy job of with their giant towers) or they cant enter norrath which is more realistic. so we cant really clarify what the shadow men are or if they are being controlled or not.    

[therodge]

2 things that bother me cusa, one being the shadow men can ultimatly die we know we can kill them, if they wanted death so badly wouldent they simply drop their unworldy anchor and let the void swallow them into non-exsistance? also the second thing being im 99% sure their sentent in some form, as i remember in eq1 the temple of ro being opposed to them and one shadowed man trying to help the temple, though i may have been dreaming this all up but still.

[Drager]

i have a question. lets say you are channeling yourself into another world(like the shadow men) if that magic form you have created dies do you die?maybe we haven't killed any shadow men maybe we have just killed their mortal form on norrath.

[Cusashorn]

<cite>therodge wrote:</cite><blockquote>2 things that bother me cusa, one being the shadow men can ultimatly die we know we can kill them, if they wanted death so badly wouldent they simply drop their unworldy anchor and let the void swallow them into non-exsistance? also the second thing being im 99% sure their sentent in some form, as i remember in eq1 the temple of ro being opposed to them and one shadowed man trying to help the temple, though i may have been dreaming this all up but still.</blockquote>I never questioned thier intellgence. The fact that they can speak is proof of sentients.

[Drager]

<span class="postbody"><span style="color: #990000;">MIS POST</span></span>

[Drager]

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>A part of Remembrances - Tel'riia'mil'an'ane'ie states:</p><hr />Septrain 9:74 - "The triple moon will darken and haze, causing all those who see with eyes to know of the impending doom. They will seek solace within the Black Tower, knowing this to be their false salvation."Septrain 9:75 - "And as the Last Night comes, the ruby oceans will vomit forth the Pillar of Shadow. The true believers who have been washed with the blessing of freedom will now be released of their tenure. All that will remain will be those who did not choose."Septrain 9:76 - "The division of light and dark will come to those who embraced the shadows. Those who did not choose during these dark times will be consumed by the light that is not, for so it shall be."<span class="postbody"><span style="color: #990000;">5. In theguise of harmony the mirror is flipped and chaos walks among us. "Ihave no idea at this time. Chaos? Guise of harmony? Makes little senseto me. -SV"</span></span>Septrain 9:77 - "The men of shadows shall show their face and it will be a gaping maw of victory.<b><span style="color: #ff6600;"> The last horn shall sound from the Obelisk of Despair and all will know the cycle has ended.</span></b> Darkness shall wash over the land and all will know nothing." <hr /></blockquote><span class="postbody"><span style="color: #990000;">7. Cleft intwine at the dawn of time, the two shall stand once more in a unitedfront against that which brings the end. "Ahh, this is your favorite,my master. I believe this will be very crucial to your research. Itrust you already know what this references. -SV"   i believe this has to do with the split worlds and shadow men<span style="color: #ffffff;">last quote- does anyone think that these visions could have been misunderstood? could it be that we are the evil ones (or being controlled by them) and the shadow men just want us to be delivered from ignorance to see the true chaos of the gods and norrath. all we know of the shadow men. is the research that has been done and the prophecy the gods send us. can we be certain that  we  are not the ones being deceived . who told us to go running into black towers and kill everything inside?</span></span></span>

[Drager]

"The event Rodcet Nife will live with the updated 45. A voluntary mystery surrounding this event and all will be increasingly impressive leading to large-scale invasions of the Empty creatures around the world for all levels."heres the translated paragraph about Rodcet Nife + the shadow men

[Coniaric]

<cite>Drager@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>A part of Remembrances - Tel'riia'mil'an'ane'ie states:</p><hr />Septrain 9:74 - "The triple moon will darken and haze, causing all those who see with eyes to know of the impending doom. They will seek solace within the Black Tower, knowing this to be their false salvation."Septrain 9:75 - "And as the Last Night comes, the ruby oceans will vomit forth the Pillar of Shadow. The true believers who have been washed with the blessing of freedom will now be released of their tenure. All that will remain will be those who did not choose."Septrain 9:76 - "The division of light and dark will come to those who embraced the shadows. Those who did not choose during these dark times will be consumed by the light that is not, for so it shall be."<span class="postbody"><span style="color: #990000;">5. In theguise of harmony the mirror is flipped and chaos walks among us. "Ihave no idea at this time. Chaos? Guise of harmony? Makes little senseto me. -SV"</span></span>Septrain 9:77 - "The men of shadows shall show their face and it will be a gaping maw of victory.<b><span style="color: #ff6600;"> The last horn shall sound from the Obelisk of Despair and all will know the cycle has ended.</span></b> Darkness shall wash over the land and all will know nothing." <hr /></blockquote><span class="postbody"><span style="color: #990000;">7. Cleft intwine at the dawn of time, the two shall stand once more in a unitedfront against that which brings the end. "Ahh, this is your favorite,my master. I believe this will be very crucial to your research. Itrust you already know what this references. -SV"   i believe this has to do with the split worlds and shadow men<span style="color: #ffffff;">last quote- does anyone think that these visions could have been misunderstood? could it be that we are the evil ones (or being controlled by them) and the shadow men just want us to be delivered from ignorance to see the true chaos of the gods and norrath. all we know of the shadow men. is the research that has been done and the prophecy the gods send us. can we be certain that  we  are not the ones being deceived . who told us to go running into black towers and kill everything inside?</span></span></span></blockquote><p>Radical thought.</p><p>But no, I don't believe so.</p><p>The Shadowmen are the evil ones ... they take over mortal bodies, expelling the original souls in the process ... by intent and purpose ... they basically destroyed/eliminated the original soul so that they can inhabit the body. Those souls are used as fuel for their machinery or as consumption.</p><p>Norrathians are being deceived by them ... if anyone follow the Stargate series, especially the part about the Ori ... this has a similiar concept. On the world of Prime, in the interview with the leader:</p><p><i>"We have closed our minds for too long. Secrets from long ago are being revealed. Come to us and we will show you. Those who wish to know the lost knowledge will be taught and become like us. Those who reject it will regret their decision. But not for too long..." </i></p><p>People are being seduced by a promise of regained knowledge and power that associated with it. They went into the Obelisks and were never be seen again. What happened to them? Were they transformed into newest members of the Shadowmen? Had they been stripped of their souls and their bodies be inhabited by the Shadowmen? Whatever it was ... it wasn't great for those who entered.</p><p>When something sounded too extremely good to be true ... it usually was. The Shadowmen were smart enough to know there will be a huge rebellion/resistence if people really knew what was going on behind the scenes. No ... the Shadowmen are going in with uses of temptation, curiosity, and seduction. People are going to be drawn in like moths to the flame. They are going to ignore the warnings by others around them and walk unheedingly into clutches of the Shadowmen.</p><p>"In guise of harmony ... chaos walks among us ..."</p><p>Nothing is further from the truth than this simple prophecy. </p><p>Who would believe an unsuspecting little halfling like Fiddy Bobick could be this evil, treacherous, deceiving entity who would kill you without a blink of eye?</p><p>Yeah ... that's quite a thought.</p>

[Drager]

very well put and so i must agree. but what makes good and evildoes a white rose not have thorns?and does a black rose not have beauty? what the shadow men do is evil, but for what cause?to become whole again, to right an injustice?were the gods not evil in their ways when rather than deal with a problem  set  it to flame and watched as life was sent to nothingness.  i will assure you there is great good and evil in all.<span class="postbody"><span class="postbody"><span style="color: #990000;">In the guise of harmony the mirror is flipped and chaos walks among us.who created the fake harmony the fake light that shadows over us?order has always turned to chaos and with the return of the gods we have seen the return of order. with the return of the shadow men we will see the return of chaos                                                                and it will be beautiful </span></span></span>

[Coniaric]

<p>Hmm ... the philosophy of good and evil ... and the moral ambiguity there is.</p><p>How would one be objective to the nature of evil and good? Wouldn't the base nature of each define them? Should we determine an universal, transcendent defination of evil/good ... or ... should they be determined by one's social or cultural background?</p><p>Is genocide, the way the Shadowmen are doing, acceptable? One should consider what they are doing and how. The Shadowmen took the genocide one step further ... they proceed to take the souls of the deceased ... it was not simply a war of material world, it is also a fight on the other side ... the Ethernere for the Norrathians. Perhaps the true meaning of Oblivion, the nothingness, is nonexistence of life <u>and</u> afterlife. For those lost souls, there are no reunion of family and friends. They died twofold ... from the physical plane then again from afterlife, as they were consumed by the Shadowmen.</p><p>By term of justification, do the Norrathians deserve this fate as delivered by the Shadowmen? Because of a (possible) wrong brought upon the Shadowmen by someone else (i.e. the deities) in distant past?</p><p>I'll think this comment: "Two wrongs do not make a right" is appropriate here. This is a logical fallacy. Would an wrong act cancel another wrong act? ... No, it would not. What happened in the past is bad enough ... but doing it to someone else is even worse.</p><p>Also, how do we know what a divine mind is thinking? Would the gods approve of the consumption of the souls? Wouldn't this act be heinous to them ... so atrocious that they as one banish an entire civilization to oblivion as a punishment?</p><p>How's that for a thought? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Drager]

good and evil. one can define it as motive or as action how can one be good and evil?the gods who wiped a race, a culture from the face of norrath.yet look at the beauty they have created look at the destruction they have caused. the shadow men who only strive to live to exist once moreyet battle the innocent and steal their solesyou are right two wrongs do not make a right.but is that not justice?the punishment for a wrong. lets start at the beginning the shadow men strove for power.the gods feared this then sent them to oblivionnow the shadow men wish to seek justice for these crimes.                           now who is wrong         the shadow men for striving for power        or the gods for destroying them for it                   we will leave that for nowthe only true good that can be discerned are the inhabitants of Norrath who are only protecting themselves from destruction.we see the influence of both sides and turn to help our creators.yet we forget that they have turned on one race what stops them from turning on another.yet we are wary of the shadow men who have attacked  many individuals. there is always light in darkness and and darkness in light