COERCER LU45 ACTIVE ON TEST! - Details [Archive]

XFnarX

04-30-2008, 09:17 PM

First off, GO TEST AND /FEEDBACK THE RESULTS PLEASE!Here's what the test notes listed.Coercer Changes:Possession has been renamed to Possess Essence. It now takes control of your target’s essence and makes them into a pet that you can control.Thoughtstones are no longer required as components for spells.The Despotic Mind line will now trigger off player based spell attacks. In addition there is a new level 80 version called Tyrranous Mind The other reactive lines have changed to be based on taking damage from when a spell hits the NPC.Puppetmaster has received an additional puppet.The Harmonious link line now reduces hate position when the player takes a melee hit.Enchanter Changes:The stun and stifle lines will now do damage rather than drain power.Enchanters will now also receive Call Servant and Shrink Servant at level 10.AA Changes:Enchanter Volatile Magic will now be a 15% boost that is always on.CoercerTashania will now debuff all magical resistances but slightly less than before.Coercive Healing will now give additional bonuses to reactive heal amount, beneficial casting time and beneficial reuse time.Manaward now acts as a true ward with a ratio of 1 health to 1.5 power.Discuss! (and yes these are copy/pasted from the test notes directly, this is not a teaser.)

XFnarX

04-30-2008, 09:23 PM

I looked at the actual changes by logging in... honestly. We went from ok DPS to HOLY BABY JESBUS IN A CAN type DPS. This is way to over powered... I like it. But I don't see everything happening.

Rijacki

04-30-2008, 10:08 PM

I did my /testcopy after the raid last night with my 80 coercer (if I'd gotten any new loot, I wanted to have it there, too <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ). I'll /testcopy with my baby level 28 coercer tonight or soon (want to test the mid-range, too, ya know). The baby just got the first of the * Mind spells when she dinged and I need to get the adept I to put in her inventory before doing the copy <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I just got home and am paaaaaatching (and I need to finish up some work for work... bleah).

XFnarX

04-30-2008, 10:22 PM

<img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3261/2455065305_8937f6e3e4_b.jpg" alt="" border="0" /><img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2115/2455065331_8a173edec7_o.jpg" alt="" border="0" />I like the Coercive healing and Mana Ward changes. Maybe the CataMind change and Possession, but everything else is TO much. Ok, NOW discuss =p

Rijacki

04-30-2008, 11:18 PM

So funny.... 6 people online: one anonymous, 4 coercers, and 1 shadowknight. Hey!!! What's that shadowknight doing on -our- server! The nerve!*smirk*I'm heading to the Wall. I've screen shot my current spells on Test and will do the same on Live for the side by sides. I'm going to pretend I'm a ranger and go play with the Wall a bit <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (yes, I am running ACT)

Jesdyr

04-30-2008, 11:56 PM

Anyone else see a problem with possession being 3 Conc ? this means it is either charm or possess essence .. which isnt too bad but why would you use that when you can use charm? .. Ok it is safer and can be used on raids, but it is worth the 3 Conc in either of those settings?

KamidariTuibumbi

05-01-2008, 12:40 AM

The dps felt pretty high to me, but I've never really soloed with a dps class before, so I don't know how to compare. I was getting some pretty high numbers from act on some fights, but I know those fights also lasted longer than act said. Maybe it doesn't start until there's damage or something? I'm talking 2kdps variance on the parses, so I'm reluctant to post numbers because they were so different.Our dps definitely seemed pretty bursty: Spend a few seconds rooting, debuffing, and stacking reactives on the mob, then start casting and watch its hp drop like a rock.I think at 3 conc, the possession pet will pretty much be relegated to solo situations. It seemed to be only putting out like 100-150dps, using nuking mobs in JW which would have put out much more than that when charmed. Clearly I don't expect it to be anywhere near as powerful as a charmed pet, but I don't think its dps anywhere near justifies using it in a group (or raid) instead of dps buffing the melee toons. I would think 1 conc, with a restriction that it can't be cast when charm is active would be more reasonable. I didn't really test possessing too many different mobs, but it did work on a lvl100 epic x4 guard, but didn't work on General V'Deers. I thought that the pet shrink and call spells were nice surprises, and I liked how you could possess a mob at pretty much any distance, because you're the target of the spell, not the mob. Also, it was nice to be able to take a bio break without worrying about coming back dead. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />So far, I think it looks very promising!

Rijacki

05-01-2008, 01:25 AM

The DPS felt a bit high but.... *giggles like an impish school girl* That is definitely some bit of fun! I had to go off an find a yellow heroic, Eldrig the Young *laugh*. But.. umm.. the elite Dracuruion fireguard (on the road to VP) reminded me I am squishy and only one hit can make me into paste *laugh*.I kept needing to remind myself to hit certain spells I generally avoid unless I need them.. stun, silence, ya know...3 concentration on Posses means we still won't get a pet in groups or raids because the concentration is needed for buffs. I wish they'd come up with a different mechanism that would make charm and possess not usable at the same time while making posses viable in groups/raids.But.. damage... oh my holy... if I could get the fight to last a fair amount of time, even without being kitted up to the gills in the best stuff (I'm kitted in good stuff, not great stuff), I can see easy 2K happening on a regular basis. But... the long fights are even more paramount than before. Other than The Wall, Eldrig was my longest fight and even he died way too soon to get the full range in motion. Even without getting a good rhythm with the new spells and their damage maximised, 2K parse.<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/Eldrig_ACT.png" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/Eldrig_ACT_small.png" border="0" alt="" /></a>Click for larger view.I'm doing some trim on the spell screenshots I took...Almost forgot the pie!<a href="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/Eldrig_ACT_pie.png" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/Eldrig_pie.png" alt="" border="0" /></a>Click for the damage numbers.

Agaxal

05-01-2008, 02:10 AM

If things stay the way they are, high-end raid coercers will be doing 9k-10k a fight.its that OP, its not even funny.agressiv

XFnarX

05-01-2008, 03:03 AM

I know isn't it funny =DAnd just being curious is...<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/Eldrig_ACT_pie.png" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/Eldrig_pie.png" border="0" alt="" /></a>A raid or solo parse? And how much damage did you do. Because my chart looks totally different unless the mob is AE happy.

Nuhus

05-01-2008, 07:36 AM

Xethren

05-01-2008, 10:44 AM

So far the changes have yeilded very positive results. Im quite happy with them. Possession takes 3 Con because its now a Charm, so to speak. a perma-till-you-zone charm in fact. Im not that high yet to get it, but it will be so nice to have a pet and be able to go afk without worring about coming back taking a dirt nap.

Rijacki

05-01-2008, 11:01 AM

<cite>XFnarX wrote:</cite><blockquote>I know isn't it funny =DAnd just being curious is...<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/Eldrig_ACT_pie.png" target="_blank"><img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/Eldrig_pie.png" border="0" alt="" /></a>A raid or solo parse? And how much damage did you do. Because my chart looks totally different unless the mob is AE happy.</blockquote>Solo with a dragonfly pet. If you click the pie in my post up there, you'll get the whole damage breakdown from ACT.Note: I do have a mixture of master I and adept III with one adept I (silence). I have a mixture of T8 legendary and fabled with a few treasured (I think). My gear is a mixture of T8 quest rewards and some T8 (T1 &T2) raid drops. I also only have my fabled epic. I'm in Legion of the White Rose on Guk, we're only raiding T1/T2 and SoH. I copied Rjack right after our raid on Tues (Korsha up to the twins, an enchanter piece dropped that the illusionist got *sniffle*, and Thugga, didn't get anything but debt there, too *sniffle*). Like I said, I'm in good stuff not great *grin*To give the devs a fuller picture, we really need to have more coercers of all types, fully raid kitted and mostly mastered down to a mix of mastercrafted and quest rewards with adepts and even at different level ranges. (I just did a /testcopy on my level 28 coercer, after getting her new adept Is *laugh*).Oh... and why would the mob being AE happy have anything to do with the pie? This is on Test Copy with the new spells that don't rely on the mob doing anything except stand there and die?

Nor

05-01-2008, 11:12 AM

So the manaward AA - If I'm looking at it correctly, a manapool of 5,000 will give you a ward of 3,500?(5,000 x 1.05 = 5,250 / 1.5 = 3,500)I assume it eats up the mana as it absorbs the damage, or does it drain your mana all in one shot? What happens if it expires and there is damage left on the ward, do you get it back into your mana pool, does it heal damage like a shaman ward, or does it just get lost into the black reaches of the netherworld?

Rarlin

05-01-2008, 11:18 AM

<cite>Noruh wrote:</cite><blockquote>So the manaward AA - If I'm looking at it correctly, a manapool of 5,000 will give you a ward of 3,500?(5,000 x 1.05 = 5,250 / 1.5 = 3,500)I assume it eats up the mana as it absorbs the damage, or does it drain your mana all in one shot? What happens if it expires and there is damage left on the ward, do you get it back into your mana pool, does it heal damage like a shaman ward, or does it just get lost into the black reaches of the netherworld?</blockquote>Actually, I believe it only uses 95% of your powerpool, so with that in mind, a 5000 powerpool would be:5000 * .95 = 4750 -> 4750 / 1.5 = 3167At least, that's the way I understood it from the notes and descriptions.

Nor

05-01-2008, 11:35 AM

That makes more sense, the remaining questions still stand though...<ul><li>Does the mana get drained initially, or as the damage is absorbed?</li><li>What happens if the ward expired?</li><li>Does it heal for the reamaining mana/damage?</li><li>Does the remaining ward go back into your power pool as unused mana?</li><li>Does it just dissapear?</li></ul>

XFnarX

05-01-2008, 12:35 PM

<cite>Noruh wrote:</cite><blockquote>That makes more sense, the remaining questions still stand though...<ul><li>Does the mana get drained initially, or as the damage is absorbed?</li><li>What happens if the ward expired?</li><li>Does it heal for the reamaining mana/damage?</li><li>Does the remaining ward go back into your power pool as unused mana?</li><li>Does it just dissapear?</li></ul></blockquote>It basically works like the defiler Soul Ward. You click the button, you lose ALL your power down to 5% marker instantly and it wards the target for 1 point of damage for every 1.5 points of power you sacrificed. You get nothing back.

Nor

05-01-2008, 12:45 PM

Wow, thats pretty intense....not sure if that seems worth it, or not?

Dallun

05-01-2008, 12:50 PM

Well... seems like a great use of the mythical now doesn't it?Dallun/FioneWarden/IllusionistAntonia Bayle

Andu

05-01-2008, 02:11 PM

Looking at those spell descriptions, my guess is that the reactives are supposed to have only 3 triggers not 5. That would help explain the overpowered dps somewhat.

Quarr

05-01-2008, 02:14 PM

I just viewed my coercers spells on test and they are different from the ones posted.Hostage 1506-1825 m1Absolute 842-985, 214-262/2.6 A3Intrepid Focus 1150-1390 A3Spell Curse 1346-1630 A3Cataclysmic Mind 1174-1420 m1Intelligence is 815. Have they been changed already? Or does Intelligence make that much of a difference?

Eriol

05-01-2008, 02:45 PM

Why wasn't the "not very good reward" of the risk vs reward for Charm itself addressed? And what about the mid-level coercers who do not have possession yet? We need to deal with the "unique aspects" of charm for all that time?Personally I'd ditch Charm entirely and extend the possess essence thing all the way down to lowbie levels, and make it as powerful as any other perma-pet from the summoner classes, it's just the type of mob you cast it on determines if it's more melee dps, tank, or caster. Charm is used so seldom for serious CC that I'd completely give it up if the reliable pet was there.And even if you ditch my last paragraph entirely, charm is NOT balanced at 3 concentration slots, and IMO neither is the new possession at 3 slots. There just pretty much always seems to be better things to do with those slots IMO.Though take all this with a grain of salt, as my coercer alt is mid-level, not top.

Alfgand

05-01-2008, 06:25 PM

<cite>Eriol wrote:</cite><blockquote>Why wasn't the "not very good reward" of the risk vs reward for Charm itself addressed? And what about the mid-level coercers who do not have possession yet? We need to deal with the "unique aspects" of charm for all that time?Personally I'd ditch Charm entirely and extend the possess essence thing all the way down to lowbie levels, and make it as powerful as any other perma-pet from the summoner classes, it's just the type of mob you cast it on determines if it's more melee dps, tank, or caster. Charm is used so seldom for serious CC that I'd completely give it up if the reliable pet was there.And even if you ditch my last paragraph entirely, charm is NOT balanced at 3 concentration slots, and IMO neither is the new possession at 3 slots. There just pretty much always seems to be better things to do with those slots IMO.Though take all this with a grain of salt, as my coercer alt is mid-level, not top.</blockquote>Charm is fine the way it is. Charm is your soloing friend. Its not for raids and its seldom used in groups. Sometimes it is nice in groups but you need a Coercer friendly/educated/experianced group and those are rare.

xpraetorianx

05-01-2008, 06:40 PM

actually the dps is not that high... you cant accurately test dps on the flimsy solo con mobs in the game, even Dirges i know can hit a 3k Parse.....With the recasts of both spells burst or not, in a raid setting its not going to be that high. You guys are all going gagga over droppign a pittily solo mob or mini heroic pretty fast when a swashy or brigand can still drop it faster.

Nuhus

05-01-2008, 06:49 PM

It's better than it was. If I could find 23 people on test copy willing to go raid EH or something, I'd be more than willing.

Jeepned2

05-02-2008, 02:46 AM

First of all...to those of you on test and feeding us this information, Thank you.Yes I still have a lot of questions about some of this stuff. Do I think that possession is going to be used by me very much? No not really. But still nice to have in my bag of tricks. As for the Manaward, for me as an MT group, raiding Coercer, this is HUGE. Yes it drops me to 5% mana, so what? I have 11.5K mana self buffed. So that's an extra 5.75K ward for the MT? Did I figure that right? Dang straight that's HUGE. I admit that you wouldn't want to use this all the time it's up. First, it would destroy your DPS. Second, it just isn't needed every time it's up. But, there are numerous timed AOE's in VP that this could easily save a raid from wiping by saving the MT's rear end. Another HUGE upgrade that hasn't really been talked about yet is Coercive Healing. The recast and casting speed addition is going to be a big deal to the MT Mystic/Defiler.Overall, I really like what I have seen so far. Again are a few of the spells a little disappointing? Sure. I wasn't expecting near as much as we gotten though. So no complaining here. If Possession doesn't work just the way we had hoped, oh well. The time and effort that SoE has put in the rest of the changes for us more then makes up for any disappointment I might have in a few of the spell changes.Do I expect to see a huge just in our dps? No I really don't. An increase yes, but not huge. When the raid leader finds out about the changes to Peaceful Link, Manaward, Tas, and Coercive Healing and as few of our other new toys, he/she will be expecting us to provide that utility to it's maximum. These changes have done one GIGANTIC favor for us though, they have reaffirmed our position in the MT group. For now at least I think that guilds that had started to sit their Coercers are going to be screaming to get them back in the MT group. And for the guilds that got rid of their Coercers, they are really going to wish they hadn't.So if it goes live as is, I will be doing the happy dance for a very long time. Well until the next GU comes out.

Kerri

05-02-2008, 03:02 AM

Overall I like some of the new changes. I just wish that we can get a raid together on Test because the soloing mobs is not a good reflection on what raid dps will be like.Possession really needs to go back to the drawing board. Taking 3 con slots and being a pretty poor pet why bother with it when you can use Charm. If I wanted a safe pet I would have rolled an Illusionist.

Rijacki

05-02-2008, 03:39 AM

Not the best possible presentation (trying for quick, not elegant), but some side by side comparisons to ponder.<a href="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/Comparison.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Coercer Changes comparisons</a>I've got my gear listed as well as my current stats when taking the screenshots (though I might have had an int drink I just ran out of).I was going to try to get melee Charm/Possess parses but Test seemed to be down when I tried to get on.. but that gave me more time to wrestle with the comparison page.As I said before, I am neither the best equipped nor do I have the ideal spell line up (not even on Live), but I'm not horrid, either *grin*

Outerspace

05-02-2008, 08:29 AM

I'm disappointed that Kozak has not sorted out all the power drains such as Gaze and Brainshock.Posession is still a pointless novelty. At the moment from what I have read at least it seems like a single version of puppetmaster that's always on. Personally I think it would be cooler to have the possessed mob give our group a buff of some sort, so if you posess a caster you gain a few spell damage or some crit, or if it's a melee you gain some +DPS and/or +haste. That way the spell would at least have some value and some reason to use it.Apart from that changes all look good so far. Am I right in thinking Spell Curse, Cataclysmic Mind and Hostage are exactly the same in all but name? So if they are all on a mob and I fire a Hemorrhage at it, I get three procs?(waiting for my coercer to be copied)

Dallun

05-02-2008, 10:04 AM

Rijacki,Stupid question, but does hostage, Spell curse, etc, also proc on a tick of a DoT? I know it shouldn't... but all too often should be and reality don't seem to match up.Dallun/FioneWarden/IllusionistAntonia Bayle

Outerspace

05-02-2008, 10:24 AM

It doesnt

Kerri

05-02-2008, 10:35 AM

I'm guessing that Brainshock and Disseccting Gaze has not been changed yet is due to that it does damage and power drain. Brainshock also returns power to you.

Outerspace

05-02-2008, 10:55 AM

As I typed my previous message it seems my copy went through so I have had a play with it. It seems quite ironic that the hype about these changes is all about power drain components of stuns and stifles being turned into damage yet I kill so fast on test I don't even need to stun! The changes to Spell Curse and Hostage provide some incredible burst damage especially coupled with Tashiana. Spell Curse is particularly awesome with an encounter: with more than 5 mobs in the encounter if you apply Spell Curse and then use any of our AE abilities, say Shock Wave, you are hitting 5 mobs in that encounter for the best part of 10k if you get crits with both. My best solo so far is: EXT DPS: an ambushing grindhoof: (00:02) | Total DPS: 10036.00 Siris 20072 | 10036.00 Generally on solo mobs I'm hitting around 4500 DPS if everything is up. This is with no pet and no possession pet. I know it's a stupid comment really because you can't judge a class based on burst damage, but previously even with a decent pet it took 15 seconds or so to kill anything. After the initial burst I am going to be limited by reactives being up but for solo if I root, apply reactives, Tashiana, Cataclysmic Mind, Psyche, Hemorrhage and Brainshock the mob is dead in under 5 seconds. This is with Master 1 reactives and full points in Cataclysmic Mind, Hostage and Spell Curse. At a guess in a raid I think the changes probably add over 1000 DPS on a fight several minutes long, since each reactive has around 15 secs recast and all the charges should get used up in that time. Mr Kozak may as well nerf this now because it's only going to cause people to whinge about it, however I would like to see what the bigger picture actually is. I am curious as to whom the damage from Hostage and Spell Curse is attributed to within a group or raid situation. If they behave like other spells of the same type, am I right in thinking the damage would be attributed to the attacker rather than the person that applied the buff? Mana Ward seems pretty cool, but I would prefer a slightly lower recast and the ability to cast it out of combat: at the moment it's very situational - and pretty useless for a solo/group player - whereas other classes tend to get finishers that are used all the time, such as Illusory Arm, or ones that are an always-on buff. Tashiana does not proc Cataclysmic Mind: I think it probably should since CM states that it procs on successful spell attacks and not damage. Power drains on Brainshock and Dissecting Gaze need fixing.I am getting issues casting Cataclysmic Mind: if the mob I am fighting is targetting my pets and I try to cast it, I receive the message "target is not grouped" unless I detarget the mob or rename my pet to my character name.Edit: Vs the Wall with no pets or possession my numbers are around the following: EXT DPS: training wall: (00:58 ) | Total DPS: 2198.50 Siris 127513 | 2198.50 Bear in mind that Hostage wont cast on the wall, I guess because it does not fight back. I guess that needs fixing now with it being a completely different spell. Puppetmaster seems to do mental damage now. Don't know if it always did, but with M1 Puppetmaster and Tashiana/Psyche/Asylum applied they hit for 200-375 each giving a dot of roughly 1k per tick. PS try Possessing the wall.

Rijacki

05-02-2008, 11:33 AM

<cite>Dallun wrote:</cite><blockquote>Rijacki,Stupid question, but does hostage, Spell curse, etc, also proc on a tick of a DoT? I know it shouldn't... but all too often should be and reality don't seem to match up.</blockquote>Not a stupid question.I haven't gone through my logs yet to see exactly what is proc'ing what. I also want to spend some time looking through to see exactly what spells Cataclysmic Mind proc on since it's not on hostic casts it's on spell attacks. Some of our spells previously wouldn't proc the epic with that same designation.I would just link my 30 April log from Test (I am keeping them seperate by test run *grin*), but there's also a lot of coercer chatter and.. while it was on a public channel, I don't know if they'd want it posted for the masses.Cataclysmic Mind is a temp buff that procs when the target of the buff lands a damage spell. It IS different than Hostage and Spell Curse since it is only on one caster and the other two are on the NPC for received spell damage. I don't, however, know how they compare in any way shape or form to Illusionist spells that might be similar. (I'm going to poke the illusionist in my guild to do some Testing runs this weekend and give me screenies of spells and parses and junk). <cite>Outerspace wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am getting issues casting Cataclysmic Mind: if the mob I am fighting is targetting my pets and I try to cast it, I receive the message "target is not grouped" unless I detarget the mob or rename my pet to my character name.</blockquote>Dumbfire pets are not "grouped". I discovered that long ago when Rijacki (wizard) got her protoflame dumbfire. This is just the first temp buff for group member coercers' have gotten *grin*However, your Possess Essence pet and a Charmed pet ARE grouped (like summoned pets are) and you can cast it on them just fine (and if you note in my pies, they were proc'ing it when it was cast on them).However, I plan to make a macro of CM with a target pre-determined, either me or someone else who it will proc on frequently.

Outerspace

05-02-2008, 01:19 PM

Didn't realise they changed it to a group buff.Out of interest though why would you want to put it on anyone other than yourself?

cxp1

05-02-2008, 02:28 PM

I can't charm Danak Spellbinders anymore, I could yesterday on test but not today. Best pet in game that is not in an instance. Vixn

Rijacki

05-02-2008, 06:04 PM

<cite>Outerspace wrote:</cite><blockquote>Out of interest though why would you want to put it on anyone other than yourself?</blockquote>I dunno. I haven't experimented enough with it yet to know completely <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. One possibility: The damage is attributed to the target upon which it is cast. If I'm trying to keep my agro generation low (i.e. not in a group with demeanor cast on a tank), I might want to put it on someone who can take the agro hits better. Another possibility: With a tank who is siphoning hate from a mage, I might want to put it on that mage to help boost the mage's agro which would increase the tank's agro. This possibility -might- even work with the coercer out of the MT group in a group where the mage is transferring hate to the MT (they can do that raid-wide I think, can't remember, I've only done HQ raids and 1 Lab raid with Rijacki *laugh*). Another possibility: spite *smirk*

XFnarX

05-02-2008, 07:56 PM

The problem... if it's even a problem... that I have currently is this being to over powered. I have been looking at a lot of the charts and ACT graphs ya'll have been posting, which is awesome, but I can't understand how ya'll aren't breaking 1,500 solo and 2,000+ on raids already. I look at it like this, I am currently parsing between 1,900 and 3,200 in the main tank group depending on the mob. -IF- the mob AEs once every 40sec or less I shoot up to 3,400 to 4,400. What I am understanding here is that my Hostage, Spell Curse and CataMind will now all work PLUS having my stuns / stifle doing damage as well... which means in the main tank group I should be parsing over 4k zone wide if all these changes happen.Ya'll don't think that's a little over powered for, technically, as utility class in the main tank group? Seriously? I don't want to sound arrogant so please don't take it the wrong way. I am curious.

Grimlux

05-02-2008, 08:24 PM

Keep Spell Curse the way it is. Change Hostage to Disruption, make it "On successful attack" (that will even out our outrageous DPS). Take CataMind and make it self buff only, otherwise I'm just going to create a macro from it anyways. (/target praetorate, /cast CataMind) If we get the credit for the DPS you may as wel make it self only. If others get the credit for it then, well... Im still casting it on myself <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /> Make Charm and Possession work like Fighter stances. Charge 1 concentration. Voila! problem solved. Your other choice would be to just get rid of Charm. (I could care less personally, but im sure it would [Removed for Content] alot of people off)

xpraetorianx

05-02-2008, 08:25 PM

It is not overpowered, most people dont realize if the spells worked properly at all anyways... THIS IS THE DPS WE WOULD BE DOING ANYWAYS.if *Mind, Hostage, and Curse actually worked all the time, our dps would actually be HIGHER now than for this LU. Infact the spells have had their damage reduced slightly for LU45. So, infact the spells will be working as intended. Thats what most people ARE NOT grasping. If hostage didnt proc depending on the gear of MT... if *mind would actually proc as mobs used power properly... and if every mob actually triggered Spell Curse. What Aerlik has done instead is lowered the DPS and made the spells always work. thats all... we would be doing MORE dps, if the mobs actually triggering our abilities... its just that so many coercer's have accepted the fact that they cant truley dps, they now think this change is overpowered when it fact it IS NOT.When i raid, in the MT group will see the same dps output as the Above Posted described if not more, because I am spec'd for Crit, Procs and Spell Dmg Inc. as well as awesome utility. Coercer's havent been much utility since they made power drains useless along time ago.Dirges xfer more than a coercer does. A coercer just compliments a Dirge better than any other class for a MT group, but an ILLY was always MUCH better for the healers in a MT group than a Coercer was. The Coercer just helped the MT a little more and the Shaman in the MT group.Thats pretty much it. But stop saying overpowered, because its not, Aerlik has been SPOT ON with the changes.

Grimlux

05-02-2008, 08:32 PM

<cite>xpraetorianx wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is not overpowered, most people dont realize if the spells worked properly at all anyways... THIS IS THE DPS WE WOULD BE DOING ANYWAYS.if *Mind, Hostage, and Curse actually worked all the time, our dps would actually be HIGHER now than for this LU. Infact the spells have had their damage reduced slightly for LU45. So, infact the spells will be working as intended. Thats what most people ARE NOT grasping. If hostage didnt proc depending on the gear of MT... if *mind would actually proc as mobs used power properly... and if every mob actually triggered Spell Curse. What Aerlik has done instead is lowered the DPS and made the spells always work. thats all... we would be doing MORE dps, if the mobs actually triggering our abilities... its just that so many coercer's have accepted the fact that they cant truley dps, they now think this change is overpowered when it fact it IS NOT.When i raid, in the MT group will see the same dps output as the Above Posted described if not more, because I am spec'd for Crit, Procs and Spell Dmg Inc. as well as awesome utility. Coercer's havent been much utility since they made power drains useless along time ago.Dirges xfer more than a coercer does. A coercer just compliments a Dirge better than any other class for a MT group, but an ILLY was always MUCH better for the healers in a MT group than a Coercer was. The Coercer just helped the MT a little more and the Shaman in the MT group.Thats pretty much it. But stop saying overpowered, because its not, Aerlik has been SPOT ON with the changes.</blockquote>I'll agree with all notes you have mentioned, minus one thing. Maybe I am just not used to having "High" dps but when I can run around skyfire mountains on test and kill Skyfire drake's/wyverns in 5-8 combat seconds that's a tad powerful. (I wont say OP, because that's relative to what you would compare it too) I completely understand your point on the DPS. Some fights randomly I could be at top of the parse, other fights.. not even there. The changes made for better or worse are more consistent with how hard we work for what we achieve. I was in hate last night, and kept myself under 30% power. My chronomancy practically never reset, I was still at the bottom of the parse. The point being is that we work twice as hard in our current state for what little we get. If you wanna call this a nerf then so be it, but If I work my [I cannot control my vocabulary] off during a fight I dont want it to be a roll of the dice on which position I am going to be in. This is all from a DPS perspective. Everything else I am extremely satisfied with on test.

XFnarX

05-02-2008, 08:34 PM

ok fine... let me rephrase... Yes it IS over powered... look. I selected a random fight from VP on a mob that AEs once every 45sec and a random solo fight from lastnight while I was in SoF alone clearing the zone. Both of these were slected at random to keep things fair. (If you prefer to see my best I'll go look for it later.)Here's the solo parse, please note: CONVULSIONS IS NOT ON THERE. That means I broke 1,500 with out even using those spells SOLO.<img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3254/2460588484_ec0ffef0f9_o.jpg" alt="" border="0" />This parse is from VP on a mob that AEs once every 45 to 60sec. Again note that Convulsions are only 21% of the overall damage. <img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3109/2459752181_aa03143842_o.jpg" alt="" border="0" />Just by looking at your graphs and charts I can see where the DPS is and isn't. The current issue with Coercer DPS is COERCERS relying on reactives to much then crying about them. So I stand by my original statement... it's WAY to OP currently and if that makes me a Parse GOD, so be it. I look forward to the changes. This arrogant comment brought to you by "Oh Noes" the cereal gives you that kick in the pants you need to start your day!

Rijacki

05-02-2008, 09:26 PM

Kinda funny how we're all "complaining" about it being over powered *laugh*

Outerspace

05-02-2008, 09:35 PM

Sorry but I dont agree, XFnarX. If I am not mistaken you think coercer did not need any developer attention and are going out of your way to convince Kozak to nerf it.What was your illusionist's parse in the same VP instance?

Kerri

05-03-2008, 03:02 AM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>Kinda funny how we're all "complaining" about it being over powered *laugh*</blockquote>You're not the only one. I am happy that the reactive are working. Like others have said if our reactive worked in practice instead of in theory our dps would be high.

-Aonein-

05-03-2008, 03:08 AM

<cite>Outerspace wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry but I dont agree, XFnarX. If I am not mistaken you think coercer did not need any developer attention and are going out of your way to convince Kozak to nerf it.What was your illusionist's parse in the same VP instance?</blockquote> Sigh...here we go again. He is in the MT group, you understand what this means right? That means, had he been in the Caster buffed group secifically for DPS he most likely would of done 5000+ dps, now factor in these changes that Fnar is refering too and I can almost bet that Coercers just made Tier 2 and situationally Tier 1 DPS. Just as I had mentioned in a previous post elsewhere here.

xpraetorianx

05-03-2008, 03:47 AM

No Fnar you are still wrong.If you actually did some simulations on the ammount of times I cast my Reactives in a raid, I should be parsing close 12k dps. You cant TEST dps on solo mob crap. I have a swashie friend of mine that can drop those mobs faster than i can on test... A wizard nearly one shots the mobs in VP properly spec'd.I think Fnar is just looking for a reason to complain quite honestly.On average, in a simple fight lets say on a PR raid run. I cast about 230 spells during an average fight in there. I cast rather quickly because of all my proc gear.I also cast my reactives maybe 20 times a piece. Now, if hostage, *mind, and Spell Curse all proc'd like they SHOULD, figure it out.. DPS WOULD BE INSANE. Now, Coercer's have crying for FOREVER for the changes to be made to Hostage, *mind and Spell Curse to trigger properly, so instead of changing ALL mobs in the game to trigger specific effects, the spells are being made to always proc anyways and the DPS was even lowered, TWICE now.We are going to be doing the DPS we were always meant to be doing... and no a good illusionist should STILL do more DPS. I knew of Illusionists pushing 8k dps during EOF much less ROK, so stop whining and enjoy the class quite honestly. You can use your charts all you want, but its still pretty much based on solo mobs which any "dps" class can dispatch rather quickly.

Together

05-03-2008, 04:12 AM

I agree that the way reactives are procing on test is right but the damage that they do per proc is way too much for the number of times you can cast them. I say nerf the damage of them but leave the way they proc the same.

Rijacki

05-03-2008, 04:57 AM

I copied over my level 28 coercer (from AB). She is -very- underequiped *laugh* and only has her charm at Master I with the rest ranging from apprentice I to apprentice IV and most adept I.Subjectively, even she's doing far more damage than she probably should. The number of procs is right, but the damage per proc still seems a bit high. I haven't run through the parser yet, but just in the time to die of the encounters.. white to orange, EL and Nek Forest (charmed a melee and then a caster).However, unless I was just having a real off night for the RNG, charm seemed to break like wind. Resists for icharm, mez, and even stun seemed a bit higher than on Live, too, for the same character charming the same things (in Nek Forest) the day before I copied her and fighting the exact things (in Nek Forest) I had been the day before I copied her.I need to go through the parse, though, to give a more objective analysis *chuckle*.I do, though, love the change to the Despotic Mind line. I made my 28 coercer a macro with her listed as the target. I'm picking up a cast pattern of fastest to kill for her faster than my level 80 *laugh*. Not as many spells to be in certain habits with her. Despotic Mind (which is cast on self per the macro)Sibyllantthen anything else so it will proc on either or both <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />OH! and I was reminded of one reason why it would suck for even the ONE spell line (starting with Sibyllant and ended, for now, with Hostage) to react to melee vs cast... coercers don't get spell lash until 40. If the Sibyllant line reacted to melee, from 23 to 40, part of a coercer's damage potential would rely on having either a melee pet, be in a group with at least one melee (odd group not to have at least one *smirk*), or go in for melee with the targets.. which at 28 is pretty deadly. The current Live Sibyllant line reacts, as is well known, to melee damage being done by the target. In the lower levels, that's a lot more likely than in the upper levels with more well equipped characters, so a coercer doesn't "lose" that damage potential.The game doesn't start at level 80 in T2+ raiding. Characters in the lower levels have to be considered as well.

Encantador

05-03-2008, 08:23 AM

<cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Outerspace wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry but I dont agree, XFnarX. If I am not mistaken you think coercer did not need any developer attention and are going out of your way to convince Kozak to nerf it.What was your illusionist's parse in the same VP instance?</blockquote> Sigh...here we go again. He is in the MT group, you understand what this means right? That means, had he been in the Caster buffed group secifically for DPS he most likely would of done 5000+ dps, now factor in these changes that Fnar is refering too and I can almost bet that Coercers just made Tier 2 and situationally Tier 1 DPS. Just as I had mentioned in a previous post elsewhere here.</blockquote>Hate to burst your bubble but look at the chart FNAR posts. See those procs from Troub buffs? Plus somehow an Illusionist spared a Dynanism for him. Now it could be that the raid ran with a troub in the MT group and 3 illusionist, so one could spare a Dynanism. However I think it is much more likely that he was simply in a caster group and buffed to the gills. In such a group I wonder what an illusionist would have done? 4K ? 5K?Also take a look at the crit rate. How many of you get a crit on 50% of your nukes?I don't actually see anywhere that FNAR said he was in the MT group for the VP run.FNAR is one of the best equipped coercers around and should be able to produce numbers that many of us will never see. Yet I do not find the numbers posting particularly stunning.For a caster in a well buffed group 2.6K where more than a quarter is actually from buffs of other classes, seems pretty [Removed for Content] low to me.

Outerspace

05-03-2008, 08:29 AM

<cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Sigh...here we go againHe is in the MT group, you understand what this means right? That means, had he been in the Caster buffed group secifically for DPS he most likely would of done 5000+ dps, now factor in these changes that Fnar is refering too and I can almost bet that Coercers just made Tier 2 and situationally Tier 1 DPS. Just as I had mentioned in a previous post elsewhere here.</blockquote>Sigh...here we go again, uberguild friend that doesn't even have a coercer but thinks they are fine "because his friend parsed X on one fight" come to patronise me a bit because I didn't agree!You are completely wrong: coercers are not T1 DPS even after the changes. Fnar has Tandem and Precision on his second parse, so other than Dissonant Note and possibly Ice Lash what's he missing thats preventing him doing 5000+ DPS like you claim? Those two procs don't double his DPS and even if they did it's free damage that any caster class in the same group would get. Just because you can get more damage from particular optimum group setups does not change the actual output of the class. I mean, just because your friend has at least 4 spell proc items doesn't mean you can judge the DPS of the class based on the output of those items. 10% of his DPS was from spell proc items. 25% of his DPS was from Precision and Tandem. So take those away and you're left with 1750 DPS. WITH Convulsions. What did your illusionist parse on that fight? Double?Certain coercers with lots of high end raid gear most people will never see, PoTM, Tandem and Ice Lash may well be able to do over 2500 DPS on a zone parse but most average coercers such as myself don't have the gear, the group or the raid DPS to hit those levels. You understand what that means right? That means fictional figures some tank made up based on nothing prove nothing. Next you'll be telling me berserkers are the best tank class and don't need a revamp! Haha!I am on the test server, I have tested it. The burst damage is great, and sustained (60 secs) with no pet I can do around 2200, which means I killed the wall in 50-60 seconds. I don't really think this is unreasonable. There is a mindset that coercers should do low DPS because we always have done, and that we should be outparsed by healer classes, berserkers and illusionists "because thats the way it is". Not anymore.I have no idea why Fnar is complaining that he wants reactives to remain highly situational but I guess thats for him to explain. Its been a concern for a long time that reactives didn't go off in raids and were pretty useless for soloing too unless you like tanking or use a tank pet; just because we now have some burst power (which is nothing compared to many other proper DPS classes even after the revamp) we have the traditional forum invasion from non-coercers that have not even tested it telling us it's overpowered and that we should not get our reactive spells fixed.So, put him in the caster group and post your coercer's 5k zonewide parse please. I'd also love to see that of your assassin. Whats he do, 20k zonewide?(edit: I was actually typing this as Encantador posted: spookily similar)

Rijacki

05-03-2008, 12:13 PM

I won another piece of the Mindbending set last night in Protector's Realm. A guildmate, the illusionist, mentioned the 6-set bonus and wondered how it would change with the changes on Test.Live Test<img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/MindBend_Gloves_Live.jpg" alt="" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/MindBend_Gloves.jpg" alt="" border="0" />I've added these to my <a href="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/Comparison.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Comparisons</a> page as well as spell to spell comparisons for my level 28 Coercer. I'll put the level 28 parses up later. I'm off to get Peet's coffee and Noah's Bagels now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

XFnarX

05-03-2008, 01:09 PM

*sigh* It's called MYTHICAL EPICS. It makes the Troub PoTM raid wide and YES I ask for Tandem because -I AM DUMPING ON THE TANK- and that helps with aggro control.No I'm not looking for a reason to complain, I've been trying for months via Coercer channel, tells and in-game e-mails to help some of you lean that you -CAN- DPS well now and didn't need a miracle game change to save you from being hated by your raid. Thankfully a few of you listened and I have been in contact with me, but most of you are stuck in this "cry-baby" bubble that we can't DPS at all. Yeah I think it needs a little tweaking and since original launch a few days ago it has calmed down, but I still think it IS over powered. I am just expressing my opinion and honestly got [Removed for Content] off yesterday because it felt like I was talking to a 5 year old with downs, which can get frustrating.Do I think we need a little attention? Why yes I do.Do I think these changes balanced the class? For us to out DPS an Illu in the MT group... yeah sure that's balancing. [Removed for Content]Am I going to /feedback that it is really OPed? Nah, because I'll enjoy blowing through instance zones that I shouldn't be while the rest of you still don't know how to DPS.And seriously if you are going to [Removed for Content] an moan about the second chart, look at the first one. Some of you cry about not being able to break 1,500 in a Raid setting... I did it solo while wearing my [Removed for Content] Subjugation gear with NO PROCS AT ALL. I mean... [I cannot control my vocabulary] guys? Why not ask for help instead of attacking me... gebus. lol "FNAR is one of the best equipped coercers around and should be able to produce numbers that many of us will never see. Yet I do not find the numbers posting particularly stunning." And this sir is bull... I've been pulling these numbers since tier 8 was released and I could change my AA spec. I know numerous Coercer that are better equip than I. Given I have busted my balls to get those proc items out of NIZARA and the like, but seriously? What's stopping you? 1/2 my [Removed for Content] is instance gear. Again why not ask HOW to get this stuff instead of attacking... *sigh*

Outerspace

05-03-2008, 01:34 PM

Depends on your definition of good DPS, then. Personally I don't think 1750 DPS compares at all with the 3k+ parses from an illusionist. Remember that 1750 DPS includes Convulsions. Sure you did more than 1500 without using reactives, but I am not really sure what point you are trying to make by posting that parse unless you think that's acceptable DPS for a coercer. I don't think 1500 is very good and I don't think 1750 is very good, because it's far less than what an illusionist can do, which is the point of this so-called revamp.When you have raidwide PotM and Tandem, the only things you miss from the caster group are a couple of procs from the Wizard or Troub. The illusionist in your caster group can be compared with you. Just knock 15% off his DPS for the two procs and I bet he's still miles above you on the parser.As for attacking you, I'm not, I just didn't agree with you. Then that patronising berserker showed up and started spouting off that you can do more than 5k DPS in the caster group.I'm interested to see a parse of you killing that training wall on a live server. My best attempt on test with so-called overpowered abilities was 2600 DPS with no pets but I am sure I fail miserably compared to your skillz.

Jeepned2

05-03-2008, 03:30 PM

<cite>Together@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I agree that the way reactives are procing on test is right but the damage that they do per proc is way too much for the number of times you can cast them. I say nerf the damage of them but leave the way they proc the same.</blockquote>I say give the Illusionist the same Mythical Epic that we have and then let them go complain on thier own forums.

Jeepned2

05-03-2008, 03:47 PM

<cite>XFnarX wrote:</cite><blockquote>*sigh* It's called MYTHICAL EPICS. It makes the Troub PoTM raid wide and YES I ask for Tandem because -I AM DUMPING ON THE TANK- and that helps with aggro control. Glad to see you're getting Tandem, it will be a cold day in hell before I see it. Why? Two reasons, one the MT doesn't lose aggro and two, we have too many Wizzy's that would shot me on sight if I got it.No I'm not looking for a reason to complain, I've been trying for months via Coercer channel, tells and in-game e-mails to help some of you lean that you -CAN- DPS well now and didn't need a miracle game change to save you from being hated by your raid. Thankfully a few of you listened and I have been in contact with me, but most of you are stuck in this "cry-baby" bubble that we can't DPS at all. Yeah I think it needs a little tweaking and since original launch a few days ago it has calmed down, but I still think it IS over powered. I am just expressing my opinion and honestly got [Removed for Content] off yesterday because it felt like I was talking to a 5 year old with downs, which can get frustrating.Do I think we need a little attention? Why yes I do.Do I think these changes balanced the class? For us to out DPS an Illu in the MT group... yeah sure that's balancing. [Removed for Content] Sp you are doing 3.5K in the MT group on test? Well let me restate that since you would have to be doing at least 3.6K to be out DPSing the Illusionist.Am I going to /feedback that it is really OPed? Nah, because I'll enjoy blowing through instance zones that I shouldn't be while the rest of you still don't know how to DPS. Ah I love a little arogance. Yes we all failed to bow down to the Patron Saint of Coercers, Sorry, but I have bad knees.And seriously if you are going to [Removed for Content] an moan about the second chart, look at the first one. Some of you cry about not being able to break 1,500 in a Raid setting... I did it solo while wearing my [Removed for Content] Subjugation gear with NO PROCS AT ALL. I mean... [I cannot control my vocabulary] guys? Why not ask for help instead of attacking me... gebus. lol Ok, yes I do break 3K finally on SOME raid mobs, those that AoE enough to get my proc's going. Not sure if I would on more, but since they tend to die before all of my procs go off I guess I'll never know."FNAR is one of the best equipped coercers around and should be able to produce numbers that many of us will never see. Yet I do not find the numbers posting particularly stunning." And this sir is bull... I've been pulling these numbers since tier 8 was released and I could change my AA spec. I know numerous Coercer that are better equip than I. Given I have busted my balls to get those proc items out of NIZARA and the like, but seriously? What's stopping you? 1/2 my [I cannot control my vocabulary] is instance gear. Again why not ask HOW to get this stuff instead of attacking... *sigh* Well first of all, you NEVER, EVER heard me make the comment that you are the best equiped Coercer, but frankly I don't know if you are or not. Could care less. But if you are getting Tandem then by dang you betting be DPSing at a higher rate then the rest of us. Wizzies rule in my guild, they get tandem and they get my link, it's not up for discussion and since I was on the edge of not being used for raids anymore I sure wasn't going to complain to them. I've been in the cast group ONCE. For one mob, and the MT Tank demanded that I be brought back to the MT group. But unfortunately I didn't look at the parse for that one fight, I was too excited just to be there. I for one am also not real happy to the changes to VM. I like it the way it was. It added a difficulty to the class that kept the wanna be's out of the class. Trying to keep below 30% with 3 mana regen healer belts in the group was difficult and convincing the Illusionist that I couldn't mana flow because I got back 60% mana that destroyed my VM was even harder to do. Seems thier sympathy level was a little low. Channeling has become a "USE only in an emergency" spell for the same reason, VM gone for a bit. So if you are getting these great parses that most of the rest of are not, then good for you. But it's not just because you busted your butt getting the proc gear or your magical way of playing. It's because apparently your guild caters to your needs where they ignore ours for the benefit of other classes who put it to better use.Edited not for spelling this time...too lazy, but forgot to tell Rij to keep up the good work and thanks again. Look forward to each of your posts.</blockquote>

Grimlux

05-03-2008, 04:40 PM

<cite>XFnarX wrote:</cite> <blockquote>No I'm not looking for a reason to complain, I've been trying for months via Coercer channel, tells and in-game e-mails to help some of you lean that you -CAN- DPS well now and didn't need a miracle game change to save you from being hated by your raid. Yes we can DPS. We also have to work twice as hard to achieve that. What most coercer's want is Consistency XFarX. Your right though that we can in our current state. For me personally, when I cast a spell... such as hostage, i'd really like for it's charges to be used up before my cooldown is up. Most of the time... this is not the case. The change made Hostage, is a positive change but I wish Aeralik would have made it on Successful attack only.Do I think these changes balanced the class? For us to out DPS an Illu in the MT group... yeah sure that's balancing. [Removed for Content] Coercer's will always be in the MT group. If you have a 2nd Coercer in the raid, again they will have to work twice as hard for what most classes can achieve easily. (please do not interperet that statement as laziness) Am I going to /feedback that it is really OPed? Nah, because I'll enjoy blowing through instance zones that I shouldn't be while the rest of you still don't know how to DPS. Please link your main's name so that we can all look you up on EQ2players, so atleast everything you argue about is Valid. I have a hard time taking you seriously, as UBER as you say you are without being able to see your equipment. The majority of Coercer's are not raid equipped. FYI, but im sure you knew his.And seriously if you are going to [Removed for Content] an moan about the second chart, look at the first one. Some of you cry about not being able to break 1,500 in a Raid setting... I did it solo while wearing my [Removed for Content] Subjugation gear with NO PROCS AT ALL. I mean... [I cannot control my vocabulary] guys? Why not ask for help instead of attacking me... gebus. lol I think that some of the points you are making are possibly valid, but your delivering them in a very close minded way. This is Feedback, no one is trying to prove anything. We all know where Coercers weaknesses are.</blockquote>

Together

05-03-2008, 04:56 PM

<cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>XFnarX wrote:</cite> <blockquote>So if you are getting these great parses that most of the rest of are not, then good for you. But it's not just because you busted your butt getting the proc gear or your magical way of playing. It's because apparently your guild caters to your needs where they ignore ours for the benefit of other classes who put it to better use.Edited not for spelling this time...too lazy, but forgot to tell Rij to keep up the good work and thanks again. Look forward to each of your posts. </blockquote></blockquote>do you even know how tandem works? lawl

Jeepned2

05-03-2008, 05:19 PM

No, I'm a Noob raider and have no clue, but I'll try to guess. It has a 33% chance for procing on a successful hostile spell for a dehate and a does mental damage. It does more of both the higher level of the spell cast on you. Good guess? I'd take the extra 300+ mental damage anytime.

xpraetorianx

05-03-2008, 07:05 PM

I can DPS just fine FNAR. The extra damage that will come of these changes will change not one bit of my solo ability. Ive been clearing nearly all the names in Chelsith for months now. But what it will help is that for a Mage class we have been seriously underappreciated, and there are plenty of other classes in the game much more capable of dishing out DPS than coercers will be.

Mr. Dawki

05-03-2008, 08:48 PM

<cite>XFnarX wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some of you cry about not being able to break 1,500 in a Raid setting... I did it solo while wearing my [Removed for Content] Subjugation gear with NO PROCS AT ALL. </blockquote>QFEThe man breaks 3k ZW in VP every time, with these changes im not gona even bother to try anymore. Im gona go lvl my 70 coercer instead.

Outerspace

05-03-2008, 09:35 PM

Really. So lets see a zone wide then. One of his friends says he would do more than 5000 DPS and now one says he will do over 3000 DPS zonewide in VP "every time". Lets see it then, since the parse from VP trash certainly didn't show it.Remember, coercer can not be judged by the damage given by a group. As demonstrated, the last parse XFnarX posted was with Precision, Tandem and 4 spell proc gears. Knock those off he did 1750 DPS. Sorry but compared to an illusionist that's too low and needs serious buffs.

XFnarX

05-03-2008, 10:01 PM

Ok all sarcasm aside, yes I was being arrogant and I am sorry about that. Tho I would like to point out that I said "I selected them at random" to be fair. If you'd like to see the good parses I'm going into VP tonight and I will cherry pick the good ones and post those. I'll also see if they can pop me into the mage group for a few fights so I can see how I parse there as well. And I'm sorry if I came off as pointing fingers at you two specifically, I never said either of you couldn't DPS. I'm just saying the common census with Coercers is that we can't DPS as a class and it gets under my skin. To clarify, I never disagreed with you that we are behind Illus for DPS. Tho you should work out something with that Wizard... Tandem on a fast caster is better hands down. So if you want to talk overall numbers, it's being wasted on a slow casting Wizard and is he cries about it... well... he's just being selfish.**EDIT**Oh and Don't listen to Yoyo, I "can" break 3k zone wide in 3 zones now, but not in VP. I can score high 2,900 at best but I have yet ot break 3k zone wide.

XFnarX

05-03-2008, 10:11 PM

Oh and I heard an interesting tid-bit of information about this going live this Tuesday? Is this accurate?

Jeepned2

05-03-2008, 10:54 PM

Wouldn't be surprised if Tuesday, they've done that on the last couple of GU's. Quick turn around.

Rijacki

05-03-2008, 11:13 PM

<cite>Mr. Dawkins wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>XFnarX wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some of you cry about not being able to break 1,500 in a Raid setting... I did it solo while wearing my [Removed for Content] Subjugation gear with NO PROCS AT ALL. </blockquote>QFEThe man breaks 3k ZW in VP every time, with these changes im not gona even bother to try anymore. Im gona go lvl my 70 coercer instead.</blockquote>You and Fnar and some others are missing a key point, though. The game and coercers should not be balanced solely around those who are fully Mastered (or close to) and in Veeshan's Peek. Yes, someone who is in a hard-core min/max raid force WILL parse higher than someone who is not. Duh. There is a reason that person is in a hard-core min/max raid forces. There's also a host of reasons why everyone isn't in those guilds, too (and it has nothing whatsoever with any group having more "real life" than the others, just choices about playstyle, generally).The changes are not happing to JUST the hard-core min/maxers. The changes are also happening to the rest of the players, too. It is a game-wide change and needs to be balanced on game-wide and with varying players and playstyles in mind.

AmphibiousOne

05-03-2008, 11:55 PM

Okay, I don't have a toon on Test but I have an 80 Coercer. Just by looking at this, lots of positive upsides but I think it's a bit overpowered...Coercive Healing: YUM! Already it's a terrific spell worth getting (Especially since the line that you need to get it improves our dps). It really puts us on par with Time Compression.Interpid Focus: Again, yum! The 8.5 second stun is already sexy, having it do damage on termination is just sweet.Tashiana: Love it! Granted there's only two classes that deal Mental damage (afaik) and we are rarely in a group together, I think debuffing magical damge (but for less) is well worth it.Spell Curse and Hostage: Is it me or are they doing the same thing now? Or is it just that Spell Curse is an AE? I don't think this is needed if you want to cut something out. On a named fight, they already did enough dps because named's launch melee and spell attacks constantly. I could parse at 2k as it is on CoA named fights.Volatile Magic: Thank you! I didn't necessarily mind spamming sprint (hey, at least I'm working for my dps *glares at illusionists*) but this is just much better.Possession: Not sure if I understand this well, and I may be embarrassing myself but saying this but... I already use Possession. Do you realise how helpful this is to solo through instances? M1 at 32.. that's enough time to charm a heroic mob, and kill another heroic mob. And c'mon, have you not ever charmed a golem and /dance? But I'll be glad to safely go to the toilet without coming back to having my [Removed for Content] kicked (although 99% of the time, you can just take your pet off defend, and anchor it then walk away and break it. Most pets don't run too far away...)Catacylystic / Tyrannous Mind: Um... isn't this just like Spell Curse now? (; If I could chip in my 2c... Keep Hostage as it was, keep this how it was but change Spell Curse s o that when a mob is hit with a spell, they receiv e more damage Puppetmaster: Eh, don't find it all that great but I still use it. Extra pet is nice I guess.Manaward: Well... at least it's not useless...So as I gather, every coercer is going to be Enchanter: Int line and Coercer: Reactive line at LEAST. Plus the Enchanter: Wis line is a must as well imo. So every Coercer is going to be specced the same probably.

Jeepned2

05-04-2008, 02:33 AM

Guess we won't be if you are going down the Wis line. Nothing there for me that doesn't cost too much AA so I'll pass on that one.

tralalak44

05-04-2008, 03:53 AM

i would like to know how some of you knows that these changes are ovepowered? i saw only some stupid wall/solo mobs parses not any decent raid parse! so [Removed for Content] plz.about fnars parse - i can do 1800 zw too without tandem + raidwide potm even without vm (got full sta line atm) and our raid dps is only around 40k. yes we are slackers, we are casual players, but we dont care. i would like to see how u can do 5k+ zw as was mentioned before by Aonien, i realy do. maybe 3-3,5k is real with new boost but u never be so close to assasins or wizzies with their 5k+. and if u still think that 3,5k is ovepowered then iam sry for you. i dont denied that in some uber hc guild with 80k+ raid dps coercer can parse "insane" (for our class) numbers but who cares? those are 1, 2 or maybe 3 corcers max per server! we never be t1 or t2 dps class not even with these "power ups" we got in this gu.

-Aonein-

05-04-2008, 07:19 AM

<cite>tralalak44 wrote:</cite><blockquote>i would like to know how some of you knows that these changes are ovepowered? i saw only some stupid wall/solo mobs parses not any decent raid parse! so [I cannot control my vocabulary] plz.about fnars parse - i can do 1800 zw too without tandem + raidwide potm even without vm (got full sta line atm) and our raid dps is only around 40k. yes we are slackers, we are casual players, but we dont care. i would like to see how u can do 5k+ zw as was mentioned before by Aonien, i realy do. maybe 3-3,5k is real with new boost but u never be so close to assasins or wizzies with their 5k+. and if u still think that 3,5k is ovepowered then iam sry for you. i dont denied that in some uber hc guild with 80k+ raid dps coercer can parse "insane" (for our class) numbers but who cares? those are 1, 2 or maybe 3 corcers max per server! we never be t1 or t2 dps class not even with these "power ups" we got in this gu. </blockquote> WOW you guys need to learn how to read.........thats truely an amazing ability you have there.

-Aonein-

05-04-2008, 08:07 AM

If you guys think this was suppose to be how Coercers were meant to be all along, why are Illusionists not doing 7k dps solo on triple up mobs?<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T37k62fuMm0&eurl=http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/24994-preview-gu45-charges-9.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T37k...-charges-9.html</a>

Jeepned2

05-04-2008, 12:41 PM

Aonein, instead of turning this in to a flames thread I'll just leave it at this.....go away. Some pretty amazing parses where being thrown around in here, and some of us just want proof that it wasn't all bs. Sorry if we are calling you a stretcher of the truth, but well...we are. To top it off, Fnar is getting two buffs that most of us will never be allowed to see, Tandem and Precision. Most guilds see fit to put those on people who can put them to better use. Most of us will never seen a group outside the MT group, so no Trouby buffs, no Warlock buffs..... Only dirge buffs for us.Personally I would love to see what I could do if I was mastered out and had all the great drops available in VS (and guessing he has a few from Avatars also.) Over half of my spells haven't even dropped that I know of on my server. If they have, no one has said anything and are hording inside their guild (which I don't blame them at all).So if you are going to say that we are over powered IF we are fully mastered, have cleaned out VP, and killed a few Avatars...then my arguement would be, that anyone in any class that is similarly equiped would also be over powered.Although personally waiting for the Berzerker nerfs that are long overdue, then you can go back to your own forums and whine.

Rijacki

05-04-2008, 01:10 PM

<cite>tralalak44 wrote:</cite><blockquote>i would like to know how some of you knows that these changes are ovepowered? i saw only some stupid wall/solo mobs parses not any decent raid parse! so [I cannot control my vocabulary] plz.</blockquote>The Wall is a controlled environment. You can depend on it to be there. You can depend on it to stand there and be hit (and not hit back). You can depend on it to be identical on Live and Test/Test Copy. However, wall parses should be looked at as only PART of the whole picture.Soloing doesn't depend on 23 other people taking time out of their lives for a few hours for no personal gain. Grouping only depends on 4-5 other people taking time out, but even that can be daunting for some.While soloing doesn't have any other buff a coercer might have in a group or raid environment, someone with half a brain and/or who can do some mental calculation can extrapolate the ramifications of the changes to a group or raid setting. It's not rocket science.Plus, the primary thing being looked at by these parses is damage potential or the specific spell changes. Even solo you can see how many times they proc, what time of damage they do on each proc, how often they proc, etc. Since they're not reliant on the mob doing damage to an ally (like the current Live ones) but on an ally doing a particular type of damage to the mob, you can see the proc mechanism as easily solo, grouped, or in a raid.

Nuhus

05-04-2008, 02:12 PM

Theres even some coercers who don't raid. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Rijacki

05-04-2008, 02:36 PM

<cite>Nuhus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Theres even some coercers who don't raid. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Yup!There are some who only solo. Some who only group. Some who raid in T8 that didn't raid in T7. There are some who are even in lower levels. There are also some with not ideal gear. There are some who don't have oodles of proc gear from T7 raid targets. There are some who have Bristlebane as a diety and not Ro or Inny or whomever the so-called ideal is. There are some who...There are a lot of playstyles and a lot of different types of players in the game. The game has to be balanced to ALL of them, not just a subset no matter how large or small that subset is.

Outerspace

05-04-2008, 02:48 PM

<cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite> There is nothing that hasn't been explained or said to make your guys look like chumps but this I couldn't leave alone, are you seriously in outer space? The 5k dps in MT group is taking into consideration the new changes you [I cannot control my vocabulary]. In reguards to you demonstrating how those buffs effect a Coercer, lets not demonstrate how those SAME buffs effect a Illusionist in the DPS group shall we and just assume that Illusionists do 4k DPS on thier own with no help.........[Removed for Content]. In reguards to Fnar's DPS, he was pulling these numbers BEFORE he was in VP, ffs what is wrong with you [Removed for Content]. He pointed out your flaws and because such you flame the guy instead of putting it into partical, burns that someone is better then you doesn't it.</blockquote>Have you played XFnarX's toon in a raid on test? No. Do you even have a level 80 coercer on test? No. Are there any raids on test? No. Consequently you have no idea what DPS he would do in a raid, and lets say on a small number of fights he is able to hit 5000 DPS how is that over powered? There are no rules that say certain classes should do certain levels of DPS and my personal view is that the coercer class should do slightly more DPS than illusionist.You keep bleating about MT groups but when your MT coercer has PotM and Tandem, that means it's not far off the caster group. Regardless, I have asked several times for parses of your illusionist and you have failed to provide them. You have also failed to provide any proof of any of your wild DPS claims and until you do it means I am right and you should go back to your class forums instead of sitting here all day calling people names like a three year old.The fact is, I don't care what DPS XFnarX does in any zone: all I want to know is how much DPS the illusionist(s) in the same raid are doing but none of you want to post it, probably because it would destroy your nerf posts. If you want to compare classes, open ACT and subtract the damage that comes from procs and group buffs. Compare the class-only spells and you will find the illusionist does loads more on pretty much every fight. Also, there is no dispute that the illusionist currently has more desirable buffs. End of story.I think XFnarX can address posts to him without you and your chums chipping in with abuse and fiction, and he certainly articulates his replies better than you do.As for your last comment, you'd know that better than I would.

XFnarX

05-04-2008, 02:56 PM

Ok... after some extreme testing yesterday in VP, solo and on test solo I have mildly changed my opinion.Coercer VP PARSING:Average parse in MT was around mid to high 2,000s. (on average) Average parse in Mage DPS group was low to high-mid 3,000s. (on average)There was basically only 2 mobs where I broke out of this standard. 1 of the types of raptors that hits really fast and the golems that AE every 30sec. As always, most named in VP parsed VERY low.Illusionist VP PARSING:Average in OT group was high 3,000s to low 4,000s (on average)Average in Mage DPS group was mid 4,000s to mid-high 5,000s (on average)After trying my damndest and using most of the tricks I had up my sleeves (not including God abilities because that's cheating) I wasn't able to stand up to our Illus breatheren. So I am in agreement that we do need to improve in the DPS field or they seriously need to up our utility in order to get us in line with them.But here's what I got from DPS testing, solo on the test server. Coercer Test Parse:Lowest parse during testing 2,983.41Highest parse during testing 7,162.38On average the solo mobs in JW were alive for 3 ~ 6 seconds. The ^ scorps near Maidens / VoES were alive on average for 7 ~ 12 seconds. ^^^ Heroics, minus my dieing a lot while figuring things out, were normally alive for 25+ seconds but rarely lasted more than 50 seconds.Is this OverPowered? Well, yes and now. If you learn how to use it properly it can be, however, in a raid setting in VP (considering the resists and with the right gear) I believe that we should be parsing 4,000 ~ 5,500 currently. I personally think this is a bit much, but it is "technically" more in line with a lot of Illus out there.Will some of us parse higher? Yes, it has the potential (which I accidentally accomplished last night while testing) to be monstrous, but I believe, just like Illus, some of us will be great and others will just fall into the high 2k to mid 3k range. It still does take skill.My opinion has since changed about this update. I hope it all goes through. Even if it makes us a FoTW.

Orienne

05-04-2008, 05:06 PM

<cite>XFnarX wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok... after some extreme testing yesterday in VP, solo and on test solo I have mildly changed my opinion.Coercer VP PARSING:Average parse in MT was around mid to high 2,000s. (on average) Average parse in Mage DPS group was low to high-mid 3,000s. (on average)There was basically only 2 mobs where I broke out of this standard. 1 of the types of raptors that hits really fast and the golems that AE every 30sec. As always, most named in VP parsed VERY low.Illusionist VP PARSING:Average in OT group was high 3,000s to low 4,000s (on average)Average in Mage DPS group was mid 4,000s to mid-high 5,000s (on average)After trying my damndest and using most of the tricks I had up my sleeves (not including God abilities because that's cheating) I wasn't able to stand up to our Illus breatheren. So I am in agreement that we do need to improve in the DPS field or they seriously need to up our utility in order to get us in line with them.But here's what I got from DPS testing, solo on the test server. Coercer Test Parse:Lowest parse during testing 2,983.41Highest parse during testing 7,162.38On average the solo mobs in JW were alive for 3 ~ 6 seconds. The ^ scorps near Maidens / VoES were alive on average for 7 ~ 12 seconds. ^^^ Heroics, minus my dieing a lot while figuring things out, were normally alive for 25+ seconds but rarely lasted more than 50 seconds.Is this OverPowered? Well, yes and now. If you learn how to use it properly it can be, however, in a raid setting in VP (considering the resists and with the right gear) I believe that we should be parsing 4,000 ~ 5,500 currently. I personally think this is a bit much, but it is "technically" more in line with a lot of Illus out there.Will some of us parse higher? Yes, it has the potential (which I accidentally accomplished last night while testing) to be monstrous, but I believe, just like Illus, some of us will be great and others will just fall into the high 2k to mid 3k range. It still does take skill.My opinion has since changed about this update. I hope it all goes through. Even if it makes us a FoTW. </blockquote>Well said Fnar, I'm glad to see that you took real data and tested the differences currently between the enchanter classes and came up with a new opinion. I completely agree with you saying that if these changes all make it through it will make a small percentage of the coercer class OP, but not the majority as it still takes skill to play the class. We will really be on the same playing field as the Illusionists in that regard.

Jeepned2

05-04-2008, 05:28 PM

<cite>XFnarX wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok... after some extreme testing yesterday in VP, solo and on test solo I have mildly changed my opinion.Coercer VP PARSING:</blockquote>The rest of his post is important so please read. Ok Fnar, this is more along the lines I was expecting. Thanks for the more in depth testing.Maybe someday I'll get a change to go to the Mage group and see some of the higher parses you were talking about, but I'm not counting on it. Being the primary Coercer in my guild and with the updates to Coercive Healing and other utility ( like the damage proc to taunts from our mythical), I don't see a chance of me getting out of the MT group.....ever. Mid to high 2K's would make me very happy, and although I still wouldn't be as high as the Illusionist in the raid (nor should I be in the MT group), at least now I can make a decent showing of myself.Between you and Rijacki, we are seeing some good and accurate data now about the updates. Thanks again. Umm sorry if I left any other testers out, I just see these two posting the most, but my thanks go out to you also.

Rijacki

05-04-2008, 08:18 PM

<cite>XFnarX wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is this OverPowered? Well, yes and now. If you learn how to use it properly it can be, however, in a raid setting in VP (considering the resists and with the right gear) I believe that we should be parsing 4,000 ~ 5,500 currently. I personally think this is a bit much, but it is "technically" more in line with a lot of Illus out there.Will some of us parse higher? Yes, it has the potential (which I accidentally accomplished last night while testing) to be monstrous, but I believe, just like Illus, some of us will be great and others will just fall into the high 2k to mid 3k range. It still does take skill.My opinion has since changed about this update. I hope it all goes through. Even if it makes us a FoTW. </blockquote>Thank you for doing a more thorough evaluation and giving some more even conclusions based on them.Overpowered? In my opinion, a tad high *chuckle*. With the changes as they are now, it won't take much effort to look impressive. A lot of effort, and yes, it will look monstrous. There will be a massive difference between the two (and it won't rely on someone just hitting ONE button and rocking back and forth like a autistic child between fights... that ain't skill).I hope it all goes through, just slightly toned down.BTW, in case anyone is curious, there has been no change to damage numbers on the spells (haven't had a chance to go out and hit anything). The ONLY spell to have changed at all between the 30th and today is two different changes to the wording on Puppetmaster. The text on Puppetmaster on Live says 1 pet and and 2 more. The text on Test on the 30th said 3 pets and might have had the 1 pet, too, but I personally misread it and only saw the mention of 3 (I didn't screenshot it). The text on the 1st said it summons 4 temp pets in only one sentence. The text last night said, in two lines, summons 2 temp pets twice. Hmm.. I have to wonder why the pets are summoned that way and what difference it makes.I was having problems with my installation directory so didn't have any play time over the weekend. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I was setting something up to be more convenient for something completely aside and it fratzed my main installation directory in a way I cannot figure out.

-Aonein-

05-05-2008, 05:46 AM

<cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aonein, instead of turning this in to a flames thread I'll just leave it at this.....go away. Some pretty amazing parses where being thrown around in here, and some of us just want proof that it wasn't all bs. Sorry if we are calling you a stretcher of the truth, but well...we are. To top it off, Fnar is getting two buffs that most of us will never be allowed to see, Tandem and Precision. Most guilds see fit to put those on people who can put them to better use. Most of us will never seen a group outside the MT group, so no Trouby buffs, no Warlock buffs..... Only dirge buffs for us.Personally I would love to see what I could do if I was mastered out and had all the great drops available in VS (and guessing he has a few from Avatars also.) Over half of my spells haven't even dropped that I know of on my server. If they have, no one has said anything and are hording inside their guild (which I don't blame them at all).So if you are going to say that we are over powered IF we are fully mastered, have cleaned out VP, and killed a few Avatars...then my arguement would be, that anyone in any class that is similarly equiped would also be over powered.Although personally waiting for the Berzerker nerfs that are long overdue, then you can go back to your own forums and whine.</blockquote> The fact that your guild has no idea who to buff, the fact that you have totally disreguarded the video I posted plus the fact that Fnar was getting PoTM from the Troubies Mythical is what makes you clueless. The final fact remains that you still are going on this parade with "wish I was fully mastered with VP gear...." blah blah blah when people have pointed out your flaws for you only for you to laugh in thier face and call them clueless........good way to repay someone who actually put thier spare time into helping you, not to mention people had to explain to you in your very own forums here how Tandem really works now you think it makes Coercers parse like a god? What the most sad thing is, is you try to tickle my raw nerve with my Zerker sig assuming that I am only zerker and not knowing anything about enchanters when the truth is, I am too lazy to change my sig.....plus I happen to still enjoy playing my zerker and I like the sig that Suite made for me (shameless plug for Suite), go check out Teevee in EQ2players if you really feel the need to know how much I know. One last thing and I am pretty done repling to you cause you really are clueless by choie because you refuse help and trying new things to see if you had been wrong or not, but no, you don't need fully mastered out toon decked out in VP's finest to DPS, you just need to change your playstyle or casting rotation, not hard when you think about it.

-Aonein-

05-05-2008, 05:54 AM

<cite>Outerspace wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite> There is nothing that hasn't been explained or said to make your guys look like chumps but this I couldn't leave alone, are you seriously in outer space? The 5k dps in MT group is taking into consideration the new changes you [I cannot control my vocabulary]. In reguards to you demonstrating how those buffs effect a Coercer, lets not demonstrate how those SAME buffs effect a Illusionist in the DPS group shall we and just assume that Illusionists do 4k DPS on thier own with no help.........[Removed for Content]. In reguards to Fnar's DPS, he was pulling these numbers BEFORE he was in VP, ffs what is wrong with you [Removed for Content]. He pointed out your flaws and because such you flame the guy instead of putting it into partical, burns that someone is better then you doesn't it.</blockquote>Have you played XFnarX's toon in a raid on test? No. Do you even have a level 80 coercer on test? No. Are there any raids on test? No. Consequently you have no idea what DPS he would do in a raid, and lets say on a small number of fights he is able to hit 5000 DPS how is that over powered? There are no rules that say certain classes should do certain levels of DPS and my personal view is that the coercer class should do slightly more DPS than illusionist.You keep bleating about MT groups but when your MT coercer has PotM and Tandem, that means it's not far off the caster group. Regardless, I have asked several times for parses of your illusionist and you have failed to provide them. You have also failed to provide any proof of any of your wild DPS claims and until you do it means I am right and you should go back to your class forums instead of sitting here all day calling people names like a three year old.The fact is, I don't care what DPS XFnarX does in any zone: all I want to know is how much DPS the illusionist(s) in the same raid are doing but none of you want to post it, probably because it would destroy your nerf posts. If you want to compare classes, open ACT and subtract the damage that comes from procs and group buffs. Compare the class-only spells and you will find the illusionist does loads more on pretty much every fight. Also, there is no dispute that the illusionist currently has more desirable buffs. End of story.I think XFnarX can address posts to him without you and your chums chipping in with abuse and fiction, and he certainly articulates his replies better than you do.As for your last comment, you'd know that better than I would.</blockquote> Here i'll help you out and wont bleat out.<ol><li>Watch the video I linked in reguards to Coercer Test LU45 DPS.</li><li>No, you don't have to play a class to understand game mechanics you [Removed for Content].</li><li>You realize troubs add 1k+ DPS to any enchanter right? You do understand this correct? Not to mention all the other buffs and temp buffs during combat that other casters put on you, right? Tell me you understand this? Please for the love of baby jesus tell me you understand this? Notice I used the word enchanter or should I bold/underline it for emphasis, enchanter.</li></ol> The rest of your post is laughable at best, maybe if you float around space a little longer the lack of O2 will make you a stone.

Outerspace

05-05-2008, 06:35 AM

Oh right you're an illusionist! What happened, got bored of whining about VM in your own forums? I've asked you twice for parses now: post them or don't post again.

Tsunai

05-05-2008, 09:56 AM

Just a friendly reminder to everyone that hostility and name calling isn't necessary. Keep things civil and constructive so you don't get the thread locked. Be passionate! but leave the attacks out.Thanks and happy posting!

Jeepned2

05-05-2008, 10:22 AM

<cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite> Here i'll help you out and wont bleat out.<ol><li>Watch the video I linked in reguards to Coercer Test LU45 DPS.</li><li>No, you don't have to play a class to understand game mechanics you [Removed for Content].</li><li>You realize troubs add 1k+ DPS to any enchanter right? You do understand this correct? Not to mention all the other buffs and temp buffs during combat that other casters put on you, right? Tell me you understand this? Please for the love of baby jesus tell me you understand this? Notice I used the word enchanter or should I bold/underline it for emphasis, enchanter.</li></ol> The rest of your post is laughable at best, maybe if you float around space a little longer the lack of O2 will make you a stone.</blockquote>1. Watched2. Agreed, except with the [Removed for Content] part.3. Yes I do realize that troubs add 1K+ DPS. But I'll spell it out for you once more. I AM LOCKED INTO MT group. We don't get Troubs. I'm not the Raid Leader. I don't get other casters in my group. I understand fine. What you don't seem to want to understand is that, I'm guessing here, that 90% or more of raiding Coercers are forever stuck in the MT group. I know only three raiding guilds on my server that run 2 Coercers. (Don't know if they run them at the same time, just that they have 2). Could my parses be 1-2K higher in the mage group? I would hope so. But I, and a lot of other Coercers will never be there. With a mythical that gives the MT a mental damage proc, Coersive Healing and a host of other utility that we have, we will not excape the MT group. So what you have posted is all a pipe dream for most of us.

Outerspace

05-05-2008, 10:49 AM

Does a troubador really add over 1000 DPS?Looking at Fnar's parse, the troub added 350 DPS with PotM, and I don't believe Dissonant Note adds more than 650 DPS. Looking at my own parses of raids it adds about 210 DPS zone wide for a summoner, so for the benefit of the doubt say 250 DPS for an enchanter. So troubador adds about 600 DPS total based on that.But regardless I don't think we can judge the coercer revamp based on what other classes give to our numbers. We just need the pure numbers, with no proc gear or group buffs/procs.

Rijacki

05-05-2008, 11:26 AM

<cite>Outerspace wrote:</cite><blockquote>Does a troubador really add over 1000 DPS?Looking at Fnar's parse, the troub added 350 DPS with PotM, and I don't believe Dissonant Note adds more than 650 DPS. Looking at my own parses of raids it adds about 210 DPS zone wide for a summoner, so for the benefit of the doubt say 250 DPS for an enchanter. So troubador adds about 600 DPS total based on that.But regardless I don't think we can judge the coercer revamp based on what other classes give to our numbers. We just need the pure numbers, with no proc gear or group buffs/procs.</blockquote>As a level 80 coercer, I often duo with a troubador (my boyfriend's raid character). He isn't fully mastered out (I don't keep track of what masters he has either), but while duoing with him, I DO do more damage even on Live. If I have a mage pet, that pet does more damage, too (charmed pets get group buffs). It is an additional 1K? Not by a long shot, but he also plays his character A LOT more casually than I do (one of the reasons I -choose- to be in a semi-casual raid guild is that I can be there with him -- HE wouldn't be able to keep up to a true min/max guild and gets frustrated with me doing min/max calculations).I'll try again to convince him to do a /testcopy so I can run some parses duoing with him, but he's rather busy with a lot of other stuff.One thing Aonein refuses to understand is that not all coercers are in raid guilds/organisations which have even one mythical or are in Veeshan's Peek. He is part of the subset of players who refuse to allow that the rest of the game or any other player matters at all. He has his blinders firmly in place and, with that tunnel vision, will only look at what the small subset of players (those raiding in Veeshan's Peek with all or mostly all mythicals).

Mr. Dawki

05-05-2008, 11:46 AM

Ok trigger DPS asside, I would like to point out that possession is still nearly just as useless as it was before. My explination. It does 300-500ish DPS. In a raid I would use the THREE conc on another player. Outside of a raid I would just charm a mob that can do 900+ DPS. This is with M1 possesion that I was testing with. If the spell was ment to take the "essence" of the mob in question why does it seem that every mob I possess parses the same? I should look into ACT and see if they are using the same spells every time. In short no, unless possession has the conc removed by the mythical, or just removed in general, there is still very little reason to keep possession on my hotbars, imo.

ProteusTielaxi

05-05-2008, 12:21 PM

Aonein,Troubadors are few, and far between. Our guild doesn't have any, although we have 3 raiding lvl 80 Coercers....<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Because of vast differences in raid setup, buffs, gear, etc, the ONLY FAIR WAY TO BALANCE PLAYERS IS THROUGH SOLO/GROUP DAMAGE. Period. End of story.Yes, I could parse 1k DPS more with Tandem and Troub buffs, but thats not technically MY dps..its the troub/illusionists.Our DPS relies only on ourselves, self buffed. Anything extra from raid buffs is just that..extra, that all classes can get.Perhaps 2% of us have VP gear, full fable, and masters. The rest of us have to settle for one or two masters, one or two fabled pieces, and a more realistic 15-20% crit, rather than the 50%+ Fnar is walking around with. I have the greatest respect for him...but you can't exactly call him the "typical" coercer.Skill is actually the least issue. Once you get the timing, and cast order down, its not hard to maximize what you have. The key point is we can be easily outdps'd by a similarly equiped illusionist simply because of current game mechanics, and once things are fixed, we should be back to normal. Roughly on par with Illusionists and swashys for DPS (Tier-3) where we've always belonged, as cloth wearing squishies.I have no idea why illusionists are complaining..you should get some nice bonus out of this patch with the move from power drain to dmg on your spells, without having to use the silly Sprint exploit.

XFnarX

05-05-2008, 12:24 PM

As for who the Illu puts Tandem on, think about it. It's a "spell proc" that is "percentage" based. Thus it's most effective on the fastest and most frequently casting class... aka Enchanters. Honestly the dehate is near useless, so if the Illus put it on a Troub or Wiz over you, they are only hurting the overall DPS of the raid. The Coercer dehate should go to the Wizzy, not Tandem.1/2 of the Troubs abilities are CAs, 1/2 are Spells, thus you lose 50% of it's ability right off the bat. Wizards cast slow, yes they do have some fast casting spells, but over all they cast at about 1/3 to 1/4 the speed Enchanters do, which is technically worse than putting it on a Troub. If the spell was like other procs and was set up as 2.6 times a minute or something like that then it would be ok on the Wizard but still better on an enchanter, but because it's still a 48% proc rate, the more casts the more it procs. Which is why it's such a large portion of my damage. I never stop casting.An MT Coercer should ALWAYS have Tandem, hands down. It's more DPS for the dump on the tank and our class is the BEST suited for the spell it self. I personally think the classes complaining about not getting it should suck it up and realize all they are doing it hurting the over-all preformance of the raid by being selfish about their personal DPS preformance.

Ibunubi

05-05-2008, 12:33 PM

<cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aonein, instead of turning this in to a flames thread I'll just leave it at this.....go away. Some pretty amazing parses where being thrown around in here, and some of us just want proof that it wasn't all bs. Sorry if we are calling you a stretcher of the truth, but well...we are. To top it off, Fnar is getting two buffs that most of us will never be allowed to see, Tandem and Precision. Most guilds see fit to put those on people who can put them to better use. Most of us will never seen a group outside the MT group, so no Trouby buffs, no Warlock buffs..... Only dirge buffs for us.Personally I would love to see what I could do if I was mastered out and had all the great drops available in VS (and guessing he has a few from Avatars also.) Over half of my spells haven't even dropped that I know of on my server. If they have, no one has said anything and are hording inside their guild (which I don't blame them at all).So if you are going to say that we are over powered IF we are fully mastered, have cleaned out VP, and killed a few Avatars...then my arguement would be, that anyone in any class that is similarly equiped would also be over powered.Although personally waiting for the Berzerker nerfs that are long overdue, then you can go back to your own forums and whine.</blockquote> The fact that your guild has no idea who to buff, the fact that you have totally disreguarded the video I posted plus the fact that Fnar was getting PoTM from the Troubies Mythical is what makes you clueless. The final fact remains that you still are going on this parade with "wish I was fully mastered with VP gear...." blah blah blah when people have pointed out your flaws for you only for you to laugh in thier face and call them clueless........good way to repay someone who actually put thier spare time into helping you, not to mention people had to explain to you in your very own forums here how Tandem really works now you think it makes Coercers parse like a god? What the most sad thing is, is you try to tickle my raw nerve with my Zerker sig assuming that I am only zerker and not knowing anything about enchanters when the truth is, I am too lazy to change my sig.....plus I happen to still enjoy playing my zerker and I like the sig that Suite made for me (shameless plug for Suite), go check out Teevee in EQ2players if you really feel the need to know how much I know. One last thing and I am pretty done repling to you cause you really are clueless by choie because you refuse help and trying new things to see if you had been wrong or not, but no, you don't need fully mastered out toon decked out in VP's finest to DPS, you just need to change your playstyle or casting rotation, not hard when you think about it.</blockquote>What about my video?

Outerspace

05-05-2008, 01:46 PM

<cite>XFnarX wrote:</cite><blockquote>As for who the Illu puts Tandem on, think about it. It's a "spell proc" that is "percentage" based. Thus it's most effective on the fastest and most frequently casting class... aka Enchanters. Honestly the dehate is near useless, so if the Illus put it on a Troub or Wiz over you, they are only hurting the overall DPS of the raid. The Coercer dehate should go to the Wizzy, not Tandem.1/2 of the Troubs abilities are CAs, 1/2 are Spells, thus you lose 50% of it's ability right off the bat. Wizards cast slow, yes they do have some fast casting spells, but over all they cast at about 1/3 to 1/4 the speed Enchanters do, which is technically worse than putting it on a Troub. If the spell was like other procs and was set up as 2.6 times a minute or something like that then it would be ok on the Wizard but still better on an enchanter, but because it's still a 48% proc rate, the more casts the more it procs. Which is why it's such a large portion of my damage. I never stop casting.An MT Coercer should ALWAYS have Tandem, hands down. It's more DPS for the dump on the tank and our class is the BEST suited for the spell it self. I personally think the classes complaining about not getting it should suck it up and realize all they are doing it hurting the over-all preformance of the raid by being selfish about their personal DPS preformance.</blockquote>Something I completely agree with <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

-Aonein-

05-05-2008, 01:47 PM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Outerspace wrote:</cite><blockquote>Does a troubador really add over 1000 DPS?Looking at Fnar's parse, the troub added 350 DPS with PotM, and I don't believe Dissonant Note adds more than 650 DPS. Looking at my own parses of raids it adds about 210 DPS zone wide for a summoner, so for the benefit of the doubt say 250 DPS for an enchanter. So troubador adds about 600 DPS total based on that.But regardless I don't think we can judge the coercer revamp based on what other classes give to our numbers. We just need the pure numbers, with no proc gear or group buffs/procs.</blockquote>As a level 80 coercer, I often duo with a troubador (my boyfriend's raid character). He isn't fully mastered out (I don't keep track of what masters he has either), but while duoing with him, I DO do more damage even on Live. If I have a mage pet, that pet does more damage, too (charmed pets get group buffs). It is an additional 1K? Not by a long shot, but he also plays his character A LOT more casually than I do (one of the reasons I -choose- to be in a semi-casual raid guild is that I can be there with him -- HE wouldn't be able to keep up to a true min/max guild and gets frustrated with me doing min/max calculations).I'll try again to convince him to do a /testcopy so I can run some parses duoing with him, but he's rather busy with a lot of other stuff.One thing Aonein refuses to understand is that not all coercers are in raid guilds/organisations which have even one mythical or are in Veeshan's Peek. He is part of the subset of players who refuse to allow that the rest of the game or any other player matters at all. He has his blinders firmly in place and, with that tunnel vision, will only look at what the small subset of players (those raiding in Veeshan's Peek with all or mostly all mythicals).</blockquote> The one vital thing you seem to competely fail to understand Rij is that the balancing will take place around min/max part of the game meaning that if Coercers after these changes can consistantly parse 7k dps solo, grouped OR raid, reguardless of how you can or cannot do it, it will get changed to fall in line with a certain consistancy that you and other people like you cannot perform, thus in turn nerfing the casual base also. This is obviously something that will effect you wether you like it or not or even remotely agree with, thus my comparison using min/max sceanrios to begin with because this is where they will do thier fine tuning, which like I said works like a pipeline and will alternatively effect people who can simply not perform. Who is the one with tunnel vision thinking that Coercers are *stuck* in the MT group? Last time I checked with the casual freedom that you advertise, anyone can go anywhere, correct? At least I can acknowledge that Coercers still do decent DPS in the caster group still and not like you guys revolving your entire debate around a MT role and we can only do 1-1.5k dps and besides, who says that Coercers HAVE to go in the MT group, what if you have 2 or 3 in your guild who wants to raid? Surely you don't use a min/max set up in a casual based guild and turn away people who consistantly want to raid now do you Rij? By your standards, not every one would need to be spec'd for a MT role correct? Only a small subset of players would need to, correct? I found this post most interesting:<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/21730-what-do-you-dps.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/2...do-you-dps.html</a> Seems to me that the norm for majority of these players is 2-3k dps in or out of the MT group.......kind of just like my DPS without a fully buffed *elite hard core* caster raiding group. This is where you consistantly take it out of context, you with your *tunnel* vision seem to think and believe that Illusionists are capable of doing 4-5k consistantly with no buffs, hate to say this or be the one to break it too you, but sorry love, we don't. It is a circle Rij, everyone gets effected. Jump on the merry go round. I'll finish up with totally and 100% agree with Fnar in his last post in reguards to Tandem, if your guild has no clue what or who they are buffing, don't cry a river thinking thats how we all do it, I ALWAYS buff our Coercer with Tandem, so scream at your own Illies or raid leader, don't stereo type us because yours suck.

-Aonein-

05-05-2008, 01:56 PM

<cite>Ibunubi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aonein, instead of turning this in to a flames thread I'll just leave it at this.....go away. Some pretty amazing parses where being thrown around in here, and some of us just want proof that it wasn't all bs. Sorry if we are calling you a stretcher of the truth, but well...we are. To top it off, Fnar is getting two buffs that most of us will never be allowed to see, Tandem and Precision. Most guilds see fit to put those on people who can put them to better use. Most of us will never seen a group outside the MT group, so no Trouby buffs, no Warlock buffs..... Only dirge buffs for us.Personally I would love to see what I could do if I was mastered out and had all the great drops available in VS (and guessing he has a few from Avatars also.) Over half of my spells haven't even dropped that I know of on my server. If they have, no one has said anything and are hording inside their guild (which I don't blame them at all).So if you are going to say that we are over powered IF we are fully mastered, have cleaned out VP, and killed a few Avatars...then my arguement would be, that anyone in any class that is similarly equiped would also be over powered.Although personally waiting for the Berzerker nerfs that are long overdue, then you can go back to your own forums and whine.</blockquote> The fact that your guild has no idea who to buff, the fact that you have totally disreguarded the video I posted plus the fact that Fnar was getting PoTM from the Troubies Mythical is what makes you clueless. The final fact remains that you still are going on this parade with "wish I was fully mastered with VP gear...." blah blah blah when people have pointed out your flaws for you only for you to laugh in thier face and call them clueless........good way to repay someone who actually put thier spare time into helping you, not to mention people had to explain to you in your very own forums here how Tandem really works now you think it makes Coercers parse like a god? What the most sad thing is, is you try to tickle my raw nerve with my Zerker sig assuming that I am only zerker and not knowing anything about enchanters when the truth is, I am too lazy to change my sig.....plus I happen to still enjoy playing my zerker and I like the sig that Suite made for me (shameless plug for Suite), go check out Teevee in EQ2players if you really feel the need to know how much I know. One last thing and I am pretty done repling to you cause you really are clueless by choie because you refuse help and trying new things to see if you had been wrong or not, but no, you don't need fully mastered out toon decked out in VP's finest to DPS, you just need to change your playstyle or casting rotation, not hard when you think about it.</blockquote>What about my video?</blockquote> Nothing, it rocks, shows the true power of your reactives now and it is pretty [Removed for Content] impressive. If it makes it to live like that, well, I think there will be alot more Coercers around thats for sure. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Outerspace

05-05-2008, 02:56 PM

Saying coercers parse 7k solo is misleading and repeating it over and over doesn't make it true. Sure on solo mobs that have only 20k health we might do in some cases, but plenty of other classes can do this too. If you measure the DPS from when the fight actually started, i.e. with the root and then debuff(s), and then the application of "proactives" it's nothing like 7k. You can set it up to make it look better than it is by removing proc items so you don't start the fight timer with a proc, but yes I have had a couple of times where I have spiked to 10k DPS on a solo mob, killing it in 2 seconds with a string of critical procs. But is this unreasonable? The fight took longer than 2 seconds, but the phase where I did damage to it didn't.I may be guilty of taking the illusionist out of context at times, but this was within the context of people making outrageous claims that they cannot substantiate. Fnar has already backed up my own view that in a similar group with similar buffs, the coercer class can not match the illusionist class (and here I am assuming that his guildy illusionists are equally knowledgeable of their class). The discrepancy is 1-1.5k DPS plus the fact illusionists get undisputedly better buffs across the board and more useful and wanted AA finishers. Because of this I expect in a similar group and solo that I should be outparsing illusionists after the revamp hits live: they got all the toys but now we got the DPS. There is some synergy there: we have a hate transfer so we need the DPS to use it.There is a reason coercer is the most unpopular class on many servers: to level up a coercer is a nightmare and until you are able to solo rewardingly (Bonemire and up) it's really quite dull. There is heavy reliance on a pet because the damage of the class is not there. Without Master 1 of whatever charm you can use it's unbelievably tedious and takes forever to kill anything. Yes heroics and nameds can be solo'd but its tedious and in the end boring. My point is that the reliance on the Master 1 charm throughout levelling must be something that Chris Kozak has an eye on because without it soloing is absolutely not rewarding. The changes on test go some way to making it easier for those that are levelling up which has to be a good thing.After the changes that are on test the burst damage we have is far from what we were used to, granted, and solo we have just lost the reliance on a pet for serious damage. I think this has good and bad aspects: the bad being that the coercer was all about using pets to do our damage for us but with the changes we're now some sort of summoner cross-breed if you count the Possession pet. The romance and flavour of the class history aside, the changes certainly make me more excited about my coercer than I was and make me less inclined to level up my illusionist.However as I posted earlier on I would love to see Possession removed as a DPS pet and changed to a familiar type of thing which gives a small group buff depending on the class of the mob that was possessed. Spell crit/damage for a caster mob. Parry/riposte/weapon skill for a tank mob. Melee crit/combat art for a scout mob. Heal/heal crit for a healer mob. This way they could drop the 3 conc requirement and the spell would be used a lot rather than never.

Grimlux

05-05-2008, 02:59 PM

<cite>Outerspace wrote:</cite><blockquote>Saying coercers parse 7k solo is misleading and repeating it over and over doesn't make it true. Sure on solo mobs that have only 20k health we might do in some cases, but plenty of other classes can do this too. If you measure the DPS from when the fight actually started, i.e. with the root and then debuff(s), and then the application of "proactives" it's nothing like 7k. You can set it up to make it look better than it is by removing proc items so you don't start the fight timer with a proc, but yes I have had a couple of times where I have spiked to 10k DPS on a solo mob, killing it in 2 seconds with a string of critical procs. But is this unreasonable? The fight took longer than 2 seconds, but the phase where I did damage to it didn't.I may be guilty of taking the illusionist out of context at times, but this was within the context of people making outrageous claims that they cannot substantiate. Fnar has already backed up my own view that in a similar group with similar buffs, the coercer class can not match the illusionist class (and here I am assuming that his guildy illusionists are equally knowledgeable of their class). The discrepancy is 1-1.5k DPS plus the fact illusionists get undisputedly better buffs across the board and more useful and wanted AA finishers. Because of this I expect in a similar group and solo that I should be outparsing illusionists after the revamp hits live: they got all the toys but now we got the DPS. There is some synergy there: we have a hate transfer so we need the DPS to use it.There is a reason coercer is the most unpopular class on many servers: to level up a coercer is a nightmare and until you are able to solo rewardingly (Bonemire and up) it's really quite dull. There is heavy reliance on a pet because the damage of the class is not there. Without Master 1 of whatever charm you can use it's unbelievably tedious and takes forever to kill anything. Yes heroics and nameds can be solo'd but its tedious and in the end boring. My point is that the reliance on the Master 1 charm throughout levelling must be something that Chris Kozak has an eye on because without it soloing is absolutely not rewarding. The changes on test go some way to making it easier for those that are levelling up which has to be a good thing.After the changes that are on test the burst damage we have is far from what we were used to, granted, and solo we have just lost the reliance on a pet for serious damage. I think this has good and bad aspects: the bad being that the coercer was all about using pets to do our damage for us but with the changes we're now some sort of summoner cross-breed if you count the Possession pet. The romance and flavour of the class history aside, the changes certainly make me more excited about my coercer than I was and make me less inclined to level up my illusionist.However as I posted earlier on I would love to see Possession removed as a DPS pet and changed to a familiar type of thing which gives a small group buff depending on the class of the mob that was possessed. Spell crit/damage for a caster mob. Parry/riposte/weapon skill for a tank mob. Melee crit/combat art for a scout mob. Heal/heal crit for a healer mob. This way they could drop the 3 conc requirement and the spell would be used a lot rather than never.</blockquote>Nicely done post. I would not be unhappy to see possess changed into what you suggested.

Thraxarious

05-05-2008, 04:41 PM

<cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote>The one vital thing you seem to competely fail to understand Rijaki is that the balancing will take place around min/max part of the game meaning that if Coercers after these changes can consistantly parse 7k dps solo, grouped OR raid, reguardless of how you can or cannot do it, it will get changed to fall in line with a certain consistancy that you and other people like you cannot perform, thus in turn nerfing the casual base also. This is obviously something that will effect you wether you like it or not or even remotely agree with, thus my comparison using min/max sceanrios to begin with because this is where they will do thier fine tuning, which like I said works like a pipeline and will alternatively effect people who can simply not perform.</blockquote> Hmm, As far as I know it, raid content is used as the UPPER marker for adjustments, not the only one. Its not like 'OMG teh Gaem iz onrly 4 Raidrz!!', but many parts of the game have to be considered, not just the raid portion. Sure, the upper level they don't want people to be blasting through high level raid encounters, which is why its put on test first. Concentrate only on raid content and balance and you end up with problems. Don't include the upper level raid instances in the equation and people end up defeating top level content with a raid force below the minimum intended requirement to take it on. I for one am glad coercers are getting a much needed change, and look forward for them to be tweaked more before release and/or afterwards. The previous issues with their power drain only being pertinent in PVP and on ONE (known) PVE monster, just seemed like neglect. I am glad that the earlier changes were them moving forwards to something to make coercers more usable and recognizable. Though from what I hear about possession changes, I guess I'll have to check test out to fully get an idea how it could be usable before I fully speak on it, though the initial reactions I hear are negative. I do kind of like the suggestion put forth by Outerspace.

Trepan

05-05-2008, 04:45 PM

<cite>Outerspace wrote:</cite><blockquote>However as I posted earlier on I would love to see Possession removed as a DPS pet and changed to a familiar type of thing which gives a small group buff depending on the class of the mob that was possessed. Spell crit/damage for a caster mob. Parry/riposte/weapon skill for a tank mob. Melee crit/combat art for a scout mob. Heal/heal crit for a healer mob. This way they could drop the 3 conc requirement and the spell would be used a lot rather than never.</blockquote>I would pony up a beer for Aerlik if this is the way possession was finally implemented... and outerspace. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Rijacki

05-05-2008, 06:08 PM

<cite>Outerspace wrote:</cite><blockquote>However as I posted earlier on I would love to see Possession removed as a DPS pet and changed to a familiar type of thing which gives a small group buff depending on the class of the mob that was possessed. Spell crit/damage for a caster mob. Parry/riposte/weapon skill for a tank mob. Melee crit/combat art for a scout mob. Heal/heal crit for a healer mob. This way they could drop the 3 conc requirement and the spell would be used a lot rather than never.</blockquote>In your concept, would it do damage, too, or be standing around like the tree or fairy things some of the priests cast? Also, what would that equate to that the illusionists have currently? If it was something coercer only, it would need a balancing "concept" for them. Is Phase their level 65 ancient spell that's the analgam of Possession?I like the idea, though. I think that would give flexibility, too.

Outerspace

05-05-2008, 08:00 PM

No, it would not do DPS: simply be like the sorcerer familiar pet but the buff depends on the mob you choose to possess. One downside is that it would be a bit pointless to have the possessed essence visible since it wouldn't actually be doing anything except buffing your group. I know some players would like to have some cool possessed essence walking with them just for fluff purposes. In terms of the actual buff I'm only talking about small numbers for the buffs that it might give: maybe a couple of percent here or there but it's certainly more useful than the current form of the ability and would actualy get used provided it didn't take up more than one concentration. I agree with you Rijacki that this idea does indeed give flexibility and allows us to make decisions on how we play rather than mashing the same buttons. I feel it adds more utility and fun to the class and would benefit all aspects of player be it raider, grouper or soloer.If it's deemed too powerful to say "this mage possession gives +30 spell damage to the group" then make it "1 to 30 spell damage" instead like some procs have.Another thought which I don't think is as good but might be more in line with SOE is instead of a permanent minion it could be a mashable ability that gives an improved buff but for a short time. For example say you were fighting an encounter that typically has a healer, sorcerer, scout and tank type mob in it. If you have a heavy scout group you could mash possession on the scout mob which would infuse your group with the essence of the target, giving the group a temporary buff of +5% melee/ranged crit and +50 combat art damage for a 30 seconds, with a 1 minute cooldown. Most groups tend to have someone in them that can benefit from the buffs of a particular archetype.Unfortunately I don't really feel this would give the coercer a lot of choice with RoK group or raid content though because there aren't many encounters and a large majority of mobs in group and raid zones seem to be based on fighter subclasses. Consequently the coercer would only be able to possess something that would buff her group defensively. These would be useful to the traditional MT coercer though and might help those guilds that are starting out with raids and those at the top end trying to down more difficult stuff but wouldn't necessarily open doors into other types of group. Wouldn't be that useful for soloing either, except when fighting a mage mob.The first idea with the minion type of pet seems more practical since the coercer could go and find a decent one before soloing or raiding and wouldn't have to worry about keep mashing a situational ability and wouldn't be restricted by the mobs available within the zone they are in.I don't really know how it would be balanced with illusionists as I don't know what their 65 spell does.

tralalak44

05-07-2008, 12:51 AM

lets see last test update for coercer in fact reactive dmg was reduced to half !!! this is realy slight adjustmentauspex +10s recast (+100%) , -15% dmg , triggered by melee hit as should becata.mind +5s recast (+50%) , same dmg spell curse +5s recast (+50%) , -40% dmgi hope that whinners are happy, but u can still troll here coz solo mobs parses are almost same as before but on longer fights we will eat the dust as before CONGRATULATION illys u will never see coercer near of u in parseif all reactives goes on 15s i can live with it but this last change simply kicks coercers back where they were before, atlast we gain some more utility <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />((

Rijacki

05-07-2008, 02:23 AM

4 spells or spell lines were changed.Hostage6 May change 30 April (original Test)<img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/Hostage_0506.jpg" alt="" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/Hostage.jpg" alt="" border="0" />Current Live <img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/Hostage_Live.jpg" alt="" border="0" />Spell Curse6 May Change 30 April Test<img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/SpellCurse0506.jpg" alt="" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/SpellCurse.jpg" alt="" border="0" />Current Live<img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/SpellCurse_Live.jpg" alt="" border="0" />Puppetmaster6 May change 30 April Test<img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/Puppetmaster0506.jpg" alt="" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/Puppetmaster.jpg" alt="" border="0" />Current Live<img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/Puppetmaster_Live.jpg" alt="" border="0" />Peaceful Link / Harmonious Link6 May change 5 May <img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/PeacefulLink0506.jpg" alt="" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/HarmoniousLink0506.jpg" alt="" border="0" /> 30 April 30 April Harmonious Link identical to Peaceful Link<img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/PeacefulLink.jpg" alt="" border="0" /> Current Live Current Live<img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/PeacefulLink_Live.jpg" alt="" border="0" /> <img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/HarmoniousLink_Live.jpg" alt="" border="0" />I started out tired tonight. I've got some real life stress hitting me hard right now (on top of the usual job stuff, my dad went into hospital at noon with renal failure after 2 months with worsening health issues) and just was not on my "game". My timing it off and my reactions are a bit slow. On the 30th, all that wouldn't have mattered, there was a definite element of "Easy Button" to doing damage.I went up against Eldrig on the 30th and toasted him with real messy style and no need to be in "good form". He killed me twice tonight but the fights were -very- close (close enough the parses do have some valid information to ponder). As I said, I wasn't "on my game" or he would have gone down without a death. There is some measure of skill back (and this is a good thing - a double up heroic shouldn't be an easy push over solo without really good gear and mostly masters).BUT, the really interesting thing in my Eldrig parses wasn't how fast the damage was done (waaaaaay more than current Live but visibly less than 30 April Test), it was how the damage was broken up. The Spell Lash line has had its damage changed from "Convulsions" to "Lash" to distinguish it from the damage done by Hostage (Sibyllant line).w/ Melee charmed pet vs Eldrig<img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/Eldrig_ACT_pie_0506melee.jpg" alt="" border="0" />w/ mage charmed pet<img src="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/Eldrig_ACT_pie_0506mage.jpg" alt="" border="0" />I was going to get parses with a Troubie duo (my boyfriend copied his troub), but when he fell asleep on 2 consecutive Sokokar flights and then when he was running out to where I was obtaining a pet, I realised he was even more tired than me and sent him to go spread his snore germs some place other than his computer chair.I was going to do some Possessed vs Charmed melee/mage parses but my yawns kept making my eyes a little blurry.So, I decided to at least put out this information for now.My opinion based on the minimal time I spent with it tonight: The adjustment looks to be in the right direction. It's a lot more damage and utility than we have now on Live without making coercers into teh second coming. On first impressions, it's probably pretty close or exactly where the GU is going to put us.Sure, it was fun being over powered on Test for a few days, but it wouldn't have been worth it for the long term and the longevity of the game.Besides, with these changes there really will be a lot of distinction between an excellent coercer, a very good one, a good one, an adequate one, and a sucky one. That difference will be a matter of skill player skill and attentiveness without an "Easy Button". I like it (and I'll strive to get to the status of very good and excellent).

Aeralik

05-07-2008, 04:33 AM

<cite>tralalak44 wrote:</cite><blockquote>lets see last test update for coercer in fact reactive dmg was reduced to half !!! this is realy slight adjustmentauspex +10s recast (+100%) , -15% dmg , triggered by melee hit as should becata.mind +5s recast (+50%) , same dmg spell curse +5s recast (+50%) , -40% dmgi hope that whinners are happy, but u can still troll here coz solo mobs parses are almost same as before but on longer fights we will eat the dust as before CONGRATULATION illys u will never see coercer near of u in parseif all reactives goes on 15s i can live with it but this last change simply kicks coercers back where they were before, atlast we gain some more utility <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />(( </blockquote>Cataclysmic Mind didnt change with this test update. In fact you guys are testing the old one since I added an upgrade to it for GU45. The new one is Tyrannous Mind and if you see me on test you can stop by and I'll give you a copy of it to try out <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

chily

05-07-2008, 05:53 AM

Is the fastest possible recast of channel and channeling still 7.5 minutes when you spend 5 AA point's in it?Would it be possible to add a stoneskin trigger to peaceful link or anything else that reduces the taken damge when peaceful link triggers?No matter if the trigger chance is 25%, 40% or 100% if a epicx4 hit's a mage or scout they are dead in 1 shoot even peaceful link triggered.

chily

05-07-2008, 08:11 AM

Nice that Spell curse has a diff dmg then Hostage now, nice to see the difference while dps tracking with it.But why does hostage has as skill Ordination still and not Disruption like Spell curse and the most of the other dps only spells?

Elephanton

05-07-2008, 09:41 AM

Because it is debuff?

Encantador

05-07-2008, 09:47 AM

Not sure if it is a change on test or not ... Coercive Healing can only be cast on a priest class, I thought I remembered casting this on myself once while trying things out.

chily

05-07-2008, 09:52 AM

<cite>ElephantonRU wrote:</cite><blockquote>Because it is debuff?</blockquote>Hostage is no debuff, it's a melee dmg porc.Asylum is a dot and debuff for example.

Rijacki

05-07-2008, 10:58 AM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>tralalak44 wrote:</cite><blockquote>lets see last test update for coercer in fact reactive dmg was reduced to half !!! this is realy slight adjustmentauspex +10s recast (+100%) , -15% dmg , triggered by melee hit as should becata.mind +5s recast (+50%) , same dmg spell curse +5s recast (+50%) , -40% dmgi hope that whinners are happy, but u can still troll here coz solo mobs parses are almost same as before but on longer fights we will eat the dust as before CONGRATULATION illys u will never see coercer near of u in parseif all reactives goes on 15s i can live with it but this last change simply kicks coercers back where they were before, atlast we gain some more utility <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" />(( </blockquote>Cataclysmic Mind didnt change with this test update. In fact you guys are testing the old one since I added an upgrade to it for GU45. The new one is Tyrannous Mind and if you see me on test you can stop by and I'll give you a copy of it to try out <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>One of the other reasons I screen shot everything and have them on my <a href="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/Comparison.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Comparisons</a> page is so I can quickly note when y'all change things and what the changes really are <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> For the sake of time, I didn't re-shoot anything that had a difference of only 1 or 2 damage points 'cause that is explainable by having some int drink up that I had run out of when I took the originals. I also have a screen shot of my stats (from Live but it was the same set I was wearing on Test) with the listing of which gear (so I can match it before comparing). Removing variables is the only way to get semi accurate test *grin*IF you're on when I can be on (i.e. after 6pm Pacific), I'll get the new one from you. I've been hoping for an 80 sage to be copied so I could get it that way or at least screen shot the apprentice IV one (to which I would screenshot an apprentice IV one of CM).Thanks Aeralik!Oh... and why is the text on Puppet master keep changing? to be more clear or is there something with summoning in a certain order?

Nor

05-07-2008, 12:37 PM

Perhaps I'm missing something here.From the screenshots that were posted on page 7...what I see is a decrease in damage?The former hit on melee is now hit when melee'd....in otherwords I can't use a caster pet, I need something that will melee (when solo) or I need to whack'a'mole?The spell line is a bit nicer, but reduced in damage and increased in recast timer...The hate line doesn't matter when solo.I don't have pupetmaster as I'm still in my 50's.What am I missing as far as increased dps here? Or do the other spells that have damage attached make up for the loss in damage on these ones?

nirate

05-07-2008, 12:39 PM

Wrapye

05-07-2008, 12:44 PM

<cite>nirate wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>tralalak44 wrote:</cite><blockquote>lets see last test update for coercer in fact reactive dmg was reduced to half !!! this is realy slight adjustmentauspex +10s recast (+100%) , -15% dmg , triggered by melee hit as should becata.mind +5s recast (+50%) , same dmg spell curse +5s recast (+50%) , -40% dmgi hope that whinners are happy, but u can still troll here coz solo mobs parses are almost same as before but on longer fights we will eat the dust as before CONGRATULATION illys u will never see coercer near of u in parseif all reactives goes on 15s i can live with it but this last change simply kicks coercers back where they were before, atlast we gain some more utility <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" />">(( </blockquote>Cataclysmic Mind didnt change with this test update. In fact you guys are testing the old one since I added an upgrade to it for GU45. The new one is Tyrannous Mind and if you see me on test you can stop by and I'll give you a copy of it to try out <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>And i was hoping that auspex would stay magic based. Honestly now we have an illusionist ability. Im a coercer not an illusionist, keep it spell based! If you cant land 5 spells on a mob in 15 seconds there is something wrong with you.</blockquote>You mean like when the mob is immune to spells for a while (which was used in Labs) or simply has very high resists in general, or to mental in particular (there were more than a couple of those in Halls of Seeing)? Having it proc on melee gives flexibility. That should be the hallmark of a utility class.

Cawti

05-07-2008, 12:47 PM

My level 80 coercer is also an 80 sage, so I made a copy of the new level 80 Mind and put it up on the broker for 999 plat so people could check it out.I (and several others) were at the wall testing, and once I got a decent spell order going I was parsing 2.8-3.5k on the wall with my (I'd say) medium grade raid gear.I have a mix of quested and tier 1-tier2 stuff. I'm keyed for VP but haven't looted anything there yet. It feels about right where a similarly geared illy would be, maybe a tiny bit ahead? I have the wicked wand of malice, though, which added around 8% by itself.Hostage still can't be cast on the wall. That should add a big chunk.Possessed fighter pets seem to run around 500dps, with Impetus, on the wall (if debuffed). Not huge but I can see the use of one.All told, I like it and after the huge nerf to damage doubt it's still overpowered.

Rijacki

05-07-2008, 05:13 PM

<cite>Noruh wrote:</cite><blockquote>Perhaps I'm missing something here.From the screenshots that were posted on page 7...what I see is a decrease in damage?The former hit on melee is now hit when melee'd....in otherwords I can't use a caster pet, I need something that will melee (when solo) or I need to whack'a'mole?The spell line is a bit nicer, but reduced in damage and increased in recast timer...The hate line doesn't matter when solo.I don't have pupetmaster as I'm still in my 50's.What am I missing as far as increased dps here? Or do the other spells that have damage attached make up for the loss in damage on these ones?</blockquote>For two of the spells, it is a decrease vs the first batch that were put on Test. Vs Live, though, it is still a MASSIVE improvement. The damage potential in the first batch on Test was a bit over powered. The changes scaled it back. When things are on Test, they're still being tweaked.

Ran

05-08-2008, 12:34 PM

omg... i had to laugh on some posts... really 'bout stupidity...For all those which see high parses and starts crying.... take illu.. compare.. and be quiet!A lot of people have in they're mind.. Illu = great dps + great utility compared to a Coercer... just a changeable mt class with 1k + dps minus overall.On Live.. if all Mobs would throw out AE's all 40 sec we would be a good dmg class..... not a t1 but a good one like dirges/illus allready are. I think a lot of people see high dps numbers... remembering they're slacking coercer and starts crying bout this big boost cause her guy put out 900 dps cause he don't knew his class. I've seen a lot of those guys..... I heared much times... "how can you make that amount of dps?" on specific mobs like chel'drak etc. . Those dps parses after the nerf are not overpowered.. they are just fine in line. And to this guy which plays a berserker..... you are a [Removed for Content] tank and you should be nerfed for that amount of dps you can put out.... just for the "OVERPOWERED" crying from your side.

Nor

05-08-2008, 12:43 PM

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Noruh wrote:</cite><blockquote>Perhaps I'm missing something here.From the screenshots that were posted on page 7...what I see is a decrease in damage?The former hit on melee is now hit when melee'd....in otherwords I can't use a caster pet, I need something that will melee (when solo) or I need to whack'a'mole?The spell line is a bit nicer, but reduced in damage and increased in recast timer...The hate line doesn't matter when solo.I don't have pupetmaster as I'm still in my 50's.What am I missing as far as increased dps here? Or do the other spells that have damage attached make up for the loss in damage on these ones?</blockquote>For two of the spells, it is a decrease vs the first batch that were put on Test. Vs Live, though, it is still a MASSIVE improvement. The damage potential in the first batch on Test was a bit over powered. The changes scaled it back. When things are on Test, they're still being tweaked.</blockquote>I was comparing screenshots of the "new changes" (May 6) versus current live ones. My questions stand as is...Perhps I'll make it easier to see, without having to scroll back to see them.Hostage:Current Test (May 6): 1238-1479 Damage, 18.7 recastCurrent Live: 1283 - 1533, 9.3 recastThis means, higher recast, less damage and I have to somehow do melee damage when solo...Spell CurseCurrent Test (May 6): 998-1202, 18.7 recastCurrent Live: 1302-1556, 14 recastThis means lower damage and higher recast - although I don't have to wait for them to cast a spell, so it may wash...sort of.So what am I missing?

Aeralik

05-08-2008, 01:02 PM

<cite>Chillispike@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote>But why does hostage has as skill Ordination still and not Disruption like Spell curse and the most of the other dps only spells?</blockquote>I switched it to disruption yesterday so you should be seeing that on test hopefully soon.

-Aonein-

05-08-2008, 01:16 PM

<cite>Sziroten@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote>omg... i had to laugh on some posts... really 'bout stupidity...For all those which see high parses and starts crying.... take illu.. compare.. and be quiet!A lot of people have in they're mind.. Illu = great dps + great utility compared to a Coercer... just a changeable mt class with 1k + dps minus overall.On Live.. if all Mobs would throw out AE's all 40 sec we would be a good dmg class..... not a t1 but a good one like dirges/illus allready are. I think a lot of people see high dps numbers... remembering they're slacking coercer and starts crying bout this big boost cause her guy put out 900 dps cause he don't knew his class. I've seen a lot of those guys..... I heared much times... "how can you make that amount of dps?" on specific mobs like chel'drak etc. . Those dps parses after the nerf are not overpowered.. they are just fine in line. And to this guy which plays a berserker..... you are a [I cannot control my vocabulary] tank and you should be nerfed for that amount of dps you can put out.... just for the "OVERPOWERED" crying from your side.</blockquote> You must have a reading disability then that or didn't really read all the posts now did you, come you can tell us the truth.

Ran

05-08-2008, 02:47 PM

<cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><cite></cite><blockquote> The one vital thing you seem to competely fail to understand Rij is that the balancing will take place around min/max part of the game meaning that if Coercers after these changes can consistantly parse 7k dps solo, grouped OR raid</blockquote>you took this 7k dps of a training wall parser?... hm our Assasine did 9k dps... is he doing 9k dps in group? solo? or in Raid? constantly? no!... so you have a failure somewhere....

XFnarX

05-08-2008, 03:31 PM

Back on topic... they patched test again today... currently downloading and will post if I notice anything major.**EDIT** Apparently my character was a major patch item and was deleted from test. Annoying. Post if you noticed anything! lol

Rijacki

05-08-2008, 04:31 PM

<cite>Noruh wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Hostage:Current Test (May 6): 1238-1479 Damage, 18.7 recastCurrent Live: 1283 - 1533, 9.3 recastThis means, higher recast, less damage and I have to somehow do melee damage when solo...Spell CurseCurrent Test (May 6): 998-1202, 18.7 recastCurrent Live: 1302-1556, 14 recastThis means lower damage and higher recast - although I don't have to wait for them to cast a spell, so it may wash...sort of.So what am I missing?</blockquote>Current Hostage Live:Target needs to damage you or an ally with a melee auto-damage hit for the spell damage to trigger. Stun and daze prevent the target from causing damage to you or an ally. You and your allies' Mitigation, Avoidance, and Wards prevent the target from causing damage to you or an ally. Rooting the target and "nuking" from afar prevents the target from doing any damage to you or even your pet (if it, too, is at range). Most, if not all, the triggers will be lost before the duration is up and definitely before the recast is up, even if no one stuns or dazes the target, solo, group, and/or raid (but especially the later 2). Damage from Hostage on Live can be, and often is, zero per cast. The achievement to get additional triggers is a waste.Current Hostage on Test:Target needs to be damaged by melee by you or an ally for the spell damage to trigger. Stun, daze, you and your allies' mitigation, avoidance, and wards do not prevent the triggers. Rooting a target in place and "nuking" it from afar will prevent the triggers from occurring. At level 80, using Puppetmaster will result in melee hits which will cause the triggers. Using a melee pet will cause the triggers. Allowing a caster pet to melee as well as cast will cause the triggers. Wading in and whacking it with your staff and/or poking it with a dagger will allow the trigger to occur. Being in a group or raid with melees as well as casters will allow the triggers to occur. In most situations, all of the triggers will occur before the recast and most likely definitely before the duration is expired. The achievement to get additional triggers is a boon.The fact the damage will trigger on hits to the target rather than the target doing damage to you or an ally will mean more damage. Hitting the target with some melee is rather easy at all levels.Current Spell Curse on Live:Target needs to damage you or an ally with aspell damage for the spell damage to trigger. Stun and stifle prevent the target from causing damage to you or an ally. You and your allies' resistances, mitigation, avoidance, and wards prevent the target from causing damage to you or an ally. Unless your target is a caster, rooting the target and "nuking" from afar prevents the target from doing any damage to you or even your pet (if it, too, is at range). Frequently, most or even all, the triggers will be lost before the duration is up or even reacast is up, even if no one stuns or stifles the target, solo, group, and/or raid (but especially the later 2). Damage from Spell Curse on Live can be zero per cast. The achievement to get additional triggers can be a waste.Current Spell Curse on Test:Target needs to be damaged by spells from you or an ally for the spell damage to trigger. Stun, stifle, you and your allies' mitigation, resistances, avoidance, and wards do not prevent the triggers. Rooting a target in place and "nuking" it from afar with a melee pet or a mage pet will allow the triggers to occur. In most situations solo, group, or raid, all of the triggers will occur before the recast and most definitely before the duration is expired. The achievement to get additional triggers is a boon. You're also missing the changes to Cataclysmic Mind (and the new level 80 * Mind).Current Cataclysmic Mind on Live:Target needs to use power in order for the damage to trigger. Stun and stifle prevent the target from using power. The target using abilities uses no power. In many situations, especially group or raid, it is quite common for only the last burst of CM to hit the target and only then if its entire duration is allowed to transpire. For many coercers, they use CM only to provide chances for other procs and not for its own damage capability. For many situations, the damage from CM is zero.Current Cataclysmic Mind on Test:The target (you or an ally) need to use a spell to damage the target's target. The target's target being stunned or stifled will have no effect on the trigger occurring. In most situations, all triggers will occur before the recast.You're also missing the rest of the changes, but.. this is enough for now.