Constructive Feedback VS Frustration

[ReficulFonwaps]

<p>Ok, I keep reading the post from Gnorbin telling us to provide constructive feedback about shadowknight, be patient, if there are problems they will be fixed, etc, etc. I just randomly went back to the year 2005 in these fine forums to bring up this one VERY  important point. The very same things, the very same conversations about the sk class have been going on for an extremely long time.</p><p>My question is this: Just how long are we expected to wait?</p><p>2005 Feedback, Look Familiar??</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=91801" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...?topic_id=91801</a></p><p>And the frustration of being ignored (2005), Familiar??</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=92081" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...?topic_id=92081</a></p><p>It is really astonishing that these are almost the exact same topics being discussed on the front page of the shadowknight forum EXACTLY THREE YEARS LATER. If you play a shadowknight, you really have to scratch your head for a minute and wonder what the heck is going on here.</p>

[Jerik_EQ2]

<p>Wow... that first post from Feb 2005 could have been written this week.  38 months later and the same problems still exist.</p>

[Gnobrin]

<p>C'mon folks, there's issues like this for ALL classes.  If you have a present issue, please voice them in a constructive manner and not spam the forums with the same "we're broken" posts that are not going to be read by the folks you want to read them.  Constructive posts with information pertaining to that issue is read, lashing out and posting another "we're broke" thread isn't.</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p>

[evilgamer]

<p>Wow, pretty telling.</p><p>Also my SK is a mana hog compared to my bruiser.</p>

[Tolil]

<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=415117" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=415117</a><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=416354" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=416354</a>Here's a couple posts to start you off.. nice and constructive for the most part, thought I'd link them here incase they haven't been noticed.

[Jerma]

<p>Gnobrin, you keep saying these posts have no constructive feedback.  SO what i get out of it is either 1.  you havent looked at the hundreds of posts filled with constructive feedback, or 2.  you read them but simply ignore them.  It doesnt really matter, the point is this forum has been filled with constuctive feedback for a long time and the issues never get addressed.  Your upset because people on these forums are getting frustrated.  So please by all means let us know how we can go about saying the same things over and over again that has already been said constructivly in a new way.  I can make it really simple, if SOE thinks the SK is functioning the way it should be and is not in need of a change, then let us know.  If the SK as a class is being looked into to see where the problems are, then let us know.  Its that simple</p>

[Lader]

it really does seem pointless to try to work with the community moderators, as they tell you to post contructive feedback and yet ignore the 100's of posts in all the other areas of the forums that pertain to this. the other most recent post by gnobrin in this forum says to make a post stating the problems, not asking questions. I personally have read several posts stating the problems. moderators need to open their eyes instead of making inane posts and maybe the feedback would get somewhere useful.

[ReficulFonwaps]

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>......If you have a present issue, please voice them.....</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p></blockquote>The point here is that this has been a "present issue" for well over three years. I don't know what to do to make this any more clear.

[Echgar]

<cite>Nunya@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Gnobrin, you keep saying these posts have no constructive feedback.  SO what i get out of it is either 1.  you havent looked at the hundreds of posts filled with constructive feedback, or 2.  you read them but simply ignore them.  It doesnt really matter, the point is this forum has been filled with constuctive feedback for a long time and the issues never get addressed.  Your upset because people on these forums are getting frustrated.</p></blockquote><p>Upset?  Not really, no.  Just trying to offer better ways of working together as a community that the developers are apt to find helpful for those posters willing to listen. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><blockquote><p>So please by all means let us know how we can go about saying the same things over and over again that has already been said constructivly in a new way.</p></blockquote>I understand a few of you are really frustrated and feel like you have given feedback over and over -- it's all over the forum recently!  The thing is, there is feedback out there, but it is buried in a whole lot of noise.  Even when there is a nugget of good information, threads get sidetracked easily, don't necessarily have complete data, and so on.Rather than linking threads/posts back to 2005 about the Shadowknight tale of woe, I suggest you pick someone to start an issues list that you update periodically based on feedback from the community.  That way, you can have a central thread the developers can look at.  Keep it constructive, include relevant data, and maybe even provide links to other discussion threads if necessary.Is an issues thread a 'silver bullet' to the Shadowknight problems?  No, probably not.  Some of you seem pretty darn frustrated and appear to want developer attention NOW and if that's the case, you might be setting yourself up for disappointment.  It can, however, help give an overview of the types of issues you are seeing, the segment of the community it is effecting, and possible solutions if you've thought of them.  Quite often, issues will effect only high end PvP raiders in a given class, for example, and that information can be vital in understanding.I am just a forum moderator.  I am here to enforce the forum rules and generally keep the peace.  As I mentioned, I understand a handful of you are really peeved.  While I am sure you could pick my words apart, I hope you instead take them to heart and try to find better ways of getting your point across.  As I mentioned, all the complaining does is make for a whole lot of noise that buries the real issues and I don't think you want that! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Gnobrin]

<p>::points at Echgar::</p><p>It's his fault.</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p>

[Gehemnishthex]

<cite>Echgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nunya@Oasis wrote:</cite>Rather than linking threads/posts back to 2005 about the Shadowknight tale of woe, I suggest you pick someone to start an issues list that you update periodically based on feedback from the community.  </blockquote>Like this one?<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=415117" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=415117</a>

[Tiberuis]

<p>Yep, that post looks about right Slag...</p><p>OK SOE, I won't charge you for this this time...but if someone took the 30 secs required to post up something like this...</p><p><i><span style="color: #990099;">"We are aware of the issue of class balance with the Shadowknight, and we are currently towards balancing this class with the other plate tank classes.   </span></i></p><p><i><span style="color: #990099;"> "The objective is to improve the Shadowknight without drastically changing any core values of the class identity.  We cannot elaborate on the specifics of our work at this time, but rest assured the Shadowknight is an important plate tank class to us here at SOE/EQ2, and we are striving to ensure that proper class balance is achieved for solo, instance, and raid effectiveness."</span></i></p><p>...we would have a LOT less unhappy SK's trolling the forums, looking for a glimmer of hope, and constantly flaming in the hope of getting someone's attention...</p>

[Echgar]

<cite>Slagnath@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Echgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nunya@Oasis wrote:</cite>Rather than linking threads/posts back to 2005 about the Shadowknight tale of woe, I suggest you pick someone to start an issues list that you update periodically based on feedback from the community.  </blockquote>Like this one?<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=415117" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=415117</a></blockquote>Yes exactly (and I'd actually already seen that list previously).  Great example of an issues list -- assuming you are a raider! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[ReficulFonwaps]

<cite>Echgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Slagnath@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Echgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nunya@Oasis wrote:</cite>Rather than linking threads/posts back to 2005 about the Shadowknight tale of woe, I suggest you pick someone to start an issues list that you update periodically based on feedback from the community.  </blockquote>Like this one?<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=415117" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=415117</a></blockquote>Yes exactly (and I'd actually already seen that list previously).  Great example of an issues list -- assuming you are a raider! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Raiding is the only real issue with SK's, and has been for over three years now as I showed with this thread. SK's are actually one of the better group tank classes actually. Your suggestion about compiling all the issues with our class was a good one, but it has been done time and time again, that is why you see all this frustration now. Compiled constructive posts were made on these forums in 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008.... Still nothing has been done. There were also excellent threads full of the data you're asking for on eq2flames, and yes, the threads were there back when devs were active in that community. Give me a few minutes and I could pull up those years worth of threads for ya if you really want me to hehe <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Jurmoon]

<p>I think the reason you are seeing such an outpouring of frustration right now is the timing of the recent coercer upgrades and shadowknight nerf.   It has been the general opion of the EQ2 community (as seen in numerous threads) that shadowknights and coercers were the least wanted, least effective classes in the game.   At almost the same time the developers finally responded to the coercer community and are putting in a MAJOR fix, the shadowknight class received a nerf to one of their class defining abilities without any official mention in the update notes or in the forums.</p><p>People have become emotionally involved with the game and with their characters.  That's good.  With a market share as low as EQ2, this game desperately needs a passionate and loyal fan base.  (It is ten times more expensive to gain a new customer than it is to retain an old one)   And when you have a passionate fan base, actions like the above are often taken personally rather than objectively.</p><p> If the developers want empirical data demonstrating that the class has problems in the raiding game, allow me to suggest that they drop a level 80 shadowknight into the game world on any server at any time and try it for themselves.   Run a few raids.  It will be readily apparent that you are the least effective member of the raid force.   Try running an instance with a brigand, warlock, wizard, ranger or brawler and see if you can keep aggro.  Compare and contrast that shadowknight with any other class and see how they stack up.   Don't take my word for it.   </p><p> I'm not going to go in to the various issues, those are already being assembled in another thread.   And I'm not going to rant and rave and cancel my account, I still believe in the game even if I no longer believe in the shadowknight class.  I will be at Fan Faire and I'll bring along all the data available to me to try and find a receptive ear.    </p><p> Let's all play nice...</p>

[Gehemnishthex]

<cite>Echgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Yes exactly (and I'd actually already seen that list previously).  Great example of an issues list -- assuming you are a raider! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>It was posted by a raider, but a lot of the core issues discussed and bugs posted effect everyone down the line from newblett to uber-raider.  I don't really raid at all, but nearly every issue is apparent to me in some degree or another as an sk-mained-player.

[Beldin_]

<cite>ReficulFonwaps wrote:</cite><blockquote>Raiding is the only real issue with SK's, and has been for over three years now as I showed with this thread. SK's are actually one of the better group tank classes actually. </blockquote>I think the group tank abilities have also gotten a big hit with RoK because SKs were great against multiple encounters but never that great at single-target aggro.

[Skeleton]

<p>Being somewhat new to the shadowknight community (rolled a month before RoK), I did not start reading the SK forums until this year and I never did read any old threads.  One thing I did notice from when I started reading up till now is lack of communication from soe about anything on these threads. I am glad to see some attention and it makes me feel at least they started reading the SK boards. I also found this bit of information which I have posted on eq2flames. </p><p><b>Destinova -</b> *Istar* Is there any plans to reevalute the Crusder (SK/Pally) Itemizations stats and Spells/CAs to bring them more in balance with the Rest of the fighters. AKA right now are mesh in going to between 4-5 stats meanwhile other fighters are focusing on 3.. While the gear out there realy tuned for 3 stats as well. <b>Archonix -</b> We're currently evaluating the benefits certain classes gain from differing attributes. No specifics yet, but it's on the radar. We're also looking at combining the effects of +CA Damage and +Spell damage down the road for Paladins and Shadowknights. </p><p>I dont want this thread to get sidetracked (even know I think it will), I just thought you guys might want to see at least they are looking into our class.  To read the entire Q&A log with the devs where I got that information, check out <a href="http://www.stratics.com/php-bin/show_content.php?content=27277" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.stratics.com/php-bin/sho...p?content=27277</a></p>

[seamus]

<cite>Jurmoon wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>...If the developers want empirical data demonstrating that the class has problems in the raiding game, allow me to suggest that they drop a level 80 shadowknight into the game world on any server at any time and try it for themselves.   Run a few raids. ...</p></blockquote><p>You should have said, "try to get into a serious raid guild", not "try it for themselves". <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Of course this is a common issue for all tank classes, even if SK's were given the little bit of love they need in order to compete with Guardians for a tanking job it would be difficult to get a spot on a raid. Raids only have a couple spots for tanks.</p><p>In addition to giving SK's the tweaks they need to bring them up to par with Guardians, (let's face it, Guardians are and have always been the bar to measure against), SOE needs to give the tank classes unique abilities that will contribute directly to a raid's performance. Additionally SOE needs to create and balance <b>content/encounters</b> so that it requires multiple tanks and that takes advantage of the different tank class-specific abilities. </p><p>Consider this: taking a look at the rogue classes, (brigand and swashie), for example, not only do they contribute DPS they also contribute debuffs and hate transfer. They provide three benefits to a raid. Seems to me rogues would still get raid invites if they simply provided dps, (I think you see where I am going), would it not be prudent to consider providing some of these abilities, especially hate transfer to the other tank classes? It just seems that classes, like the rogues, get overloaded with several abilities that make them desirable for raids while the tank classes are considered, (whether rightfully or not), one trick ponies. And since Guardians perform this 'one trick' better or more easily then the other tank classes they get the one and/or two spots available for tanks on a raid.</p><p>A change like this would also help the assassin and ranger classes which are also overlooked since rogues can bring about the same dps but a lot more utility. To put it more simply, the distribution of raid desirable abilities is very poor in EQ2 and ultimately they need to be redistributed for the 'good of the game'.</p><p>Of course I don't expect something like this to be considered, while certain classes would get buffs others would be nerfed and I expect SOE would consider the fallout simply not worth the effort. I also understand it would be a hefty undertaking because of the way content and raids are balanced today. So, barring SOE doing the right thing, I guess the question is: 'What kind of band-aid fixes can we come up with to help SK's become desirable in Raids?'</p>

[Phank]

<cite>Echgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nunya@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>I understand a few of you are really frustrated and feel like you have given feedback over and over </blockquote></blockquote><p>A "few" of us?  You really need to listen to guk.sk on a nightly basis or better yet read the messages posted both here and on eq2flames.  The players currently playing Shadowknights are limited in number sure.  So many of us have either betrayed or rolled a new toon because of years (seriously) of imbalance.</p><p>We don't want to be overpowered.  We just want a spot on raids.  We are sick of being told, " Will you betray?"  We are sick of having to run ACT to see how badly we got beat on the last encounter.  We are sick of being moved around in raid makeup because raid leaders are simply trying to find the "best spot" for our class.  We are sick of being asked over and over what we bring to the table.  We are sick of being told here, in our community no less, that only a few of us are upset and having threads shut down left and right.  The change to Despoiling Mist is the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back.  It's plain to see that you had a community fedup and frustrated with how we have been ignored over the years.  And the nerf in LU44 has simply opened up the wound.</p><p>The posts from 3 years ago echo today's sentiments almost verbatim.  That cannot be good.</p>

[Beldin_]

<p>I really start to think the only way to fix the "class X not needed in raid" dilemma, is something like double the hitpoints of the mobs for each class that is more than once in the raid. </p><p>However this can never be achieved through class balancing, if they push SKs now, then Palas and Zerkers will cry until they are pushed again over SKs. Also of course Bruisers and Monk will always complain that nobody needs them as MT even as it also was said back in the days that every fighter class should tank similiar .. </p><p>So they bring up Bruiser, Monks, SKs all up that they can MT Raids as good as guardians .. next will be that guardians complain about their solo-abilities, because all they could do were tanking raids. So the next will be a NERF to SKs, Bruisers and Monk so that they don't solo better than guards because they now can tank as good as them.</p><p>After that again raids only need now maybe an SK and a Bruiser .. so all 6 tank classes start to cry that they need more utilities/dps because thats the only way to get maybe a scout-spot ... and of course fighters need dirge-buffs because a raid can always use 3 Dirges but never 3 of the same fighter-class ...</p>

[Phank]

<cite>Echgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>Great example of an issues list -- assuming you are a raider! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>Again, this makes me think Sony is happy with the Shadowknight being more popular among soloists or alt groups than actual primary characters in the end game content.</p><p>I have never created an alt, and I have played my SK since launch.  For me, this game is about end content and being the best at my class.  That does not include giving up on my class because Sony is content with them being solo alt toons.</p><p>Challenge for any Dev at Sony.  Create a 80 Paladin and a 80 Shadowknight.  Start applying to raid guilds in EQ2.  You will quickly realize why we are frustrated.</p>

[Tiberuis]

<p>Hi All,</p><p>Some great ideas and feedback on this thread, thanks for starting the thread Reficulfonwaps.</p><p>Please fell free to support DarkC's thread, titled "What Do Raiding SK's Need,"  and post up your specific SK raiding issues and mechanics there as well.  I think it is important to separate the group MT mechanics and raiding mechanics issues, for the benefit of the mods and devs, at this point.</p><p>Keep up the grreat feedback SK's! </p>

[ReficulFonwaps]

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hi All,</p><p>Some great ideas and feedback on this thread, thanks for starting the thread Reficulfonwaps.</p><p>Please fell free to support DarkC's thread, titled "What Do Raiding SK's Need,"  and post up your specific SK raiding issues and mechanics there as well.  I think it is important to separate the group MT mechanics and raiding mechanics issues, for the benefit of the mods and devs, at this point.</p><p>Keep up the grreat feedback SK's! </p></blockquote><p>That's a nice thread DarkC started, but sadly I will not be able to participate in it very much as I have already cancelled my EQ2 account. It expires on May 2nd, but I will still be around on the eq2flames forum. SK's have truly been going through this for years, and I have seen many threads like DarkC's over that time period. I just see no reason for me to sit around waiting another 3 years or so on this, especially with no light at the end of the tunnel.</p><p>To all you SK's who are sticking around, I wish you the best of luck with that thread! I honestly hope this class gets some nice fixes.</p>

[Phelon_Skellhound]

<cite>Echgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Slagnath@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Echgar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nunya@Oasis wrote:</cite>Rather than linking threads/posts back to 2005 about the Shadowknight tale of woe, I suggest you pick someone to start an issues list that you update periodically based on feedback from the community.  </blockquote>Like this one?<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=415117" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=415117</a></blockquote>Yes exactly (and I'd actually already seen that list previously).  Great example of an issues list -- assuming you are a raider! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>Don't forget this one its pretty huge difference cuz of our itemization of armor.... </p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=411374�" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...74�</a></p>

[Faelgalad]

<p>One class imbalances 5 other classes. This is unique! No other class group is dominated by one of them. </p><p>Nothing has be done in years!</p><p>My solution, delete the Guardian class. </p><p>Radical! But if they can't get it fixed, solve the problem, delete the problem. </p>

[Miwyen]

<p>I..... saw a red named in the SK forum! *faints*</p><p>*wakesup*</p><p>hello oh mighty red name visiting this humble forum! *realizes the red name is probebly allready gone, but maybe never will get closer*</p><p>Please... could you consider helping the SK class slightly so that you dont get called idiot in groups just becurse they havent betrayed? it is realy sad that there is a class that are geting told they are useless in this game, so if you still rea reading, atleast worth 5 seconds of considerment if it was ment to be this way? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Beldin_]

<cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>One class imbalances 5 other classes. This is unique! No other class group is dominated by one of them. </p><p>Nothing has be done in years!</p><p>My solution, delete the Guardian class. </p><p>Radical! But if they can't get it fixed, solve the problem, delete the problem. </p></blockquote><p>Hey .. they are also total useless .. read this thread for a laugh :</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=400889" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=400889</a></p><p>The best there is complaing about that Monks (a TANK class !!) are tanking RoK instances <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Mathafern]

<cite>Miwyen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I..... saw a red named in the SK forum! *faints*</p><p>*wakesup*</p><p>hello oh mighty red name visiting this humble forum! *realizes the red name is probebly allready gone, but maybe never will get closer*</p><p>Please... could you consider helping the SK class slightly so that you dont get called idiot in groups just becurse they havent betrayed? it is realy sad that there is a class that are geting told they are useless in this game, so if you still rea reading, atleast worth 5 seconds of considerment if it was ment to be this way? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></p></blockquote> To paraphrase the famous coercer: "This is not the red named you want.  Move along." The red name we want is one of the devs who balances classes or develops content.  Not the one who locks threads because people violate the forum rules. I suspect that SK issues are way down on the list of priorities for those red names.  Higher up would be somehow magically keeping the interest of all 24 classes as people hit level 80 and burn out on instancing.  Other events this month are also no doubt somewhat threatening to the size of the playerbase. It'll be interesting to see if a rabbit comes out of the hat in the next few weeks.  If it does, though, I'm betting it isn't an SK rabbit, and won't be any time soon. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />