Constructive Question [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Mathafern

04-28-2008, 09:11 AM

The reason there are so many locked threads is that people are upset, and have the perception they are being ignored- because there has been no substantial dev response, either in the dev roundtable or here. Granted, attacking the devs isn't a good way to get an answer from them- but that's frustration speaking. Here's a few questions for the devs however: Was Despoiling Mist changed as part of a balance effort, or was the change made for some other reason? Why was no note of the change made in the patch notes, as is usually the case? Are there other "balance efforts" in the works for SK? Are they positive or negative?

Gnobrin

04-28-2008, 03:25 PM

Instead of posting questions to be answered, how about specifying the exact issues that you're having (in detail if you can, please), so they can then be broguht to the attention of the dev team? If you demand answers, those questions are RARELY answered. If you have constructive information to an issue that you're witnessing ingame about a class or specific ability and you're able to voice that issue, you may get the attention you desire.~Gnobrin!

Mathafern

04-28-2008, 03:52 PM

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Instead of posting questions to be answered, how about specifying the exact issues that you're having (in detail if you can, please), so they can then be broguht to the attention of the dev team? If you demand answers, those questions are RARELY answered. If you have constructive information to an issue that you're witnessing ingame about a class or specific ability and you're able to voice that issue, you may get the attention you desire.~Gnobrin! </blockquote>Well, the fundamental issue I think is that the SK doesn't have a unique place in the pantheon of fighters. The change to despoiling mist only exacerbated this; I'm wondering what the rhyme and reason behind the change might have been. That's not an unreasonable question I think. IMO each fighter class should have a place. I certainly don't want ANY class nerfed. I like having a guardian in the raid who can take damage and hold aggro. I see SK as off-tank material; snap aggro with survivability. The change to des. mist reduces that survivability and reduces the value of the SK to a raid, which was already questionable since the DPS of SK is not what it once was relative to other fighter classes. Without a boost to DPS, nerfing mit seems out of place. If a dev were to explain the rationale, or give some insight into the thought process (relative roles of fighter classes, for instance) that would be appreciated greatly. I think dozens if not hundreds of posts have expressed this notion, but lack of feedback leaves SKs feeling like redheaded stepchildren. This is why, and I'm sure you understand this, there are so many posts asking, begging, demanding, wheedling for feedback from the actual devs who have a role in shaping these things. Personally, I think it's natural for people to have questions and want answers. And truly many could use a bit of lesson in etiquette as to how to go about that it's true; but to expect people to not expect some, eventual, answer to a multitude of questions is unreasonable. If a conversation were taking place there would not be as much of a "light a fire" attitude at hand.

Tiberuis

04-28-2008, 04:13 PM

<cite>Mathafern@Mistmoore wrote</cite><cite>:</cite> <blockquote>"Well, the fundamental issue I think is that the SK doesn't have a unique place in the pantheon of fighters.""IMO each fighter class should have a place. I certainly don't want ANY class nerfed. I like having a guardian in the raid who can take damage and hold aggro. I see SK as off-tank material; snap aggro with survivability. The change to des. mist reduces that survivability and reduces the value of the SK to a raid, which was already questionable since the DPS of SK is not what it once was relative to other fighter classes."</blockquote>I agree, the Despoiling Mist nerf was not fair, or balanced.I, must say, however, that myself and many other SK's who play this game, believe we do have a unique place in the pantheon of fighters. This is why I would like to see the following changes to enhance our class (as I mentioned in another recent post) :1) Death March. It has become a class defining ability. So make it Raid Wide. 2) Death Touch. Make it an actual Death Touch. Like a touch that actually kills things. Just as advertised. 3) Base Spell Damage. Forget about melee crits and DA's and CA's. That's Guard/Zerker territory. Let's keep our identity as your local hocus pocus Battle Mage. Increase our base spell damage, and re-inforce our ability to out DPS a defense tank via casting spells. This re-inforces the core value of what we are, and will also improve our ability to tank and OT.4) Raid Wide Buff. Add a +INT benefit to our current raid wide buff. Further re-inforce our Battle Mage (caster benefits) identity, right across the raid.I know these are simple improvements, but I would like to see things done that further re-inforce our Battle Mage/Plate Caster identity, and not copy the other plate tanks. I like the positive approach to feedback your thread entails; I am tired of seeing peeps post flames and getting the threads locked or ignored <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Comaagereon

04-28-2008, 04:51 PM

I like the idea of increasing the benefit of the buff. Admittedly my own SK is not quite at the raiding level yet but one of my better friends plays an SK at raid level and I have heard him gripe enough about his usefulness to seriously question whether it is worth leveling my own SK, or whether I should not bother and just stick with my other characters. In my own experience the SK has almost always been relegated to the "other" duty during raids. Back in KOS it was kicking flowers in Lyceum, now it is clicking statues in Venril Sathir's Lair. In all truth though if a raid is "ideally" constructed most seem to prefer a guardian paladin combo and the SK is left out altogether with the reasoning of too many fighters. At least for the short term increasing the benefit of the buff would increase the usefulness of the class to a raid party, perhaps enough to at least guarantee a spot.

rabid.pooh

04-28-2008, 08:02 PM

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mathafern@Mistmoore wrote</cite><cite>:</cite> <blockquote>"Well, the fundamental issue I think is that the SK doesn't have a unique place in the pantheon of fighters.""IMO each fighter class should have a place. I certainly don't want ANY class nerfed. I like having a guardian in the raid who can take damage and hold aggro. I see SK as off-tank material; snap aggro with survivability. The change to des. mist reduces that survivability and reduces the value of the SK to a raid, which was already questionable since the DPS of SK is not what it once was relative to other fighter classes."</blockquote>I agree, the Despoiling Mist nerf was not fair, or balanced.I, must say, however, that myself and many other SK's who play this game, believe we do have a unique place in the pantheon of fighters. This is why I would like to see the following changes to enhance our class (as I mentioned in another recent post) :1) Death March. It has become a class defining ability. So make it Raid Wide. 2) Death Touch. Make it an actual Death Touch. Like a touch that actually kills things. Just as advertised. 3) Base Spell Damage. Forget about melee crits and DA's and CA's. That's Guard/Zerker territory. Let's keep our identity as your local hocus pocus Battle Mage. Increase our base spell damage, and re-inforce our ability to out DPS a defense tank via casting spells. This re-inforces the core value of what we are, and will also improve our ability to tank and OT.4) Raid Wide Buff. Add a +INT benefit to our current raid wide buff. Further re-inforce our Battle Mage (caster benefits) identity, right across the raid.I know these are simple improvements, but I would like to see things done that further re-inforce our Battle Mage/Plate Caster identity, and not copy the other plate tanks. I like the positive approach to feedback your thread entails; I am tired of seeing peeps post flames and getting the threads locked or ignored <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>/HIJACKHey Torran! Long time no see, you're still playing the SK? Thought you woulda rerolled into a brig or something by now :p. Toes has been retired and I'm sporttin the guard now, still an SK at heart tho <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Tiberuis

04-28-2008, 08:20 PM

Hi Toesmash, good to hear from you! It has been a while.OMG, So you gave up on the SK and rolled a Guardian, eh? Can't say I blame you. The Guardian has better defensive spec, better DPS, and better aggro generation, plus a bunch of other abilities that make it better for tanking raids in almost every conceivable way.That does make me sad bro, you were one of the top SK's on the Oasis Server as I recall (if not THE top SK). You stuck it out with the SK class for so long Toes...It just further demonstrates how SOE has left the SK class behind.So what do you think of my suggestions to fix our class?1) Death March. It has become a class defining ability. So make it Raid Wide. 2) Death Touch. Make it an actual Death Touch. Like a touch that actually kills things. Just as advertised. 3) Base Spell Damage. Forget about melee crits and DA's and CA's. That's Guard/Zerker territory. Let's keep our identity as your local hocus pocus Battle Mage. Increase our base spell damage, and re-inforce our ability to out DPS a defense tank via casting spells. This re-inforces the core value of what we are, and will also improve our ability to tank and OT.4) Raid Wide Buff. Add a +INT benefit to our current raid wide buff. Further re-inforce our Battle Mage (caster benefits) identity, right across the raid.I know these are simple improvements, but I would like to see things done that further re-inforce our Battle Mage/Plate Caster identity, and not copy the other plate tanks. Do you think the devs will do anything to bring the SK to balance with the other plate tank classes? Or do you think I should just roll a Guardian like everyone else and get it over with? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Cheers bro,T.

Bowser

04-28-2008, 09:42 PM

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hi Toesmash, good to hear from you! It has been a while.OMG, So you gave up on the SK and rolled a Guardian, eh? Can't say I blame you. The Guardian has better defensive spec, better DPS, and better aggro generation, plus a bunch of other abilities that make it better for tanking raids in almost every conceivable way.That does make me sad bro, you were one of the top SK's on the Oasis Server as I recall (if not THE top SK). You stuck it out with the SK class for so long Toes...It just further demonstrates how SOE has left the SK class behind.So what do you think of my suggestions to fix our class?1) Death March. It has become a class defining ability. So make it Raid Wide. 2) Death Touch. Make it an actual Death Touch. Like a touch that actually kills things. Just as advertised. 3) Base Spell Damage. Forget about melee crits and DA's and CA's. That's Guard/Zerker territory. Let's keep our identity as your local hocus pocus Battle Mage. Increase our base spell damage, and re-inforce our ability to out DPS a defense tank via casting spells. This re-inforces the core value of what we are, and will also improve our ability to tank and OT.4) Raid Wide Buff. Add a +INT benefit to our current raid wide buff. Further re-inforce our Battle Mage (caster benefits) identity, right across the raid.I know these are simple improvements, but I would like to see things done that further re-inforce our Battle Mage/Plate Caster identity, and not copy the other plate tanks. Do you think the devs will do anything to bring the SK to balance with the other plate tank classes? Or do you think I should just roll a Guardian like everyone else and get it over with? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />">Cheers bro,T.</blockquote>I agree with your suggestions for improvement. I would also like to add:2) Death Touch - Significantly increase the amount of damage done, and make it unresistable (PvE only).5) Reaver - Remove the health cost.6) Offensive Stance - Add a Strength bonus. We did lose a Strength bonus when the STR/STA buff was changed to Spell DMG/STA.7) Mana Sieve - Increase the amount of mana gained.8) Grave Sacrament - Change to a permanant pet and allow the player to choose the type of pet. (Skeleton, Zombie, Demon, Etc.)

Jevius

04-28-2008, 10:38 PM

Ill toss some ideas Ive had into the ring, what could it hurt at this point, right?10?) Innoruuk's Caress and its previous forms, imo, are a little underwhelming. Maybe increase the amount of threat / damage it does, or maybe change it so that when we get hit, we take a little bit of threat from everyone in the party.11?) Def stance giving us AGI instead of WIS. I think it would serve us better than wisdom with how hard mobs hit us, how much effort we put into getting worthwhile avoidance and how little wis seems to help us.12?) Personally, I would enjoy that our primary single target taunts, the one with threat and disease damage over time, and the shield slam line if they were just instant threat / damage instead of doing everything over time. Insinuate at Master II increases threat by 1147 - 1402, and additionally by 76-93 every 3 seconds thereafter, and 42 damage and 146 - 178 damage every 3 seconds.. Thats 1375 - 1681 threat and 480 - 576 damage instantly. Hateful Slam at Master I with 5 AA points in it is 1156 threat instantly and 462 threat every 3 seconds thereafter. That would be 3004 threat instantly.While, it wouldnt increase the amount of threat we generate, I think it would be convenient with how well we tank, as I find most dps I play with tend to enjoy starting off fights with as many big numbers as possible. A little personal preference, I suppose.This is just my 2 cents, not sure if its really worth anything~

Soefje

04-29-2008, 12:36 AM

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote> If you demand answers, those questions are RARELY answered. ~Gnobrin! </blockquote>You know this would have a lot more weight if other devs weren't posting all the time (check out the tradeskill boards). It is real nice how questions on that board get a response. Granted, not all of them, but enough to know that a dev is actually assigned to that area.I guess what you really mean to say is that the devs don't know how to answer right now, so we will ignore you until we do. Or we really don't have anyone working on SK right now, b/c we have too many other things that are broken and need fixing.I think even stating that we are aware of the issue, but not sure how to fixed it without dramatically changing the balance, would statisfy a large number of us.

Bowser

04-29-2008, 04:26 AM

While it may not be a big issue, here is another thing I noticed:9) Shadowknight Achievements: Shriek of Terror - Currently there are two separate Shadowknight achievements that improve the same spell. I would suggest merging the two Shriek achievements into a single achievement and then creating a new achievement to fill the void. Perhaps an improvement to the Painful Swing, Condemning Smite, or Kick spell lines would be an appropriate replacement.

Phank

04-29-2008, 11:41 AM

The SK community has literally given the Devs dozens of great ideas to improve the class. Not overpower the class mind you. We are not asking to be Rangers or Assasins on the parse. We are simply asking for a spot on raids. Raid-wide DM would do that for starters. Also it is plainly evident that the spell damage of Crusaders is not in line with that of other classes. Because we divide our damage among so many stats we are effectively gimped when it comes to meeting expectations.All things being equal (armor, buffs, mythicals), in hand when comparable fighters beat the SK on the parse by 2000 or more, something is definitely wrong. Watching the Berserker parse 6k in Shard of Hate (a T4 zone?) while the SK is parsing under 3k -- shows that a revamp is desperately needed before players simply give up on the class or worse off, the game.

Tiberuis

04-29-2008, 12:34 PM

Hi All,Some great ideas and feedback on this thread, thanks for asking the questions Mathafern.Please fell free to support DarkC's thread, titled "What Do Raiding SK's Need," and post up your specific SK raiding issues and mechanics there as well. I think it is important to separate the group MT mechanics and raiding mechanics, for the benefit of the mods and devs, at this point.Keep up the grreat feedback SK's!

rabid.pooh

04-29-2008, 04:27 PM

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hi Toesmash, good to hear from you! It has been a while.OMG, So you gave up on the SK and rolled a Guardian, eh? Can't say I blame you. The Guardian has better defensive spec, better DPS, and better aggro generation, plus a bunch of other abilities that make it better for tanking raids in almost every conceivable way.That does make me sad bro, you were one of the top SK's on the Oasis Server as I recall (if not THE top SK). You stuck it out with the SK class for so long Toes...It just further demonstrates how SOE has left the SK class behind.So what do you think of my suggestions to fix our class?1) Death March. It has become a class defining ability. So make it Raid Wide. 2) Death Touch. Make it an actual Death Touch. Like a touch that actually kills things. Just as advertised. 3) Base Spell Damage. Forget about melee crits and DA's and CA's. That's Guard/Zerker territory. Let's keep our identity as your local hocus pocus Battle Mage. Increase our base spell damage, and re-inforce our ability to out DPS a defense tank via casting spells. This re-inforces the core value of what we are, and will also improve our ability to tank and OT.4) Raid Wide Buff. Add a +INT benefit to our current raid wide buff. Further re-inforce our Battle Mage (caster benefits) identity, right across the raid.I know these are simple improvements, but I would like to see things done that further re-inforce our Battle Mage/Plate Caster identity, and not copy the other plate tanks. Do you think the devs will do anything to bring the SK to balance with the other plate tank classes? Or do you think I should just roll a Guardian like everyone else and get it over with? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />Cheers bro,T.</blockquote>Uhm, I don't think this list will solve the SK issues. Most of the suggestion I read on the boards are good, but really I find they are band aids on the real issue, and that issue is "The game mechanic for the SK is broken". I'll start a seperate thread on this and present my arguement.Death march if you made it raid wide, it would trivialize some raid content, because of the fear/stiffle/stun immunity, a really good example that comes to mind is the Overking dealing with the adds. I think it would be awesome but I can see the devs sitting there thinking this may be overpowering for a raid.Adding int to the raid wide buff is a good idea, the spell damage addition worked (kinda) in t7, but now with spell damage items being everywhere most mages are sitting around the cap. Maybe spell crit would be better to add and remove the spell damage component, same with the pallies switch it over to heal crit.Death Touch needs a jump, it's not even acting as a rescue anymore. As far as rerolling to another tank class, it really depends if your guild needs that tank class. It really doesn't matter what tank class you are, if a guild has it's MT/OT/OST tanks, they really don't need a forth tank in the lineup no matter what the class and that's why so many tanks are having problems. You can do what I did tho and roll a zerker grind him up and when he's ready do the switch <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.Lastly I don't think the devs will 'fix' the class, merely throw out a little nugget to our unwashed masses that will seem to placate us for some time as they have done in the past. Really the issue with SKs is a foundation problem and when the foundation is rotten the house is gonna collapse, more so as you continue to add on to it (and this why the lower level SKs really won't see these problems until they hit the RoK content).