Constructive comments (I Hope) on planned LU 45 changes [Archive]

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Jeepned2

04-18-2008, 04:03 PM

Since out other post is so out of wack, I wanted to start a new one that would be easy for Aeralik to read and get input back. What I'm asking for is for each person to "quote" this page, remove this part of it and then respond to each spell change. What I would prefer not to see is comments about other posts, other classes or anything that takes away from being a good product to Aeralik. Simply add you comments at the end of each spell change description. I will start reporting to the moderator anyone that tries to drag this post off subject, sorry folks, has to be done if we want a decent product to Aeralik.__________________________________________________ ____________________________________ Possession - You guys dislike it and I think I dislike it even more. So this spell is getting a big change. Instead of temporarily controlling a creature, it will keep with the possession theme by creating an essence of the creature that is a controllable pet. It basically turns into an always on pseudo charm pet. This pet won't be able to zone or anything but you can at least use it in dungeons with groups or raids. Reactives - These will be more oriented to players triggering them rather than having to rely on the npcs to trigger them. In addition, Cataclysmic mind will get an upgrade and be similar to the illusionist reactive except that it triggers off damaging spells hitting the mob.Dehate Line - If the target of the spell gets aggro they will trigger a hate position loss instead of damage which should be more in line with the use of the spell.Volatile Magic - This will change for all enchanters. The spell does not play well since I see many of the enchanters just spamming sprint to stay under 30% power. That really wasn't the intention of the skill at all. Instead it will be a reduced amount that applies regardless of your current power amount.Power drains - To compensate some for the reduction to Volatile Magic, both enchanter subclasses will be getting their power drains turned into damage. In their current state these are more useful for their control effects rather than the actual power drains. After the changes the spells should be a bit more useful.Mana Ward - This will change to be a powerful ward based on the amount of mana the coercer has remaining. It won't be as powerful as soul ward but it will be similar and thus a lot more useful.Coercive healing - I haven't decided on exact specifics of this but it will see some changes to bring it more in line with illusionist aa lines.Tashania - This will change to be extremely hard to resist and apply to all magical damage types. This should make it something you use on pull to help land debuffs with the new raid resists.

Jeepned2

04-18-2008, 04:30 PM

<blockquote>Possession - You guys dislike it and I think I dislike it even more. So this spell is getting a big change. Instead of temporarily controlling a creature, it will keep with the possession theme by creating an essence of the creature that is a controllable pet. It basically turns into an always on pseudo charm pet. This pet won't be able to zone or anything but you can at least use it in dungeons with groups or raids. Any change to this spell is welcome. In current state never used. Reactives - These will be more oriented to players triggering them rather than having to rely on the npcs to trigger them. In addition, Cataclysmic mind will get an upgrade and be similar to the illusionist reactive except that it triggers off damaging spells hitting the mob. This is probably one of the biggest changes we have asked for and got. Will be interested in comments from those on the Test server who get to use these.Dehate Line - If the target of the spell gets aggro they will trigger a hate position loss instead of damage which should be more in line with the use of the spell. I am guessing that this will take one concentration slot per person we can it on still. I'm stll trying to decide whether I like it this way or as is. Many like the straight up 25% dehate and leave pulling aggro up to the target to manage thier aggro. Will I have to recast on the target once this triggers? Will it only trigger once? Volatile Magic - This will change for all enchanters. The spell does not play well since I see many of the enchanters just spamming sprint to stay under 30% power. That really wasn't the intention of the skill at all. Instead it will be a reduced amount that applies regardless of your current power amount. For me this is a huge change. Two huge items destroy my ability to use VM during a fight. 1. My own epic if I cast mana flow. The 60% mana return immediately makes me lose my VM for awhile until I get my power down again. This also makes me really hesitate casting Mana Flow at all if I can help it. 2. The Mystic Epic. The Mystic Epic can be used to regen everyone's mana back to 100% in just seconds (in group). So I have to keep reminding him to not use unless I tell you to, which doesn't go over very well.Power drains - To compensate some for the reduction to Volatile Magic, both enchanter subclasses will be getting their power drains turned into damage. In their current state these are more useful for their control effects rather than the actual power drains. After the changes the spells should be a bit more useful. For me this is a good deal, but understand the concerns of the PVP players. I'll trade DPS for mana drain anyday with the current mechanics of mobs not often using power.Mana Ward - This will change to be a powerful ward based on the amount of mana the coercer has remaining. It won't be as powerful as soul ward but it will be similar and thus a lot more useful. This will cause me to have to respec my aa's so I can get this. Love this change.Coercive healing - I haven't decided on exact specifics of this but it will see some changes to bring it more in line with illusionist aa lines. I ask that this not be changed to much, it might damage my already fragile friendship with our defiler <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Tashania - This will change to be extremely hard to resist and apply to all magical damage types. This should make it something you use on pull to help land debuffs with the new raid resists. This one too is going to be really interesting when it hits test. With the changes to Mana Ward, Coercive Healing and Tashania, will have to give serious thought on aa respect. The guild like snap thought, but I find I'm using it less and less as the MT gets better equiped. Overall this is a long list of some potential GREAT changes. Again, can't wait to see the write ups from the Test server folks.</blockquote>

Alfgand

04-18-2008, 04:48 PM

<cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite> <blockquote>Possession - You guys dislike it and I think I dislike it even more. So this spell is getting a big change. Instead of temporarily controlling a creature, it will keep with the possession theme by creating an essence of the creature that is a controllable pet. It basically turns into an always on pseudo charm pet. This pet won't be able to zone or anything but you can at least use it in dungeons with groups or raids. Sounds good to me. Is this making a copy of the mob with its own abilites, lowered of course to match where it needs to be or is it actually taking the mob itself and possessing it and lowering its abilities like charm does? Are you just taking the Illusionist Personae spell and changing it so the pet looks like the target mob? I would think that would be the easiest way to do and that would I assume save on coding time. (not that I know anything about coding) Note: I am not suggesting this, just wondering.Reactives - These will be more oriented to players triggering them rather than having to rely on the npcs to trigger them. In addition, Cataclysmic mind will get an upgrade and be similar to the illusionist reactive except that it triggers off damaging spells hitting the mob.Also sounds great to me.Dehate Line - If the target of the spell gets aggro they will trigger a hate position loss instead of damage which should be more in line with the use of the spell. Cool, I hope it triggers in time to save high agro cloth types. lolVolatile Magic - This will change for all enchanters. The spell does not play well since I see many of the enchanters just spamming sprint to stay under 30% power. That really wasn't the intention of the skill at all. Instead it will be a reduced amount that applies regardless of your current power amount.Cool Power drains - To compensate some for the reduction to Volatile Magic, both enchanter subclasses will be getting their power drains turned into damage. In their current state these are more useful for their control effects rather than the actual power drains. After the changes the spells should be a bit more useful.Cool a stun that proc's damage when it runs out. Very nice.Mana Ward - This will change to be a powerful ward based on the amount of mana the coercer has remaining. It won't be as powerful as soul ward but it will be similar and thus a lot more useful.Sounds niceCoercive healing - I haven't decided on exact specifics of this but it will see some changes to bring it more in line with illusionist aa lines.Dont ruin this one, just make it better. Boosting heals is a good thing. Make it work better on non warding healers.Tashania - This will change to be extremely hard to resist and apply to all magical damage types. This should make it something you use on pull to help land debuffs with the new raid resists.CoolPuppetmaster: In beta a bunch of us screamed our heads off about the original design of this spell and you listened. Thanks ! (It was going to be another possession type spell for those who do not know)The implemented version has pretty low DPS and the mobs need to be allot bigger. You could use the "possession" color effect on them if you had to so as not to confuse players into thinking they were adds. No one can even seen them now they are so small. lolThoughtstones: Instead of removing allow us to sell them to vendors for 1 gp each. (Yes, I am joking)(If you don't think I am joking and would actually do that, thats really cool.) <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> (Yes, still joking)Anyhow great thanks for removing them!</blockquote>

Rijacki

04-18-2008, 06:12 PM

<cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>Again, can't wait to see the write ups from the Test server folks.</blockquote></blockquote>You can be one of those Test server folks. There are two Test servers, one which has copies and one which doesn't. Sure, you would find it hard to get to level 80 with all your current gear if you had to start at level 1 and work your way up. BUT, you can /testcopy to create a clone of your 80 with gear for the former Test PvP server. Having the changes tried out by a variety of people (like the rangers did) would give a wider base of information for the devs for tweaks and all.

XFnarX

04-26-2008, 12:20 PM

Possession - You guys dislike it and I think I dislike it even more. So this spell is getting a big change. Instead of temporarily controlling a creature, it will keep with the possession theme by creating an essence of the creature that is a controllable pet. It basically turns into an always on pseudo charm pet. This pet won't be able to zone or anything but you can at least use it in dungeons with groups or raids. - Great idea, however that sounds like "Puppet Master" more than "Possession", but yes I like the idea to make it raid able!Reactives - These will be more oriented to players triggering them rather than having to rely on the npcs to trigger them. In addition, Cataclysmic mind will get an upgrade and be similar to the illusionist reactive except that it triggers off damaging spells hitting the mob. - Awesome... =)Dehate Line - If the target of the spell gets aggro they will trigger a hate position loss instead of damage which should be more in line with the use of the spell. - Very good idea, however would we have to recast the spell on them once the trigger goes off or is there a refresh timer on it. Like "Can not trigger more than once every 30sec"? Either way it's a good idea.Volatile Magic - This will change for all enchanters. The spell does not play well since I see many of the enchanters just spamming sprint to stay under 30% power. That really wasn't the intention of the skill at all. Instead it will be a reduced amount that applies regardless of your current power amount. - BRILLIANT! This will make our huge self power feed useful off our epics! VERY YES! (I would enjoy never having power issues EVER.)Power drains - To compensate some for the reduction to Volatile Magic, both enchanter subclasses will be getting their power drains turned into damage. In their current state these are more useful for their control effects rather than the actual power drains. After the changes the spells should be a bit more useful. - Again good idea, but this might be to much. With all the other amazing damage suggestions this may put us over the top... not that I'm complaining, but it might make us a wee bit over powered. I think it might be a better idea to make power draining useful on some mobs... instead of changing the mobs and making it "useless". *cough* like maidens *cough*Mana Ward - This will change to be a powerful ward based on the amount of mana the coercer has remaining. It won't be as powerful as soul ward but it will be similar and thus a lot more useful. - So you are making the bottem line ability actually useful. hehe about time. =pCoercive healing - I haven't decided on exact specifics of this but it will see some changes to bring it more in line with illusionist aa lines. - Pretty powerful as is on Shamans... Other two effect need work tho. Making it group wide with our epic or adding something to it with the epic might make more sense there.Tashania - This will change to be extremely hard to resist and apply to all magical damage types. This should make it something you use on pull to help land debuffs with the new raid resists. - Sweet Jesus and pancakes, great idea! This alone will make the Coercer class with Tash WAY more wanted on raids. Good call here!With all these changes in mind, just by making these chances you would be fixing our epic at the same time. (With out actually changing the epic it self.) I hope all of these effects go through in some way or another. I am just glad that the most underplayed and understood class in game is finally getting some attention, regardless of how it turns out.I suggest to -ALL- Coercer to make a /testcopy now and make sure to /feedback the changes!**Edit was font color only... dark blue is bad mmK**

Illine

04-27-2008, 12:37 PM

<cite>XFnarX wrote:</cite><blockquote>Possession - You guys dislike it and I think I dislike it even more. So this spell is getting a big change. Instead of temporarily controlling a creature, it will keep with the possession theme by creating an essence of the creature that is a controllable pet. It basically turns into an always on pseudo charm pet. This pet won't be able to zone or anything but you can at least use it in dungeons with groups or raids. - Great idea, however that sounds like "Puppet Master" more than "Possession", but yes I like the idea to make it raid able!Reactives - These will be more oriented to players triggering them rather than having to rely on the npcs to trigger them. In addition, Cataclysmic mind will get an upgrade and be similar to the illusionist reactive except that it triggers off damaging spells hitting the mob. - Awesome... =)I like it too that wayDehate Line - If the target of the spell gets aggro they will trigger a hate position loss instead of damage which should be more in line with the use of the spell. - Very good idea, however would we have to recast the spell on them once the trigger goes off or is there a refresh timer on it. Like "Can not trigger more than once every 30sec"? Either way it's a good idea.I though would be a % trigger, like on any hostile spell/benefic spell/CA ... 30% of triggering?Volatile Magic - This will change for all enchanters. The spell does not play well since I see many of the enchanters just spamming sprint to stay under 30% power. That really wasn't the intention of the skill at all. Instead it will be a reduced amount that applies regardless of your current power amount. - BRILLIANT! This will make our huge self power feed useful off our epics! VERY YES! (I would enjoy never having power issues EVER.)At least now we'll get our primary role back <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Power drains - To compensate some for the reduction to Volatile Magic, both enchanter subclasses will be getting their power drains turned into damage. In their current state these are more useful for their control effects rather than the actual power drains. After the changes the spells should be a bit more useful. - Again good idea, but this might be to much. With all the other amazing damage suggestions this may put us over the top... not that I'm complaining, but it might make us a wee bit over powered. I think it might be a better idea to make power draining useful on some mobs... instead of changing the mobs and making it "useless". *cough* like maidens *cough*Mana Ward - This will change to be a powerful ward based on the amount of mana the coercer has remaining. It won't be as powerful as soul ward but it will be similar and thus a lot more useful. - So you are making the bottem line ability actually useful. hehe about time. =pagree, a bit more usefullCoercive healing - I haven't decided on exact specifics of this but it will see some changes to bring it more in line with illusionist aa lines. - Pretty powerful as is on Shamans... Other two effect need work tho. Making it group wide with our epic or adding something to it with the epic might make more sense there.a way would be to increase all heals of 15%. not just wards, but also the three direct heals (small solo, big solo and group)Tashania - This will change to be extremely hard to resist and apply to all magical damage types. This should make it something you use on pull to help land debuffs with the new raid resists. - Sweet Jesus and pancakes, great idea! This alone will make the Coercer class with Tash WAY more wanted on raids. Good call here!With all these changes in mind, just by making these chances you would be fixing our epic at the same time. (With out actually changing the epic it self.) I hope all of these effects go through in some way or another. I am just glad that the most underplayed and understood class in game is finally getting some attention, regardless of how it turns out.I suggest to -ALL- Coercer to make a /testcopy now and make sure to /feedback the changes!**Edit was font color only... dark blue is bad mmK**</blockquote>

nj6030

04-28-2008, 02:49 AM

Maybe I am not understanding the reactive changes. The current reactives proc when the target does damage/cast a spell ect... The new change will make it proc only if other players do damage/cast a spell ect... on target? If so that would seem to make it much harder to pvp solo since the targets are more then likely going to do more damage to me then I could do to them to even get the reactives to proc. Now casting spells are not a probalem for me and that reactive would proc but doing melee damage might. I if i have this all wrong PLZZZZ help me get the right idea about this. The more info the better at pvp I will become. [

O-CuKChainz

04-28-2008, 12:26 PM

<cite></cite><blockquote>Possession - You guys dislike it and I think I dislike it even more. So this spell is getting a big change. Instead of temporarily controlling a creature, it will keep with the possession theme by creating an essence of the creature that is a controllable pet. It basically turns into an always on pseudo charm pet. This pet won't be able to zone or anything but you can at least use it in dungeons with groups or raids. Sounds good but opens one question - Will this effect coercers Charm in any way? Either ways i'm looking forward to testing it out to see.Reactives - These will be more oriented to players triggering them rather than having to rely on the npcs to trigger them. In addition, Cataclysmic mind will get an upgrade and be similar to the illusionist reactive except that it triggers off damaging spells hitting the mob.About time this was changed. With Parry, Avoid and Reposit so good now on a lot of tank class's its good to see the proc's change from mob to players. Another one i'm looking forward to seeing in test.Dehate Line - If the target of the spell gets aggro they will trigger a hate position loss instead of damage which should be more in line with the use of the spell.I'm liking this one tooVolatile Magic - This will change for all enchanters. The spell does not play well since I see many of the enchanters just spamming sprint to stay under 30% power. That really wasn't the intention of the skill at all. Instead it will be a reduced amount that applies regardless of your current power amount.This is something i tried once but thought was a pain to keep mana below 30% and so never really stuck with it. Good news though for those who do use the spell.Power drains - To compensate some for the reduction to Volatile Magic, both enchanter subclasses will be getting their power drains turned into damage. In their current state these are more useful for their control effects rather than the actual power drains. After the changes the spells should be a bit more useful.More dmg <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /> HappyMana Ward - This will change to be a powerful ward based on the amount of mana the coercer has remaining. It won't be as powerful as soul ward but it will be similar and thus a lot more useful.Sounds good.Coercive healing - I haven't decided on exact specifics of this but it will see some changes to bring it more in line with illusionist aa lines.Personally i'd prefer this as it is. About the only change i would like to see is maybe set it as a group buff. Even if it ment using a con to have it enabled. Tashania - This will change to be extremely hard to resist and apply to all magical damage types. This should make it something you use on pull to help land debuffs with the new raid resists.Great. Something else useful to a grp or raid.The only thing i wander now is with the Thoughtstones being removed what will happen to Third Eye? will this remain or be worked i nto Soothing?</blockquote>

XFnarX

04-28-2008, 03:05 PM

<cite>nj6030 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Maybe I am not understanding the reactive changes. The current reactives proc when the target does damage/cast a spell ect... The new change will make it proc only if other players do damage/cast a spell ect... on target? If so that would seem to make it much harder to pvp solo since the targets are more then likely going to do more damage to me then I could do to them to even get the reactives to proc. Now casting spells are not a probalem for me and that reactive would proc but doing melee damage might. I if i have this all wrong PLZZZZ help me get the right idea about this. The more info the better at pvp I will become. </blockquote>Instead of "when the mob does something" it will be more like the Illu and Warlock spell where "If a PLAYER does something". Aka if the scout you cast the buff on lands a hit or if the mage (or yourself) that you put the casting buff on lands a spell it does X damage. Better?

Encantador

04-29-2008, 03:50 PM

No FNAR, the way it reads now, Mj6030 is right. The reactive goes on the mob and triggers when a player does damage (of the right sort) to the mob. It is not a buff.For PvE this is fine ... mezz, apply reactives, stun, do damage and get extra proc damage, mezz again, rinse and repeat.For PvP it is not so good because of the mezz/stun immunities. It may work out if the damage on a proc is significant enough. But somehow I don't see the Dev's allowing a coercer to mezz an opponent and then kill them while they are stunned.

Rominian

04-29-2008, 04:58 PM

Hey all, I need some info about the /testcopy command. I did it on my character, and I understand it takes about 24 hours to get it done, so Im waiting on that, what I need to know is exactly how do I get to this PVP Test server or whatever it is? I have a character created on the normal test server (the one you get to by clicking on the little button on the patch window) but Im not sure if that will work or if I need to specifically log into this other server. Step by step instructions would be very helpful, so if anyone knows please post here, thanks

Rijacki

04-29-2008, 05:25 PM

<cite>Rominian wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey all, I need some info about the /testcopy command. I did it on my character, and I understand it takes about 24 hours to get it done, so Im waiting on that, what I need to know is exactly how do I get to this PVP Test server or whatever it is? I have a character created on the normal test server (the one you get to by clicking on the little button on the patch window) but Im not sure if that will work or if I need to specifically log into this other server. Step by step instructions would be very helpful, so if anyone knows please post here, thanks</blockquote>Yes you need to select the other test server to log in to it. You may need to create a character on the Test Copy server in order to see the one you copied (creating one forces the character select to refresh).You can start the Test patcher without going through the Live one. Find your EQ2 install directory (c:program filessonyeverquestII, I think). Find the Test directory inside that directory. Find the RED icon .exe (can't remember what it's called, I'm at work *laugh*) and double click on it.

XFnarX

04-29-2008, 05:33 PM

<cite>Encantador wrote:</cite><blockquote>No FNAR, the way it reads now, Mj6030 is right. The reactive goes on the mob and triggers when a player does damage (of the right sort) to the mob. It is not a buff.For PvE this is fine ... mezz, apply reactives, stun, do damage and get extra proc damage, mezz again, rinse and repeat.For PvP it is not so good because of the mezz/stun immunities. It may work out if the damage on a proc is significant enough. But somehow I don't see the Dev's allowing a coercer to mezz an opponent and then kill them while they are stunned.</blockquote>Um.... that's what I said. It's currently listed as, and I will quote again from my original post, "when the mob does something". This is also how Hostage / SpellCurse / CataMaind "currently" work, but they are changing it to something different. It's the same for PvE and PvP. They count currently as debuffs on a target and the target has to react (quote "REACTIVES&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> in order for the debuff to do damage.The Illu and Warlock ones -ARE- buffs you put on players, so when PLAYERS do something to the mob, it does more damage for YOU. However the Illu one is melee based no spell based.As for your final statement, learn about these other class buffs and it will make more sense. It will probably be a buff that we can cast on anyone BUT ourselves. Which would fix the issue you are presenting.Please try to keep this thread on topic, I rather not see it get out of hand like the last one.

Lord Montague

04-29-2008, 06:57 PM

<cite>XFnarX wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Illu and Warlock ones -ARE- buffs you put on players, so when PLAYERS do something to the mob, it does more damage for YOU. However the Illu one is melee based no spell based.</blockquote>Umm, if you're referring to the warlock's Aura line, which since that's the only reactive spell I can think of (as I do have a warlock myself), that one is not a buff you cast on a player but a debuff on the mob that triggers as spells land on said mob. So the mechanics are not the same.

CtrlF

04-29-2008, 07:28 PM

I'll try to give some opinions as a PvP Coercer without derailing the topic:<blockquote>Possession - You guys dislike it and I think I dislike it even more. So this spell is getting a big change. Instead of temporarily controlling a creature, it will keep with the possession theme by creating an essence of the creature that is a controllable pet. It basically turns into an always on pseudo charm pet. This pet won't be able to zone or anything but you can at least use it in dungeons with groups or raids. This probably won't affect me very much, unless it has less concentration cost than a normal charm. I wouldn't be caught without a charmed mob in the wild.Reactives - These will be more oriented to players triggering them rather than having to rely on the npcs to trigger them. In addition, Cataclysmic mind will get an upgrade and be similar to the illusionist reactive except that it triggers off damaging spells hitting the mob. As long as these spells still affect targets for the same amount in PvP as they do now, I don't see this as a problem. Reactives are the primary method of doing damage in PvP for me.Dehate Line - If the target of the spell gets aggro they will trigger a hate position loss instead of damage which should be more in line with the use of the spell. Loss of target in PvP would be nice for thisVolatile Magic - This will change for all enchanters. The spell does not play well since I see many of the enchanters just spamming sprint to stay under 30% power. That really wasn't the intention of the skill at all. Instead it will be a reduced amount that applies regardless of your current power amount. This seems like a great change for all coercers, regardless of server type.Power drains - To compensate some for the reduction to Volatile Magic, both enchanter subclasses will be getting their power drains turned into damage. In their current state these are more useful for their control effects rather than the actual power drains. After the changes the spells should be a bit more useful. Draining power in PvP is a pretty important thing. I won't say it's a primary weapon, but there's no fight I don't use it.Mana Ward - This will change to be a powerful ward based on the amount of mana the coercer has remaining. It won't be as powerful as soul ward but it will be similar and thus a lot more useful. As I play a Defiler as well, please don't make this generate quite as much hate as Soul Ward does. Remember that we aren't wearing chain. No real PvP value, but a great change.Coercive healing - I haven't decided on exact specifics of this but it will see some changes to bring it more in line with illusionist aa lines. Very nice change for group/raid coercersTashania - This will change to be extremely hard to resist and apply to all magical damage types. This should make it something you use on pull to help land debuffs with the new raid resists. This change will probably get me to respec. I love Tashania, but with resists as crazy as they are I no longer have it.</blockquote> I won't say that my opinions are in line with other PvP coercers (since we don't have a tight-knit community on Nagafen), but overall I'm really looking forward to these changes.