mage upgrades

[Dracot]

<p>Ok we're seeing some decent mage class upgrades finally.  One question though.  What is the reasoning behind after all the threads about necromancer's in pvp do we see we are only getting FREE Anguish components?  Do you people even read the threads in there or just skim through and find the ranger cries since you only have them playing 80%+ of the Q population on the pvp servers?  Right now you can count on 2 hands how many active pvp necro's are on venekor and its been posted with proof and logs over and over, yet nothing is done.  Out of those 10 er maybe 15, you have 1 or 2 claiming they are good, yet the KVD ratios of all necros is about the same in t8.  We are not asking for OP abilities, anmd many suggestions have been made even by the other classes to help a bit. You give us fear, you give everyone immunity to fear pots, also items that proc fear immunity.  You give us a stun, it lasts a whopping 2 seconds if not at all, seems it breaks instantly and the opponent keeps coming.  You give us root, Ive seen it land, yet the player keeps coming, or if it does a hold its for .5 seconds then all of our CC abilities are immune.  Pets are broken in 2 ways.  #1 they nstill don't keep up and if you run and roll camera to look behind you, the pet completely stops moving.  #2 the taunts on the scout and tank pet lasts for 2 seconds, and even at 100% is resistable still?    Lifeburn, nice spell if you only aim to do 60% dmg which takes 10 seconds to occur, meanwhile a scout kills us in under 1 second. </p><p>Now I see these threads aeralik is posting about changes to classes and one for necro.  OMG i can REZ someone now without use of the gem i get from casting my debuff?  Or last update, my invis won't break when i zone?  What gives?</p>

[Freliant]

Some classes need help in PvE first. For example, LU45 is dedicated to the coercers, and they are finally getting the love they deserved. Necro PvP is low in the priority rung atm. Just chill until the actual needed changes are done, then the other characters that are having problems in one facet, and not overall gameplay can be addressed.

[Fatuus]

<cite>Dracot72 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok we're seeing some decent mage class upgrades finally.  One question though.  What is the reasoning behind after all the threads about necromancer's in pvp do we see we are only getting FREE Anguish components?  Do you people even read the threads in there or just skim through and find the ranger cries since you only have them playing 80%+ of the Q population on the pvp servers?  Right now you can count on 2 hands how many active pvp necro's are on venekor and its been posted with proof and logs over and over, yet nothing is done.  Out of those 10 er maybe 15, you have 1 or 2 claiming they are good, yet the KVD ratios of all necros is about the same in t8.  We are not asking for OP abilities, anmd many suggestions have been made even by the other classes to help a bit. You give us fear, you give everyone immunity to fear pots, also items that proc fear immunity.  You give us a stun, it lasts a whopping 2 seconds if not at all, seems it breaks instantly and the opponent keeps coming.  You give us root, Ive seen it land, yet the player keeps coming, or if it does a hold its for .5 seconds then all of our CC abilities are immune.  Pets are broken in 2 ways.  #1 they nstill don't keep up and if you run and roll camera to look behind you, the pet completely stops moving.  #2 the taunts on the scout and tank pet lasts for 2 seconds, and even at 100% is resistable still?    Lifeburn, nice spell if you only aim to do 60% dmg which takes 10 seconds to occur, meanwhile a scout kills us in under 1 second. </p><p>Now I see these threads aeralik is posting about changes to classes and one for necro.  OMG i can REZ someone now without use of the gem i get from casting my debuff?  Or last update, my invis won't break when i zone?  What gives?</p></blockquote>Its talk like this that really angers me about the EQ2 player base. <p>You are an extremely foolish player. There are more necromancers on the Najena server alone 30+ then on all the PVP servers combined. PVP is what's destroying this game. Its due to PVP issues that the coercers haven't been properly "fixed" for a long time. There is so many bugs and imbalance that has been introduced in this game THANKS to PVP.</p><p>You see people like yourself SCREAM for help in PVP when I wish the devs would stop wasting their time addressing an issue that impacts 2260 total possible toons (thats all the 30+ necromancers on PVP servers) and address issues for the other 40040 necromancers that play in the game on non PVP servers. PVP necromancers amount to about 5% of the total player population...so why should SOE take their time to "balance" you better in PVP...all that does is screw everyone else in PVE.</p><p>Now if you want to include all necromancers in this discussion (not just semi developed ones) these are the total stats for characters. Just an FYI there are 153300 Necromancers on Non-PVP servers (lvl 0 to 80) and 14160 on PVP servers. Just to further prove how unimportant PVP really is there are 3024000 toons on PVE servers, and only 278280 on PVP. PVP total makes up about 8% of the total player base.</p><p>Get a grip and get over it.</p>

[Vilesummon]

That 8% of the player base may, in fact, also have toons on the PVE servers. I, for one, have a toon left on Guk just to see some friends occasionally. Others have said they can't bring themselves to delete toons that they put that much work into. The numbers you place on the board are impressive, but overall, how many are active toons? Another question would be, what business in their right mind would neglect 8% of their clients?You make the statement that PVP is the reason why coercers haven't gotten love, but you offer no rationale as to where your fact comes from. Using your own logic, would SOE actually allow such a minute portion of their clients dictate all movements. If that were the case, maybe so many pvp players wouldn't be abandoning the game when AoC comes out, although some have just had enough and given in to the idea that SOE doesn't care to fix prevalent problems.Your comment again, about pvp destroying the game is founded on what? I would have been done with this game back after the KoS release if it weren't for the twist that pvp offered. Do you remember the brilliance of releasing an expansion AND combining servers at the same time. The lag was fantastic, enough to drive a lot of people nuts.Here is a thought, perhaps SOE is what is wrong with the game here. As for your other comments about pvp ruining the game, how come there are 2 servers that hit the occasion "heavy" load...one is AB and the other....oh yeah, that PVP server, Nagafen. Guess all those silly people don't realize they are destroying the game. Maybe next time around SOE will actually incorporate the pvp structure into the game the next time they design it, say for EQ3 because pvp doesn't scare everyone. Judging from the INSANE response that AoC is getting, it would seem that more people embrace the idea, especially with the idea of battlegrounds.Maybe you should not call someone foolish for expressing an opinion, but instead should take his input and see if there is a way to appease all players, not just judgmental people like yourself. More power to the PVP players if that 8% is why coercers have suffered so long. IF that small of a minority can influence things, then they are indeed a powerful 8%. As you said, get a grip and get over yourself; not everyone is impressed by an endless regurgitation of numbers to try to skew some details of a discussion.

[Morrias]

Something you really need to remember is they need to keep PvP and PvE balanced, while I agree necros are prolly the worst class in PvP, they are the most overpopulated on PvE, and necros can do some seriously amazing things in PvE that other classes cant do.. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[ReficulFonwaps]

That one guy is right, PVP is detrimental to this game. EQ2 was never meant to have balanced PVP, but once they implemented PVP everyone expected balance along with it. So now not only do the devs have the headache of attempting to balance 24 classes in PVE, they have to deal with balancing PVP as well.

[skidmark]

That statement is asinine.

[Vilesummon]

<cite>ReficulFonwaps wrote:</cite><blockquote>That one guy is right, PVP is detrimental to this game. EQ2 was never meant to have balanced PVP, but once they implemented PVP everyone expected balance along with it. So now not only do the devs have the headache of attempting to balance 24 classes in PVE, they have to deal with balancing PVP as well.</blockquote><span style="font-size: small;">I know, the angst of their pain. They probably don't get paid to work either. Here is a thought, games with well established PVP set ups seem to excel. The games that are up and coming that promise to deliver on PVP are already showing promising numbers, maybe SOE should develop their game around the concept, instead of treating it like secondary issue. Even though it takes Exile guilds to get most of the raid content done efficiently, PVP guilds still are able to accomplish the goal, so where is this great imbalance that has been created? Is it because you can't solo ^^^ mobs and you feel you should be able to? What is the exact imbalance you are crying about? I know one thing, unlike on PVP it isn't that those darn brig/swash people are decimating me, so what is it?</span>

[Fatuus]

<cite>Vilesummon@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>That 8% of the player base may, in fact, also have toons on the PVE servers. I, for one, have a toon left on Guk just to see some friends occasionally. Others have said they can't bring themselves to delete toons that they put that much work into. The numbers you place on the board are impressive, but overall, how many are active toons? Another question would be, what business in their right mind would neglect 8% of their clients?You make the statement that PVP is the reason why coercers haven't gotten love, but you offer no rationale as to where your fact comes from. Using your own logic, would SOE actually allow such a minute portion of their clients dictate all movements. If that were the case, maybe so many pvp players wouldn't be abandoning the game when AoC comes out, although some have just had enough and given in to the idea that SOE doesn't care to fix prevalent problems.Your comment again, about pvp destroying the game is founded on what? I would have been done with this game back after the KoS release if it weren't for the twist that pvp offered. Do you remember the brilliance of releasing an expansion AND combining servers at the same time. The lag was fantastic, enough to drive a lot of people nuts.Here is a thought, perhaps SOE is what is wrong with the game here. As for your other comments about pvp ruining the game, how come there are 2 servers that hit the occasion "heavy" load...one is AB and the other....oh yeah, that PVP server, Nagafen. Guess all those silly people don't realize they are destroying the game. Maybe next time around SOE will actually incorporate the pvp structure into the game the next time they design it, say for EQ3 because pvp doesn't scare everyone. Judging from the INSANE response that AoC is getting, it would seem that more people embrace the idea, especially with the idea of battlegrounds.Maybe you should not call someone foolish for expressing an opinion, but instead should take his input and see if there is a way to appease all players, not just judgmental people like yourself. More power to the PVP players if that 8% is why coercers have suffered so long. IF that small of a minority can influence things, then they are indeed a powerful 8%. As you said, get a grip and get over yourself; not everyone is impressed by an endless regurgitation of numbers to try to skew some details of a discussion.</blockquote><p>"You make the statement that PVP is the reason why coercers haven't gotten love, but you offer no rationale as to where your fact comes from. Using your own logic, would SOE actually allow such a minute portion of their clients dictate all movements."</p><p>If you played a coercer you would know how they nerfed the charm spell due to it being overpowered in PVP. In PVE it allows a coercer to solo effectively since their charmed pet could take a few hits, now basically with the HP nerfs it can take 3 tops. They also nerfed other aspects of the coercer to make them less powerful in PVP.</p><p>"Your comment again, about pvp destroying the game is founded on what? I would have been done with this game back after the KoS release if it weren't for the twist that pvp offered."</p><p>I am glad that you came back...this is nice to know. The bottom line is that much more players left the game due to class imbalance issues that became the direct result of PVP based problems. Coercers are the best example of this in game, but rangers are a close second. Just as any PVE ranger if they got nerfed due to PVP issues. SK's (what little they did) got scaled back due to PVP damage output concerns...which directly impacted their already messed up class dynamics. I could stat more but, I figured this is a good enough point already.</p><p>"Maybe you should not call someone foolish for expressing an opinion, but instead should take his input and see if there is a way to appease all players, not just judgmental people like yourself. More power to the PVP players if that 8% is why coercers have suffered so long. IF that small of a minority can influence things, then they are indeed a powerful 8%. As you said, get a grip and get over yourself; not everyone is impressed by an endless regurgitation of numbers to try to skew some details of a discussion."</p><p>Server loads are dependent on when you look to log on the game. Some are Euro based now and some are Aussie/US based. In either case there IS only 2 PVP servers that is not exchange based (and one of the two is for roleplaying players)...so what exactly IS your point? Yes it would be heavy at times if PVP players want to play...but there are 16 PVE servers (non exchange) and only 2 PVP servers.</p>

[skidmark]

You have offered no proof whatsoever. You realize that there is a difference between PvP damage and PvE damage on PvP servers? They adjust PvP damage completely outside of all PvE constraints. You offer up inflammatory statements with zero proof. You should be a political pundit, because you are excellent at baseless punditry.

[Fatuus]

<cite>skidmark wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have offered no proof whatsoever. You realize that there is a difference between PvP damage and PvE damage on PvP servers? They adjust PvP damage completely outside of all PvE constraints. You offer up inflammatory statements with zero proof. You should be a political pundit, because you are excellent at baseless punditry.</blockquote><p>Hmm ok</p><p>Charm nerfs...</p><p><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/20228-charm-nerf.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/2...charm-nerf.html</a></p><p><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/20701-frowned-charm-quest-mobs.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/2...quest-mobs.html</a></p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=406896" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=406896</a></p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=398816" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=398816</a></p><p>Do you need any more posts about the charm nerf? I can come up with more?</p>

[skidmark]

<cite>Fatuus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>skidmark wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have offered no proof whatsoever. You realize that there is a difference between PvP damage and PvE damage on PvP servers? They adjust PvP damage completely outside of all PvE constraints. You offer up inflammatory statements with zero proof. You should be a political pundit, because you are excellent at baseless punditry.</blockquote><p>Hmm ok</p><p>Charm nerfs...</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/20228-charm-nerf.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/2...charm-nerf.html</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/20701-frowned-charm-quest-mobs.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/2...quest-mobs.html</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=406896" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=406896</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=398816" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=398816</a></p><p>Do you need any more posts about the charm nerf? I can come up with more?</p></blockquote>Link1: I see one person claims it was because of PvP with absolutely no proof offered. Link 2: Makes no reference to PvP whatsoever. It has to do with charming quest mobs.Link 3: The post starts off with the assertion that the change was due to PvP damage being too high with no proof to back it up. Link 4: Is the closest you can come to supporting your argument, yet it only does so tangentially. On Dec. 12th apparently a PvP Wizard complained on the Coercer forum that he was getting hit by a Coercer PvP pet for 6-10K in RoK. How is this tangential and not a direct support of your argument? A PvP player complained that the particular pet in question's damage was out of whack with the DPS hierarchy in EQ. It was the only way a Dev would have probably found this out without seeing it live for himself (since mobs can't whine). If the problem were only because they did too much damage in PvP, but they were meant to nuke for that much in PvE, they can change that. Unfortunately for T8 Coercer's it illustrated that the pet's DPS was not being nerfed upon charm like all other mobs are that get charmed. Your "nerf" was not what it seems, but merely the closing of a loophole that players were exploiting.I am still waiting for more proof. I can do this all day.

[Vilesummon]

Sounds almost like someone wants coercers to have access to anything in regards to charm. It would make TOTAL sense to make them able to have better pets than the summoners who are supposed to have the class built around their pet. The OP brought it up in regard to PVP because the problem is very clear on a PVP server, but regardless, coercers shouldn't have better pets than the pet summoning classes, that would be a little silly, don't you think? What would the point of summoners be at all if that were the case?

[Oh]

<cite>Vilesummon@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sounds almost like someone wants coercers to have access to anything in regards to charm. It would make TOTAL sense to make them able to have better pets than the summoners who are supposed to have the class built around their pet. The OP brought it up in regard to PVP because the problem is very clear on a PVP server, but regardless, coercers shouldn't have better pets than the pet summoning classes, that would be a little silly, don't you think? What would the point of summoners be at all if that were the case?</blockquote>Why can't coercers have better pets then a pet summoning class? Pet summoning classes don't have thier pets turn on them and insta gibble them. It all comes back to risk vs reward.

[Lodrelhai]

<cite>Vilesummon@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sounds almost like someone wants coercers to have access to anything in regards to charm. It would make TOTAL sense to make them able to have better pets than the summoners who are supposed to have the class built around their pet. The OP brought it up in regard to PVP because the problem is very clear on a PVP server, but regardless, coercers shouldn't have better pets than the pet summoning classes, that would be a little silly, don't you think? What would the point of summoners be at all if that were the case?</blockquote>My necromancer's pet is 100% loyal to him.  My conjuror's as well.  If my coercer grabs a pet, he runs the risk of that pet breaking charm and turning him into a smear.  Heck, getting a pet risks being turned into a smear - if the mez or the charm is resisted, a coercer is SOL.IMHO, if a coercer is willing to take the quite substantial risks of charming, say, an even-con heroic, they should have the benefits of mastering such a pet.

[Jacien]

Coercers are being completely revamped in the next live update. Part of that revamp is a change to the Possession spell, which will become a permanent (in zone) charmed pet.Any good coercer knows there are pets in some zones they can charm to use to tank the entire zone without any problems, hell without ever casting a spell. Pets that are healers can heal, nuke, often have damage shields on them. There are some really fantastic mobs to charm out there.The disparity between summoners and coercers will become huge. Why would anyone ever roll a summoner class again? Coercers have far better utility and will become superior soloers with perma pets.Conji's with Hydro are the only summoner I can see ever being useful.

[Fatuus]

<cite>skidmark wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fatuus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>skidmark wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have offered no proof whatsoever. You realize that there is a difference between PvP damage and PvE damage on PvP servers? They adjust PvP damage completely outside of all PvE constraints. You offer up inflammatory statements with zero proof. You should be a political pundit, because you are excellent at baseless punditry.</blockquote><p>Hmm ok</p><p>Charm nerfs...</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/20228-charm-nerf.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/2...charm-nerf.html</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/20701-frowned-charm-quest-mobs.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/2...quest-mobs.html</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=406896" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=406896</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=398816" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=398816</a></p><p>Do you need any more posts about the charm nerf? I can come up with more?</p></blockquote>Link1: I see one person claims it was because of PvP with absolutely no proof offered. Link 2: Makes no reference to PvP whatsoever. It has to do with charming quest mobs.Link 3: The post starts off with the assertion that the change was due to PvP damage being too high with no proof to back it up. Link 4: Is the closest you can come to supporting your argument, yet it only does so tangentially. On Dec. 12th apparently a PvP Wizard complained on the Coercer forum that he was getting hit by a Coercer PvP pet for 6-10K in RoK. How is this tangential and not a direct support of your argument? A PvP player complained that the particular pet in question's damage was out of whack with the DPS hierarchy in EQ. It was the only way a Dev would have probably found this out without seeing it live for himself (since mobs can't whine). If the problem were only because they did too much damage in PvP, but they were meant to nuke for that much in PvE, they can change that. Unfortunately for T8 Coercer's it illustrated that the pet's DPS was not being nerfed upon charm like all other mobs are that get charmed. Your "nerf" was not what it seems, but merely the closing of a loophole that players were exploiting.I am still waiting for more proof. I can do this all day.</blockquote><p>Ok I will try to break it down into kiddie talk for you so maybe you can grasp the issue.</p><p>Charm spell...and its nerfing...was done so that mobs that were charmed did LESS damage then what they were doing before. Charming a heroic mob, as some people stated earlier, has signifigant risks involved. The damage output and health of charmed mobs were reduced to nerf them in PVP fights. The consequence of this is that it is much harder for a coercer to SOLO in PVE. Also a coercers damage output was signifigantly reduced in groups. A good coercer with the right charmed mob could do 4 to 5k dps pretty easily in a group setting. Just about every zone had a good mob coercers could charm for dps purposes. If a coercer was smart and wanted to dps in a group...they could do so. Coercers can still dps, but the changes that were made to counter and issue in PVP really essentially broke the usefulness of charm for soloing purposes in PVE. This is just one example of how coercers got shafted due to PVP environment changes.</p><p>Lastly keep in mind that Summoners, and illusionists can summon a new pet when their pet dies...coercers have no such luxury when soloing. Wizards and Warlocks do not have a pet they can summon...but they do have 2 roots they can keep on the mob plus snare spells to reduce their running speed which makes it easy for them to solo in PVE. The hardest class by far to solo with is the coercer now due to the charm nerfs.</p>

[Fatuus]

<cite>Pedigru@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Coercers are being completely revamped in the next live update. Part of that revamp is a change to the Possession spell, which will become a permanent (in zone) charmed pet.Any good coercer knows there are pets in some zones they can charm to use to tank the entire zone without any problems, hell without ever casting a spell. Pets that are healers can heal, nuke, often have damage shields on them. There are some really fantastic mobs to charm out there.The disparity between summoners and coercers will become huge. Why would anyone ever roll a summoner class again? Coercers have far better utility and will become superior soloers with perma pets.Conji's with Hydro are the only summoner I can see ever being useful.</blockquote>This is true, coercers are finally getting some love. The thing is tho that they still got major aspects of their class shafted due to PVP balancing issues.

[Bozidar]

<cite>Fatuus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok I will try to break it down into kiddie talk for you so maybe you can grasp the issue.</p><p>Charm spell...and its nerfing...was done so that mobs that were charmed did LESS damage then what they were doing before. Charming a heroic mob, as some people stated earlier, has signifigant risks involved. The damage output and health of charmed mobs were reduced to nerf them in PVP fights. The consequence of this is that it is much harder for a coercer to SOLO in PVE. Also a coercers damage output was signifigantly reduced in groups. A good coercer with the right charmed mob could do 4 to 5k dps pretty easily in a group setting. Just about every zone had a good mob coercers could charm for dps purposes. If a coercer was smart and wanted to dps in a group...they could do so. Coercers can still dps, but the changes that were made to counter and issue in PVP really essentially broke the usefulness of charm for soloing purposes in PVE. This is just one example of how coercers got shafted due to PVP environment changes.</p><p>Lastly keep in mind that Summoners, and illusionists can summon a new pet when their pet dies...coercers have no such luxury when soloing. Wizards and Warlocks do not have a pet they can summon...but they do have 2 roots they can keep on the mob plus snare spells to reduce their running speed which makes it easy for them to solo in PVE. The hardest class by far to solo with is the coercer now due to the charm nerfs.</p></blockquote><p>Charm spells nerf was done because they were doing too much damage.  It had nothing to do with PvP, it had to do with a broken mechanic on the scaling of damage.  Dont worry about your pet breaking though, that wont happen after the next LU.  As a PVPer, i guess i'll take credit for that being a PvP fix, since it seems everything bad happens because of us we might as well claim something good too.</p><p>Buddy, your reason and logic failed to deliver.  No one gets nerfed in PvE because of PvP, the devs just wont do that.  You may <i>perceieve</i> as something happening because of pvp, but trust me.. we get so little love the chances of that happening are about the same as you winning the lottery w/o buying a ticket.</p><p>In pvp we have a whole additional rule set on top of the pve set.  it moderates how much damage is done in pvp combat, how long durations are, how resistability works ect... so the devs can play with pvp w/o touching pve at all.  Believe me, if they made a pve change it was because they believed a pve change was needed - not because of pvp.</p><p>so go pick on someone else, and stop being a forum bully.</p>

[Bozidar]

<cite>Fatuus wrote:</cite><blockquote><b></b>This is true, coercers are finally getting some love. The thing is tho that they still got major aspects of their class shafted due to PVP balancing issues.</blockquote><p>I know a coercer who solo'd from 64 to around 70 out in New Tunari.  He knew which pet to get that would hit for a huge amount, and could then go around tanking all the heroics and grinding through them all like butter.</p><p>It's time you realized that there were some pve aspects of the coercer that were out of balance with other pet-classes in terms of pve, and that's why the change was made -- not because of pvp.</p>

[Vilesummon]

<cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vilesummon@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sounds almost like someone wants coercers to have access to anything in regards to charm. It would make TOTAL sense to make them able to have better pets than the summoners who are supposed to have the class built around their pet. The OP brought it up in regard to PVP because the problem is very clear on a PVP server, but regardless, coercers shouldn't have better pets than the pet summoning classes, that would be a little silly, don't you think? What would the point of summoners be at all if that were the case?</blockquote>My necromancer's pet is 100% loyal to him.  My conjuror's as well.  If my coercer grabs a pet, he runs the risk of that pet breaking charm and turning him into a smear.  Heck, getting a pet risks being turned into a smear - if the mez or the charm is resisted, a coercer is SOL.IMHO, if a coercer is willing to take the quite substantial risks of charming, say, an even-con heroic, they should have the benefits of mastering such a pet.</blockquote>Didn't you read that the coercer pet breaking isn't going to happen in the next LU? What exactly happens if the coercer charm is resisted...10% armor damage, dust off the robe and back at it. Life goes on. I still don't get where you think (especially after the non-breaking charm) that a non-summoning class should suddenly be better pet masters than the classes that are built around that design. Now, given the fact that the pet won't turn on the coercer, do you really want to debate that issue again. Maybe you didn't know that was in the next update.

[skidmark]

<cite>Fatuus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Ok I will try to break it down into kiddie talk for you so maybe you can grasp the issue.<p>Charm spell...and its nerfing...was done so that mobs that were charmed did LESS damage then what they were doing before. Charming a heroic mob, as some people stated earlier, has signifigant risks involved. The damage output and health of charmed mobs were reduced to nerf them in PVP fights. The consequence of this is that it is much harder for a coercer to SOLO in PVE. Also a coercers damage output was signifigantly reduced in groups. A good coercer with the right charmed mob could do 4 to 5k dps pretty easily in a group setting. Just about every zone had a good mob coercers could charm for dps purposes. If a coercer was smart and wanted to dps in a group...they could do so. Coercers can still dps, but the changes that were made to counter and issue in PVP really essentially broke the usefulness of charm for soloing purposes in PVE. This is just one example of how coercers got shafted due to PVP environment changes.</p><p>Lastly keep in mind that Summoners, and illusionists can summon a new pet when their pet dies...coercers have no such luxury when soloing. Wizards and Warlocks do not have a pet they can summon...but they do have 2 roots they can keep on the mob plus snare spells to reduce their running speed which makes it easy for them to solo in PVE. The hardest class by far to solo with is the coercer now due to the charm nerfs.</p></blockquote>LOL, kiddie talk. I doubt that you can understand most of what I am saying. You have yet to put up one intelligible argument with any facts. I hear whining, complaining, and false accusations. My 5 year old is more mature than you.You make the assertion yet again that this was changed because of PvP, yet you haven't given a single shred of evidence aside from hearsay. You sir have failed utterly and entirely to prove your point.

[Jacien]

There was a significant outcry, after the release of RoK, when coercers found a specific mob that put out enough damage to 1 shot most any player. The majority of this outcry occurred from the PvP player base.Skidmark, will you concede to this at the very least?It's anyones guess whether or not the developers would have touched the coercer class otherwise. That is the point of this entire argument.---You both see the outcry building over Fission (and someone will likely add Rift) in the PvP Forum? While it certainly isn't nearly as well organized as the outcry over coercer pets 1 shotting people, it's the very same situation. There is a class with a spell that can 1 shot people and here we see the outcry happening all over again.Let's see if anything is done.

[skidmark]

Thats fine, but that is not his argument, his argument is that they made changes to PvE to fix PvP. The outcry from the PvP community simply drew attention to a problem that needed to be fixed in both arenas.

[Lodrelhai]

<cite>Vilesummon@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vilesummon@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sounds almost like someone wants coercers to have access to anything in regards to charm. It would make TOTAL sense to make them able to have better pets than the summoners who are supposed to have the class built around their pet. The OP brought it up in regard to PVP because the problem is very clear on a PVP server, but regardless, coercers shouldn't have better pets than the pet summoning classes, that would be a little silly, don't you think? What would the point of summoners be at all if that were the case?</blockquote>My necromancer's pet is 100% loyal to him.  My conjuror's as well.  If my coercer grabs a pet, he runs the risk of that pet breaking charm and turning him into a smear.  Heck, getting a pet risks being turned into a smear - if the mez or the charm is resisted, a coercer is SOL.IMHO, if a coercer is willing to take the quite substantial risks of charming, say, an even-con heroic, they should have the benefits of mastering such a pet.</blockquote>Didn't you read that the coercer pet breaking isn't going to happen in the next LU? What exactly happens if the coercer charm is resisted...10% armor damage, dust off the robe and back at it. Life goes on. I still don't get where you think (especially after the non-breaking charm) that a non-summoning class should suddenly be better pet masters than the classes that are built around that design. Now, given the fact that the pet won't turn on the coercer, do you really want to debate that issue again. Maybe you didn't know that was in the next update.</blockquote>Actually, you're correct - I didn't know that was in the next update.  Doesn't address the nerf to pet damage, and there is still the resist risk when grabbing that pet, but it certainly helps.This does not make coercers a better pet class than summoners.  Summoners can heal their pet, draw mana from their pet, summon a swarm of pets, and change pets on the fly.  Just about everything they do short of attack spells is centered on their pet.  Coercers are centered on mind control - having a pet is just one option.  And it's an option which sacrifices utility, as pets take up 3 concentration slots.  For soloing, it's fantastic.  For grouping, I'm usually asked to ditch the pet and place some aggro management.  My summoners are never asked to cancel their pet, and rarely to change which one is up.So I'd say necros and conjurors still top coercers as far as pet use.Edit: Having now actually read up on the perma-pet, I note it is ONLY on the lvl 65 spell Possession, which is not part of the charm line at all.  Which doesn't really help my lvl 42 Coercer much.  There's also some question as to the comparative viability of the Possession pet vs a charmed one, which will probably only be answered once this actually goes to test.

[Jacien]

<cite>skidmark wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thats fine, but that is not his argument, his argument is that they made changes to PvE to fix PvP. The outcry from the PvP community simply drew attention to a problem that needed to be fixed in both arenas.</blockquote>That presupposes there was a problem with the PvE Coercer. There wasn't one. In fact, it could be argued that the upcoming Coercer revamp supports this. Because, clearly, the Coercer class is not putting out enough damage in PvE right now...as stated by the lead developer himself.Some might even argue the nerf to pets contributed to the lowering of overall coercer dps.

[Konahito]

<p>O HAI GUYZ!!  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Okay, just a reminder to keep the debates at least civil, all right?  I understand that people get pretty impassioned about their class and discussing changes, but that doesn't mean you should be tossing around any backhanded insults either.  So let's just keep the talk about "kiddy terms" and debating the other posters comprehension and/or age out of the thread.  Argue your points, show your proofs and debate, don't insult.</p><p>Thanks, and now back to your heated debates!</p><p>/uses the heat to warm her office.  Silly spring taking it's time getting here....</p>

[skidmark]

<cite>Pedigru@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>skidmark wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thats fine, but that is not his argument, his argument is that they made changes to PvE to fix PvP. The outcry from the PvP community simply drew attention to a problem that needed to be fixed in both arenas.</blockquote>That presupposes there was a problem with the PvE Coercer. There wasn't one.In fact, it could be argued that the upcoming Coercer revamp supports this. Because, clearly, the Coercer class is not putting out enough damage in PvE right now...as stated by the lead developer himself.Some might even argue the nerf to pets contributed to the lowering of overall coercer dps.</blockquote><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=406896" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=406896</a></p><p> Gnobrin states in the thread above:</p><p> "There were some situations where some charmed creatures weren't receiving an appropriate reduction in their power when they were charmed, creating situations where coercers (while using these creatures in Kunark zones) could do damage that was out of line with even the highest DPS classes."</p><p>After putting Coercers back down to their pre-Kunark DPS level, they have enabled themselves to conduct a revamp of the rest of their spells. This isn't to rectify T7/T8 Coercer's (the only ones affected by this "nerf"), it is to rectify their DPS to keep them in line with Illusionists, across all tiers.</p>

[karnath]

<p>peeps crying about pvp ruining the game..  have u played pvp? ... ive played both ,  </p><p>since playing on a pvp server ive learned how to effectively use a great deal of the content to my advantage , such as potions, totems , etc that i never used in pve, and now use em to do pve content aswell. i also found to be competitive in pvp u have to get the best gear and spell upgrades u can, and use your aa's to the best benefit..   </p><p>the side effect of learning to pvp was my toons got extreamly more powerful vs pve ..  im soloing ^^^ greens and blues , where i never was able to do when i played on a pve server.. </p><p>pve has become even more easy to do since setting up for pvp, u learn theres more than mitigation ,  u also have to consider resists , hp, stats, etc. and u may say what do resists have to do with pve, it does alot.. if a mob cant land a spell on u, then u dont take any dammage, or get slowed or debuffed ...............</p><p>so i say pvp has improved the game in many ways .. and by making changes for pvp it benefite pve as well ....</p>

[ClawHammr]

<cite>Lodrelhai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vilesummon@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sounds almost like someone wants coercers to have access to anything in regards to charm. It would make TOTAL sense to make them able to have better pets than the summoners who are supposed to have the class built around their pet. The OP brought it up in regard to PVP because the problem is very clear on a PVP server, but regardless, coercers shouldn't have better pets than the pet summoning classes, that would be a little silly, don't you think? What would the point of summoners be at all if that were the case?</blockquote>My necromancer's pet is 100% loyal to him.  My conjuror's as well.  If my coercer grabs a pet, he runs the risk of that pet breaking charm and turning him into a smear.  Heck, getting a pet risks being turned into a smear - if the mez or the charm is resisted, a coercer is SOL.IMHO, if a coercer is willing to take the quite substantial risks of charming, say, an even-con heroic, they should have the benefits of mastering such a pet.</blockquote>What difference does it make how loyal your Pet is if your Pet cant help you win a PVP fight?  

[ClawHammr]

<cite>Fatuus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>skidmark wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fatuus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>skidmark wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have offered no proof whatsoever. You realize that there is a difference between PvP damage and PvE damage on PvP servers? They adjust PvP damage completely outside of all PvE constraints. You offer up inflammatory statements with zero proof. You should be a political pundit, because you are excellent at baseless punditry.</blockquote><p>Hmm ok</p><p>Charm nerfs...</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/20228-charm-nerf.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/2...charm-nerf.html</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/20701-frowned-charm-quest-mobs.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/2...quest-mobs.html</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=406896" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=406896</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=398816" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=398816</a></p><p>Do you need any more posts about the charm nerf? I can come up with more?</p></blockquote>Link1: I see one person claims it was because of PvP with absolutely no proof offered. Link 2: Makes no reference to PvP whatsoever. It has to do with charming quest mobs.Link 3: The post starts off with the assertion that the change was due to PvP damage being too high with no proof to back it up. Link 4: Is the closest you can come to supporting your argument, yet it only does so tangentially. On Dec. 12th apparently a PvP Wizard complained on the Coercer forum that he was getting hit by a Coercer PvP pet for 6-10K in RoK. How is this tangential and not a direct support of your argument? A PvP player complained that the particular pet in question's damage was out of whack with the DPS hierarchy in EQ. It was the only way a Dev would have probably found this out without seeing it live for himself (since mobs can't whine). If the problem were only because they did too much damage in PvP, but they were meant to nuke for that much in PvE, they can change that. Unfortunately for T8 Coercer's it illustrated that the pet's DPS was not being nerfed upon charm like all other mobs are that get charmed. Your "nerf" was not what it seems, but merely the closing of a loophole that players were exploiting.I am still waiting for more proof. I can do this all day.</blockquote><p>Lastly keep in mind that Summoners, and illusionists can summon a new pet when their pet dies...coercers have no such luxury when soloing.  </p></blockquote><p>     And you think the Mobs will just wait on us while we summon a new pet ? </p><p>       </p>

[Spaceweed]

Disparity is commonplace when you bolt PvP onto a PvE game.

[Illine]

<cite>ClawHammr wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fatuus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>skidmark wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Fatuus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>skidmark wrote:</cite><blockquote>You have offered no proof whatsoever. You realize that there is a difference between PvP damage and PvE damage on PvP servers? They adjust PvP damage completely outside of all PvE constraints. You offer up inflammatory statements with zero proof. You should be a political pundit, because you are excellent at baseless punditry.</blockquote><p>Hmm ok</p><p>Charm nerfs...</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/20228-charm-nerf.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/2...charm-nerf.html</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/20701-frowned-charm-quest-mobs.html" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/coercers/2...quest-mobs.html</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=406896" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=406896</a></p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=398816" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=398816</a></p><p>Do you need any more posts about the charm nerf? I can come up with more?</p></blockquote>Link1: I see one person claims it was because of PvP with absolutely no proof offered. Link 2: Makes no reference to PvP whatsoever. It has to do with charming quest mobs.Link 3: The post starts off with the assertion that the change was due to PvP damage being too high with no proof to back it up. Link 4: Is the closest you can come to supporting your argument, yet it only does so tangentially. On Dec. 12th apparently a PvP Wizard complained on the Coercer forum that he was getting hit by a Coercer PvP pet for 6-10K in RoK. How is this tangential and not a direct support of your argument? A PvP player complained that the particular pet in question's damage was out of whack with the DPS hierarchy in EQ. It was the only way a Dev would have probably found this out without seeing it live for himself (since mobs can't whine). If the problem were only because they did too much damage in PvP, but they were meant to nuke for that much in PvE, they can change that. Unfortunately for T8 Coercer's it illustrated that the pet's DPS was not being nerfed upon charm like all other mobs are that get charmed. Your "nerf" was not what it seems, but merely the closing of a loophole that players were exploiting.I am still waiting for more proof. I can do this all day.</blockquote><p>Lastly keep in mind that Summoners, and illusionists can summon a new pet when their pet dies...coercers have no such luxury when soloing.  </p></blockquote><p>     And you think the Mobs will just wait on us while we summon a new pet ? </p><p>       </p></blockquote>yes, you can root it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> mezz it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> fear it:p ... then cast <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Alfgand]

<p><b>Fatuus Wrote: The hardest class by far to solo with is the coercer now due to the charm nerfs.</b></p><p>Um, sorry. Coercers can still solo better than most classes. Your pet is certain to break at the worst possible moment but that is just to keep you on your toes. lol  That is the fun part of being a Coercer, fighting 4 mobs at once and all of a sudden your pet gets fed up with your constant orders and wants to take a large bite out you. That said Coercers can solo quite well as long as you are quick thinking, nimble and use the tools that you have.</p><p>FYI, our issues do not have anything to do with soloing. They revolve more around raiding and grouping and disparity in DPS with our fellow chanters the Illusionists, in those situations. Also some spells that drain power really don't do anything and so on. See Coercer board "1 March" thread to see the details. </p><p>I would not as some call it in this thread a complete revamp. Charm, Mez and most spells are not being changed. I would call it a major upgrade fixing many things that have been broken for a long time but many other things will not be effected. (BTW: PVE perspective here, no idea about PVP)</p><p><b>Vilesummon Wrote: </b></p><p><b>Didn't you read that the coercer pet breaking isn't going to happen in the next LU? What exactly happens if the coercer charm is resisted...10% armor damage, dust off the robe and back at it. Life goes on. I still don't get where you think (especially after the non-breaking charm) that a non-summoning class should suddenly be better pet masters than the classes that are built around that design. Now, given the fact that the pet won't turn on the coercer, do you really want to debate that issue again. Maybe you didn't know that was in the next update.</b></p><p>LoL. Maybe someone else does not not know what is happening in the next update. There has been absolutely no indication that Charm is being changed in any way. None, nada, zipp.</p><p>Possession is being changed. Possession is not charm. What I think, just my crazy opinion, is Coercers will get a version of Illusionist Personae. In fact my bet is it will be identical. It will not be able to be used in combination with a charmed pet. It will like I said be identical to Personae except the pet will look like a mob rather than  the caster. Again that is just my best guess.</p>

[Jacien]

Euw, that's boring. I don't want an illusionist pet.I was hoping it would be Possession but permanent. IE: Mez a mob. Quickly /follow the mob, or a group member. Cast the Possession spell...and viola, you're the mob until you decide to let go of it.Now THAT would be fun and exciting.