Troubador DPS rankings and a possible boost

[Windain]

<p>I haven't seen this topic in a while and was kinda curious what other people thought of Troubador dps at the moment.  This is mainly thinking about grouping and lower end raids.  I am no expert at high end raiding and therefore I feel I have no place commenting about it.</p><p>Back in the days when the classes were all altered with LU 13 (?), Troubadors were supposed to be considered T3.</p><p>Old dps chart:</p><p>T1: Sorcerers/Predators</p><p>T2: Summoners/Rogues</p><p>T3: Enchanters/Bards</p><p>T4: Fighters (although berserkers always did a lot more damage)</p><p>T5: Priests</p><p>However, as I have recently seen this chart was thrown out sometime (I assume It would be impossible to keep it balanced 100% of the time).  As I see it right now:</p><p>Current dps chart (Note: not perfect... an estimation):</p><p>Sorcerers/Assassins</p><p>. (large gap)</p><p>Rogues/Rangers (moving up after patch?)/summoners</p><p>Enchanters/Fighters</p><p>Furies/Bards (although I've seen furies do consistently more if not healing)</p><p>Other Priests</p><p>With average gear, both bards do much less damage than enchanters (good to see coercers getting buffed though, need to even out with illusionists).  I was wondering what utility bards have that we deserve less dps.  I feel being able to tank is a massive utility, yet I get outdamaged by the tanks almost all the time (except crusaders... sometimes).  With non-raiding gear, the troubador's chain is practically as good as paper (and even some bards use cloth for more dps!).  I know my class, I activate my abilities in the order to maximize my damage and have decent weapons for a casual raider so I believe any dps disparities would be related to the class and not my personal skill.</p><p>I have always been a utility person and I would love more utility instead of dps (if I can make the group do 1000dps more or shorten breaks vs a 500dps self increase, I'd take the utility increase).  I would love 1 group mez with a long recast like our current single target mez, while this is enchanter territory... it would free up the need for enchanters for instances like maidens.  There is no instance that requires a guardian or cleric (most fighters and priests work and even more than 1 is desired).  Dirges would obviously need a utility boost too (While they might be better off in someways, I could see them using a boost also).</p><p>The other option to utility would be to boost our dps.  There is no way we should ever rival a predator or a rogue, but maybe at least the fighters, priests, and maybe enchanters.  As I said earlier, I cannot comment on high end as gear might boost us above the others.  The mythical epic adds a great amount of utility, but the only way I and other casual players will be seeing it anytime soon would be through events like CL's Clamazing race.  So this cannot be factored when balancing for non-raid targets.</p><p>With the Coercer class changes in the next LU, I can see future changes to other classes (Bards, SKs, etc).  Troubadors are one of the least played classes and often sited as having some weaknesses (Inept at soloing).  I know some will say we can solo (which we can), but it takes a whole lot more effort on our behalf than it does for many other classes.  I even saw a coercer soloing 3+ at a time, whereas I would be a bard sandwich if I tried that.  I love the class and I bet a few tweaks will make it that much better.</p><p>Please feel free to add constructive ideas or flame me, this is more of an out-loud thought that I feel others could contribute to.</p><p>Oh and Aerilik can you please change the Troubador power drains to damage also? Please <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />?</p>

[Windain]

<p>Please note that this is not a thread where I am actively trying to suggest ideas to improve our own class, if you would like that please contribute to this thread: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=194420" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=194420</a></p><p>If you would like to know how to improve dps, look at the various AA posts or Troubador DPS posts.</p><p>I am just seeing where we belong in relation to other classes and why others feel we belong in such a position (or if we need adjustment up or down).</p>

[Banditman]

Why do you need a group mez for Maidens?  I don't like that idea at all.  Honestly, I can't remember the last time I cast my group mez as a Chanter . . . there just aren't very many groups to use it on, and the cast time is just too slow.Yea, it definitely steps on Enchanters, not because it enables you to mez a group, but because it gives you two mez spells, plus Charm which can be used as a very short duration mez.    I don't like the idea of that at all.

[TerabithianWhisperwi]

decided to post this as it's own entry.

[Jehannum]

<p>I don't necessarily feel that adding extra utility is something we need.  I'd tend to say that de-marginalising some of the utility we already possess might be more worthwhile.</p><p>1. Alin's should be a true AE, rather than group.  So should the knockdown.  And Spell Rebuff.  And Chaos Anthem.  The rest of our debuffs and damage abilities are fine as is.  This would make the spells more dangerous to use in some situations, but more generally add to personal/groupwide/raidwide dps.  Having <b>zero</b> true AE abilities, when virtually <b>every song we sang</b> in EQ1 was an area effect, is a slap in the face with a sharkskin* glove.  Granted, it only really became a critical issue (though it's bothered me since launch) when Kunark, with its small encounter groups and multi-group encounters, skewed the balance.</p><p>2. Lore's should have its power drain effect replaced with something (more) useful, or removed entirely.  Some PvP folks may disagree (I don't know for sure how viable it is in PvP, but it's assuredly worthless in PvE) but I'd far rather have it, say, increase the casting time of the mob's abilities by 50% (similar to the spellcasting penalty imposed on Inquisitors with Enhanced Zeal/Fana) rather than draining a risibly small amount of extra power when the mob uses an ability.  The last thing we need is some number-cruncher deciding that the numbers look right and balancing the Lore line as if the drain actually meant anything.</p><p>3. Requiem of Reflection needs a facelift.  I've seen I don't know how many reasonable ideas on this one, but despite the fact that in some cases I've seen it actually reflect things, those situations are few and far between.  Personally I'd like to see it become Aria of Absorption and reduce all incoming spell damage by a fixed amount or percentage.</p><p>I think with just a few small fixes like these we'd have more than enough utility to justify any deficiency in dps.</p><p><span style="font-size: xx-small;">*look up 'denticles' if you don't understand.</span></p>

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p> Whether our utility justifies our DPS loss is strictly a matter of opinion. Personally, I don't think it does. Looking at the whole troubadour package, it seems to be lacking something.</p><p>> Honestly, I can't remember the last time I cast my group mez as a Chanter</p><p>I use it all the time, but I agree that giving it to the troubadour wouldnt help matters much.</p>

[RanmaBoyType]

<cite>Jehannum wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I don't necessarily feel that adding extra utility is something we need.  I'd tend to say that de-marginalising some of the utility we already possess might be more worthwhile.</p><p>1. Alin's should be a true AE, rather than group.  So should the knockdown.  And Spell Rebuff.  And Chaos Anthem.  The rest of our debuffs and damage abilities are fine as is.  This would make the spells more dangerous to use in some situations, but more generally add to personal/groupwide/raidwide dps.  Having <b>zero</b> true AE abilities, when virtually <b>every song we sang</b> in EQ1 was an area effect, is a slap in the face with a sharkskin* glove.  Granted, it only really became a critical issue (though it's bothered me since launch) when Kunark, with its small encounter groups and multi-group encounters, skewed the balance.</p><p>2. Lore's should have its power drain effect replaced with something (more) useful, or removed entirely.  Some PvP folks may disagree (I don't know for sure how viable it is in PvP, but it's assuredly worthless in PvE) but I'd far rather have it, say, increase the casting time of the mob's abilities by 50% (similar to the spellcasting penalty imposed on Inquisitors with Enhanced Zeal/Fana) rather than draining a risibly small amount of extra power when the mob uses an ability.  The last thing we need is some number-cruncher deciding that the numbers look right and balancing the Lore line as if the drain actually meant anything.</p><p>3. Requiem of Reflection needs a facelift.  I've seen I don't know how many reasonable ideas on this one, but despite the fact that in some cases I've seen it actually reflect things, those situations are few and far between.  Personally I'd like to see it become Aria of Absorption and reduce all incoming spell damage by a fixed amount or percentage.</p><p>I think with just a few small fixes like these we'd have more than enough utility to justify any deficiency in dps.</p><p><span style="font-size: xx-small;">*look up 'denticles' if you don't understand.</span></p></blockquote><p>1) Agree.  I never understood at all why bards have 0 true AoE abilities.  i would reckon the reason for this is each of those aoes listed have a re-occuring power cost, and to apply them to multiple encounters would probably crash the game given SoE's outstanding ability to write solid code</p><p>2) Agree, but not just lore's.  Power drains as they stand in PvE are 100% useless.  i have never once fought a mob where power drains served any purpose whatsoever (excpet for the first named in maidens.  In which SoE responded by making the mob immune to power drains.  fun right? )  It is my understanding that SoE is buffing up the coercers and changing their power drains into damage abilities, or some other functionaly ability.  I believe this should be looked into for troubs as well.</p><p>3)  I agree, i use requiem on some encounters, just to see if it helps at all, such as OK.  but for me, it still just does not proc enough to make it worthwhile.  I would reckon the raidwide wards are much more useful on the OK fight than requim is in its current form</p>

[Chefren]

As a raiding Dirge, I would say that while the Dirge and Troub have the same dps potential, Dirges tend to end up in group where the buff better support our dps. Troubs end up in caster groups, but are still doing half of their own damage from melee. As a result, Dirges end up doing more dps. It's a hard nut to crack for SOE but I wouldn't mind a dps boost (from spells) for Troubs to compensate.

[Kulaf]

When I get out DPS'd by a non-tanking Guardian.......my inner child weeps.

[Gargamel]

<p>Don't forget that alot of Troub DPS shows up under other people's name in the parse, from JC to group/raid wide dmg procs (like our mythical) -- its there but hidden.  </p><p> I've seen many mage raid groups have their dps jump 800 - 1000 regularly for EACH mage in the group, just by sticking a troub in there.</p><p>Not that any of that helps in soloing, but contrary to what others say sometimes, I feel troub are primarily a support class.  Every class should do dps but priority (specialty) of a troub is in DPS, it just happens to NOT be personal DPS under your name.</p>

[Raahl]

While I'd like to be high on the parse, I am not really worried about my personal DPS.  Sure I will maximize my personal DPS, but I just won't sweat it.   I really like seeing how much group/raidwide DPS I can add.    After all, it's the raidwide parse that really matters. 

[Banditman]

You know what would be handy?  A plug in for ACT that could parse through a zone wide and add up all the damage from Precise Note and Dissonant Note.

[Raahl]

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>You know what would be handy?  A plug in for ACT that could parse through a zone wide and add up all the damage from Precise Note and Dissonant Note.</blockquote><p>Yes that would.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />    But then the casters would be bummed because Troubadors would start compeating in the parse.</p><p>Scary thought, would Sony then take it upon themselves to nerf Troubadors based upon these new numbers?   Something to think about.</p>

[Raahl]

BTW I think I'll trick ACT by changing the names around those spells to my characters and seeing what a parse would look like.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Banditman]

Oh, I don't care if ACT credits me or someone else for the damage, I just want to know what it is for my own sake.  I wonder if there's a way to use a data correction to do it.  Hmmm.

[Banditman]

I don't have a bunch of logs available here, but, I did have an old log from when we were working on taking down Overking.  Very interesting and eye opening.I was playing my Illusionist on this encounter, but our other Troubador was present.  The group was:  Troubador, Illusionist, Necromancer, Conjuror, Wizard, Warden.For this comparison, I used total damage instead of DPS.  I think that's actually a better and more effective comparison for the case we're looking at here.In terms of damage dealt, our MT actually dealt the most damage, right at 7 million HP of damage.  Makes sense, he was not having to switch targets and deal with the adds.  Our Wizard was second at 4.5 million, Illusionist at 3.5 million.  The Troubador checked in at 2.46 million.Across all mobs, Precise Note dealt 1.27 million HP of damage and Dissonant Note dealt 1.35 million HP of damage.When you add the damage of Precise Note and Dissonant Note to our Troubadors totals, our Troubador actually dealt the second most damage in the zone at 4.52 million HP.  ACT showed the Troub in 10th . . . but in reality the overall impact was much, much higher.

[Raahl]

Wow that is an eye-opener!.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Andromedus32]

<p>  WOW exactly I made a statement in guild awhile back that said a troub adds 50 percent to a damage dealer. Even though I was slapped in the face at the statement the wizard that was present said hey man I bet you add 30 percent though. Ok so lets take that. If you had several casters in your group and JCapped/cit increase and PoTm how much does that add up to? All this on top of your parse that you do.</p><p>     Troubs have descent DPS on top of amazing utility</p>

[Andromedus32]

Hell I forgot Aria's which is huge so factor that in the equation.

[Bozidar]

<p>i'm on a pvp server, nagafen, and my current main is a brigand.  We're doing T1 raiding, and we're pretty [Removed for Content] atm, but i'm leveling my troub.  He's 61 right now, and i'm trying to get him to 80 as quick as i can.</p><p>i'm going to get to 80, with not nearly as good gear as my brig has, and run a test.</p><p>10 fights with me parsing as hard as i can on my brig, coordinating my dispatches with other brigands, keeping mit debuffs on at all times, crit potions, the works.</p><p>then i'll swap him out and put my troub in the caster group, and see how the raid parses for the next 10 fights.</p><p>I think we me Jcapping my casters and the assassins.. the troub's gonna beat out the brig by more than a little, raid wide.</p>

[aelder~]

<p>A number of you have suggested our encounter spells should be made true AoE.  While I too would love to parse higher on room pulls, there is a mechanics & balance concern that prevents this change.  In original EQ, bards would toy with their runspeed buffs to tune them to the mobs they fought so as to stay always just ahead of them.  If you were a tad too fast still, you would turn more frequently, letting mobs close the gap on the diagonal.  You'd do this around a zone grabbing every mob in sight and then AoE chant them around the zone.</p><p>In EQ2, SOE has attempted to give bards higher group utility but less solo ability and definitely wanted to stop kiting.  To accomplish this, AEs were removed and our true spells were made interrruptible on the run.  Now that we can again cast everything on the run (except deity pets), don't expect to get AEs as well--suddenly we'd be zone kiting again and that definitely is not in the cards.</p><p>With respect to group mezz, why?  Sure initial runs through Maidens or RE2 were rough--but they were supposed to be.  Now that folks have learned how to pull in these zones, I hope you no longer encounter groups that aren't open to a troubador as sole crowd control.  In their current state, mezz and charm are fairly balanced in my mind as their use is flaky enough to seperate skilled from the unskilled -- both in groups and for soloing.</p><p>Cheers,</p><p>Aelder</p>