Bruisers and raids

[evilgamer]

<p>I have a level 37 bruiser atm and have been thinking about re-rolling another class because I heard nobody wants bruisers in raids at the end game.</p><p>Is this true?</p><p>I enjoy the class, but dont want to miss raid content because I picked the wrong class.</p><p>Thoughts?</p>

[Chanson]

I've heard that a lot as well, however my bruiser never seems to have that problem. Of course I have a pretty tight knit guild, so that makes a huge difference. We always accomodate all of our guildmembers that want to join in on our raids.

[Aull]

<cite>nipxur wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've heard that a lot as well, however<span style="font-size: medium;color: #ff0000;"> my bruiser never seems to have that problem. Of course I have a pretty tight knit guild, so that makes a huge difference.</span> We always accomodate all of our guildmembers that want to join in on our raids.</blockquote><p>That will be key. Hard core guilds study each raid encounter and what classes will be most benefical to the raid structure. The guild I am in has alliances with other guilds and while we all have a great friendship with these other guilds and they are great people they will usually pick a monk or scout class if a spot needs to be filled before they pick a bruiser. As it currently stands on my server of the two brawlers the monk will usually be the first choice of the two since they have more group oriented benefits like group haste, group fd, and a nice targetable heal.</p><p>Bruisers are a great class and I have more fun with this toon than any I have played. In the correct group a bruiser can throw out some nice dps, but a monk can do that too in a proper group and still bring what they have to the table so it is not about just dps. Just for the record I do not want a bruiser to get group feign death or a targetable heal, because then we would be just like a monk and there would be no reason for two brawlers. It would be nice if we actually had something that would help us be a benefit to groups and raid members.</p><p>I wouldn't want you to stop playing your bruiser because it is a toon that can be leveled fast in everyday norrath, but at this time unless you have some great friends in a guild your bruiser "could" be side lined possibly more than most toons for a benefical group class for raiding content.</p><p>That isn't set in stone that your bruiser will not be raiding or have trouble getting into raids. Every person situation is different. </p>

[evilgamer]

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>nipxur wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've heard that a lot as well, however<span style="font-size: medium;color: #ff0000;"> my bruiser never seems to have that problem. Of course I have a pretty tight knit guild, so that makes a huge difference.</span> We always accomodate all of our guildmembers that want to join in on our raids.</blockquote><p>That will be key. Hard core guilds study each raid encounter and what classes will be most benefical to the raid structure. The guild I am in has alliances with other guilds and while we all have a great friendship with these other guilds and they are great people they will usually pick a monk or scout class if a spot needs to be filled before they pick a bruiser. As it currently stands on my server of the two brawlers the monk will usually be the first choice of the two since they have more group oriented benefits like group haste, group fd, and a nice targetable heal.</p><p>Bruisers are a great class and I have more fun with this toon than any I have played. In the correct group a bruiser can throw out some nice dps, but a monk can do that too in a proper group and still bring what they have to the table so it is not about just dps. Just for the record I do not want a bruiser to get group feign death or a targetable heal, because then we would be just like a monk and there would be no reason for two brawlers. It would be nice if we actually had something that would help us be a benefit to groups and raid members.</p><p>I wouldn't want you to stop playing your bruiser because it is a toon that can be leveled fast in everyday norrath, but at this time unless you have some great friends in a guild your bruiser "could" be side lined possibly more than most toons for a benefical group class for raiding content.</p><p>That isn't set in stone that your bruiser will not be raiding or have trouble getting into raids. Every person situation is different. </p></blockquote>thank you for the honest answer, much appreciated

[Pnaxx]

<p>I too know that Raiding Guilds won't take a Bruiser. I had a friend of mine shop me around to raiding guilds on my server, without my knowledge really...but what the heck....and he is real tight with these guilds. They all said the same thing, they wanted a Monk, not a Bruiser.</p><p>So there you have it. If I were really into raiding, which I am not, I would betray to Monk, but at this point, I will raid with my guild when we get ready and that will be fine. </p>

[Aull]

<p>I have a friend in an excellent raid guild that had posted that applications were being accepted for the brawler classes so I made a phone call about it and told them I was applying for the position (or at least one of them). They told me that was an error and that it was really for monks to apply and not bruisers. They were nice and apologized but I told them I understood and there wasn't any hard feelings at all or ever would be.</p><p>They explained that guild leadership has examined what both brawlers bring to a group/raid structure and that the monk has better group/raid qualities than a bruiser. They said that it isn't that bruisers are a terrible class as they are known to be very nice dps given the proper setting, but they just do not offer what their raiding guild needs at the moment. Monk advanges are as they have been for a long time nice dps, group/raid melee haste, group/raid spell haste, group feign death, a nice targetable heal, and of course the addition of the lvl 80 peel+tsunami for emergency needs. Bruiser evaluation was nice dps (monk dps is just as strong if not stronger), a situational 4 sec drag, +112 combat art increase master lvl with 20% to taunt/detaunts (the taunting increase is very debatable here as if raids really benefit from it), and not having of course group fd and the targetable heal. All in all the monk gets the trophy.</p><p>Some guilds are this way and are very structured in every possible way to make the adventure or raid the best possible success from the start. Guilds that are this way are like a mechanic trying to find the right tool for the job and the tool that fits the best will be used. Bruisers as of now the way I am seeing it do not have the tools, but that doesn't change my enjoyment of what this toon has given me. I do like and want to hit the big time raids as often as I can, but again at times I will have to stand out of a raid. Other toons will have to set out of raids as well not just bruisers, again there can be only 24 toons in a raid and if the raid is mage heavy then a mage wanting in will prolly not get it if healers are needed.</p>

[Owa]

<span style="font-size: medium;font-family: times new roman,times;">Bruisers are not and never have been 'must-have' classes for raids. Having said that, if you know your class and have good gear you should be able to get into all but the toughest, high-end raids - with all but the most efficient, high-end raid guilds. </span>

[yzyh]

<p>Its not that bruiser are uselss to a raid force. its just that many other class can do bether.</p><p>Mtank spot is reserved for a guardian. You wanna off-tank ? Roll a guardian, Pally, Berseker.</p><p>So you will be used in the DPS spot. Sure a skilled well geared bruiser can dish quite a lot of DPS. But you would have done more rolling a real DPS class.</p><p>Yes you can take a Ford Focus build it up and win a race vs a Ford Mustang. But you would have been faster with a Ford Mustang boosted like made. (you got the idea).</p><p>And yes monk are more valuable to a raidforce then a bruiser. Personaly I will switch my bruiser to monk once I stop soloing.</p><p>If their is 30player logged on for the raid. As a brusier you will probably not be in the raid. Theire is exeption to that. Your the raid elader friend. Your bether skilled/ geared then most other DPSer. But well, Skilled geared mages, rogues will be taken b4 you usualy.</p><p>P.S. IMo the problem is that bruiser are ubber soloer, ubber tank group but nothing of this willl be your role in Raids.</p><p>Kinda like Ret Pallly in wow that where DPS since lvl 1 but ended healer in raids.....</p>

[Dravendar]

<cite>nipxur wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've heard that a lot as well, however my bruiser never seems to have that problem. Of course I have a pretty tight knit guild, so that makes a huge difference. We always accomodate all of our guildmembers that want to join in on our raids.</blockquote>Not to sound like a [Removed for Content], but I can already tell you are in a low end raid guild, struggling to fill every raid.  While it is true that I have one bruiser in my guild, he is treated like a stepchild and abused accordingly.  I still love him but it is a relationship that will not repeat itself when it is time for him to quit or leave.  So, unless you are among the privileged few (and I mean FEW), you will never see the endgame in all it's entirety.  Did I just say 'never'?  Yes, I said never.Do Bruisers need love?  Of course.  I have mine VP flagged with his mythical and love the class and I am one of the first to say he is low-speed, high-drag weight that will be jettisoned at the first sign of any useful class showing up.   Yes, I am a sad panda...but what can I say.  It is what it is.Basically, everyone needs to roll a different toon or betray if you ever have any aspirations of raiding high-end content.  That is of course, unless SOE decides to show us some love.    

[Vorham]

<p>^^</p><p>righ on, ive gotten the "can you sit this one out we need X class...oh but youll get some raidpoints for showing up" tells... and i was an old school member also... a slap in the face but when you think about it...</p><p>hope bruisers get some love, until then ill be playing my Inq which is apparently also [Removed for Content] in the high end</p><p>/shrug... i can pick em</p><p>I miss the glory days pre-DoF with my RGF proccing 2 or 3x on a hundred hand slap</p>

[Pnaxx]

I love my Bruiser, but because of this issue I just rolled a Troub. I thought that my Zerker, who is in his 50's, would be my raiding char, but alas, they are not really needed either. So, its off to the newb zones to level my Fae Troub just for the endgame fun!

[delbranson]

<p>I'm not a big raider personally.  I do get asked on raids occassionally, but to tell you the truth, I hear more often, "Wow, you're really good.  Would you like to join our raid guild and betray to monk?" *chuckle*  Really, if you're a bruiser, you're dps in raids that does a little less overall damage than scouts, brings less utility, but has greater independent survivability (control immunity, magic stoneskin, major self-heal, fd).  Those things aren't really needed if the raid is already well run and filled with more vitally beneficial classes.</p><p>Truth is, monk was the same way until they were altered to give raidwide casting time reductions.  At the same time, bruisers were altered to improve all taunts and detaunts raidwide.  This was done at a time also when they were expecting to make aggro more difficult (by reducing aggro transfers and hate gain modifier buffs through all the classes).  Aggro changes came to test though and everyone freaked out and complained, so it never happened to the extent they expected and the niche we were to fill never got opened up.</p><p>Bruisers being so capable and adaptable in heroic and solo situations, making us better at raiding can be tricky without making us overpowered - have to focus on how we improve others, less about ourselves.  Some ways that bruiser raiding role could be developed now might be:</p><p>1:  Improve dps of others.  Combat art bonus could be increased.  KO Combo could be applied groupwide or even raidwide, perhaps for a shorter time or with a set number of procs on others.</p><p>2:  Make us more able to support the survivability of others.  Fix the intercede achievement line to actually make it useful, allowing us to really contribute to the survivability of the main tank.. for instance, allowing multiple intercepts with one casting, giving significant damage absorption - kind of like Guardian's Tower of Stone but only usable on others.  Allow us to use Close Mind or Stone Deaf on others, so a vital class like the main tank or a healer could benefit from our superior caster defenses of control immunity or magic stoneskin.</p><p>Those are just my thoughts at first consideration.</p>

[Aull]

<p>I really like the thought of the intercede or sacrifice line being upgrated some. I know bruisers cannot heal others but what if with aa points that interecede would actually allow a ward/stoneskin to recipients that the bruiser places this on? </p><p>Ok lets say that a bruiser uses this ability on the main tank or healer, that they would receive a ward/stoneskin that is a third of the bruisers hit points. With the bruiser having 8500 hit points the bruiser would be warding the target approximately 2800 hp's for say 20 secs or if the ward is used up then the refresh of 15 seconds would begin.</p><p>I think this could be a great step in the right direction for us all. It isn't overpowering us dps wise, nor is it giving us something that monks have like a targetable heal or group fd, but it will allow us actually give something that could potentially save an encounter. This would be a unique ability and I feel that it would really help us gain some group/raid status again.</p><p>Any thoughts? Suggestions please.</p><p>Thanks</p>

[evilgamer]

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I really like the thought of the intercede or sacrifice line being upgrated some. I know bruisers cannot heal others but what if with aa points that interecede would actually allow a ward/stoneskin to recipients that the bruiser places this on? </p><p>Ok lets say that a bruiser uses this ability on the main tank or healer, that they would receive a ward/stoneskin that is a third of the bruisers hit points. With the bruiser having 8500 hit points the bruiser would be warding the target approximately 2800 hp's for say 20 secs or if the ward is used up then the refresh of 15 seconds would begin.</p><p>I think this could be a great step in the right direction for us all. It isn't overpowering us dps wise, nor is it giving us something that monks have like a targetable heal or group fd, but it will allow us actually give something that could potentially save an encounter. This would be a unique ability and I feel that it would really help us gain some group/raid status again.</p><p>Any thoughts? Suggestions please.</p><p>Thanks</p></blockquote><p>Actually I think this also a very good idea.</p>

[Solid]

<p>Can you betray to monk at any point? If so, where can i look up on how to betray to a monk?</p><p>Just started a bruiser and soloing is ease, but i rerolled from Warcraft to EQ2 for real raids. Just a little newbish on how betraying works since i started an Iksar Bruiser.</p><p>Any help would be great.</p>

[Pnaxx]

<cite>Solid@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Can you betray to monk at any point? If so, where can i look up on how to betray to a monk?</p><p>Just started a bruiser and soloing is ease, but i rerolled from Warcraft to EQ2 for real raids. Just a little newbish on how betraying works since i started an Iksar Bruiser.</p><p>Any help would be great.</p></blockquote><p><a href="http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Betrayal_Timeline" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/Betrayal_Timeline</a></p><p>That should help ye. I see your on Lucan...look me up...Psok.</p><p>I usually am on between 8-9 east time. maybe I will betray with you  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Azzazal]

<p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> I was lucky to return to an allaince raid set up this is after coming back with no AA and lvl 70..</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Arial;">After grinding out AA, grabbing every master,and getting alot of melle crit gear,I started raiding...</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Arial;">I get put into groups where i will have high melle crit and high haste buffs, so i DO parse close to my fellow monk raider, sometimes ahead and obviously sometimes below, Im not saying im t1 dps by any means, however allways in the top8.  Im not sure the epic/myth wep has really added to raiding as it's low hitting on CA's! I'd imagine more learned bruisers would be able to answer that ^^</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Arial;">I may not be "needed" and yes sometimes i will sit out for the good of the raid.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Arial;">So what does a bruiser do at a raid, well we can be and i am used for things like, offtanking, additional taunt to save healing/caster and the best thing so far DRAG!</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Arial;">Drag really can be a raid saver, hit stoneskin, divide and con' then drag the scared named back to MT. A great percentage of the time its a saver not bad for a "not needed" class</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Arial;">Tarheru bruiser</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Arial;">Hermit Monk</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Arial;">Azzazal the ranger.</span></p>

[Solid]

So when you betray do you lose your AA's?

[evilgamer]

<cite>Solid@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>So when you betray do you lose your AA's?</blockquote><p>AA's?  I dont think so.</p><p>I do think you lose your spells.</p><p>So if you have a master level ability, and you betray you loose that.</p>

[Pnaxx]

<cite>Azzazal wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"> I was lucky to return to an allaince raid set up this is after coming back with no AA and lvl 70..</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Arial;">After grinding out AA, grabbing every master,and getting alot of melle crit gear,I started raiding...</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Arial;">I get put into groups where i will have high melle crit and high haste buffs, so i DO parse close to my fellow monk raider, sometimes ahead and obviously sometimes below, Im not saying im t1 dps by any means, however allways in the top8.  Im not sure the epic/myth wep has really added to raiding as it's low hitting on CA's! I'd imagine more learned bruisers would be able to answer that ^^</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Arial;">I may not be "needed" and yes sometimes i will sit out for the good of the raid.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Arial;">So what does a bruiser do at a raid, well we can be and i am used for things like, offtanking, additional taunt to save healing/caster and the best thing so far DRAG!</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Arial;">Drag really can be a raid saver, hit stoneskin, divide and con' then drag the scared named back to MT. A great percentage of the time its a saver not bad for a "not needed" class</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Arial;">Tarheru bruiser</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Arial;">Hermit Monk</span></p><p><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Arial;">Azzazal the ranger.</span></p></blockquote><p>Question. I don't use Stoneskin much...even though I should, I just forget about it...but I thought it rooted and stuned you. How can you pull a mob to the tank in that condition? </p><p>But as far as you raiding, thats good to see you there. I know I would have a place for a while in my guilds raiding, but there will come a point where I won't be wanted. Thats why aI am rolloing the Troubador, we have none in our guild and very few on our server.</p>

[Pnaxx]

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Solid@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>So when you betray do you lose your AA's?</blockquote><p>AA's?  I dont think so.</p><p>I do think you lose your spells.</p><p>So if you have a master level ability, and you betray you loose that.</p></blockquote>Agreed. You will just need to realocate them to the others AA Tree over 70.

[Solid]

<p>Thanks for the quick replies! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I figured since leveling is pretty easy and fun for right now, i dont plan on betraying til 50ish. </p>

[Aull]

<p>Well waiting till that time to betray could be a good move. Good thing is at lvl 55 monks do get tsunami that is one of the best combat arts period, then as a bruiser at lvl 65 knockout combo comes into play so the trade off is so so. Knockout combo on everyday norrath mobs adds more damage to each combat art the bruiser has plus a stun which will usually leave the bruiser unscathed similar to how a monk with tsunami would be. The catch is that named mobs and epics will not be stunned by knock out combo so the bruiser gets hit alot or smoked dead where a monks tsunami will work for the monk even against the epic mobs. </p><p>Anyways which ever way you choose I am sure you will be happy. Both are great classes but if you are wishing to raid I would just say betray to a monk once you get to  lvl 80 or before. I am not trying to be negative about the bruisers on the whole raid issue here about them not being as welcome as monks, but I am just stating what I witness when I am in game.</p><p>Anyways just mainly have fun with what you have.</p><p>Thanks</p>

[Azzazal]

<p>Shoudl've been stone deaf sorry for mislead, Stoneskin i use after i have postioned the mob, in the vain hope that the tank gets it orf me ^^. If he cant then im dead, lets face it when you're all out on DPS AA you are indeed easy meat for most nameds.</p>

[Senr]

The main advantage of the monk over bruiser in raids is Tsunami. With it and Peel, monks can pull aggro anytime and live through it, at least til Tsunami wears off. Bruiser can pull aggro instantly with Divide and Conquer, but they are likely to die before the forced aggro ends. Even in defensive, with rock skin and resistant spirit up, Venril Sathir takes me down in 2 hits.Everything else is at least close to balanced. Sure, maybe I'd prefer being rooted to damaged over time for our temporary mitigation buff. Sure, raid-wide haste (and spell casting haste) is better than +CA damage and taunt effectiveness (with the caps as they are). But Sonic Fist versus Tsunami is just the worst trade-off I can imagine. Sonic Fist which is useful next to never versus Tsunami which can be useful any fight a monk is tanking.

[Aull]

<cite>Senr wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: small;color: #00cc00;">The main advantage of the monk over bruiser in raids is Tsunami</span>. With it and Peel, monks can pull aggro anytime and live through it, at least til Tsunami wears off. Bruiser can pull aggro instantly with Divide and Conquer, but they are likely to die before the forced aggro ends. Even in defensive, with rock skin and resistant spirit up, Venril Sathir takes me down in 2 hits.Everything else is at least close to balanced. Sure, maybe I'd prefer being rooted to damaged over time for our temporary mitigation buff. Sure, raid-wide haste (and spell casting haste) is better than +CA damage and taunt effectiveness (with the caps as they are). But Sonic Fist versus Tsunami is just the worst trade-off I can imagine. Sonic Fist which is useful next to never versus Tsunami which can be useful any fight a monk is tanking.</blockquote>This is true. Monks also have group fd, targetable heal (that can save a/some fights), the best solid fighter dps, and of course the peel/tsunmai combo. Very nice class to have.

[Greavous]

<p>Haha omg what a bunch of moaning old ninnys.</p><p>What raid wouldn't benefit greatly by having a well played bruiser in their ranks.</p><p>We out dps all the other fighters and a lot of the scouts.</p><p>No one can pick up a mob like a bruiser. Even if a monk has thrown peel on em a bruiser just takes it with divide n conquer like its nothing</p><p>Not sure why your getting destroyed when u do pick up the mob. Maybe your healers don't like to heal through the mob or something.</p><p>Now with our 10 second superman buff from our mythical we just take the mob and hold till the less dps minded meat shield gets sorted enough to grab it back.</p><p>If the mobs not behaving, a simple dragging of his [Removed for Content] fixes the most disobedient.</p><p>To be honest I think that most raid leaders make their decisions on Bruisers by the few they have had to put up with. Most of them moan about how hard done by they are as a class and just try and dps in raid. </p><p>If that's all you bring then yes you don't belong in raid.</p><p>A bruiser must be played with speed. Good decision making and educated tactics are a must. As a Bruiser you never get to cruise in a raid. U can't just sit back and throw a few CA's. A Bruiser is watching the MT all the time. Watching the buffs that is gonna be effecting the tank and planning for the ah [Removed for Content] situation miles before it happens. </p><p>If your not intercepting on the pull, making sure Altruism is always on the MT, keeping your avoidance on him, and switching back and forwards from dps to tank stance continually when ever the situation changes then playing a raiding Bruiser isn't for you. </p>IF YOU ARN'T A PROACTIVE PLAYER, DON'T ROLL A BRUISER TO RAID

[heelena]

AMEN!if u can't play a bruiser, then a monk isnt the char for you either!