What do Raiding SKs Need? [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Darkc

04-16-2008, 01:58 PM

I've seen some great feed back so far... my goal is to get a reasonable list and maybe replace the first post and get this stickied like how the Coercer thread was. Issues so far...DPS: SK as a class should be able to do more damage than Guardians and be about par with Berserkers, since we sacrifice "defensive" type abilites for self healing and encounter / blue AoE Spell damage. Suggestions<ul><li>Relentless Hunger and Unholy Arms to proc off all attacks, not just melee</li><li>Focus Mod: We have spells interrupted too often</li><li>Increase Base CA / Spell Damage and/or Add Crusader only items that are reasonably attainable with an increase. </li><li>Reduction of the Harm Touch Recast </li><li>Harm Touch: Add a 5% chance to inflict 40% Damage to a Heroic or 30k to an Epic</li><li>Decrease recast on some of our fast "nukes" and Melee "Pariah Brand" line and/or up the damage to compensate for its slow recast. </li><li>Add a Bonus for using 2h Weapons - I like the idea of it being linked to Offensive Stance... Be it extra Hit Rate, Double Attack, Haste, +DPS mod, etc. </li><li>Pet - Make it permanent or up it's hit rate vs raid mobs + survivability. Maybe add an AoE nuke if it dies? </li><li>Offensive Stance - Our Primary DPS stats are INT and STR - it should have both. </li><li>Offensive Stance - Add more Offensive stats (+DA, +DPS, +Spell DA, +DPS, +Riposte, etc)</li><li>Defensive Stance - Not sure what can be done about this to make a real difference. Part of the problem is that it doesn't do enough defensively for us, so maybe add some Shield %Block... but at the same time we lack the DPS to hold aggro while in Defensive since our DPS IS our aggro. Maybe add some kind of +hate position proc? Crusaders can get some sort of "Medium" stance like Brawlers do so we can save Defensive for only absolute emergencies. </li><li>Defensive Stance - Add Riposte to the Defensive Stance</li><li>AA line to get added Double Attack - Maybe linked to using 2h'ers... kind of like how Warriors get 60% DA if they use 1h / Shield. </li><li>Take the "If Under 50%" restriction from our Focus AA Buff</li></ul>EQ1 Lines that can be helpful if brought back -<ul><li>Spear line: Having a High Damage, quick cast, long recast Nuke (like 1 min recast) would be great for both a DPS boost and an added Aggro building tool.</li><li>Torrent Line: In EQ1 it was +Attack, so I guess +DPS would be the equivelant. Debuffs the mob and adds the bonus to the group</li><li>Zevfeer's Bite: Fast Nuke that returns Health and Power to group.</li><li>Bond of Death: Lifetap DoT. Can use a fixed number or a percentage.</li></ul>Utility: While on a raid, SKs will very rarely be the MT... thus we need to be able to provide benefits to group / raid members for be around and not tanking. Suggestions<ul><li>Raid wide Death March - extra DPS and Immunities can be a great tool if well timed</li><li>Death March Improvements - Ability to use while stunned / stifled / dazed to break Control effects.</li><li>Death March Improvements - Cause a raidwide kill to trigger "on the march", not just a group member</li><li>Death March Improvements - "On the March" buff grows in strength with mob type (solo, heroic, epic, etc.)</li><li>Lucan Leadership - Change +spell damage to 6% Base Damage. </li><li>Lucan Leadership - Change +sta to +Int... or just add +Int. </li><li>Lucan Leadership - Add the +Str back to it</li><li>Relentless Hunger - Procs off all Attacks </li><li>Debuffs - Add Magic + Poision to our Encounter Debuff (though not opposed to all spell types) </li><li>Debuffs - Despoiling Mist... a) fix it to do what the description says b) Reduce the cast time / recast... great debuff, but we waste alot of time casting it (unless we cast during Death March) and it gets resisted a lot, so then we get to recast it again or just skip it. Should be on the same cast / recast timer as the Templar Physical Mitigation Debuff. </li><li>Our Wis AA Line - make the effects stronger, like upping everything to 5% and adding Recast + SPELL DA </li><li>Group Lifetaps - With all the Bloodthirsty Chokers around now, maybe expanding our +Heal AAs to include Group. </li><li>Cures - A Group Noxius Cure would be in line with our "class" & extremely helpful on quite a few fights.</li><li>Siphon Hate - returns are too low... should be bumped up. </li><li>Mana Siege - Returns are too small compared to our power consumption. Plus scale up a bit better or change the spell to be a proc / tap / etc.</li><li>Ability to stop raid mobs from self healing if a raid member dies for a limited time</li><li>Leadership Buffs - Fighter buffs that are group only and are POWERFUL enough to justify having them in a specialized group as opposed to another duplicate class. </li></ul>AAs: Some of our AAs are outdated, especially the WIS Line. <ul><li>Nef Caress AA - Should increase Damage done as well as taunt</li><li>Wis Line - Increase Gains, add stats that help a Crusader (DA, Block%, Riposte, Spell DA, etc)</li><li>Agi Line - Remove Horse Mount Restriction, add bonus for single target (AoE Auto attack + DA for example)</li></ul>Defensive: To be fair, with our AA Lines + 80 AT I feel our ability to OT and take on multiple encounters is pretty good. As mentioned, our Defensive stance can be a little better but it's more of a cushion than a necessity. Yes, we have to be pretty well equiped ... but that goes for every other fighter as well. I can add more if postedSuggestions:<ul><li>Defensive Stance - Needs more "Avoidance" type stats... maybe +Agi, +Block, etc. </li><li>Lifetaps that turns into wards sounds like a great idea, not sure how it would work out coding wise... An ability that acts like "roll over minutes" and maybe turns 2k - 3k of your lifetaping at full health into a ward would be great though.</li><li>Increase the strength of lifetap Heals to match the damage inflicted. </li><li>Heal Crits - They should effect healing AFTER our spell crits. Give us some use for it.</li><li>+Heal - Many Crusader items have +Heal, so wouldn't it be fair if it affected our lifetaps healing portion and scaled up with Crits? </li></ul>Raid Encounters: Not just an SK problem, other fighters are suffering due to this as well. Berserkers, SKs, Paladins all excel in Multiple Encounters and in RoK those are few. Now when we speak of "Multiple" think LoA, MMiS, 5 link in TNT, etc. Kor-sha has a couple of 2 mob encounters which can easily be picked up by the 2nd Raid Guardian. We need some 3+ linked trash added to zones. Yes, it makes killing trash harder... but smart raids will adjust. Suggestions:<ul><li>More 3+ Link Trash and named encounters. </li><li>Large Clusters of Heroic mobs that need to be Blue AoE'd down</li></ul>Itemization: Too many good "Fighter" items that have the defensive stats needed to tank effectively, lack stats to increase our DPS / power pool / and aggro abilities. Suggestions:<ul><li>If a fighter item has +Melee, add +Spell Crit</li><li>If a fighter item has +CA, add +Spell damage</li><li>More Focus Mods to "Crusader" Type items</li><li>Add more INT to Fighter items!</li><li>We need a few GOOD Crusader ONLY items in reasonably attainable areas (t1 - t2). Items that add 8+ Double Attack, Base Damage increasers, +DPS Mods, 100+ Int, 100+ agi, Ward Procs, etc.</li></ul>SK Mythical: While not owning it personally, here's some feedback from high-end raiding SKs on the Mythical... - It should have at leat one defensive Stat like +parry or +defense as a weapon made for tanking.- The extra hate should be permanent with no need to be lucky that it procs in the right moment.- The clicky works fine but i would like to see that it bind the mob for the full 8 secondsAll I've seen in this post so far. Remember, this is about "Raiding" SKs... so keep the suggestions in that context.

Bruener

04-16-2008, 06:48 PM

Well, to me there are a few different angles that you could look at this, and depending on what angle you are looking from there would be different types of suggestions that could be made. For example, should we be looking at it from an OT perspective, looking at it from a utility type persepective, from a MT type of perspective, or from a strict DPS type of perspective.Honestly, imo what I would really like to see is an increase to the SK as utility and a secondary type of OT. One way I can see the dev's helping us with this type of role is giving us more group/raid utility. I know some SK's have been pushing for a revamp of the Wis line to add a certain amount of DA to each group member. Perhaps a better change would be adding a certain % of spell DA instead...fitting us nicely into the mage type group where we actually see a little more benefit to ourselves. Something like 15% spell DA imo would be extremely nice to see since it is a unique type of buff that no other class has, and would be highly sought after by mages. This to me would be a very nice roll for SK's and leaves the primary OT position open to a Pally or Zerk if they got some tweaks as well.From the OT perspective....DPS in defensive needs a huge boost. When I switch to full tank mode in defensive stance my DPS is extremely [Removed for Content]. Yes, our hate on our mythical does create some nice raw hate, but when our oh [Removed for Content] are done it is hard as hell to get a mobs attention.No matter what SOE decides to do, what they need to do is pick a niche that they want SK's to fill on a raid, and than make us the best at that niche so there is no discussion on whether bringing that extra dps is better than bringing the SK, especially since fighter spots on raids are so limited atm.

Nakash

04-17-2008, 08:25 AM

Topic Crusader>Paladin> >Shadowknight>Soloplay >Grpplay >Raid>T8 Endgame >PVE< 1. Spell Damage What SK really would need is a boost on their spells base damage which also means more dps. SK Spells don't do high damage so if they scaled by % over the tiers they havent increased much, while high damage attacks of other classes scaling % wise has gone up dramatical. Adittional dots have been always subpar to high damage attacks for aggro. +spelldamage is not a really a fix here cause it caps on 50% of the orginal damage of the spell wich is low as already said. So base Damage is what here is needed to be raised. SK once did their most part of damage via their spells, that was what made them different. These times are gone. The autoattack part is much higher now in Endgame then the spelldamage. Wich is wrong way for SK imho. If you go all out and burning much power you do less damage then if you would just autoattack with a good weapon for example (Supple Dogwood Staff). The probelm is that you get less influence on what you are doing with your damage wich means less controll. One of the SKs advantages was that he had direkt controll off aggro via his spells, while Autoattack depends on goodbuff Situation and luck that youre procs go off in the right moment. So SK should do main part of his damage via his spells and not through autoattack, wich he justs impersonates from other classes and cant be that good in it like they are. 2. The "good" old Harmtouch. Is not doing anything in the current situation. Sure the recast has been lowered by some items and and recast reducers. But it only lowered the recast of a spell you cant rely on that it has a effect. Even in combination with Deathmarch it builds not enough aggro to be used as a emergency taunt. (wich is no wonder if you do 10-14k and the ranger next to you does the same on autoattack) To make it usefull again it would be nessary to bring it damage back to the point where the name death touch fits. I would think depending on Situation 15-50k Hit. And if it is a must for that they can up the timer. But i would have to ask if it is needed as long there are other fighter classes that have an ability that does up to 35k on an about 3 minute timer (Bruiser). So we lost one Rescue Taunt in Rok and get a new one on our mythical weapon. I wouldnt call that a progress. 3. AA Line for Two-Handed Swords. Even if i think spells should be our Focus i have to agree that there should be an AA Skill or Line for Two Handers as an option. Crusaders are the only class who really uses Two Handers. So if not a damage bonus it would be nice to give them more defense/parry/block/riposte or maybe some immunitys against Stun stiffel while wielding a Two hander. "Or maybe let us use a shield while using a Two Hander, but that would be as absurd as using a big fat Tower shield while performing an all out attack in Full Defense..." jk 4. Life taps Life taps are subpar to the amount of Damage that can be avoided by just Blocking or avoiding Damage. Maybe it should be allowed to have an pool of excessive drawn life energie that function like a ward. Could also be kind of drawning spirit that allowing more Lifeforce to be stored for every raid member so it would not be a balance problem against solo or grpplay with still giving them a benefit of it. Reaver was a nice thing but i can understand that it is difficult to handle to make it usefull in raid but not be much better in Solo our grp play. But i dont think it was overpowered the way it came in first, and i think it was more that it was changed to balance it against the other AA abilitys. 5. The SK Epic. First of all the Epics of fighters have huge differences in their power. To spoke it out the guard Epic is far beyond and imbalanced imho. Has just to be stated befor we talk about creative things based on an level not like the guard epic As many already stated the Stats on the weapon could use some tweak. For example Wis could be left of for more Int. Shield block or at least some more Parry would be nice. Dosnt need to have the same amount like warriors get, but this is primary our tanking weapon and it would fit. Uping the damage of the weapon a bit would be nice but there we are again in the meele damage part so i would more love to see that it gets a huge damage Proc thats procs on spellcast and melee. The clicky is a fine thing to use good for OT and surviving switches. The hate gain beeing a proc makes it less controllable. Being permanent and bit lesser would be better imho. Should be still above 200% on the mythic. But would make it easier to build aggro over time. Getting us aggro with "tricks" like this can only be a plus to the aggro we should generate through damage btw. Cause we where once concepted as DPS tanks and are less deffensive for this. 6. Stances Offstance: Giving the offstance a bonus to two handed weapons would be also a good solution so that we have an advantage for only being able to use two hander. Would be a mucher better solution then allowing us to dual wield. Defstance: One problem with Defstance in the momentan is that you cant generate enough Hate in it, this should be fixed with the things described above.I can see that a Defstance should not be there to make damage. But it could maybe get some kind of Hate bonus. The second and greater problem is that it should get rid off that totally useless WIS on it. If you dont want replace it with INT wich i can understand then replace the WIS with AGI wich would make it actually a Defstance for us.

CHIMPNOODLE.

04-18-2008, 01:40 PM

I'd like to see more multi-mob encounters (trash as well as named), a couple melee resistant multi-mob bosses would be phenomenal hehe (or even singles...just with some melee resistances at least....Martial Adviser style).Some fearing, and more mem-wiping/dumping mobs would be nice too. More dammage shield mobs.For the Epic, I'd like to see more Raw health added to it, as well as some Block or Riposte (or both! hehe).I'd like to see HT's timer reduced. 5 minute recast would be decent.Basically, I'd like to see more encounters that cater to our strenghts.

Case21

04-18-2008, 03:51 PM

Relentless Hunger and Unholy Arms need to proc on Spell attacks, as well as Melee/Ranged Attacks.

Razlath

04-18-2008, 04:40 PM

I think a more fundamental question needs to be asked and decided first. Whether this is decided by the devs or the community I don't know. Obviously in the end the devs decide it, but maybe they are just waiting for us to decide first.That question is What Role are Raiding SKs supposed to fill?Once you know the answer to that question you can answer the one asked in the subject of this post, but until it is answered you are going to get way too many different answers to make a consensus out of. Also, don't be mislead, once an official answer to that question comes out there will be some really angry people. This will at least be mitigated by us having a role vs the no role now, but it proably still won't be pretty.My personal vote would be the best OT ever. I would like to see more survival skills and abilities. I want the raid to finish with the MT mob and turn on the one I am on and go.. what the hell? is the SK is still up? This wouldn't be about mitigation, or avoidance, I don't want to see us become guardians. But surviveability is only partly about that. Surviveability is greatly determined by what can you do about the damage that got through? Lets face it, mobs are designed to hit the players. There is only so much we can do to stop that. When you are surviving in an offtank mode you are often receiving little to no healing to counter what gets through your defense. Better life taps, more of them, wards as well as reactives, whatever it takes. Set up the cast times and durations so that when in this mode the SK isn't producing much DPS, that is fine. I don't want to kill the mob I am facing I want to survive it. Aggro wouldn't be as important either, as we wouldn't have as much competition for it (so our current level would be fine). It seems like the devs started down this road with the crusaders but got distracted. We are almost there, but not quite.Maybe many "uber" raids still wouldn't use us. I don't really care as long as we have a use to someone who looks beyond the min-max perfect world approach. And I want that whisper in the back of the raid leaders head, man we could have done it if we had an SK here to handle that add instead of the 8th bard.Idealistic? Yes, but that is what I would like to see.

Darkc

04-18-2008, 04:52 PM

kickmyd0g

04-19-2008, 10:00 AM

Death March raid wide is a must.Also, Lucan's Leadership should be changed from a STA +spell damage buff to a INT +spell damage buff. This would put us on a definate mage knight path.Obviously Death Touch needs to have it's timer reduced or it's damage increasedDefensive stance needs to also give us a hate gain as we lose so much DPSThe base damage of two hander weapons need to be increased or increase our AA melee crit to equal the spell crits or give us a +DA AA ability.There is also the option to increase reaver to do what it was doing at conception instead of the nerf version that we have nowOur epic is to be quite frank a joke, I hold aggro better using the Nasthar Short Sword and I would like to meet the joker who thought it would be funny to have Phara dar as the last mob needed in our mythical. It's hard enough finding a spot on a raid as an SK let along finding a spot to kill that.It would also be respectfull for a dev to at least post that the issues of the SK community have been recognised. You can even lock the thread so we don't go into flame mode.

Xanoth

04-19-2008, 02:56 PM

The main problems with the SK on the whole aren't that anything we've been given is bad, or even that broken (although some things are).But that very little scales all that well compared with what other classes are given.Solo, Heroic, Epic... our life taps still do the same thing, for the same values. Change them to return a flat % of damage done. In a raid you're more buffed, just like everyone else. This is for both reaver and regular life tap abilities (yes I am aware that they are effected by +damage. but they go off the base value of what damage the spell CAN do, not what it actually hits for).Death march has a multitude of problems.Firstly "on the march" doesn't trigger while stunned/stifled. This should be changed, as even if focus kicks in "on the march" wont happen. also if your dot's kill a mob, again if you are stifled or stunned "on the march" will not trigger. this is a bug that's well know, reported and still not fixed. for a buff that grants CC immunity to not work when you are under CC effects I just absurd.Death march again... It's almost useless in a raid environment to work as intended. in a regular heroic/group environment you can and do pull multiple mobs, these die quite fast and multiple "on the march" effects will trigger per use of death march. on a raid you get 10s of "on the march" per cast. even on raids with adds, more often than not the kill shot is attributed to another group and the buff doesn't proc. so again, our abilities don't stand up well in a raid environment, and need resolving. Either make it raid wide (which also fixes the proc issue), or make the type of mob that triggered "on the march" alter what effect is given and it's duration (so if you kill a solo mob you get a weak buff, if you kill a heroic mob you get a regular buff, if you kill an epic mob you get a very strong buff). but at the very least fix it to proc properly in a raid environment.Siphon Hate: Values are too low, increase to around 5% at least. Trakanon shield gives 10% from all group members, half that vlue would be a start for us. 3% is way too low.Fix all our proc buffs to work on any successful attack, i'm covering stf others have said already, so i'll leave it there.

Darkc

04-21-2008, 01:54 PM

Replaced the original post with what I've seen so far posted. Keep them coming.

Giral

04-21-2008, 02:49 PM

Defensive stance should have a hate increase of "any damage the SK does in Defensive stance will give 2 points hate for every 1 point of damage" since our Dps is nearly cut in half in defensive stance. our Defensive stance needs more kick, changing wisdom to Agil is good start,but needs more in the ways of DEFense . posibly 10% of all incoming damage will be aborbed into the sk, and 5% of that damage will be spilt to give the sk a return of 1/2 to health and 1/2 to power . general idea but Sk's need something to Lessen or Aborb the Heavy hits , say you get hit for 20 K damage , 2 k of that is aborbed so you only get hit for 18k dmg damage, and that 2k is returned to the sk as 1k health and 1k power . it works out nicely for Heavy damage , for minor damage it would give you almost NO health or power 5k nuke you would get what 250 health ? ( my math sucks so some one who is better with math could figure out the exact details so it would be great against Heavy Damage spikes where SK'S have the most issue's and be unoticable against less damageDeath march seriously needs to Proc from any member in a raid getting the killing blow. and always needs to proc when its active, it should never not proc when its active Single target DPS needs to be increase, many ways this can be achieved Personaly i would like 1 LARGE Direct damage Out of Encounter NUKE, something that does 15+ K damage to all mobs in the area, dont care if its on a 15 minute recast, but since our Death Touch is very Weak, we should get a AE Death Touch to go along with it , since Most of our AE's are DOTS , and we use Tuant over time, we realy dont have any Snap agro tools on multiple mobs besides DM, and DM is unreliable in ROK, we need One AE Insta Snap agro tool besides DM, Paladins have 8 AE's + Amends for a Warlock , compared to our AE Dots and Deathmarch who in there right mind would pick an SK over a Paladin for OT ? SK's Need One Large Out of Encounter NUKE , to establish Instant High damage Hate on Mobs , then our Dots can kick in and then Deathmarch could be used to Grab any mobs back if any get lost. ---------------------------------------Area-of-Effect Damage/Abilities---------------------------------------Sickening Cirlce LineA melee attack that strikes nearby enemies surrounding the shadowknight, and slowly deals disease damage over time to them.Sickening Circle (7) -> Sickening Decay (21) -> Swarming Spirits (35) -> Death Cloud (49) -> Death Circle (63) -> Crimson Circle (75)Cruel Aura LineDeals disease damage over time to nearby enemies surrounding the shadowknightCruel Aura (14) -> Cruel Intent (2<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> -> Unending Pain (42) -> Unending Agony (56) -> Unending Misery (70) -> Painful Aura (80)Doom Judgment LineInflicts damage to enemies near the crusader. Any enemies struck will lose any of their beneficial arcane and noxious based spell effects.Doom Judgment (35) -> Doom Aura (53) -> Doom Rays (71)Tap Veins LineSiphons the health of all nearby enemies, returning a portion of all health siphoned as health replenishment for the shadowknight.Tap Veins (55) -> Tap Arteries (74)(looks like we a bit short in the AE department) Sickening circle line and Doom Judgement line do minimal upfront damage, Tap viens is our only AE that does Nice Ae damage BUT its our Major lifetap and should be saved for if your close to death ,wasting it for Just dps for agro could be the differance of success and a wipe. for an AE Tank class we should have atleast 1 Huge AE instant damage attack (out of encounter) to put a real Hurting on mobs/give Large upfront Hate. we cant Amend a warlock so we need to be doing our own Large upfront damage on multiple mobs. death march only works if you already have done damage to mobs(its a buff) if you cast it as soon as Adds spawn it does nothing to get you agro at all . and in rok it is undependable to get you agro even after you have all your ae damage and dots ticking., compared to an amended warlock Paladin>Sk no way Sk can generate anywhere near the Damage of a Warlock(and is the one class we have the most trouble holding Ae agro against warlock damage > Sk ae/agro)

DMIstar

04-21-2008, 07:22 PM

Heres a compilation that i have come up with...<ul><li>Attribute Reitemization: STR/STA/INT These should be our focal points in tanking, We should be balanced to this.. Though this stems onto our lifetaps being much lesser then actuall avoidence for upkeep... As well as Either STR or INT should be a base DMG attribute gain. While the other stat is a dmg gain booster.. As it is now STR/INT is clearly seen by the game as one stat makeing 1400str/int of an SK Equal to 700 of a guards str.</li><li>Lifetaps should be reviewed, if we are to lean towards Lifetaps and heals to replace avoidence then these should visually reflect that. especialy in parsings. This maybe a hint to other statement in makeing INT give off dmg to all things as a base.. aka weapon/ca/spells/lifetaps gain with int gains first then STR second.. That way if an SK goes AGI route thier lifetaps will scale down as our avoidence goes up. Creating balance</li><li>Avoidence, Needs to be addressed. One way or another, atleast we should be told the state on this gain for SK's.</li></ul>These are the major issues I see going. If we clear alot of this up, we would see much better results in the class and the class will be more controled. As is on the state of this class, everything is just loose overall. I'm Going from BS dps from a tanking point to amazing Damage output while speced soley on STR/INT and the funny thing is My sta is not hurting at all with DPS setup.. Likewise, on the Tanking end my Spell dmg is well past 500 still. The differences between the two states is just to wide. and patching one side is impossible without capping the other off.. And capping only means we will be worthless in the next expansion or so ;/. I also agree that some things can be revised and adjusted as well.<ul><li>Casting While Moveing .. We are a casting tank.. we sacrifice the bigger spells that necros gain over us for more quick/precise and more melee oriented spells.. It would help us alot if we can move while casting.. Our DPS Drops a ton while dealing with knockbacks and the like as it is. We are balanced as an upclose dmg class. WE need both melee and spells operable all the time and its not game disbalanceing to allow us to move while casting.</li><li>Our buffs Unholy arms/ Everlasting hunger need to have spell attacks included. As well as Lifetap rate adjusted to be suitable. </li><li>Pet.. I liked the original thinking on this line.. Cast pet, it stays until mob casted on Dies... Now its a 30second Killable dot.. Theres no uniqueness to this spell for it to have the excessive casting time alotted to it.. And its completely avoidable spell by the mob vs other dots. Only other direction is to have a perma pet. But I don't believe that is needed for the class.</li><li>Defensive Stance to Give INT or STR instead.. We are a DPS tank. WIS right now has no bearing to us. Changeing up Defensive Stance over to INT or STR would help a ton for our problems with it.</li><li>Lucans Leadership, I never did find out why the STR was removed from this spell.</li><li>HT which is now Called Death Touch... The Timer should remain or maybe even be scaled up.. But surely the Damage on this needs to be comparable to other classes one shotters. As it stands "Death" Touch couldnt kill a lvl 70 bunny.</li><li>our DoTs and DD have to be looked into respectfully, though if attributes are changed these need to be adjusted to the new changes obviously. </li></ul>At the moment this is what i have come up with. will add more if i see anything to point out.

Jurmoon

04-22-2008, 05:54 AM

It would help tremendously to know exactly what the role of a shadowknight is supposed to be. What do we as shadowknights view that role as? What does SOE view that role as? Are we supposed to be offtanks? Offtanks need snap aggro and strong aggro retention. SK's are severly lacking in aggro generation and retention. Offtanks need similar damage avoidance and hit points to main tanks. We are way down the list in that category too. Are we supposed to be mages in plate, cranking out the dps? We need our damage upgraded, based on a single attribute (INT) and our abilities to be spells (spell damage). Death touch needs to actually do something.Are we supposed to be a utility tank? Our utilities are lacking. Death march has limited value in a raid as it affects only one group and lasts only 10 seconds. Feign death is nice, but squishies with aggro will typically be dead before the cast. The "raid buff" we received is a joke. I don't blame guilds for excluding the class from raids. There is absolutely nothing SK's can do that another class can't do better, and honestly, its a waste of a slot.

CHIMPNOODLE.

04-22-2008, 10:54 AM

To improve the raiding SK, I think there are some tools that could use tweaking for sure (some great suggestions throughout this thread actually), but we are definitely well setup for tanking roles. SKs have the best array of snap aggro tools available (imo), as well as great pinch surviveability tools. With our mix of buffs/debuffs/dammage and tanking abilities I feel we are already the best choice for offtank, and can handle the MT slot without issue. I'm always looking for some more dammage reduction/absorption abilities though, so that's what I'm really hoping for the most.As far as "utility tank" or DPS tank....there is not much that a "tank" specc'd SK doesn't have that that an SK trying to lean the other way does. Some gear swaps make a nice diff, but it is not as easy to swap between "optimized" tank and DPS roles on the fly. There's a spot for improvement right there. With most all gear being no longer swappable in combat....stances or other buffs are the obvious first thing to look at. Increasing dammage or raw hate, adding block, and swapping WIS for AGI on defensive would be very nice for me hehe <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />We can put out some decent dammage, but its not top"tier" by any means, even when running full DPS "mode". Also, based on most of the changes that our class has gone through over time, it always seems to lean toward surviveability and aggro over pure dammage gains (which is fine by me). Seems like we have slowly been always pushed in the tanking direction. That's how I've always seen our role, so I'm at least happy with that.I've always been a tanking SK, and its been quite a nice string of improvements over time as far as that goes. The main raid issue is keeping "pace" with some of the other classes' gains, or getting something really "stand apart-ish" so that more SKs get as close to equal opportunities as any tank class. Right now, there are not many SKs that have prominent roles in strong raid forces, so appropriate boosts or Niche abilities should be added/strenghtened. Some future content encounters that cater to our strenghts would also go a long way, but that doesn't change anything right now. That's why I'd like to see some of the tweaks above get shoved into a LU sometime soon <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Phank

04-22-2008, 11:58 AM

To make it easy for SOE (if they read this thread), my short list of desperately needed changes to make the class viable on raids:1. Raid-wide Deathmarch2. Death Touch needs to be improved. It's very name suggests that it should bring Death to its target. As our class defining skill, it's a flea's fart in a hurricane compared to other classes defining skills. Decapitate, Devestation Fist, Fission, Lifeburn, etc. DT needs to hit for a minimum and also have an AA focus to increase it's damage.3. Wisdom line for Crusaders is just plain awful. The end ability, while nifty back in KoS, does not help the group whatsoever these days. And the DPS of the Shadowknight suffers tremendously when using the Wisdom line. Guardians and Berserkers gets awesome AA lines to reach near 100% Double-Attack. We get an AA line that hardly brings any return to the group.Bottom line, the Shadowknight class is not needed and hardly wanted on Raid. Thankfully there are still some passionate and skilled players playing the class which offset the poor design. I challenge Sony to actually post the numbers of players on Raid representing this class. I'm sure it's the lowest of all classes. I can't think of another class which gets recruited less than the Shadowknight -- maybe Bruisers since the Monk in RoK outshines its counterpart.

Darkc

04-22-2008, 12:02 PM

I have to agree to Chimp on this one, from an OT perspective we do quite well. While not as effective as we'd like, our given tools get the job done when needed (if used properly). This really falls in the realm of the "universal" OT problem. Most raids only need 1 Plate OT and Paladin / Berserker have the better skill set for that role on paper. Many raid leaders don't understand the SK class well enough or have seen a well played SK to make an educated decision of putting an SK in the OT role. It took me rolling an SK and playing one on raids to actually understand what they bring to the table. Do most raid leaders know that SKs have the biggest Wis Debuff in the game? Do they know we can debuff Phyical by 2k+ much longer than Dispatch (and encounter wide)? Do they know how effective Death March can be to both boost Caster DPS, block an AoE control effect so a healer can cure other groups, plow through multiple add encounters, etc.? Do even people that play SKs know how they can contribute on raids? SKs might not be in "great demand", but they're found in some of the best raid guilds in the game. Guilds that min / max to be the best, and would tell that person to re-roll if they were a great player playing a truly useless class... yet they're still there...That's why I recommended changes that would be "flambouant"... Raid wide Death March - Raid leaders could easily see the benefits in that. Spell damage to +Base Damage... min / max casters would be all over SKs for a raid, much like they're all over Monks for the +cast speed buff. Stuff to get us IN the raids, then we show them what else we can do.

Darkc

04-25-2008, 11:53 AM

Adding: Itemization to list Any more ideas?

Phank

04-25-2008, 12:11 PM

Itemization is the last of our problems. Although seeing Shadowknight on the Star of Malice (aITEM 2007998423 1561213652:Star of Malice/a) made me spit out my drink at the time!Our major weakness lies with lack of necessity. Period. Deathmarch being group only places us in the mage group, if we are on raids at all. Our AA builds do nothing to help our melee dps like other Fighters abilities. In fact, a SK that does not go down the STR and INT line is truly putting themself behind the 8 ball. In Kunark, the AGI line does nothing to increase melee dps. The STA line is nice for the melee crits, but everyone knows DA>Crit. The Wisdom line is used by less than 1% of the player population I'm guessing. The fact that we have to use other class buffs, potions and gear to hit 30% DA when the other guys are hitting 100% is sick and wrong.Are we a plate fighter or are we battle-mage? If we are a mage class then give us Double Spell Attack! You can't keep us in the middle forever. Pick one design and go with it. Give us a strength for god's sake not a bunch of weaknesses.

TheSpin

04-25-2008, 12:32 PM

<cite>Phank wrote:</cite><blockquote>Itemization is the last of our problems. Although seeing Shadowknight on the Star of Malice (aITEM 2007998423 1561213652:Star of Malice/a) made me spit out my drink at the time!Our major weakness lies with lack of necessity. Period. Deathmarch being group only places us in the mage group, if we are on raids at all. Our AA builds do nothing to help our melee dps like other Fighters abilities. In fact, a SK that does not go down the STR and INT line is truly putting themself behind the 8 ball. In Kunark, the AGI line does nothing to increase melee dps. The STA line is nice for the melee crits, but everyone knows DA>Crit. The Wisdom line is used by less than 1% of the player population I'm guessing. The fact that we have to use other class buffs, potions and gear to hit 30% DA when the other guys are hitting 100% is sick and wrong.Are we a plate fighter or are we battle-mage? If we are a mage class then give us Double Spell Attack! You can't keep us in the middle forever. Pick one design and go with it. Give us a strength for god's sake not a bunch of weaknesses.</blockquote>I think itemization and AA are the two major issues. AA needs to provide both better avoidence and better dps. Double attack and even double spell attacks are the two best ideas I've seen for dps so far.Gear also needs some real adjusting because SK has to worry about 2 stats for dps rather than 1, and needs to boost both spell and combat art damage as well as keep avoidence up.

DMIstar

04-25-2008, 01:06 PM

we have more then one raid benefial items to us already..Blessings <May need some gains.. Though is a very good spell in our equipment., Cast times on this spell is huge in retrospect.>Armorment <This a good spell... The siphon version. I was mad when they nerfed it to fighter, which severely limited its use... As is i think is balanced> evasion < Our only Parry giveing spell... I think this finally needs an upgrade, to show that it gives more use.. or just scrap it for a better direction... ATM its rarely used or seen.>Intercede < Basic between all fighters>Mist <Currently Nerfed> Sacrilage <this is a disease debuff, it helps other classes>Lucans Leadership <STR needs to be added back to this... is my only thing to this spell > Everlasting hunger <Redirection needed on this... Its visually no change.. Hell it barely parses if it does... >Death March

Colcos

04-25-2008, 01:20 PM

doom rays is beneficial too.... but those assets are rarely enough for us to be chosen over other classes to raid, they certainly don't make us a better choice for MT/OT

DMIstar

04-25-2008, 01:28 PM

Yeah I forgot doom rays ;/ .... in the end.. No.. These are not something that helps keep us a MT/OT .... actually most of which are more for helping others then helping us tank...... Its a mess, we can all agree on... Personally though I want our itemizations fixed up first hand.. Which will bring up our DPS and Aggro control... for OTing.. then work on these raid items... Or redirect the class to support tank which realy is not something an SK is ;P

Vehnic

04-25-2008, 02:11 PM

While I do think that Shadowknights have the capacity (based on player ability and raid build) to do "well enough" we are in need of at least SOMETHING to give us a respectable spot in a raid force. Currently, SKs are an extremely hard class to master and make it in a raid scene.Not to rehash ideas that others have already come up with (and I agree with most of them) on this thread, I have a couple of other ideas that I think would help without causing an out-cry from the other fighters (not that they should aside from MAYBE bruisers/zerkers in the same raid setting). Oddly enough, I fall back on EQ1 for the big ones.1. Bring back the BOND OF DEATH line - An ability that is a lifetap over time on a single mob. Make it a flat percent of life returned based on whatever mob you have it on. I haven't really taken the time to figure in realistic numbers, but think of it as 0.5% of a mob's max health every 4-6s for 30ish seconds. This would not be extremely overpowered in the group/solo situation, but would help immensely with raid tanking since raid mobs actually have a larger number of hit points. Given that we are basically built as a HP/Lifetap tank imo, I think this would give us a lot more survivability given our lack of "oh-[I cannot control my vocabulary]" mit/avoid abilities.2. Lifetap return is the same as Dmg dealt - As it was in EQ1, the heal on lifetaps were the same as the damage they dealt to mobs... simple enough, and not incredibly overpowered.3. Bring back the ZEVFEER'S BITE line - In EQ1 we had a small life/power tap that would effect our group. While this wouldn't set us over the bar compared to the other fighters, this would add a bit more utility in healing our group/restoring some power.4. Bring back the TORRENT OF *** lines - In EQ1, there was a few different flavors of this spell (Attack, Defense, Fatique drain) that would benefit the group's ability of the respective spell. This wouldn't be an immense upgrade but would give us some more utility.Aside from that, I totally agree with most of the boosts that others have mentioned in regards to our funked stances, dps, AAs, etc etc.I can say as a raiding SK since Tier 5 now, it has been extremely hard to hold a spot among the higher end guilds. Please look into this SOE as this is the only class for me since EQ1.

Ashdaren

04-25-2008, 02:51 PM

permanent pet would be just so cool. This could be an alternate way to [Removed for Content] the SK while not directly buffing the class in itself too much.

Darkc

04-25-2008, 04:39 PM

Don't forget we can also potentially debuff Wisdom by 200+, the most powerful Wis debuff in the game to my knowledge. Debuff damage adds up, especially for Sorcerers. Permanent pet is probably the number 1 thing I miss the most about the EQ2 SK vs the EQ1 SK. That definately would be welcome, but unless they make it AoE immune / have some modified hit rate / or provide some sort of useful buff for having it around (or explode doing aoe damage or something if it dies) it won't help much on raids. In Eq1 it was quite a nifty pulling tool. I remember when SKs were in a similar situation in EQ1 and the Zevfeer's bite line, Spears (fast cast, high damage nukes with long recast) along with a fix to the mana tap spell did the trick to make the class more wanted... considering the availability of power gear in this game, I doubt it'll have the same impact. Also, I really don't see the devs adding more spell lines at this state of the game though bringing back the Spears line would nice. Torrents is another line that would be great, maybe steal DPS (like 12 - 30 range) from the enemy and add it to the SK group. Can definately use stronger lifetaps. UPDATED ORIGINAL LIST WITH NEW IDEAS.If I missed any ideas please repost, hard to pull them all out from every post.

DMIstar

04-25-2008, 05:29 PM

<cite>Vehnic wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I do think that Shadowknights have the capacity (based on player ability and raid build) to do "well enough" we are in need of at least SOMETHING to give us a respectable spot in a raid force. Currently, SKs are an extremely hard class to master and make it in a raid scene.Not to rehash ideas that others have already come up with (and I agree with most of them) on this thread, I have a couple of other ideas that I think would help without causing an out-cry from the other fighters (not that they should aside from MAYBE bruisers/zerkers in the same raid setting). Oddly enough, I fall back on EQ1 for the big ones.1. Bring back the BOND OF DEATH line - An ability that is a lifetap over time on a single mob. Make it a flat percent of life returned based on whatever mob you have it on. I haven't really taken the time to figure in realistic numbers, but think of it as 0.5% of a mob's max health every 4-6s for 30ish seconds. This would not be extremely overpowered in the group/solo situation, but would help immensely with raid tanking since raid mobs actually have a larger number of hit points. Given that we are basically built as a HP/Lifetap tank imo, I think this would give us a lot more survivability given our lack of "oh-[I cannot control my vocabulary]" mit/avoid abilities.2. Lifetap return is the same as Dmg dealt - As it was in EQ1, the heal on lifetaps were the same as the damage they dealt to mobs... simple enough, and not incredibly overpowered.3. Bring back the ZEVFEER'S BITE line - In EQ1 we had a small life/power tap that would effect our group. While this wouldn't set us over the bar compared to the other fighters, this would add a bit more utility in healing our group/restoring some power.4. Bring back the TORRENT OF *** lines - In EQ1, there was a few different flavors of this spell (Attack, Defense, Fatique drain) that would benefit the group's ability of the respective spell. This wouldn't be an immense upgrade but would give us some more utility.Aside from that, I totally agree with most of the boosts that others have mentioned in regards to our funked stances, dps, AAs, etc etc.I can say as a raiding SK since Tier 5 now, it has been extremely hard to hold a spot among the higher end guilds. Please look into this SOE as this is the only class for me since EQ1.</blockquote>Man I wanted stuff like this from the start.. Have put up that idea awhile back ago in threads, the abilities in EQ where pretty well thought out and could work well here ... Esp Stuff like Bond of Death ... Cause right now.. We only have 2 True lifetaps to our class the rest is "Procs" or an extra long cast/recast of Tap viens which clearly is not made to be a bane lifetap of ours..... Still the Bane of our problems is lack of itemization routes..

Jikko

04-26-2008, 05:40 AM

I mentioned a while back that I thought a cool idea would be to give us a permanent pet that uses an ability on us akin to Devious Evasion. Basically a permanent pet that does a measure of melee damage (maybe 300-400 dps worth) and also parries attacks for us on occasion. Make it fairly beefy so that it doesn't get constantly smashed by AEs or make it AE-immune. This would give us a bit of a DPS boost and help with our absolutely abysmal avoidance.This wouldn't fix the lack of necessity on raids though.

Seolta

04-26-2008, 06:27 AM

We need ONE thing:SoE to tell us they are looking at our class for possible fixes.THAT'S IT!!!How is that so hard???

Margen

04-26-2008, 09:55 AM

Itemization is part of the problem I agree, but even if they combined the CA/SPELL damage, we need an increase in our base damage from our CA/Spells. They just havent grown with this expansion to keep us up with classes we should outparse. If they did combine it would help, but excluding death tickle, it wouldn't be long before we hit the 50pct cap.The idea of a perment pet that increases our avoidance I like, but it would have to be pretty tough. I rarely even use my pet, even in group zones, he just is too squishy and his dps is too low.I long ago accepted I wouldn't have the tanking abilities of Guardians (dont' like it, but accepted it), but the fact they have better agro now and better dps so ticks me off. We need an increase in our dps, and I mean if we are filling the OT role and am not in a perfect dps group, we have enough dps to be high on the hate tree to grab agro.We also need some major improvement in our utility, to be blunt our spell damage plus just doesn't work in this expansion due to the fact every mage has spell damage out the tailpipe. DM is basicly a 10 sec buff once a fight, hardly great (although I admit makeing it raid wide would be a nice start). Increasing dps from two handers would also be nice, considering their dps to be blunt is horrible for what you give up when you use one.

DMIstar

04-26-2008, 12:14 PM

Just to put up my meaning on Itemization... I Do not mean to have spell and CA combined... Though that is a step towards a better direction. Its is not something that is class fixeing... CA dmg only counts for 4 of our spells ... With a shield 5.. and thats it.. Its sorta Ridiculouse that we orignally had pieces of armor with CA dmg on it, While it only effected the smallest amount of damage that we use... What I want is Our INT/STR to equal "more" then the STR of guard.. TO show that we have an edge on Damage, to put us where we are supposed to be.. If we do that, then our Spells and overall DM g will go up as well. at a better designed rate... Right now SK's should not be doing a pitiful dmg rate while tanking. We should be haveing an edge cause thats what we are .. a High Damage Tank.. In comparison to guards .. ^ If SoE does not want to do this.. THen I want to know, what they hell are we.. period...

DMIstar

04-26-2008, 02:57 PM

<cite>Seolta@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>We need ONE thing:SoE to tell us they are looking at our class for possible fixes.THAT'S IT!!!How is that so hard???</blockquote>They are takeing the time to delete the threads rather then doing this ... Thats how hard it is... So far one thread is deleted which was a FIX SK 08 Thread."Fix us or lose us" Thread is currently broke. They won't even say anything on the devouring mist nerf... yeah I believe its a nerf.

Giral

04-27-2008, 05:10 PM

another minor issue i would like the dev's to look into is Sk's Tuant over timeSk's tuant will become equal with other tanks tuant but it has to build up to it, but there is one other factor in this and that is that hate Decays over time(as stated by Moorgard -previous dev) , so we have a double negative on our tuant over time, wyle agro is building its also decaying they should add a large Burst agro at the end of our tuants to make up for the time it takes for them to build, and also change the ticks to increase with each tick to get larger and larger as it builds and on termination should have another Large agro amount to make up for the time it took to Build up that hate in the first place example = Cast Tuant, initial burst of agro, agro builds up Larger and larger with each Tick and on termination gives a Large amount of hate i believe Sk's should have the best agro generation of hate on mobs by the midway point , all the other tanks get large upfront hate tools, but they should start having issue's by the midway point and lose agro easier after that , Sk's should take longer to build it but by the midway point till the end of the engagent an Sk should be the hands down hardest tank to pull agro off , as it is currently it takes an sk longer to build hate with Dots and Tuants , but for the trouble they just break even with it to other tanks and can lose it just as easily from the midway point till the end of encounter, but other tanks have the edge on the Upfront agro to grab and hold the initial hate and lose it alot less up till the midway point . this goes for alot of our other skills as well,and our dps, to achieve what other tanks do we have to do Alot more to be near equal, on paper you might be able to easily add up the tank classses and come out with similar numbers the Method used to achieve those numbers is vastly diffrent and when it comes to a Shadowknight. they never get that little Extra they need on skill's /item's/gear/Tuants to actualy make up for the Method they use to achieve the similar numbers on paper . and is why sk's when well geared/mastered can do pretty well in all phases solo/group tank/dps/and OT / MT . and why Other tanks can solo group and OT and MT in less Gear and Less masters easier , Sk's have to get well geared and mastered to be equal to other less geared tanks, becuase our skills/stats/gear over all put us behind other tanks becuase they Mostly all just a bit under powered ,,, we need to get that 5 % extra added in that doesn't show up on paper becuase of the Method we use to come to the same numbers , also like to see large End damage applied to our dots, example = cast.. hits mob for xx amount and deals x amount of damage, on termination does X amount of damage ... since DPS is Agro and we use DOTS and Dots take TIME, they should give a Little Extra to make up for that TIME that other tanks are doing XX amount of damage near instantly P.s. what i'd realy love to see on our mythical is Immunity to spell cast interupts , to equal a guardians immunity to reposte's, when we get interupted casting a lifetap can mean our death, when we get interupted casting our spells and dots its means we arent doing any damage or creating any hate for a long long time (another issue of how sk's method of tanking makes it harder to use sk's over other tanks, is interupts for sk's are very Bad )

ReficulFonwaps

04-27-2008, 07:01 PM

These are all great ideas, but I fear this is all falling on deaf ears. We have been waiting far far too long for SK fixes, and have not recieved any sliver of a reply from the developers. I feel like they will never listen as long as they have us paying to play their game, so I quit. Cancelling account now.

Giral

04-28-2008, 02:18 PM

<cite>ReficulFonwaps wrote:</cite><blockquote>These are all great ideas, but I fear this is all falling on deaf ears. We have been waiting far far too long for SK fixes, and have not recieved any sliver of a reply from the developers. I feel like they will never listen as long as they have us paying to play their game, so I quit. Cancelling account now.</blockquote>the devs have been called out, goaded,insulted,tuanted, numerous times recently on these forums, the devs have rules against them being Forced into answering threads . becuase once they start answering them then peple will always use that time as an example of when Dev X answered X posts becuase the X player forced them to. im sure devs have posted in some threads that had a negative stuff about devs befor here and there, but i dont think i have ever seen them post to in any thread they were bing dirrectly called out in, or threads entitled DEVS this or that ... we have forum Moderators here not Developrs, liek stated in another thread in this forum the MOD< has brought up these posts to the developers, but if every single constructive posts keeps getting riddled with threats, insults, your just Giving the Devs an exuse not to post any replies at all becuase of there Own forum rules. i personaly dont expect any replies ever from the developers about SK's, i have played from release and have seen only 3 or 4 posts from devs here, and then only a couple lines at that , but SK"s have had some changes the like deathmarch(after there was a 30+ long page post on Combat Forums titled " the most Useless class for Raiding in eq2( i know the OP pretty well that started that post /WINK) and thru the entire post , there was 1 SK that said sk's were fine, but 98 % of the community was in agreement that SK's needed attention , and they Got some, we are at a similar situation, there are once again Numerous Posts on Numerous message bords,numerous pages long about the FACT that Sk's are as always LAcking compared to the other Plate tanks, and once again 98 % of the Community on all these forums is in Agreement SK's need some TWeaks, and there is always the 1 SK that never had an issue and never will and thinks the sk class is Great and dont need anything,but wouldnt complain if we got more, and the other 1 % that is friends/guildies with an SK that roxxers that also doesnt see how the issue's are effecting the other 98 % of the players and Sk's Sorry for de-railing the thread, but im getting tired of trying to Post up Helpfull information that might Actualy help the Devs to Fix Sk's correctly this time, and keep getting every thread Spammed with people screaming,whining.crying.threatening and getting the threads LOCked, Please let us have 1 Thread that you dont De-reail and stays on Toic and Unlocked . P.S. DO YOU WANT ANOTHER BAND AID FIX LIKE DEATHMARCH THAT IS UNDERPOWERED ALREADY ? OR DO YOU WANT THE DEVS TO ACTUALY TAKE A FULL LOOK AT THE ENTIRE SK CLASS COMPARED TO ALL THE OTHER PLATE TANKS, AND COMPARE WHAT THEY READ FROM THE FORUMS FROM SK'S ACTUALY PLAYING AND RAIDING ON SK'S TO BE ABLE TO MAKE THE TWEAKS AND ADJUSTMENTS THEY NEED TO FIX THE SK SO WE WONT RUN INTO THE SAME PROBLEM IN THE NEXT LEVEL INCREASE????? THE SK CLASS NEED'S TWEAKS AND ADJUSTMENT ,, NOT BAND AID FIXES,,, IMO THEY DEFINITLY KNOW HOW THE ENTIRE RAIDING COMMUNITY FEELS ABOUT SK'S, AND THERE IS ALOT OF INFORMATION COMMING IN FROM ALOT OF SHADOWKNIGHTS THAT DO RAID, SO PLEASE LET US LET THE DEVS CONTINUE TO GET THIS IMPORTANT INFORMATION """now''' SO WE CAN GET TWEAKS AND ADJUSTMENTS TO BRING US UP THAT x% THAT WE NEED. INSTEAD OF A BAND AID FIX THAT DOESNT DO JACK BUT MAKE US A 1 TIRCK PONEY LIKE DEATHMARCH DID IN KOS/EOF ....

Phank

04-28-2008, 02:51 PM

Hate generated over time has been the crutch of our class since day one. That isn't going to change. We are not the preferred tank, so we have to deal with it.10 min reuse on Touch of Death could be lowered to 5 min.The Rescue AA could lower timer instead of increase position.Our Carress line could be made to generate hate per HIT instead of per time BEING HIT.

Tiberuis

04-28-2008, 02:53 PM

Okies, some SK "fixes" I would like to see :1) Death March. It has become a class defining ability. So make it Raid Wide. Any of you SK's that are not currently invited to raids, watch for the tells to roll in. Period.2) Death Touch. Make it an actual Death Touch. Like a touch that actually kills things. Just as advertised. 3) Base Spell Damage. Forget about melee crits and DA's and CA's. That's Guard/Zerker territory. Let's keep our identity as your local hocus pocus Battle Mage. Increase our base spell damage, and re-inforce our ability to out DPS a defense tank via casting spells. This re-inforces the core value of what we are, and will also improve our ability to tank and OT.4) Raid Wide Buff. Add a +INT benefit to our current raid wide buff. Furhter re-inforce our Battle Mage (caster benefits) identity, right across the raid.I know these are simple improvements, but I would like to see things done that further re-inforce our Battle Mage/Plate Caster identity, and not copy the other plate tanks.

Razlath

04-28-2008, 04:07 PM

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Okies, some SK "fixes" I would like to see :1) Death March. It has become a class defining ability. So make it Raid Wide. Any of you SK's that are not currently invited to raids, watch for the tells to roll in. Period.2) Death Touch. Make it an actual Death Touch. Like a touch that actually kills things. Just as advertised. 3) Base Spell Damage. Forget about melee crits and DA's and CA's. That's Guard/Zerker territory. Let's keep our identity as your local hocus pocus Battle Mage. Increase our base spell damage, and re-inforce our ability to out DPS a defense tank via casting spells. This re-inforces the core value of what we are, and will also improve our ability to tank and OT.4) Raid Wide Buff. Add a +INT benefit to our current raid wide buff. Furhter re-inforce our Battle Mage (caster benefits) identity, right across the raid.I know these are simple improvements, but I would like to see things done that further re-inforce our Battle Mage/Plate Caster identity, and not copy the other plate tanks. </blockquote>I like these ideas. I think something to keep in mind, is lets not ask to lose our class identity. Just like all the threads asking for dual wield, lets not head down that road. If I wanted a berserker I would roll one. ;} I still think a double attack line wouldn't be all bad, especially if as suggested it only affected two handed weaps. Seems like that would fit within our theme still, but give us some melee damage boost.

Vehnic

04-28-2008, 09:29 PM

As far as an SK in "DPS" mode...2hander > DWJust my opinion; I don't even know why people keep wanting DW. Just make 2handers more useful.

NANEEJE

04-29-2008, 12:01 AM

I am a Paladin, but I tell you what... if our WISDOM line stays untouched after the next update, it's just insane. It is obviously a outdated line and just needs a few adjustments, and there is no reason why they can't make those adjustments sooner then later.

Hamervelder

04-29-2008, 12:39 AM

<cite>NANEEJE wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am a Paladin, but I tell you what... if our WISDOM line stays untouched after the next update, it's just insane. It is obviously a outdated line and just needs a few adjustments, and there is no reason why they can't make those adjustments sooner then later.</blockquote>Wisdom and Agility both are about useless.

Pitt Hammerfi

04-29-2008, 12:53 AM

I would like to see our defensive stance add 10-20% riposte (since we are offensive tanks) this would also add extra hate and bit of extra dps while in defensive. 3 problems solved with 1 change.I would like to see our offensive stance add 5% DA and 5% spell DA to compensate for our ridiculously low spell dmg

Kratoswra

04-29-2008, 05:54 AM

Crusader AAs and SK AAs need some changes. Some ability are less than useless Especcialy the following abilities: - Replace the WIS line in combat regen for: %16 dispersion group dispersion proc. Will give us mana when tanking and its good defense. - Replace the +defense/inmune knock in AGI tree for: Riposte 8%. +block.- Int end line ability: Make it reflect combat arts as well. Lower the recast to 30 sec.In the SK tree:- Nefarius caress: Also increase damage for a %.- Mana sieve: Increase greatly the mana we get in return and add a lifetap overtime effect. I dont know any SK that uses this AA right now.- Alternate Siphon Armament: Make it give more AC than it takes and be able to cast on self. Good for solo, or when only 2 tanks in raid. The MT and the OT.- Make a new final ability: Leechcurse: that makes all your lifetaps (including reaver) have also a small ward. OR a buff that makes 1/3 of the damage we take go to our mana instead of hp. You need Siphon hate, reaver and blood pool to have this ability.Change stances you can aply this to pallis too:Offensive stance: Add to stance: 10% double attack. 10% double attak if 2 hander equiped. (20% total with 2hander).Defensive stance: 10% reflect spell. 10% reflect spell if shield equipped. (20% total with shield)This would make sk pallys better to tank mobs with lots of spells while guards zerk better at melee type mobs, while all able to tank anything and dps if needed

Gehemnishthex

04-29-2008, 10:02 AM

Some one go shake Darkc and get him to come edit the front page to include all the issues folks have piled up in the thread <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><div > </div>

Soefje

04-29-2008, 10:14 AM

I want to see something that allows me to tank better with a 2-hander. I have tried in several zones, and without the shield, just can stay alive, even with 2 healers. Also, lose a taunt when using a 2 hander. 1. Make shield bash - Body bash. Can use with or without a shield. Or even better make is a knockback spell that is effected by +spell damage.2. I like the changes to defensive stance +AGI would be much better than +WIS.3. Add +STR to offensive stance.4. Death Tickle (I mean Death Touch) needs serious work. When I am fighting blue mobs and don't see health bars move when I use it, means something is wrong.5. I don't Raid, but making Death March Raid wide is a great idea.6. I like making Caress line work with each hit instead of being hit. Means I can control the ability more.7. Need to serious do something that would allow us to use a 2-hander and be effective as tanks. Maybe a new stance that would give us +STR and/or +AGI and +Parry, +Riposte, +Mit?, but only if you use a 2-hander. I think stances could be great way to allow tanks to adjust to different situations.Can't think of anything else right now (boss is coming also).

Darkc

04-29-2008, 11:51 AM

A lot of great ideas since I last checked this thread! I'll update in a few minutes.

MicheleMyBell

04-29-2008, 12:11 PM

Looking at this as an objective outsider who does not have an SK...What was an issue with the SK in 2005 was not a business decision to get it fixed right away. For example..... number of SK's with issues (subscription) = man-hours to reprogram and nerf???? What percentage of customers did these issues effect? Added "noise" only detracts and sets aside the action further. When my children incessantly complain in a non-constructive manner...I table the complains and get to them when I can..if it is a real issue.Is 2005 the last time anyone wrote a decent thread pointing out both issues and solutions? Simply pasting forum links to regurgitate existing class requests is lazy. If you are such a heavy hitter in the game have you thought about joining any projects that allows you to enter your input maturely and constructively? Post a new thread an illustrate issues with links from the past. You get more bees with honey.The staff has accomplished a major feat. They have created a game that enormous amounts of people enjoy and continue to purchase. If the same posters and customers have the same issues for "38" months, you have the freedom to play and purchase else where. I personally do not want to see the staff distracted on old 2005 posts. Take the time to point out issues AND solutions. The 2 year old temper tantrum when you are not paid attention to does not work and certainly does not garner respect from your fellow players. Unless these posters are in fact children. I recomend shutting the post down until people with real issues can post something decent.All and all, good job SOE, keep it coming! Thanks for the Podcasts too. Glad to see them with frequency.

Tiberuis

04-29-2008, 12:24 PM

With respect to keeping DarkC's job of putting together a coherent list of issues, and perhaps earning a sticky for this excellent and useful post, lets keep this thread on track please. We don't need DarkC, and the mods and dev's having to sift through noise to get to the good stuff.SK's, please continue to list the specific issues and mechanics affecting your toon. Please try to keep your list focused on end game raiding mechanics, as per the thread subject, with an eye to achieving balanced play and raid utility vs. the other plate tank classes. Some great posts coming in, keep it up Shadowknights!

geophonic

04-29-2008, 01:04 PM

One thing about our spells: I think some of the casting times are too long. When you Tank you get interrupted, and this especially hurts the long cast spells, which unfortunately do the most damage. hence if you constantly have to cast again you loose dps and aggro.Another note about tanking: I can go full defensive and get my avoidance to 70-71% in a raid, but the benefits are small. Yes, a fully defensive setup lets me tank really good, but I loose alot of dps and therefore hate. I am not often the one who compared classes, but a Guardian going full defensive does not loose the same doing so.Solutions? I think, as mentioned by others before, an increase in spell damage would be very good, and compare that with a general reduction in casting times.

Darkc

04-29-2008, 01:41 PM

<cite>Tiberuis wrote:</cite><blockquote>With respect to keeping DarkC's job of putting together a coherent list of issues, and perhaps earning a sticky for this excellent and useful post, lets keep this thread on track please. We don't need DarkC, and the mods and dev's having to sift through noise to get to the good stuff.SK's, please continue to list the specific issues and mechanics affecting your toon. Please try to keep your list focused on end game raiding mechanics, as per the thread subject, with an eye to achieving balanced play and raid utility vs. the other plate tank classes. Some great posts coming in, keep it up Shadowknights! </blockquote>Yes, I really don't want this thread to turn into a "Christmas List" but more of a "My SK doesn't perform quite as he should because of A, B, C... so thus D could be a way to redmedy that" sort of thing. I admit though, this thread has been flowing very well with great ideas... but I guess I'd like to see more "why we need this" as well. The list is getting pretty bloated and in the next couple of days I'll be going through and summarizing all the ideas a bit better.

Gnobrin

04-29-2008, 02:22 PM

Thank you Darkc for posting this! I can't promise swift returns on it, but I'll be more then happy to forward it to those on the team that juggle the 24 classes and how to balance them.<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />~Gnobrin!

evilgamer

04-29-2008, 02:27 PM

Hamervelder

04-29-2008, 04:19 PM

<cite>MicheleMyBell wrote:</cite><blockquote>Looking at this as an objective outsider who does not have an SK...What was an issue with the SK in 2005 was not a business decision to get it fixed right away. For example..... number of SK's with issues (subscription) = man-hours to reprogram and nerf???? What percentage of customers did these issues effect? Added "noise" only detracts and sets aside the action further. When my children incessantly complain in a non-constructive manner...I table the complains and get to them when I can..if it is a real issue.Is 2005 the last time anyone wrote a decent thread pointing out both issues and solutions? Simply pasting forum links to regurgitate existing class requests is lazy. If you are such a heavy hitter in the game have you thought about joining any projects that allows you to enter your input maturely and constructively? Post a new thread an illustrate issues with links from the past. You get more bees with honey.The staff has accomplished a major feat. They have created a game that enormous amounts of people enjoy and continue to purchase. If the same posters and customers have the same issues for "38" months, you have the freedom to play and purchase else where. I personally do not want to see the staff distracted on old 2005 posts. Take the time to point out issues AND solutions. The 2 year old temper tantrum when you are not paid attention to does not work and certainly does not garner respect from your fellow players. Unless these posters are in fact children. I recomend shutting the post down until people with real issues can post something decent.All and all, good job SOE, keep it coming! Thanks for the Podcasts too. Glad to see them with frequency.</blockquote>Post a new thread to illustrate issues with links from the past? <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=416370" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Been done</a>. That thread was criticized by Gnobrin for being unnecessary. Welcome to not having a clue. When folks like yourself make posts like the one that I've quoted here, we call that "trolling". It certainly won't garner any respect from your fellow players.You clearly have not been paying any attention. The best thing you can do is to take your condescending attitude and troll elsewhere. In fact, the only meaningful thing that you had to say in your entire post is "does not have an SK". You have no clue what you're talking about, and you clearly came here for no other purpose than to troll. The point that you missed due to your obvious solipsism is that the same issues with our class have been present for over three years. No amount of constructive criticism, suggestions, or posts, have done anything to correct the problems with our class. Quite frankly, the rest of your post is so abysmal, that it doesn't warrant a response. The only thing meaningful that you added is that you do not play a shadowknight, and therefore, have nothing to add. Perhaps your time would be better spent with your children. Have a nice day.

Ashdaren

04-29-2008, 04:31 PM

Here are my A,B,C and why D A : SK have no Role - Guard Berserk are the Raid Tank and out dps SK - Bruiser Monk are better DPS than Brigand, though can't be raid MT - Paladin are wanted for hate management and with the new epic (10% dmg returned as life + 10% mitig + shield buff) are just as potent Raid Tank - All Mage DPS, All healer heal, All scout DPS+debuff Everyone can fill an interchangeable role BUT tank, only one tank is ever used. So i ask, what an SK bring to the table when they don't MT which they CAN'T do.Nothing, not even DPS!Suggestion, but other might have better suggestion, 2 easy guess : make us do good dps, or be good tank. B : The class does not scale like others It is hard to understand why at low lvl SK have high DMG, Drain abilities while at T8 their spells are subpar. Exemple, no melee attack hit for more than 1k, where other tank get this, spells don't hit over 1k even with crit beside one spell with 2sec cast time Drain don't scale as one would expect alike the Paladin Heals.C : We have no buff to help tankingNote : we have good survivavibility buff, i like it a lot, but as in 2005 avoidance wasn't making bruiser tank, survivability doesn't make me tank, it help me play with death better, but i still end up dying since i'm not geared enough for my job.The bad points : - defensive stance with only +DEF skill (where warriors get parry) - no temporary defense buff, like lal other tank get - no AA geared toward tanking (shield for paly) - no epic for tanking (while other epic totally break the game)As a side note, we have our healing but, it doesn't scale and the cast time are outrageous for the benefits. This is an axe of enhancement on itselfHere comes the D : far from wanting a wish list, I would just like the caveats to be filled so we can find our place in this game like we once did. Mortigan 80 SK Nagafen

Gehemnishthex

04-29-2008, 05:00 PM

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thank you Darkc for posting this! I can't promise swift returns on it, but I'll be more then happy to forward it to those on the team that juggle the 24 classes and how to balance them.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" />~Gnobrin!</blockquote>awesome!(don't take this next part as a gripe) remember though that posts like this had been up well before the big belly aching and thread locking started. More often than not (stealth 'change' of despoiling mists an exception) posts here are constructive, well thought out, full of suggestions, and specific in example for bugs and complaints. The devs are more than welcome to come read them if they so choose, and even a response like the one you gave would have prevented the poop slinging and thread locking that happened in the last week or so. A little bit of acknowledgment goes a long way, and helpful threads like this one didn't just suddenly start up in response to yall suggesting a good way to put our ideas up.

Nakash

04-29-2008, 05:04 PM

Darkc please add the - raise of base spell damage/raise base disease damage to the list.spells are a mayor thing that makes us different fromm other tank classes. Even if the the interrupts we get could get a bit tweaked.our spelldamage is low this also keeps +spelldamage really working for us cause this makes the cap also low.Riposte, DA, Melee Crit are more the warrior domain. All we get from this will ever be subpar to what they can get out of it.To give us an equal damage tool raise of spell base damage would be needed.Works fine can be tested out by trying the bertoxxulous god spells wich do some things like this.Raising base disease damage would maybe the better way

MicheleMyBell

04-29-2008, 05:13 PM

<cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MicheleMyBell wrote:</cite><blockquote>Looking at this as an objective outsider who does not have an SK...What was an issue with the SK in 2005 was not a business decision to get it fixed right away. For example..... number of SK's with issues (subscription) = man-hours to reprogram and nerf???? What percentage of customers did these issues effect? Added "noise" only detracts and sets aside the action further. When my children incessantly complain in a non-constructive manner...I table the complains and get to them when I can..if it is a real issue.Is 2005 the last time anyone wrote a decent thread pointing out both issues and solutions? Simply pasting forum links to regurgitate existing class requests is lazy. If you are such a heavy hitter in the game have you thought about joining any projects that allows you to enter your input maturely and constructively? Post a new thread an illustrate issues with links from the past. You get more bees with honey.The staff has accomplished a major feat. They have created a game that enormous amounts of people enjoy and continue to purchase. If the same posters and customers have the same issues for "38" months, you have the freedom to play and purchase else where. I personally do not want to see the staff distracted on old 2005 posts. Take the time to point out issues AND solutions. The 2 year old temper tantrum when you are not paid attention to does not work and certainly does not garner respect from your fellow players. Unless these posters are in fact children. I recomend shutting the post down until people with real issues can post something decent.All and all, good job SOE, keep it coming! Thanks for the Podcasts too. Glad to see them with frequency.</blockquote>Post a new thread to illustrate issues with links from the past? <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=416370" target="_blank">Been done</a>. That thread was criticized by Gnobrin for being unnecessary. Welcome to not having a clue. When folks like yourself make posts like the one that I've quoted here, we call that "trolling". It certainly won't garner any respect from your fellow players.You clearly have not been paying any attention. The best thing you can do is to take your condescending attitude and troll elsewhere. In fact, the only meaningful thing that you had to say in your entire post is "does not have an SK". You have no clue what you're talking about, and you clearly came here for no other purpose than to troll. The point that you missed due to your obvious solipsism is that the same issues with our class have been present for over three years. No amount of constructive criticism, suggestions, or posts, have done anything to correct the problems with our class. Quite frankly, the rest of your post is so abysmal, that it doesn't warrant a response. The only thing meaningful that you added is that you do not play a shadowknight, and therefore, have nothing to add. Perhaps your time would be better spent with your children. Have a nice day.</blockquote>Personally attacking me?? If the truth hurts....Do you know the definition of a troller? Condecending? Please, go back to EQ2Flames. It was a mature response to people who demand attention and entitlement. I understand why of if your think they ignore your type. I certianly would not garner you any intrest. It does nothing other than get REAL problems ignored. Do you not know the basic meaning of business decisions? They need to justify spending manhours and time on anything. They are in business not a welfare sytem for people with a bad sence of entitlement. It is just a game and if you feel that you have been ignored for three years the see a therapist. What percentage of their subsciptions do you represent. If it is a mere 5% I can assure you, your intrest, not matter how presented will be brushed aside. Perhapse they are working on the issue, just like the guild halls we wanted. AWhat do they owe you??? Ipay enormous amounts of taxes and my politicians tend to ignore me too. Do you think your $14 amonth and a good whine is going to get noticed? Please. Your maturity level reflects your inability to accomplish goals in a business setting. I am surprised they just dont turn the thread into a sticky and delete all posts that are not constructive. Oh yeah..... that would be yours. I am personally tired of seeing the Dev bashing and SOE bashing when they produce a high quality product that is enjoyed by far many. They have done an incredible job and should be recognized, not battered a select FEW. That is not trolling, that is voicing what I feel.

Mallfoy

04-29-2008, 05:46 PM

Two things here, 1. MicheleMyBell please stop posting here. Your not an SK, you don't know how long SKs have MATURELY suggested, discussed and pleaded for a Dev to look into our situation and now we have a good thread going with some awesome ideas which you're distracting from - thank you very little 2. Someone discussed this earlier and I really like the the idea but CRUSADER ONLY gear. Dark you also have a few things listed, but thinking back to EQ, you could add a few more ideas. Also since we're seeing bard specific items in SoH, why not Crusaders. - 1hd weapons: Normally Crusaders had better 1hders (dly / spread) simply because they couldn't DW and couldn't maximize DPS like the others. In EQ there was quite a nice selection of these types of 1hders- Armor that cuts down on casting / reuse timers-

Tiberuis

04-29-2008, 05:48 PM

Thank-you very much Gnobrin for your attentiveness and courtesy to this thread. And thank-you again DarkC for your excellent work in compiling and posting this thread.I say again, with respect to keeping DarkC's job of putting together a coherent list of issues less difficult, and perhaps earning a sticky for this excellent and useful post, lets keep this thread on track please. We don't need DarkC, and the mods and dev's having to sift through noise to get to the good stuff.SK's, please continue to list the specific issues and mechanics affecting your raiding (or non-raiding, not by choice, but by a perception of uselessness in a raid) toon. Please try to keep your lists focused on end game raiding mechanics, as per the thread subject, with an eye to achieving balanced play and raid utility vs. the other plate tank classes. We are getting more and more great posts coming in, keep the great work up Shadowknights!

Hamervelder

04-29-2008, 06:57 PM

<cite>MicheleMyBell wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MicheleMyBell wrote:</cite><blockquote>Looking at this as an objective outsider who does not have an SK...What was an issue with the SK in 2005 was not a business decision to get it fixed right away. For example..... number of SK's with issues (subscription) = man-hours to reprogram and nerf???? What percentage of customers did these issues effect? Added "noise" only detracts and sets aside the action further. When my children incessantly complain in a non-constructive manner...I table the complains and get to them when I can..if it is a real issue.Is 2005 the last time anyone wrote a decent thread pointing out both issues and solutions? Simply pasting forum links to regurgitate existing class requests is lazy. If you are such a heavy hitter in the game have you thought about joining any projects that allows you to enter your input maturely and constructively? Post a new thread an illustrate issues with links from the past. You get more bees with honey.The staff has accomplished a major feat. They have created a game that enormous amounts of people enjoy and continue to purchase. If the same posters and customers have the same issues for "38" months, you have the freedom to play and purchase else where. I personally do not want to see the staff distracted on old 2005 posts. Take the time to point out issues AND solutions. The 2 year old temper tantrum when you are not paid attention to does not work and certainly does not garner respect from your fellow players. Unless these posters are in fact children. I recomend shutting the post down until people with real issues can post something decent.All and all, good job SOE, keep it coming! Thanks for the Podcasts too. Glad to see them with frequency.</blockquote>Post a new thread to illustrate issues with links from the past? <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=416370" target="_blank">Been done</a>. That thread was criticized by Gnobrin for being unnecessary. Welcome to not having a clue. When folks like yourself make posts like the one that I've quoted here, we call that "trolling". It certainly won't garner any respect from your fellow players.You clearly have not been paying any attention. The best thing you can do is to take your condescending attitude and troll elsewhere. In fact, the only meaningful thing that you had to say in your entire post is "does not have an SK". You have no clue what you're talking about, and you clearly came here for no other purpose than to troll. The point that you missed due to your obvious solipsism is that the same issues with our class have been present for over three years. No amount of constructive criticism, suggestions, or posts, have done anything to correct the problems with our class. Quite frankly, the rest of your post is so abysmal, that it doesn't warrant a response. The only thing meaningful that you added is that you do not play a shadowknight, and therefore, have nothing to add. Perhaps your time would be better spent with your children. Have a nice day.</blockquote>Personally attacking me?? If the truth hurts....Do you know the definition of a troller? Condecending? Please, go back to EQ2Flames. It was a mature response to people who demand attention and entitlement. I understand why of if your think they ignore your type. I certianly would not garner you any intrest. It does nothing other than get REAL problems ignored. Do you not know the basic meaning of business decisions? They need to justify spending manhours and time on anything. They are in business not a welfare sytem for people with a bad sence of entitlement. It is just a game and if you feel that you have been ignored for three years the see a therapist. What percentage of their subsciptions do you represent. If it is a mere 5% I can assure you, your intrest, not matter how presented will be brushed aside. Perhapse they are working on the issue, just like the guild halls we wanted. AWhat do they owe you??? Ipay enormous amounts of taxes and my politicians tend to ignore me too. Do you think your $14 amonth and a good whine is going to get noticed? Please. Your maturity level reflects your inability to accomplish goals in a business setting. I am surprised they just dont turn the thread into a sticky and delete all posts that are not constructive. Oh yeah..... that would be yours. I am personally tired of seeing the Dev bashing and SOE bashing when they produce a high quality product that is enjoyed by far many. They have done an incredible job and should be recognized, not battered a select FEW. That is not trolling, that is voicing what I feel.</blockquote> Your post was not mature, nor was it constructed. It was a silver-tongued jab. Nothing more. Have a nice day. You can spew "maturity" all you want, but the fact is, you don't know anything about the subject about which you are trying to post. Nothing says "This poster is immature", like shooting off at the mouth about something that you have no clue about.As for the topic at hand, I think that how to best improve our class depends upon where we see ourselves fitting in. DPS? OT? MT? The problem that I see, is how do you buff up the class so that we're acceptable and desired for raids, without 1) - taking away things that are useful for groups and soloers, as was done when STR was removed from Unhallowed Strength, and 2) - going the other way, and making us too powerful for grouping and soloing? I think it boils down to snap agro, avoidance, and a slight DPS boost.DPS: I think some sort of double-attack modifier would be a good start. Perhaps instead of a melee double-attack, a spell double-attack? Brigands get Double-Up, which repeats the last 2 seconds of CA's cast. Maybe something similar for SK's.OT: -Fix Death March, perhaps make it raid-wide. As it stands, Death March isn't snapping agro like it used to. Stuns, stifles, and the like are also not always prevented while On The March is up. As one of our class-defining spells, I find this unacceptable. Rescue and Death March are really the only ways that we have to snap agro (which is obviously important as OT's), so having DM work as it should, is paramount. -Fix Despoiling Mist.-Of particular vexation to me is our low avoidance in comparison to warriors. As we're all aware, avoidance is as important, if not more important now, than mitigation. Struggling to get avoidance above 40% is commonplace for SK's. We need something, maybe add an avoidance syphon to Despoiling Mist, or to our strength syphon. Or add +parry to Unhallowed Strength.MT: -There are so many issues here, that I think discussing our shortcomings as a raid MT would merit their own thread entirely. I'll leave that for others to debate.-

Phelon_Skellhound

04-29-2008, 07:45 PM

Love this post... I see Itemization is touched on so let me point out this post to see RoK armor progression as it is for us...<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=411374" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=411374</a>As u can see... stat wise... the pain is there and very real as Demongaurd is no true upgrade to us at fabled.... from a raid zone for raiding sk's....

HentaiB

04-29-2008, 09:50 PM

Been reading this from work and I have to say some good solid ideas in here. Things I like. Turning +spell damage from raidwide buff into +base damage increase. Tons of other original ideas and CRAZY ideas. Anything constuctive is good and CRAZY ideas can become great ideas. The huge disparity with 2-handers vs dual wield. (And we do not need to be able to dual wield)Things I disagree with. Raid wide death march. (This should be something on the mythical to be in line with some of the other mythicals) Raid wide CoB and PoTM ect. That the auto attack ae line of AGI is useless. (It's is VERY solid for fighting avatars among other things and do not forget that some people still do old content and it was awsome for some old content) That we are a completly broken and unplayable class in comparison to other classes (We are better with things like bloodletter ect, but we do need some looking into and love) That so little is mentioned of the SK AA tree other than siphon hate (That is where a ton of attention on the crusader tree. I will be making a post in the AA fourms about this and PALADINS REALLY NEED TO BE INCLUDED IN THE DISCUSION)Some of you guys have really stepped up on this and please more keep stepping in.As I said before I will be making a post in the AA foums about crusader AA lines. I also will be making a separate thread for SK AA line and a post about 2-handers in the items and equipment section of the forums. I fell that if we keep these things seperate and don't go off on tangents we will much better off in the end with feedback. As I make the posts I will link them with my post here.Keep up the good work.link for AA changes<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=416496�" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...416496�</a>link for 2-hander changes<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=416499�" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...99�</a>

Hamervelder

04-29-2008, 10:38 PM

IMHO (and it's worth what you paid for it), the Paladin AA tree is much better than ours. Too bad it doesn't make up for the rest of their class's shortcomings. When I feel really bad about being an SK, I log over to Test and play my paladin. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> At any rate, I personally agree with you that we don't need dual wield. Not that I'd object to giving us the ability to do so; I just don't think dual-wielding would solve any of our problems. I'd much rather see double-attack for using a two-handed weapon. Maybe revamp the AGI or WIS lines (both of which I think are less than useful), to include DA for a two-hander.I'd also like to see them do away w/ the paltry buffs in the WIS line, and give us boosts to parry and DPS. Will it ever happen? No, probably not. But a guy can dream. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Mallfoy

04-30-2008, 06:14 AM

<cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'd also like to see them do away w/ the paltry buffs in the WIS line, and give us boosts to parry and DPS.</blockquote>I agree, I'd like to see the WIS line change to something DPS / 2 hder related. First tier: WIS (obviously)Second tier: Can keep the current skillThird tier: Increase DA % chanceFourth tier: Include Shield Block % while having a 2hder equipt OR Have a % increase to either DEF or Parry when 2hder is equipt (Or maybe include all three) Final tier: Something nice (tossing out an idea) --- Short duration buff, something that temporarily boost Melee Crit and/or DA. Maybe also add a proc - will proc on every auto attack and CA casted which does X damage to mob and returns 25% of the damage to group in health and power.It adds DPS (which we're asking for), it enhances out ability to use 2hders (which we've asked for) and it allows to use 2hder when tanking (which we've asked for). Unfortunately the problem with changing the WIS line is that it also effects the Pallys and not sure if they'd concur with the changes.

VSRayv

04-30-2008, 09:57 AM

New to SK world but i just wanted to say some of the post on here are fantastic & i really hope some of your ideas get seriously looked at by the Devs. I'm only a lvl 27 SK so have yet to experience the High end of the game but look forward to it

Tiberuis

04-30-2008, 10:52 AM

Great posts SK's! Lots of good ideas are continuing to come in for DarkC (thanks so much for this great post DarkC!) to compile, and the Mods/Dev's to look at in terms of class balancing for end-game SK's vs. the other plate tanks.What I find interesting so far in reading many of these posts, is that the end game playing (or want to raid but can't get invited) SK's are NOT asking for a lot of standard plate tank increases. I do not see lots of SK's here asking for "more base mitigation, more hit points, higher base defence, higher hate table single target taunts, dual wield, shield/buckler bonuses", etc. What most SK's seem to be asking for here are improvements to our existing base spell casting damage, a bonus for 2H weapons, raid-wide buff improvements (ie. raid wide Death March as a Mythical bonus), and improvements to our existing AA lines that seem kind of useless right now (ie. Agility line, WIS line).What this clearly confirms to me is that most SK's want end-game improvements for thier toons that are in line with the core SK identity and values...Spell Casting, Battle Mage, Plate Tanks of Darkness! No need to copy our other plate tank counterparts when balancing our class to thier level of raiding capability.I personally really enjoy the design and intent of the SK class...and would like to see our unique identity maintained, while balancing our class to compete with the end-game Tanking and DPS capabilities of the other plate tank classes.Thank-you again everyone for participating in this very helpful and informative post! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Case21

04-30-2008, 12:35 PM

"DPS: SK as a class should be able to do more damage than Guardians and be about par with Berserkers, since we sacrifice "defensive" type abilites for self healing and encounter / blue AoE Spell damage."I agree.Changing Relentless Hunger and Unholy Arms to proc on all types of attacks, and doing SOMETHING with Harm Touch to make it viable are both needed.Other then reworking one of our AA lines (Wisdom) the only way to up our DPS would be by adjusting the numbers on our Spells/CA's. Giving us bonuses for using a 2hander really wouldn't change anything, as we won't be using the 2hander to tank.While its not related to DPS you do mention bumping up Siphon Hate a few % and that would certainly be nice."we need to be able to provide benefits to group / raid members for be around and not tanking. "I hear this all the time and I will proably never agree. If we aren't MT or OT we shouldn't be in the raid. We should be sitting for an actual DPS or Utility class. If they ever adjusted our DPS/Utility to the point where we were desired over scouts, mages, or monks for a non-tanking role, then they would rightfully have to take away some of our tanking ability.One suggestion I defiantely didn't like was swapping INT for STA on Lucan's Leadership. STA is good for everyone, INT is not. Most of the raid members who benefit from INT are already going to be capped.Anyway nice job w/ this thread guys. Keep it going. It will be interesting to see what comes from it.

Skar

04-30-2008, 09:16 PM

While you update:Lucans Leadership.... its not BoE, and the argument of players being BoE capped doesnt apply to it really. It actually increases the MAX spell damage by X amount, increasing the range of damage a spell can do. Would be much hotter for us if it increased the Base damage as well, which would in turn up the affect of our personal BoE mod capability as well. Or even better, change it to a flat 5% spell dmg (base and max) increase raidwide.

Darkc

05-01-2008, 01:57 PM

I added a few suggestions. Skar, you're absolutely right about Lucan's Leadership. I revised the wording of the suggestion, thanks! As for utility vs tanking, most raid encounters in EQ2 require only 1 tank. Yes, there are Avatars and other similar encounters (OK, Thuuga,etc) that spawn adds that must be dealt with and we specialize in such encounters... but with 2 other tanks that specialize in such fights as well (arguably 3, guardians with Agi line), we need some kind of utility to justify having us in place of OR along with the other viable options. In EQ 1, we had the whole puller thing going for us... there's no pulling in EQ2. Whats funny is that we were pretty much in the same boat until we got some utility lines added.

Tiberuis

05-01-2008, 06:55 PM

I think most Raiding SK's (or want to Raid SK's but can't get invited) would be happier if our offensive stance Raid DPS was higher than a Guardian's, seeing as they are by far the best raid MT in the game...Or perhaps if our Raid DPS was higher or PAR with a zerker, seeing as they are the first choice for Raid OT due to snap aggro control, higher dps, mitigation and hit point advantages, etc.I was very encouraged reading the interview with the Devs excerpt from EQ2 Flames about the possibility of Crusader Itemization addressing a combine of spell/melee dmg. adds...any DPS increase at this point would be a welcome step in the right direction in terms of balancing the SK vs. the other plate tanks classes...And as far as Raid Utility goes, it is my personal hope that some of the Raid-Wide and Raid Group buff enhancements in this excellent compilation post of yours will see the light of day...this is much more important to the SK class IMHO than simply addressing Raid DPS as a band aid...<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Barthalemeou2

05-02-2008, 03:26 PM

Bloodletter-Fix it so that it cannot be dispelled, or if it is dispelled allow it to be cast during combat. Darkeshadow-Guk Server-Fire of Heaven

Jerma

05-04-2008, 01:00 PM

I think this has been one of the best threads outlining the many things the SK class needs to be put on par with other fighters. Heck even Gnorbrin liked lol, usually he is just mad at us for gettin nasty in the forums <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Anyway good job on the thread. Although im not gonna hold my breath, but hopefully it will get the attention of the devs and some changes will be made.

DarkSaven

05-04-2008, 01:59 PM

For the most part I agree with the input from concerned SK's with the choices of correcting and improving our class. (All input here is for a PVE SK) - though i am opposed to duel wield thinking it would be combersome to use while casting. I will not go into the excellent notations on the needs of areas already brought up for correction "raid wide", "Defensive stance", etc. Nor the need to have better armor more atributable to OUR class, Our Epic Weapon, ETC..........I would like to add perhaps a couple of things i think would possibly help the class in general. Though the increase in basic spell damage has been noted. It would also serve us well if we would get another choice for final ends in our Shadowknight Tree (presently only have 3 choices and almost all other classes have 4 or more - excluding Monks). This perhaps could give us a similar ability like "Forceful Casting" that would alow us not to be interupted casting spells. Along these lines damage from our spells perhaps could be added with a siphon of power distributed to Group. As with Some Tank Classes. possessing the ability through AA line of double attack on mele, We as Caster/Tanks should be able to Double Cast or at least an after effect of our spells. possibly the end line in "Int. Tree" would be a good area to enhance this choice ability. Or better yet get rid of the Heal Crit in Wisdom line and put it there as a perm buff.Our dumbfire pets could use a bit or work as well. If they are OUR past foes we call up to help us then they should be as close to our past foes we have killed. (not saying they should be epic helpers that is just beyound the bounds of sanity). But they shouldn't be as weak as they are either.We are Knights of Death and Decay - and though most think of Knights as being "Western Culture" classes, Remember that The Eastern counter parts Were; Bow shooting, Double wielding, Armorclad, Artisans of Death - Both ahorse and afoot - read some Chinese and Japanese tales of war. Even our SK helms are more like Eastern knights than the Western iron-heads. Well thats my nickle's worth......... And I hope the fine work from all the SK's here are not falling on deaf ears and cold hearts

Charnelle

05-05-2008, 04:45 AM

<cite>Ashdaren wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here are my A,B,C and why D A : SK have no Role - Guard Berserk are the Raid Tank and out dps SK - Bruiser Monk are better DPS than Brigand, though can't be raid MT - Paladin are wanted for hate management and with the new epic (10% dmg returned as life + 10% mitig + shield buff) are just as potent Raid Tank - All Mage DPS, All healer heal, All scout DPS+debuff Everyone can fill an interchangeable role BUT tank, only one tank is ever used. So i ask, what an SK bring to the table when they don't MT which they CAN'T do.Nothing, not even DPS!Suggestion, but other might have better suggestion, 2 easy guess : make us do good dps, or be good tank. B : The class does not scale like others It is hard to understand why at low lvl SK have high DMG, Drain abilities while at T8 their spells are subpar. Exemple, no melee attack hit for more than 1k, where other tank get this, spells don't hit over 1k even with crit beside one spell with 2sec cast time Drain don't scale as one would expect alike the Paladin Heals.C : We have no buff to help tankingNote : we have good survivavibility buff, i like it a lot, but as in 2005 avoidance wasn't making bruiser tank, survivability doesn't make me tank, it help me play with death better, but i still end up dying since i'm not geared enough for my job.The bad points : - defensive stance with only +DEF skill (where warriors get parry) - no temporary defense buff, like lal other tank get - no AA geared toward tanking (shield for paly) - no epic for tanking (while other epic totally break the game)As a side note, we have our healing but, it doesn't scale and the cast time are outrageous for the benefits. This is an axe of enhancement on itselfHere comes the D : far from wanting a wish list, I would just like the caveats to be filled so we can find our place in this game like we once did. Mortigan 80 SK Nagafen</blockquote>Good post, though you forgot something, what aboutD: SK lacks DPS - give them stronger spell and for melee the ability to dual weild?

Gehemnishthex

05-05-2008, 02:33 PM

What's with the fascination with duel wielding. I'm happy with 2 hander or sword and shield. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />Improvement wouldn't hurt, but leave the duel wielding to the other warriors.

Darkc

05-05-2008, 03:40 PM

I've rather stick with the "2h equals DPS, 1h / Board = tanking" system myself... but some where along the lines I think it was forgotten that it's Crusaders that typically use 2her's and Warriors very rarely use them. With this in mind, itemization on 2h'er still seems to target "warriors". Not commenting on VP / Avatar drops, but "decent" t1 - t3 2h'ers all lack INT. Also the procs should be Divine or Disease based, which is also not happening. Base Spell Mods? +DPS (a stat we usually have in short supply)? Double Attack? Where are those found on 2h'ers? The funniest of the bunch is "tanking" 2h'ers. Why would you want tanking stats on a 2h'er if they're usually used for DPS, non tanking situations? I understand the need for tanking stats to help out if running an Instance that you're pretty much overgeared for... but if you're sacrficing DPS on the weapon for it to be more "Defensive", then why not use Shield and Board? IMO Crusader ONLY weapons should have DPS mods, DBL attack mods, procs on something that we debuff, etc. You know, stuff to help us do more damage.

Ashdaren

05-06-2008, 06:02 AM

<cite>Darkc wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've rather stick with the "2h equals DPS, 1h / Board = tanking" system myself... but some where along the lines I think it was forgotten that it's Crusaders that typically use 2her's and Warriors very rarely use them. With this in mind, itemization on 2h'er still seems to target "warriors". Not commenting on VP / Avatar drops, but "decent" t1 - t3 2h'ers all lack INT. Also the procs should be Divine or Disease based, which is also not happening. Base Spell Mods? +DPS (a stat we usually have in short supply)? Double Attack? Where are those found on 2h'ers? The funniest of the bunch is "tanking" 2h'ers. Why would you want tanking stats on a 2h'er if they're usually used for DPS, non tanking situations? I understand the need for tanking stats to help out if running an Instance that you're pretty much overgeared for... but if you're sacrficing DPS on the weapon for it to be more "Defensive", then why not use Shield and Board? IMO Crusader ONLY weapons should have DPS mods, DBL attack mods, procs on something that we debuff, etc. You know, stuff to help us do more damage. </blockquote>if it was only a problem of itemization. We really do lack dps, spell dps

Riversideblues

05-06-2008, 02:53 PM

Warriors don't have to deal with half their spells being about to be interrupted.this needs to be looked at big time.Harm touch needs to not suck too, have it add a huge amount of hate or something as well

Seolta

05-06-2008, 04:30 PM

I know i'm REALLY late jumping in here, but had an RL tragedy to deal with etc and my head hasn't been in EQ2 at all in the last week or two.SO...gonna jot some stuff down and come back and re-edit as I get more time to go back over everything and also make sure i'm not just repeating stuff others have said already. 1. Raid Utility - Problem: We have nothing that sets SK's apart and makes us truly valuable to a raid from a utility standpoint.Some Suggestions(will be adding to these if I get the time/motivation):<ul><li>Add a cure component and/or a manatap to Relentless Hunger</li><li>Drastically increase the effectiveness of our debuffing.</li><li>Raidwide Manasieve?</li><li>Replace the very unpopular "Decay" class AA line abilities with raid utility abilities. This would allow for a "raid utility" spec if you will.</li><li>Make Deathmarch scalable. The aggro component should be percent not amount based. Maybe also add an Aggro over Time component.</li><li>Make the Coil line(or several of our DoTs) into a Splurt type dmg(successively more dmg on each tick)</li><li>Give Insinuate a Splurt style effect for the Hate amount.</li><li>Add an avoidance siphon to Devouring Mist</li><li>Give Innoruuk's Caress a percent chance to riposte rather than just doing normal dmg.</li></ul>Devs: Good news! All of our problems can be fixed easily with adjustments to current Spells/AA's.

Nacho Cheese

05-06-2008, 08:57 PM

I am a 80/140 raiding SK. I am 90% fabled. Our guild has two MT's and I am one of them. We are currently at the tail end of tier 2 and I am beyond frustrated. My guild mates keep talking me out of quitting the game but I am very close to just doing it anyway. My main issue is Hate/Aggro. I always have a dirge in the MT group as well as either a Swashi, Assassin or Coercer for Hate Transfer and/or Mod. My hate mod is always well over 40% and I consistantly lose aggro. And when I lose aggro, the only way to get it back is for that person to die because my Rescue is always down from having to use it all the time. I have to spam all my spells till none are available to spam and still I lose aggro. It's almost impossible to manage power as well, when spamming spells to hold any kind of aggro. Our Guardian does not have this problem. Yes, he will lose the occational aggro to an "over achieving" guildie, but not near the rate to which I lose aggro. So the whole Raid force has to slow down their DPS, cause they know, the SK is MT'ing tonight. I can take a hit just as our Guardian can. My avoidance is usually over 70% depending on the Raid buffs for that night. So defensive tanking has not been a problem for me so far. Tier 3 might be a different story, who knows, but the aggro control has been ridiculous and embarrasing. And as our Raid forces DPS has been going up from gear upgrades, etc...., the more my SK aggro issue comes to the forefront. SK's need more tools for holding aggro because we can't compete in the "end game" as MT's... Whether better aggro control would come through increasing our DPS or increasing our ability to Siphon more hate, does not matter to me. Or maybe a little of both. But something needs to be done soon. I am losing the will to play.

Giral

05-06-2008, 10:58 PM

since Shadowknights are Plate tank's and aren't equal with other Plate tanks in fullfilling the MT or OT role these are the things that should be looked into first (IMO) Survivability, we just dont have anything to slow down the damage, we need something when we drop low on health to slow damage. if we die and bloodletter is up then we go back to full HP, but we quickly go back down and again have no way to slow the damage. Agro. when there are 3 other Plate tanks you dont have to wait to Dps with, and 3 other plate tanks you dont have to control your agro as much, and 3 other plate tanks that dont lose agro as often, there is no reason to use an Sk. Sk's need some tweaks to there Tuant over time to do increasingly more hate with a large burst of hate at the end of the tuant also to make up for the time it took to build the hate. if people have to wait around for Sk's to build agro for 8 to 10 seconds then they should get paid off in the long run with SK's having locked agro so well that its is extremely rare they ever lose it, and when they do they can get it back easier. (gave idea's earlier in the thread and explanations on why and how) Syphon Hate should be increased to be 10 % of group , when there are items and Gear in the game that give Better Group syphons then an Endline SK ability then Something is Wrong! DPS . i myself don't realy care about dps, i think eq2 has turned into DPS > ALL else, it's pretty lame, and a large reason for alot of the class imbalance , and lack of interesting encounters and challanges, once you have Enough dps you can pretty much go around any encounter without a Tactic, you just BURN = Boring, that said Shadowknights DPS is lacking in T-8 that is very obvious, and since we use DPS as Agro this is a Large issue . 2 Handed weopons need to be Increased. Double attack on them, all our spells need to be increased. and most of all our Dots should get larger with each tick and have large burst DPS on termination. (gave explainations earlier in thread on why and how) Agro/Dps . with tuant over time, spells getting interupted, unreliable agro tools like DM and DT and Rescue , we also should have our spell casts either seriously reduced in casting time , or have our spells almost impossible to interupt, we cant Attack then we cant build agro, we cant build agro = we suck Utility , Shadowknights are not about Helping others, there about using everyone to further there own Gains, we Steal mitigation form other Fighters, we Take other's Hp's when we die, we steal mit from mobs as well as power, etc,, No plate tank should be in a raid unless there MT or OT, raids shouldn't be forced to take a 3rd plate tank becuase they have a Utility . SOE need's to Step up and inform the SK community that Shadowknights always have and always will be Tanks. death march procing off any kill in a raid is fine. changing our raid wide buff is fine, but we shouldn't get Anything that guarantee's an Sk a spot in a raid becuase of a Utility. if Our dps gets increased to wear it should be then with some minor tweaks to our current skills(like above DM/raid wide.. then some sk's might get into Caster groups, but again it should just be a chance for a well played Dps'ing sk to prove that there worth taking for there dps and Dps increase in the mage group. Mythical , the Activatible on it is Fine, change the rest but Leave the Clicky, since its only a temperary weopon, we can get somthing in the next level increase to do somthing similar, but for now its a much needed tool for OT/MT Sk's , for the rest there is already plenty of threads on what to do to make it a SK Mythical. something that needs to be fixed = Bloodletter should Never get De-buffed, and when 2 SK's are in a raid They shouldn't cancel each other out . I MT raids when our guard isnt available, and if our Paladin isnt on to OT< then we use an SK as OT, once again Sk's get screwed becuase Only 1 Sk can have Bloodletter UP at a time, so the SK as OT cant use Bloodletter so his ONLY survivability Skill is taken away and the raid is punished once again for using Shadowknight's, this is totaly unfair, you can use 2 guards.2 paladins,2 zerkers and they dont have there Major survivability tools canceled becuase thereis 2 of them in a raid, so in this case only 1 Paladin should be able to use Amends in a raid , so the other paldins agro is horrible ???? looking forward to Minor tweaks and adjustments, Sk class does NOT need to be Re-vamped, we dont need ANY drastic changes to our abilities/skills/aa's, just some small changes and adjustments to make them a little better and more inline with other Plate tanks Skills/abilities/aa's . the Method Sk's use is very differant from other tanks, and we Like that aspect . it's what make's SK's fun to play, we aren't looking for Cookie cutter changes, please do not make any drastic changes, we don't need them. Sk's are Mt'ing and OT'ing in ROK, the issue is we aren't on an Equal playing field for it(and Far and away from guradians in survivabilty/agro/DPS) its MUch harder to do with an SK as a MT or OT , and the minor adjustments that have been suggested thru out this Post have given many many ways to take what we already have and Make it Better, give us the bumps we need in Survivability,Tuant over Time,DPS,AA's,utility. for us to be on par with our Counterparts, for us to be Equal, for there to be no reason NOT to use an SK as MT or OT. sure we wont survive as easily as a gaurd with Minor changes , sure we wont have UP-front hate with the Minor changes,sure our DPS will still be Dot/Spell/Melle based so we wont be great on fast fights,but longer fights we will be top dps of fighters. and tuant over time building larger hate so people get paid off for holding back with an SK , will be easier for sk's to get agro back if it gets lost(and this IMO is a large issue with SK's, once they lose agro they have a hard time getting it back, and if they DIE it's near imposible)

Nakash

05-13-2008, 08:16 AM

i almost forgot, please add revamp of mana sieve/mana siege to the list.It has already was made clear that the mana drain concept is not anymore in place (since mobs dont need mana to cast... long time ago)the mana reg from the spells was already a joke, if you compare it now to the amount of mana that can be made in T8 the spell does nothing.And this nothing has an own AA skill also. Either give it a really HUGE boost or revamp it to something other.

Darkc

05-13-2008, 11:21 AM

Updated List to include Mana Siege revamp. Would be nicer if it was a proc buff that triggered off spells imo. That way us "spammers" get more benefit. Also added +Heal, +Heal Crit. A lot of crusader gear has +heal on it, yet it does nothing to the heal portion of our lifetaps. Also, increased Heal Crits is part of our AA line even though it does nothing for us. It'd make since to make it so that the "Heal" portion of lifetaps can Crit AND be affected by +Heal. I'm not a big fan of having to going after even MORE stats to make us effective, but if we already get +heal / crit on some pieces, why not.

Tiberuis

05-13-2008, 11:43 AM

46 Suggestions so far, to improve and balance our class vs. the other plate tank classes, from our raiding SK community. Excellent thread DarkC, thanks again for compiling this. Lots of great ideas here.I would like to bring forward an Itemization suggestion for the SK Mythical. This is a thoughtful suggestion from Phank's thread comparing the SK Mythical to the Bezerker Mythical, and one that is definately worth bringing forward.Phank's idea was in response to the fact that the Bezerker Mythical effect is ALWAYS active. The SK Mythical effect relies on a complicated set of proc variables to actually work, which is totally gimped in comparison to the other plate tanks Mythical effects."Have Seething Hatred be a permanent effect (on SK Mythical) -OR- have the DAMAGE from lifetaps be applied as hate to targets."Who knows? If some of the suggestions on this thread are implemented, more SK's may get invited to raids, and actually have a chance of obtaining thier Class Mythical Weapon at some point.

Darkc

05-13-2008, 12:03 PM

I think the biggest issue with the Berserker Mythical is that the weapon pretty much says, "I now pronounce you... Plate Swashy". The SK Mythical still resembles a tanking weapon, and looks like it would be useful. There's some nice higher tier 2h'ers if we want DPS. Any SKs that have the Mythical care to comment on it? Does it work as intended (as a tanking / aggro tool)? Edit: Sorry, missed the Mythical Thread. So even though we lose health every few seconds due to Reaver, the Mythical is still not generating hate as it should?

Nakash

05-13-2008, 12:24 PM

<cite>Darkc wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think the biggest issue with the Berserker Mythical is that the weapon pretty much says, "I now pronounce you... Plate Swashy". The SK Mythical still resembles a tanking weapon, and looks like it would be useful. There's some nice higher tier 2h'ers if we want DPS. Any SKs that have the Mythical care to comment on it? Does it work as intended (as a tanking / aggro tool)? </blockquote>I am Offtank in my Guild. I use Mythical weapon for tanking only or swap it in to get aggro while using 2H. It gives additional hate for sure. On long time fights it adds a good amount off aggro. For snap aggro or mobs that memwipe often the proc works not well cause you have to time youre lifetapspells when it is up, which lowers youre dps and so youre aggro. The clickie is nice but because we lost HT as an snap aggro tool it only makes up a loss not giving us something new. Problems i see with it are: - It should have at leat one defensive Stat like +parry or +defense as a weapon made for tanking.- The extra hate should be permanent with no need to be lucky that it procs in the right moment.- The clicky works fine but i would like to see that it bind the mob for the full 8 seconds

jagermonsta

05-14-2008, 09:21 AM

Tissues, more tissues. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Gehemnishthex

05-14-2008, 10:58 AM

I wish we had a 'no interupts' AA like inquisitors do. maybe a replacement for the int one? =D

Phelon_Skellhound

05-18-2008, 12:54 PM

<cite>Darkc wrote:</cite> <blockquote>Utility: While on a raid, SKs will very rarely be the MT... thus we need to be able to provide benefits to group / raid members for be around and not tanking. Suggestions<ul><li>Raid wide Death March - extra DPS and Immunities can be a great tool if well timed</li><li>Death March Improvements - Ability to use while stunned / stifled / dazed to break Control effects.</li><li>Death March Improvements - Cause a raidwide kill to trigger "on the march", not just a group member</li><li>Death March Improvements - "On the March" buff grows in strength with mob type (solo, heroic, epic, etc.)</li></ul>Think Death March just needs to be updated as a 70+ spell. Reduced timer perhaps add reduced mana costs?AAs: Some of our AAs are outdated, especially the WIS Line. <ul><li>Nef Caress AA - Should increase Damage done as well as taunt</li><li>Wis Line - Increase Gains, add stats that help a Crusader (DA, Block%, Riposte, Spell DA, etc)</li><li>Agi Line - Remove Horse Mount Restriction, add bonus for single target (AoE Auto attack + DA for example)</li></ul>I would like to see Joust removed and perhaps a if Kite shield +aggression +threat or 2h +parry +defense type ability instead... no horseback restrictionDefensive: To be fair, with our AA Lines + 80 AT I feel our ability to OT and take on multiple encounters is pretty good. As mentioned, our Defensive stance can be a little better but it's more of a cushion than a necessity. Yes, we have to be pretty well equiped ... but that goes for every other fighter as well. I can add more if postedItemization: Too many good "Fighter" items that have the defensive stats needed to tank effectively, lack stats to increase our DPS / power pool / and aggro abilities. Suggestions:<ul><li>If a fighter item has +Melee, add +Spell Crit</li><li>If a fighter item has +CA, add +Spell damage</li><li>Add more INT to Fighter items!</li><li>We need a few GOOD Crusader ONLY items in reasonably attainable areas (t1 - t2). Items that add 8+ Double Attack, Base Damage increasers, +DPS Mods, 100+ Int, 100+ agi, Ward Procs, etc.</li></ul>Demonguard set pieces for Crusaders need to be looked at... more int, combat and spell damage needs to be added in order for it to be worth looking at. Can be seen here for reference...<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=411374" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=411374</a>I would like to see MC/Legendary T8 kite shields equal to T7 Tower shields (Fabled perhaps?) in protection and stats. Or perhaps bring it more in line with the T8 Tower shield in Mit and crusader stats to be crusader only. The Kite Shield was the furthest in shield progression we as crusaders could go before removing the limitation. I think this shield has too long been ignored.SK Mythical: While not owning it personally, here's some feedback from high-end raiding SKs on the Mythical... - It should have at leat one defensive Stat like +parry or +defense as a weapon made for tanking.- The extra hate should be permanent with no need to be lucky that it procs in the right moment.- The clicky works fine but i would like to see that it bind the mob for the full 8 secondsBeginning to see a trend that when dps'ing instead of tanking SK's are opting for another sword or 2h a tad mor oomph to it like increased +dps or reduced casting time?All I've seen in this post so far. Remember, this is about "Raiding" SKs... so keep the suggestions in that context. Yeah i know i keep mentioning the Kite shield but it was our shield early on in the game and trying to avoid comparing or asking for a similar line to the Warrior buckler line.</blockquote>

Tiberuis

05-18-2008, 03:44 PM

<cite>Khatiru@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>I would like to see Joust removed and perhaps a if Kite shield +aggression +threat or 2h +parry +defense type ability instead... no horseback restriction Yeah i know i keep mentioning the Kite shield but it was our shield early on in the game and trying to avoid comparing or asking for a similar line to the Warrior buckler line.</blockquote></blockquote>I really like the Kite Shield AA suggestion! Great fit for the SK mythos. You rarely think of Knights with a Tower Shield, or Buckler...just does not seem to fit the mythos...You consistently see in epic fantasy tales, and mythos, the Knight jousting or battling with a Kite Shield (just look at my sexah siggy by Crescendo of Everfrost...sweet eh?). I would absolutely love to see a Kite Shield line...absolutely fantastic idea Khatiru! What a great fit.<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Hamervelder

05-18-2008, 09:28 PM

<cite>Broccoli@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Warriors don't have to deal with half their spells being about to be interrupted.this needs to be looked at big time.Harm touch needs to not suck too, have it add a huge amount of hate or something as well</blockquote>The bolded portion is the single biggest problem with shadowknights, in my opinion. All of our cool toys (read: our big hitters) are spells, and it's frustrating to no end to get interrupted over and over and over. We excel at aoe encounters, but then again, we don't, because we're so susceptible to interrupts. And yes, the harm touch line is a joke. For being on a 15-minute timer, it deals relatively low damage, and is at times outright resisted or mitigated into uselessness.

Phelon_Skellhound

05-19-2008, 11:16 PM

Phelon_Skellhound

05-19-2008, 11:22 PM

<cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Broccoli@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Warriors don't have to deal with half their spells being about to be interrupted.this needs to be looked at big time.Harm touch needs to not suck too, have it add a huge amount of hate or something as well</blockquote>The bolded portion is the single biggest problem with shadowknights, in my opinion. All of our cool toys (read: our big hitters) are spells, and it's frustrating to no end to get interrupted over and over and over. We excel at aoe encounters, but then again, we don't, because we're so susceptible to interrupts. And yes, the harm touch line is a joke. For being on a 15-minute timer, it deals relatively low damage, and is at times outright resisted or mitigated into uselessness.</blockquote>Here another good point... what we need is more +focus on some of the equipment or crusader set pieces for itemization...

Darkc

05-20-2008, 02:17 PM

An abilitiy to stop a mobs self healing sounds good... as does more +Focus on items (or most +cast speed). I'll add those to the list.Something else I was thinking is, raid wise, the biggest issue we have is simply raid size. There's no reason to bring us along instead of another Bard, Enchanter, or even scout. So if there's a reason to have us or ANY class along for that matter, as opposed to a duplicate class that we so commonly see (raids with 3 dirges, or 2 bards, or 3 wizards, 2 brigands, etc.) then that would even out the playing field tremendously. Since this is most common with tank classes, I think one way to handle this is to give Fighters a "Leadership Buff". I know Sony tried this already with the raidwide buffs, but with the exception of the Monk ones they really don't help enough to make one of each fighter wanted. The Leadership buff would be tailor to the type of tank and classes that would most often be found in thier group. For example..SK - 10% Base Spell Damage Mod, 15% Cast Speed, 10% RecastGuardian - 5% Group aggro, 15% Cast Speed, 10% Heal Crit chanceBerserker - 10% Combat Art Base damage, 10% Recast, +5% Proc ChancePaladin - 15% Group Deaggro, 15% Cast Speed, 10% RecastNot set in stone... but something powerful enough to say, "Hey, it's better to have an SK in the caster group (Berserker in Melee) as opposed to a 3rd Illusionist". UPDATED Main list - if you got any other idea can you can properly reason out, please list.

HentaiB

05-20-2008, 05:31 PM

Buffs are not the way. Raid leaders take buff classes for that. We need to dps close to a brigand to get in raids unless we are MT or OT. Zerkers, monks, and bruisers can do this. We can not with the limitations of our class. Improve our dps by 50% in some way and all is fine. Do not use loot such as the jewel of animosity from SoH to improve our dps. This will also do a huge boost to any fighter class it only seems godlike for crusaders because we do not have a huge amount of double attack as the warriors do.The change needs to affect across all levels of SKs. Raiders, alts, instance players. We all need help.

Darkc

05-20-2008, 06:14 PM

If you think about it, you validated my arguement right there.... Bruisers and Berserkers do Brigand like DPS yet don't get in raids either. Give us (and them) a real reason to be included in a raid as opposed to a duplicate class and we're set. Problem is that nothing is ever that easy, cause then those "duplicate" classes start crying cause they've been replaced (because it's ok to need 4 bards, 3 enchanters... but 2 fighters, 1 brawler on a raid).

Darkc

05-20-2008, 06:41 PM

Actually let me break it down even better. The prefered class mix is actually pretty good except for the need (or desire) for extra Bards / Enchanters. Due to that need for those extra duplicate classes, certain classes need to be trimmed (24 classes = 24 spots, somethings gotta give) ... which = less spots for tanks, because for tanking most raids are fine with 2 or 3 of the possible 6. Lets look at classes that are "staple" to most non server limited raids... in no particular order. Please correct me if I'm wrong on these.Assassin = hate transfer, high DPS, poison buffGuardian = Best Raid Tank (most durable)Templar = Reactives, Sancuary, Sheild Ally, Mit / Wis DebuffsBrigand = High DPS, Best Mitigation DebuffsSwash = High DPS, Hate Tranfer, Offensive DebuffsDefiler = Best Single group Wards - not too sure on their debuffsMystic = Better at outside group healing / buffing, debuffsDirge = DPS buffs, CoB, Numerous other buffs, Power regen, DebuffsTroub = PotM, Aria, Numerous other buffs, power regen, debuffsCoercer = (Wasn't "staple" before, but I'm sure they will be a lot closer now) DPS buffs, Thought snap, best puller in game, mob reset, High DPS, power regen, Tash, numberous other buffsIllusionist = Time Compression, IA, High DPS, Tandem, numerous other buffs, Arcane DebuffsWizard = High DPS, Gift / Icicles, RaysWarlock = High DPS (Encounter especially), +Proc Buff, Malignant Blade?Fury = Lucid, Agitate buff, High DPS, good spot healsMonk = Good DPS, Good Tanking, Peel, Great Raidwide buffThose I would say are your "Staple" or found in most raid classes (with exceptions of course)Next we got useful, but can varies by raid force...Necros = High DPS, Debuffs?, Hearts, high power rezConjy = High DPS, Shards, CoH, Debuffs?Inquisitor = DPS buff, good healer, reactives, debuffs, Haste + Recast buffPaladin = Amends, Great Tank, Great Deaggro abilities, Holy GroundNow we have classes found in raids, but hurting for spotsWardens = Great Healing, nothing exciting buff wiseBerserkers = Good Tanking, High DPS, Berserk, lacking snap aggro. Bruisers = High DPS, Nice Raidwide, unfortunately not enough to knock off most DPS slotsShadowknights = Good Tank, DPS ok if highly optimized, Great Wis / Physical / Disease Debuffs, Death March?Here you have it... now raid wise what will make those 4 wanted as opposed more Bards and / or Enchanters?

Phelon_Skellhound

05-20-2008, 06:47 PM

Come to think of it.... maybe you can add +focus to our defensive stance too...I think u mean Disease not physical.... necros and warloks get higher dps cuz of our huge disease debuff

Darkc

05-20-2008, 08:05 PM

Yeah, I forgot about the disease debuff. We actually have a nice Physical debuff and the best WIS debuff in the game (that I can think of anyway). I added the +focus to the main thread, also added the idea of taking the "If under 50% restriction" off our AA starter.

skycruise

05-20-2008, 10:07 PM

I got my pain wrath (master I) to do 2600-3900 (3100 avg) or so regularly if I do the disease buff first, 2900 if no disease debuff is done. Tap Veins does 2K to 3K. (2600 avg) My disease debuff is the adept III but I have the AA line that increases the disease debuff amount by 40%.The high range occurs when I remember to do the disease debuff. I'm also a kerra, so we have a Claw attack which further reduces slashing/crushing/pierceing mit of enemy by 914 for 1 minute and does 949 dmg. recast of that is 54.5 seconds so it can always be up. I have not looked into it, but maybe some race has a debuff for disease mit, which might stack with the sk's disease debuff.

Shirodan

05-20-2008, 11:48 PM

I've never noticed a wisdom debuff making that large of a difference in resist rate or damage increase. Could just be for lack of observation though. I use it in conjunction with our AoE taunt/debuff regardless.

Tiberuis

05-21-2008, 11:18 AM

Some AA Line suggestions for helping raiding SK's :Crusader AA Line - Wisdom Line. Add Immunity to Spell Interrupts along with the Immunity to Fear modifier, to help Crusaders and Group Members that are Casters. Warriors don't need to worry about thier CA's constantly being interrupted, this would help to balance SK's vs. the other Plate Tank classes a bit.Members of a Caster Group in a Raid would love this as well, making SK's slightly more attractive to Raids.Crusader AA Line - Strength or Agility Line. Add a +Damage/+Avoidance modifier Bonus for using a 2 Handed Weapon. Like a Knight! Perfect for the SK/Crusader mythos.Crusader AA Line - Stamina Line. Add a + Block modifier Bonus for using a Kite Shield. Like a Knight! Perfect for the SK/Crusader mythos.These suggestions are to help balance the SK vs. the other Plate Tank classes, that all have superior tanking and DPS abilities.

Darkc

05-21-2008, 11:51 AM

Good ideas Tiberuis... I'm going to split the different categories into distinct threads (DPS, Defense, AAs, Utility, Itemization). I think this thread is getting too big and is easy to miss ideas and / or lose focus of issues with everything combined like this. I'll be doing this as time permits because I have real work to do lol. Thanks for all the ideas and posts!

Hamervelder

05-21-2008, 04:50 PM

<cite>Dekeon@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote>Buffs are not the way. Raid leaders take buff classes for that. We need to dps close to a brigand to get in raids unless we are MT or OT. Zerkers, monks, and bruisers can do this. We can not with the limitations of our class. Improve our dps by 50% in some way and all is fine. Do not use loot such as the jewel of animosity from SoH to improve our dps. This will also do a huge boost to any fighter class it only seems godlike for crusaders because we do not have a huge amount of double attack as the warriors do.The change needs to affect across all levels of SKs. Raiders, alts, instance players. We all need help.</blockquote>Again, the bolded portion of the quoted post is of utmost importance. The only supposed "raid fix" that we got -- replacing our self STR buff w/ a group +spell damage buff -- completely screwed solo and group players. Any change that benefits raiders while hurting everyone else isn't a benefit. The percentage of SK's who raid is very small, and the percentage of SK's who raid regularly is even smaller. Taking away anything, and I mean anything, from everyone else for the supposed benefit of those few was, and always will be, bad form.

Tiberuis

05-30-2008, 05:45 PM

Heyas DarkC, Looks like we are back to a single post, as per Rothgar's recommendations. Apparently the Dev's don't like multiple threads, too hard for them to track it all I guess.I think you did a wonderful job with this thread, and the catgorized compilations. And to all of you SK's that contributed to the research, identification of issues, and recommendations on this thread topic, thank you all very much. It is important for everyone's voice in our community to be heard here, even if we do not all agree on some of the mechanics.And to Rothgar and Aerlik and the Class Design Devs; this is the main thread for our class imbalance issues. Please sticky this thread, if you feel that is the best method for our community voices to be heard.(And please let us know whether or not you plan on fixing the SK class, if it it not too much trouble). <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Nero

06-07-2008, 01:52 AM

I agree the original post 100%.OP is very wonderful ideas.I hope strongly that Shadow Knight will be improved very well.

BoneSmasher

06-07-2008, 11:02 AM

As a guardian the majority of our dps increase comes from double attack plus crits. (With the right weapon, etc of course)I think the idea someone posted about giving you guys spell double attack would be perfectly in-line with your class type. It would be interesting to see how much DPS difference it made if you could get up to 98% spell DA with buffs and 50% spell crit with gear. Add time compression to that, or the defiler buff that reduces cast time, or troubadour buffs and that could be some serious DPS.If you were not tanking, i.e. in the mage group, so not getting interrupted so much, it seems that you could really get up there on the DPS parse with that ability.Just my two cents worth.And yes I have an SK too, and a berserker and a monk. lol

Nero

06-10-2008, 07:32 AM

How about adding EQ1's Clinging Darkness, Desease Cloud, Circlet of Shadow, Shadow Vortex to Shadowknight?How about improving Feign Death into EQ1's Feign Death?And how about improving Shadowknight's pet into EQ1's permanent strong pet?I remember the good old days of the strong and "hate gain master" Shadowknight of EQ1.Just a thought....

skycruise

06-10-2008, 11:35 AM

A Wrath Form would be neat instead of a Permanent pet. Similar to the workings of the ethereal form in loping plains. Your body is lying on the ground while you are fighting as another type of char.. then once that dies, you can wake up and start fighting as normal. That quest in loping plains was one of my favorites of all time. It seems to fit with a shadowknight as well..

Masoma

06-11-2008, 01:31 AM

From my perspective as a level 80 raiding SK in a casual guild here is what I experience. Since Guardians are the unsurpassed tanking class, our MT and OT are both guardians. Right now their survivability/aggro control/dps is unmatched by the other tank classes. Which leaves this SK as backup tanking help but my normal place is in the mage group in offensive stance doing mediocre spell and melee dps.To improve raid desirability, I favor boosting our dps/buff/debuff output instead of trying to get changes (aggro/survivability/dps) that allow us to equal guardian tanks in the raid setting. We need something quickly to keep the class alive. Changes in line with the battle mage image of the SK. A lot of good ideas have been mentioned (2-hander damage buffs, spell double attack, spell base damage increase, raid-wide Death March, etc). The mechanics of how it is done I leave to Sony. That it needs to be done, there is no doubt. Fighter class balancing I can wait for but as of right now the SK's have an immediate need for raid utility and it seems to me that dps/buffs/debuffs would be the easiest way to a quick, workable fix. as Woeman on Everfrost80/140 SKMaster Weaponsmith/400 Tinker

Skar

06-13-2008, 05:35 PM

Base spell and combat art damage needs to be increased, significantly. The crits we have are good, but because of the low base damage, its almost required that we have our INT line to be effective at all. This would help significantly with our +spell and +ca mods. Lucan's Leadership should increase the base spell damage also, not only the cap. Once again would help across the raidforce. Defensive setup (which is another area we have trouble with ... ie using a shield), a double attack AA line (think guard buckler spec) except make it with a kite shield. We need more melee based proficencies while tanking to consist with the MT/OT group setup (not spell oriented) - this would be very helpful imo.

Margen

06-13-2008, 08:21 PM

I totally agree with your first two post, Spell/CA damage needs to be upgraded BAD. Specially death tickle, I've had too many times when that thing does something like 7k and its on a 13.5 min timer, talk about underpowered. I also like the change you suggested in Lucan also.Its the DA I not sure of, I personally think that is in the realm of warriors now that I put some thought into it. Mind you if its that or nothing I will take that ). The idea of Spell double attack I like because I think it falls more into the SK idea (but first they have to increase the damage our spells actually do to make it worth anything). I would like somethig to increase our focus also, its really a pain trying to cast the 1 or 2 second spells when getting your head bashed in.Also replace the wisdom on our defensive stance with SOMETHING of use, if they don't want to give us block or parry, how about a greater chance to Risposte (Sp?) or a pct chance to avoid a spell. In its current form its kind of sucky.Then we also have some AA issues, the one we steal mitigation from another fighter is stupid, how often do you run with other fighters in groups, and in raids, unless they improve our agro/survivabilty we aint going to be taking the MT spot most nights. Also does anyone put more then the three points into the Death tickle aa, just enough to get to tap veins cast reduction. Plus the Agi and wisdom lines are weak also.There is lot of things we need help with right now, wish they had a clue and would actually look at us. Ok Guardians are the best at taking damage, I've come to accept that (dont' like it but accept it), but its is totally unbalanced how much dps they produce in comparison to us.

Tiberuis

06-17-2008, 09:41 AM

<cite>Blackoath@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I totally agree with your first two post, Spell/CA damage needs to be upgraded BAD. Specially death tickle, I've had too many times when that thing does something like 7k and its on a 13.5 min timer, talk about underpowered. I also like the change you suggested in Lucan also.Its the DA I not sure of, I personally think that is in the realm of warriors now that I put some thought into it. Mind you if its that or nothing I will take that ). The idea of Spell double attack I like because I think it falls more into the SK idea (but first they have to increase the damage our spells actually do to make it worth anything). I would like somethig to increase our focus also, its really a pain trying to cast the 1 or 2 second spells when getting your head bashed in.Also replace the wisdom on our defensive stance with SOMETHING of use, if they don't want to give us block or parry, how about a greater chance to Risposte (Sp?) or a pct chance to avoid a spell. In its current form its kind of sucky.Then we also have some AA issues, the one we steal mitigation from another fighter is stupid, how often do you run with other fighters in groups, and in raids, unless they improve our agro/survivabilty we aint going to be taking the MT spot most nights. Also does anyone put more then the three points into the Death tickle aa, just enough to get to tap veins cast reduction. Plus the Agi and wisdom lines are weak also.There is lot of things we need help with right now, wish they had a clue and would actually look at us. Ok Guardians are the best at taking damage, I've come to accept that (dont' like it but accept it), but its is totally unbalanced how much dps they produce in comparison to us.</blockquote>I love the idea of adding an AA Line that focuses on 2 Handed Weapons - perhaps with an end ability similar to the Illusionary Arm buff - adding a + Double Attack modifier. This would certainly help address the SK DPS issue, when using a 2 Hander in the Mage Group on a raid. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />And it would make us 2 Handed Weapon masters, reinforcing some much needed Shadowknight class identity.

Vaelaen

06-17-2008, 09:58 PM

as an sk, i like the idea of being able to tank in groups or being able to dps/support in groups and raids. as it is now, i have to keep my offensive stance up to be able to maintain agro. the defensive stance isnt even an option because of the loss of life tap power that reduces my chance of survivability. so to be able to tank in even a group setting, i need to be in offensive. as we know, you will not be able to tank a raid mob with the <30% avoidance most sk'a have in offensive, and our lifetaps will not make up whats needed on mobs that hit that hard. so our abilityie to tank a raid are poor.I think we need to have our ofensive and defensive stances overhauled. our defensive stance needs much more avoidance and agro moifiers, our offensive stance needs a larger increase in dps and a larger decrease in defense.defensive stance - i think this stance should offer great benefits for using a shield with + to blocking/ parry and give us a near 30% added avoidance. this stance should also give the sk a taunt capability to counteract the loss of dps (it would be nice if sk's would get an amends like taunt only usable with this stance). I think the offensive reduction of the current defensive stance is in line. the outcome of this stance is to make the sk a good tank with a good mitigation to dps ratio grealy leraning on the mitigation side. i think with this stance, an sk should be able to tank a raid mob. maybe not the best, but good enough to be considered.offensive stance - i think this stance should offer great benefits for using a two-handed weapon with + to melee double attack and greatly increased spell damage and combat art damage. the defensive loss on this stance should be significant enough that the sk will not be a viable tank in either a raid or group setting. this stance could shapechange the caster to an appropriate look (spector?), or something along the lines of the defilers mist (maybe in black?). the outcome of this stance is to make the sk a viable dps solution with the mitigation to dps ratio greatly leaning on the dps side. in our current state sk's deal decent dps for a tank, but not enough dps to br considered for a raid dps spot. i think this type of stance would make an sk a viable option for a raid dps roll.. not the best, but viable.I know this looks like i want the best of both worlds, but right now the sk has no world at all... most of us are confused as to what we are supposed to be doing. by making our stances very clear cut, i think it will ultimately give us a place in most situations.I love the feel of my sk, so i figured i would throw my 2 cents in to make him a respected class.

Nakash

06-20-2008, 08:27 AM

Just pops to my mind after i read that bards can use there buffs now on the run.- Allowing us to cast our all spells again on the run (was pre LU13 this way) would make some things easier for us.at least for the PVE Servers if SOE dont like it for PVP.

Solarax

06-23-2008, 05:48 PM

ok my overall thought while signing the fix SK's thread.i started an SK without doing any research on them or pallies.i did this for the reason that this would be my twink and not something i would bring to guild to play but to get away from the guild untill i have solod to my hearts content.now know that i have been playing since eq1 beta so you would think i would be used to class imbalance.well over the course of playing my SK and enjoying him i noticed that as the levels went up i had fewer and fewer SK's to talk to so i started looking for high end SK's and only found a few which where friends from guilds .i asked around for opinions on stuff and the very first thing i noticed was that 80% of the people i talked to had pretty bitter attitudes and 60% of them said at about 67 i should switch to pally if i wanted to continue to play .it got me curious so i started looking on the boards and since i have a ways to go before i get my twink up there i figured i would see why everyone was so bitter. i installed act again and started going out and grouping. had a lot of fun again for a while but noticed the higher i went the less fun it was and noticed a lot of people would not invite saying and i quote" waiting on a pally"generally i dont like to compare classes ( mains include high end necro and conj and i play them for diferent reasons ) but i started doubting so i got into the [Removed for Content]mode .then i took a look at the game overall and noticed some things.part of our problem isnt that we are broken ( i noticed this and have lots of numerical data) its that certain classes get helped out by SOE more than others and it is pretty [Removed for Content] disheartening to know that EVERYONE knows it to the point of the general population wont even consider me for a group when i have more mitigation ( remember this is a twink with thousands of plat invested in him in gear and every single master) more damage and aa and skill etc etc .so im wondering if there is any higher up dev that actually plays an SK in a real game situation and not just to test some mechanics ( we know they dont do that or they might fix some of the blatant flaws)i bet if some more devs played and brought the SK vision back ( need some motivational words here) they might see how utterly hurtfull thier attitude has become on the class as players adopt the same stance but reverberate it a thousand times over.ok now off my soap box please give us a leg up and fix us

Nero

06-25-2008, 08:46 AM

How about making SK's reactive heal(Life Pact, etc) permanent and passive, not temporary(24 seconds)?This may help SK's survivability.Just a thought.

Nero

06-27-2008, 09:55 PM

With 2 handed weapon, crusaders should have same protection, same status up, and same proc as 1H weapon and shield.Or with 2H weapon, crusaders should have merit equal to 1H weapon and shield.For example, very good parrying and very nice evasion of Samurai of Ultima Online.

Giral

06-28-2008, 03:47 AM

all they realy need to do is remove the Dumb stances from the game, they never should have implimented them, now instead of having 6 tanks to balance, they have 12 tanks to balance(6 offensive and 6 defensive) then Sk's Zerkers can go to Fully offensive Tanks, and they can create Gear and weopons to play up these roles for Dps or Tanking, sure ill take a 2 handed weopn with a Kite shields potection on it , over a Tower shield and a 1 handed pokersecondly they need to make paladins Amends Single target DPS class Only : ) /hehe ,,, why the HELL do we have 3 AE tanks ? i thought Sk's and Zerkers were the Ae Tanks ? NOPE paladin is Ae and Single target Agro King Guard/Paladin single target Agro and Sk/Zerker AE Agro , atleast how it should be (and with all the paladins Ae's " 8 " i believe (more then Sk's have) even without amends they should be able to hold decent agro on Ae encounters, Amends single target and Use your Skillz to hold Ae agro (Sk's do it without Amends <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) Guards need a good swift kick in the Nutz (unbuffed and no gear on of course : ) just sayin : P Syphon Hate needs to be 10 % of group hate, 3 % as has been said countless times is Not noticable (and many think it either doesn't work at all OR that it actualy creates Agro issues with certain classes)

Phank

06-28-2008, 11:04 AM

Instead of getting what the Warriors already have (i.e. DA AA lines) give us something unique like a Rupture line where a % of our melee attacks cause the mob to bleed over time. At first I thought this could be a 2H ability but seeing the state of 2Handers in the game, let's make it Ruptured with all melee attacks. The more points put into it would be a higher %. 5/10/15/20/25% chance of a bleed.

Margen

06-28-2008, 11:42 AM

<cite>Phank wrote:</cite><blockquote>Instead of getting what the Warriors already have (i.e. DA AA lines) give us something unique like a Rupture line where a % of our melee attacks cause the mob to bleed over time. At first I thought this could be a 2H ability but seeing the state of 2Handers in the game, let's make it Ruptured with all melee attacks. The more points put into it would be a higher %. 5/10/15/20/25% chance of a bleed.</blockquote>I give you Kudos for thinking outside the box, but I do see problems with it. First you know it would be a weak dot, we have plenty of those already and our dps still sucksSecond we need controlable dps, not procs, I want hard hitting spells that grabs the mobs attention and holds it. Our dps is supposed to be how we control hate, but its lacking (as has been stated so many times). Since spells take longer to cast then warriors CA's they should do a lot more damage, and we should control our dps, not a RNG.I do agree that Two handers need a major revamp, they are just way too weak.

Tiberuis

06-28-2008, 03:32 PM

<cite>Blackoath@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Phank wrote:</cite>First you know it would be a weak dot, we have plenty of those already and our dps still sucksSecond we need controlable dps, not procs, I want hard hitting spells that grabs the mobs attention and holds it. Our dps is supposed to be how we control hate, but its lacking (as has been stated so many times). Since spells take longer to cast then warriors CA's they should do a lot more damage, and we should control our dps, not a RNG.I do agree that Two handers need a major revamp, they are just way too weak.</blockquote>/agreeNo more weak dots. They are not effective for snap aggro, and quick fights. As a plate tank, we NEED effective aggro tools for quick battles and quick mobs grabs. The most logical way to approach this is snap DPS.-Harm Touch - decrease re-cast timer, increase damage. Simple and logical.-2 Handed Weapon Bonus for Crusaders - Increased Double Attack. Simple and logical.-Increased base spell damage, to make up for our long casting time and constantly having our spell casting interrupted while tanking. Simple and logical.It's time to put the "Shadow" back in to the Shadowknight class. Increased DPS = Increased Aggro Control = More Viable Tanking for Shadowknights. Simple and Logical.Looking forward to the next GU <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Mistmoore-Milaga

06-29-2008, 07:30 AM

<cite>Darkc wrote:</cite><blockquote><ul><li>Relentless Hunger and Unholy Arms to proc off all attacks, not just melee</li></ul>RH, yes. UA, well, I'm happy with it off melee.<ul><li>Focus Mod: We have spells interrupted too often</li></ul>Speak for yourself.<ul><li>Increase Base CA / Spell Damage and/or Add Crusader only items that are reasonably attainable with an increase.</li></ul>I think that suggestions for itemization should really be kept separate from suggestions for classes. Devs can choose to solve problems with a class with itemization, but for the general populous this isn't the best way of fixing things.<ul><li>Reduction of the Harm Touch Recast</li></ul>HT is an additional Rescue that can be used to slightly improve your zonewide DPS. I would not compare it to anything else, least of all CAs that can miss their target and stifle their caster. I'm done comparing HT to other abilities. I don't see changing this ability having that great an impact on our class, nor would I want any change that does have a great impact on our class to befall our harm touch.<ul><li>Harm Touch: Add a 5% chance to inflict 40% Damage to a Heroic or 30k to an Epic</li></ul>Not necessary.<ul><li>Decrease recast on some of our fast "nukes" and Melee "Pariah Brand" line and/or up the damage to compensate for its slow recast.</li></ul>Why? I am wondering what the reason for this is.<ul><li>Add a Bonus for using 2h Weapons - I like the idea of it being linked to Offensive Stance... Be it extra Hit Rate, Double Attack, Haste, +DPS mod, etc.</li></ul>This is an Achilles heel here, I'll agree that something must be done but I do not like the idea of tying a stance to a weapon. That cuts out some of our flexibility.<ul><li>Pet - Make it permanent or up it's hit rate vs raid mobs + survivability. Maybe add an AoE nuke if it dies?</li></ul>Mixed about this one.<ul><li>Offensive Stance - Our Primary DPS stats are INT and STR - it should have both.</li></ul>Not necessary.<ul><li>Offensive Stance - Add more Offensive stats (+DA, +DPS, +Spell DA, +DPS, +Riposte, etc)</li></ul>Be sure to clear this one with the other fighter classes, will ya?<ul><li>Defensive Stance - Not sure what can be done about this to make a real difference. Part of the problem is that it doesn't do enough defensively for us, so maybe add some Shield %Block... but at the same time we lack the DPS to hold aggro while in Defensive since our DPS IS our aggro. Maybe add some kind of +hate position proc? Crusaders can get some sort of "Medium" stance like Brawlers do so we can save Defensive for only absolute emergencies. </li></ul>Ditto.<ul><li>Defensive Stance - Add Riposte to the Defensive Stance</li></ul>Ditto.<ul><li>AA line to get added Double Attack - Maybe linked to using 2h'ers... kind of like how Warriors get 60% DA if they use 1h / Shield. </li></ul>I can't argue with something that basically says we should do more DPS, but I can argue that this needs to be thought through a little more.<ul><li>Take the "If Under 50%" restriction from our Focus AA Buff</li></ul>Agreed.<ul><li>Raid wide Death March - extra DPS and Immunities can be a great tool if well timed</li></ul>Think this one through. A raid-wide Death March is insanely powerful. In some situations this will be the single most powerful buff in the game. Be careful clamoring for this, because you'd have to pay for it with something.<ul><li>Death March Improvements - Ability to use while stunned / stifled / dazed to break Control effects.</li></ul>Too powerful.<ul><li>Death March Improvements - Cause a raidwide kill to trigger "on the march", not just a group member</li></ul>Again, in some situations this will be really powerful. We need to think about this.<ul><li>Death March Improvements - "On the March" buff grows in strength with mob type (solo, heroic, epic, etc.)</li></ul>Too powerful.<ul><li>Lucan Leadership - Change +spell damage to 6% Base Damage. </li></ul>Too powerful.<ul><li>Lucan Leadership - Change +sta to +Int... or just add +Int. </li></ul>Why?<ul><li>Lucan Leadership - Add the +Str back to it</li></ul>Why?<ul><li>Relentless Hunger - Procs off all Attacks</li></ul>Agreed.<ul><li>Debuffs - Add Magic + Poision to our Encounter Debuff (though not opposed to all spell types)</li></ul>Why? I disagree here.<ul><li>Debuffs - Despoiling Mist... a) fix it to do what the description says b) Reduce the cast time / recast... great debuff, but we waste alot of time casting it (unless we cast during Death March) and it gets resisted a lot, so then we get to recast it again or just skip it. Should be on the same cast / recast timer as the Templar Physical Mitigation Debuff. </li></ul>This is an incredibly powerful debuff and doesn't need touching. I don't feel we "should" do anything just like a Templar does.<ul><li>Our Wis AA Line - make the effects stronger, like upping everything to 5% and adding Recast + SPELL DA</li></ul>Agreed. The Crusader WIS AA line is pretty weak.<ul><li>Group Lifetaps - With all the Bloodthirsty Chokers around now, maybe expanding our +Heal AAs to include Group.</li></ul>What +heal AAs? That's not what we do. We shouldn't help healing at all.<ul><li>Cures - A Group Noxius Cure would be in line with our "class" & extremely helpful on quite a few fights.</li></ul>Wrong. No fighters or even scouts have a cure. You are suggesting we get a group cure? Do you realize what we would have to give up for that? No. No frackin' way.<ul><li>Siphon Hate - returns are too low... should be bumped up. </li></ul>This is a good AA, but I agree that it could be made better.<ul><li>Mana Siege - Returns are too small compared to our power consumption. Plus scale up a bit better or change the spell to be a proc / tap / etc.</li></ul>Mana Siege is a tap. Also, it's a minor help to our power pool, but it works well how it is.<ul><li>Ability to stop raid mobs from self healing if a raid member dies for a limited time</li></ul>I'm sorry, what? I am starting to think this is all a joke.<ul><li>Leadership Buffs - Fighter buffs that are group only and are POWERFUL enough to justify having them in a specialized group as opposed to another duplicate class. </li></ul>Such as?<ul><li>Defensive Stance - Needs more "Avoidance" type stats... maybe +Agi, +Block, etc.</li></ul>Again, discuss this with other fighters please.<ul><li>Lifetaps that turns into wards sounds like a great idea, not sure how it would work out coding wise... An ability that acts like "roll over minutes" and maybe turns 2k - 3k of your lifetaping at full health into a ward would be great though.</li></ul>What? We're Shadowknights. We lifetap, not ward. No.<ul><li>Increase the strength of lifetap Heals to match the damage inflicted. </li></ul>Too powerful.<ul><li>Heal Crits - They should effect healing AFTER our spell crits. Give us some use for it.</li></ul>Getting heal crits and spell damage crits just for increasing your spell crits isn't powerful enough for you? Don't get greedy, you will hurt our cause.<ul><li>+Heal - Many Crusader items have +Heal, so wouldn't it be fair if it affected our lifetaps healing portion and scaled up with Crits?</li></ul>No, it wouldn't. That's an itemization problem, not a class problem.<ul><li>If a fighter item has +CA, add +Spell damage</li></ul>This is the smartest idea you have had. The devs seem to agree with you. And, this should go for all items, lets not forget our hybrid brethren, the bards.<ul><li>Add more INT to Fighter items!</li></ul>Agreed. Everyone can benefit some from INT anyway.<ul><li>We need a few GOOD Crusader ONLY items in reasonably attainable areas (t1 - t2). Items that add 8+ Double Attack, Base Damage increasers, +DPS Mods, 100+ Int, 100+ agi, Ward Procs, etc.</li></ul>A T2 item that adds +8 double attack? No. For the love of Thule no. What kind of raiding did you say you did?</blockquote>While I'm not surprised this thread is still going, I am a little disappointed. Some of these ideas are interesting, and I agree with, but for the most part I think they are way off. I didn't intend to respond to this thread since I rarely read the boards and can't defend my opinions. But I have been working for the last week on a list of suggestions of my own which I intend to post here. I suppose I have been working on it for more than a week since I've been playing an SK since day 2 and a raiding SK since T5.I just wanted to get on the record my stance on these suggested class adjustments. I don't plan on adding any more to this post, so if you must have some closure you can reach me at Mistmoore.Milaga, or just join guk.sk to talk about it, since I'm always there when I'm online.Flame on.EDIT: Edited to make easier to read.

Vaelaen

06-29-2008, 11:34 AM

the problem is that none of us really know what needs to be done to straighten out our class... we can only offer our suggestions and maybe it will spark an idea for one of the devs. when it comes to raids, we dont offer enough dps to be considered for a dps spot, and we can't tank raid mobs well enough to be an option there. therefore, we really dont have a spot in a raid that someone else could fill better. I just think that a tank should be able to tank regardless of peoples perception of how that class should be. the differences between sk, guardian, and monk should be based off of roleplay, not functionality. to fix that however, it would take a revamp of all of the classes giving them a very strong definition of what they are supposed to be doing in the game. I still think that a way around this is to have our stances be more clear cut. when in defensive mode, you are a great tank and bad dps, when in offensive mode, you are a great dpser and bad tank. with the sk's abilities being strong enough in either of those positions to be considered a viable option for those spots in a raid or group. this would make an sk an either/ or but not both class. on the other side (pallies), they should either be a great tank, or a great healer, but not both.sorry for rambling...

Phelon_Skellhound

06-29-2008, 01:10 PM

<cite>Milaga@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I'm not surprised this thread is still going, I am a little disappointed. Some of these ideas are interesting, and I agree with, but for the most part I think they are way off. I didn't intend to respond to this thread since I rarely read the boards and can't defend my opinions. But I have been working for the last week on a list of suggestions of my own which I intend to post here. I suppose I have been working on it for more than a week since I've been playing an SK since day 2 and a raiding SK since T5.I just wanted to get on the record my stance on these suggested class adjustments. I don't plan on adding any more to this post, so if you must have some closure you can reach me at Mistmoore.Milaga, or just join guk.sk to talk about it, since I'm always there when I'm online.Flame on.</blockquote>Just a reminder... Dev/moderator says "sorry all your threads are about griping and wining but no suggestions and you sk's will not get attention." We say fine lets start a grand list off suggestions that can offer the band aid we need. Lists have been done before and we got only the deaf ear. So ok lets do it again cuz maybe (I hope) someone is actually listening this time. This whole list is just that.... a list of things suggested by the community... We do not want everything on this list aimed at Raiding as a focus... at the same time it may help the non raiding core but not the original focus for this thread. I will agree as just about everyone here in the SK community will, that some/most of these are really not necessary (I won't say no to some minor tweaking) or less than great ideas or just flat out too powerful (+8 mellee crit DA on a T1-2 item is that maybe +3) or even aweful bad. The goal i am sure you know is to improve the viability of the raiding SK. Give us the utility we lack (umm FD to rez the healer after wipe?), the DPS we need (unless we get the group make up we need to succeed in this department - the kindness to give us the buff over a mage/scout, we are not gonna do well), the defining debuff or raid buff (we have em but nobody really cares because nobody notices - see dps), some ability that makes us even more tempting or arguable over another to get the raid spot (other than 23 folks showed you wanna come sir SK? - generalization).. I am very much interested to see your suggestions on how to patch the class up but what will be your focus: overall general, raiding, other? You were not that forth coming on what area of focus you were aiming at.For the record: I think we are fine in the solo and group area... maybe some minor tweaking but not much really.. Itemization is a huge failure in RoK and can solve about 90-95% of our problems, some of these suggestions have some real meat to em so keep em coming I say... I will not judge you

Nero

07-01-2008, 10:14 AM

We need not only DPS, but also Defence, especially avoidance.In RoK, avoidance is more important than AC.But SKs have only lowest avoidance(or 2nd lowest).We need Defence, too,Especially, avoidance is important as much as AC.If devs take a look into SK, please improve also SK's defence(AC and avoidance).PSAnd give us Stone Skin.In Rok, we are damaged over 10k by melee.So, is there any meaning of AC, mit, or reactive heal?So, give us Stone Skin by Combat Art or Item for only crusaders.

Nero

07-01-2008, 07:19 PM

Abstract of Defence.(1)High avoidance. We can't endure the lowest avoidance in fighters any more.(2)Stone Skin. In RoK, AC, mit, and our reactive heal have little meaning against Epic mob's attack. Stone Skin became most important.(3)Permanent and passive Reactive Heal the amount of heal of which are highly and greatly larger than now to survive Epic mob's attack(over 10,000).

Dead Knight

07-05-2008, 02:48 PM

I see the devs still haven't learned a thing. Got a 60 day free sub, not worth reinstalling I guess. GJ SoE.

Nero

07-05-2008, 06:06 PM

SK has very poor defence.Lowest avoidance in fighters, low hit points...etc.To fix this, I would like to propose that devs make "reactive heal shielding(ex. Life Pact)" permanent and passive. Not casting a spell per 15 seconds. This may help SK's survivability. Of course, the amount of the heal should be increased greatly to survive Epic mob's attack.And I would like to propose that devs add Stoneskin to SK. In RoK, stoneskin became most important. It is better that stoneskin is associated with "reactive heal shielding". For example, when SK reactive heal, Stoneskin will yeild at 3%. It is good that the probability of 3% can be increased by AA.Making an unnecessary addition, I would like to propose that Reaver will be made a raid-wide buff. And the heal amount of 2% of caster's hit points should be increased at least up to 5%. Because SK has only low hit points.

Hugsnkissums

07-06-2008, 03:11 AM

Stoneskin would be nice, but I think we'd have to give up WAAAAY to much for it. Reaver has the potential to be really nice, but as it stands is something you can live without. It doesn't really heal for much right now and the constant health cost only makes our damage absorbtion seem worse then it is...not to mention if you run OOP, now it's only hurting you more then anything. Personally, It'd be nice if they did something to it to make it more worthy of 20AA points.

Margen

07-06-2008, 10:50 AM

Lets be honest, for this expansion, all of the SK AA end abilities are sorry. I am still not convienced that our 3pct hate buff even bloody works. Pools of blood is ok, but having end mobs hitting for 8k makes its worth kind of mute in the end game. Reaver just doesn't make a big enough diffrence, even in group content, let alone raid.Make reaver have more umph, and for Gods sake please increase the hate buff to 10pct (and ensure it even bloody works).Plus some of our abilities in the lines need looking at. Change the HT one to either increased damage or substantial time reduction, a 1300 hp or what ever it is heal ever 15 or 13.5 mins just doesn't make a diffrence (plus actually increase the damage on the spell alot, Harm tickle is embarassing in its present form).The ability where we steal another fighters ac, seriously does anyone even use this. We will not be chossen for MT duties in raids and since there is only 2 to 3 fighters in raids now its useless. Even in a group, most groups are a single fighter and we are usually the last ones chossen even for that now days.Our AA lines need work this expansion. Fact is the only good thing I've found in this expansion for SK that is nice is bloodletter and they nerfed that from beta because some other fighter classes whined (likely guardians)Its amazing that the devs won't even admit we are hurting badly this expansion, when almost every player knows we are hosed.

Loxus

07-11-2008, 02:13 AM

Are you kidding me? I have an 80 SK from about 2 months from launch (started a ranger first, that was ugly) and pretty much played him faithfully until now. I've been reading the boards pretty much daily about SK problems and agree with them mostly except I think we are broken more than what the Raiding SK's admit, but not as much as the doomsayers claim which is usually where the true lies in most cases. About 3 weeks ago I started a guard just to see what it was like to play one of SOE's "golden classes" Granted he's only lvl 35 atm but leveling is pretty easy so far. I'm not claiming to be an expert in Guardians by any means. It might suck later, I don't know.What I'm absolutely shocked and awed about is the Guard's AA warrior line compared to the SK. Are you kidding me?! The end line wisdom ability is the removal of all penalties from offensive, Defensive stances and hunker down?! Not to mention increased Def ability, increased Crit (I think) or something. The buckler line (enuf said) and the str line?!After seeing this, my suggestions for the SK Crusader line are as follows. I'm sure people are going to say this is way overpowered but after seeing the Guard's, I honestly beg to differ. I also realize most of it has been said already so I don't claim ownership nor creation of the concepts, merely agreement.Add the same abilities as the Guards buckler line to Stam except make it kite shield with the end ability the 10 Sec DA. Crusaders should also get 55% increase to double attack in this line if sword and board are equipped and increase in block of 10% to 15%Wis line will be increased Dodge, parry, and defense if using 2 hander, with a 60% increase to damage using 2 hander. End line should be 100% double attacks if below 50% health using a 2 hander.Stances: Lose the wis and int buffs and add them to Lucan's leadership. Add increased Def, block, and spell crit to our stances.Death Touch should be dropped to 1 min recast with damage X2 max buffed hps. Hell, make it X3 max buffed hps consuming 50% max power.The hate "proc" on the epic needs to be a permanent effect, or Siphon hate needs to be increased to 5%The number increases are just numbers, and completely flexible to bring us in line with what a tank should be so don't get wrapped around the axle about the percentages and focus on the ideas of the additions. Lastly, stop calling Crusaders "hybrids" the concept of hybrids died in EQ1 during the release of the Planes expansion. SKs have zero necro abilities, we may share some spells that are similar, but all classes share some similar abilities. My case in point is the Ranger of EQ2, which by concept of "hybrid" should be a cross between a tank and a druid. How many healing / regen / damage shield spells do rangers have now?Basically I don't expect any of this to happen and hell I'll probably be flamed into activated charcoal about the post. Either way, I believe the Guard is my new main, if SOE wants to favor 1 tank over the other 5; I have no problem with that. I've come to the conclusion that the devs are either have no conceptual understanding of the Crusader and refuse to admit it or just don't care about the class.I apologize for this sounding as a negative post, it's just the frustration of seeing the concept of such a wonderful, well loved class crash and burn and we can't actively do anything about it. I'm tired of SOE's "silence is golden" policy. Active open communication is what leads to the best changes for the greater good of all. We're asking and trying to help provide feedback; where are you Sony?"Company leader to Raven, come in Raven" /breakCol Troutman, First blood."This is Major Tom to Ground Control, We're stepping through the door..."David Bowie, space oddity.

Tiberuis

07-11-2008, 10:46 AM

Fixing Reaver so that it is actually worth 20 points of AA is a great idea. As it stands now, it is pretty much useless most of the time.Avoidance remains a serious issue. SK's suck in Avoidance, we are dead last amoungst plate tanks.Stoneskin is always a nice "easy button" fix. And I wouldn't mind an easy button fix right now.Many SK's have posted recently that they believe our 3% Group Hate ability is broken. It shows actively in the UI, but I seriously doubt that it works. The SK Aggro situation is pathetic. Compare our Aggro abilities to ALL of the other plate tanks. SK's are dead last, again.Aeralik came out in a recent post on the zerker forums and clarified that the Guardian class is uber stank compared to the rest of the plate tank classes. OK, It is nice to know that SOE recognizes the sad state of the "3 other" plate tanking classes in this game right now. In particular the SK class.The question that boggles my mind completely is : why don't they help the SK class in an upcoming GU? A few minor tweaks to help our class out, while tanking revamps are in the works in the fall?All this crap about "not having time" to give a hurting class a few minor tweaks is straight up BS. Anyone that has coded a program before KNOWS that a few minor tweaks to a class in a game like EQ2 is really not that big of a deal, in terms of time or resources.All I can hear right now is "We know your class is under powered in tanking abilities, and WE DON'T CARE. We might fix it at some point before the next expansion. We might not. So roll a Guardian, and don't worry, be happy."Absolutely horrible customer care. Shame on you SOE.

Solarax

07-11-2008, 01:42 PM

well in case anyone ( dev) actually decides they are so bored that they will go slumming ( a once every 4 year event) and come to the sk forums, we should tell them what we dont want .for instance.we dont want any single item to be our class balancer.we dont want to be ignored ( oops that one was covered above)we dont want other classes to get items with effects that we have to spend aa to get making us uselesswe dont want to be told " sorry we dont take SK mains in our guild"we dont want to be told " no thanks we have a dirge that will tank for us" ( twice in one day)now if we can work around those things maybe soe can come up with something ...ok i really need to stop dreaming

Nero

07-11-2008, 09:42 PM

Shadowknight is unneeded and unwanted in raid. Especialy, in RoK.So, I have some suggestions for improving Shadowknight.Suggestions(edited in 23 July)A. DPS(1)Shorten the casting time of spells of crusaders. Same as 0.5 second like combat arts. Make the crusaders' spells special. Or make the crusaders' spells bigger damage appropriate to the long casting time. But the interrupts of the spells are undesirable. Because even one interrupt of a spell decreases DPS of the caster. Or change all the crusaders' spells to combat arts like Guardian.(2)Shorten the recasting time of "Harm Touch", and make the damage of "Harm Touch" bigger drastically. Make DPS of "Harm Touch" at least x5. For example, make the recasting time of "Harm Touch" 3 minutes.B. Hate Control(1)Make the hate gain amount of "Siphon Hate" from 3% to 5%. Make it appropriate to "Amends" of Paladin.(2)Add a new "rise of hate position" spell(like "Rescue", "Reinforcement" of Guardian, and "Holy Ground" of Paladin, etc) to Shadowknight. Make its recasting time quick(for example, 1 minute).(3)Improve "Innoruuk's Caress" for off tank. At least, make the hate gain amount of "Innoruuk's Caress" up to same as "Hold the Aggression" of Guardian.(4)Hate control of Shadowknight in EQ1. Improve Shadowknight's hate control up to Shadowknight's strong hate control of EQ1. In EQ1, Shadowknights were hate control masters. "Voice of Darkness", "Voice of Shadows" and "Voice of Death" in EQ1, etc.C. Defence/Survivability(1)High avoidance(parry, block, and riposte) at least same as Warriors.(2)High hit point.(3)Stoneskin: Stoneskin which Shadowknight can set in motion voluntarily(for example, "Tower of Stone" of Guardian) is very desired.(4)Improve "Reaver". Make the heal amount of "Reaver" from 2% to 5% of Shadowknight's HP. Further, make "Reaver" a new raid-wide buff. And make "Reaver" a normal spell, not Achievement. Instead, wipe out "Unholy Arms" and "Relentless Hunger", and make them other spell. Stoneskin is acceptable.(5)Make the reactive-heal shielding("Life Pact&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> a permanent and passive buff. Make the heal amount of "Life Pact" very large to endure Epic mob's attack.(6)A permanent and passive Stoneskin shielding like the reactive heal shielding. For example, 10% proc stoneskin. Or, at least, a new shielding different from reactive heal shielding is needed. For example, "Shieldskin", "Harmshield", "Steelskin", and "Banshee Aura" of EQ1. Or how about a permanent and passive shielding which halves the damage given by mobs? Like "Adrenaline" of Berserker.Therefore, Shadowknight's passive spells without AA are now Reaver, Reactive Heal Shielding, Stoneskin Shielding, Innoruuk's Caress.(7)"Divine Aura" of AA of STA line is a kind of Stoneskin. But not so useful in raid of T8. Remove the limit of "under 50% of max hit point of a crusader" of "Divine Aura". Increase Shadowknight's hit point. Make the duration of "Divine Aura" longer. At least, 20 seconds(now, it is 10 seconds).D. Buff/Debuff(1)"Death March": Upgrade "Death March". For example, change the duration from 10 seconds to 1 minutes and increase the effect x1.5.(2)Merge "Devouring Mist" and "Drain Might". This will help the reduction of number of spells. Make the duration of the new spell 10 minutes(but the recasting time should be at least 1 minute for constant and short combats like solo and group). This will help the reduction of spell casting frequently for long combat like raid. Increase the amount of drain of STR to x3. Because "Drain Might" is worthless now. Or this new spell may be good if it drains not only STR, but also AGI, STA, WIS, and INT.E. Utility(1)Pet: Make Shadowknight's pet permanent, not temporary. This will allow Shadowknight to pet pull. And Shadowknight's pet needs strong toughness(high hit point and high avoidance) to endure Epic mob's attack. It will be good that there are some spells enhancing SK's pet(for example, "Strengthen Death" of EQ1). This will help the increase of DPS of Shadowknight.F. MISC(1)Major improvement of sub-class AA. For example, does it have any meaning that "Harm Touch", of which recasting time is 15 minutes, have lifetap ability? Who comes up with this Harm Touch lifetap? Did he play Shadowknight? And "Siphon Hate", "Reaver", and "Pools of Blood" should be not Achievement spells, but normal spells under normal circumstances. This will help that these spells are enhanced(for example, Adept III or Master I). Change "Siphon Hate", "Reaver", and "Pools of Blood" to normal spells and make new wonderful Achievement spells to help DPS and defence of Shadowknight.(2)2 handed weapon: 2 handed weapon should have protection, parrying, status-up, resists, proc, and adornment to cover "1H and shield"'s protection, parrying, status-up, resists, proc and adornment. And make a stance of 2 handed weapon for crusaders. This "2H weapon stance" should have no demerit and increase crusaders' attack and defence(for example, "slashing, piercing and so on", double attack, melee crit, aggression, defence(mitigation, parry, block, and riposte), INT and WIS, desease resist and physical resist)(3)Change the increases of recasting speed, recovery speed and casting speed of "Avenging Invigoration"(STR line) from 10% to 50%. Because crusaders have many "spells" which have long casting time and are interrupted frequently. Shadowknight have a few combat arts which have very quick casting time and can hardly be interrupted. This will help the increase of DPS of Shadowknight. If the spells of Shadowknight change to combat arts like A(1), this will be unnecessary.