Incoming changes . . .

[Banditman]

<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=415011" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Original source here.</a>Some of the more important things for us to note:Volatile Magic - This will change for all enchanters.  The spell does not play well since I see many of the enchanters just spamming sprint to stay under 30% power.  That really wasn't the intention of the skill at all.  Instead it will be a reduced amount that applies regardless of your current power amount.Power drains - To compensate some for the reduction to Volatile Magic, both enchanter subclasses will be getting their power drains turned into damage.  In their current state these are more useful for their control effects rather than the actual power drains.  After the changes the spells should be a bit more useful.Let the rampant speculation and unfounded accusations begin!

[Darkc]

Well, I think most of us that have a clue knew was coming sooner or later.  I'm just afraid they'll over do it. 

[Zelldeb]

it would be nice if we get a spell similiar to rune based on our current power as well.but thats probably asking too much

[Yarginis]

Depends on the reduction how I feel. dropping it fro 25% to 15% in exchange when coupled with the pwr drain change wouldn't be bad. If they drop it 2 much more I'll be annoyed. It will be a little dps loss of trash [Removed for Content], but on certain named where we can't do power very easily for whatever reason it will help.

[Antryg Mistrose]

<span class="postbody">"Volatile Magic - This will change for all enchanters.  The spell does not play well since I see many of the enchanters just spamming sprint to stay under 30% power.  That really wasn't the intention of the skill at all.  Instead it will be a <span style="font-size: large;"><b>reduced amount</b></span> that applies regardless of your current power amount.Power drains - To compensate <span style="font-size: large;"><b>some for the reduction</b></span> to Volatile Magic, both enchanter subclasses will be getting their power drains turned into damage.  In their current state these are more useful for their control effects rather than the actual power drains.  After the changes the spells should be a bit more useful."Summary: Coercers get a fix, Illusionists get <strike>screwed</strike> put back to where our dps is supposed to be    <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" (if you think the reduced amount will be slight or the amount of extra damage that they'll replace the power drain will be significant I have some swamp land in Florida I'd like to sell you)</span>

[Dooh]

I like it. Cant happen soon enough.

[Belizarius]

<cite>Alexiiya@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Depends on the reduction how I feel. dropping it fro 25% to 15% in exchange when coupled with the pwr drain change wouldn't be bad. If they drop it 2 much more I'll be annoyed. It will be a little dps loss of trash [I cannot control my vocabulary], but on certain named where we can't do power very easily for whatever reason it will help.</blockquote><p>I think even 15% would be too low.  That's effectively a 10% nerf to my DPS in most situations.</p><p>It's not like we're getting anything useful in compensation.  Damage to replace power drain on my stun & stifle?  Maybe useful for soloing, that's about it.</p><p>No 2 ways about it, in the current form these 'Coercer enhancements' are also an Illusionist nerf.</p><p>PS.  Hello AJ - send me a tell sometime...</p>

[Malleable]

Well I'm a newbie enchanter compared to most, but I would never take Volatile Magic given the power requirement.  Now its worth considering - though I will probably still stick with Ag/Time.  If power drains are switched to health damage, then my DPS will go up - so I dont mind that.

[Banditman]

<cite>Malleable wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well I'm a newbie enchanter compared to most, but I would never take Volatile Magic given the power requirement. </blockquote>Because heaven forbid you do 25% more DPS.  When you are L80 with all the gear RoK has introduced, the power requirement is irrelevant.

[Prrasha]

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Malleable wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well I'm a newbie enchanter compared to most, but I would never take Volatile Magic given the power requirement. </blockquote>Because heaven forbid you do 25% more DPS.  When you are L80 with all the gear RoK has introduced, the power requirement is irrelevant.</blockquote>And the dev stated that that was <i>exactly</i> the problem, thus the change.  Personally, since "<i>volatile</i> magic" implies "random", I'd be happier with a randomized effect (Spell Double Attack ala wizard epic, anyone?) than a flat % boost, but I'm not sure the Devs will give us something new and exciting when a percentage change is so easy to code. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Banditman]

What would be even cooler is a spell that increases your proc chances the lower you get on power.

[Illine]

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>What would be even cooler is a spell that increases your proc chances the lower you get on power.</blockquote><p>that would remain the same since everybody would stay low on mana to dps more.</p><p>anyway enchanters were not made to do dps :p</p><p>as coercers, I have 4 power drain spells. </p><p>One solo dot that drain the mob, give me back some mana.</p><p>One AE dot that do little damage and power drains. So a boost in damage is good :p</p><p>One stun and one stiffle.</p><p>sure it's not much since you don't can your cc spells if the raid mob is immuned, neither on named. but taking away from the other two is okay. I agree, changing power drain to damage will not totally take the loss from VM.</p>

[Antryg Mistrose]

<cite>Earar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>What would be even cooler is a spell that increases your proc chances the lower you get on power.</blockquote><p>that would remain the same since everybody would stay low on mana to dps more.</p><p>anyway enchanters were not made to do dps :p</p><p>as coercers, I have 4 power drain spells. </p><p>One solo dot that drain the mob, give me back some mana.</p><p>One AE dot that do little damage and power drains. So a boost in damage is good :p</p><p>One stun and one stiffle.</p><p>sure it's not much since you don't can your cc spells if the raid mob is immuned, neither on named. but taking away from the other two is okay. I agree, changing power drain to damage will not totally take the loss from VM.</p></blockquote>As a coercer you have your own forumYes its nice that coercers are getting improved.  It would have been nicer still if Illusionists weren't getting nerfed as part of the process.  Forgive me if I'm less than enchanted by that prospect.  Seems Illusionists aren't "about where we want them to be" after all.Given the cast/recast/power of the Illusionist power drain spells, the added damage would have to be huge to even come close to making up for the PERCENTAGE across the board nerf of volatile magic.  And THAT has not been stated - quite the opposite in fact.Those spells won't (in raids) be joining a  DPS spell rotation - in groups/solo - useless power drain or small extra damage - hard to get too enthusiastic over that.  If it interferes with mezz, then it will be a downgrade for solo / small groups.

[Illine]

<cite>Antryg Mistrose wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Earar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>What would be even cooler is a spell that increases your proc chances the lower you get on power.</blockquote><p>that would remain the same since everybody would stay low on mana to dps more.</p><p>anyway enchanters were not made to do dps :p</p><p>as coercers, I have 4 power drain spells. </p><p>One solo dot that drain the mob, give me back some mana.</p><p>One AE dot that do little damage and power drains. So a boost in damage is good :p</p><p>One stun and one stiffle.</p><p>sure it's not much since you don't can your cc spells if the raid mob is immuned, neither on named. but taking away from the other two is okay. I agree, changing power drain to damage will not totally take the loss from VM.</p></blockquote>As a coercer you have your own forumYes its nice that coercers are getting improved.  It would have been nicer still if Illusionists weren't getting nerfed as part of the process.  Forgive me if I'm less than enchanted by that prospect.  Seems Illusionists aren't "about where we want them to be" after all.Given the cast/recast/power of the Illusionist power drain spells, the added damage would have to be huge to even come close to making up for the PERCENTAGE across the board nerf of volatile magic.  And THAT has not been stated - quite the opposite in fact.Those spells won't (in raids) be joining a  DPS spell rotation - in groups/solo - useless power drain or small extra damage - hard to get too enthusiastic over that.  If it interferes with mezz, then it will be a downgrade for solo / small groups.</blockquote><p>Have I said anything unpleasant, mean or have I been disrespectful? I don't think so, I just wanted to give my point of view about this change like YOU illusionnist come into the coercer forum. those are enchanteur changes, not just illus. Don't be mad at coercers because dev change VM and not our epic. nobody have asked for that. </p><p>they'll affect the coercer who took this AA too. but I agree we'll be less affected than you because we'll have a lot of changes, but it doesn't mean our overall dps will become great because of VM changes.</p>

[Banditman]

Tell ya what . . . once Coercers are "fixed", we'll ask the devs to go back in the next patch and remove 25% of your potential DPS.  Sound good to you?  Yea, that's what I thought . . .

[Grimlux]

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tell ya what . . . once Coercers are "fixed", we'll ask the devs to go back in the next patch and remove 25% of your potential DPS.  Sound good to you?  Yea, that's what I thought . . .</blockquote><p>Yah, because its all the coercer's fault that your going to lose dps... How utterly rediculous that anyone can blame coercer's for the VM change, considering Illusionists and Coercer's share this same tree....</p><p>Are you guys on drugs? =p</p>

[Banditman]

No one is "blaming" you for anything.  The point here is that Illusionists are not happy about losing a substantial DPS benefit.  You came in and stuck your nose in a meat grinder.  I expect you got it scratched just a bit. You said Enchanters weren't made to do DPS?  Illusionists were told that we were sitting about where the devs wanted us.  Now we're taking what we currently feel is going to be a pretty big DPS hit.Does this not seem somehow inappropriate to you?  Oh, that's right, you aren't an Illusionist, you have no idea.Wait!  Yep!  There it is!  The point.You aren't an Illusionist.  You have no idea.  Perhaps this isn't the best place for you to comment.

[Regholdain]

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>No one is "blaming" you for anything.  The point here is that Illusionists are not happy about losing a substantial DPS benefit.  You came in and stuck your nose in a meat grinder.  I expect you got it scratched just a bit.You said Enchanters weren't made to do DPS?  Illusionists were told that we were sitting about where the devs wanted us.  Now we're taking what we currently feel is going to be a pretty big DPS hit.Does this not seem somehow inappropriate to you?  Oh, that's right, you aren't an Illusionist, you have no idea.Wait!  Yep!  There it is!  The point.You aren't an Illusionist.  You have no idea.  Perhaps this isn't the best place for you to comment.</blockquote><p>I don't think the effects of an illusionist player spamming sprint to lower his power so he can force VM to proc were taken into consideration when the devs said illusionist dps was sitting about where they wanted it.  The truth is, what you are calling a "substantial DPS benefit" is an exploit to a mechanic that had good concept but poor practicality.  Of course illusionists don't like the change to VM.  They've been spamming sprint to keep their power down so they can dps much higher than they should.  It's a mechanic that needed adjusting because it is easily exploited by illusionists more so than coercers, which creates an imbalance in where your dps should be.</p><p>The devs look at dps based on spell numbers and autoattack numbers / rates.  They were not referring to the unintentional exploit of procing VM when they said illusionists were sitting about where they wanted them to be.</p><p>Really, you guys shouldn't be whining.  You've gotten to use the unintended added dps up to now.  They looked at it, saw what was happening in practice and decided it needed to be fixed.  Did you really think they were going to leave this broken mechanic in game?  Please...</p>

[Grimlux]

<cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>No one is "blaming" you for anything.  The point here is that Illusionists are not happy about losing a substantial DPS benefit.  You came in and stuck your nose in a meat grinder.  I expect you got it scratched just a bit.You said Enchanters weren't made to do DPS?  Illusionists were told that we were sitting about where the devs wanted us.  Now we're taking what we currently feel is going to be a pretty big DPS hit.Does this not seem somehow inappropriate to you?  Oh, that's right, you aren't an Illusionist, you have no idea.Wait!  Yep!  There it is!  The point.You aren't an Illusionist.  You have no idea.  Perhaps this isn't the best place for you to comment.</blockquote><p>Oh sorry, im just responding to your irrational thought path. As if I was the one who said "Enchanter's arent made to do DPS". Would you prefer a skill that Coercer's and Enchanters can both benefit from or are you that selfish and want something just for illusionists? Who are these mythical illusionists that are unhappy? The 5 or 6 of em that responded to this thread? Most illusionists I know don't even bother with VM, just a rare few who enjoy babysitting their sprint button.</p><p>It doesnt matter if I am an illusionist or not. The enchanter mechanic's are still the same. Breathe in... swallow your paxil.. everythings going to be fine.</p>

[Banditman]

We'll see.  Perhaps you'll better understand once you have some actual DPS to worry about losing.

[Spaceweed]

<cite>Regholdain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Banditman wrote:</cite><blockquote>No one is "blaming" you for anything.  The point here is that Illusionists are not happy about losing a substantial DPS benefit.  You came in and stuck your nose in a meat grinder.  I expect you got it scratched just a bit.You said Enchanters weren't made to do DPS?  Illusionists were told that we were sitting about where the devs wanted us.  Now we're taking what we currently feel is going to be a pretty big DPS hit.Does this not seem somehow inappropriate to you?  Oh, that's right, you aren't an Illusionist, you have no idea.Wait!  Yep!  There it is!  The point.You aren't an Illusionist.  You have no idea.  Perhaps this isn't the best place for you to comment.</blockquote><p>I don't think the effects of an illusionist player spamming sprint to lower his power so he can force VM to proc were taken into consideration when the devs said illusionist dps was sitting about where they wanted it.  The truth is, what you are calling a "substantial DPS benefit" is an exploit to a mechanic that had good concept but poor practicality.  Of course illusionists don't like the change to VM.  They've been spamming sprint to keep their power down so they can dps much higher than they should.  It's a mechanic that needed adjusting because it is easily exploited by illusionists more so than coercers, which creates an imbalance in where your dps should be.</p><p>The devs look at dps based on spell numbers and autoattack numbers / rates.  They were not referring to the unintentional exploit of procing VM when they said illusionists were sitting about where they wanted them to be.</p><p>Really, you guys shouldn't be whining.  You've gotten to use the unintended added dps up to now.  They looked at it, saw what was happening in practice and decided it needed to be fixed.  Did you really think they were going to leave this broken mechanic in game?  Please...</p></blockquote>How is VM broken?  Doesn't it do exactly what it says on the tin?What has happened, is people have realised how much damage they can do by being 'consistently' under 30% mana.  I would imagine VM was supposed to be used towards the end of a fight, when naturally the mana pool had decreased sufficiently to provide a DPS boost just at the right time.  As usual, any benefit to DPS will be maximised by an intelligent player, especially as parses have put such an emphasis on it.The developers have looked at the graphs and realised how mluch an Illusionist can 'actually' parse now, and have decided it is too much. They are at least T2 DPS, when they should probably be no more than T3 with all the utility they have.I think overall, the Devs will look to reduce Illusionist DPS from 15-20%.  Big nerf, but Illy's have had their day in the sun.

[Jeger_Wulf]

<p>> They are at least T2 DPS, when they should probably be no more than T3 > with all the utility they have.</p><p>Stop with the "should" stuff. No-one can say where any class "should" be. They all are wherever they are and developers will do what they want, like they always do. It's never a good thing for a class to get nerfed. IMO people playing the class always deserve sympathy when it happens. </p><p>Utility seems to be valued a lot more by developers (and maybe you) than by the players. That's why the least-played classes are classes that sacrifice DPS for utility. The net result of sacrificing DPS for utility is a loss of fun to most people if the balance isn't carefully maintained.</p><p>Illusionists are a powerful, fun class, and I guess I don't see that being a problem - I'd like to see coercers, dirges, and troubs brought up to their standard. IMO if illusionists were OPed, there would be a lot more of them, but it's not for me to decide. </p><p>Kind of a scattered post, but it always gripes me when a class gets nerfed and people pop up telling them they deserve the nerf.</p><p>Anyway, grats to coercers - I am happy for you. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Spaceweed]

<cite>Jeger_Wulf wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>> They are at least T2 DPS, when they should probably be no more than T3 > with all the utility they have.</p><p>Stop with the "should" stuff. No-one can say where any class "should" be. They all are wherever they are and developers will do what they want, like they always do. It's never a good thing for a class to get nerfed. IMO people playing the class always deserve sympathy when it happens. </p><p>Utility seems to be valued a lot more by developers (and maybe you) than by the players. That's why the least-played classes are classes that sacrifice DPS for utility. The net result of sacrificing DPS for utility is a loss of fun to most people if the balance isn't carefully maintained.</p><p>Illusionists are a powerful, fun class, and I guess I don't see that being a problem - I'd like to see coercers, dirges, and troubs brought up to their standard. IMO if illusionists were OPed, there would be a lot more of them, but it's not for me to decide. </p><p>Kind of a scattered post, but it always gripes me when a class gets nerfed and people pop up telling them they deserve the nerf.</p><p>Anyway, grats to coercers - I am happy for you. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></p></blockquote>I'm a VP Illy - you were saying?

[Econometr]

I thought that Aeralik was referring to proposed changes.  Regardless, I think that the changes to VM and power drains would be bad news for our class.  First, there would be the obvious hit to DPS.  Second, the changes would eliminate what makes VM "volatile" and replace a class-defining ability with mediocre DD's or DOT's.  I am surprised that more illusionists have not been complaining in this forum.  To the extent that the incoming changes are not written in stone, we should send a clear message to the devs that we will not be satisfied with coercer fixes that nerf illusionists.   Recently, I witnessed a virtual revolt by players of warlocks in WOW that led to a nerf being reversed.  There is no good reason why our voices should not be similarly heard.I think that most of us would agree that coercers need improvement.  I play a coercer also and  feel that the class is lacking relative to my illusionist.  However, there is no need to ruin VM or eliminate power drains to resolve the problems that plague coercers.  A dev had indicated that illusionists were producing an appropriate level of DPS.  Aeralik's stated concern about sprinting does not contradict that statement.  Sprinting is simply an unforeseen, and perhaps untoward, behavioral change.  If the devs do not want illusionists to sprint to reduce power below 30%, then there are myriad ways to fix the problem other than eliminating the power requirement and lowering the DPS benefit.  For example, they could add a health requirement in addition to or in place of the power requirement or make it so that VM will not proc for a set period after the enchanter has finished sprinting.  These are only two ideas, though I recognize that they may not be wholly appropriate for coercers.  I am certain that the devs could think of something that would not entail a reduction in illusionists' DPS output.  They are creative, and it is their job to develop solutions to problems such as this one.

[Spaceweed]

<cite>Econometrix wrote:</cite><blockquote>I thought that Aeralik was referring to proposed changes.  Regardless, I think that the changes to VM and power drains would be bad news for our class.  First, there would be the obvious hit to DPS.  Second, the changes would eliminate what makes VM "volatile" and replace a class-defining ability with mediocre DD's or DOT's.  I am surprised that more illusionists have not been complaining in this forum.  To the extent that the incoming changes are not written in stone, we should send a clear message to the devs that we will not be satisfied with coercer fixes that nerf illusionists.   Recently, I witnessed a virtual revolt by players of warlocks in WOW that led to a nerf being reversed.  There is no good reason why our voices should not be similarly heard.I think that most of us would agree that coercers need improvement.  I play a coercer also and  feel that the class is lacking relative to my illusionist.  However, there is no need to ruin VM or eliminate power drains to resolve the problems that plague coercers.  A dev had indicated that illusionists were producing an appropriate level of DPS.  Aeralik's stated concern about sprinting does not contradict that statement.  Sprinting is simply an unforeseen, and perhaps untoward, behavioral change.  If the devs do not want illusionists to sprint to reduce power below 30%, then there are myriad ways to fix the problem other than eliminating the power requirement and lowering the DPS benefit.  For example, they could add a health requirement in addition to or in place of the power requirement or make it so that VM will not proc for a set period after the enchanter has finished sprinting.  These are only two ideas, though I recognize that they may not be wholly appropriate for coercers.  I am certain that the devs could think of something that would not entail a reduction in illusionists' DPS output.  They are creative, and it is their job to develop solutions to problems such as this one.</blockquote>I think Aeralik has been very crafty in what he has done.  He obviously thinks Illy's are where they should be, as long as they are not constantly under 30% mana, and therefore proccing 25% more damage 'all' the time.Now, how do you put Illy's where you want them to be, without creating a huge outcry?  You do exactly what he has done, and that is buff Coercers using similar lines that are shared by Enchanters.  Now we all know that Coercers need some love, but we also know that Illusionists can't be buffed, so there has to be a trade off with the Illy.  Kill two birds etc, and have a muted reply from the Illy community because a) an Illy in the right hands is arguably OP, and b) Illy's don't want to be seen to be a roadblock in the way of their cousins' overdue loving.If he had wanted to, and put some thought into it, Aeralik needn't have even brought Illusionists into the equation.  There must be many ways of improving the Coercer's spell lines/creating a new/revamped specific AA line etc, to alleviate the problem.Anyway, maybe this is just the quiet before the storm - even EQF is unnaturally silent on this, and that is strange to say the least.  My guess is folk are waiting to see what Aeralik comes up with, before the proverbial brown stuff hits the fan.Personally, I'm ambivalent to the whole situation.  Constantly keeping mana control is a Royal pita, and honestly, I've been expecting this for a while.  Oh, and the small matter of AoC next month <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[LivelyHound]

Having both a lvl 80 illusionist and a mid 40's coercer both specced with VM I am a little worried about the upcoming change. Gonna wait and see exaclty what the change is but I hope that whatever they do they do it right. 25% down to 10 or 15% would e a very big hit for example. I am however very happy to see my coercer getting some dev love for a change, shame it seems to be coming with the cost of a nerf to my illy. As to changing power drains to damage, the damage had better be of some significance otherwise whats the point. Ah well will wait and see but this stinks of a major incoming nerf to illy's to me and that never goes well.

[Nerwen]

<cite>Econometrix wrote:</cite><blockquote>Second, the changes would eliminate what makes VM "volatile" and replace <span style="font-size: medium;"><u><i><b>a class-defining ability...</b></i></u></span></blockquote>(Emphasis mine.)Stop!  Perfect!  You have put your finger exactly on the problem.The ability to do extreme damage should <b><u><i>never</i></u></b> have been allowed to become a <i><u>class-defining</u></i> ability for Illusionists.  Illusionists do have the ability to do good damage, and will retain the ability to do good damage, even after the changes go live, even if our DPS is dropped by 25%.  I frankly would have preferred to have the entire AA line yanked and replaced with something entirely different, but that's just my own personal preference.Illusionists are more than a wizard with tricks - but IMHO that is what the damage AA line has reduced us to.  We are Illusionists, not wizards, and for that matter, not rogues, assassins, or any of the other particularly high-damage melee classes. Doing top-teir damage <b><i><u>should not be a class definining ability for Illusionists, period</u></i></b>.  (And for everyone about to foam at the mouth, please notice the key phrase "top teir" in that sentence.)And in case anyone is wondering, my main is currently a level-80 Illusionist who raids four nights a week.   Our top illusionist (I am not him) consistently parses <i><u>in the top three</u></i> of our entire guild!  If he can do it, so can a bunch of other Illusionists on my server, and Illusionists should not be parsing above certain damage-centric mage and melee classes.  Now, knowing Sony (I have played since launch) they will overdo it, so I am anticipating a <i><u>huge</u></i> DPS hit (I am imagining 25% as a minimum, not a maximum.)  I am really, really anticipating not having to run and jump all the time (which I hate with a purple passion.)  I wish that we had more to do on a raid other than damage (it infuriates me to have three Illusionists on a 24-man raid, then wipe to one add) but that is more of a pipe dream than any real expectation of change.I just wish they would fix our pets (which I never use in raids, but that is beside the point) to wear our ILLUSIONARY appearance, and not our base race!Speaking of which... does the Illusionist class have an actual developer?  Does anyone know?Cirinde

[Grimlux]

<cite>Cirinde@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Econometrix wrote:</cite><blockquote>Second, the changes would eliminate what makes VM "volatile" and replace <span style="font-size: medium;"><u><i><b>a class-defining ability...</b></i></u></span></blockquote>(Emphasis mine.)Stop!  Perfect!  You have put your finger exactly on the problem.The ability to do extreme damage should <b><u><i>never</i></u></b> have been allowed to become a <i><u>class-defining</u></i> ability for Illusionists.  Illusionists do have the ability to do good damage, and will retain the ability to do good damage, even after the changes go live, even if our DPS is dropped by 25%.  I frankly would have preferred to have the entire AA line yanked and replaced with something entirely different, but that's just my own personal preference.Illusionists are more than a wizard with tricks - but IMHO that is what the damage AA line has reduced us to.  We are Illusionists, not wizards, and for that matter, not rogues, assassins, or any of the other particularly high-damage melee classes. Doing top-teir damage <b><i><u>should not be a class definining ability for Illusionists, period</u></i></b>.  (And for everyone about to foam at the mouth, please notice the key phrase "top teir" in that sentence.)And in case anyone is wondering, my main is currently a level-80 Illusionist who raids four nights a week.   Our top illusionist (I am not him) consistently parses <i><u>in the top three</u></i> of our entire guild!  If he can do it, so can a bunch of other Illusionists on my server, and Illusionists should not be parsing above certain damage-centric mage and melee classes.  Now, knowing Sony (I have played since launch) they will overdo it, so I am anticipating a <i><u>huge</u></i> DPS hit (I am imagining 25% as a minimum, not a maximum.)  I am really, really anticipating not having to run and jump all the time (which I hate with a purple passion.)  I wish that we had more to do on a raid other than damage (it infuriates me to have three Illusionists on a 24-man raid, then wipe to one add) but that is more of a pipe dream than any real expectation of change.I just wish they would fix our pets (which I never use in raids, but that is beside the point) to wear our ILLUSIONARY appearance, and not our base race!Speaking of which... does the Illusionist class have an actual developer?  Does anyone know?Cirinde </blockquote><p>Well said. I think it is easy for anyone to take a nerf to the class they love personally. In the beginning there will be angry illusionists, after time it will be forgotten.</p>

[Illine]

<cite>Cirinde@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Econometrix wrote:</cite><blockquote>Second, the changes would eliminate what makes VM "volatile" and replace <span style="font-size: medium;"><u><i><b>a class-defining ability...</b></i></u></span></blockquote>(Emphasis mine.)Stop!  Perfect!  You have put your finger exactly on the problem.The ability to do extreme damage should <b><u><i>never</i></u></b> have been allowed to become a <i><u>class-defining</u></i> ability for Illusionists.  Illusionists do have the ability to do good damage, and will retain the ability to do good damage, even after the changes go live, even if our DPS is dropped by 25%.  I frankly would have preferred to have the entire AA line yanked and replaced with something entirely different, but that's just my own personal preference.Illusionists are more than a wizard with tricks - but IMHO that is what the damage AA line has reduced us to.  We are Illusionists, not wizards, and for that matter, not rogues, assassins, or any of the other particularly high-damage melee classes. Doing top-teir damage <b><i><u>should not be a class definining ability for Illusionists, period</u></i></b>.  (And for everyone about to foam at the mouth, please notice the key phrase "top teir" in that sentence.)And in case anyone is wondering, my main is currently a level-80 Illusionist who raids four nights a week.   Our top illusionist (I am not him) consistently parses <i><u>in the top three</u></i> of our entire guild!  If he can do it, so can a bunch of other Illusionists on my server, and Illusionists should not be parsing above certain damage-centric mage and melee classes.  Now, knowing Sony (I have played since launch) they will overdo it, so I am anticipating a <i><u>huge</u></i> DPS hit (I am imagining 25% as a minimum, not a maximum.)  I am really, really anticipating not having to run and jump all the time (which I hate with a purple passion.)  I wish that we had more to do on a raid other than damage (it infuriates me to have three Illusionists on a 24-man raid, then wipe to one add) but that is more of a pipe dream than any real expectation of change.I just wish they would fix our pets (which I never use in raids, but that is beside the point) to wear our ILLUSIONARY appearance, and not our base race!Speaking of which... does the Illusionist class have an actual developer?  Does anyone know?Cirinde </blockquote><p>yeah, our main illu was always in the top 5 before the mage nerf ... SHe is using VM, just like me and I just can't compete, she's too high for me. In some raids, we have to mezz heroic adds and she's better than me because she has less resists and 2 mezz to help her.</p><p>When I wanted to be an enchanteur, I didn't want dps, I wanted crow control ... dps was never the role of the enchanter ... but it became because now if you don't dps, you're useless :p or almost ^^.</p><p>Stop looking at the parse a little bit. You'll have less dps, so are we but it's not an Illu's nerf ... it's an enchanter ... and when someone said <b>We'll see.  Perhaps you'll better understand once you have some actual DPS to worry about losing.</b></p><p>I'll answer him that at least you've been able to see what like to do awesome dps, I have no idea and I honestly don't care <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> because qe are not wizards, we are not dps machines and we can give more than just dps. another coercer in my guild (who was before an illu) said he wanted for enchanter's dps to be nerfed if at least we could have a really cc. And I agree with him, dps is boring :p. but keeping mobs mezzed is so much fun <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>We'll get through it, you'll see <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Econometr]

I am afraid that you misinterpreted what I wrote.  I was referring to power drains, not DPS, as being class defining.  Further, I do not think that it is reasonable to compare the DPS output of illusionists to the capabilities of wizards and others mages.  Illusionists are Tier 2 DPS casters.  However, they have an unparalleled ability to manipulate their targets to prevent incoming damage.  This allows their moderate DPS output to accumulate over time.  Consequently, in some fights their DPS may rival the damage inflicted by Tier 1 DPS classes.  While I do not think that a nerf to VM will ruin the illusionist class, I see no good reason to weaken illusionists while fixing what is wrong with coercers.  The illusionist is probably the most fine-tuned class in the game.  The class does what it is supposed to do very well and is not overpowered.  As with every class, there are bugs; however, these are minor.  If illusionists were overpowered, then there would be many more illusionists than currently exist.  The proposed changes will create an imbalance that will result in dissatisfaction among many players of illusionists and lead to more unnecessary tweaking down the road.  I see no good reason to implement changes that will adversely affect illusionists.  The sprinting problem can be addressed without reducing the usefulness/desirability of VM.

[Antryg Mistrose]

My main concern isn't volatile magic sprinting - personally I don't like it much, and never have, BUT it and perpetuality certainly kept you busy.Take that away and the class loses just that much extra flavour - having raided as a dirge and troubador, I don't want the illus to become as bland, neh, boring.  (and yes it IS fun to show up a lazy sorcerer/predator/rogue/summoner now and then - but an on the ball one - forget it).On a similar note, whats with all the "immune" from every named mob in RoK - If someone is patient and skilled enough to try to solo instances/heroic zones, why not let them?  In terms of time/risk/reward it is still balanced imo.  There is stuff all else to do solo at 80/80/140/400, and its the only time our control spells are necessary anyway.

[Xanoth]

A few people have mentioned that they created an Illusionist not for DPS but for CC.  Most of us did, but I don't see your logic that a nerf to our DPS lets us focus more on the CC, what CC?  The vast majority of RoK mobs that are worth mentioning are CC immune, especially raid mobs.  The only thing that will regularly land is a Daze, as named mobs are generally Stun and Stifle immune so that their AE's can't be interfered with.So if part of our class is almost writen out due to game design and scripting, all we have left is either being buff bots or DPS.  I know what I'd prefer the class to be given the options.

[Spaceweed]

<cite>Kaizan@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>A few people have mentioned that they created an Illusionist not for DPS but for CC.  Most of us did, but I don't see your logic that a nerf to our DPS lets us focus more on the CC, what CC?  The vast majority of RoK mobs that are worth mentioning are CC immune, especially raid mobs.  The only thing that will regularly land is a Daze, as named mobs are generally Stun and Stifle immune so that their AE's can't be interfered with.So if part of our class is almost writen out due to game design and scripting, all we have left is either being buff bots or DPS.  I know what I'd prefer the class to be given the options.</blockquote>You make a very valid point regarding our CC.  In my view, CC is our class defining line, and in raiding it is virtually redundant.  If I wanted to be a DPS mage, I would have rolled a Wizard or arguably a Warlock.I suppose this is the main reason I have lost interest in my main character, and consequently the game.

[Gnova]

<p>Every class change seems to be discussed in terms of raid effectiveness and this is fine.  As a ex-raiding I can understand why and if I was a 4/5 night a week raider I wouldn't be happy about these changes.</p><p>As a level 80 non-raiding illusionist the changes will likely increase my dps not nerf it.  The odd time I am in a raid environment I spend time managing mana level for VM, but when I am in a solo or group environment I don't and I really can't see why anyone would need to screw around with 30% power while in a group.  It's just not worth the effort imo, maybe I'm lazy and we could finish the instance 2 minutes sooner if I did but so what. </p><p>The word is out that Illusionist DPS is decent.  I remember a couple years ago it was a tough sell trying to get a PUG as a Illusionist since people wanted dps not CC and they would laugh if you said you'd go as dps.  Now Illusionist's are taken with the thought that they incease DPS in groups, both by pure DPS and by power regen and buffs.</p><p>As for the power drain changes.  I wonder if this is a "back door" way reduce the power drain ability for future mobs/encounters by throwing us a bone of "added dps compnent"..  It is looked at as a trivial skill now because designers have had to design encounters knowing that they had to make sure we couldn't trivialize them with power drains.  If they take away that ability it is one less thing they need to concern themselves with.  Are there so many mezz immune mobs in RoK because they knew that if they weren't mezz immune we would mezz them, drain them dry, then kill them gimped?</p><p>Just thought I would throw out my alternative take on the changes.</p>

[Xanoth]

<cite>Gnova wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Every class change seems to be discussed in terms of raid effectiveness and this is fine.  As a ex-raiding I can understand why and if I was a 4/5 night a week raider I wouldn't be happy about these changes.</p><p>As a level 80 non-raiding illusionist the changes will likely increase my dps not nerf it.  The odd time I am in a raid environment I spend time managing mana level for VM, but when I am in a solo or group environment I don't and I really can't see why anyone would need to screw around with 30% power while in a group.  It's just not worth the effort imo, maybe I'm lazy and we could finish the instance 2 minutes sooner if I did but so what. </p><p>The word is out that Illusionist DPS is decent.  I remember a couple years ago it was a tough sell trying to get a PUG as a Illusionist since people wanted dps not CC and they would laugh if you said you'd go as dps.  Now Illusionist's are taken with the thought that they incease DPS in groups, both by pure DPS and by power regen and buffs.</p><p>As for the power drain changes.  I wonder if this is a "back door" way reduce the power drain ability for future mobs/encounters by throwing us a bone of "added dps compnent"..  It is looked at as a trivial skill now because designers have had to design encounters knowing that they had to make sure we couldn't trivialize them with power drains.  If they take away that ability it is one less thing they need to concern themselves with.  Are there so many mezz immune mobs in RoK because they knew that if they weren't mezz immune we would mezz them, drain them dry, then kill them gimped?</p><p>Just thought I would throw out my alternative take on the changes.</p></blockquote>Most named in heroic instances are all CC immune, raiding or not, CC isn't needed or even that useful in RoK.  You do see Maidens groups looking for illusionists, but any class with a root can do the job.  When on an alt I've even had a brigand snare and kite, worked smoothly.CC was never important in this game, and with more and more mobs being CC immune, its even more redundant now than ever before (heroic zones included).  The only time its useful is if things go bad, some people in your group can't play their class, or you're soloing.Power drains, again we have the same issue.  For a long time now even if you got a mob to 0 power (assuming somehow you managed this before it's HP got to 0 first) they would still use their abilities anyway, as most of it is scripted. But even those mobs were power drains are an effective way of disabling them, reducing their HP to 0 is generally much more effective than reducing their power to 0.  Even soloing, it's easier to stun mobs while nuking and mez them when your stuns are down if you want to play it REALLY safe.I won't argue about VM and soloing, I certainly never waste my time with it.  For groups I do, good numbers are possible with or without it. The changes to VM are still a nerf to those that bothered using it and a boost to those that didn't.

[Gnova]

<cite>Kaizan@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Most named in heroic instances are all CC immune, raiding or not, CC isn't needed or even that useful in RoK.  You do see Maidens groups looking for illusionists, but any class with a root can do the job.  When on an alt I've even had a brigand snare and kite, worked smoothly.CC was never important in this game, and with more and more mobs being CC immune, its even more redundant now than ever before (heroic zones included).  The only time its useful is if things go bad, some people in your group can't play their class, or you're soloing.Power drains, again we have the same issue.  For a long time now even if you got a mob to 0 power (assuming somehow you managed this before it's HP got to 0 first) they would still use their abilities anyway, as most of it is scripted. But even those mobs were power drains are an effective way of disabling them, reducing their HP to 0 is generally much more effective than reducing their power to 0.  Even soloing, it's easier to stun mobs while nuking and mez them when your stuns are down if you want to play it REALLY safe.I won't argue about VM and soloing, I certainly never waste my time with it.  For groups I do, good numbers are possible with or without it. The changes to VM are still a nerf to those that bothered using it and a boost to those that didn't.</blockquote><p>You've more or less reinforced my point.</p><p>The point I was trying to make is that named encounters have been set up and scripted to be CC immune and their skills power level independant partly because permamezz+powerdrain would make any encounter that wasn't scripted in that way trivial and enchanter solo fodder.  Take away the ability to mezz/power drain and perhaps mezzing may take a larger role in the future.</p><p>This isn't entirely likely however because it has been said many many times that they do not want groups to be overly class specific.  Yeah, you are right, it is possible to [Removed for Content] your way through MC without a mezzer.  You can get your way through there with any 2 (or 1 depending on the group) of the healing classes.  You can [Removed for Content] your way through there with a bruiser as a tank (no offence to bruisers) or even a swashie/brigand if you really want. </p>

[Iseabeil]

<p>I didnt have much time to test it, so my data might be off in the longer run, but compairing test and live on the training wall it actually dont look all bad. Used full power on test and included the single target stun and stifle for their damage part whilst staying bellow 30% on live and not using the current power drains. The only time I had pretty much same dps on both ways was when power worked at my benefit during the entire fight. Each fight where I trickled above 30 and had to sprint at times I ended up with slightly less in the end compaired to test. Of course, these are quick fights and I didnt have much time on me, so it may well be off, but Im not too concerned with the changes now.</p><p>edit: this was with mythical, so includes the pets dps wich also are changed from drain to damage.</p>

[ProteusTielaxi]

<p>Anyone complaining about this seriously needs to /testcopy and try the changes on test. Yes, you are losing 15% DPS (in SOME..LIMITED circumstances). Not everyone raids...and not everyone bothers with the idiocy of mashing sprint to max DPS. I have no idea where people got 25% vs 15%.</p><p>However, if you look at your spells carefully, you'll likely find that the "useless" spells you never used before are doing some significant dps now. Those powerdrains got translated *quite* nicely into damage. So..all I suggest is that you actually look at the changes in person (testcopy is very simple) and look carefully at ALL your spells before..ummm...aggresive discussion.</p>

[bmg]

<cite>Spaceweed wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>The developers have looked at the graphs and realised how mluch an Illusionist can 'actually' parse now, and have decided it is too much. They are at least T2 DPS, when they should probably be no more than T3 with all the utility they have.I think overall, the Devs will look to reduce Illusionist DPS from 15-20%.  Big nerf, but Illy's have had their day in the sun.</blockquote>Well, I made and leveled up my 80 illusionist for raiding last fall, well after an Illusionist was capable of doing great dps if they halfway worked at it. While I don't think it's going to happen, I have no interest in being T3 dps.....if that ends up happening then there'll be one less raiding illusionist around. I have no interest in being a buff bot...and CC....now that's a joke most of the time these days. I don't think the change is going to be all that bad though, assuming Illusionists don't get hit with more nerfs. Illusionists that went to the trouble to manage power in raids lose 10% dps from VM, while those that never could be bothered gain 15% from doing nothing, so the gap between the two closes by 25%. I think Soe likes to minimize the gap between those that play their toon to the max and those that don't bother, so I guess it's not surprising.

[Jeepned2]

First of all, I have to admit to not being the brightest bulb in the box. But I guess I'm really confused on how some of the comments seem to imply that the VM reduction only effects Illusionist. Aren't I taking the same nerf? As a raiding Coercer I keep my power under 30%, I don't use mana flow or channeling. (Since they decided it was a great idea on our mythical to allow us to group mana flow but get back 60% mana.) I parse anywhere from 1.3K to a recent high of 3.1K and I'm very happy with the way VM is now. (my normal ZW in the larger zones is around 1.9K using VM the way it is now) Although I do have to agree that in a group with three healers with those dang mana regen belts, that maintaining 30% could test you at times. But I'm also willing to wait to see what actually goes live to see how and if  the mana drain spells make that much difference.Oh for those who know ancient history, Enchanters where never suppose to be T1 or T2, T1 was wizards and warlocks, T2 Summoners, and T3 was Enchanters...but the Tiered system has been so out of wack for so long, most don't even remember what they were initially suppose to be. I mean look, we have Furies in low T2/high T3  range now, that just shows how out of wack the system is now.

[Antryg Mistrose]

<cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>First of all, I have to admit to not being the brightest bulb in the box. But I guess I'm really confused on how some of the comments seem to imply that the VM reduction only effects Illusionist. Aren't I taking the same nerf? As a raiding Coercer</blockquote>Given all the positive changes coercers are getting in the same update, the volatile magic nerf does only affect illusionists.

[Dooh]

I hate having to keep myself under 30% all the time. When we are not killing or pulling a mob. I would rather just sit there rather then maintain my power. So this change is great for me. Also. We are getting 2 extra damage spells. Ba scially the same as Lesion. And i know i have time s when both dots are going and nothing else is rea lly up. So why hit Daunted for a proc chance or re do a dot when you can hit another damage spell. An d lets not forget the added damage the pet will do  now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[-Aonein-]

<p> Ethier the small amount of Coercers that exsist are ethier dumb or playing on dumb.</p><p> Why do I say that? Most think that 1k DPS is the norm......most think that mezzing on raids is the norm.......most think that we (illusionists) were tier 1 and 2 DPS, most think inside the MT group sceanrio and nothing else, what you can't join a caster DPS buffed group and parse like a Illusionist? You can't use a Mirror and respec for groups so you can do DPS and break 4k+ DPS in groups, requires too much effort right, just want to sit back watching T.V and mash buttons? It's not Coercers fault they say when Aeralik said as plain as day that thier lack of DPS is what inspired these changes to begin with..........utterly clueless.</p><p> Why is it so that Fnar, most likely one your best Coercers can do 3k+ DPS in the MT group on raids? Do you guys even know what he sacrafices being in the MT group let alone what he has to do in there that actually lowers his DPS? He also, in groups, parses consistantly 3-5k+ depending on the fight. So wouldn't it be safe to say that the DPS problem never lied with Illusionists doing more but with the people playing the Coercer class themselves not knowing how to DPS in the first place? I think so.....Could it be because they never get put into a DPS role therefore never knowing how to draw the most DPS out of the class cause they are always stuck in defense mode? But that makes no sense because Fnar can do it so why can't you, and sorry Fnar for using your name the most, you just seem like the most skilled voice in the coercer class out there, I am sure there is plenty of others that do just like you do (I know there is, I am guilded with one), but obviously not enough to show how over powering this LU45 is for Coercers.</p><p> As for the Tier 1 and 2 DPS remark, wow that made me laugh hard........you obviously haven't seen what real DPS classes do on these raids/groups where you see Illusionists parse 3-5k, and because you have no idea what they are doing you just assume that we are top of the parse? Nice......I see Wizzies, Warlocks, Assassins, Brigs, Swashies, Rangers (when in the correct group) all the way above me in DPS, when I am doing 4000 - 4500 DPS, they are around the 8000 - 10000+ DPS, you think this is a joke? Go join a raid with people who know how to play thier classes to the fullest extent on a consistant basis and have a look. I am talking consistantly here, people who ZW 7-8k DPS. I am not talking a measly burst parse that went for 8 seconds here grabbing my nuts thinking I am god because I fluked a parse in the high numbers and hit the screen shot button, because it's all about the [Removed for Content] right?</p><p> This is how LU45 has effected Coercers, grats on becoming tier 3 and situationally tier 2 dps on raids in the MT group <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />............. and grats on becoming tier 1 DPS in fully buffed DPS caster groups<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />. Like we didn't see this coming.<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> Anyone who has no clue as to what I am talking about, wait until this goes live because it will, they dragged it out too long and it goes live in 2 weeks.</p><p> Grats to Aeralik trying to treat us like morons and saying VM isn't the way it is intended to be after 2 years of it being that way and not to mention using it right in front of his face that way countless amounts of times when working on test and beta Expasion pack servers helping with solo/raid/group content.</p><p>/rant off, drops microphone.</p>

[Rijacki]

<cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>/rant off, drops microphone.</p></blockquote>Aonein,1. /testcopy on your illusionist2. Patch Test3. On Live, run a "max DPS" parse against the Wall or a target you know you can attack in exactly the same way reliably. Run the test a few times to get a sampling.4. On Test Copy, with your copy (takes approx 24-48 hours for it to be available), run the same "max DPS" parse but add in the changed spells (the ones that had their power drain converted to damage). Run the test the same number of time as on Live, you can even mix the spells up a bit to see if you can get a better line up.5. Compare the parse sets.6. Post your undoctored objective information.7. Provide your subjective commentary.Other illusionists who rely on VM for a large portion of their DPS are finding a small increase from Live to Test.  If you objectively run the tests (and don't try to force the outcome you want to see), you will probably find the same and most definately won't find that illusionists are being nerfed as hard as you're claiming.  Unless you consider another class getting any improvements is nothing but a nerf for your own.

[Nuhus]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>3. On Live, run a "max DPS" parse against the Wall or a target you know you can attack in exactly the same way reliably. Run the test a few times to get a sampling.4. On Test Copy, with your copy (takes approx 24-48 hours for it to be available), run the same "max DPS" parse but add in the changed spells (the ones that had their power drain converted to damage). Run the test the same number of time as on Live, you can even mix the spells up a bit to see if you can get a better line up. a nerf for your own.</blockquote>Are you talking about the wall in Kunzar? Just wondering. I had my GF  (shes an illus) do a test copy, I think I'm going to steal her for a little comparison testing. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />

[-Aonein-]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>/rant off, drops microphone.</p></blockquote>Aonein,1. /testcopy on your illusionist2. Patch Test3. On Live, run a "max DPS" parse against the Wall or a target you know you can attack in exactly the same way reliably. Run the test a few times to get a sampling.4. On Test Copy, with your copy (takes approx 24-48 hours for it to be available), run the same "max DPS" parse but add in the changed spells (the ones that had their power drain converted to damage). Run the test the same number of time as on Live, you can even mix the spells up a bit to see if you can get a better line up.5. Compare the parse sets.6. Post your undoctored objective information.7. Provide your subjective commentary.Other illusionists who rely on VM for a large portion of their DPS are finding a small increase from Live to Test.  If you objectively run the tests (and don't try to force the outcome you want to see), you will probably find the same and most definately won't find that illusionists are being nerfed as hard as you're claiming.  Unless you consider another class getting any improvements is nothing but a nerf for your own.</blockquote><p> This is exactally what I mean........Have I stated anywhere that I need VM to parse well? I personally do not use VM for a large portion of my DPS I suggest you go back and see why I use it in previous threads I have posted.</p><p> As for the test copy, although I do already have a copy there, I can easily remove my choker to get the same effect on live server without waiting the 24-48 hours, tip for those who are not interested in coping to Test and have a choker but want to see what your DPS will be after the change.</p><p> My issue is Devs who have no clue what the issues of a actual class is, yet you have people here saying it has nothing to do with DPS and is more of a utility driven issue and yet Devs know best right, give them more DPS but lets not forget that increasing thier DPS in thier main element which is a MT group postion that it won't effect them in a caster group sceanrio OR those who spend the time to use a Mirror and respec for group content won't effect them ethier. I think it is safe to say Rij, that both Illies and Coercers in same gear, aa spec, group set ups etc etc, both parses reasonably close, give or take a few hundred, read my posts about this, I hate rehashing.</p><p> In essence, if this LU goes live in its current state, you and your fellow brethern Coercers will have access to a far greater amount of DPS then that is intended for you and therefore opening you upto a subject nerf, like I said before, sony givaths only to take awaths. You will have more peev'd people then you will happy in the end.</p><p> What I'd like you to do like the Coercers on EQ2flames are doing is goto the test server, relearn your new class and repost once you have ACT parses up, and I don't want to see The Wall parses because its a moot parse because of the variables that simply are not implied to the said target like mobs that are 80+ have, I want to see posts from mobs. Skyfire mountains, Zones, Instances, Triple up mobs if you can handle that which other Coercers seem to have no issue soloing now and doing 5k+ DPS solo at the same time. Then I want you to look at how many reactives you have access to and how much overpowered those 16 reactives are not to mention the amount of procs they have then compare it to a Illy. All in all, I want you to do some maths, relaern your class to play the new way its intended to be played according to Aeralik, as like you have seen many Illusionists post about how we are not taking a big nerf which I agree on, we aren't, but like many Coercers have stated, the casting order rotation has completely changed and if you can't do 3k+ DPS now with legendary gear and Adept III's, then question yourself first or /delete.</p><p> Once you have done your maths, relearnt your class to play its new style, parsed a few groups, instances etc, come back here with your reports and in the same light, play it hard and play it like you mean it to not doctor any information, because there wont be anything I haven't seen already so won't be hard for me to call BS on anything you aren't trying on or maybe you decided to eat a burito while watching television and just looking at the screen every spilt second all in the while doing 3-4k dps?</p><p> One last thing Rij and I hope you have read this far without knee jerk repling hypoactively like a kid who has ADD, I dont use solo DPS to determine actual DPS, I use group/raid set ups to determine what I can and can't do because there isn't alot of difference between group and raid DPS for most classes yet there is a canyon worth of difference between solo and group. The fact that most Coercers are parsing 4-5k+ on The Wall for those who like static parses should be alarming you, seriously.</p><p> Obviously at the end of the day, parses are like compairing apples to oranges, some people can do it, some people can't which is why you have so many Coercers thinking that the norm for a Coercer is 1k - 1.5k DPS.........more skilled Coercers or people who put more into the game have stated that the issue is not DPS but utility. Is parsing 2k - 3k dps in the MT group a bad thing compaired to a Illusionist doing 4k+ in a DPS group? Make sure you read between the lines here and define the difference between MT group and DPS group to fully understand why Illies do more DPS to begin with. Is parsing 2 - 3k a bad thing when you take into consideration what you do for the MT group compaired to what a Illusionist does for the DPS group? Again take into consideration the differences between the 2 groups and what defines them. Do you agree having 16 reactive procs compaired to Illusionists 3 reactive procs is considered balance? I ask this question specifically because your damage spells are not much different to ours now except we get DoT's, you get reactive procs......after all, its all about balance correct? One would assume that DPS was quite balanced before hand give or take 1 or 2 skills of the Coercer that needed a little help.</p>

[Rijacki]

<cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite> One last thing Rij and I hope you have read this far without knee jerk repling hypoactively like a kid who has ADD, I dont use solo DPS to determine actual DPS, I use group/raid set ups to determine what I can and can't do because there isn't alot of difference between group and raid DPS for most classes yet there is a canyon worth of difference between solo and group. The fact that most Coercers are parsing 4-5k+ on The Wall for those who like static parses should be alarming you, seriously.</blockquote>*yawn*You really do like the sound of your own voice.I have been one of the first to post my parses AND state quite plainly the damage as it is on test is a bit high right now because the reactives are reacting a hit high.  I'm not comparing it to an illusionist, I'm comparing it to other classes -I- have played (wizard, dirge, and others) as well as with a feeling to how it's going to play out with others' buffs.Yes, a solo parse is vastly different than a group parse or a raid parse.  If you're comparing a solo parse to a group parse, that's stupid.  If you're comparing a group parse to a raid parse, that's stupid.  If you're comparing an MT raid group parse to a mage raid group parse, that's stupid.  If you're comparing fighting one mob to a completely different mob, that's stupid, too (the Wall is a constant, a known variable, which is why it can be used reliably in SOME parses). Und so weiter.You also do have to realise there is a VAST difference between an extremely well equipped VP character with 140 Acheivements, one who is in T2 raids and not fully fabled but with 140 Achievements, and one who has just reached level 80 doesn't have anything more than MC or quest/instance obtained gear and more than 100 but less than 140 Achievements. General game mechanics should NEVER be balanced based solely on the former or the middle.  -I- have posted what my gear is and approximately what my stats are for the parses I have posted.  I have never claimed I was the world's greatest coercer or that I had the absolute best spell line up on Live or on Test (actually, I declared the opposite). I have also posted side by side screen shots of my spells from Live to Test.As for doing group/raid parses comparing Live to Test, I have asked for group assistance from my guild.  But, our guild is strictly and entirely "volunteer" and on the casual side of dedicated.  We've never claimed to be ubah or hard-core or anything but what we are.  IF other guildies have time (RL occurs, too, you know and some might have plans this weekend for in or out of game), I might be able to get a comparison with a group.  I'd really like to, but I can't compell others to do my bidding and I respect they have other plans and things to do. (Heck, I'm not even demanding my boyfriend copy to test duoing with a Troubie, something we often do on Live).So... if I had the gear Fnar has and was in the mage group with the rest of the group as equipped as the mage group he is, I probably wouldn't parse as high as he does because he probably min/maxes harder than I do.  It doesn't make me a crappy coercer, it would only mean he's a better one.BUT, -I- am not the one ranting about how these changes are a Nerf to illusionists because the damage buff of VM has changed and because another class is getting a change to how it's spells react increasing their damage. YOU are the one who is ranting about how badly this nerfs illusionists and yet you've not posted even one comparison to back up your rant.And, what would you use VM for except for a damage boost?  The whole point of the Achievement is the damage increase.  At least I've read the spell description.

[Jeepned2]

<cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> <span style="color: #3399ff;">Was going to just read for the most part and maybe learn something, but couldn't let this go by without response.</span></p><p> Ethier the small amount of Coercers that exsist are ethier dumb or playing on dumb.</p><p> Why do I say that? Most think that 1k DPS is the norm <span style="color: #3399ff;">No, about 1.5-1.9 is the norm.</span>......most think that mezzing on raids is the norm <span style="color: #3399ff;">I never mezz in raids, that's why we have 2 Illusionists</span>.......most think that we (illusionists) were tier 1 and 2 DPS, most think inside the MT group sceanrio <span style="color: #3399ff;">Yes we do since that is the only place we are allowed. </span>and nothing else, what you can't join a caster <span style="color: #3399ff;">No we can't, again, not allowed. MT Tank bitched so loud the one time we did it, I got to stay in the caster group for one mob.</span> DPS buffed group and parse like a Illusionist? You can't use a Mirror and respec for groups so you can do DPS and break 4k+ DPS in groups<span style="color: #3399ff;"> Yes I have a mirror and no I can't break 4K very often</span>, requires too much effort right, just want to sit back watching T.V and mash buttons? It's not Coercers fault they say when Aeralik said as plain as day that thier lack of DPS is what inspired these changes to begin with..........utterly clueless.</p><p> Why is it so that Fnar, most likely one your best Coercers can do 3k+ DPS in the MT group on raids?<span style="color: #3399ff;"> If you are telling me that on every mob in VP that Fnar is punching 3K dps, then I guess the rest of your statements are true, 99.99 % of the rest of us are just useless slobs that don't know how to play our class. I only hit 3K on a few AoE mobs like the sentries.</span> Do you guys even know what he sacrafices being in the MT group let alone what he has to do in there that actually lowers his DPS?<span style="color: #3399ff;"> Oh goody, our first Saint, Fnar the Patron Saint of the rest of the stupid Coercers.</span> He also, in groups, parses consistantly 3-5k+ depending on the fight. So wouldn't it be safe to say that the DPS problem never lied with Illusionists doing more but with the people playing the Coercer class themselves not knowing how to DPS in the first place? I think so.....Could it be because they never get put into a DPS role therefore never knowing how to draw the most DPS out of the class cause they are always stuck in defense mode? But that makes no sense because Fnar can do it so why can't you, and sorry Fnar for using your name the most, you just seem like the most skilled voice in the coercer class out there, I am sure there is plenty of others that do just like you do (I know there is, I am guilded with one), but obviously not enough to show how over powering this LU45 is for Coercers.</p><p> As for the Tier 1 and 2 DPS remark, wow that made me laugh hard........you obviously haven't seen what real DPS classes do on these raids/groups where you see Illusionists parse 3-5k, and because you have no idea what they are doing you just assume that we are top of the parse? Nice......I see Wizzies, Warlocks, Assassins, Brigs, Swashies, Rangers (when in the correct group) all the way above me in DPS, when I am doing 4000 - 4500 DPS, they are around the 8000 - 10000+ DPS, <span style="color: #3399ff;">Since we just got past Nex/Druushk we aren't as a guild doing those kind of numbers yet, but yes the classes stated are much higher the the Illusionist. But you pointed out the comparision that we have been pointing out for some time. You stated Fnar was parsing 3K and you as an Illusionist are parsing 4-4.5K, Thanks for pointing that out for me. </span>you think this is a joke? Go join a raid with people who know how to play thier classes to the fullest extent on a consistant basis and have a look. I am talking consistantly here, people who ZW 7-8k DPS. I am not talking a measly burst parse that went for 8 seconds here grabbing my nuts thinking I am god because I fluked a parse in the high numbers and hit the screen shot button, because it's all about the [Removed for Content] right?</p><p> This is how LU45 has effected Coercers, grats on becoming tier 3 and situationally tier 2 dps on raids in the MT group <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />............. and grats on becoming tier 1 DPS in fully buffed DPS caster groups<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />. <span style="color: #3399ff;">Not since I don't do test, I'm waiting to see the live version, but don't really think we are going to see T1 dps, T3? Yes, T2? Only the Patron Saint will. </span>Like we didn't see this coming.<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> Anyone who has no clue as to what I am talking about, wait until this goes live because it will, they dragged it out too long and it goes live in 2 weeks.</p><p> Grats to Aeralik trying to treat us like morons and saying VM isn't the way it is intended to be after 2 years of it being that way and not to mention using it right in front of his face that way countless amounts of times when working on test and beta Expasion pack servers helping with solo/raid/group content.<span style="color: #3399ff;"> As I stated before, I'm not really happy about the change in VM either. It added more difficulty to our class and kept a lot of people away from it.</span></p><p>/rant off, drops microphone.</p></blockquote>

[ProteusTielaxi]

<p>Aonein.</p><p>For the vast majority of coercers (not that there are that many of us), about 1-1.5k IS the norm. Yes, there are those like Fnar. Not all of us raid VP however, nor have we all spent months getting the exact proc gear, and other special items needed to hit that 3kdps.</p><p>Quite frankly in my raids, I'm far to busy feeding power, stunning, mezzing, etc to dedicate myself 100% to dps. On some fights (SoH anyone?) if I don't feed power continuously, its a problem. Then again, like 99% of players on the server, most of us are not fully Fabled out. Master T8 spells? Ha! If they are on the broker..extremely rare, the dps spells go for well over 100pp. Try AdeptIII..which is only fractionally better than M1 T7.</p><p> Which leads to my point. You cannot..CANNOT expect classes to get balanced based on a few elite raiders. SOE knows this. Most people in this game solo or group. Perhaps 25% raid on a regular basis. As both a 70 illusionist who solo/groups, and an 80 Coercer main (raiding again), I can tell you for a FACT that illusionists do far more DPS in "the real world" of solo questing and instance grouping. That is the balance that is being addressed here. As far as raiding, etc..frankly, it doesn't matter. Coercers will be brought to tier 3 dps, on par, or perhaps slightly above illusionists, which is where we belonged from the start. Deal. If you don't like it, you can always betray, as so many Coercers did over the past year after the huge disparity in DPS that became apparent with ROK.</p><p>And finally, as far as VM goes, its a great move. The whole thing about sprinting to keep power low was, lets face it, completely moronic. EQ2 is a casual game for players who want to have fun..if you don't like it, there's always Vanguard, or EQLive</p><p>JMHO</p>

[-Aonein-]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>So... if I had the gear Fnar has and was in the mage group with the rest of the group as equipped as the mage group he is, I probably wouldn't parse as high as he does because he probably min/maxes harder than I do.  It doesn't make me a crappy coercer, it would only mean he's a better one.BUT, -I- am not the one ranting about how these changes are a Nerf to illusionists because the damage buff of VM has changed and because another class is getting a change to how it's spells react increasing their damage. YOU are the one who is ranting about how badly this nerfs illusionists and yet you've not posted even one comparison to back up your rant.And, what would you use VM for except for a damage boost?  The whole point of the Achievement is the damage increase.  At least I've read the spell description.</blockquote><p> Fnar only just got VP flagged about a week ago.......he was doing those numbers before he evem step'd foot inside VP.</p><p> Are you smoking crack Rij? 16 reactives vs 3? Do you read EQ2flames? I tend to think that majority of the so called players as you say, the people who are better go there, and seeing they do, have you seen the solo parses???? Do you even have a test copy toon at all that isn't a crafter?</p><p> The reason for using VM was not only for a damage increase, it defined the good players from the the bad, the people who wanted to put more into thier class, like you said, the people who want to be better used it, the people who didn't care for it, didn't use it.</p><p> Am I ranting about Illies getting nerfed? How is your reading comprehension ability? I am peev'd because of the lame excuses dev's like Aeralik use to define a major class change like this and then the oversight for what would happen which already is, the fact that you want to play it dumb and act like its a measly DPS upgrade when people are solo parsing 5-6k where before the change they were doing 2-3k kinda dictates this is no measly change and the fact that dev's like Aeralik obviously do not test every variable when making immense changes like this.</p><p> Again, print this into your skull. I do not need VM to dps, I do not care for your upgrades, I am actually glad to see it. I am dissapointed in how overpowered these changes are because of the lack of dev experience with thier own classes or the lack of understanding the real issues.</p>

[-Aonein-]

<cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> <span style="color: #3399ff;">Was going to just read for the most part and maybe learn something, but couldn't let this go by without response.</span></p><p> Ethier the small amount of Coercers that exsist are ethier dumb or playing on dumb.</p><p> Why do I say that? Most think that 1k DPS is the norm <span style="color: #3399ff;">No, about 1.5-1.9 is the norm.</span>......most think that mezzing on raids is the norm <span style="color: #3399ff;">I never mezz in raids, that's why we have 2 Illusionists</span>.......most think that we (illusionists) were tier 1 and 2 DPS, most think inside the MT group sceanrio <span style="color: #3399ff;">Yes we do since that is the only place we are allowed. </span>and nothing else, what you can't join a caster <span style="color: #3399ff;">No we can't, again, not allowed. MT Tank [I cannot control my vocabulary] so loud the one time we did it, I got to stay in the caster group for one mob.</span> DPS buffed group and parse like a Illusionist? You can't use a Mirror and respec for groups so you can do DPS and break 4k+ DPS in groups<span style="color: #3399ff;"> Yes I have a mirror and no I can't break 4K very often</span>, requires too much effort right, just want to sit back watching T.V and mash buttons? It's not Coercers fault they say when Aeralik said as plain as day that thier lack of DPS is what inspired these changes to begin with..........utterly clueless.</p><p> Why is it so that Fnar, most likely one your best Coercers can do 3k+ DPS in the MT group on raids?<span style="color: #3399ff;"> If you are telling me that on every mob in VP that Fnar is punching 3K dps, then I guess the rest of your statements are true, 99.99 % of the rest of us are just useless slobs that don't know how to play our class. I only hit 3K on a few AoE mobs like the sentries.</span> Do you guys even know what he sacrafices being in the MT group let alone what he has to do in there that actually lowers his DPS?<span style="color: #3399ff;"> Oh goody, our first Saint, Fnar the Patron Saint of the rest of the stupid Coercers.</span> He also, in groups, parses consistantly 3-5k+ depending on the fight. So wouldn't it be safe to say that the DPS problem never lied with Illusionists doing more but with the people playing the Coercer class themselves not knowing how to DPS in the first place? I think so.....Could it be because they never get put into a DPS role therefore never knowing how to draw the most DPS out of the class cause they are always stuck in defense mode? But that makes no sense because Fnar can do it so why can't you, and sorry Fnar for using your name the most, you just seem like the most skilled voice in the coercer class out there, I am sure there is plenty of others that do just like you do (I know there is, I am guilded with one), but obviously not enough to show how over powering this LU45 is for Coercers.</p><p> As for the Tier 1 and 2 DPS remark, wow that made me laugh hard........you obviously haven't seen what real DPS classes do on these raids/groups where you see Illusionists parse 3-5k, and because you have no idea what they are doing you just assume that we are top of the parse? Nice......I see Wizzies, Warlocks, Assassins, Brigs, Swashies, Rangers (when in the correct group) all the way above me in DPS, when I am doing 4000 - 4500 DPS, they are around the 8000 - 10000+ DPS, <span style="color: #3399ff;">Since we just got past Nex/Druushk we aren't as a guild doing those kind of numbers yet, but yes the classes stated are much higher the the Illusionist. But you pointed out the comparision that we have been pointing out for some time. You stated Fnar was parsing 3K and you as an Illusionist are parsing 4-4.5K, Thanks for pointing that out for me. </span>you think this is a joke? Go join a raid with people who know how to play thier classes to the fullest extent on a consistant basis and have a look. I am talking consistantly here, people who ZW 7-8k DPS. I am not talking a measly burst parse that went for 8 seconds here grabbing my nuts thinking I am god because I fluked a parse in the high numbers and hit the screen shot button, because it's all about the [Removed for Content] right?</p><p> This is how LU45 has effected Coercers, grats on becoming tier 3 and situationally tier 2 dps on raids in the MT group <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />............. and grats on becoming tier 1 DPS in fully buffed DPS caster groups<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />. <span style="color: #3399ff;">Not since I don't do test, I'm waiting to see the live version, but don't really think we are going to see T1 dps, T3? Yes, T2? Only the Patron Saint will. </span>Like we didn't see this coming.<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> Anyone who has no clue as to what I am talking about, wait until this goes live because it will, they dragged it out too long and it goes live in 2 weeks.</p><p> Grats to Aeralik trying to treat us like morons and saying VM isn't the way it is intended to be after 2 years of it being that way and not to mention using it right in front of his face that way countless amounts of times when working on test and beta Expasion pack servers helping with solo/raid/group content.<span style="color: #3399ff;"> As I stated before, I'm not really happy about the change in VM either. It added more difficulty to our class and kept a lot of people away from it.</span></p><p>/rant off, drops microphone.</p></blockquote></blockquote><p> Im too lazy to cut and paste your rambling crap so I'll attack it in point form:</p><ol><li>We never mezz on raids, totally uneeded and we also have 2 illies on each raid. One mob in the entire game actually needs mezzing, if you think that defines the illy class, then yeah....what ever, mind you, majority of the games Illies wont even see this content.</li><li>We used to always have 2 Coercers on a raid and he used to get first perference in caster groups simply because he was doing 4k+ DPS.</li><li>I like to imagine the reason you cannot hit 4k dps is because you need time to adjust, playing a MT role for so long then switching to DPS role takes a certain degree of learning curve, it's a totally different kettle of fish, casting rotation isn;t even the same.</li><li>Fnar is doing 2.4 - 3k+ constantly, like I said he only just got into VP, obviously some mobs no <b><u>enchanter</u></b> gets high numbers, do not patronize me, and use your brain. Our very own Coercer in our guild gets anywhere between 2.3 - 3k+ on trash in the MT group, obviously takes a dip on named mobs because he isn't going all out DPS and has his <b><u>utility</u></b> role to play.</li><li>The fact that you use Fnars 3k dps in a MT group compaired to my 4-4.5k dps in a DPS group to point out your so called issues, just goes to show how clueless you are.......</li><li>If you understand how enchanter DPS works, we need time to punch it out, that being said the fact that on test they are doing 5-6k solo dps in a short period of 10 - 15 seconds should be able to spell it out for you. The fact that majority of your newly found skills and spells are on extermelly short recast timers with a over excessive amount of reactives is why the changes make you over powered.</li></ol><p>I expect to see changes or your not only going to have alot of peev'd Illies when this goes live, but alot of other classes who fight to play thier class well and get over taken so easily by a utility class. I'm talking <b><u>real</u></b> DPS classes.</p>

[-Aonein-]

<cite>ProteusTielaxi wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Aonein.</p><p>For the vast majority of coercers (not that there are that many of us), about 1-1.5k IS the norm. Yes, there are those like Fnar. Not all of us raid VP however, nor have we all spent months getting the exact proc gear, and other special items needed to hit that 3kdps.</p><p>Quite frankly in my raids, I'm far to busy feeding power, stunning, mezzing, etc to dedicate myself 100% to dps. On some fights (SoH anyone?) if I don't feed power continuously, its a problem. Then again, like 99% of players on the server, most of us are not fully Fabled out. Master T8 spells? Ha! If they are on the broker..extremely rare, the dps spells go for well over 100pp. Try AdeptIII..which is only fractionally better than M1 T7.</p><p> Which leads to my point. You cannot..CANNOT expect classes to get balanced based on a few elite raiders. SOE knows this. Most people in this game solo or group. Perhaps 25% raid on a regular basis. As both a 70 illusionist who solo/groups, and an 80 Coercer main (raiding again), I can tell you for a FACT that illusionists do far more DPS in "the real world" of solo questing and instance grouping. That is the balance that is being addressed here. As far as raiding, etc..frankly, it doesn't matter. Coercers will be brought to tier 3 dps, on par, or perhaps slightly above illusionists, which is where we belonged from the start. Deal. If you don't like it, you can always betray, as so many Coercers did over the past year after the huge disparity in DPS that became apparent with ROK.</p><p>And finally, as far as VM goes, its a great move. The whole thing about sprinting to keep power low was, lets face it, completely moronic. EQ2 is a casual game for players who want to have fun..if you don't like it, there's always Vanguard, or EQLive</p><p>JMHO</p></blockquote><p> Fnar only just hit VP like a week ago, maybe 2 actually, I am not exactally sure but he was doing these numbers even before he stepped foot inside VP.</p><p> Proc gear is old school Tier 7 DPS gainer, you simply do not need proc gear anymore to do strong DPS, +spell dmg mods and high spell crit will net you a bigger return because of the normalization on our chances to proc in reguards to fast spell cast timers.</p><p> Your 100% right, the main reason you parse so low is because your utility role in the MT group takes priority or you would be able to parse alot higher, you are not in the MT group to do DPS, you are there for survivability.</p><p> Last point, I never started this whole debate based of *elite* raiders, just because your a person who raids alot doesn't make you a good player, there is plenty of good players out there who are not in raids, some of the best players in the game imho are simply not raiders. The way people play thier classes is what defines a good player from a bad player, the effort people put in defines a good player from a bad player.</p><p> The whole reason behind my debate was pointing out that Aeralik has such a disconnected link between the issues at hand and what he thinks the real issues are not to mention the sheer over sight to the changes he implemented. Does this mean I am against the DPS increase to Coercers? No, I could care less I am actually glad to see them pay them some attention, but a little more think could of gone into them thats for sure so the skills were not so over powered. 16 procs vs 3? thats just the tip of the ice berg. It will become more apprent when more people are testing then changes instead of the 5-7 Coercers that are on test actually testing it.</p><p> You need to understand why these changes are being implemented, the changes are being implemented because of the DPS difference between Coercers and Illusionists, now where o where could of Aeralik obtained these numbers that gave him the urge to make such a huge improvement like he did other then based of the numbers that are generated in raid, because quite honestly, the difference between solo and group coercers and illusionists is minimal, with in maybe 300 - 700 dps. Hardly anything to justify a 3k dps increase imho sorry to say.</p><p> I expect this to be blantant over sight for the most part of the devs side and it might get adjusted, if it doesn't........Trust me, Illies aren't the ones you gotta worry about crying for a nerf to Coercers thats for sure.</p>

[Jeepned2]

<cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>Trust me, Illies aren't the ones you gotta worry about crying for a nerf to Coercers thats for sure.</p></blockquote>Since you've made so many post in so many places, just to hard to reply to them. But on the point above, as long as it's only [Removed for Content]'s like you crying, then I feel pretty safe.

[Rijacki]

<cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>So... if I had the gear Fnar has and was in the mage group with the rest of the group as equipped as the mage group he is, I probably wouldn't parse as high as he does because he probably min/maxes harder than I do.  It doesn't make me a crappy coercer, it would only mean he's a better one.BUT, -I- am not the one ranting about how these changes are a Nerf to illusionists because the damage buff of VM has changed and because another class is getting a change to how it's spells react increasing their damage. YOU are the one who is ranting about how badly this nerfs illusionists and yet you've not posted even one comparison to back up your rant.And, what would you use VM for except for a damage boost?  The whole point of the Achievement is the damage increase.  At least I've read the spell description.</blockquote><p> Fnar only just got VP flagged about a week ago.......he was doing those numbers before he evem step'd foot inside VP.</p><p> Are you smoking crack Rij? 16 reactives vs 3? Do you read EQ2flames? I tend to think that majority of the so called players as you say, the people who are better go there, and seeing they do, have you seen the solo parses???? Do you even have a test copy toon at all that isn't a crafter?</p><p> The reason for using VM was not only for a damage increase, it defined the good players from the the bad, the people who wanted to put more into thier class, like you said, the people who want to be better used it, the people who didn't care for it, didn't use it.</p><p> Am I ranting about Illies getting nerfed? How is your reading comprehension ability? I am peev'd because of the lame excuses dev's like Aeralik use to define a major class change like this and then the oversight for what would happen which already is, the fact that you want to play it dumb and act like its a measly DPS upgrade when people are solo parsing 5-6k where before the change they were doing 2-3k kinda dictates this is no measly change and the fact that dev's like Aeralik obviously do not test every variable when making immense changes like this.</p><p> Again, print this into your skull. I do not need VM to dps, I do not care for your upgrades, I am actually glad to see it. I am dissapointed in how overpowered these changes are because of the lack of dev experience with thier own classes or the lack of understanding the real issues.</p></blockquote>For someone who enjoys calling people stupid and other names and claims their reading comprehension is low because they don't agree with you, you obviously either don't read anything except your own posts and a line or two in other people's posts before you attack them for disagreeing with them on anything.  Heck, you even attack them for agreeing with you on some of your points.I have a copy on Test Copy.  I was one of the first to publically post my parses and state the changes are overpowered. I not only posted some on this board, I also made a page with additional comparisons because it's graphic intensive and that's hard to read on a forum: <a href="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/Comparison.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">My comparisons</a>.  Click the link unless you're too blind to see it or you enjoy wearing blinders and ignoring what anyone else says (even if it agrees with some of what you're saying). My single level 80 tradeskiller is not copied to Test Copy.  My level 80 coercer is a level 65ish tailor and my level 28 coercer is a 35ish provisioner, but neither of them were copied to Test Copy for any tradeskilling.  I didn't copy any tradeskill focused character to Test Copy for this upcoming GU.  Just because I am also involved in tradeskilling doesn't mean it's my sole focus (ironically, there are tradeskillers with their sole focus as crafting who vilify me for being an adventurer and casual raider *laugh*).Or, are you claiming the only players capable of making any comparisons at all must post on EQ2Flames?  Frankly, I don't like the risk of having my private info or private messages posted publically.  A site which has a ToS that declares any information posted there publically or privately is the fair game of the board admins or anyone else is nothing short of a security nightmare. If I could remove the details from the login account I made there about a year ago, I would. I also have never liked profanity laced conversations in any venue.  Granted, in the past, before the breeches of privacy, there were only a scant few in the coercer forum who would descend to more profanity than substance in their posts (which is why it was the only forum I read there).BUT, those who have posted parses on the SOE boards (including me) AGREE WITH YOU that the changes are too high. That's evident in a solo parse compared to a solo parse of -any other class-. Most, including me, don't agree with you in your declarations that coercers didn't need any form of improvements.  Coercers (and even a player of any other class) with half a brain know that reactives which rely on the mob doing damage are an issue when the whole effort of the raid force, or a group, is to prevent the mob doing damage and that reactives relying on the mob using power is stupid when raid mobs and most named mobs were changed a few years ago to use abilities, not power using spells or CAs.I'm so glad you're raid force has 2 coercers and you actually want to use 2 coercers.  We have one, me.  We also only have one illusionist.  I get stuffed in the MT group though I'd even prefer to be in our mixed melee/mage group even if it would mean I don't use Demeanor.  It's the group I preferred as a dirge, too.  Oh.. yeah.. I was raiding with a dirge in T7.  I didn't get my coercer to level 70 until just under a month before RoK went Live.  We looked to be getting dirge heavy and I wanted a change to something new and different (and the guild opened up to both alignments, not just Qeynos based ones, our own limitation, not because of PvP). A LOT of Fnar's damage comes from proc gear.  There is a derth of proc gear in T8.  You do need to have been raiding in T7 as a coercer and/or gotten dedication from groups and/or raid force to help a coercer obtain some of the proc items Fnar has.  I also think it's super that he has that kind of help to make him shine that much more.  As for using VM as an elitist divisor. Grow up! If you need something so paultry to show who can put in more effort, you've put blinders on.  Even without the sprinting enchanters, those who are excellent, those who are good, and those who are meager will be evident.  Without the 30% power provisio, it will also make it possible  for an enchanter to do their group/ally power providing roles more effectively while still keeping up in the damage.  After the change, the excellent coercer will be doing both more.  The meager coercer will likely still be plodding along doing either power providing or damage dealing.  Anyone who relied solely on VM to stand out will drop into the meager pile because they never really were more than meager using a crutch.Me, right now, I can hit the parse as one of the top ten (in the MT group, without the mythical epic, and not in great gear), if the fight is long enough, while still providing power to those in the MT group and possibly a few others in groups without any bard or enchanter (we recently lost 3 dirges to the real life monster).  I know -could- apply myself and min/max up to the hard-core elite, if that's what I wanted (i.e. if I wanted -that- level of stress, etc).  I have no illusions.  I know I'm not the greatest and part of that is because I made the decision to enjoy the game at a different level than that.It's not just those in the hard-core raid guilds hitting the highest content that play this game or that can see the implications of changes or that can see flaws in the game or that are even capable players or even that can be dedicated to the game in one or more aspect of gameplay (in fact, treading into stereotype territory, I would hazard a guess that few who are in the hard-core raid guilds have any experience or dedication to any other aspect of gameplay). Just like in real life, the person with a doctorate in history, for example, is not any better than the person who has a BA but delves deeply into historical tomes and data.  The doctorate only proves and displays the hoops that person has jumped through, not his capabilities (that was said to me by one of my professors who had a doctorate in history while I was getting my grad school recommendation letter from him, something I did know.. and was willing to, at the time, jump through hoops for). Being in a hard-core raid guild doesn't necessarily make you a greater or more knowledgable player, it just indicates the hoops you were willing to jump through.

[-Aonein-]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Aonein- wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>So... if I had the gear Fnar has and was in the mage group with the rest of the group as equipped as the mage group he is, I probably wouldn't parse as high as he does because he probably min/maxes harder than I do.  It doesn't make me a crappy coercer, it would only mean he's a better one.BUT, -I- am not the one ranting about how these changes are a Nerf to illusionists because the damage buff of VM has changed and because another class is getting a change to how it's spells react increasing their damage. YOU are the one who is ranting about how badly this nerfs illusionists and yet you've not posted even one comparison to back up your rant.And, what would you use VM for except for a damage boost?  The whole point of the Achievement is the damage increase.  At least I've read the spell description.</blockquote><p> Fnar only just got VP flagged about a week ago.......he was doing those numbers before he evem step'd foot inside VP.</p><p> Are you smoking crack Rij? 16 reactives vs 3? Do you read EQ2flames? I tend to think that majority of the so called players as you say, the people who are better go there, and seeing they do, have you seen the solo parses???? Do you even have a test copy toon at all that isn't a crafter?</p><p> The reason for using VM was not only for a damage increase, it defined the good players from the the bad, the people who wanted to put more into thier class, like you said, the people who want to be better used it, the people who didn't care for it, didn't use it.</p><p> Am I ranting about Illies getting nerfed? How is your reading comprehension ability? I am peev'd because of the lame excuses dev's like Aeralik use to define a major class change like this and then the oversight for what would happen which already is, the fact that you want to play it dumb and act like its a measly DPS upgrade when people are solo parsing 5-6k where before the change they were doing 2-3k kinda dictates this is no measly change and the fact that dev's like Aeralik obviously do not test every variable when making immense changes like this.</p><p> Again, print this into your skull. I do not need VM to dps, I do not care for your upgrades, I am actually glad to see it. I am dissapointed in how overpowered these changes are because of the lack of dev experience with thier own classes or the lack of understanding the real issues.</p></blockquote>For someone who enjoys calling people stupid and other names and claims their reading comprehension is low because they don't agree with you, you obviously either don't read anything except your own posts and a line or two in other people's posts before you attack them for disagreeing with them on anything.  Heck, you even attack them for agreeing with you on some of your points.I have a copy on Test Copy.  I was one of the first to publically post my parses and state the changes are overpowered. I not only posted some on this board, I also made a page with additional comparisons because it's graphic intensive and that's hard to read on a forum: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2alchemy.com/rjack/CoercerTest/Comparison.html" target="_blank">My comparisons</a>.  Click the link unless you're too blind to see it or you enjoy wearing blinders and ignoring what anyone else says (even if it agrees with some of what you're saying). My single level 80 tradeskiller is not copied to Test Copy.  My level 80 coercer is a level 65ish tailor and my level 28 coercer is a 35ish provisioner, but neither of them were copied to Test Copy for any tradeskilling.  I didn't copy any tradeskill focused character to Test Copy for this upcoming GU.  Just because I am also involved in tradeskilling doesn't mean it's my sole focus (ironically, there are tradeskillers with their sole focus as crafting who vilify me for being an adventurer and casual raider *laugh*).Or, are you claiming the only players capable of making any comparisons at all must post on EQ2Flames?  Frankly, I don't like the risk of having my private info or private messages posted publically.  A site which has a ToS that declares any information posted there publically or privately is the fair game of the board admins or anyone else is nothing short of a security nightmare. If I could remove the details from the login account I made there about a year ago, I would. I also have never liked profanity laced conversations in any venue.  Granted, in the past, before the breeches of privacy, there were only a scant few in the coercer forum who would descend to more profanity than substance in their posts (which is why it was the only forum I read there).BUT, those who have posted parses on the SOE boards (including me) AGREE WITH YOU that the changes are too high. That's evident in a solo parse compared to a solo parse of -any other class-. Most, including me, don't agree with you in your declarations that coercers didn't need any form of improvements.  Coercers (and even a player of any other class) with half a brain know that reactives which rely on the mob doing damage are an issue when the whole effort of the raid force, or a group, is to prevent the mob doing damage and that reactives relying on the mob using power is stupid when raid mobs and most named mobs were changed a few years ago to use abilities, not power using spells or CAs.I'm so glad you're raid force has 2 coercers and you actually want to use 2 coercers.  We have one, me.  We also only have one illusionist.  I get stuffed in the MT group though I'd even prefer to be in our mixed melee/mage group even if it would mean I don't use Demeanor.  It's the group I preferred as a dirge, too.  Oh.. yeah.. I was raiding with a dirge in T7.  I didn't get my coercer to level 70 until just under a month before RoK went Live.  We looked to be getting dirge heavy and I wanted a change to something new and different (and the guild opened up to both alignments, not just Qeynos based ones, our own limitation, not because of PvP). A LOT of Fnar's damage comes from proc gear.  There is a derth of proc gear in T8.  You do need to have been raiding in T7 as a coercer and/or gotten dedication from groups and/or raid force to help a coercer obtain some of the proc items Fnar has.  I also think it's super that he has that kind of help to make him shine that much more.  As for using VM as an elitist divisor. Grow up! If you need something so paultry to show who can put in more effort, you've put blinders on.  Even without the sprinting enchanters, those who are excellent, those who are good, and those who are meager will be evident.  Without the 30% power provisio, it will also make it possible  for an enchanter to do their group/ally power providing roles more effectively while still keeping up in the damage.  After the change, the excellent coercer will be doing both more.  The meager coercer will likely still be plodding along doing either power providing or damage dealing.  Anyone who relied solely on VM to stand out will drop into the meager pile because they never really were more than meager using a crutch.Me, right now, I can hit the parse as one of the top ten (in the MT group, without the mythical epic, and not in great gear),  pif the fight is long enough, while still providing power to those in the MT group and possibly a few others in groups without any bard or enchanter (we recently lost 3 dirges to the real life monster).  I know -could- apply myself and min/max up to the hard-core elite, if that's what I wanted (i.e. if I wanted -that- level of stress, etc).  I have no illusions.  I know I'm not the greatest and part of that is because I made the decision to enjoy the game at a different level than that.It's not just those in the hard-core raid guilds hitting the highest content that play this game or that can see the implications of changes or that can see flaws in the game or that are even capable players or even that can be dedicated to the game in one or more aspect of gameplay (in fact, treading into stereotype territory, I would hazard a guess that few who are in the hard-core raid guilds have any experience or dedication to any other aspect of gameplay). Just like in real life, the person with a doctorate in history, for example, is not any better than the person who has a BA but delves deeply into historical tomes and data.  The doctorate only proves and displays the hoops that person has jumped through, not his capabilities (that was said to me by one of my professors who had a doctorate in history while I was getting my grad school recommendation letter from him, something I did know.. and was willing to, at the time, jump through hoops for). Being in a hard-core raid guild doesn't necessarily make you a greater or more knowledgable player, it just indicates the hoops you were willing to jump through.</blockquote><p> Your a hypocrit Rij plain and simple and I am sorely dissapointed that someone who has played the game as long as you have having a strong understanding of a raid enviroment especially in reguards to MT group vs DPS group can be so blind. Ethier your doing it on purpose to justify this overpowered change OR you just really are that clueless.</p><p> There is nothing I haven't said or explained that will be just me rehashing all over again, the whole fact that you think it takes *hard core* or *elite* players to play thier class well pretty much says it all, another fact is yes I agree with you that while EQ2flames is not a very friendly style board and people are allowed to post what ever, where ever and how ever, people are alot better players there, not because of the [Removed for Content] flashing, but simply I find the majority of people who post on EQ2flames to be the better players in EQ2. Fact, that you think I said that coercers didn't need any improvement when we all know they did, thats your reading comprehension disability playing mind games with you, I have even said specifically that yes they needed adjustments, with a few skills. Fact, that your trying to justify your changes based around casual vs casual............don't understand? Casual people can be and more often are just as good as your so called *hard core* or *elite* players they are just less vocal about it and fly below the radar, because like you they like to have fun, but for those who aren't willing to put the effort in to have that same fun play on dumb to try and keep this change because you and I and all the other good coercers know how over powered these changes are and therefore gives the people who don't have the patience or will power to put the effort in more streamlined for them, making it easier for them to do DPS. Please do not rehash the same bs "but this is what we would be doing DPS wise if our reactives worked", you know why that is BS, because SoE would of nerfed you guys long ago if thats the case, you know how SoE works and you know this.</p><p> Let me get back on track here, let me ask you this question, if VM wasn't working as intended, how in the hell would of we ever got to 30% mana in the first place during any fight? Now I want you to think long and hard before blurting out a reply in reguards to your previous experience with solo, group and raid encounters and think about how often you really are under 30% mana if ever at all.  About the only way we could of was with power drains and we all know how they work, they completely drain you leaving you almost no way of doing DPS except for mana feeding everyone. This I do not expect you to understand, especially with Channeling. I think it is safe to say that in the event there was no sprint we would of never got down to 30% mana to put VM to use at all, same can be said about a few final class abilities, ie: Berserker STR final that is a total waste of time because how often are you below 40% HP? Unless your healers suck, never.</p><p> So enough with the bantering and rambling and rehashing Rij. You've acknowledge that yes these changes are over powered and yes I agree with you, I do not want to see them revert it, I want your reactives to work as they are, but I would like to see ethier the dmg reduced OR reactive charges reduced, ethier way you still have them working the same. This is not my debate though, my main debate all along has been with Aeralik grouse neglect for insight in the classes and what they really need plus the fact he didn't even see this happening, you can add right Rij? Not hard to do a simply math equation as 2+5 = 7 is it?</p>

[Rijacki]

I'm trying to figure out how you can say I am justifying the overpowered aspect of this change AND acknowledge that I think, as it is on Test right now, it's over powered.  I am looking at the solo numbers, even just my own, and am applying my knowledge of how other buffs work,k how other classes work, and am extrapolating that the damage amounts on Test right now are over powered.  I've said that they're over powered over and over and over from the very night when they were put on Test.  I have -never- said a change -this- over powered was justified.  -I- also never ever ever said these would have been the damage coercers would do if their reactives worked right.  That was someone completely different and I've scoffed at that idea (but haven't attacked her for it because I don't think attacking people, calling them names, etc, does anything other than show my own immaturity).  Unless you're attributing every post disagreeing with any part of your own position as coming from me, you really should comprehend that there isn't just one coercer responding on the coercer boards and coercers, like any other group, don't think in exact tandem.<b>VM</b>In a long fight, without Pond Wash and the thousands of other +power items in RoK, it is possible and plausible to get to low power even without starting at less than 50% from sprinting between fights.  If you get adds, either by script or by hapenstance, extending the fight even longer, it is quite plausible to get to low power in exactly the same way it's possible and likely for a 'zerk to get to low health and stay there for a while.Personally, I think what Aeralik meant by it not being what the design team meant for its use was that it hamstrings them.  Adding items into the game that proc power negate the effect they wanted to give as a bonus.  Having the coercers mythical epic return 60% of power instead of 10% negates the effort a coercer put in to obtaining the bonus.  Having enchanters not want to be in a group with a mythical equipped mystic.. etc.  The developers looked at the issues people have been complaining about since RoK launched in relation to getting the VM bonus and said "hmm, that's not what we intended, we didn't mean for them to negate the effects of a buff that takes a lot of effort to get."  Instead of nerfing all the power granting items, adjusting the coercer mythical, etc etc. They decided to change the way VM works so that it gives -them- more room to add things to the game.In my opinion, the change to Sprint (not draining power when not moving out of combat) also wasn't done to effect VM directly but that change, like the others I mentioned above, did have the side effect to VM and -that- isn't what they intended.I personally think the change to VM will help define the excellent from the good from the decent from the mediocre even more.  You won't be able to assume "hey his power is less than 50% before the fight, he must be a good enchanter", you will actually have to look at his numbers and how much of his other roles (like pushing power and pushing hate, for the coercer) that enchanter does in addition to their damage output.  Enchanters won't have the easy button crutch of "just keep your power hovering around here", they will actually have to work to define and distinguish themselves.

[Mihos]

<p>After trying the changes on test, my solo DPS is actually up.  I am missing a couple of pieces of gear I have on live, but just the times you pop over 30% breifly have to work in a sprint, or go too low and miss a cast was costing the the 10% on base damage anyway.  Some of the spikes you see with the mythical (especially on AE fights) would pop you up every once in awhile.  (not to mention the stupid mystic mythical effect!)  I can do without the power drain doing damage change, I never run out of spells to cast to worry about working in a long cast/recast time spell like that.</p><p>I couldn't find a raid on test to get any good info from that, but from what I was able to do, I think most people are over reacting.</p><p>As far as coercer damage goes, I am glad they are getting a boost.  They were hurting for a long time.  </p><p>Edit: The pet nuking more might be what is making my solo DPS higher, its really hard to see what is going on without doing a normal raid with our troubs since I can't get a good baseline.   Do the coercer changes even proc PoM?</p>