Coercer Changes in LU45

[Aeralik]

LU45 will see some significant changes to the coercer class.  You guys appear far behind on dps especially compared to your illusionist counterparts so its time for some changes.  These changes are preliminary and subject to change of course before going to test or while on test.Possession - You guys dislike it and I think I dislike it even more.  So this spell is getting a big change.  Instead of temporarily controlling a creature, it will keep with the possession theme by creating an essence of the creature that is a controllable pet.  It basically turns into an always on pseudo charm pet.  This pet won't be able to zone or anything but you can at least use it in dungeons with groups or raids.  Reactives - These will be more oriented to players triggering them rather than having to rely on the npcs to trigger them.  In addition, Cataclysmic mind will get an upgrade and be similar to the illusionist reactive except that it triggers off damaging spells hitting the mob.Dehate Line - If the target of the spell gets aggro they will trigger a hate position loss instead of damage which should be more in line with the use of the spell.Volatile Magic - This will change for all enchanters.  The spell does not play well since I see many of the enchanters just spamming sprint to stay under 30% power.  That really wasn't the intention of the skill at all.  Instead it will be a reduced amount that applies regardless of your current power amount.Power drains - To compensate some for the reduction to Volatile Magic, both enchanter subclasses will be getting their power drains turned into damage.  In their current state these are more useful for their control effects rather than the actual power drains.  After the changes the spells should be a bit more useful.Mana Ward - This will change to be a powerful ward based on the amount of mana the coercer has remaining.  It won't be as powerful as soul ward but it will be similar and thus a lot more useful.Coercive healing - I haven't decided on exact specifics of this but it will see some changes to bring it more in line with illusionist aa lines.Tashania - This will change to be extremely hard to resist and apply to all magical damage types.  This should make it something you use on pull to help land debuffs with the new raid resists.Feel free to post comments below. I will be reviewing them over time and as you react to them on test.  As always make sure your feedback is constructive since that helps me the most.  Also please keep the discussion coercer/enchanter oriented so that things are easier for me to find without having to read through off topic posts.

[Lleinen]

<p>Im glad our time has come and am extremely happy with what your proposing and will be testing the HELL out of it for you.</p><p>Thankyou sir!</p><p>As for feedback :I love the idea with mana ward AA, working like soulward but not as good, its still a nice emergency ward to have.As for coercive healing idea.  I believe adding 15% to ALL heals and wards (not limited to reactives, wards, regen heals), with either a casting speed or reuse speed bonus.  Also would this remain a beef to healers only while illusionists get the melee only buff?  25% DA is pretty big so Id go even for 20% to all heals with a 15-20% casting speed bonus.  Not sure how "in-line" that would fall but I know people love IA, so lets make it so healers REALLY want CH. </p><p>Im still slightly confused on puppetmaster, but it sounds like you can copy a mob your fighting and summon that (obviously scaled down).  Lemme know if im correct.  Also, would there be a concentration cost on this and would the pet be a feasible thing to do (as in, would it be WORTH it to summon this in a raid or not?).I love the change to VM.  That would fix the way group mana flow is working on the epic and allow us to be more creative with our gear choices instead of having to have power proc items on 24/7 like now.Dehate line, by hate position lost do you mean -xxxx hate or -x hate positions?  If positions thats good, although most people we put it on get 1 shotted, it would still help a lot.  Also, would this trigger of spells only or melee?  Either way its good for when a raid mob AEs.Reactives/Cata Mind, I love your thinking.</p><p>So we would see a dot+stun and dot+stifle on intrepid focus and harrowing silence respectively vs. the power drain?  I wonder, also, would the damage on brainshock and dissecting gaze be upp'd to compensate for the loss of power drain on those spells as well?Tashiana change, awsome, just like in eq1, a great idea.  Hard to resist and debuffs everything, great idea!</p>

[Cawti]

This looks like a *great* start, Thank you!!!!I will make sure Cawti's test copy is up to date.

[Tiko_7801]

O-M-F-G it may be time to betray to coercer!!!!!!!!!!! Of course it depends on what really ends up happening!!!! I really like time compression will be hard to make it worth it.....but def going to look again at the coercer after this.

[Supp]

<p>Is that possession change theoretically application to all charm capable classes? In this case, I'm speaking of the necro charm, which breaks so often that it's detrimental to use. I believe druids can also charm. Any chance of that change being universal?</p>

[madha]

<p>Now i love you...</p><p>But how am i going to pick my aa now if tash is fixed and mana ward is fixed i might have to drop thoughtsnap, unless u gona increase the duration =P.  Can u remove the coercer aa spec for mindbend, i realy never use this spell.</p><p>Any words on any of the sugestins to allow fotr t8 upgrades to enraging demenor and impetus. They are great by themselfes dont get my wrong but i dont want to be locked into using a t5 spell in t20. </p><p>And OMG I want ur babies and im a  man </p>

[Cawti]

Possession is not "charm".  It is the coercer level 65 special spell which currently so useless I've only casted it maybe 10 times total in the 2 years I've had it.<cite>Supple wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Is that possession change theoretically application to all charm capable classes? In this case, I'm speaking of the necro charm, which breaks so often that it's detrimental to use. I believe druids can also charm. Any chance of that change being universal?</p></blockquote>

[Sonorod]

<p>I think I might cry.</p><p> Thank you so so much!</p><p><strike> What about thoughtstones?  I hear Nil crystals are going away and it's been rumored so are thoughtstones and their generators?</strike></p><p>Never mind, I found the posts about them.</p><p> So the update comes out tomorrow..right? right? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Xalmat]

Wow.... Talk about some loving! They needed it too.

[Mr. Dawki]

<p>Rather than nerfing the dmg to volitile magic try making it a bit more complicated to use. Here is my idea</p><p> Volitile magic- Increases spell dmg by 30% but drains 15% pwr every 5 seconds can be toggled on and off at will. Instant cast. instant recast.</p><p>Concidering the amount of pwr a chanter can give back to themselfs you may need to raise the pwr cost. This way it still takes some skill to use and still gives them the kick they wanted in the first  place.</p>

[Scry]

<p>Thank you for the update its good to know that finally we are getting looked at and getting some changes that will at least mitigate some of the serious problems we coercer's are struggling with.</p><p>I will look forward to seeing what gets onto the test server and then to the live servers, here is hoping that maybe just maybe with these changes the tide will turn for us.</p>

[Ishniana]

*The puppetmaster spell definitely needs to be looked in to, currently it is more of a fun spell than anything else.*Reactives, the way I read it you are changing them to proc off spells coming in to the mob, what about the Auspex type line would that be based more off melee?

[Lleinen]

<cite>Sonorod wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I think I might cry.</p><p> Thank you so so much!</p><p> What about thoughtstones?  I hear Nil crystals are going away and it's been rumored so are thoughtstones and their generators?</p></blockquote><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=414918�" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...414918�</a></p><p>Aeralik said : Nil crystals were actually removed because I was removing the coercer thoughtstones with some other changes.  So for consistency sake I removed all the components.  It's a bigger impact for warlocks hence the post about it in their forums <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Lleinen]

<cite>Mr. Dawkins wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Rather than nerfing the dmg to volitile magic try making it a bit more complicated to use. Here is my idea</p><p> Volitile magic- Increases spell dmg by 30% but drains 15% pwr every 5 seconds can be toggled on and off at will. Instant cast. instant recast.</p><p>Concidering the amount of pwr a chanter can give back to themselfs you may need to raise the pwr cost. This way it still takes some skill to use and still gives them the kick they wanted in the first  place.</p></blockquote><p>Not a bad idea but 15% every 5sec is some crazy arrse power drain.Personally I like VM not requiring mana and getting nerfed slightly, to say 15-20%?  Not having to worry about power to do damage would be nice for a change, especially with the other changes comming, keeping the 30% damage might be overpowering.</p><p><img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Balrok]

<p>I think I might ask my guild if I can betray back.  .....<i> "might".  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></i></p>

[Wilin]

<p>I have really wanted to play my coercer alt for a long time, but every time I seem to get into them, they get nerfed to hell. I also feel bad for coercers who want to raid because the argument has been growing that they are not even wanted for a raid slot. This news is absolutely wonderful though.</p><p>I sincerely hope that all of this gets sorted out because it has been long overdue.</p>

[KamidariTuibumbi]

Wow, this all looks great, "on paper".  I look forward to seeing all the changes on test! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[zorros]

Ok i know this is about Coercers and im glad you guys have got some love but while we have someones attention can some one please look again at illusionists pets. They still dont keep up with us. Its very annoying to have to run around in stealth in pvp just so if i see someone or i get attacked my pet isnt 2 mins away from me.VM change btw is fab. Since you guys nerfed the stay incombat tactic i found it increasingly stupid to have to keep spaming sprint all the time cos im lazy lol and as for the mana drain change thats just totally fantastic !!!.I just hope its not too late.

[Aurumn]

<p>/cheer Aeralik</p><p>Finally some sunshine in the Coercer forums. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> Maybe now some of the gloomies will perk up a bit. </p><p>I must say I'm rather impressed with the scope of the changes and the fact that it looks like the stickied class issues thread was listened to... I see a lot of familiar ideas in there. So... is Testcopy up and running for me to drop my Mezzy over there for tinkering? *crosses fingers* Of course, I'm sort of kicking myself for not picking up a copy of Possession while it was cheap... I'd imagine the selling price will spike now. </p>

[Flipmode]

<p>From someone who is usually critical and hard on the devs allow me to say THANK YOU!!!  I actually resubscribed to the game to type this and test the changes when you get the patch out.  If you can fix coercers, I have no doubt you can address the remaining few issues that caused me to quit.</p><p>As to the proposed changes, I like them especially the possession change.  It looks VERY promising and I cant thank you guys enough.  This may sound sad but that literally made my day!!  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Jeepned2]

<p><b>I will wait for the update to come out before I go dancing in the streets. However, looking at </b><b>Aeralik's post, well, I would be willing to call this the biggest fix in EQ2 history.  So I wait with my breath held hoping this all turns out as good as it sounds.  And should it be as good, I will have to probabably eat a lot of stuff that I have posted. But with a little whine and cheese, the words should taste ok. Even if only half the stuff works as well as we had hoped, this still has the posibility if being a lot bigger and better fix then we could have ever hoped for. You do realize we may have to start a Aeralik memorial post, for there will be a ton of people who will want to say thanks. </b> </p>

[Eriol]

I'm hardly an expert in this field, as my coercer is lowbie (high 30s), and while the change to Possession to essentially make a permanent pet seems good, what about us at lower levels?  Charm is... inadequate IMO.  It has lost a lot of the "side uses" that it used to have (exping on ^^^ mobs for instance), and overall isn't that great.  Is there a thought to have your "perma-pet" work down the levels as well?  But then again, losing charm entirely seems... sub-optimal.  I'd rather have that more usable too, like removing the concentration cost (other classes' charm doesn't require concentration, and it's STILL not used, my main being a necro, I do NOT charm, as it's just too much risk for the benefit), and perhaps making it FIXED duration, rather than infinite, but WILL break.  I think this would change charm into more a "crowd control + dps" rather than the "unreliable pet" functionality that it has now.Basically I'm glad for the high-end people that a lot of your concerns are being addressed, and a lot of this WILL help at lower levels too (how the reactive damage is triggered), but having something as useful as a permanent pet at the high levels but NOT at the low seems to be a change that would help the low-levels MORE if we had it.More talk is needed IMO, but I echo the other sentiments: great to see something being done that should help a lot regardless.

[Cawti]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>LU45 will see some significant changes to the coercer class.  You guys appear far behind on dps especially compared to your illusionist counterparts so its time for some changes.  These changes are preliminary and subject to change of course before going to test or while on test.Possession - You guys dislike it and I think I dislike it even more.  So this spell is getting a big change.  Instead of temporarily controlling a creature, it will keep with the possession theme by creating an essence of the creature that is a controllable pet.  It basically turns into an always on pseudo charm pet.  This pet won't be able to zone or anything but you can at least use it in dungeons with groups or raids.  Reactives - These will be more oriented to players triggering them rather than having to rely on the npcs to trigger them.  In addition, Cataclysmic mind will get an upgrade and be similar to the illusionist reactive except that it triggers off damaging spells hitting the mob.Dehate Line - If the target of the spell gets aggro they will trigger a hate position loss instead of damage which should be more in line with the use of the spell.Volatile Magic - This will change for all enchanters.  The spell does not play well since I see many of the enchanters just spamming sprint to stay under 30% power.  That really wasn't the intention of the skill at all.  Instead it will be a reduced amount that applies regardless of your current power amount.Power drains - To compensate some for the reduction to Volatile Magic, both enchanter subclasses will be getting their power drains turned into damage.  In their current state these are more useful for their control effects rather than the actual power drains.  After the changes the spells should be a bit more useful.Mana Ward - This will change to be a powerful ward based on the amount of mana the coercer has remaining.  It won't be as powerful as soul ward but it will be similar and thus a lot more useful.Coercive healing - I haven't decided on exact specifics of this but it will see some changes to bring it more in line with illusionist aa lines.Tashania - This will change to be extremely hard to resist and apply to all magical damage types.  This should make it something you use on pull to help land debuffs with the new raid resists.Feel free to post comments below. I will be reviewing them over time and as you react to them on test.  As always make sure your feedback is constructive since that helps me the most.  Also please keep the discussion coercer/enchanter oriented so that things are easier for me to find without having to read through off topic posts.</blockquote>As to the coercer tree AA's:Coercive Healing:Illy's get 2 hot buffs, and right now we just get coercive healing.  So, this needs to be buffed *lots* for it to be comparable in scope.  Making it be a +base heals buff would be good, adding perhaps a recast reduction would be nice, but would step on the toes of the illy's a bit.  What about making it a smallish percentage but as a *group* buff?  So it would affect all heals and power heals in the entire group by a percentage?  Just one idea.  Consider what Time Compression on a shaman would do for them and work from there.Manaward:  I like the direction you are going here.  One of the other ideas would be to allow some sort of control immunities for the warded party.  Or maybe allow the coercer to cast the ward *while controlled*.This AA tree is pretty lackluster currently though since itemization makes mana regen less worthwhile.  You may want to look at adjusting the effects of various parts of this tree.  Like maybe have an added effect on some of the mana regen spells with AA's rather than simply improving the regen.Tashiana:  This sounds great.  The only suggestion here is to maybe add a temporary +Ordination skill increase or improved percentage chance to land further ordination skills for the coercer while Tashiana is active.  (Like the dagger from SoH.)Thought Snap:  This ability is busted all to pieces right now anyway.  Maybe leaving as is for now is the best option so that I have something obvious to drop to pick up the other stuff.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Aull]

<p>I do not play a coercer but grats to all you guys who do. I hope to see more coercers running around.</p><p>Also big thanks to the devs!!</p>

[Wrapye]

I'm not sure I'm quite understanding the new mechanism for Possession.  Sort of an illusionary double that doesn't take concentration?  From the raid comment, it would be usable on epics?The primary problem with Coercive healing is that most healers don't really see a difference with it on.  It should roughly correspond to 50% heal crit in terms of how much it provides.  Then again, most healers tell me that the crit heal bonus provided by Sta AA line isn't really noticeable either.With the changes to the reactives, other than cataclysmic mind, what really is then distinguishing the coercer reactives from the illusionist ones?I'll have to wait and see what the amount that the new Mana ward provides to see if it is worthwhile.  Most mobs that power drain in RoK seem to take a huge percentage at one time, if not all the power, regardless of how much the character has.  On the other hand, it might make the +% max power from the mythical epic and the fabled robe worth something, with an emphasis on might.  Same for the way the group Mana Flow works on the mythical.  Will +heal items impact this Mana ward, unlike the present version?Damage instead of power drain is interesting.  I'll wait and see just how much damage we are talking about.  Ilucide will have to redesign his mob in Maiden's if power drains are going away in general.  Or not, since no one I know bothers power draining the mob anymore.  How will this change interact with the 6-piece bonus of the Mindbending set?  That bonus is to return as power some of the power drained by the single target stuns for enchanters.I never used Volatile Magic much, spec'ing Agi/Sta because I generally wanted to have high power in the MT group for Channel, and keeping power under 30% just seemed like one more thing to keep an eye on.  Depending on what it turns into, it might be attractive.Tashiana and Link line changes look nice.Some other things to consider:Adding a hate or hate position boost to whatever fighter Thoughtsnap forces the mob to attack.  I generally find myself Thoughtsnapping a mob then needing to hit it with the memwipe to make sure the mob doesn't just snap right back to the previous target after 7 seconds.After using it for six months, puppetmaster needs a tweak.  It isn't in the same league as the other class' special level 80 abilities (though still orders of magnitude better than the original version in beta).

[Ibunubi]

<p>Possession -- Anything new is a step in the right direction. Right now it sounds like I make a copy of my target, and now I have a pet while I'm in the zone and alive.</p><p>Reactives -- Wow, just wow. Sounds like a hostile effect placed on the mob, and people damaging it triggers the reactives. Much like Assassin's Mark... The proposed Cataclysmic Mind change is DEFINITELY an intriguing change.</p><p>Dehate Line -- Definitely want to see the rough draft of the spell.</p><p>VM -- A change that's long been coming, imo. 10-15% increase seems reasonable with the removal of hte power component.</p><p>Power drains -- Nice to see you recognizing what the spells are used for. Some illusionists and coercers are probably wondering if the damage amount will be worth casting with the spells' casting times. And for other spells with power drains, will those turn into extra damage? Spells such as Brainshock and Dissecting Gaze.</p><p>Manaward -- W O W</p><p>Coercive Healing -- Most coercers put it on a shaman if they're in a tank group for raids. Obviously, more warding power, less damage taken. Maybe add some temporary effect proc, maybe immunity to control effects that procs off healing spells, and/or group improved resistability (for debuffing purposes and taunts) that procs off healing spells, and/or ... Hell, add some casting time reduction to that, and limit the buff to priests.</p><p>Tashania -- W O W ... Reaching back to the EQ1 roots of the spell idea <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />.</p><p>Additionally, I'd imagine new set bonuses for our Spectral Coercion set and Mindbending 6-set? I'd say you've got a potential set-bonus for Coercive Healing (with my ideas above) on our VP set.</p>

[Soldancer]

<cite>CawtiDawnflower wrote:</cite><blockquote>Possession is not "charm". It is the coercer level 65 special spell which currently so useless I've only casted it maybe 10 times total in the 2 years I've had it.</blockquote> It's Your own fault that You never found the real potential of this spell (most coercers didn't found it too). Possesison is GREAT as it is now and I'm sad to see that it will be ruined (no I don't tell why Possession is so great because after LU45 it doesn't count anymore). Puppetmaster is the crap, this should be changed, not Possession. @Aeralik You devs brought in a bad bug since Rok ( <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=402771" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=402771</a> ) which You never fixed until now. I gave up the hope that You fix it and learned to live with it. Your planned changes will make the situation worse because the non-mezz breaking manadrain-component of the single stun and the stifle will now become a mezz breaking damage component. I hate such undesireable "dirt-effects". Would be really cool if You simply remove the useless mana drain, let the stun and the stifle a clear stun and a clear stifle without any dot component. All in all: This changes will be good for raids but bad for the soloability of coercers.

[Cawti]

Rereading your comment on Manaward again... When you say it'll be "like" Soulward, I think we all interpreted that to be that it'd be a "real" ward and not simply a power saving ward.  But now I'm thinking maybe you just meant the latter?  If so, it'd definitely need something extra to be worthwhile.  Control immunities (or even a percentage chance to resist outright) would be in line with coercers, IMO.  Without that I can't see spending all the points in an otherwise useless line.Though Illy's get a "real" ward with doppleganger, so a real ward wouldn't be out of line.  Or maybe a power/health combined ward?

[Ibunubi]

<cite>Soldancer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>CawtiDawnflower wrote:</cite><blockquote>Possession is not "charm". It is the coercer level 65 special spell which currently so useless I've only casted it maybe 10 times total in the 2 years I've had it.</blockquote>It's Your own fault that You never found the real potential of this spell (most coercers didn't found it too). Possesison is GREAT as it is now and I'm sad to see that it will be ruined (no I don't tell why Possession is so great because after LU45 it doesn't count anymore). Puppetmaster is the crap, this should be changed, not Possession.@AeralikYou devs brought in a bad bug since Rok ( <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=402771" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=402771</a> ) which You never fixed until now. I gave up the hope that You fix it and learned to live with it. Your planned changes will make the situation worse because the non-mezz breaking manadrain-component of the single stun and the stifle will now become a mezz breaking damage component. I hate such undesireable "dirt-effects". Would be really cool if You simply remove the useless mana drain, let the stun and the stifle a clear stun and a clear stifle without any dot component.All in all: This changes will be good for raids but bad for the soloability of coercers.</blockquote>I've only used Possession to move mobs out of my way in dungeons. And that other part, it's not a bug, it's just characteristic of RoK mobs, probably to make soloing not so yawn-fest.

[Roald]

<p>It will be interesting to see how these actually affect PvP, as I doubt that will be considered when making them.</p><p>For example, the power drains have been removed and are now going to do damage, which will break a mezz prematurely when used, which means near instant death in PvP. Also, its nice to stack reactives on someone in a group, and then move back to CC'ing or burning down the main assist's target. If this change means that I'll have to remain on that person for them to trigger, this will be  detrimental to my role in PvP groups.</p>

[Aeralik]

I can leave Intrepid Focus alone since thats mainly a stun and power drain.  I really meant changing the Silence line for coercers to be damaging anyways.

[Ibunubi]

<cite>Milambers@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It will be interesting to see how these actually affect PvP, as I doubt that will be considered when making them.</p><p>For example, the power drains have been removed and are now going to do damage, which will break a mezz prematurely when used, which means near instant death in PvP. Also, its nice to stack reactives on someone in a group, and then move back to CC'ing or burning down the main assist's target. If this change means that I'll have to remain on that person for them to trigger, this will be  detrimental to my role in PvP groups.</p></blockquote>Coercers will take a small hit in the group and raid scenario. From speculation, Spell Scourge will be spread out in damage instead of focused on the 1 person casting AEs. Hostage will be more for burn purposes. Power drains I can live without, though it is fun power drain people.

[impurea]

<p>Good stuff.</p><p>Some people posted that it would be nice to look at our mellee dps buff and add some crush/pierce/slash to it to help hit higher level mobs. That would go a long way to helping us be more wanted in a raid.</p><p> That was basicly the only suggestion that was not address other than that I think you hit the nail on the head.</p><p>Thanks.</p>

[Ibunubi]

<cite>impurea wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Good stuff.</p><p>Some people posted that it would be nice to look at our mellee dps buff and add some crush/pierce/slash to it to help hit higher level mobs. That would go a long way to helping us be more wanted in a raid.</p><p> That was basicly the only suggestion that was not address other than that I think you hit the nail on the head.</p><p>Thanks.</p></blockquote>Make the DPS buff group-wide maybe.

[Tehom]

<p>I'd prefer that any sort of power drain became damage, since they lack any sort of utility in PvE whatsoever. You guys can have seperate versions of spells for PvP, so keeping them as power drains in PvP would be just dandy if that's what people want.</p><p>Overall these look great, though I'm very wary of the change to VM in the effect that'll have on overall damage on both enchanters; it'd be very disappointing if VM takes enough of a hit that coercers who took the trouble to use it full time would mostly see a wash.</p>

[Flipmode]

<cite>Ibunubi wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>impurea wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Good stuff.</p><p>Some people posted that it would be nice to look at our mellee dps buff and add some crush/pierce/slash to it to help hit higher level mobs. That would go a long way to helping us be more wanted in a raid.</p><p> That was basicly the only suggestion that was not address other than that I think you hit the nail on the head.</p><p>Thanks.</p></blockquote>Make the DPS buff group-wide maybe.</blockquote><p>Whoa. slow down there bud.  Make it group wide on the mythical like the Illy version.  The goal is parity, not to have Illys screaming afterwards.</p>

[Ibunubi]

LOL I should probably slow down. I forgot to add as either a set bonus or on the mythical. Obviously voting mythical. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Wrapye]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can leave Intripd Focus alone since thats mainly a stun and power drain.  I really meant changing the Silence line for coercers to be damaging anyways.</blockquote>I guess fair enough.  What about the power drain components of the two spell lines that already do damage, the lines that presently end with Dissecting Gaze and Brainshock?  Dissecting Gaze does very little damage for a DoT, and the power drain portion is about as useful as the others.  Brainshock I guess you can say is a power tap and ignore the power drain part of it.

[Soldancer]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can leave Intrepid Focus alone since thats mainly a stun and power drain.  I really meant changing the Silence line for coercers to be damaging anyways.</blockquote> Please please don't add dots to stuns or the stifle. This would ruin the coercers ability to do long and interessting tactical fights against strong mobs.

[Rijacki]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can leave Intrepid Focus alone since thats mainly a stun and power drain.  I really meant changing the Silence line for coercers to be damaging anyways.</blockquote> <p>How about the power drain spells of other classes, i.e. bards. Will those be changed as well? I am lovin' the concept of the changes and am looking forward to having them put on to Test. I will definately make a testcopy at that time (want to be sure I have my gear and spell upgrades current). I think I have a baby coercer on Test, too, so I can test them from a lower level as well. If not, I'll just have to testcopy my other two coercer characters from their severs *whistles and looks around innocently* What? doesn't everyone do things in multiples?</p> <p>Now all I need is the announcement of the when and where for Fan Faire to get a serenely happy smile plastered to my face.</p>

[Flipmode]

If power drains are being removed completely, then even our stun should have a damage component to compensate for the loss of the drain, IMO.

[Lleinen]

Id honestly like to see intrepid focus and harrowing silence get damage dots on them.  As long as you time everything right soloing still shouldnt be a problem.

[KillSlow]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can leave Intrepid Focus alone since thats mainly a stun and power drain.  I really meant changing the Silence line for coercers to be damaging anyways.</blockquote><p>PLEASE dont, change it</p><p> wait people take a step back</p><p>ask for what you want not crap you dont, </p><p>IE</p><p>Change this spell remove the power drain and add direct damage, we already have enough dots</p><p>power drains are useless you just said that more or less now your not going to change it because one person doesnt know how to ask for the right thing</p><p>no to dot make them DD</p><p>but please remove power drains, it will save time in the future</p>

[SacDaddy420]

this is all very nice, ty for paying attn to a class i have worked to 80 and seen all the trouble with firsthand myself.side note...how high did you get your coercer to aerilik?  I remember there was something about you guys rolling these other , how should i say, "under-loved" classes..

[Jeger_Wulf]

Woot!!! Grats all my coercer comrades!

[TwistedFaith]

As an illusionist the change to VM has me very worried indeed, yes I am sure it wasnt meant to be used as it currently BUT saying that the very best illusionist are those who do have the skill to work with this skill and not go over 305 power or run out of power. I'll see how it goes, but hopefully the dmg reduction wont be too bad.As for the Coercer changes, all I got to say there is about damm time. I dont think there's an illusionist in the game wgo didnt think coercers needed some serious loving, hope they get the class loving they deserve after waiting all this time.

[JohnDoe0057]

<p>what sort of reduction to vm damage ?</p><p>perhaps down to 24% say..</p>

[Flipmode]

<p>VM will probably be changed to 10-15%.  And really it took no skill to stay that low.  It was more of an annoyance than anything.</p>

[Wrapye]

<cite>SacDaddy420 wrote:</cite><blockquote>this is all very nice, ty for paying attn to a class i have worked to 80 and seen all the trouble with firsthand myself.side note...how high did you get your coercer to aerilik?  I remember there was something about you guys rolling these other , how should i say, "under-loved" classes..</blockquote>Aeralik was not part of that.  Rothgar rolled a coercer.  He's level 17.

[Nor]

<p>Although I am quite giddy with excitement about improvements to the coercer class, I wonder how many will actually affect lower level coercers, and non-raiding coercers (at least until they get the levels)...</p><p>A dps boost is certainly a big help though, having a 300 damage nuke at level 50 (other than master strike) is laughable at best.</p>

[Warr]

Volatile Magic was already nerfed, please don't nerf it again. While I (an illu mind you) don't have every piece of proc gear one should have, I float around the high 2k to low 3k on the parse in raids on a five minute fight, meanwhile our swashy is doing 5k+. Why nerf an already moderate dps class? Or at least give us an option. Add in the effect to VM so that you get the 15% more damage while above 30% and let us keep our already nerfed 25% when below 30%. I would think that would be fair.

[Sonorod]

<cite>KillSlow wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can leave Intrepid Focus alone since thats mainly a stun and power drain.  I really meant changing the Silence line for coercers to be damaging anyways.</blockquote><p>PLEASE dont, change it</p><p> wait people take a step back</p><p>ask for what you want not crap you dont, </p><p>IE</p><p>Change this spell remove the power drain and add direct damage, we already have enough dots</p><p>power drains are useless you just said that more or less now your not going to change it because one person doesnt know how to ask for the right thing</p><p>no to dot make them DD</p><p>but please remove power drains, it will save time in the future</p></blockquote><p>Dots shmots, I think we are at the point where we aren't going to be all that picky.  If somone is going to pay attention to our class after all our outcrying we're going to take what attention we can get.  Could make everyone happy to have a nice DD with a good dot, like Asylum.</p><p> With that said, I would prefer some more direct damage ability, but hey, DPS is DPS.  If you increase the power drain on Interpid Focus and Disecting Gaze for those times when power draining is necessary (only PVP comes to mind) and add a dot/dd to absolute silence I would be tickled pink.</p>

[Grimlux]

Aeralik, I will have your babies now..

[Jeepned2]

<p>Just a point of view, please don't get too negative on any of this stuff until we get to see it. Ok, I realize that yes, this is coming from one of the more "vocal" critics of the state of our class. And yes, I have been a little bit on a critical side about SoE. </p><p>But the fact that Aeralik has, what appears to be, spent a lot of time and effort to fix/address a whole lot of our complaints is HUGE!!!!. Let's give him and SoE the benefit of the doubt until we actually see the results. Some are not going to like the changes, some are going to love them. But until we see what the changes truely are, let us as a community bask in the pleasure of knowing that we are getting attention paid to our plight.  BTW is bask the right word?  Anyway, the amount of changes are truely amazing. Let's stay positive and enjoy this. My goodness, who knows, a fix to our EPIC might be next!!! Oh and for those who missed it, thoughtstones are going away, that is in a separate post by Aeralik somewhere around here.</p><p>So mark this day on your calendar, cause it has the potential of being one of the best days in the Coercer class history.</p>

[Aeralik]

I made the stun lines work for mezzing and dps.  Basically when the stun wears off it will nuke the mob if its not currently mezzed.  This way you don't have to adjust your tactics but if you are in dps mode you still get the added dps of the nuke.

[Ibunubi]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I made the stun lines work for mezzing and dps.  Basically when the stun wears off it will nuke the mob if its not currently mezzed.  This way you don't have to adjust your tactics but if you are in dps mode you still get the added dps of the nuke.</blockquote>Now this was something I didn't expect. Awesome.

[Aule]

<p>I like everything I see here.  The Tash change in particular is something I've been asking for something like over a year.</p><p>Harmonious link firing a position dehate upon gaining aggro may be tricky in the actual trigger method.  It wouldn't do to have the person instantly lose aggro thus making that person impossible to have aggro focused.  Though that would be uber it'd probably be a little overpowered.</p><p>About the only things I'm not seeing addressed here that have been asked for are Epic adjustments and Puppetmaster.</p><p>Puppetmaster currently, in an absolutely idealized situation that almost never occurs, does about the same damage that a high shock wave crit does.  The normal effect is about 1-2k tops which doesn't justify the time spent casting the spell.</p><p>Overall though very much appreciated, thanks Aeralik.</p>

[Rijacki]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I made the stun lines work for mezzing and dps.  Basically when the stun wears off it will nuke the mob if its not currently mezzed.  This way you don't have to adjust your tactics but if you are in dps mode you still get the added dps of the nuke.</blockquote>Yay!  Nice idea <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Powerman100]

<p>From all that I've read, I'm looking foward to the update as it looks very promising.  Its also nice that after feeling neglected for so long by the Devs, not only does Aeralik post a heads up on the update, but has been paying attn to our responses.  Took an uber long time to get here, but thanks for the attention to Coercers.</p><p>Drazsat</p><p>Blackburrow</p>

[XFnarX]

If most of that stuff goes through I will seriously wet myself with joy dribbles. =pThank you for being vocal and finally bringing us up to speed. =D

[Yarginis]

Can you share perhaps what % you are looking at reducing VM to? A number like 15% or so would be fine in exchange for the power requirement removed. (Ilus here btw, Coercer friend was practically jumping up and down when he saw this so plz don't disapoint him<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)

[Tomalof]

<p>A few notes here.</p><p>With changing VM and changing the power drains to damage for all enchanters to replace some of the damage, I don't see this as an improvement by itself. This is expecially not an improvement in trying to achieve parity between the two chanter's dps. It is a possible nerf to coercers and a deffinate one to illusionists. As a coercer I'd like the ability to do more damage while still properly supporting the MT group with power to use in channeling and such, but if you're talking about cutting that percentage in half, then it'll be an improvement to very few while a nerf to those who are working hard to balance both support and damage from staying under 30% already.</p><p> It is true that the power drain has very little meaning in PvE, and I'm happy to get rid of that but there are valid concerns for people who prefer for it not to be a dot. It changes greatly our ability to to the slow burns on stronger mobs while soloing if the stun (focus line) has DoT. The DD would be nice. Again this will not help to achive pariy between the enchanter classes. This is to be done to both.</p><p> Changes to Cohesive healing and the deagro once again do not effect the DPS. they may well be needed to improve the class desirability, but dont address the primary stated reason for this revamp. The deagro abilities would be more useful if they don't effect fighters. Often if they're cast through the mob when it shifts agro, they end up landing on the tank as he steals it back, then deagroing the tank and making the situation worse from our "aid"</p><p>   This brings us to the changes in reactives. If this is where we're looking at achieving parity, then it's dangerous. It's already where we get the majority of our damage, if these end up making sudden spikes then we could amplify the issues we sometimes get with ae casts or casts that take large amount of power spiking agro to us. It's possible that these could be upgraded successfully, but some careful testing would be recomended and the amount they would need to be upgraded to bring us up to Illusionist dps levels would need to be considerable.</p>

[Mordion89]

<p>Thank you so much Aeralik, you don't know how much this means to the coercer class, we've been waiting for years and thank god our issues can be resolved now.</p><p>For Coercive Healing, it has to be buffed to be able to compare to Illusionary Arms and Time Compression, or else coercers will still be lacking in the buffing department, which defeats the point of an enchanter</p><p>Also, please please don't forget </p><p><span style="font-size: small;">PUPPETMASTER! our lvl 80 "class defining" spell</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">at it's current state, it is essentially a useless/fluff spell that can't even be seen as the pets are just too small</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">PLEASE make it something more than a dps spell, coercers need something unique which can retain our spot in the raiding scene</span></p>

[Tasnus]

Well dang.  Only took 45 LU's, but better late than never I suppose. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Quick thoughts:VM - I think everyone who's had to sprint for the last 2 years will love you forever for that change, literally.Power drains into damage - nice.  The Silence line has been wholly worthless on raids ever since it was broken pre-DoF and the stifle landed for the duration on epics.Reactives - anything to make Auspex and Cataclysmic Mind useful would be super.Tash - I never understood why this spell wasn't a mirror of the EQ1 version from the start.  For an end-line AA it was very underpowered, this was a long overdue change.Overall, looks very positive.  Just don't screw the Illu's and make THEM have to betray en masse. ;pKudos!

[Flipmode]

<p>A few things to note:</p><p>1. Puppetmaster is not our class defining spell.</p><p>2. Coercer were not just behind in DPS but utility also.  So fixing buffs like tashiana, coercive healing, and manaward are a must in addition to the DPS.</p><p> Overall Aeralik has some solid ideas on the table.  For you PvP folks, it is possible to leave the drains in.  The bottom line is we needed this from raid perspective.</p><p> I am interested in seeing how Aeralik will balance our new reactives vs the illusionist prismatic line.  last thing i want is an upgrade to the class that blows us out of proportion and then spend the next several LUs being nerfed.</p>

[Econometr]

<cite>Wrapye wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not sure I'm quite understanding the new mechanism for Possession.  Sort of an illusionary double that doesn't take concentration?  From the raid comment, it would be usable on epics?The primary problem with Coercive healing is that most healers don't really see a difference with it on.  It should roughly correspond to 50% heal crit in terms of how much it provides.  Then again, most healers tell me that the crit heal bonus provided by Sta AA line isn't really noticeable either.With the changes to the reactives, other than cataclysmic mind, what really is then distinguishing the coercer reactives from the illusionist ones?I'll have to wait and see what the amount that the new Mana ward provides to see if it is worthwhile.  Most mobs that power drain in RoK seem to take a huge percentage at one time, if not all the power, regardless of how much the character has.  On the other hand, it might make the +% max power from the mythical epic and the fabled robe worth something, with an emphasis on might.  Same for the way the group Mana Flow works on the mythical.  Will +heal items impact this Mana ward, unlike the present version?Damage instead of power drain is interesting.  I'll wait and see just how much damage we are talking about.  Ilucide will have to redesign his mob in Maiden's if power drains are going away in general.  Or not, since no one I know bothers power draining the mob anymore.  How will this change interact with the 6-piece bonus of the Mindbending set?  That bonus is to return as power some of the power drained by the single target stuns for enchanters.I never used Volatile Magic much, spec'ing Agi/Sta because I generally wanted to have high power in the MT group for Channel, and keeping power under 30% just seemed like one more thing to keep an eye on.  Depending on what it turns into, it might be attractive.Tashiana and Link line changes look nice.Some other things to consider:Adding a hate or hate position boost to whatever fighter Thoughtsnap forces the mob to attack.  I generally find myself Thoughtsnapping a mob then needing to hit it with the memwipe to make sure the mob doesn't just snap right back to the previous target after 7 seconds.After using it for six months, puppetmaster needs a tweak.  It isn't in the same league as the other class' special level 80 abilities (though still orders of magnitude better than the original version in beta).</blockquote>Like everyone else, I am very happy to see some positive changes being made to the coercer.  I have only limited experience playing the class, though I agree that it lags behind the illusionist with respect to utility.  I have a little more experience playing illusionists and am somewhat concerned about the proposed changes to possession.  One person, quoted above, referred to the altered version possession as an ability that would not take concentration slots.  Another person referred to the altered version of possession as producing a "permanent pet."  I believe that possession is supposed to be on par with the illusionist's 65th level spell, phase.  Phase frequently ports the target on top of the caster or to another inconvenient location.  If possession were to produce a permanent, caster-selected pet, then it would be vastly better than the existing version of phase.   The difference between the two spells would be even greater if the altered possession did not require concentration slots.  Also, I do not like the idea of giving illusions to coercers.  I am not the first person to voice concerns about the homogenization of classes in EQ2.  Coercers are interesting because they have the ability to charm pets that are more powerful than other classes' pets.  However, this comes at the expense of reliability.  To compensate for this, coercers are provided with increased healing and power regeneration while the pet is charmed (presumably to allow the coercer to deal with the pet once the charm breaks).  If charm reliability is the issue, then it stands to reason that the probability of the charm breaking or the frequency with which such checks are made should be reduced.  Giving the coercer an ability that belongs to the illusionist is not the answer.  The problem would be made dramatically worse if possession were to require no concentration slots.   Many of my concerns could be addressed by keeping the duration of possession fairly low.  However, I believe the devs should investigate alternate ways to fix possession and the other charm-related spells and leave illusions to the illusionist class. One more thought.  Aeralik suggested a number of changes that would involve the substitution of DPS for power drains.  I agree that power drains are not terribly useful.  However, I would prefer to see a more creative solution than simply substituting a low-level DD or DOT component for a power drain.  EQ2 is already too DPS oriented.  I doubt many of us who play enchanters would complain if the devs gave the coercer and illusionist some significant firepower in place of power drains.  However, making every class a DPS class is just another form of homogenization, which ultimately ruins what makes EQ2 special.  At the same time, I do not feel the devs should nerf the existing DPS capabilities of the two classes, including volatile magic.  I am playing two coercers at the moment and feel that the class has great potential.  However, I would be unhappy to see coercers and illusionists be made more similar than they currently are.  The spell capabilities of the two classes already overlap to a substantial degree.

[Pitt Hammerfi]

<p>Grats to the Coercers,</p><p>Are these changes based on the amount of people that voted in the "What class should we play on test" ?</p><p>If so, hopefully the SK's get some love next, because we had the second highest votes, Sk's are looking on with interest wondering how a class gets such sweeping changes.</p><p>Sorry for the derail, back to celebrating, while we envy you.</p>

[Barx]

Could you elaborate a bit on what you have planned for Coercive Healing? ((I'm a healer, and that's a relatively important buff I like to have on me teehee)).Ohh, and can you take a look at Wardens next? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ((I still want self invis! And more dps =/ teehee)).

[tralalak44]

<p>great ideas aeralik, ty</p><p>suggestion for coercive healing+15% to all heals/wards+20% casting speed of benefical spells</p><p>or</p><p>+15% to all heals/wards+10% cast and reuse speed of benefical spells</p><p>or </p><p>make this speel groupwide</p><p>make it special, like TC or IA that illys has, something what every single healer asking for</p>

[cxp1]

<p><b>I think the changes are great.   The propose changes are about 90% of what I'm looking for.</b></p><p> Possession - You guys dislike it and I think I dislike it even more.  So this spell is getting a big change.  Instead of temporarily controlling a creature, it will keep with the possession theme by creating an essence of the creature that is a controllable pet.  It basically turns into an always on pseudo charm pet.  This pet won't be able to zone or anything but you can at least use it in dungeons with groups or raids. <span style="color: #ffcc00;">Awesome.  Will this take concentration slots?  We would all prefer it doesnt obviously.  You could make it so charm and possesion can't be up at the same time or change the mythical so you don't need the slots.  Also, please make sure the range is long like 50m.  If we want to use it on epics we need a long range to make it useable.</span>Reactives - These will be more oriented to players triggering them rather than having to rely on the npcs to trigger them.  In addition, Cataclysmic mind will get an upgrade and be similar to the illusionist reactive except that it triggers off damaging spells hitting the mob.  <span style="color: #ffcc00;">Excellent.</span>Dehate Line - If the target of the spell gets aggro they will trigger a hate position loss instead of damage which should be more in line with the use of the spell. <span style="color: #ffcc00;">Good.</span>Volatile Magic - This will change for all enchanters.  The spell does not play well since I see many of the enchanters just spamming sprint to stay under 30% power.  That really wasn't the intention of the skill at all.  Instead it will be a reduced amount that applies regardless of your current power amount.  <span style="color: #ffcc00;">Good. No Complaints.</span>Power drains - To compensate some for the reduction to Volatile Magic, both enchanter subclasses will be getting their power drains turned into damage.  In their current state these are more useful for their control effects rather than the actual power drains.  After the changes the spells should be a bit more useful.  <span style="color: #ffcc00;">Good.  Please leave us one power drain with damage.</span>Mana Ward - This will change to be a powerful ward based on the amount of mana the coercer has remaining.  It won't be as powerful as soul ward but it will be similar and thus a lot more useful. <span style="color: #ffcc00;"> Does this apply to health or power.  Either way a great improvement.</span>Coercive healing - I haven't decided on exact specifics of this but it will see some changes to bring it more in line with illusionist aa lines.  <span style="color: #ffcc00;">It could be a little more powerful and usefull to clerics.  The ch on a ward is far more useful than HoT and reactives.</span>Tashania - This will change to be extremely hard to resist and apply to all magical damage types.  This should make it something you use on pull to help land debuffs with the new raid resists.  <span style="color: #ffcc00;">Yay!  Please test in VP on 86-88 mobs.  This is very much needed.</span>Feel free to post comments below. I will be reviewing them over time and as you react to them on test.  As always make sure your feedback is constructive since that helps me the most.  Also please keep the discussion coercer/enchanter oriented so that things are easier for me to find without having to read through off topic posts</p>

[pcwpcw]

<span style="font-size: xx-large;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">OM{} FG</span></span> WE LOVE YOU <span style="color: #0066ff;"><span style="font-size: xx-large;">Aeralik u ROCK</span></span><span style="color: #0066ff;"></span><span style="color: #ff33cc;"><span style="font-size: x-small;">All the mentioned changes are Freaking awesome. Plus the DPS proc at the end of stuns is god da{}mn nice. Thank you so much for all these. I betrayed to illusionist last month, but i just betrayed back to coercer already hah.</span><span style="font-size: medium;">Not going to be greedy be just want to point outthat there are another 2 things that u might want to lookat. 1. Puppetmaster(M1) - yea its close to useless, in facti lose overall DPS by casting it.2. Mythical - a. The damage proc on taunts need to be increased more, after some calculations from ACTits doing only approx +80DPS for the raid MT. Thatis almost negligible considering the MT is about 3-3.5kDPSb. As everyone knows MANA is no longer an issue in ROK, if u are in a Raid MT grp u know that its close to impossible to get below 90% power even if u spam skills non stop. Yes impossible i mean it. So all these power regen stuff on our myth is totally USELESS at this point. I dunno unless u are going to make the new Manaward really nice and needing alotof power, otherwise yea pls look into this, we  are already like 1 million % mana buffed.Thxs i enlarged the post so u could read this better. It the most important thing to consider at this time</span></span><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #000000;"></span></span><span style="font-size: x-small;"><span style="color: #000000;"></span></span><span style="color: #0066ff;"><span style="font-size: xx-large;"></span></span>

[Darkflame2]

<p>Just my option and looking at it form mostly a raiding point of view.</p><p>Possession - Coercers cann't really spare any con slots as it is now on raids. So if this possessed pet requires any cons slots it will never be able to be used (Would need an effect also on epic like illusionist epic now). If the pet is basically a standardized pet each time we cast it with just the altered smaller look of the (Epic type) mob we use but cann't zone with you I think it will work out very well, BUT it really would have to be a caster based mob. Pets eatting MT wards would cause it to be banned from raids fast. Basically a pet like the illusionists pet but looks like a smaller version of an encounter mob. Also should not be able to have this and a charmed mob out every that would just not work. Also I hope Charm is staying ingame this being just a more viable raiding type charm.</p><p>Reactives - To be proc'ed more like that of an illusionists would work very well and is needed</p><p>Dehate Line - 2 set bonus still needs to be altered the melee proc is silly. Targeting causes a proc of a drop on the hate list is kinda cool, could be powerful but if they have NO Chance of ever gettin argo that will just cause problems</p><p>Volatile Magic - Changed to a straight base damage increase passive spell is cool and simple. Power req. removed makes a coercer more able to play what I think the coercer is about when using his tools like Manaflow and Channeling.</p><p>Power Drains - Adding the damage is cool. Best case would be a straight mental DD spell at the Front of the spell. Since reuse of stun dont overlap that shouldnt be to powerful and still keep them relaiable for CC. Dot cause CC issues. Termination damage is much like reactive damage ..its less relaible and less desireable. May effect PvP guys but easy fix keep a drain attached to some spell or even all of them or add a spell line of a power drain if it is that critical for them .</p><p>ManaWard - To become what you said is great upgrade to what it is. Becoming more like the enchanters we were in EQ1. Also gives us more purpose for +max power and MT utility.</p><p>Coercive Healing - Be nice to see it more on par with IA and TC.</p><p>Tashania - Sounds good. resist rate atm is killing its purpose.</p><p>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________</p><p>Puppetmaster - needs to eb changed from fluff to a more class defining spell</p><p>Enraging Demeanor - This line shouldn't stop in T6 at level 52. You are adding all of this new effect for it or us like with epic/SoH robe, just add them into the spell for later tiers so the spell line can live on. I have a master but its got to be next to impossible for a newer Coercer to ever get at this point. We really should get it in T7 and T8. </p><p>Impetus - Like Enraging Demenor it just dies off in T7. When the grey buffs are your most important it's just not right. You have done an increase to the Illusionists haste buff so the spell lines cannt be to over powering to still have room for improvements. But If you really want to keep the cap leveled off give us a T8 that is kinda on the lines of what their epic did but let the spell lines continue. Even if the T8 was just Group buff for 1 slot or the addition of crit or DA things.</p><p>Anesthesia - The mem wipe spells resist rate may need to be upped. Gets resists so much </p><p>Mind Bend - 0 effect on raids (100% useless on raids)</p><p>Dispell Magic - maybe this has a use outside of the PvP realm but i never found it.</p><p>Fluffy Spells - LOL we have the worst ones as it can only be cast on lowbies in group., thats pretty much 4 days each time an expasion comes out with a level increase that I can use them other then Rat and Troll forms. A Couple more illusions of evil classes would be more fitting ( I know we arent illusionist but we have 2 to like their 10? or so) . Be a cool idea to start / reinstate Fluff spells (51-80) other then having to buy LoN cards. I mean you are doing tons of fluff just have to buy it and its not really class defining.</p><p>Thoughtstones - Awesome that they are going away. I know Linyen most be loving this little gem.</p><p>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________</p><p>Epic - Stats are fine really other then +8 Focus needs to be +8 Subj. (10 reuse 8 crit 5 power are fine imo)</p><p>         Siren's Flow - Group Mana Flow is fine with the VM change (Don't see a need for change)</p><p>         Siren's Gift - Procs a group less power thing needs to go. Replace it. Worst case with Group Impetus Upgrade to stay in tuned with illusionists if you are still going to let the spell line die off in later tiers.</p><p>         Siren's Stare - Adds proc to fighter taunts - (add that to T7 - T8 enraging demeanor spell line and replace it with something more in line with the illusionists epics for Possession to work on raids for us like the illusionists.</p><p>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________</p><p>VP Set gear bonuses - </p><p>    2 Set - Really bad - and with the changes to Peaceful Link it really needs a change</p><p>    4 Set - underpowered / not enough bang for the buck really. (+125 damage for tandem to 25% more gorging thought) Night and Day here</p><p>    6 Set - Good</p><p>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________</p>

[Ran]

<p>first thing... THX AERLIK!</p><p>overall.... Illu makes more dps and has more utility.</p><p>Now these changes should give in a first view utility back, i want to support my raid. </p><p>Coercive Healing</p><p>Tashiani</p><p>Manaward</p><p>perhaps Stunupgrade? (coercer is stunning class, illu mezzing class)</p><p>In a second view, the changes to our reactives should give us more dps.</p><p>with the mythical and all those powerprocs etc. it is a need to change VM. Perhaps you can change it to "if power is 70% and above, 25% more dmg"? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I don't see what a coercer should get for his solo ability's. Coercer is a well class for soloplaying.</p>

[pcwpcw]

Yea Shadowling GOODJOB! U summed it up all.Aeralik pls look at his post!

[Klaktar]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Words.</blockquote>Your alt must be a coercer, eh? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />(No offense to coercers but why does every class have to be a DPS class? Maybe I'm just bitter because Aeralik seems to enjoy [I cannot control my vocabulary] non-assassin scouts in the [I cannot control my vocabulary]...congrats Coercers on getting a huge boost! I'll get out of your forum now <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />)

[Depheni]

words fail me ...Even if less than half of these changes take effect... it is now clear that you did take the time to understand the concerns of the coercer community.Thanks alot it is indeed great news.

[Prestissimo]

This is great news to hear, especially since i can now dust off my coercer and not feel totally gimped diagonally in raids and group instances when playing it.  On one note though, I don't really like the idea of throwing out and starting over on the charm since it would basically make an evil illusionist.  Although it would balance the class out better for raiders, the coercer is typically a solo oriented class.  That having been said, a better solution (in my honest opinion) would be to do something similar to the warden tree aa for their damage spells, or the raid armament aa alternative for palis.  Wether it be a second version of the spell thats nerfed down and summons a cookie cutter pet, or wether it be selectable is not really of any significance to me par say, but losing what makes the coercer a coercer honestly would make them just stop being coercers and thus kill the individualism of the class.  The reason I say this is because the charm is incredibly valuable for soloing, and as we all know, RoK is almost all solo.  If you make the coercer play just like the illusionist, it takes away all purpose for even calling them different things and you might as well just merge them into one.While on this same note, as previously said some posts back, the game is becoming so dps oriented that it's ruining the entire point to classes such as the paladin, the warden, mystic, and not to mention 3/4 of the strategy behind the game is now just point and nuke.  There aren't a whole lot of gear choices that play off of the support classes, especially the enchanters and their power draining, mezzing, or crowd control.  Mostly all the gear is oriented towards dps or more dps.  Or if you guys don't want to add more effects, maybe add more mobs that have specific weaknesses to a classes support spells/control abilities to make it more encouraged to invite all classes rather than just those dubbed "good" for raiding.  The crab raid from FD adventure pack was a great example of a well designed small quick little raid since everyone had to control their damage while controlling the mob and spamming debuffs rather than just power nuking the tar out of the mob like most other raids are.  Theres of course other mobs that function like the crab, but there isn't that much out there.  I'd love to see a puzzle raid zone or a raid zone that gives different named (similar to the puzzle box in bonemire) that is based on various influencing factors.  To name a few possibilities: time length of the fight on the previous mob, time of the day, wether it be mage, fighter, scout, or healer that kills the named mob prior, random location spawning rare mobs possibly of equivalent difficulty to the surrounding mobs (that have some sweet loot scaled to the con), etc.  Something to throw some spice and variety and change into the game so that the content doesn't go stale so fast.  It might even create an incentive to spread raiding times out and eventually encourage pick up raids on a larger scale since no one can be on 24/7 for all forms of every raid, every spawn, every time.Sorry for the long post and off topicness at places, but I'm hoping that some of this will strike a "good idea" note on someone.  Thanks for buffing the coercers up <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Nazgul]

<cite>Warren@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Volatile Magic was already nerfed, please don't nerf it again. While I (an illu mind you) don't have every piece of proc gear one should have, I float around the high 2k to low 3k on the parse in raids on a five minute fight, meanwhile our swashy is doing 5k+. Why nerf an already moderate dps class? Or at least give us an option. Add in the effect to VM so that you get the 15% more damage while above 30% and let us keep our already nerfed 25% when below 30%. I would think that would be fair.</blockquote>No, VM is a pita.  Illy is already a challenging class to play, without this constant power management.  I love this potential change, as long as it is implemented properly, and the update to the MD's compensates the VM nerf.Last but not least, grats to all Coercers <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Depheni]

<cite>ReverendPaqo wrote:</cite><blockquote>On one note though, I don't really like the idea of throwing out and starting over on the charm since it would basically make an evil illusionist.  </blockquote>Was that actually mentioned somewhere ? removing charm ? - I hope not as its one of the defining aspects of the class, - while not useful at raids - and at best marginally useful in groups - it is still the one thing that all coercers I know love doing. I didnt see this mentioned though so i think you must have misunderstood. (i hope)Cheers

[Yorke]

<p>These changes sound extremely positive.</p><p>I'm intrigued by the suggested change to Possession. Will this mean that we will in effect, be able to have 2 mobs charmed at the same time? If so, will both be fully controllable in terms of attack, back off, follow commands etc?</p><p>Also, excuse my ignorance but I have no idea what Soul Ward is and so comparing the change to Mana Ward to it is meaningless to me. Could someone please clarify what this means?</p><p>From my experience the things that are most desirable to healers are : Heal Amount, Heal Crits and Cast Time, so perhaps including these bonuses with Coercive Healing would help to make its appeal along the same lines as that of Illusory Arm.</p><p>Everything else sounds spot on ... thankyou!</p>

[TonlinT]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>LU45 will see some significant changes to the coercer class.  </blockquote><p>Dear Aeralik.</p><p> Thank you, thank you very, very much.</p><p>You are my favourite person right now.</p><p>Kindest regards.</p>

[Necodem]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Volatile Magic - This will change for all enchanters.  The spell does not play well since I see many of the enchanters just spamming sprint to stay under 30% power.  That really wasn't the intention of the skill at all.  Instead it will be a reduced amount that applies regardless of your current power amount.</blockquote>Then you need to revamp coercer's VP armor, pvp one and epic weapon, that give +% power, because it's totaly useless after this change, wasn't really so great but now totaly useless.

[Grimlux]

<cite>Yorke wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>These changes sound extremely positive.</p><p>I'm intrigued by the suggested change to Possession. Will this mean that we will in effect, be able to have 2 mobs charmed at the same time? If so, will both be fully controllable in terms of attack, back off, follow commands etc?</p><p>Also, excuse my ignorance but I have no idea what Soul Ward is and so comparing the change to Mana Ward to it is meaningless to me. Could someone please clarify what this means?</p><p>From my experience the things that are most desirable to healers are : Heal Amount, Heal Crits and Cast Time, so perhaps including these bonuses with Coercive Healing would help to make its appeal along the same lines as that of Illusory Arm.</p><p>Everything else sounds spot on ... thankyou!</p></blockquote>I think he mentioned that there will be a concentration charge. I cant imagine us being able to have a "Personae" so to speak and a charmed mob at the same time. Throw puppetmaster in and were pretty much Conjurors now <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Turb]

<p>Nice, I stopped playing my coercer 2-3 months ago after persistent class nerfs.   These are just the sort of changes to rekindle some interest in him.</p><p>I support the comments to avoid making new damage components break any control effects; this is important while soloing.    We have far too few DDs and too many DoTs.   Consider changing some DoTs to DD, and beefing our DDs a little when removing power drains.</p><p>Cataclysmic Mind needs changing, because raid mobs hardly ever seem to actually use power and thus get damaged.</p><p>I may also be one of the few people who found Possession useful once in a while.    </p><p>Puppetmaster could really do with complete replacement; it's just a token 'filler' spell because I suspect whoever did the L80 coercer special spell couldn't think of anything better after the original (even worse!) Puppetmaster was changed.     There's lots of options here that fit the coercer theme, e.g. an aggression buff, or immuntiy to control effects (maybe like Close Mind on bruiser), or a spell to feed lots of power quickly to someone who has been revived recently.</p><p>Anyways, great to hear coercers are getting some nice loving.    </p>

[Mordion89]

<p>There are a few other spells' effect that could use some tweaking</p><p>1. <span style="font-size: small;"><span style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><span style="color: #cc3300;"><b>Puppetmaster</b></span></span></span> - as mentioned earlier</p><p>2. <span style="font-size: small;color: #cc3300;font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b>Mindbend</b></span> - Our lvl 52 ancient teachings, it could use some tweaking as the spell currently is 99.99% useless on raiding</p><p>3. <span style="font-size: small;color: #cc3300;font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b>Asylum</b></span> - The damage on spell termination could be tweaked to something more useful as the spell often gets refreshed before the duration is over</p><p>4. <span style="font-size: small;color: #cc3300;font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b>Encounter Mez</b></span> - The long issue of having encounter mez blocking itself is still there, the ability to refresh encounter mez would come in handy</p><p>5. <span style="font-size: small;color: #cc3300;font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b>Cannibalize Thoughts</b></span> - The area effect of the power regen portion is quite small, causing the coercer to not able to apply the power regen on tank if they were to stand apart, and the INT debuff on the spell is pretty much useless in both pvp and pve as it the effect is really insignificant, it could use some tweaking</p><p>Once again thanks Aeralik for finally giving some attention to the coercer community</p>

[KamidariTuibumbi]

Hopefully the fact that I bought Possession M1 way back when for like 1pp even though I never used it will now pay off. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Kalyai]

<p>Please dont remove power drains completely...yes take some of them and turn them to damage but please please let us have our power drains...even if it means changing the spells for pvp ...</p><p>power drains are a big big part of a solo coercer's pvp tactic...draining our opponent's power is sometimes the only way we can win a fight!</p><p>Please let us keep our power drains... </p>

[Roald]

<p><span style="font-size: small;"><u>Reactives</u></span><span style="font-size: x-small;">Please, with whatever fix you are trying to do, leave the initial system in place as well as the old one. If we are now able to proc them ourselves, great, but it should STILL proc of their actions too, like the old system. If it changes to the proposed system, it will make Coercers less useful in PvP, something I'm sure isn't the aim of the buffs.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">Other suggestions:</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">Asylum: The end part of this spell is rarely ever used, due to +spell damage and the recast time versus duration. Either make the ticks go faster, or have the end effect happen earlier.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">Mindbend: For a 52 ancient teaching, its pretty useless. Maybe make it affect the whole encounter (I'd love that for PvP), or, and in keeping with 'lore' behind the Coercer class, make the target 'confused' meaning that the next spell it casts it applied to itself or an allay.</span></p><p><span style="font-size: x-small;">Resists: I really struggle with resists in PvP combat, even with the wis line for subj, and various subj/disruption gear. Maybe shomething could be adjusted so that we don't have to cast our spells numerous times for them to land. This is, however, a problem for all caster classes in PvP, so I guess that's another problem altogether, and won't be adressed in conjunction with these changes.</span></p>

[KillSlow]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I made the stun lines work for mezzing and dps.  Basically when the stun wears off it will nuke the mob if its not currently mezzed.  This way you don't have to adjust your tactics but if you are in dps mode you still get the added dps of the nuke.</blockquote><p>you sir are now my favorite dev, and that is saying a lot. I love the changes that have been made to crafted materials, it gives a reason to craft. but now coercers will be fixed, its just so much</p><p>one thing, you dont want the damage at the back end you want it at the front end. I cant think of a single chanter that doesnt have proc gear, at least one piece. if you cast your stun odds are you are going to proc and break that mez, so put the damage on the front end, that why its doesnt screw up the re mez and stop you from getting in the extra damage</p><p>next quoestiion, if the epic is immune to stun will this still trigger damage? I think if you put on the front end it would easy to do, did the spell land? yes do damage, then it checks for immunity but who knows how you guys do that</p><p>just some thoughts</p>

[Dreadpatch]

Sweet, now I might finally take the time to level my coercer from 70 to 80. Been holding out for some changes : D

[Xethren]

About dang time Coercers got some love (instead of nerf bat after nerf bat). Those ideas looks great Aeralik, thanks!! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Ranja]

<cite>Xethren@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>About dang time Coercers got some love (instead of nerf bat after nerf bat). Those ideas looks great Aeralik, thanks!! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>I am so happy that you guys are finally getting fixed. Just dont get your hopes up too much. Because if Aerlick "fixes" you like he "fixed" rangers you are better off not being touched<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Darkc]

Back when EQ2 originally came out, they promised no PvP due balance issues.  Due to demend they added PvP with the consequence that classes like Coecers / Rangers would be crippled in PvE due to "OMG don't fix the class cause of PvP".  PvP can kiss my a$$ imo...

[Aurumn]

<cite>Ranja wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>...</cite>Because if Aerlick "fixes" you like he "fixed" rangers you are better off not being touched<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>/bonk Ranja</p><p>No jinxies you! <i>*pulls out lucky rabbit's foot, four leaf clover, etc*</i> No derailing the devs now that we got 'em. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> We're makin' history here.</p><p>On a more constructive note, I'm liking the idea to make the damage attached to the control spells up front. I'd rather not tick off a mob just as it breaks mezz so it leaps at me to rip my face off. Better to smack it, stun/mezz/whatever it, and let the tank taunt as usual so agro stays where it needs to once control breaks. It needn't be much of a hit I would think. Heck, even an up front debuff attached would be nice to make it land better... 'course that might get the other clothies a bit jealous. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>As for the possession change, I'd need to see more info on that. It would seem unfair to be able to run with a charm pet AND a possessed one at the same time. Also it would be nice to make sure we don't end up with basically a "personae" in addition to our charm ability. I wouldn't want to (effectively) replace charm as it is, so there would have to be some sort of watering down of the mob to make it desirable for grouping when the risk of charm isn't worth it, but allow charm to be the better choice for soloing. Basically useful, but not OP.</p>

[KamidariTuibumbi]

<cite>Darkc wrote:</cite><blockquote>Back when EQ2 originally came out, they promised no PvP due balance issues.  Due to demend they added PvP with the consequence that classes like Coecers / Rangers would be crippled in PvE due to "OMG don't fix the class cause of PvP".  PvP can kiss my [I cannot control my vocabulary] imo...</blockquote>I don't think we need to go that far, but I do hope that the devs consider maybe changing the spells to dmg in pve, but leaving mana drains and reactives in PvP, or whatever it is that pvp like about the way things are now.  (I don't PvP, so I don't know.)  I think the changes sound great for pve, and I don't want them changed back to appease PvPers.  If they can tweak the spells so they're just different between the two environments though, then great.It could be too that PvPers need to try the changes to see how they play out, and maybe it'll be different, but better.  IE: Burn them down with more dps, rather than wear them out with no mana.

[pebyr]

let me say that my jaw just dropped in amazement when I read the proposed changes.  Yay for no more dodging the mystic game!!I am curious to find out exactly what manaward is going to do.  For instance, is it going to be a health or mana ward?  Obviously it makes sense that it be a ward against mana drains, which after experiencing the maestro fight, I'd welcome any tools i can get.Other than questions about some of the other things that people have mentioned, such what's going to happen to vm, not that I care, just curious.  No more spamming sprint, yay!  Also what is going to be the final state of being for coercive healing.Couple of things that I would really really appreciate.  Please please please extend the range on enraging demeanor and impetus.  Right now, if i die, I have to run into the potential area of effect of whatever ae the mob has, just to rebuff.  Usually at a time, when I may still be suffering rez sickness.  Heck, I'm squishy and I'm running in?  10 meters is way too short.  While you are doing all of this, can you please extend this range?  All of us risking life and limb to rebuff, would thank you yet again.With all these positive changes, I feel weird asking for more, but I have to admit, it would be nice to reexamine puppetmaster.  I got the m1 in raid, but its sad, when I would have never spent money or dkp on it.  I dont even have it on my hotbars, because it was screwing up trying to look at act parses in order to figure out what i needed to concentrate on to improve my dps.Examining enraging demeanor and impetus would be nice also.   Because i've been searching the broker for months now, and have never seen it there, and having such an important spell end in t6, makes it virtually impossible for newer toons to ever get it mastered.  Heck, a nice way to upgrade it, would be to have to t8 version, in addition to the percentages have a chance to proc a hate position increase.  Impetus and rapidity, the illy versions, could be modified also, to provide double attack and/or crit abilities.   With the proposed changes, these are probably the main things we will be asking about in the near future.

[Kneemin]

Not exactly sure how all this is going to go over with pvp but PLEASE for the love of god dont' just throw these in here without getting some coercers from PvP  to look at it... the way the reactives sound now seems like we wont' be able to burst as much in PvP and when I'm fighting in pvp I rely on stacking reactives and having them all proc off my opponents attacks and NOT my own.... I also rely on my power drains quite a bit I would hate to see them just do damage now........All I'm asking is that a good bit of testing be done in PvP as well as PvE for these changes perhaps some of them just not carry over to pvp?

[Alfgand]

<p>OMG !  Cool !</p><p>Thanks for addressing our issues !</p><p>I had stopped reading the Coercer boards for a few days after my last outburst of posts, since it was making me too depressed. lol</p><p>I figured, well I will take a quick look today to see if anything was going on and wow was I surprised!</p><p>I have not taken it all in yet as I am still in a state of shock !</p><p>Wow</p>

[Nor]

<p>People are complaining about the ranger "fixes" here, but the funny thing is, I grouped with a ranger last night that re-activated because of the changes.</p><p>The grass is always greener...</p>

[Enslavior]

Echo's the great NEWS part ...now lets get down*End line AA line suggestion sound pretty solid with one exception, by tweaking Coercive Healing, Manaward, Tashiana(nice tweak bout time) were leavening Thought Snap out of the loop. My suggestion on TS would maybe add a few seconds to it, make it harder to resist and ADD a Hate modifier. When the MT gets up from a recent death and has to reacquire his target he uses allot of specials trying to get up higher on the hate list and when TS runs out if he is not high enough on the list he just losses agro anyways. By adding a Hate modifier to it we can help MT reacquire his target and KEEP IT.Dispel Magic AA other then PvP is this spell actually dispelling raid mobs? Would be nice to change this into a group cure arcane or perhaps add a group 10 second stun resist <thats crazy talk>.*Reactives- Humm this one is tricky, I can see how changing the reactives to take incoming damage as the trigger rather then outgoing damage is great for groups or raid BUT when soloing triggering the melee reactive would mean havening a melee pet or getting up there and sticking it out with the mob. Mindbend- could benefit from the reactive changes it would be nice if it was augmented abit so we could find use for it in raids, As is i don't even keep it on my hot bar(cept solo/group settup)*Cataclysmic Minds- OMG if there is one spell more then any other that needs the big love stick its this one. Strip it and start from scratch on this bad boy. Making it a real NICE DD with a bigger timer might be nice...I would love to have atleast ONE big blast to hit mobs with(sorry Sonic you just dont measure up to all the big boys) as is only use i had for it was to help control my VP>30percent power.........*Puppetmaster- I like the little guys but there DPS needs a bump just a tad.*Possession- where to start I would be happy to have it changed into a spell that will add DPS to the coercer and sadd to see it go when that mobs in your way and you just want to move him. If I had to choose I will take the DPS over the fun.A no zone/ no Con pet would Rock BUT would you still be able to charm mobs? Havening two pets up at once?Would also be nice to not have to worry about dieing and having your pet wipe the group.For those that say we just be like a Conju well yea but Enchanters have always been a pet class and the fact that the coercer pets are not wanted in groups and Cant be used in raids [Removed for Content] us from the start.*Drains To Damage?<WAVES BYBY TO DRAINS> OK in PvP there is a use for drains and I think the this issue should be handled differently for them. As for PvE the drain is a useless spell and nothing more then SPAM on your screen. Adding a dot damage to stiffle OK. Adding a DD to Deep Focus i like it...i think i would rather have the  DD upfront and with the 8 seconds stun a soloing coercer can re-mez the MOB easy enough. Don't want to see you make this spell harder then it needs to be looking to see if a mob is mezed or not to get your DPS its a cool idea but isn't the point getting the DPS up on our class and making a spell not DPS at times is counter productive.Confoundment- be nice to add a aoe DD to this one as well to go along with the stun.Torment and Gaze a boost here in damage be a welcome sight.All an All the fact your reading and thinking of a revamp makes me happy and warmEnslavior

[Roald]

<cite>Darkc wrote:</cite><blockquote>Back when EQ2 originally came out, they promised no PvP due balance issues.  Due to demend they added PvP with the consequence that classes like Coecers / Rangers would be crippled in PvE due to "OMG don't fix the class cause of PvP".  PvP can kiss my [I cannot control my vocabulary] imo...</blockquote><p>Like it or not, PvP is now a significant part of EQ2. I'm sure that if the devs realise a class needs buffing, and actually take the time to do various fixes and community feedback, they aren't gonna go ahead and make it more useless in PvP.</p><p>To reiterate, reactives after this patch should STILL proc of people/NPCs attacks, anything extra is a bonus and appreciated. Also, I wouldn't mind seeing some extra defensive abilities for Coercers in PvP, such as a mit buff to Magi shielding, or a regenerating ward.</p>

[Alfgand]

<cite>Enslavior wrote:</cite><blockquote>My suggestion on TS would maybe add a few seconds to it, make it harder to resist and ADD a Hate modifier. When the MT gets up from a recent death and has to reacquire his target he uses allot of specials trying to get up higher on the hate list and when TS runs out if he is not high enough on the list he just losses agro anyways. By adding a Hate modifier to it we can help MT reacquire his target and KEEP IT.Enslavior</blockquote>That would be so very nice!

[Nuhus]

Not sure if I'll take my coercer out of retirement, but darn tempting after that GU

[Ibunubi]

<cite>Kneemin@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not exactly sure how all this is going to go over with pvp but PLEASE for the love of god dont' just throw these in here without getting some coercers from PvP  to look at it... the way the reactives sound now seems like we wont' be able to burst as much in PvP and when I'm fighting in pvp I rely on stacking reactives and having them all proc off my opponents attacks and NOT my own.... I also rely on my power drains quite a bit I would hate to see them just do damage now........All I'm asking is that a good bit of testing be done in PvP as well as PvE for these changes perhaps some of them just not carry over to pvp?</blockquote><p>I'm just waiting for the patch.</p><p>On another note, while you are revamping the the Dehate Link line... Add a PvP component to 5% drop target. This was re-suggested by a friend of mine, Wobbleflop.</p>

[Anaun]

<p>Sounds like a lot of nice changes.</p><p>One question though: with the removal power drains, would the Cerebral Shock & Consuming Thoughts lines still replenish player power?</p>

[zorros]

<cite>Milambers@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkc wrote:</cite><blockquote>Back when EQ2 originally came out, they promised no PvP due balance issues.  Due to demend they added PvP with the consequence that classes like Coecers / Rangers would be crippled in PvE due to "OMG don't fix the class cause of PvP".  PvP can kiss my [I cannot control my vocabulary] imo...</blockquote><p>Like it or not, PvP is now a significant part of EQ2. I'm sure that if the devs realise a class needs buffing, and actually take the time to do various fixes and community feedback, they aren't gonna go ahead and make it more useless in PvP.</p><p>To reiterate, reactives after this patch should STILL proc of people/NPCs attacks, anything extra is a bonus and appreciated. Also, I wouldn't mind seeing some extra defensive abilities for Coercers in PvP, such as a mit buff to Magi shielding, or a regenerating ward.</p></blockquote>They never ever said when eq2 came out there would be NO pvp. What they said was we have no plans for pvp at this time. Huge difference.

[Nor]

<p>If pvp servers want power drains, and blue servers do not...why not keep them separate?  Test server updates are different from live servers, and just like pvp servers, characters can't swap servers.</p><p>Who says they can't, or shouldn't make changes on pvp servers that don't go on blue servers, and vice versa?  Well...other than the "that's more work for us and we'd rather not" thing...</p>

[ke'la]

<cite>Itscrackerjack@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok i know this is about Coercers and im glad you guys have got some love but while we have someones attention can some one please look again at illusionists pets. They still dont keep up with us. Its very annoying to have to run around in stealth in pvp just so if i see someone or i get attacked my pet isnt 2 mins away from me.VM change btw is fab. Since you guys nerfed the stay incombat tactic i found it increasingly stupid to have to keep spaming sprint all the time cos im lazy lol and as for the mana drain change thats just totally fantastic !!!.I just hope its not too late.</blockquote>You know Conj's get a spell that calls thier pet to them, not shure if it's an AA or a Regular spell, or even the casting times/recovery times, but I think a "fix" to this issue for all pet classes maybe to give them all a Non-combate version of this spell that is Insta-cast with a relitivly short recast say 15-20secs. That way when the the pet falls behind, you just have to hit this insta call pet spell and it is with you again, oviously the pet accually has to be cast. Granted this does not fix the underlining issue, but as there seems to be major issues in getting the pets to keep up with the player, as they have put in multiple "fixes" that while possably improve the issue alittle(though even that is debatable) it has not solved the problem.

[Darkc]

<cite>Itscrackerjack@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Milambers@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkc wrote:</cite><blockquote>Back when EQ2 originally came out, they promised no PvP due balance issues.  Due to demend they added PvP with the consequence that classes like Coecers / Rangers would be crippled in PvE due to "OMG don't fix the class cause of PvP".  PvP can kiss my [I cannot control my vocabulary] imo...</blockquote><p>Like it or not, PvP is now a significant part of EQ2. I'm sure that if the devs realise a class needs buffing, and actually take the time to do various fixes and community feedback, they aren't gonna go ahead and make it more useless in PvP.</p><p>To reiterate, reactives after this patch should STILL proc of people/NPCs attacks, anything extra is a bonus and appreciated. Also, I wouldn't mind seeing some extra defensive abilities for Coercers in PvP, such as a mit buff to Magi shielding, or a regenerating ward.</p></blockquote>They never ever said when eq2 came out there would be NO pvp. What they said was we have no plans for pvp at this time. Huge difference.</blockquote><p>Isn't that the same thing? lol.  I was there from the moment servers went live and reading on the boards (this is my 2nd account handle, I can post on my main if you wish) from the beginning.  The Devs were strongly opposed to PvP because balancing PvE was a nightmare enough, and the original "vision" of the game was to be fully balanced (which went overboard and while "balanced", it wasn't fun) ... WoW used this to their advantage, and eventually EQ2 gave in and added PvP.  With PvP in play there just isn't the flexiablity to add certain abilities that might be mild on a mob, but overpowered vs a player or vice versa.  Or as we see with Coercers... power drains are useless on PvE, but they've kept them around because of PvP.  </p><p> I know PvP is in the game now and it is not going away, but trying to balance the two is screwing some classes over.  </p>

[CtrlF]

<cite>Darkc wrote:</cite><blockquote> I know PvP is in the game now and it is not going away, but trying to balance the two is screwing some classes over.</blockquote>Such is life in the great big world of MMO's. Let's hope that the changes are good for both PvE and PvP players instead of hoping one isn't "screwing" the other over. I have to figure that any change made these days is carefully evaluated from both angles.

[Norrsken]

Hmm. not sure that replacing powerdrains with damage is bad for the pvp coercers, it all depends on the amount of damage really.

[Flipmode]

The only problem I can see is all you folks complaining about PvP that raid.  You cant have it both ways.  Either you want power drains or you dont.  Either your reactives to work like now or they dont.  You cant have reactives that work like now for PvP and then another on a raid so it would seem you have a choice to make.  Stay [Removed for Content] or get this new fix and relearn to play the class.<div><div>Another thing, someone mentioned mindbend being fixed to be useful in a raid.  Please DONT TOUCH IT!!!  It is fine as is.  Not every spell we have has to be used in a raid.  Its great for grouping and soloing.</div></div>

[Alienor]

<cite>ke'la wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Itscrackerjack@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok i know this is about Coercers and im glad you guys have got some love but while we have someones attention can some one please look again at illusionists pets. They still dont keep up with us. Its very annoying to have to run around in stealth in pvp just so if i see someone or i get attacked my pet isnt 2 mins away from me.</blockquote>You know Conj's get a spell that calls thier pet to them, not shure if it's an AA or a Regular spell, or even the casting times/recovery times, but I think a "fix" to this issue for all pet classes maybe to give them all a Non-combate version of this spell that is Insta-cast with a relitivly short recast say 15-20secs. That way when the the pet falls behind, you just have to hit this insta call pet spell and it is with you again, oviously the pet accually has to be cast. Granted this does not fix the underlining issue, but as there seems to be major issues in getting the pets to keep up with the player, as they have put in multiple "fixes" that while possably improve the issue alittle(though even that is debatable) it has not solved the problem.</blockquote>Good point. I would appreciate that. Btw, it is a regular spell of summoners.

[ghhtwsfqa]

<p>I am going to assume that the intent here is to close the gap between coercers and illusionist by upping coercers to be on par with illusionists rather then bring illusionists down.  At least that was what I gathered from the tone of the message and I know you wouldn't try to deceive your own players by intentionally nerfing a class while making it sound like a good thing they should be celebrating cause that would just be cruel.</p><p>With that said; I, like all other enchanters, find sprinting to be an annoying thing to have to constantly maintain and greatly appreciate the change.  However, I go through this constant annoying thing for a real benefit, 30% increase to base dps is quite a lot.  Reducing it significantly, while making my class less annoying to play, will also make it less enjoyable to play.  Even 15% would be really irritating, that would be the equivalent of losing my highest dps spell.</p><p>Adding damage to other spells that are on slow recast timers isn't going to help.  Even if the damage is more than existing spells such that it is worth cycling it in, unless the damage is on the order of 10k, their slow recast regulates them to 1-2% of total dps each.</p><p>Some suggestions</p><p>Suggest 1:</p><p>VM = 25% increase to base damage but costs makes all spells cost 33% more power, turns power drain component of spells into damage, can be toggled on/off quickly</p><p>This address the PVP and soloing issue by not changing the power drain spells when it is toggled off.Someone suggested a reoccurring 15% power drain, I think this is a horrible idea asA.  15% is 1500 power, that's way too much power to lose on a reoccurring basis.B.  Even if the power cost is dropped to a non arsine amount, we would have to toggle it on/off between fights and this is the same annoying thing sprint is, not as bad, but let's get away from it all together.Sorry for intruding on the coercer forums, it is about time you guys got some loving, but this post effects illusionist as well and I wish you all the best and hope this works out great for us all.</p><p>Cheers</p>

[mylin1]

Would it be possible (or even useful) if the mana drain did the mana drain, inflicted x damage on the target based on how much mana they lost and then do a group wide mana refresh based on a % of the main drained...ie,  Drains 500 mana ,  inflicts 1500 damage and refreshes 150 power to all in the Coe group.Just a random thought, I like the concept of mana drains!

[Dravendar]

<p>I'll throw my 2c in as well.</p><p><u>Cataclysmic Mind:</u></p><p>Try looking at changing this spell so that % of power that is USED by players to inflict damage on the mob is then converted to damage for x duration.  Utilising a time based component would allow players to coordinate the usage of this spell in order to maximise the dmg potential.  The idea that comes to mind are wizards using manaburn in conjunction with this spell for the maximum effect.  </p><p>Either increasing the recast time or lowering the % value to realistic levels would prevent this from becoming overpowering.  I would suggest the duration portion instead of triggers to allow the potential of this spell to remain high thus rewarding coordination while haphazard application would produce more modest output.  </p><p>To increase the perceived utility of this spell for raids, you can attribute the damage to ALL the individual casters and not JUST that of the coercer.  Doing this would introduce another variable in the fight for maximizing DPS potential, kind of like how PoTM affects casters.  Gameplay would be more intricate and complex and the interactivity among players would increase.  </p><p>Food for thought. </p>

[Murc]

I'm but a very low-level newb to the whole Coercer thing, but I'd like to ask this here while the topic of discussion is on changes and improvements.What exactly, is the logic behind Charm spells having BOTH a limited duration *and* a chance to randomly break?   I mean, besides solely to make our lives more frustrating.  One would think that one or the other would suffice, yes?my coercer is very low, but even at his low level, the Charm spell frustrates the hell out of me with the random breaking in the middle of combat.  It ALWAYS breaks *when* I am fighting. if I'm just standing around doing nothing, I can keep something charmed practically forever(well, until the duration runs out).Keep the Duration, get rid of the random break chance.

[mylin1]

Agree about the random break thing, its just a pain - I have no issue with increasing the charm resist rate up so everyone doesnt run around with orange con pets etc.or remove the duration and have it kept until it randomly breaks if the random part is a desired "fun" element of being a coercer

[Dacies18]

As a new PVP player I picked a Coer for the very first time. I liked it a lot at first. I was really good at killing lower lvl Healers. But other then that was not doing so good. To my Horror I finaly landed one of my charm's a player.. my 9 second cast or whatever it was only lasted like 5 sec on the target. I dont care so much that it charms or not but make it a little more useful like a longer mez or something!

[Dacies18]

As a new PVP player I picked a Coer for the very first time. I liked it a lot at first. I was really good at killing lower lvl Healers. But other then that was not doing so good. To my Horror I finaly landed one of my charm's a player.. my 9 second cast or whatever it was only lasted like 5 sec on the target. I dont care so much that it charms or not but make it a little more useful like a longer mez or something!

[Lleinen]

Devs have already stated that they can easily keep PvP and PvE seperate, just seems that most the changes they have been making to PvE based off PvP changes is what they wanted to happen in PvE anyway (such as our pets hitting too hard).You can fight me on this comment all you want but Im just telling you what I was told.

[Beefie]

In addition, i think we should be able to control more than one creature, by way of aa line or whatever.

[Zhephiraa]

log on test, and roll coercer.

[Soldancer]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>I made the stun lines work for mezzing and dps.  Basically when the stun wears off it will nuke the mob if its not currently mezzed.  This way you don't have to adjust your tactics but if you are in dps mode you still get the added dps of the nuke.</blockquote> That's a good idea but what is with roots? If I root a stunned mob then the finishing nuke of the stun can break the root, that's bad. Again I must say that control spells and damage spells should be clearly divided and not mixed - only by this way a crowd controller can do his job right. It's great that You want to increase our dps but why not simply increase the damage of the damage spells?

[Illine]

<p>those are great changes.</p><p> For the mana drain changing into damage, I hope it won't be a dot for coercers and a dd for illus. For mana it's ok, but for HP drain, it would make our stun and stiffle useless on some encounters like venril. And since we only have one stiffle. I want to be able to use it on Venril.</p><p> Then, for hostage, now it will proc when an ally hits the mob, and cataclismic mind will proc when it's a spell? then what will become spell lash? What will it do? it's how I first though it was, that would be a lot better. Hope they don't lower the damage.</p><p> Possession will be a little like the Wis line end spell except it will be a non charmed limlited pet? we will control it? and we'll be able to cast it on any mob of the encounter? What will be its strength? will we be able to use it on epics and will the strength depend on the spell level or the mob level? Or both? or will it be like puppetmaster? just a crappy pet  with the look of the mob? even that would be more usefull :p anyway XD</p><p>Or why not make volatile magic a bit like tandem or druid's infusion? a chance of procing a little mental damage on each hostil spell? using a bit of mana each proc? it would be a buff we could cast or remove.</p><p>thanks again <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Illine]

<cite>Yorke wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>These changes sound extremely positive.</p><p>I'm intrigued by the suggested change to Possession. Will this mean that we will in effect, be able to have 2 mobs charmed at the same time? If so, will both be fully controllable in terms of attack, back off, follow commands etc?</p><p>Also, excuse my ignorance but I have no idea what Soul Ward is and so comparing the change to Mana Ward to it is meaningless to me. Could someone please clarify what this means?</p><p>From my experience the things that are most desirable to healers are : Heal Amount, Heal Crits and Cast Time, so perhaps including these bonuses with Coercive Healing would help to make its appeal along the same lines as that of Illusory Arm.</p><p>Everything else sounds spot on ... thankyou!</p></blockquote><p>we already have the res line AA group buff that increase up to 16% heal crit ... I think increasing all heals, not only the special ones would be already a good thing. and making the spell almost as usefull on any healer class. right now it's great on shamans, a little less on druids and even less on clerics <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />. Especially when grouped with a monk and cleric who don't use his proc heal coz not good on monks :s.</p><p>or maybe a group buff ??</p>

[Jesdyr]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Possession - You guys dislike it and I think I dislike it even more.  So this spell is getting a big change.  Instead of temporarily controlling a creature, it will keep with the possession theme by creating an essence of the creature that is a controllable pet.  It basically turns into an always on pseudo charm pet.  This pet won't be able to zone or anything but you can at least use it in dungeons with groups or raids.  </blockquote>Any chance on getting a little more detail on this?  I understand how a Dev would hate the current spell it is 99% worthless but that 1% is overpowering and can cause some weird bugs.

[Nor]

<cite>Tarklus@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm but a very low-level newb to the whole Coercer thing, but I'd like to ask this here while the topic of discussion is on changes and improvements.What exactly, is the logic behind Charm spells having BOTH a limited duration *and* a chance to randomly break?   I mean, besides solely to make our lives more frustrating.  One would think that one or the other would suffice, yes?my coercer is very low, but even at his low level, the Charm spell frustrates the hell out of me with the random breaking in the middle of combat.  It ALWAYS breaks *when* I am fighting. if I'm just standing around doing nothing, I can keep something charmed practically forever(well, until the duration runs out).Keep the Duration, get rid of the random break chance.</blockquote><p>I believe that the original reasoning behind this had to do with risk versus reward.  I'm not sure that the reward part is still there, but of course the spell was never changed to compensate.</p><p>I have no problem with the spell breaking, although one would think that with an adept3 or better and 5 points into the aa that charm would last the duration every single time.  That just isn't the case.  However, as the level of the spell determines the level of the mob and their skills, I'm more prone to agree that there is no reason for the spell to actually have a recuring chance to break.</p>

[Wizairde]

<p>I like these changes, and I appreciate the boost.</p><p>My only request is please watch our concentration slots so that all these changes don't [Removed for Content] us.</p><p>Charming mobs is great, but most often in raids - there's not much to charm.</p><p>I find my 6-man instancing typically dislikes charming except in a handful of cases. Typically my concentration is the DPS buff and the two mana regens. Two DPS buffs two mana regens - leaves me one slot which I typically use on me for Auspex. (or whatever its called now)</p><p>Yaa for these changes... boo to concentration issues. lol</p>

[Vumael]

<p>I like the ideas presented so far.  Some things as a coercer I would like to be possibly reviewed also are:</p><p> <u><b>Dissecting Gaze</b></u> - This spell as your previous post suggests may get beefed up because it is one of those "power drain" oriented, but just in case its overlooked, it could use a bit of a damage increase.  It's nearly useless as is.  My Master I version at the moment does 233-285 damage every 4 seconds on target encounter for 12 seconds... <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p> <b><u>Ego Melt</u></b> - Adept III version does 985 - 1204 on target encounter, it does daze also... but I think this could be a little bit higher.</p><p>Changes to these spells, plus the ones presented would make me a very happy coercer.  I'm glad that possession is being addressed.  Possession is by far my most useless spell.  It's useful to see what certain mobs can cast, but its duration and limited use (unengaged mobs only) makes it too restricted to use for any reasonable, practical use.</p><p>I'm glad to see the possibility of parsing as high as my other mage oriented colleagues.  Please balance and make this update soon, I'm dying for it!</p><p>                                                                                                     ~ Vumael Starveil (Vox) 80 Coercer</p>

[Econometr]

<cite>Tarklus@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm but a very low-level newb to the whole Coercer thing, but I'd like to ask this here while the topic of discussion is on changes and improvements.What exactly, is the logic behind Charm spells having BOTH a limited duration *and* a chance to randomly break?   I mean, besides solely to make our lives more frustrating.  One would think that one or the other would suffice, yes?my coercer is very low, but even at his low level, the Charm spell frustrates the hell out of me with the random breaking in the middle of combat.  It ALWAYS breaks *when* I am fighting. if I'm just standing around doing nothing, I can keep something charmed practically forever(well, until the duration runs out).Keep the Duration, get rid of the random break chance.</blockquote> <p > I think something akin to this would be good.  As per my earlier post, I do not want to see the coercer given personae spells similar to those of the illusionist since this would reduce the uniqueness of both classes and call into question the value of playing an illusionist.   The coercer should remain a charm-oriented class.  I rarely see charm resisted when first cast.  However, it does tend to break quickly and often results in dire consequences for the coercer.  Therefore, I think the charm spells could be improved as follows: 1.  Leave the fixed spell duration as is. 2.  Eliminate the resist checks if the charm is successful.  The charm should remain in tact until the spell expires. 3.  Increase the resist rate when the charm spell is first cast.  This is to compensate for the loss of resist checks.  The level of resistability should correspond to the difference in power between the coercer and the target.  That is, targets that are more powerful than the coercer should have a greater chance to resist the spell up front. 4.  A target that has been charmed previously should have increased resistance to subsequent charm attempts.  5.  Eliminate the health/power regeneration.  This is unnecessary if the charm cannot break before the spell expires.   6.  Reconsider the degree to which the pet's power is reduced once charmed.   It should be difficult for the coercer to charm a pet that is vastly more powerful than him or her.  However, if s/he is successful, then s/he should not be penalized by having the pet gimped. The above changes would allow the coercer to charm more powerful pets than those possessed by the illusionist but would still make charm a little risky and force the coercer to renew the charm, or seek out another pet, on a regular basis.  Following the above line of reasoning, I would advocate the following changes for possession.  Note that I am making these suggestions without having ever cast possession personally.  Thus, I ask your forgiveness if any of my suggestions are irrelevant: 1.  Increase the duration of the spell.  Although 24s seems like a long time, it takes time for the coercer to figure out how to manipulate the pet to do anything useful.  A fixed duration of 1 minute for adept I might not be unreasonable.  Perhaps even more, though I think the positive changes made to possession need to be balanced against the existing problems with the illusionist spell phase.  Increases in duration should scale with the rank of the spell. 2.  The level of resistability when the spell is first cast on a target should correspond to the difference in power between the coercer and the target.  Targets that are more powerful than the coercer should have a greater chance to resist the spell up front.</p><p >3.  Eliminate resist checks when the possessed target takes damage.</p><p >4.  Allow targets in combat to be possessed.</p>5.  Concentration slot requirements (if any) and the ability to possess a target while another target is charmed (yes or no) should remain as they currently are.<p >One more thought.  I do not like the idea of reducing the damage increase provided by volatile magic.  Coercers need some increase in DPS.  However, this should not come at the expense of the illusionist.  The devs should recognize that both classes are underrepresented in the game.  Reducing the DPS of the illusionist will only drive more players to higher-DPS classes and increase the extent to which the game is DPS oriented.  </p>A number of individuals have suggested creative ways to fix the problem that exists with volatile magic.  The devs should give strong consideration to these ideas.  Would there be any way to prevent volatile magic from being used within a fixed duration after an enchanter has finished sprinting (say, some number of minutes)?  If so, then this would address the devs' concerns regarding the misuse of volatile magic.  However, as noted by many players, volatile magic is difficult to employ (i.e., rarely comes into play) without sprinting.  If the sprinting issue can be addressed, then perhaps the power-reduction threshold could be increased from 30% to 50%.  The increase in damage output should remain as is.  This would allow the the ability to remain somewhat "volatile."  Alternatively, the ability could be tied to a health-reduction threshold instead of a power-reduction threshold.  This would also address the sprint-spamming issue.<p > </p>

[Butcher of Baghdad]

<p>Changes sound great. </p><p>Just few suggestions : Any chance of getting a spell that gives the coecer "tracking spell" to locate mental auras via clairvoyance? The Illusionist gets a group invis spell..which makes sense..but coecer gets.... Also all the caster classes..wizard, warlock, conj, necro, etc.. get a pretty decent level 40 spell (stoneskin, ringmail, etc) , but the coecer gets a very short duration fear spell..which in my humble opinion is not very usefull, unless you fighting in pvp on a very high cliff. Anyway that 40 coecer spell can be tweaked or something new offered.</p><p> Thanks again for changes.</p><p>Littlefinger of the Vox</p>

[Vumael]

<p>"1.  Leave the fixed spell duration as is.2.  Eliminate the resist checks if the charm is successful.  The charm should remain in tact until the spell expires.3.  Increase the resist rate when the charm spell is first cast.  This is to compensate for the loss of resist checks.  The level of resistability should correspond to the difference in power between the coercer and the target.  That is, targets that are more powerful than the coercer should have a greater chance to resist the spell up front. 4.  A target that has been charmed previously should have increased resistance to subsequent charm attempts.  5.  Eliminate the health/power regeneration.  This is unnecessary if the charm cannot break before the spell expires.   6.  Reconsider the degree to which the pet's power is reduced once charmed.   It should be difficult for the coercer to charm a pet that is vastly more powerful than him or her.  However, if s/he is successful, then s/he should not be penalized by having the pet gimped."</p><p>I disagree with each of these.  </p><p>1 & 2.) At my current Adept III level of charm (zero aa into it, although I'm changing my spec) charm nearly never breaks early. </p><p>3.) I do not want a resist increase chance in charming mobs, it usually equates to getting 2 shotted by higher level mobs.  </p><p>4.) I do not want an increase in resists on previously charmed mobs as I frequently have to recharm for various reasons (such as health recovery of the pet, and the occasional although rare early break.)</p><p>5.) The health / power regeneration is good, it keeps the pet alive when I have some downtime, it actually does make a difference at the higher levels.</p><p>6.) I wouldn't mind having a less gimped pet (good old EQ1) although honestly right now it doesnt bother me at all.</p><p>These may be concerns at lower levels, but at 80 as a coercer I want nearly no changes made to charm.  I am extremely good with using charm and playing my class, and if you'd like to learn how to use charms effectively please feel free to swing by Vox sometime and I'll teach anyone who wants to know.  Leave charm alone!!! </p><p>                                                                                                  ~ Vumael Starveil (Vox) 80 Master Coercer</p>

[TheLastB]

<p>seeing as coercer is a control class Id really like to see more use of control being used in raid scenarios.......with that being said I think the changes will probably be underwhelming for the most part....but thats probably because it is essentially a hard class to balance right.</p><p> 1 thing Id like to see changed - which fits the role is to have a frostward/nullmail equivalent that is activated once you're under 30% hp that has a 50% chance to mez target for 5sec......or increased mit for 20sec.....or dmg will be taken from power other than hp for xx time.......</p><p> its no fun to be killed by a scout in 2seconds and have no chance to fight back...or be required to control a mob(s)  only to be 2hit and lose all control.</p>

[Enslavior]

<span class="postbody">More thoughts on <b><u>Cataclysmic Minds</u></b>what about a HIGH damage dot with a user power drainthe spell as is has a power drain for the USER.......... leave that.......... and the spell was using a percentage based system for damage lets just tweak that eg:                  Cast cost              percentage increase                     total damage1stcast       300 power                         0                                          15002nd tick      300 power                       100%                                     30003rd tick       300 power                       150%                                     37504th tick       300 power                       200%                                     45005th tick       300 power                       250%                                     5250The total power cost would be 1500power total damage 18,000 The AA line as is could be augmented...... as is it increases the duration of the spell which could just add more high powered TICKS6th tick        300 power                        300%                                     60007th tick        300 power                        350%                                     6750The base damage would be determined by the Coercers INT. To make it simple to understand i just threw the 1500 base damage.ENSLAVIOR</span><hr />

[Econometr]

<cite>Vumael wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>"1.  Leave the fixed spell duration as is.2.  Eliminate the resist checks if the charm is successful.  The charm should remain in tact until the spell expires.3.  Increase the resist rate when the charm spell is first cast.  This is to compensate for the loss of resist checks.  The level of resistability should correspond to the difference in power between the coercer and the target.  That is, targets that are more powerful than the coercer should have a greater chance to resist the spell up front. 4.  A target that has been charmed previously should have increased resistance to subsequent charm attempts.  5.  Eliminate the health/power regeneration.  This is unnecessary if the charm cannot break before the spell expires.   6.  Reconsider the degree to which the pet's power is reduced once charmed.   It should be difficult for the coercer to charm a pet that is vastly more powerful than him or her.  However, if s/he is successful, then s/he should not be penalized by having the pet gimped."</p><p>I disagree with each of these.  </p><p>1 & 2.) At my current Adept III level of charm (zero aa into it, although I'm changing my spec) charm nearly never breaks early. </p><p>3.) I do not want a resist increase chance in charming mobs, it usually equates to getting 2 shotted by higher level mobs.  </p><p>4.) I do not want an increase in resists on previously charmed mobs as I frequently have to recharm for various reasons (such as health recovery of the pet, and the occasional although rare early break.)</p><p>5.) The health / power regeneration is good, it keeps the pet alive when I have some downtime, it actually does make a difference at the higher levels.</p><p>6.) I wouldn't mind having a less gimped pet (good old EQ1) although honestly right now it doesnt bother me at all.</p><p>These may be concerns at lower levels, but at 80 as a coercer I want nearly no changes made to charm.  I am extremely good with using charm and playing my class, and if you'd like to learn how to use charms effectively please feel free to swing by Vox sometime and I'll teach anyone who wants to know.  Leave charm alone!!! </p><p>                                                                                                  ~ Vumael Starveil (Vox) 80 Master Coercer</p></blockquote><cite></cite>You make some really good points.  I think the different points of view highlight the different priorities of PVE and PVP.  It's going to be difficult for the devs to satisfy everyone given the different needs of the two player populations.

[Grimlux]

Whatever happens to the Coercer, I would hope that PVP has nothing to do with anything to do on PVE servers.

[Illine]

<cite>Wizairde wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I like these changes, and I appreciate the boost.</p><p>My only request is please watch our concentration slots so that all these changes don't [Removed for Content] us.</p><p>Charming mobs is great, but most often in raids - there's not much to charm.</p><p>I find my 6-man instancing typically dislikes charming except in a handful of cases. Typically my concentration is the DPS buff and the two mana regens. Two DPS buffs two mana regens - leaves me one slot which I typically use on me for Auspex. (or whatever its called now)</p><p>Yaa for these changes... boo to concentration issues. lol</p></blockquote><p>hum our mana regen do not need conc slot, we're not bards.  you must talk about our int and resist buff, no?</p><p>Charm won't change with conentration I think.  3 conc slot, it's more for soloing than grouping.</p><p>Possession should not use a conc slot.</p><p>auspex (hostage T<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> is a damage proc spell ... you must talk about harmonious link, don't you?</p>

[rvbarton]

can we copy our existing coercers over and test them?

[Terron]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Volatile Magic - This will change for all enchanters.  The spell does not play well since I see many of the enchanters just spamming sprint to stay under 30% power.  That really wasn't the intention of the skill at all.  Instead it will be a reduced amount that applies regardless of your current power amount.Power drains - To compensate some for the reduction to Volatile Magic, both enchanter subclasses will be getting their power drains turned into damage.  In their current state these are more useful for their control effects rather than the actual power drains.  After the changes the spells should be a bit more useful.</blockquote>Speaking as an illusionist I welcome the change to VM.However, I am less certain about the change to power drains.True they are very rarely useful in PvE - sometimes it is useful drain healer mobs.With our personnae also draining as a side effect of stunning this can be done fairly quickly.It is true they are more useful for their control effects, but that is as it should be - control is what enchanters should be about.I use the stun spell to stun, the power drain is just a minor bonus.It is already a very useful spell.I am not sure how replacing the power drain by damage will compensate for a reduced bonus from VM - it is not as if we are short of spells to cast.

[Wizairde]

<cite>Earar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wizairde wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I like these changes, and I appreciate the boost.</p><p>My only request is please watch our concentration slots so that all these changes don't [Removed for Content] us.</p><p>Charming mobs is great, but most often in raids - there's not much to charm.</p><p>I find my 6-man instancing typically dislikes charming except in a handful of cases. Typically my concentration is the DPS buff and the two mana regens. Two DPS buffs two mana regens - leaves me one slot which I typically use on me for Auspex. (or whatever its called now)</p><p>Yaa for these changes... boo to concentration issues. lol</p></blockquote><p>hum our mana regen do not need conc slot, we're not bards.  you must talk about our int and resist buff, no?</p><p>Charm won't change with conentration I think.  3 conc slot, it's more for soloing than grouping.</p><p>Possession should not use a conc slot.</p><p>auspex (hostage T<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> is a damage proc spell ... you must talk about harmonious link, don't you?</p></blockquote><p>LOL I need to slow down before I hit send. I'm in dirge mental mode. Yes to int buff vs mana. I had hostage on the brain because I was talking about the DPS buff. I DPS buff myself is what I meant when I have a fifth concentration slot spare - in which case I'm using Hostage. I rarely harmonious link myself unless I'm duo'ing.</p>

[Wolphin]

<cite>Kalyai wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><p>Please dont remove power drains completely...yes take some of them and turn them to damage but please please let us have our power drains...even if it means changing the spells for pvp ...</p><p>power drains are a big big part of a solo coercer's pvp tactic...draining our opponent's power is sometimes the only way we can win a fight!</p><p>Please let us keep our power drains... </p></blockquote></blockquote>I agree with Kalyai on this. As an enchanter that does not raid a whole lot, I use my power drains quite a bit when duo'ing with my wife or doing quests solo. Please don't take them all away because they aren't as effective in raids. While raids are a good portion of time spent by some people, not everyone raids and there are uses for the power drains in PvE. Taking a mobs power away so all he can do is swing makes that mob easier to heal or survive against while you kill it with a small group or solo.

[Murc]

<cite>Vumael wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>These may be concerns at lower levels, but at 80 as a coercer I want nearly no changes made to charm.  I am extremely good with using charm and playing my class, and if you'd like to learn how to use charms effectively please feel free to swing by Vox sometime and I'll teach anyone who wants to know.  Leave charm alone!!! </p><p>                                                                                                  ~ Vumael Starveil (Vox) 80 Master Coercer</p></blockquote>you may not have meant it this way(or maybe you did), but this really comes off as "[Removed for Content] and learn to play."but i suppose that's a valid point.  but I'm just saying, sure at level 80 everything is fine and perfect and wonderful...but I'm not there yet, so I'm a little frustrated with the spell. but I'm dealing with it nonetheless.  just keep in mind that not everyone is as geared, as high a level, or as experienced with the class as you are.

[CtrlF]

<cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Whatever happens to the Coercer, I would hope that PVP has nothing to do with anything to do on PVE servers. </blockquote><p>Exactly! Because we all know that the PvE players' dollars are each worth more than the PvP players' dollars.</p><p>Hmm .. wait .. maybe I got that wrong. I think my $15/month is the same as your $15/month. Actually .. yeah .. I'm pretty sure we pay the same amount!</p>

[RightInTwo]

<cite>Snafu@Splitpaw wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>Puppetmaster could really do with complete replacement; it's just a token 'filler' spell because I suspect whoever did the L80 coercer special spell couldn't think of anything better after the original (even worse!) Puppetmaster was changed.     There's lots of options here that fit the coercer theme, e.g. an aggression buff, or immuntiy to control effects (maybe like Close Mind on bruiser), <b>or a spell to feed lots of power quickly to someone who has been revived recently.</b></p></blockquote><p>I really like that idea!! It made me think of one of my own. How about a buff that when someone is revived in our group (would love it to be raid wide...but I'm sure that is op like crazy), they revive with 50% power instead of the 5% or whatever it is now. This would make it extremely useful in raids no matter which group the Coercer is in!! =D</p><p>Either way, love the changes, and I'm looking forward to seeing them in action. Devs, thanks so much for taking in all of the opinions/thoughts/concerns that all of the Coercers brought into account.</p>

[Pancho]

<p>Thank you Aeralik!</p><p>I'm a long time raider that plays my coercer as my main(not someone "blowing the dust off" their toon)</p><p><b>Enslavior's </b>post on page 7 is what I would recommend as well.</p><p>Regarding Possesion, I just want to know that whatever you come up with will work in VP and other raid zones, please dont limit it to hard-to-find heroic mobs within a raid zone.</p><p>Its nice to have cure arcane, when my main tank group healers get stunned or charmed, but as a Coercer, it would be nice to have some type of group cure arcane, and defense against stun or charm in some way, for us or group members.  I think it just makes sense that a Coercer should be able to help prevent people from getting charmed.</p><p>Thought Snap, is a VERY useful tool on raids.  I wish there was some way to make it less resistable, and have a little longer duration.  It gets resisted alot since the raid resist changes.</p><p>Thanks again for your work on our class!</p><p>Panchos - Vendetta - Butcherblock</p>

[Rarlin]

I would like to see the Dispel Magic AA give us the ability to dispel all magic based buffs on a mob (In other words, add in what Doom Judgement and up from the Crusaders dispels as well).

[Lleinen]

<cite>Enslavior wrote:</cite><blockquote><span class="postbody">More thoughts on <b><u>Cataclysmic Minds</u></b>what about a HIGH damage dot with a user power drainthe spell as is has a power drain for the USER.......... leave that.......... and the spell was using a percentage based system for damage lets just tweak that eg:                  Cast cost              percentage increase                     total damage1stcast       300 power                         0                                          15002nd tick      300 power                       100%                                     30003rd tick       300 power                       150%                                     37504th tick       300 power                       200%                                     45005th tick       300 power                       250%                                     5250The total power cost would be 1500power total damage 18,000 The AA line as is could be augmented...... as is it increases the duration of the spell which could just add more high powered TICKS6th tick        300 power                        300%                                     60007th tick        300 power                        350%                                     6750The base damage would be determined by the Coercers INT. To make it simple to understand i just threw the 1500 base damage.ENSLAVIOR</span><hr /></blockquote>interesting idea

[Cawti]

<cite>Enslavior wrote:</cite><blockquote>Echo's the great NEWS part ...now lets get down*End line AA line suggestion sound pretty solid with one exception, by tweaking Coercive Healing, Manaward, Tashiana(nice tweak bout time) were leavening Thought Snap out of the loop. My suggestion on TS would maybe add a few seconds to it, make it harder to resist and ADD a Hate modifier. When the MT gets up from a recent death and has to reacquire his target he uses allot of specials trying to get up higher on the hate list and when TS runs out if he is not high enough on the list he just losses agro anyways. By adding a Hate modifier to it we can help MT reacquire his target and KEEP IT.Dispel Magic AA other then PvP is this spell actually dispelling raid mobs? Would be nice to change this into a group cure arcane or perhaps add a group 10 second stun resist <thats crazy talk>.  <span style="color: #00cc00;">Maybe a change to cures to be arcane +stuns?  Instead of a change to dispell?  Although this can remove the standard bard/enchanter buffs you see on mobs which I guess is nice.  But considering a druid can remove anything, not just magic, it's a bit underwhelming considering the cost in AAs.  Mentioned an idea similar to this earlier in conjunction with the ward.  We're the masters of control supposedly, yet we are as helpless as lambs when controlled ourselves.  I don't think it'd be too out of line to make our cure arcane be a cure arcane + cure control (ie. stun/stifle/charm) on a single target on it's current long recast, castable while controlled.</span>*Reactives- Humm this one is tricky, I can see how changing the reactives to take incoming damage as the trigger rather then outgoing damage is great for groups or raid BUT when soloing triggering the melee reactive would mean havening a melee pet or getting up there and sticking it out with the mob.  <span style="color: #00cc00;">The current suggestion is certainly no worse than how it is on live right now, where to get procs on melee reactives someone actually has to get hit and take damage.  At least with a player/pet procced melee reactive you could place it, stun the mob, and then send in your pet.  This will require some work/strategy rather than simply keeping the pet on /ranged the whole time, but that's ok with me.</span>Mindbend- could benefit from the reactive changes it would be nice if it was augmented abit so we could find use for it in raids, As is i don't even keep it on my hot bar(cept solo/group settup)<span style="color: #00cc00;"> Yes, but this is a nice spell in solo/group play.  Not everything needs to be raid usable.  Consider all the other classes stuns and such.  The problem was that we had *so many* spells that weren't raid useable, or of extremely limited utility.  I'd like to see how the current proposed changes play out before asking for too much more.  That said, I wouldn't mind if something else were offered here in terms of AA's.  I doubt terribly many coercers actually sink points into Mindbend in the coercer tree.</span>*Cataclysmic Minds- OMG if there is one spell more then any other that needs the big love stick its this one. Strip it and start from scratch on this bad boy. Making it a real NICE DD with a bigger timer might be nice...I would love to have atleast ONE big blast to hit mobs with(sorry Sonic you just dont measure up to all the big boys) as is only use i had for it was to help control my VP>30percent power.........  <span style="color: #99ff66;"><span style="color: #00cc00;">I liked your suggestion later in the thread.  A dot that increases in damage each tic but with a recurring power cost.  Nice.</span></span>*Puppetmaster- I like the little guys but there DPS needs a bump just a tad.  <span style="color: #00cc00;">True.  They are cute and fun though.  Particularly when fighting a big dragon who has adds that look like itself.  *Insert evil giggle here.*</span>*Possession- where to start I would be happy to have it changed into a spell that will add DPS to the coercer and sadd to see it go when that mobs in your way and you just want to move him. If I had to choose I will take the DPS over the fun.A no zone/ no Con pet would Rock BUT would you still be able to charm mobs? Havening two pets up at once?Would also be nice to not have to worry about dieing and having your pet wipe the group.<span style="color: #00cc00;">I think it's quite reasonable for a level 65 ancient teaching to give us a 2nd pet with no concentration cost.  Necros get one with their level 55 charm undead spell, so it's not like there's no precedent for it.  I would hope that this spell can be used on *any mob* though.  Otherwise it'd have pretty limited raid utility.  Pets don't exactly have a long lifespan in a raid setting.</span>For those that say we just be like a Conju well yea but Enchanters have always been a pet class and the fact that the coercer pets are not wanted in groups and Cant be used in raids [Removed for Content] us from the start.*Drains To Damage?<WAVES BYBY TO DRAINS> OK in PvP there is a use for drains and I think the this issue should be handled differently for them. As for PvE the drain is a useless spell and nothing more then SPAM on your screen.   <span style="color: #00cc00;">The drains are 1 part useless spam and 1 part invisible aggro.  I'd love to see a point for point  transfer of all power drains into damage.  Don't forget the drains on our spells that already have damage too, though, please, Aeralik.</span>Adding a dot damage to stiffle OK. Adding a DD to Deep Focus i like it...i think i would rather have the  DD upfront and with the 8 seconds stun a soloing coercer can re-mez the MOB easy enough. Don't want to see you make this spell harder then it needs to be looking to see if a mob is mezed or not to get your DPS its a cool idea but isn't the point getting the DPS up on our class and making a spell not DPS at times is counter productive.  <span style="color: #00cc00;">Yes, much simpler to make it an up front DD, there's no need to work so hard to avoid mez issues.  The stuns last plenty long enough to reapply mez before they wear off.</span>  Confoundment- be nice to add a aoe DD to this one as well to go along with the stun.  Torment and Gaze a boost here in damage be a welcome sight.All an All the fact your reading and thinking of a revamp makes me happy and warmEnslavior</blockquote>

[Rijacki]

<cite>CtrlFrk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Whatever happens to the Coercer, I would hope that PVP has nothing to do with anything to do on PVE servers. </blockquote><p>Exactly! Because we all know that the PvE players' dollars are each worth more than the PvP players' dollars.</p><p>Hmm .. wait .. maybe I got that wrong. I think my $15/month is the same as your $15/month. Actually .. yeah .. I'm pretty sure we pay the same amount!</p></blockquote>CtrlFrk, No one said PvP should be second-class citizens or that PvP concerns for the changes shouldn't be addressed.  BUT, I am 100% positive Praetorate's concern (and the concern of many other coercers as well) is that coercer balancing will be done SOLELY around the effects of the class in PvP.  We have already had PvP specific changes also be applied to the PvE servers even when included in patch notes as being for PvP only (i.e. the drastic reduction in damage for Kunark charmed pets).  Just as you, and other PvPers, don't want changes solely for PvE reasons to drastically change a class or mechanic in PvP, why can't the PvEers have a similar concern without you (or other PvPers) denigrating any concern but your own? Why should PvE concerns be treated as less important than PvP concerns?  Why should PvE be balanced around how things work in PvP? <cite>Lyea@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>can we copy our existing coercers over and test them?</blockquote>There are 2 Test servers. - One is designed to mimic a standard server and has an on-going community.  For that one, you need to create a character and level it as normal (something that would help test the changes in the beginning levels, too).- The second is the former Test PvP (with PvP still currently turned off) to which you can /testcopy to help test something specific or test with a mimic of your current character.

[Grimlux]

I must be the only coercer who likes Puppetmaster. Of course it needs tweaking.  It would be more useful if the puppets were invulnerable to non direct AOE and scaled about 5x bigger (for novelty). *shrug*

[Rijacki]

<cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>I must be the only coercer who likes Puppetmaster. Of course it needs tweaking.  It would be more useful if the puppets were invulnerable to non direct AOE and scaled about 5x bigger (for novelty). *shrug*</blockquote>I like Puppetmaster.. to a point. I like their size, it's a nice comedy touch, especially when my "mini" puppet (I have mine named mini) version of the stone thingies in Throne Room of Tunare are bigger than the barbarian tank <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />They're as survivable as other dumbfires, so that's not really all -that- horrible (unless other dumbfires get their survivability improved).  The biggest problem -I- have with them is their damage and the fact there is almost no difference between the apprentice IV, adept I, adept III, and (from what I have read from others) the master I versions.  They need a considerable boost in damage to warrant the length of time it takes to cast them.The only other thing is that they seem to hit less than other dumbfires of their same level.  It would be nice to see that addressed, too.

[wanshu]

Overall ... Wow.  If this doesn't make the class popular, I don't know what it'll take.Specific comments:<span class="postbody">Possession -  Ok for now, but maybe in the future play with the idea of it being a short-lived 'tank-mez' deal. i.e. the mob is forced to fight a figment of it's imagination until it kills it.  It would have utility similar to a stun so perhaps a comparable duration would be appropriate.  Useful for distracting a mob briefly if someone pulls aggro or the tank goes down.Reactives - Yes, very nice.Dehate Line - Brilliant!  I just love this idea.Volatile Magic - Maybe make it a sliding scale - more damage increase as power decreases.  That might work for everyone.Power drains - I like the drains that return power to the group though.  I'd rather than that than damage, just for flexibility.Mana Ward - Very clever idea.  I foresee some tough AA choices.Coercive healing - Actually, this is a very popular spell in it's current form.Tashania - Another excellent change.  It would make it much more group/raid desirable.  Again, tough AA choices ahead.... and a big, final ATTA-BOY for eliminating thoughtstones. !!THANK YOU !Nonce Equitur the ZealousCoercer - Befallen</span>

[ShadowMunkie]

Its only taken 32LU since the last combat changes for you guys to fix the Coercer Class. WOWSpent a year and 3months playing a Coercer from the ground up. Got tired of playing a broken class 3months ago and betrayed, you guys in return go and fix it, makes me a sad burynai. Oh wellz, I'll start over with gathering my coercer masters and betray right as GU45 goes live. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Aeralik, one thing that I would like to ask is please give the coercer's on Test long enough to actually test all the spells, so that you don't have to put 5 hotfixes in right after the GU45 >.>

[Roald]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>coercer balancing will be done SOLELY around the effects of the class in PvP.  </blockquote>rofl, you really think that is even a possibility?

[madha]

<p>Can we also get a name change to our spell procs convulsion on 3 different spells makes it hard to track where ur dps is comming from.  TY</p><p>And still need T8 hate spell and dps mod.</p>

[Rijacki]

<cite>Milambers@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote>coercer balancing will be done SOLELY around the effects of the class in PvP.  </blockquote>rofl, you really think that is even a possibility?</blockquote>There are PvPers who think anything less treats them like second class citizens and any concerns about PvP balancing being applied to PvE means that the amount of money they pay per month is somehow being ignored.

[Aule]

<cite>wanshu wrote:</cite><blockquote><span class="postbody">Volatile Magic - Maybe make it a sliding scale - more damage increase as power decreases.  That might work for everyone.</span></blockquote><p>The only problem with this idea is that it then incentivises low pow again, which was a point that they were specifically trying to get away from. </p><p>I'm partial to the proposed change, I just hope it doesn't go down TOO far.</p>

[Lleinen]

<p>Keep 25% and fix our epic to not return so much powerorJust keep the 25% dmg at 100% or belowAny hit to VM will be considered a nerf, the only nice thing is that we can actually equpt our epic</p><p><i><b>from here i got a little rambling, but the above is basically what this below says....</b></i> </p><p>Right, it just needs to be a +% dmg at 100% power...thats the only change you can do or you are promoting less power for more damage.  If I had to Id stay under 20% if it'd mean more DPS, I just hope it doesnt come to that.I mean, honestly, I dont see why not just keep the 25% boost, we were staying fine under 30% power anyway, this just makes it "easier" and more efficient...but I wouldnt want to see it drop below 20% if it came to it.But having any kind of power % required would be pointless and right back to what he is trying to get away from.  Any kind of hit to VM in the dmg dept is considered a nerf, simply because like I said above maintaining power at a certain % isnt difficult for lvl 80 chanters.  Yes, its nice we can use our epic instead of something else finally...and still get some benefit from it.  </p>

[Illine]

the changes on VM would not be a nerf, I don't see it that way, as long as they do it right.right now as coercers, our role is to help others with mana, but being under 30% mana unables me to feed others properly, to use channel propelly and for the ones who got the mythic, they can't use both VM AND the mana feed.why not make .. hum 25% more damage if above 70% mana? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />after for the power drain issue ... just see it that way : who needs to power drain a dead mob? If he dies quickly, plus with our stuns daze and stiffle and some dps of another class, mobs can die quite quickly. I'd rather see them dead than oom, because even oom, they keep casting sometimes ...

[PatcoDiMolla]

Idea for Voalite magic. its can be a good solution if VA effect working as give damage bonus basic of drained power of mobs. If we want this the enchanter need to get long duration group power draining ability with % of mob power-which is growing exponential on time no cast power utility(or else) and casting power utility(or else)terminate effect and make extra damage on mobs based on drained power. or need a finishing abilty to make damage based on drained power wich can be solo or encounter damage example casting no time instantwhen the spell in on  all of your spell which target  enemy has a power draining ability which is based on your spell power cost duration 30 sec draining power every 3 sec drained power is growing with still drained power from mobs in this fight when this spell terminated encounter mobs get damage which is x%of still drained power or can be another finalizing when drained power is chanelled group,raidwide if u using channel when the spell effect working. Sorry about spelling.

[Rarlin]

Please DO the change to VM so there will be a lot less crying for a "fix" on our Epic.  I WANT the extra power returned by the epic so that I can Mana Ward (assuming this change makes it live) and get some power back.  The proposed changes make the Epic MORE appealing.

[Jeepned2]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>LU45 will see some significant changes to the coercer class.  You guys appear far behind on dps especially compared to your illusionist counterparts so its time for some changes.  These changes are preliminary and subject to change of course before going to test or while on test.Possession - You guys dislike it and I think I dislike it even more.  So this spell is getting a big change.  Instead of temporarily controlling a creature, it will keep with the possession theme by creating an essence of the creature that is a controllable pet.  It basically turns into an always on pseudo charm pet.  This pet won't be able to zone or anything but you can at least use it in dungeons with groups or raids.  Reactives - These will be more oriented to players triggering them rather than having to rely on the npcs to trigger them.  In addition, Cataclysmic mind will get an upgrade and be similar to the illusionist reactive except that it triggers off damaging spells hitting the mob.Dehate Line - If the target of the spell gets aggro they will trigger a hate position loss instead of damage which should be more in line with the use of the spell.Volatile Magic - This will change for all enchanters.  The spell does not play well since I see many of the enchanters just spamming sprint to stay under 30% power.  That really wasn't the intention of the skill at all.  Instead it will be a reduced amount that applies regardless of your current power amount.Power drains - To compensate some for the reduction to Volatile Magic, both enchanter subclasses will be getting their power drains turned into damage.  In their current state these are more useful for their control effects rather than the actual power drains.  After the changes the spells should be a bit more useful.Mana Ward - This will change to be a powerful ward based on the amount of mana the coercer has remaining.  It won't be as powerful as soul ward but it will be similar and thus a lot more useful.Coercive healing - I haven't decided on exact specifics of this but it will see some changes to bring it more in line with illusionist aa lines.Tashania - This will change to be extremely hard to resist and apply to all magical damage types.  This should make it something you use on pull to help land debuffs with the new raid resists.<span style="color: #ffff00;">Feel free to post comments below. I will be reviewing them over time and as you react to them on test.  As always make sure your feedback is constructive since that helps me the most.  Also please keep the discussion coercer/enchanter oriented so that things are easier for me to find without having to read through off topic posts.</span></blockquote><p>Ok, I've always known and always admitted that we are a complaining group of folks. And for a long time for good reasons. But here Aeralik is finally addressing a large number of our issues and has asked us for input on the changes he is proposing.</p><p>Overall I just a little disappointed in my fellow Coercers on this post who immediately when off topic to complain about stuff that wasn't brought up in the OP. After years of waiting for Devs to fix us, when he finally shows up and says here's the fixes I'm looking at but need your input, what does he get instead?  Whining about puppetmaster, charm and a host of other stuff that are not even mentioned in his post. Not to mention all the "hangeroners" who come from other classes that have nothing to do with these changes. "grats Coercers, now can you come look at my class?" No, go post on your own class forums and wait a couple of years like we have. Illusionist are welcome on this since it does directly effect them. </p><p>I personally think this post has gotten so out of hand and off topic that it has become useless for the Dev who asked for out help. There is some great input here, but it is so mixed in with the other stuff that it will, I fear, become lost. Sad.</p><p>Yes, I know there are other spells that need looked at, other abilities too. I also know that there are several great ideas for additional changes and upgratdes out there. But for now we are dealing with the changes that are coming in LU45, let's try to stick to them for now. Many are giving the idea that "oh, great changes, but we want more NOW". Some are even given the feeling that if they don't fix everything that we asked for that somehow the dev is screwing us over. I for one am very happy that a large number of our issues are being addressed and although I have concerns about a few of them, I would like to see how exactly they effect me before I start complaining how they are going to be messed up. </p><p>As for the VM change, I'm not sure if I like it or not yet. I know that in it's current form, I can not use my Epic and cast mana flow without losing my VM bonus. But I like getting the 60% mana back, Very handy in a group or raid where I've just died and need some power quickly, get rezz, cast mana flow, and I'm good to go quickly. How is possession going to work? Not sure until I see it. I'm not going to guess what is good or bad about it until I do see it. I just know is that Aeralik is taking a spell that I almost never use and is trying to make it usefull again.</p><p>So the bottom line is that I'm asking that the post try to get back to and stay on topic. We have been finally given a chance to help make some much needed changes to our class. Let's not [Removed for Content] this one away.</p>

[skidmark]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>LU45 will see some significant changes to the coercer class.  You guys appear far behind on dps especially compared to your illusionist counterparts so its time for some changes.  These changes are preliminary and subject to change of course before going to test or while on test.Possession - You guys dislike it and I think I dislike it even more.  So this spell is getting a big change.  Instead of temporarily controlling a creature, it will keep with the possession theme by creating an essence of the creature that is a controllable pet.  It basically turns into an always on pseudo charm pet.  This pet won't be able to zone or anything but you can at least use it in dungeons with groups or raids.  Reactives - These will be more oriented to players triggering them rather than having to rely on the npcs to trigger them.  In addition, Cataclysmic mind will get an upgrade and be similar to the illusionist reactive except that it triggers off damaging spells hitting the mob.Dehate Line - If the target of the spell gets aggro they will trigger a hate position loss instead of damage which should be more in line with the use of the spell.Volatile Magic - This will change for all enchanters.  The spell does not play well since I see many of the enchanters just spamming sprint to stay under 30% power.  That really wasn't the intention of the skill at all.  Instead it will be a reduced amount that applies regardless of your current power amount.Power drains - To compensate some for the reduction to Volatile Magic, both enchanter subclasses will be getting their power drains turned into damage.  In their current state these are more useful for their control effects rather than the actual power drains.  After the changes the spells should be a bit more useful.Mana Ward - This will change to be a powerful ward based on the amount of mana the coercer has remaining.  It won't be as powerful as soul ward but it will be similar and thus a lot more useful.Coercive healing - I haven't decided on exact specifics of this but it will see some changes to bring it more in line with illusionist aa lines.Tashania - This will change to be extremely hard to resist and apply to all magical damage types.  This should make it something you use on pull to help land debuffs with the new raid resists.Feel free to post comments below. I will be reviewing them over time and as you react to them on test.  As always make sure your feedback is constructive since that helps me the most.  Also please keep the discussion coercer/enchanter oriented so that things are easier for me to find without having to read through off topic posts.</blockquote>Power Drains - What if you made the Cataclysmic Mind line proc off of drains as well as usage, wouldn't it help both?  Change it from a number of procs per cast to just proc'ing during its duration since it uses power the whole time it is maintained.

[Aurumn]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>...Reactives - These will be more oriented to players triggering them rather than having to rely on the npcs to trigger them.  In addition, Cataclysmic mind will get an upgrade and be similar to the illusionist reactive except that it triggers off damaging spells hitting the mob.Dehate Line - If the target of the spell gets aggro they will trigger a hate position loss instead of damage which should be more in line with the use of the spell.Coercive healing - I haven't decided on exact specifics of this but it will see some changes to bring it more in line with illusionist aa lines.Tashania - This will change to be extremely hard to resist and apply to all magical damage types.  This should make it something you use on pull to help land debuffs with the new raid resists....</blockquote><p>A few topics I wanted to comment on above. </p><p>Reactives: I love the idea of PC triggered reactive, rather than NPC triggered for Auspex at the least. This way I can stun a mob to keep it from slamming the tank and when the tank starts wailing on the mob it'll get burned by the reactive... excellent. I'm a bit more reserved about Spell Lash/whip though. It seems to do quite a lot of damage and mainly when the mob sends out a massive spell/aoe. Would it be possible for them to proc off of successful npc hits <b>and</b> incoming PC damage? Not sure how much sense that makes. :-/</p><p>Dehate Line: Excellent. I often wondered why a dehate buff would make you tick off the mob more (by hitting it) if it managed to come after you. seemed kind of counter intuitive. The threat position drop would be lovely.</p><p>Coercive Healing: I looked over the Illy AA Tree to try to figure out what you were aiming at here. It looks like they get plenty of attack/casting speed buffs. That sort of kills my first thought of a boost to casting speed for the targeted priest (those big templar heals and shammy wards take a while). To keep things along the coercer theme, how about: </p><ul><li>Reduced power cost for the target priest. You can't cast faster, but it costs you less to go for those big heals and you can spam the smaller ones more... or toss in some more dps/cures. </li><li>A cure effect tagged onto the heals of the targeted priest. This could add a cure arcane or "Freedom of Action" proc or effect to their heals... maybe on a % chance basis. Not having to spam cures on the tank might be useful for conserving power.  Having that hit on a group heal could be pretty sweet I would think. Maybe with a coercer in a group that instance where the priests have to spam cures (Was is CoA or something like that?) would be slightly less annoying. </li></ul><p>Tashania: I'm very glad to see this getting attention. I'd love to burn points in debuffs, but I never bothered because I figured the other end abilities would be more useful. With resists being so tough these days it's a very welcome change. Now it might actually make it into the rotation. </p>

[Aurumn]

<p>*EEP! Double post ftl*  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/499fd50bc713bfcdf2ab5a23c00c2d62.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[CtrlF]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>CtrlFrk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Whatever happens to the Coercer, I would hope that PVP has nothing to do with anything to do on PVE servers. </blockquote><p>Exactly! Because we all know that the PvE players' dollars are each worth more than the PvP players' dollars.</p><p>Hmm .. wait .. maybe I got that wrong. I think my $15/month is the same as your $15/month. Actually .. yeah .. I'm pretty sure we pay the same amount!</p></blockquote>CtrlFrk, No one said PvP should be second-class citizens or that PvP concerns for the changes shouldn't be addressed.  BUT, I am 100% positive Praetorate's concern (and the concern of many other coercers as well) is that coercer balancing will be done SOLELY around the effects of the class in PvP.  We have already had PvP specific changes also be applied to the PvE servers even when included in patch notes as being for PvP only (i.e. the drastic reduction in damage for Kunark charmed pets).  Just as you, and other PvPers, don't want changes solely for PvE reasons to drastically change a class or mechanic in PvP, why can't the PvEers have a similar concern without you (or other PvPers) denigrating any concern but your own? Why should PvE concerns be treated as less important than PvP concerns?  Why should PvE be balanced around how things work in PvP?</blockquote><p>I don't believe that anything has been said by SOE to suggest that any of this is being done for PvP Coercers. Also, I don't think that any PvP Coercer has ask that anything be done specifically for PvP.</p><p>I think that what PvP Coercers want is to be <i>considered</i> while the changes are being made .. that's it. As a Raiding Coercer on a PvP server, I am very happy that something is being done. I know that any change will make me more valuable while raiding. However, I not only would like to become better at defending myself in PvP, but more importantly I don't want to become less effective at doing so due to any changes.</p>

[Rijacki]

<cite>CtrlFrk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>CtrlFrk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>Whatever happens to the Coercer, I would hope that PVP has nothing to do with anything to do on PVE servers. </blockquote><p>Exactly! Because we all know that the PvE players' dollars are each worth more than the PvP players' dollars.</p><p>Hmm .. wait .. maybe I got that wrong. I think my $15/month is the same as your $15/month. Actually .. yeah .. I'm pretty sure we pay the same amount!</p></blockquote>CtrlFrk, No one said PvP should be second-class citizens or that PvP concerns for the changes shouldn't be addressed.  BUT, I am 100% positive Praetorate's concern (and the concern of many other coercers as well) is that coercer balancing will be done SOLELY around the effects of the class in PvP.  We have already had PvP specific changes also be applied to the PvE servers even when included in patch notes as being for PvP only (i.e. the drastic reduction in damage for Kunark charmed pets).  Just as you, and other PvPers, don't want changes solely for PvE reasons to drastically change a class or mechanic in PvP, why can't the PvEers have a similar concern without you (or other PvPers) denigrating any concern but your own? Why should PvE concerns be treated as less important than PvP concerns?  Why should PvE be balanced around how things work in PvP?</blockquote><p>I don't believe that anything has been said by SOE to suggest that any of this is being done for PvP Coercers. Also, I don't think that any PvP Coercer has ask that anything be done specifically for PvP.</p><p>I think that what PvP Coercers want is to be <i>considered</i> while the changes are being made .. that's it. As a Raiding Coercer on a PvP server, I am very happy that something is being done. I know that any change will make me more valuable while raiding. However, I not only would like to become better at defending myself in PvP, but more importantly I don't want to become less effective at doing so due to any changes.</p></blockquote>I fully agree with you.  I don't want changes that are specifically for PvE to affect PvP viability nor do I want  changes to improve PvE viability to be scraped wholesale because of their effect in PvP.Supposedly they can seperate PvP and PvE effects and have different values and effects in each arena.  However, you do have to remember that the recent negative changes to coercer in PvE (for example, the Kunark charm nerf) in the past couple years have been specifically noted -by the devs or test notes- as changed for PvP so I have my doubts.

[Lodur]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Volatile Magic - This will change for all enchanters.  The spell does not play well since I see many of the enchanters just spamming sprint to stay under 30% power.  That really wasn't the intention of the skill at all.  Instead it will be a reduced amount that applies regardless of your current power amount.</blockquote>I play an illusionist.  I understand how the under 30% power doesn't play well with coercers, but I find the power management needed for VM actually makes enchanters interesting and fun to play.  Removing the restrictions is gonna make playing then more more like every other caster.Why not consider some other restriction that still requires us to manage our power pool but works better with everyone.  Make us stay at the high power instead of low power perhaps.  Maybe make it so damage_bonus=25% * percent_of_full_power.  So the more power we have the higher our damage bonus is..??

[Darkflame2]

<p>Volatile Magic -  25% to base damage     ...I would just make this simple.</p><p>-=============</p><p>Also the tread of mobs immune to all CC effect from start and not even allowing us to hit them and then grant them immunity really makes the class less utility.</p>

[Aule]

<p>Would be nice if the mobs that are just 100% immune to our control spells instead got to enjoy the same partial immunity that epic x4's have. </p>

[Regholdain]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>LU45 will see some significant changes to the coercer class.  You guys appear far behind on dps especially compared to your illusionist counterparts so its time for some changes.  These changes are preliminary and subject to change of course before going to test or while on test.Possession - You guys dislike it and I think I dislike it even more.  So this spell is getting a big change.  Instead of temporarily controlling a creature, it will keep with the possession theme by creating an essence of the creature that is a controllable pet.  It basically turns into an always on pseudo charm pet.  This pet won't be able to zone or anything but you can at least use it in dungeons with groups or raids.  <span style="color: #00ccff;">   <b>The way I understand this is the mob is made into a controllable pet, permanent while in the zone.  Sounds like a massive and awesome upgrade in the progression of Charm.  Woot!  What will happen when possession is cancelled?  Does the pet depop or revert to the original mob and have to be killed, similar to when a charm breaks?</b></span></p><b></b><p>Reactives - These will be more oriented to players triggering them rather than having to rely on the npcs to trigger them.  In addition, Cataclysmic mind will get an upgrade and be similar to the illusionist reactive except that it triggers off damaging spells hitting the mob.   <b><span style="color: #00ccff;">While I understand the change to our reactives is geared to increase our lacking dps and also to make the reactive more potent on a stunned mob, the reliance on PCs to trigger the damage seems to go counter to the perceived role of the coercer in this spell.  As the reactives are, the coercer is essentially punishing the mob for deciding to attack.  If instead the spell reacts to damage being done to the mob, it's not the coercer's thought dominating power causing the damage.  I would say change this so that the reactive triggers according to the mob's normal autoattack timer and increase the damage done.  In other words, even if stunned, have the damage go off according to when the target's autoattack timer would have gone off.  In this way the spell behaves according to the mob's thoughts of attacking the players doing it retroactive harm.  You can increase the amount of damage done to boost the effectiveness of the spell, thus increasing the output of the dps.</span></b></p><p><b></b>Dehate Line - If the target of the spell gets aggro they will trigger a hate position loss instead of damage which should be more in line with the use of the spell.  <b><span style="color: #00ccff;">This is a welcome change and sounds right on.</span></b>Volatile Magic - This will change for all enchanters.  The spell does not play well since I see many of the enchanters just spamming sprint to stay under 30% power.  That really wasn't the intention of the skill at all.  Instead it will be a reduced amount that applies regardless of your current power amount.  <b><span style="color: #00ccff;">This sounds good too.</span></b>Power drains - To compensate some for the reduction to Volatile Magic, both enchanter subclasses will be getting their power drains turned into damage.  In their current state these are more useful for their control effects rather than the actual power drains.  After the changes the spells should be a bit more useful.  <b><span style="color: #00ccff;">I really don't think the power drains should be taken out.  Yes, the addition of damage effects to these sounds good, but I still think they should drain power.  However, I think they should be far more effective at draining power so that they can really affect the spells at a mob's disposal.  So I suggest the power drains do a percentage of power drained rather than an actual number, and the current power drain numbers be turned into mental damage as you already suggest.</span></b>Mana Ward - This will change to be a powerful ward based on the amount of mana the coercer has remaining.  It won't be as powerful as soul ward but it will be similar and thus a lot more useful.  <b><span style="color: #00ccff;">Awesome idea.  Love it.</span></b>Coercive healing - I haven't decided on exact specifics of this but it will see some changes to bring it more in line with illusionist aa lines.  <b><span style="color: #00ccff;">Not sure what to comment on this one...  Haven't used CH, so don't really know what sort of re-vamp it needs.</span></b>Tashania - This will change to be extremely hard to resist and apply to all magical damage types.  This should make it something you use on pull to help land debuffs with the new raid resists.  <b><span style="color: #00ccff;">Sounds awesome to me!</span></b>Feel free to post comments below. I will be reviewing them over time and as you react to them on test.  As always make sure your feedback is constructive since that helps me the most.  Also please keep the discussion coercer/enchanter oriented so that things are easier for me to find without having to read through off topic posts.</p></blockquote><p><b><span style="color: #00ccff;">I really just wanted to add my perceived differences between the coercer and the illusionist.   A coercer manuipulates the enemy by dominating and controlling its mind.  An illusionist manipulates the perceptions of the mob, thus shocking it or tricking it or hypnotizing it.  I think whatever changes that are made should fit this.  Reactive damage should be done based on the NPC's "thoughts", not on an outside source, for example.  Most of the changes you suggest fit this theme.  However, the reactives run counter to this if the change is that they cause damage based on damage dealt to the mob.  Agreed, perhaps that's the easiest way to make the changes needed... but I'd like to see the damage dealt being based on something the NPC "tries to do".</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #00ccff;">The enchanters should also always be able to weaken the power of the opponent's mind, aka power drains.  I think the drains should be kept, but damage added, and the power drain changed to a percentage rather than a static number.</span></b></p>

[Belizarius]

<p align="center"><cite><span style="font-size: xx-large;">STOP!</span> </cite></p><p><cite>I was just about to give up trolling through 12 pages of posts when I found this.</cite></p><p><cite></cite></p><p><cite>ghhtwsfqa wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I am going to assume that the intent here is to close the gap between coercers and illusionist by upping coercers to be on par with illusionists rather then bring illusionists down.  At least that was what I gathered from the tone of the message and I know you wouldn't try to deceive your own players by intentionally nerfing a class while making it sound like a good thing they should be celebrating cause that would just be cruel.</p><p>With that said; I, like all other enchanters, find sprinting to be an annoying thing to have to constantly maintain and greatly appreciate the change.  However, I go through this constant annoying thing for a real benefit, 30% increase to base dps is quite a lot.  Reducing it significantly, while making my class less annoying to play, will also make it less enjoyable to play.  Even 15% would be really irritating, that would be the equivalent of losing my highest dps spell.</p><p>Adding damage to other spells that are on slow recast timers isn't going to help.  Even if the damage is more than existing spells such that it is worth cycling it in, unless the damage is on the order of 10k, their slow recast regulates them to 1-2% of total dps each.</p><p>Some suggestions</p><p>Suggest 1:</p><p>VM = 25% increase to base damage but costs makes all spells cost 33% more power, turns power drain component of spells into damage, can be toggled on/off quickly</p><p>This address the PVP and soloing issue by not changing the power drain spells when it is toggled off.Someone suggested a reoccurring 15% power drain, I think this is a horrible idea asA.  15% is 1500 power, that's way too much power to lose on a reoccurring basis.B.  Even if the power cost is dropped to a non arsine amount, we would have to toggle it on/off between fights and this is the same annoying thing sprint is, not as bad, but let's get away from it all together.Sorry for intruding on the coercer forums, it is about time you guys got some loving, but this post effects illusionist as well and I wish you all the best and hope this works out great for us all.</p><p>Cheers</p></blockquote><p>I was going to post almost the identical comments, I agree with everything said above.  As an Illusionist, I agree and support something being done to give coercers a boost.  But I am concerned that Illusionists are getting nerfed in the fallout.</p><p>When VM was introduced, we all complained, said it was stupid, hated it, and were ignored.  As a game mechanic it is a PITA, but now we've all gotten used to it.  Those of us with the skill and motivation use it to maximise our DPS, those who can't be bothered don't.  I don't enjoy the mechanic, but the change proposed will bring the top players down and bring the weaker players up, reducing the contribution of player skill and reducing our maximum potential DPS.  Whatever % you drop off the bonus is how much you will be hurting my parse by - so potentially a major nerf.</p><p>And we as Illusionists are getting absolutely nothing to compensate for that.</p><p>For power drains we only have this as part of our long single target stun, our single target stifle and a power tap that feeds the group.  Apart from the power tap which does get used at times for my group - putting a small amount of damage onto our stun and stifle will do <b><i>nothing</i></b> for our DPS.  These are <b><i>slow cast, long reuse</i></b> spells.  Frankly they would have to become some big-[I cannot control my vocabulary] nukes to be worth using for DPS, bigger than anything we currently have, as stated above.  Otherwise they won't get used when DPSing, because if we <b><i>did</i></b> use them it would <b><i>lower</i></b> our DPS.  And I am sorry to say, this would be obvious if the designers actually played the class.</p><p>If you want to do something to compensate for the loss in VM DPS - then either</p><ul><li>leave the damage bonus alone, just take off the silly power requirement (which is what we wanted in the 1st place), nothing to compensate for!</li><li>tune some of the damage spells that we <b><i>do use</i></b> to have higher damage (eg Beam line) or shorter reuse (prismatic havoc line)</li></ul><p>And for that, we are also losing our power drain mechanic.  Yes it is almost broken and rarely useful in PvE - but I'm happy to leave it in just for the PvPers.  I even use it occasionally in PvE.</p><p>Please go ahead and fix our Coercer cousins.  But try to do it without nerfing the current state of Illusionists - we've already gone through a lot of frustration to get to where we are.</p><p>Edit:</p><p>Making VM a toggle is maybe not a bad idea - but I think 33% power for 25% damage is a little too expensive - it would still amount to a nerf on long fights.</p>

[spriteb]

That sounds amazing! I love playing the coercer and this makes me even more excited to play. I especially like how you are changing the pet ^_^

[cxp1]

<p align="center"><span style="font-size: xx-large;font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><b><i>GO!</i></b></span></p><p align="center"><span style="font-size: x-small;font-family: Arial;">Keep reading this thread!!! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p><p align="left"><span style="font-size: x-small;font-family: Arial;">I have a few issues that will probably come up on test:</span></p><p align="left">Possession:</p><p align="left">This is a huge upgrade for us.  If the pet can do decent dps that is.</p><ol><li><div align="left">Can this be cast in or out of combat?   Will it generate aggro?</div></li><li><div align="left">Does the target mob have to stay alive?</div></li><li><div align="left">Can it break and wipe the raid (group)?</div></li><li><div align="left">If it takes concentration slots can we have the Illu effect on our mythical too <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></div></li><li><div align="left">Range (I posted this before).  This is really important on raids.  Some mobs have a HUGE hitbox.</div></li></ol><p align="left">I would vastly prefer it would not to take concentration slots. You could program it into the Charm line so only one spell could be active.  This would help our utiltiy and let us cast link/dps buffs on more players.</p><p align="left">I'm curious how you will tune the pets generated from epics with possession.  I would prefer something that is in line with all charm mobs.  But how will this work off epic targets?  If it is to powerful everyone will complain... God save us from the nerfbat to come!  If the pets are to weak, then raid leaders won't let us use it in favor or link or other buffs...  Good luck programming this.  But please keep this in mind.</p><p align="left">Volatile Magic</p><p align="left">I think its humorous that Illu are even posting here.  A lot of them betrayed from Coercers.  They KNOW how messed up we are.  Most of us have always asked SOE to not nerf Illu but improve Coercers.  That is what Aeralik is doing.  Please no whining.  Your class is overpowered still so, shhhh.  VM changes make a lot of sense.</p><p align="left"> Control Spells</p><p align="left">I personaly think that very short duration control spells are useless.  The window is so small for them to be of any use on a raid, why bother letting work on epics at all?  Yes you could silence or stun some epics (like in MMIS) but most output from named encounters are scripted now anyway.  Remove control spells from epics and give us dps instead.  Useful control spells against epics would be overpowered anyway.  I hope this does not apply to heroic mobs that are part of epic encounters.</p><p align="left">Ordination</p><p align="left">Can you please change Anesthesia to use Subjugation and Hostage to use Disruption.  This will help on our resists problems.  It is very difficult for mages to get ordination gear/ buffs.</p><p align="left"> Thought Snap</p><p align="left">Should this be resistable?  It is resisted far to much.  It is an emergency spell so casting debuffs to enable TS to land doesn't make sense.</p><p align="left">Anyway just a few more thoughts.  I really look forward to testing this.  </p><p align="left">Vixn</p><p align="left">80 Coercer 140AA </p><p align="left"> </p><p align="left"> </p><p align="left"> </p><p align="left"> </p><p align="left"> </p>

[Aule]

<cite>cxp1 wrote:</cite> <blockquote>Control Spells <p align="left">I personaly think that very short duration control spells are useless.  The window is so small for them to be of any use on a raid, why bother letting work on epics at all?  Yes you could silence or stun some epics (like in MMIS) but most output from named encounters are scripted now anyway.  Remove control spells from epics and give us dps instead.  Useful control spells against epics would be overpowered anyway.  I hope this does not apply to heroic mobs that are part of epic encounters.</p></blockquote><p>I find throwing a stun to be useful when the tank takes a massive hit to give the healers that little extra window to top off the tank.</p><p>Stifle is also useful when two aoe's are lining up close to each other in order to push the second one slightly further back.  The benefit is twofold; to give another extra window for the healers to top off their groups and to give you a chance to try and make sure that spell curse is up for the second aoe.</p><p>Now granted if a mob is simply ignoring the control effects then these spells are useless.  Are there that many fights where the mob casts just fine while stunned or stifled?</p>

[Illine]

a friend of mine is disappointed possession is being changed.He lovec that spell, first to move annoying mobs.Then in groups he possess a +++ mob and hit hard with it and before the spell breaks out, make the mob go far away for not aggroing anything.It's true that I've never really used it, but ... just another charm ... I don't know ... I'd rather have a non permanant pet hitting hard and being close to the original one than just another weak long duration charmed pet.I though a lot about those changes, and possession is the one i'm less thrilled about. The way it was implemented was really fun but there was too much restrictions, like the casting distance, and not being able to use it on in-combat mobs. But if they fixed that it would be fun, in groups and raids where you could possess for a short time a mob, like in protector's realm, you possess one of the 2 heroic mobs. that way you can help killing the other one while this one can't annoy you.those changes are good but I fear the coercer class becomes too easy to play. What I liked was sometimes the difficulty of this class and all the things a coercer can do. Possession WAS a great idea as I repeat but not implemented well <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

[Melodar]

Thank you for finally working on us. The changes you are offering seem great but I do have a question on possession that was asked but never answered.Will we be able to possess a mob and charm one at the same time? While a perma pet is awesome I also use my charm in some CC situations and at times it would be fun to have two pets. Currently Necromancers have this ability so I am assuming that the class that controls the minds of others can also have 2 pets. If not essentially you are making charm a wasted spell but I am hoping that is not the case and 2 pets are possible.While Puppetmaster isn't so hot the main thing i would like to see is the pets larger. What fun is it to get 3 mini clones that are so small you cant see them if you are zoomed out for the bigger picture to CC. A coercer that isn't zoomed out to CC probably isn't so hot at CC.

[Bigmik22]

   Hello   Tbh I havnt been reading the user posts, just the initial dev post. I have a suggestion for enchanter aa's.   A little background:   I am playing an illusionist and have always loved the enchanter class.   There are only two things that annoy me in the gameplay (to the degree that i can relax  while playing my illy, which is not good...) - and i mean really annoy me - are the way the Enchantre AA AGI and INT line las t abilities work:    The perpetuality buff is annoying cause you have to focus constantly to keep it up instead of focus on right spell order or w/e like relaxing. A slight bit of lag and its down to 0... in result more stress than enjoyment. It was more or less ok before it was nerfed, at least then it slowed down gradually and was a lot more casting speed. Maybe it was too good. But what we have now is not only half as effective, its also a lot more annoying <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> If you wanna keep it nerfed, make it a constant castign speed bonus please, so I can actually enjoy the spellcasting itself more... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   The second thing that was annoying was keeping below 30% power, really hate it tbh. I wouldn't do it if people wouldn't require dps as high as it gets. Fortunately, that is being changed.   If those two things were changed into constant effects (without nerfing the effect TOO much, cause then the class would lose most of its effectiveness) it would make the gameplay a LOT more enjoyable. Please consider that, im not talking about more power, im talking about simple gameplay enjoyment - which is something we should get in a game... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Hazimel, 80 illusionist from nagafen

[Maroger]

<p>Thanks Aeralik for finally noticing our plight.</p><p>Here are some other things to think about.</p><p>1. <span style="font-size: x-small;"><b>Allow us to copy our coercers to test when changes go on test </b></span></p><p>2. Allow recast of Charm and our group mez before they wear off.</p><p>3. Since our pets have been nerfed please reduce the amount of concentration required to cast Charm</p><p>4. How about changing Possession to DIRE CHARM - we really need Dire Charm again or putting DIRE CHARM into out AA line. </p><p>5. How about giving us a  Permanent pet like the one we had in EQ1 - but available for lower level coercers. These changes are nice but only for higher levels.</p><p>6. Many of the AA lines are pretty useless if you solo all the time as I do. - both Thought Snap and Coerceive Healing don't so anything for soloers. </p><p>7. In our AA's how about some of the AA's like Psychic Wail increasing the damage -- Considering the AA's for other classes which get a damage increase on the AA all we get is reuse speed and/or casting time. </p>

[OrcinusOrca]

/testcopy add

[Jeepned2]

<cite>Lodur wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Volatile Magic - This will change for all enchanters.  The spell does not play well since I see many of the enchanters just spamming sprint to stay under 30% power.  That really wasn't the intention of the skill at all.  Instead it will be a reduced amount that applies regardless of your current power amount.</blockquote>I play an illusionist.  I understand how the under 30% power doesn't play well with coercers, but I find the power management needed for VM actually<span style="font-size: small;color: #ff6600;"> <span style="font-size: medium;color: #ff6600;">makes enchanters interesting </span></span><span style="font-size: medium;color: #ff6600;">and fun to play</span>.  Removing the restrictions is gonna make playing then more more like every other caster.Why not consider some other restriction that still requires us to manage our power pool but works better with everyone.  Make us stay at the high power instead of low power perhaps.  Maybe make it so damage_bonus=25% * percent_of_full_power.  So the more power we have the higher our damage bonus is..??</blockquote>You mean interesting and fun to play as in not being able to use your Epic? If you mean interesting and fun to play as in that we can't cast Mana Flow since we get back 60% power and kills off our VM every time we do? Do you mean interesting and fun to play as in having to yell at the Mystic every time they want to use thier Epic and push everyone in the group to 100% mana? Ummm, I don't find it very interesting nor do I find it very fun.

[KamidariTuibumbi]

I just saw this in the house of commons dev chat...  Apparently even puppetmaster is getting a little love. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><span style="font-size: small;font-family: Arial,Helvetica;"><span style="color: #800000;"><b>Destinova -</b></span> *xphenix* Of the incoming coercer revamp what are the plans for Puppetmaster (lvl80 RoK new spell) ? <span style="color: #0000a0;"><b>Aeralik -</b></span> Puppetmaster isnt changing much with the coercer changes. I did add another puppet though and gave them some skill bonuses so that they can hit higher level raid mobs a little easier. </span>

[Stretchy]

<p>How about a Pet heal of sorts, Maybe a Summon minion (the call your pet to your side spell), or even a dirrect power heal much like a heal.  MAybe a reactive power heal like Templars get They have the 215% or Targest power used goes to it implieds health.  Why couldn't we get something along that line.  As it stands the best Power heal we have is Channeling, which rawks... if you have the power pool to support it.  Not really a problem when you have 11k power.  Just some thoughts.  But it's really annoying that all other pet classes have some sort of pet heal, and some form of summon minion, and we don't.  I get some pretty slow pets.  Elder Wurms in Skyfire don't run very fast, even in illusion form.  The best trick I have to get my pet to me faster is to hit a griff, Sokokar or Horse and jump off real fast.</p>

[Stretchy]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>LU45 will see some significant changes to the coercer class.  You guys appear far behind on dps especially compared to your illusionist counterparts so its time for some changes.  These changes are preliminary and subject to change of course before going to test or while on test.Possession - You guys dislike it and I think I dislike it even more.  So this spell is getting a big change.  Instead of temporarily controlling a creature, it will keep with the possession theme by creating an essence of the creature that is a controllable pet.  It basically turns into an always on pseudo charm pet.  This pet won't be able to zone or anything but you can at least use it in dungeons with groups or raids.  <b>Reactives</b> - These will be more oriented to players triggering them rather than having to rely on the npcs to trigger them.  In addition, Cataclysmic mind will get an upgrade and be similar to the illusionist reactive except that it triggers off damaging spells hitting the mob.Dehate Line - If the target of the spell gets aggro they will trigger a hate position loss instead of damage which should be more in line with the use of the spell.Volatile Magic - This will change for all enchanters.  The spell does not play well since I see many of the enchanters just spamming sprint to stay under 30% power.  That really wasn't the intention of the skill at all.  Instead it will be a reduced amount that applies regardless of your current power amount.<b>Power drains - To compensate some for the reduction to Volatile Magic, both enchanter subclasses will be getting their power drains turned into damage.  In their current state these are more useful for their control effects rather than the actual power drains.  After the changes the spells should be a bit more useful.</b><b>Mana Ward</b> - This will change to be a powerful ward based on the amount of mana the coercer has remaining.  It won't be as powerful as soul ward but it will be similar and thus a lot more useful.<b>Coercive healing</b> - I haven't decided on exact specifics of this but it will see some changes to bring it more in line with illusionist aa lines.Tashania - This will change to be extremely hard to resist and apply to all magical damage types.  This should make it something you use on pull to help land debuffs with the new raid resists.Feel free to post comments below. I will be reviewing them over time and as you react to them on test.  As always make sure your feedback is constructive since that helps me the most.  Also please keep the discussion coercer/enchanter oriented so that things are easier for me to find without having to read through off topic posts.</blockquote><p>Ok so here I go.  My 2cp.  As I said in my previous post I would REALLY like to see a pet heal put in.  Currently the only heal I have is a mechanics bug.  And if I tell you what it is you'll fix it and I wont have any heal whatsoever.  Second is Summon minion.  Everyone else gets one and our pets can be UBER slow... Where's ours?  Next Either a dirrect or reactive power heal.  After all that's really what we are "Mana batteries".  Hey here's a nevel idea.  Mana Dump -  Allow me to give my mana to a group member.  Healer's OOP, here you go have mine I can generate it faster than you.</p><p>As far as power drains go... unless you make Canibalize thoughts transfer MORE, don't touch it, Leave well enough alone. I will hunt you down and see what I can do with this epic.</p><p> Mana Ward ~ I like the sound of this, cause what is 378 points of damage among lvl 80s. a sliver? a hangnail maybe? Got it, a splitend.</p><p> Coercive healing ~ as useful as it is, is seemingly aimed at Mystics, Defilers, Templars in that order.  I rarely use this skill on Furies.  Wardens get it if they are the only healer.  And tell me how often you actually get a group with an inquisiter</p><p>Not sure what everyone else has to complain about with VM though.  Mostly cause I rarely use it.  I've gotten so used to being the battery/CC for groups and raids that DPS is kind of alien to me.  I know I'm capable of 2500-3500 DPS on a raid and have hit 4357... once.  So that seems ok to me /shrug.  What I can say is that if you want to increase the Coercer DPS Make our spells cast a bit faster.  </p><p>Reactives ~ Which is it, Hostage, that procs when the target causes melee damage?  That's all and good, but isn't the idea to prevent the target from doing melee dmg, hence the need of Mindbend.  There goes any chance of DPS there.  If the mob is stunned it's not procing the spell.  </p><p>Anyway, just wanted to voice my opinions too </p>

[Darkflame2]

<p>Something that should have happened already but I think got missed</p><p>Coercer and Illusionist pets should have the same run speed as the caster so it can keep up.</p><p>Also both Coercer and Illusionist being pet classes also should get Shrink pet spell</p>

[Rythen16]

<p>I know it is tempting to add things on that one wants to get "fixed". But, please, let's not have everything added onto this post but the kitchen sink. Aeralik has put the changes he is looking at in the original post. People started making some comments about those, and Aeralik listened and tweaked the stun/damage thinking to fit how we use the spell. Thank you Aeralik for all that you have done, you have really made me excited to see the changes, which has brought back the excitement of playing. No, I won't use all of the changes. Yes, there are some other spells/issues that coercers have. But, now is not the time to hash these out. We will have to see how these changes affect what we do before we can really see what else could use some tweaking.</p><p>However, the more recent posts on this thread are mostly asking for everything and the kitchen sink. Please look at the original list of spells and have at it. But, all of this wanting more and more and more and more added in is going to shoot us in the foot. </p>

[Daryx]

<cite>wanshu wrote:</cite><blockquote>Overall ... Wow.  If this doesn't make the class popular, I don't know what it'll take.Specific comments:<span class="postbody">Possession -  Ok for now, but maybe in the future play with the idea of it being a short-lived 'tank-mez' deal. i.e. the mob is forced to fight a figment of it's imagination until it kills it.  It would have utility similar to a stun so perhaps a comparable duration would be appropriate.  Useful for distracting a mob briefly if someone pulls aggro or the tank goes down.Reactives - Yes, very nice.Dehate Line - Brilliant!  I just love this idea.Volatile Magic - Maybe make it a sliding scale - more damage increase as power decreases.  That might work for everyone.Power drains - I like the drains that return power to the group though.  I'd rather than that than damage, just for flexibility.Mana Ward - Very clever idea.  I foresee some tough AA choices.Coercive healing - Actually, this is a very popular spell in it's current form.Tashania - Another excellent change.  It would make it much more group/raid desirable.  Again, tough AA choices ahead.... and a big, final ATTA-BOY for eliminating thoughtstones. !!THANK YOU !Nonce Equitur the ZealousCoercer - Befallen</span></blockquote>Warlocks get a spell that drains the mob's power and returns it over time to the group (even after the mob is dead it seems to keep providing power till the timer is up).  I use power drains on my illusionist a lot, and I don't like the idea of completely getting rid of them.  If there is a problem with "mobs continuing to cast" then the problem is with the mobs, NOT with the power drains.  Getting rid of them because "they don't do anything" sounds to me more like ignoring the real problem, mobs that can still cast if out of power.  As other people have pointed out, DOTs will mess with mezzing.  On that point I agree with Wanshu; I like the idea of at least giving the power drain the capability of transferring the power to the group (like warlocks already can do, and they aren't even the "mana" class enchanters are supposed to be).  Aren't enchanters supposed to be masters of mana?  Adding a DOT and removing power control seems the wrong way to go, unless I'm missing something.  I can't speak for the coercer side but this change affects both sides.

[Buggrit]

Wouldn't mind seeing the duration of charm itself increased and the length of time the targets mezzed if it breaks increased toLevel 1 charm = 5 mins level 20= 10 lvl 74 = 35 etcwhy not make lvl 1 30 mins and increase it by 10 mins every new rank ?and the length mezzed = 3 seconds increase it to like 5/6 seconds atleast

[chily]

<p><u>Q: Does the reuse of channel/channeling get fixed to if you spend 5 aa in it?</u>Atm you can spend 5 AA into channeling and reduce the recast from 15 min to 10min. (so far so good)The problem is that in both cases the "fastest" possible reuse is still 7.5 min, but when i put 5 points into it the "fastest" possible reuse should be 5min since it's the new "low" cap for it.I write it because with "Cloak of Unrest", "Pantaloons of Spectral Coercion" and the "Eye of the Siren (Mythical)" i have capped it with 2 of the items allrdy <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>It's mostly annoying because it's near to useless to spend 5 point's aa in to when you can get the same effect if you get Japser Cap from trouba.No idea if other spells have this "problem" too.</p>

[Illine]

<cite>Sidara@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wouldn't mind seeing the duration of charm itself increased and the length of time the targets mezzed if it breaks increased toLevel 1 charm = 5 mins level 20= 10 lvl 74 = 35 etcwhy not make lvl 1 30 mins and increase it by 10 mins every new rank ?and the length mezzed = 3 seconds increase it to like 5/6 seconds atleast </blockquote><p>I don't remember in which LU it was, but it's back during KoS ... they've nerfed all CC spells and  in the same time made enchanter cc spells work on epics.</p><p>the nerfed they did was to decrease their duration. mezz, stun, stiffle, root. because it was too easy to perma stun an heroic mob with the good classes and the good timers.</p><p>so don't hope any spell duration increase. And anyway this post is not about that. Talk about the incoming changes, not he one you want. try to focus ... if you want something else, make a new post. They won't just change everything and if they stick to want they say it's already great !!</p>

[Chalkydri]

Honestly I'm quite happy with the Coercer class as is. Getting Possession taken out is kind of a kick in the nuts for me as it is my favorite spell. I love possessing a mob, running over to another mob, canceling the buff and watching them fight and kill each other without myself getting aggro after one dies. Easy way to clear out a zone. Could we possibly keep possession as maybe one of our "fun spells?" It's not the experienced players fault that people don't know how to utilize this spell. I use it 20+ times a day.Another thing regarding PvP. Coercer vs Ranger is broke as hell. First off Hostage never procs on any of the rangers ranged attacks. Not to mention its kinda BS when we get 2 shotted by just a double attack. (Im wearing Di'Zok level 77 gear and a few other level 80 pieces along with dispersion gear) Pure auto attack no combat arts and our reactives don't touch them... think the programming of this needs to be looked into. Despotic Mind works fine but Hostage is broke like no other.EDIT: My coercer is Level 80, haven't updated my signature in over a year since thats about how long ago it was since I've posted.

[Nor]

<cite>Shadowlings@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Something that should have happened already but I think got missed</p><p>Coercer and Illusionist pets should have the same run speed as the caster so it can keep up.</p><p>Also both Coercer and Illusionist being pet classes also should get Shrink pet spell</p></blockquote>With a few bugged exceptions, illusion ratonga is decent for shrinking a pet.  Of course, on some mobs it actually increases the size by about 500 times.  Illusion ratonga is about the only useful "fun" spell coercers get.  The force xxx player/mob not only is never used, it rarely works (gets resisted).  Sure would love some sparklies, or a new illusion or two.

[Dojac]

Aeralik is still looking at this thread so my post here doesn't go ignored.  Well I'm an Illy on vox so I hope to bring something of a different perspective to this  thread.  I'm going to do my best to stay on topic here with Aeralik's original posts.  The first issue I'd like to address is the whole power drain vs. damage bit.  PvE: great move!  PvP: horrible move!  I would love to see the addition of damage in PvE only but power drains in PvP are too [Removed for Content] valuable.  It is true that power drains in PvE are almost useless as most mobs basically auto attack and do not cast a heck of alot (and if they do cast they cast without using power).   I ask you here and now while you are making these changes not to ignore the PvP aspects of the game.  Enchanters are in serious need of love when it comes to PvP.  I realize it is not appropriate to bring them up here but I ask you to think about them.  I would also ask you to take a look at the enchanter tree while you're at it.  Specifically the Sta line and the deaggro buff.  It'd be nice to help aggro control if that was castable raidwide and did not affect the hate of a mob towards fighters.  Can't tell you the number of times I've accidentally deaggroed the tank because he got aggro just as I cast that spell.

[Darkflame2]

<cite>Noruh wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Shadowlings@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Something that should have happened already but I think got missed</p><p>Coercer and Illusionist pets should have the same run speed as the caster so it can keep up.</p><p>Also both Coercer and Illusionist being pet classes also should get Shrink pet spell</p></blockquote>With a few bugged exceptions, illusion ratonga is decent for shrinking a pet.  Of course, on some mobs it actually increases the size by about 500 times.  Illusion ratonga is about the only useful "fun" spell coercers get.  The force xxx player/mob not only is never used, it rarely works (gets resisted).  Sure would love some sparklies, or a new illusion or two.</blockquote><p>This is kinda more of a reminder that Enchanters even though to a lesser degree are Pet classes and the mentioned fixes were reinstalled for the pet classes to help fix issues. Unfortunately this are kinda still issues for us enchanter. Again to a lesser degree but none the less issues.</p><p>Also as far as the kitchen sink comment. I am as I am sure others are trying to be thorough as possible because this chance to get the class fix has been Long waited and it may not come again</p>

[GrlGmr]

Please please please can we get something so that we can step away from the computer for a minute and not have to worry about charm breaking while we're gone? It sucks getting up to go to the bathroom or answer the door and coming back to find your toon taking a dirt nap because charm picked the perfect moment to bite you in the butt.

[Ran]

release your pet for this time perhaps? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Rijacki]

<cite>Sziroten@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote>release your pet for this time perhaps? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>When you release it, you have to kill it or it will try to kill you.Basically, right now the only way a coercer can take a -safe- bio break, answer the door, catch a boiling pot on the stove, etc, is to /camp, not /afk like any other player.  Then, when you get back you have to return to the location you got your pet (could be half a zone away) in order to charm it again.If there was a known time charm would not break, like the first 1/3 of the duration, one could release and renew charm, dash to do what is needed, and come back to a pet and not a dirt nap.

[Alfgand]

<cite>Sinningia@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Please please please can we get something so that we can step away from the computer for a minute and not have to worry about charm breaking while we're gone? It sucks getting up to go to the bathroom or answer the door and coming back to find your toon taking a dirt nap because charm picked the perfect moment to bite you in the butt.</blockquote><p>Bah, betray to an Illusionist if you want to play it safe. The flexability of Charm is balanced by risk. A Coercer thrives on the risk.  Love it or leave it. </p><p>Who wants the same old boring copy of yourself pet that sits there and eats out of the palm of your hand. I want a pet that is fighting my control and ready to kill me in an instant should I wavier.</p>

[Grimlux]

<p>Meh. Ive never had problems with Charm breaking my toilet paper pets ever. If I had to go afk I just killed my pet real fast or use one of the posts to release my pet. BTW... dont release heroics at a post, those poor afk folks... lol</p>

[Kostarsus]

<p>Hi,</p><p>first I have to say, I'm an illusionist and it is fine, that you want to balance the coercer and the illusionist.</p><p>Some changes affect the illusionist, too. So I want to give my comments at this point.</p><p>Dehate Line: I think you mean the Sta-AA-Line. Its fine that you can now decrease the hate position instead of damage. But in this contest, can you please fix the empathic touch for all members in raid? This would be more useful, because you must react very fast with this in many situations, and if you must first the character, it often to late to react. If this is a raid wide spell, you can cast it over the mob. I think this would save a lots of lives, especially in raid.</p><p>Volatile magic: I think it's fine as it is. You must spend a lot of points to get the last upgrade and than it's a little tricky to play your character. Don't degrade the character-skill again and dont decrease the damage you make with this upgrade. In instances many people don't fake their mana, because the mobs are so fast down, that it doesn't matter, if you make 25% more damage, or not. And on raids, it is a little tricky to play but this is a nice feature, I think. Instead to stay only behind, press the buttons, until the mob is down. I know some wizards that dislike their character now, because it is too monotonous to play it. Don't make the same error for illusionists and coercers.</p><p>Power drains: It is fine, that you think that a power drain is ineffective and you are right. But ask for the reasons, why this is ineffective and is never used again. I think the basic idea is a good one. But you don't have any advantages by this. In the past, long, long, ago you could drain the mana of the mob quite fast. This was very nice, because the mobs weren't scripted, too. So you could prohibit the use of special attacks and spells. But today, the mobs have a lot of mana and the manadrain is a wit. If you need 20 or more spells to drain a heroic mob, the mob is faster down than you drained the mana. Better we don't speak about epic mobs in this contest <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. In the past it was possible to drain a epic mob, too to prohibit its special attacks. In this time these spells are used quite often and it was funny. Second many mobs are scripted. They use their spells even if they have no mana anymore. Correct these points and manadrain is more attractive. If this is a dmg-spell, too, I don't know I would use these spells more often than now, because I have a spell-circle to cast the spells, and there is not often time to insert them in the circle.</p><p>I think this are all points that affect illusionists, too. So I'm at the end of my comment.</p><p>Bye Kostarsus</p>

[Darkc]

<p>Sorry to go off topic... but to Kostarsus.  I just make a macro with Empathic Touch and make a Sorcerer / Brig / Ranger, etc. my target.  Then I just make it part of my casting order to keep Perpetuality up.  That way that member gets continuous "aggro reduction".  It amount really isn't large enough to matter if the person does get aggro.  The key is get make sure they don't get it in the first place.  </p><p>Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled program!  </p>

[Tannin]

<p>Make tash the Debilitate equivalent of a magic debuff, that would instantly make the coercer a MUCH more viable caster group member instead of MT or nothing.</p><p><img src="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/signature?characterId=379770107" alt="" width="490" height="163" border="0" /></p>

[Sonorod]

<cite>Kostarsus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Dehate Line: I think you mean the Sta-AA-Line. Its fine that you can now decrease the hate position instead of damage. But in this contest, can you please fix the empathic touch for all members in raid? This would be more useful, because you must react very fast with this in many situations, and if you must first the character, it often to late to react. If this is a raid wide spell, you can cast it over the mob. I think this would save a lots of lives, especially in raid.</p></blockquote><p>I'm pretty sure he means the coercer Dehate line (Peaceful Link for example) it is the coercer version of Tandem but reduces overall aggro generation instead of dehate proc.  Also our damage from this line only occurs when spell damage is taken by the target, and even then it's very minimal.</p><p> I think the whole STA line works just fine with macros.</p>

[Sigunn]

<p>Thank you Aeralik for finally giving us some attention.</p><p>(Btw that wasnt me in Brasse's comic.. I am not blue... although I wish it was me)</p>

[Kage8]

<p>Ok im a total noob when it comes to coercers. I have a 70 Illusionist and might think of betraying.</p><p>What i want to know is with the new possesion thingy will you be able to have 2 pets at once?</p>

[Illine]

<cite>Kostarsus wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>Volatile magic: I think it's fine as it is. You must spend a lot of points to get the last upgrade and than it's a little tricky to play your character. Don't degrade the character-skill again and dont decrease the damage you make with this upgrade. In instances many people don't fake their mana, because the mobs are so fast down, that it doesn't matter, if you make 25% more damage, or not. And on raids, it is a little tricky to play but this is a nice feature, I think. Instead to stay only behind, press the buttons, until the mob is down. I know some wizards that dislike their character now, because it is too monotonous to play it. Don't make the same error for illusionists and coercers.</p></blockquote><p>I aggree with you. I don't want our class to become monotonous. having to stay under 30% mana is fun to do damage. BUT it also sucks for coercers, because we can't use some spells because of that, neither can we use our mysthical weapon.</p><p>I mean, if you use transfert, whether you get too much mana from the others, whether it's useless because you need to feed the healers of your group, but kind of pointless without mana.</p><p>2nd point, it's hard to feed someone when below 30%. In a long fight I usually stay under 10%, And sometimes I have to slow down my casting coz I'm too low on mana. so, another thing we (illu and coercer here) can't do anymore and that was a thing I liked. helping healers with mana.</p><p>3rd point, our mysthical gives us back 60% mana when using it. Does this mean we can't dps?</p><p>Think of it, they had to do something, let VM that way and change our epic or the opposite. They chose the other one coz for them VM wasn't supposed to be played that way. I'd personnally prefer to see a change in our eoic, but well, they fix it one way or another. VM change will have impacts on both coercer and illu, but that way we'll be able to fit our role again. </p>

[Illine]

<cite>Kage848 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok im a total noob when it comes to coercers. I have a 70 Illusionist and might think of betraying.</p><p>What i want to know is with the new possesion thingy will you be able to have 2 pets at once?</p></blockquote>we don't know either

[Rarlin]

<cite>Kage848 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok im a total noob when it comes to coercers. I have a 70 Illusionist and might think of betraying.</p><p>What i want to know is with the new possesion thingy will you be able to have 2 pets at once?</p></blockquote><p>I don't  know how to put this as my signature, but I would if I knew how as this is a day for all Coercers to remember!  Yes, let this day go down in history as the day that an illusionist actually considered betraying to the Coercer class!  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Regarding 2 pets:</p><p>We can already have 2 pets at the same time if you follow Cazic-Thule and my suspicision is that we will be able to have two pets at the same time (the reason that we recently received a PET NERF).  Yes, with TWO pets we MIGHT be slightly more powerful than the illusionist's one pet, but also remember that one of our pets is unstable and always carries the ability to kill us or the group off IF we actually used it.  </p><p>Note: this makes the big assumption that the talk actually makes it to test, and that the test actually makes it to live.  I realize how cool this sounds initially, but really we're just getting back to a pre-pet-nerf state imo with this change so it's not as "earth shattering" as people are making it sound.  (Please don't get me wrong, the proposed changes are great and I can't wait to see them).</p><p>Regarding PvPers:</p><p>Guys, remember that the spells on PvP have two seperate meanings right?  So all you need to do to not tick off the rest of us who recieved the pet nerf on non-PvP servers as a direct result of PvP is to ask that the PvP portions of the spells retain their current state and that the PvE portions change.</p><p><span style="font-size: medium;"><b>Now a quick note for Dev:</b></span></p><p>One hope that I personally have regarding the changes is that I hope that we can also see a change that would make us a fitting substitute for the DPS groups.  Right now, I would say that we are better fit for a tank group (which is fine) but an illusionist can still be strongly desired in the tank group on a raid.  However, a DPS group just gripes when a Coercer has to be placed in it when there are no illusionists around.  As a matter of fact, a Coercer is the least desired class for a DPS group.  This leads me to...</p><p>My suggestion for a change in Coersive Healing: Change the name to Coersive Touch and have it add a base amount to everything (maybe directly tied to the level of the Coercer so it's not too power too early).  So something like:</p><p>Coercsive Touch (formerly Coersive Healing):</p><ul><li>Buffs the ENTIRE group (yeah, maybe this is a bit much to ask, but you can tell me if it's overpowered)</li><li>Adds +80 to all healing spells in group (A point for each level or some formula based off level if this is too powerful or too weak)</li><li>Adds +80 to all combat arts in group (Same discolsure as above)</li><li>Adds +80 to all spell damage in group (Same discolsure as above)</li></ul><p>This would make it so it's useful in the MT group and the healers still enjoy a buff, but if we're stuck in a DPS group, the DPSers still have something to enjoy (granted, not as cool as the illusionist's buff, but it's a substitute).  And even the MT/OT would get a little benefit from it.</p><p>Hope this helps as a suggestion that you were looking for for Coersive Healing</p><p>Edit: Incresed Font size so as Devs are reading through the thread they see this isn't just another talking post with no ideas.</p>

[pebyr]

all these proposed changes are nice, and what was listed by the op, will go long for making the class less frustrating to play.  The one thing I would most like to add is to simply extend the range on enraging demeanor and impetus.  In a raid situation when I die, and have to rebuff the tank, running into the potential ae when i am still suffering rez sickness, and may still be in the process of being healed, is not good.  10 meters?  Please make these two spells so that I dont have to run into the death zone just to rebuff the tank, please.

[zuzer]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>LU45 will see some significant changes to the coercer class.  You guys appear far behind on dps especially compared to your illusionist counterparts so its time for some changes.  These changes are preliminary and subject to change of course before going to test or while on test.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Glad to hear we are getting some changes!! I have already copied my character to test, thanks for listening to the community.</span>Possession - You guys dislike it and I think I dislike it even more.  So this spell is getting a big change.  Instead of temporarily controlling a creature, it will keep with the possession theme by creating an essence of the creature that is a controllable pet.  It basically turns into an always on pseudo charm pet.  This pet won't be able to zone or anything but you can at least use it in dungeons with groups or raids.  </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">This is one of the changes I am looking forward to the most! Currently as it is possession is pretty useless. The big question here is if we will be able to have two pets at once. I don't think this would be over powering at all because we still can't use charm in groups or on raids, so the only time it could possibly be overpowering is solo and even then I don't think it is because not everyone has master charm,  and if you don't it's basically useless too.</span>Reactives - These will be more oriented to players triggering them rather than having to rely on the npcs to trigger them.  In addition, Cataclysmic mind will get an upgrade and be similar to the illusionist reactive except that it triggers off damaging spells hitting the mob.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Personally I don't have a problem with the way reactives work now - I just wish that mobs would use more mana and that the Auspex line did more damage. However, I think the changes your proposing would work as well and am not opposed to them. </span>Dehate Line - If the target of the spell gets aggro they will trigger a hate position loss instead of damage which should be more in line with the use of the spell.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Sounds good.</span>Volatile Magic - This will change for all enchanters.  The spell does not play well since I see many of the enchanters just spamming sprint to stay under 30% power.  That really wasn't the intention of the skill at all.  Instead it will be a reduced amount that applies regardless of your current power amount.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">This is a good change as well. I know a lot of people (illu) are complaining about this one but from what you have said Aeralik it sounds like what they are doing is basically a hack and wasn't intended, so it should be changed. <cite>       </cite></span>Power drains - To compensate some for the reduction to Volatile Magic, both enchanter subclasses will be getting their power drains turned into damage.  In their current state these are more useful for their control effects rather than the actual power drains.  After the changes the spells should be a bit more useful.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">I like this change too, just make sure to put the damage before the stun - we don't want to stun them and then have the damage on the spell break the stun.</span> </p><p>Mana Ward - This will change to be a powerful ward based on the amount of mana the coercer has remaining.  It won't be as powerful as soul ward but it will be similar and thus a lot more useful. </p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Sounds good.</span> </p><p>Coercive healing - I haven't decided on exact specifics of this but it will see some changes to bring it more in line with illusionist aa lines.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Can't wait to see what you come up with.</span>Tashania - This will change to be extremely hard to resist and apply to all magical damage types.  This should make it something you use on pull to help land debuffs with the new raid resists.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Would be nice to see a duration increase as well.</span>Feel free to post comments below. I will be reviewing them over time and as you react to them on test.  As always make sure your feedback is constructive since that helps me the most.  Also please keep the discussion coercer/enchanter oriented so that things are easier for me to find without having to read through off topic posts.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Overall the changes sound good to me, can't wait to see how they are implemented!</span></p></blockquote>

[Rijacki]

Because I want to make sure I have my most current-est gear at the time, I am waiting to do /testcopy for when the changes actually go to Test <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />BTW, for those doing a copy, make at least one character on the Test PvP server so the character list has something in it.  You -may- need to make one for the list to refresh and show your copy, too.  BUT, the character count you have for TEST is 100% separate from your Live server count.  So you can have max characters on Live and still get some on Test <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Wizairde]

<p>To those 2-3 saying to leave VM alone because 'its fun/a challenge'</p><p>I just have to ask - what is fun about clicking sprint constantly? Another poster pointed out great points in that it defeats the epic and mystics and a few other things.</p><p>There's no fun in button mashing the same button over and over. So, yes please fix VM (there's been a couple of great suggestions that don't involve just a pure damage nerf) and I won't send you my bill for a new mouse and keyboard from the OCD clicking. </p>

[Grimlux]

<cite>Wizairde wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>To those 2-3 saying to leave VM alone because 'its fun/a challenge'</p><p>I just have to ask - what is fun about clicking sprint constantly? Another poster pointed out great points in that it defeats the epic and mystics and a few other things.</p><p>There's no fun in button mashing the same button over and over. So, yes please fix VM (there's been a couple of great suggestions that don't involve just a pure damage nerf) and I won't send you my bill for a new mouse and keyboard from the OCD clicking. </p></blockquote>Whats funny is the people who say they want a challenge.. as if being a coercer and everything about them currently isnt challenging enough... lol

[Ibunubi]

<cite>Rarlin wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>My suggestion for a change in Coersive Healing: Change the name to Coersive Touch and have it add a base amount to everything (maybe directly tied to the level of the Coercer so it's not too power too early).  So something like:</p><p>Coercsive Touch (formerly Coersive Healing):</p><ul><li>Buffs the ENTIRE group (yeah, maybe this is a bit much to ask, but you can tell me if it's overpowered)</li><li>Adds +80 to all healing spells in group (A point for each level or some formula based off level if this is too powerful or too weak)</li><li>Adds +80 to all combat arts in group (Same discolsure as above)</li><li>Adds +80 to all spell damage in group (Same discolsure as above)</li></ul><p>This would make it so it's useful in the MT group and the healers still enjoy a buff, but if we're stuck in a DPS group, the DPSers still have something to enjoy (granted, not as cool as the illusionist's buff, but it's a substitute).  And even the MT/OT would get a little benefit from it.</p></blockquote>No thanks. I would rather have Coercive Healing and the chance for it to proc a group buff and/or extra bonuses for the priest.

[Rijacki]

<cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wizairde wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>To those 2-3 saying to leave VM alone because 'its fun/a challenge'</p><p>I just have to ask - what is fun about clicking sprint constantly? Another poster pointed out great points in that it defeats the epic and mystics and a few other things.</p><p>There's no fun in button mashing the same button over and over. So, yes please fix VM (there's been a couple of great suggestions that don't involve just a pure damage nerf) and I won't send you my bill for a new mouse and keyboard from the OCD clicking. </p></blockquote>Whats funny is the people who say they want a challenge.. as if being a coercer and everything about them currently isnt challenging enough... lol</blockquote>It's the illusionists who don't have as hard a time getting their power to hover that low who don't want ti changed.  It's not coercers.

[Antryg Mistrose]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wizairde wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>To those 2-3 saying to leave VM alone because 'its fun/a challenge'</p><p>I just have to ask - what is fun about clicking sprint constantly? Another poster pointed out great points in that it defeats the epic and mystics and a few other things.</p><p>There's no fun in button mashing the same button over and over. So, yes please fix VM (there's been a couple of great suggestions that don't involve just a pure damage nerf) and I won't send you my bill for a new mouse and keyboard from the OCD clicking.</p></blockquote>Whats funny is the people who say they want a challenge.. as if being a coercer and everything about them currently isnt challenging enough... lol</blockquote>It's the illusionists who don't have as hard a time getting their power to hover that low who don't want ti changed.  It's not coercers.</blockquote>Its the illusionists (and I'd say the majority not 2-3) who fail to see why a coercer fix requires an illusionist DPS nerf - Aerelik had stated that our dps was "about where we want it to be" which from personal experience seems right - below sorcerers/summoners/rogues/predators and occasionally brawlers unless there was a difference in gear/skill/group buffs.I personally find volatile magic a bit painful, but unlike perpetuality it is unaffected by ping (Australia), and the only differences between coercers and illusionists in difficulty is channel/channelling for the 99% who don't have a mythic.  Its simply that illusionists had the capability to do more damage so gained more from it and really have no choice but to practice it.These changes btw are going to put coercer soloing furher ahead of illusionists.  Group/raid remains to be seen.

[Wildmi]

<p>An idea to make us differ from our Illu counterparts is maybe to make our DPS line a Spell/Heal crit chance, something that will make us needed on raids. </p><p>Since Illu's have Haste that takes ore of class's that bash/poke things, we could take care of the casters.</p><p> But was just a thought, I get left out of raids due to Illu's Haste/DPS etc. and Swashy/[Removed for Content] Hate transfer so there wasnt much need for coercer. Please help us get back in raids.</p>

[McBenzos]

Hey so Aer, if you're going to turn Coercers into Illusionists with having their reactives proc like ours, what's the point of us even being on a raid anymore?  I betrayed my Coercer because of this long overdue change, but now I'm going to have more of a reason to play a coercer than ever?  I seriously hope that Coercers will not be comparable to an Illus for parsing dmg, they have far too much more power utility.  You all can say I'm just complaining, but I've been on both sides of the fence, and unless Illus are going up with Coercers, I'll probably betray; again..I already was parsing 2500 in EoF without a troub, on mobs with the tank sitting at 100% with wards almost the whole fight.  Given a fight with tons of aoes, a troub, maybe even a wiz or inq; I was parsing like an Illus.  So if the coercers are getting buffed up so much to be on par with Illus, then what are we gaining?Mind you if you change our pet to do dmg on its spells instead of power draining with their CC effects I'll <3 you forever and this rant will be in the grave.  But seriously though, I betrayed my coercer because I wanted to be 100% dps and 80% utility, not 100% utility and 50% dps (because of all the limited situations, mind you this was PRE RoK.)  If Illus are going to become the new Warlock and be useless in comparison to a Wizard on a ZW, then I guess I AD3'd all the way and got my epic for nothing eh?*EDIT* For the above poster who says these changes affect the soloing coercer mostly, you are dead wrong my friend.  This affects raids and raids only.  These changes will literally determine if I betray or not if Coercers get a mega boost instead of an equalization.  And no you ENCHANTERS of the ENCHANTER community should NOT see us as subclass DPS.  Get the hell over it and start casting more!  We are dpsers that can buff, yes we cannot do as much dps as a Wizard or a Warlock flat out, but they can't give a group 20% more dps overall.  We should not be there to be buffbots, WE ARE NOT BARDS.Omg then this guy right above me.. Have you ever looked at Illusionist buffs man?  You honestly think that +Haste; which is usually ALWAYS near 80% self buffed by almost every single melee class, is worth more to a raid than a <b>48,</b> I'll repeat that, <span style="font-size: x-large;"><b>48%</b> chance to proc FREE damage</span>?  Well sir, no it's not.  Decreasing the casters' threat a whole 14% Decreased Hate more (Don't forget troubadors give -36% hate gain and the cap is 50%!) would DEFINATELY, not, increase their dps; thus being a complete waste on raids.  Ask a ranger what they'd rather have, haste or DPS mod, unless they suck they'll want +dps.  But of course +25% double attack outweighs that dps because, oh my! that's more dps than either +200 haste or +200 dps!Coercers are for Scout/Tank groups, Illus go with troubs.  We have more hostile spells to cast, we can keep perp going longer with <b>damage</b> spells, and benefit <b>mages </b>better.  Maybe you guys should actually do some research as to what Illusionists do before you go giving Aer horrible ideas like these.<span style="font-size: x-large;">Flash of Brilliance - +204 Int +75 to </span><b><span style="font-size: x-large;">ALL CASTING SKILLS</span>, </b>I don't see any +melee skills there.. maybe I'm mistaken?<span style="font-size: x-large;">Savante - ~40% less used power</span>, Gee um.. since when do Scouts have a problem with power?  Um WTB Power poisons for scouts that suck.<b>ILLUMINATE - </b><span style="font-size: x-large;"><b>50% LESS RESISABILITY FOR ALL SPELLS CAST FOR TWENTY SECONDS.  </b><span style="font-size: x-small;">How the hell does that help melee?<span style="font-size: small;">Please go to eq2flames if you want real input on what changes should be made Aer.  Don't get it from the carebears that haven't even raided KoS/EoF or even bothered to learn anything about their Class of mage.Holy hell.. zuzer are you serious dude?  A hack?  How is using sprint, which costs power, a hack to get your power down?  Are you mentally challenged or just stupid?  Let me ask you this smart guy, when you're killing Venril and you might get the mana gain, do you want to not be able to get your power down unless using abilities (which will shoot your power up and wipe the raid; but you knew that right because you actually raid?  Oh no that's right you have probably never even raided Labs in KoS and are calling Enchanters who have been using the VM line to its INTENDED use for raising damage, hackers.)  You know what guys, let's just remove power from the game entirely, zuzer is right; Sprint is a hack!  It's a dirty exploiting hack to get your power down, and it even coincides with scripts the developers made for certain encounters.NERF SPRINT '08!</span></span></span>

[chily]

<cite>Charming@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: x-small;">Flash of Brilliance - +204 Int +75 to <b>ALL CASTING SKILLS</b></span></blockquote><p>that is rather a fluff buff now i think. when i guess that illu's can get as much int as coercer can get then it is. Atm i have 1157 int self buffed +204 from that spell and +100 int from Potm would mean that flash is useless because i'm over the int with potm allrdy. The only nice thing of that spell is casting skills for mezzing i think hehe./cheer trouba</p>

[Illine]

<p>raid will still use illus coz they are a good and usefull class.</p><p>Coercers are here to help the tank (normally, but now they prefer using a swash, coz they aggro transfert better) and we have mostly defensive spell.</p><p>Illus are more offensive and there are a lot of things they do we don't. Like tandem, it's a great spell to improve dps, improve casting speed and reuse (great for any class), int + res buff ... you're always in the caster group. We are useless there. Our dehate spell is less usefull than yours if there is a trouba, and doesn't help much with dps. haste = dps buff for a caster, we can't improve spell resistability neither intelligence. So stop saying you have no utility. You are more versatile than coercers.</p><p>With your mysthical, you can be fin in a melee dps group, with increase casting time still, melee double attack and group haste. You pet can help dps, it may die quickly with AOEs that's true but it can help at the begining., you also have a buff that can help keeping aggro, so wherever you go you'll always be able to help.</p><p>coercers on the other hand, have better mana regen, an aggro transfert for tanks, we have a spell that obliges the mob to target a tank, so to be usefull in raid we must be in the MT group. we have coercive healing that can only be used or healers, fortunately, there's always one, but there are big differences on each healer you put them. our mana ward right now is sometimes usefull but not that much, unless there is a mana AOE ... not often, so in the overall our buff are more oriented toward the main tank group. we don't help casters, we don't help much scouts. last, our mysthical gives us a buff to put on MT and gives us a group mana feed. the mana feed is good because we can use it in any group, but this kills VM.</p><p>so tell me who has more utility? it depends in which group we are! now if you can have a little more dps (it's not that I want dps, but this game is only about that, our cc spells are almost useless in raids and groups) so except our mana regen and some buffs, we have to dps .. EQ2 enchanteurs are different from EQ1 enchanteurs.</p><p> no one said to sprint was a hack or an exploit or a cheat, they just said for the devs .. VM wasn't supposed to be used that way ... if you're not happy, I'm sorry you take it that way, but instead of complaining and whining, try to fing a solution for VM to stay that way and for coercer spells to be still usefull ( channel and mana feed mainly) without unabling VM.</p><p>don't worry, illus will always be in raid, they'll always do dps and now maybe coercers will find back the place they should be.</p>

[TonlinT]

<cite>Svenghali@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sinningia@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote> </blockquote><p>Bah, betray to an Illusionist if you want to play it safe. The flexability of Charm is balanced by risk. A Coercer thrives on the risk.  Love it or leave it. </p><p>Who wants the same old boring copy of yourself pet that sits there and eats out of the palm of your hand. I want a pet that is fighting my control and ready to kill me in an instant should I wavier.</p></blockquote>I agree 100%. Charm is fine IMHO. I even quite enjoy charm breaking in the middle of a fight in group instances. It's one of the few times I get to show off exactly what we're about, and draw a few gasps of admiration from people who have no clue what we are capable of (still at level 80!). Puppet Master & Possession are the two biggest disappointments for me.

[Nor]

<cite>Charming@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey so Aer, if you're going to turn Coercers into Illusionists with having their reactives proc like ours, what's the point of us even being on a raid anymore?  I betrayed my Coercer because of this long overdue change, but now I'm going to have more of a reason to play a coercer than ever?  I seriously hope that Coercers will not be comparable to an Illus for parsing dmg, they have far too much more power utility.  You all can say I'm just complaining, but I've been on both sides of the fence, and unless Illus are going up with Coercers, I'll probably betray; again..I already was parsing 2500 in EoF without a troub, on mobs with the tank sitting at 100% with wards almost the whole fight.  Given a fight with tons of aoes, a troub, maybe even a wiz or inq; I was parsing like an Illus.  So if the coercers are getting buffed up so much to be on par with Illus, then what are we gaining?Mind you if you change our pet to do dmg on its spells instead of power draining with their CC effects I'll <3 you forever and this rant will be in the grave.  But seriously though, I betrayed my coercer because I wanted to be 100% dps and 80% utility, not 100% utility and 50% dps (because of all the limited situations, mind you this was PRE RoK.)  If Illus are going to become the new Warlock and be useless in comparison to a Wizard on a ZW, then I guess I AD3'd all the way and got my epic for nothing eh?*EDIT* For the above poster who says these changes affect the soloing coercer mostly, you are dead wrong my friend.  This affects raids and raids only.  These changes will literally determine if I betray or not if Coercers get a mega boost instead of an equalization.  And no you ENCHANTERS of the ENCHANTER community should NOT see us as subclass DPS.  Get the hell over it and start casting more!  We are dpsers that can buff, yes we cannot do as much dps as a Wizard or a Warlock flat out, but they can't give a group 20% more dps overall.  We should not be there to be buffbots, WE ARE NOT BARDS.Omg then this guy right above me.. Have you ever looked at Illusionist buffs man?  You honestly think that +Haste; which is usually ALWAYS near 80% self buffed by almost every single melee class, is worth more to a raid than a <b>48,</b> I'll repeat that, <span style="font-size: x-large;"><b>48%</b> chance to proc FREE damage</span>?  Well sir, no it's not.  Decreasing the casters' threat a whole 14% Decreased Hate more (Don't forget troubadors give -36% hate gain and the cap is 50%!) would DEFINATELY, not, increase their dps; thus being a complete waste on raids.  Ask a ranger what they'd rather have, haste or DPS mod, unless they suck they'll want +dps.  But of course +25% double attack outweighs that dps because, oh my! that's more dps than either +200 haste or +200 dps!Coercers are for Scout/Tank groups, Illus go with troubs.  We have more hostile spells to cast, we can keep perp going longer with <b>damage</b> spells, and benefit <b>mages </b>better.  Maybe you guys should actually do some research as to what Illusionists do before you go giving Aer horrible ideas like these.<span style="font-size: x-large;">Flash of Brilliance - +204 Int +75 to </span><b><span style="font-size: x-large;">ALL CASTING SKILLS</span>, </b>I don't see any +melee skills there.. maybe I'm mistaken?<span style="font-size: x-large;">Savante - ~40% less used power</span>, Gee um.. since when do Scouts have a problem with power?  Um WTB Power poisons for scouts that suck.<b>ILLUMINATE - </b><span style="font-size: x-large;"><b>50% LESS RESISABILITY FOR ALL SPELLS CAST FOR TWENTY SECONDS.  </b><span style="font-size: x-small;">How the hell does that help melee?<span style="font-size: small;">Please go to eq2flames if you want real input on what changes should be made Aer.  Don't get it from the carebears that haven't even raided KoS/EoF or even bothered to learn anything about their Class of mage.Holy hell.. zuzer are you serious dude?  A hack?  How is using sprint, which costs power, a hack to get your power down?  Are you mentally challenged or just stupid?  Let me ask you this smart guy, when you're killing Venril and you might get the mana gain, do you want to not be able to get your power down unless using abilities (which will shoot your power up and wipe the raid; but you knew that right because you actually raid?  Oh no that's right you have probably never even raided Labs in KoS and are calling Enchanters who have been using the VM line to its INTENDED use for raising damage, hackers.)  You know what guys, let's just remove power from the game entirely, zuzer is right; Sprint is a hack!  It's a dirty exploiting hack to get your power down, and it even coincides with scripts the developers made for certain encounters.NERF SPRINT '08!</span></span></span></blockquote><p>I'm sure you are very knowledgeable about the status of the enchanter class, especially as you have seen both sides of the fence, so to speak.  However, in my humble opinion, repeating the mantra of, "You're all idiots, morons and hacks".  Isn't going to help solve or resolve any of the issues.</p><p>I'm guessing that offering constructive comments and explaining why other individual suggestions wouldn't work or be the best idea, would work a lot better.  Coming from an individual with management experience, I can tell you that if I see something like that in the "suggestion box" I immediately disregard everything written, and chalk it up to a disgruntled individual - no matter how "right" what is being said is.  There is usually a better way to go about things, then just slamming people.  I usually find that finding the problem is the first and easiest 20% of correcting a problem.</p><p>For those that follow up with comments, please...for the sake of all that is holy, let's keep this in a constructive and helpful tone.  The fact that SOE has admitted a problem is leaps and bounds above their usual stance of, "Everything is working as intended"...</p>

[zuzer]

<cite>Charming@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey so Aer, if you're going to turn Coercers into Illusionists with having their reactives proc like ours, what's the point of us even being on a raid anymore?  I betrayed my Coercer because of this long overdue change, but now I'm going to have more of a reason to play a coercer than ever?  I seriously hope that Coercers will not be comparable to an Illus for parsing dmg, they have far too much more power utility.  You all can say I'm just complaining, but I've been on both sides of the fence, and unless Illus are going up with Coercers, I'll probably betray; again..<span style="color: #ff0000;">There are many more differences between the two than just the way our reactives proc. The reason you would still bring an illu along on a raid is so that you can make use of all their buffs. As it stands right now there is no real reason to bring coercer along. Aer's goal is not to make coercers better than illu so that illu no longer gets a raid spot, but to bring coercers inline with illu so that we BOTH have a spot on a raid. If you want to betray again that is your choice but if the changes are done right (and I hope they are) there will be no reason for you to betray again as your illu will still be as viable on a raid as a coercer and vice versa.</span>I already was parsing 2500 in EoF without a troub, on mobs with the tank sitting at 100% with wards almost the whole fight.  Given a fight with tons of aoes, a troub, maybe even a wiz or inq; I was parsing like an Illus.  So if the coercers are getting buffed up so much to be on par with Illus, then what are we gaining?<span style="color: #ff0000;">Your not gaining anything, and your not supposed to. The whole point in these changes is to make coercers better to be on par with illu, why should you be gaining anything?</span>Mind you if you change our pet to do dmg on its spells instead of power draining with their CC effects I'll <3 you forever and this rant will be in the grave.  But seriously though, I betrayed my coercer because I wanted to be 100% dps and 80% utility, not 100% utility and 50% dps (because of all the limited situations, mind you this was PRE RoK.)  If Illus are going to become the new Warlock and be useless in comparison to a Wizard on a ZW, then I guess I AD3'd all the way and got my epic for nothing eh?<span style="color: #ff0000;">Why do you think these proposed changes to COERCERS are going to make illu so useless? Are you really that reliant on VM?</span>*EDIT* For the above poster who says these changes affect the soloing coercer mostly, you are dead wrong my friend.  This affects raids and raids only.  These changes will literally determine if I betray or not if Coercers get a mega boost instead of an equalization.  And no you ENCHANTERS of the ENCHANTER community should NOT see us as subclass DPS.  Get the hell over it and start casting more!  We are dpsers that can buff, yes we cannot do as much dps as a Wizard or a Warlock flat out, but they can't give a group 20% more dps overall.  We should not be there to be buffbots, WE ARE NOT BARDS.<span style="color: #ff0000;">No one said that these changes affect the soloing coercer the most. What I said was that the possession change would not be overpowering with the exception of possibly be overpowering in a solo situation as it may give us two pets. </span>Omg then this guy right above me.. Have you ever looked at Illusionist buffs man?  You honestly think that +Haste; which is usually ALWAYS near 80% self buffed by almost every single melee class, is worth more to a raid than a <b>48,</b> I'll repeat that, <span style="font-size: x-large;"><b>48%</b> chance to proc FREE damage</span>?  Well sir, no it's not.  Decreasing the casters' threat a whole 14% Decreased Hate more (Don't forget troubadors give -36% hate gain and the cap is 50%!) would DEFINATELY, not, increase their dps; thus being a complete waste on raids.  Ask a ranger what they'd rather have, haste or DPS mod, unless they suck they'll want +dps.  But of course +25% double attack outweighs that dps because, oh my! that's more dps than either +200 haste or +200 dps!Coercers are for Scout/Tank groups, Illus go with troubs.  We have more hostile spells to cast, we can keep perp going longer with <b>damage</b> spells, and benefit <b>mages </b>better.  Maybe you guys should actually do some research as to what Illusionists do before you go giving Aer horrible ideas like these.<span style="font-size: x-large;">Flash of Brilliance - +204 Int +75 to </span><b><span style="font-size: x-large;">ALL CASTING SKILLS</span>, </b>I don't see any +melee skills there.. maybe I'm mistaken?<span style="font-size: x-large;">Savante - ~40% less used power</span>, Gee um.. since when do Scouts have a problem with power?  Um WTB Power poisons for scouts that suck.<b>ILLUMINATE - </b><span style="font-size: x-large;"><b>50% LESS RESISABILITY FOR ALL SPELLS CAST FOR TWENTY SECONDS.  </b><span style="font-size: x-small;">How the hell does that help melee?<span style="font-size: small;">Please go to eq2flames if you want real input on what changes should be made Aer.  Don't get it from the carebears that haven't even raided KoS/EoF or even bothered to learn anything about their Class of mage.<span style="color: #ff0000;">Are the gigantic letters really necessary?</span>Holy hell.. zuzer are you serious dude?  A hack?  How is using sprint, which costs power, a hack to get your power down?  Are you mentally challenged or just stupid?  Let me ask you this smart guy, when you're killing Venril and you might get the mana gain, do you want to not be able to get your power down unless using abilities (which will shoot your power up and wipe the raid; but you knew that right because you actually raid?  Oh no that's right you have probably never even raided Labs in KoS and are calling Enchanters who have been using the VM line to its INTENDED use for raising damage, hackers.)  You know what guys, let's just remove power from the game entirely, zuzer is right; Sprint is a hack!  It's a dirty exploiting hack to get your power down, and it even coincides with scripts the developers made for certain encounters.NERF SPRINT '08!<span style="color: #ff0000;">VM in it's current form was not meant to be used the way that you guys are using it. Aer said so in his original post (go back and read it again), so if that is the case (and it is) then what else am I supposed to call it besides a hack? Is it better for you if I call it a "work around"? Call it what you like but what you are doing was never intended, bottom line, so it needs to be changed. </span></span></span></span></blockquote>

[Regholdain]

<p>I just wanted to make a couple of points...</p><p>1) The coercer is NOT a pet class.  Some coercer seem to think they are or should be, but they are not.  Charm allows for a temporary pet and I find it 100% more useful soloing or duoing as crowd control than in boosting dps.  We do not have a pet heal or summon because we do not have pets!  There's no need for those things.  Also, to those who have issues with charm, charm is working as intended.  I rarely have had problems when it breaks because I get a half second warning and a short mezz on the charmed mob that allows me to get it under control again.  It has never caused a wipe in a group or given me a bad day soloing.  We are NOT a pet class.  We are crowd control / power drain / and dots.  The class, for the most part imho works as intended.  I do not want a perma-pet like an illusionist.  I play the coercer because it's more fun to charm than to just summon up a pet.  If want a perma-pet I have summoners to choose from.</p><p>2) If raiders weren't so hung up on the All Mighty parse, coercer dps would not be a big deal.  The coercer class doesn't have a permanent pet and is designed to work differently in all respects than the illusionist.  Each class has benefits and drawbacks.  Unfortunately, coercers are typically only used for the MT group and Illusionists elsewhere.  Our raid desirability is less because our crowd control on epic mobs is lessened.  Our class is not meant to be dps.  It is meant to PREVENT NPC dps, and is meant to be a power healer.  In those respects we have tremendous desirability.  No, my coercer is not high enough in level to raid and I've never raided one, but I've talked to a few high-end raiders in some very high-end guilds and most of their comments are that coercers are a must and highly desired at endgame, and that coercer dps can be incredible and is no where near lacking.  So I'm not sure what the problem is there... I have to assume T8 raiders who successfully took down Trakanon recently know what they're talking about.</p><p>3) I think Volatile Magic is a good ability in concept, but it contradicts much of the coercer's abilities.  The coercer is about healing power.  It is much more difficult to fill that roll and keep power below 30% in order to proc VM for a coercer than an illusionist.  I also don't think sprint was inteded to be used to make VM proc more, although there isn't much that could be done to change this.  What I see from illusionists is that they've figured out how to do far more dps than they should by spamming sprint to keep their power down, and that for coercers keeping power down is far more difficult, so they are not as able to do so.  VM should simply work differently.  It needs to be a passive buff that buffs spell casting permanently, or some sort of always on spell damage proc that has a chance of going off with a successful cast.  If this nerfs the current dps output of illusionists, that's only because they are using an ability that is NOT WORKING AS INTENDED.  They should realize, at some point, it was going to be fixed and that point has finally come.</p><p>4) I liked Aer's suggestions to Possession, but not having a coercer of level to use that ability, I really didn't understand it.  After reading some of the later posts referring to it and it's many uses in moving mobs and pitting mobs against each other, it sounds like it's current use is, like the rest of the coercer class, a challenge to use successfully.  I like the sound of the current possession and what it can do.  Perhaps it should simply be made much longer in duration, work while in combat, and be able to cast from further away.  The proposed change sounds good too, but I think it's current state sounds more enjoyable and challenging and less like I have a permanent pet and am only slightly different than an illussionist during that time period.</p><p>5) I'm not sure what should change about coercive healing tbh... In reading this and seeing other high level coercers use it on the healer in my group when I'm tanking on my main it seems extremely useful in its current form.  Maybe Aer's seeking a change because it really doesn't work well for both enchanter classes?</p><p>6) I really, really, really don't want to see the power drains removed from the game.  I'd rather see them be more effective on mobs by basing the drain on a percentage amount rather than a flat numeric rate.  I'd also like for less mobs to cast spells through scripting, and actually have to use more of their power use their spells and combat arts.  That would go a long way to making the power drains useful.  Add damage to the end of the spell to offset the loss of dps proc from VM when it's changed, but keep the power drain component and just tweak it.  It is useful in many cases.  Maybe another way to handle this is to add power distribution to all of the drains so that more of them increase the power of the group and some increase the power of the coercer.  I know we have a couple of spells that do this, but perhaps more should.</p><p>Overall that was it for my comments.  I did have a question, although this probably isn't the place for it.  When a coercer uses a power draining ability, is that counted by a parser as damage dealt to the mob?  It IS damage... just not to health...  Just a thought...</p>

[Sonorod]

<p>Coercers and Illusionist need to work in harmony.</p><a href="http://www.pandora.com/podcast_file...mony_embed.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Enchanter Harmony 101</a> <p>Illusionists should stop raining on our parade. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Grimlux]

<cite>Regholdain wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I just wanted to make a couple of points...</p><p>1) The coercer is NOT a pet class.  Some coercer seem to think they are or should be, but they are not.  Charm allows for a temporary pet and I find it 100% more useful soloing or duoing as crowd control than in boosting dps.  We do not have a pet heal or summon because we do not have pets!  There's no need for those things.  Also, to those who have issues with charm, charm is working as intended.  I rarely have had problems when it breaks because I get a half second warning and a short mezz on the charmed mob that allows me to get it under control again.  It has never caused a wipe in a group or given me a bad day soloing.  We are NOT a pet class.  We are crowd control / power drain / and dots.  The class, for the most part imho works as intended.  I do not want a perma-pet like an illusionist.  I play the coercer because it's more fun to charm than to just summon up a pet.  If want a perma-pet I have summoners to choose from.</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff9933;">You are incorrect. The coercer is a pet class. We can charm at any time. (some mobs restricted) Looks like a pet, smells like a pet, must be a pet! We use our pets differently, there's a difference in that statement. Necro and Conj pets have more utility's but that's only because our Charm pet has been wittled down over the years to now, its current state. Also, Charm is not going away (atleast from what I read) They are giving raider's and dungeon party coercers the option to "Possess" a mob that will probably be crappy, but atleast give us a tiny boost in DPS. This is how I read it.</span></b></p><p>2) If raiders weren't so hung up on the All Mighty parse, coercer dps would not be a big deal.  The coercer class doesn't have a permanent pet and is designed to work differently in all respects than the illusionist.  Each class has benefits and drawbacks.  Unfortunately, coercers are typically only used for the MT group and Illusionists elsewhere.  Our raid desirability is less because our crowd control on epic mobs is lessened.  Our class is not meant to be dps.  It is meant to PREVENT NPC dps, and is meant to be a power healer.  In those respects we have tremendous desirability.  No, my coercer is not high enough in level to raid and I've never raided one, but I've talked to a few high-end raiders in some very high-end guilds and most of their comments are that coercers are a must and highly desired at endgame, and that coercer dps can be incredible and is no where near lacking.  So I'm not sure what the problem is there... I have to assume T8 raiders who successfully took down Trakanon recently know what they're talking about.</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff9933;">I am a raider, I dont care about my parse. Coercer's rarely make a parse list anyways so I fail to understand why you criticize coercer's for being hung up on something as such. I assume you have been playing the Coercer class for quite some time. You haven't!? You must be an expert then! Then you understand that we have 5+ Power drains and to what reason? You also understand that all our damage is reactive to spells and mellee. We have 3 stuns, 4 if you count Mindbend.. You dont see the issue yet? Ok how about this one. Coercer DPS is dependant on the tank in their groups gear. Yes I said it! Our DPS is dependant on how crappy or good our tank is. If the tank is well geared then we will do less damage. I do not know who your friends are you talked to about "Trakanon" raids, but I have Coercer friends who were kindly asked to betray to illusionists because the Coercer simply didn't measure up to the new standards that RoK required. You must'nt rely on what "you hear" or what people talk about. Coercer complaints are already documented using real numbers. We suck right now. Big time.</span></b></p><p>3) I think Volatile Magic is a good ability in concept, but it contradicts much of the coercer's abilities.  The coercer is about healing power.  It is much more difficult to fill that roll and keep power below 30% in order to proc VM for a coercer than an illusionist.  I also don't think sprint was inteded to be used to make VM proc more, although there isn't much that could be done to change this.  What I see from illusionists is that they've figured out how to do far more dps than they should by spamming sprint to keep their power down, and that for coercers keeping power down is far more difficult, so they are not as able to do so.  VM should simply work differently.  It needs to be a passive buff that buffs spell casting permanently, or some sort of always on spell damage proc that has a chance of going off with a successful cast.  If this nerfs the current dps output of illusionists, that's only because they are using an ability that is NOT WORKING AS INTENDED.  They should realize, at some point, it was going to be fixed and that point has finally come.</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff9933;">Agreed. I love how some Illy's are up in arms about VM change. I still have yet to see any of the illusionists I raid with using VM anyways. "VM is a dying breed" says one of my enchanter mates...</span></b></p><p>4) I liked Aer's suggestions to Possession, but not having a coercer of level to use that ability, I really didn't understand it.  After reading some of the later posts referring to it and it's many uses in moving mobs and pitting mobs against each other, it sounds like it's current use is, like the rest of the coercer class, a challenge to use successfully.  I like the sound of the current possession and what it can do.  Perhaps it should simply be made much longer in duration, work while in combat, and be able to cast from further away.  The proposed change sounds good too, but I think it's current state sounds more enjoyable and challenging and less like I have a permanent pet and am only slightly different than an illussionist during that time period.</p><p><span style="color: #ff9933;"><b>There is absolutely nothing challenging about not being able to cast a spell because the mob Aggro's before you can cast it. There is also no challenge in possessing a mob for 20 seconds that will kill you and that mob you tried to kill with no luck. Enjoyable only to masochists.</b></span></p><p>5) I'm not sure what should change about coercive healing tbh... In reading this and seeing other high level coercers use it on the healer in my group when I'm tanking on my main it seems extremely useful in its current form.  Maybe Aer's seeking a change because it really doesn't work well for both enchanter classes?</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff9900;">It doesnt really need to change that much. Currently the best target for CH is Shaman's. I suggested them making it like the Inquisitor Mythical that everytime the healer casts a spell, there is a 25% chance that a 2nd heal will be cast. (not the class heal, but the fast heal or big heal).</span></b></p><p>6) I really, really, really don't want to see the power drains removed from the game.  I'd rather see them be more effective on mobs by basing the drain on a percentage amount rather than a flat numeric rate.  I'd also like for less mobs to cast spells through scripting, and actually have to use more of their power use their spells and combat arts.  That would go a long way to making the power drains useful.  Add damage to the end of the spell to offset the loss of dps proc from VM when it's changed, but keep the power drain component and just tweak it.  It is useful in many cases.  Maybe another way to handle this is to add power distribution to all of the drains so that more of them increase the power of the group and some increase the power of the coercer.  I know we have a couple of spells that do this, but perhaps more should.</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff9900;">Please tell me why you need 5+ Power drains? Unless you play on a pvp server it does NO good tot have that many spells draining only power. Did you get the memo that MOBS dont' use power anymore? Didn't think so.</span></b></p><p>Overall that was it for my comments.  I did have a question, although this probably isn't the place for it.  When a coercer uses a power draining ability, is that counted by a parser as damage dealt to the mob?  It IS damage... just not to health...  Just a thought...</p><b><span style="color: #ff9933;">I still do not understand how you feel you can comment on something you havent experienced. Keep it up kiddo, you'll do well in the corporate world someday though.</span></b></blockquote>

[chily]

<cite>Regholdain wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>3) I think Volatile Magic is a good ability in concept, but it contradicts much of the coercer's abilities.  The coercer is about healing power.  It is much more difficult to fill that roll and keep power below 30% in order to proc VM for a coercer than an illusionist.  I also don't think sprint was inteded to be used to make VM proc more, although there isn't much that could be done to change this.  What I see from illusionists is that they've figured out how to do far more dps than they should by spamming sprint to keep their power down, and that for coercers keeping power down is far more difficult, so they are not as able to do so.  VM should simply work differently.  It needs to be a passive buff that buffs spell casting permanently, or some sort of always on spell damage proc that has a chance of going off with a successful cast.  If this nerfs the current dps output of illusionists, that's only because they are using an ability that is NOT WORKING AS INTENDED.  They should realize, at some point, it was going to be fixed and that point has finally come.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">With power feed waist, epic weapon and so on it's hard every enchanter to keep under 30% power, even harder for the illu if the coercer gives his group a manaflow. Also vm is useless for mobs like Venril. All together the change is very welcome i must say.</span></p><p>5) I'm not sure what should change about coercive healing tbh... In reading this and seeing other high level coercers use it on the healer in my group when I'm tanking on my main it seems extremely useful in its current form.  Maybe Aer's seeking a change because it really doesn't work well for both enchanter classes?</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">CH is bigger then TC but then it's not. I calculated it some where. CH can boost the main heals of 1 healer in the group more then TC can over time. Will be fun to see what it will get <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span></p><p>6) I really, really, really don't want to see the power drains removed from the game.  I'd rather see them be more effective on mobs by basing the drain on a percentage amount rather than a flat numeric rate.  I'd also like for less mobs to cast spells through scripting, and actually have to use more of their power use their spells and combat arts.  That would go a long way to making the power drains useful.  Add damage to the end of the spell to offset the loss of dps proc from VM when it's changed, but keep the power drain component and just tweak it.  It is useful in many cases.  Maybe another way to handle this is to add power distribution to all of the drains so that more of them increase the power of the group and some increase the power of the coercer.  I know we have a couple of spells that do this, but perhaps more should.</p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The problem behind that is, that the most of the mobs use abilities now and not combat arts or spells. That means the don't even need power for the stuff they can hit you with. Damage on termination would mean that there is a chance that a root would break if you stunned and root. That drained power get's converted to power of the group is live allrdy if you use 6 pieces of Mindbending set only for 1 spell but still. I think i never drained a mob out of of power really so far because it's easier to kill the mobs right away, so i wouldn't miss the power drain really. in Addition the powerdrains have a longer time to tick with every level you update it. Level 1 ticks every 1.1 second and the level 79 one every 2.8 seconds, even the stun duration and the amount of power of time goes up.</span></blockquote><span style="color: #ff0000;">my 2cp</span>

[Regholdain]

<cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Regholdain wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I just wanted to make a couple of points...</p><p>1) The coercer is NOT a pet class.  Some coercer seem to think they are or should be, but they are not.  Charm allows for a temporary pet and I find it 100% more useful soloing or duoing as crowd control than in boosting dps.  We do not have a pet heal or summon because we do not have pets!  There's no need for those things.  Also, to those who have issues with charm, charm is working as intended.  I rarely have had problems when it breaks because I get a half second warning and a short mezz on the charmed mob that allows me to get it under control again.  It has never caused a wipe in a group or given me a bad day soloing.  We are NOT a pet class.  We are crowd control / power drain / and dots.  The class, for the most part imho works as intended.  I do not want a perma-pet like an illusionist.  I play the coercer because it's more fun to charm than to just summon up a pet.  If want a perma-pet I have summoners to choose from.</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff9933;">You are incorrect. The coercer is a pet class. We can charm at any time. (some mobs restricted) Looks like a pet, smells like a pet, must be a pet! We use our pets differently, there's a difference in that statement. Necro and Conj pets have more utility's but that's only because our Charm pet has been wittled down over the years to now, its current state. Also, Charm is not going away (atleast from what I read) They are giving raider's and dungeon party coercers the option to "Possess" a mob that will probably be crappy, but atleast give us a tiny boost in DPS. This is how I read it.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #33cc66;">Charm is more useful as a solo cc tool for adds, or for helping to clear, and that's a minimal statement of use. I have found no situation where having a charmed pet was necessary for me to function as a coercer.  Other pet classes NEED their pet.  I would hardly call a conjy or necro's pet "utility".  That's a good bulk of their class's dps. The coercer does not need a pet; charm only gives us a powerful option for cc.  That's the difference I identify when I say we are not a pet class.  How often do you roll with a charmed pet compared to a conjy/necro/illu?  I would be willing to bet hardly at all. And no,  I don't think charm is going away and I never said I wanted it to.  Also, I agree your summation of what to expect from the changes to Possess would be accurate.</span></b></p><p>2) If raiders weren't so hung up on the All Mighty parse, coercer dps would not be a big deal.  The coercer class doesn't have a permanent pet and is designed to work differently in all respects than the illusionist.  Each class has benefits and drawbacks.  Unfortunately, coercers are typically only used for the MT group and Illusionists elsewhere.  Our raid desirability is less because our crowd control on epic mobs is lessened.  Our class is not meant to be dps.  It is meant to PREVENT NPC dps, and is meant to be a power healer.  In those respects we have tremendous desirability.  No, my coercer is not high enough in level to raid and I've never raided one, but I've talked to a few high-end raiders in some very high-end guilds and most of their comments are that coercers are a must and highly desired at endgame, and that coercer dps can be incredible and is no where near lacking.  So I'm not sure what the problem is there... I have to assume T8 raiders who successfully took down Trakanon recently know what they're talking about.</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff9933;">I am a raider, I dont care about my parse. Coercer's rarely make a parse list anyways so I fail to understand why you criticize coercer's for being hung up on something as such. I assume you have been playing the Coercer class for quite some time. You haven't!? You must be an expert then! Then you understand that we have 5+ Power drains and to what reason? You also understand that all our damage is reactive to spells and mellee. We have 3 stuns, 4 if you count Mindbend.. You dont see the issue yet? Ok how about this one. Coercer DPS is dependant on the tank in their groups gear. Yes I said it! Our DPS is dependant on how crappy or good our tank is. If the tank is well geared then we will do less damage. I do not know who your friends are you talked to about "Trakanon" raids, but I have Coercer friends who were kindly asked to betray to illusionists because the Coercer simply didn't measure up to the new standards that RoK required. You must'nt rely on what "you hear" or what people talk about. Coercer complaints are already documented using real numbers. We suck right now. Big time.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #33cc66;">Yes, we have lots of stuns and power drains and our reactives work contradictory to that.  I would like to see the reactives continue to work the way they do, but have the damage proc from the mob's unmodified auto-attack timer.  In this way, it's guaranted to damage them whether stunned or not.  The code could be modified so that the damage proc doesn't break stuns/etc either.  I don't think relying on players to proc the damage is the way to go, though.  That makes the reactive work just like any other class's and hardly keeps with the coercer architype.  It just needs some tweaking to make it work when the mob is stunned.</span></b></p><p>3) I think Volatile Magic is a good ability in concept, but it contradicts much of the coercer's abilities.  The coercer is about healing power.  It is much more difficult to fill that roll and keep power below 30% in order to proc VM for a coercer than an illusionist.  I also don't think sprint was inteded to be used to make VM proc more, although there isn't much that could be done to change this.  What I see from illusionists is that they've figured out how to do far more dps than they should by spamming sprint to keep their power down, and that for coercers keeping power down is far more difficult, so they are not as able to do so.  VM should simply work differently.  It needs to be a passive buff that buffs spell casting permanently, or some sort of always on spell damage proc that has a chance of going off with a successful cast.  If this nerfs the current dps output of illusionists, that's only because they are using an ability that is NOT WORKING AS INTENDED.  They should realize, at some point, it was going to be fixed and that point has finally come.</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff9933;">Agreed. I love how some Illy's are up in arms about VM change. I still have yet to see any of the illusionists I raid with using VM anyways. "VM is a dying breed" says one of my enchanter mates...</span></b></p><p>4) I liked Aer's suggestions to Possession, but not having a coercer of level to use that ability, I really didn't understand it.  After reading some of the later posts referring to it and it's many uses in moving mobs and pitting mobs against each other, it sounds like it's current use is, like the rest of the coercer class, a challenge to use successfully.  I like the sound of the current possession and what it can do.  Perhaps it should simply be made much longer in duration, work while in combat, and be able to cast from further away.  The proposed change sounds good too, but I think it's current state sounds more enjoyable and challenging and less like I have a permanent pet and am only slightly different than an illussionist during that time period.</p><p><span style="color: #ff9933;"><b>There is absolutely nothing challenging about not being able to cast a spell because the mob Aggro's before you can cast it. There is also no challenge in possessing a mob for 20 seconds that will kill you and that mob you tried to kill with no luck. Enjoyable only to masochists.</b></span></p><p><b><span style="color: #33cc66;">Eh, either way the new changes sound good. I just don't want to see an ability that some have figured out how to use and enjoy it nerfed because most anyone else think's it's useless or hasn't figured it out. Of course, on the other hand, if Aer hates it too then it probably isn't as good as the few that say they like it suggest it is.</span></b></p><p>5) I'm not sure what should change about coercive healing tbh... In reading this and seeing other high level coercers use it on the healer in my group when I'm tanking on my main it seems extremely useful in its current form.  Maybe Aer's seeking a change because it really doesn't work well for both enchanter classes?</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff9900;">It doesnt really need to change that much. Currently the best target for CH is Shaman's. I suggested them making it like the Inquisitor Mythical that everytime the healer casts a spell, there is a 25% chance that a 2nd heal will be cast. (not the class heal, but the fast heal or big heal).</span></b></p><p>6) I really, really, really don't want to see the power drains removed from the game.  I'd rather see them be more effective on mobs by basing the drain on a percentage amount rather than a flat numeric rate.  I'd also like for less mobs to cast spells through scripting, and actually have to use more of their power use their spells and combat arts.  That would go a long way to making the power drains useful.  Add damage to the end of the spell to offset the loss of dps proc from VM when it's changed, but keep the power drain component and just tweak it.  It is useful in many cases.  Maybe another way to handle this is to add power distribution to all of the drains so that more of them increase the power of the group and some increase the power of the coercer.  I know we have a couple of spells that do this, but perhaps more should.</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff9900;">Please tell me why you need 5+ Power drains? Unless you play on a pvp server it does NO good tot have that many spells draining only power. Did you get the memo that MOBS dont' use power anymore? Didn't think so.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #33cc66;">That's my point.  Mobs should use power.  The ability of the coercer to drain power should not be removed.  Changing the code to mobs so that they use their power pools is what is needed here.  On the PvP note I don't play PvP, but I still don't like the impact changing reactives and power drains could have on those players.  These two things are a tremendous amount of coercer survivability in PvP.</span></b></p><p>Overall that was it for my comments.  I did have a question, although this probably isn't the place for it.  When a coercer uses a power draining ability, is that counted by a parser as damage dealt to the mob?  It IS damage... just not to health...  Just a thought...</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff9933;">I still do not understand how you feel you can comment on something you havent experienced. Keep it up kiddo, you'll do well in the corporate world someday though.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #33cc66;">I made it clear in my statments that I don't have a high level coercer and don't raid with it. There isn't any need to be a condescending s.o.b. is there?  I do use a parser and do raid on my guard.  I was curious as to whether or not parsers pick up power damage that coercers deal out as damage dealt to the mob.  If so, our dps may be way under par even more than what people currently think because that's not actually damage being done to the mob's health.  That's why I asked the question.  Now, if you're done being condescending, since you raid on your coercer and I don't, why don't you just answer the question constructively?</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #33cc66;">Regardless, I do think adding a damage component to our power drains is a welcome change.  I'm not saying don't do that.  I just don't want to see the power drain itself removed.  I'd rather see mobs use their power pools so that the drains are effective in PvE, than see the power drains removed.</span></b></p></blockquote></blockquote>

[Regholdain]

<cite>Chillispike@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Regholdain wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>3) I think Volatile Magic is a good ability in concept, but it contradicts much of the coercer's abilities.  The coercer is about healing power.  It is much more difficult to fill that roll and keep power below 30% in order to proc VM for a coercer than an illusionist.  I also don't think sprint was inteded to be used to make VM proc more, although there isn't much that could be done to change this.  What I see from illusionists is that they've figured out how to do far more dps than they should by spamming sprint to keep their power down, and that for coercers keeping power down is far more difficult, so they are not as able to do so.  VM should simply work differently.  It needs to be a passive buff that buffs spell casting permanently, or some sort of always on spell damage proc that has a chance of going off with a successful cast.  If this nerfs the current dps output of illusionists, that's only because they are using an ability that is NOT WORKING AS INTENDED.  They should realize, at some point, it was going to be fixed and that point has finally come.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">With power feed waist, epic weapon and so on it's hard every enchanter to keep under 30% power, even harder for the illu if the coercer gives his group a manaflow. Also vm is useless for mobs like Venril. All together the change is very welcome i must say.</span></p><p>5) I'm not sure what should change about coercive healing tbh... In reading this and seeing other high level coercers use it on the healer in my group when I'm tanking on my main it seems extremely useful in its current form.  Maybe Aer's seeking a change because it really doesn't work well for both enchanter classes?</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">CH is bigger then TC but then it's not. I calculated it some where. CH can boost the main heals of 1 healer in the group more then TC can over time. Will be fun to see what it will get <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></span></p><p>6) I really, really, really don't want to see the power drains removed from the game.  I'd rather see them be more effective on mobs by basing the drain on a percentage amount rather than a flat numeric rate.  I'd also like for less mobs to cast spells through scripting, and actually have to use more of their power use their spells and combat arts.  That would go a long way to making the power drains useful.  Add damage to the end of the spell to offset the loss of dps proc from VM when it's changed, but keep the power drain component and just tweak it.  It is useful in many cases.  Maybe another way to handle this is to add power distribution to all of the drains so that more of them increase the power of the group and some increase the power of the coercer.  I know we have a couple of spells that do this, but perhaps more should.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">The problem behind that is, that the most of the mobs use abilities now and not combat arts or spells. That means the don't even need power for the stuff they can hit you with. Damage on termination would mean that there is a chance that a root would break if you stunned and root. That drained power get's converted to power of the group is live allrdy if you use 6 pieces of Mindbending set only for 1 spell but still. I think i never drained a mob out of of power really so far because it's easier to kill the mobs right away, so i wouldn't miss the power drain really. in Addition the powerdrains have a longer time to tick with every level you update it. Level 1 ticks every 1.1 second and the level 79 one every 2.8 seconds, even the stun duration and the amount of power of time goes up.</span></p><p><b><span style="color: #33cc66;">Thank you for making some realyl good points about the power drain.  I'm not familiar with the Mindbending set so it sounds pretty cool.  It is true that most mobs die far faster than draining their power.  It just seems sort of sorry to have a class with power drain abilities that really amount to nothing because mobs don't use power.  They should use power, end of story.  In a long fight, it'd be a good advantage to drain a mob's power providing their abilities required it.  That's a good strategic advantage in my book.  It's too bad it was made so useless in the first place.  I honestly didn't notice the extended tick times as I levelled for the power drains.  Talk about making a nearly useless ability (due to mobs not using power) even more useless by slowing it's proc rate down as you get higher in level.</span></b></p></blockquote><span style="color: #ff0000;">my 2cp</span></blockquote>

[Nor]

<cite>Regholdain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Regholdain wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><b><span style="color: #33cc66;">Regardless, I do think adding a damage component to our power drains is a welcome change.  I'm not saying don't do that.  I just don't want to see the power drain itself removed.  I'd rather see mobs use their power pools so that the drains are effective in PvE, than see the power drains removed.</span></b></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><p>If power drains stay in, it should be percentage based, not number based.  Can you imagine how pathetic power drains against an epicx4 would be?  Quite to the point of...well, pointless really.</p><p>Or change it, like the warlock encounter health/mana debuff that gives a nil crystal - works differently for each type of mob (Normal/Heroic/Epic, etc).</p>

[Regholdain]

<cite>Noruh wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Regholdain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Regholdain wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><b><span style="color: #33cc66;">Regardless, I do think adding a damage component to our power drains is a welcome change.  I'm not saying don't do that.  I just don't want to see the power drain itself removed.  I'd rather see mobs use their power pools so that the drains are effective in PvE, than see the power drains removed.</span></b></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote><p>If power drains stay in, it should be percentage based, not number based.  Can you imagine how pathetic power drains against an epicx4 would be?  Quite to the point of...well, pointless really.</p><p>Or change it, like the warlock encounter health/mana debuff that gives a nil crystal - works differently for each type of mob (Normal/Heroic/Epic, etc).</p></blockquote>Exactly.  I suggested this in one of my first posts and have duplicated the thought on other threads in the Coercer discussion forum.  Make mobs use power and then change the power drain to a percentage base and not a numeric base.

[chily]

<p>Let me ask diff power drain for what? No power = less out going dmg (still autoattack)The spell you use for power drain prevent that all rdy and with some timting on heroic they only can do autoattack or even less for a long in between our stun and stifles.</p><p>Which are the mobs worth to drain power?nameds ! a lot of em are imune to stun/stifle/daze so you can't drain em anyway.</p><p>And that's where the problem with reactive starts. mob does nothing => no dmg from reactive.No matter if you solo or group if you are stunning or not, you have to dps coz the mobs ain't gonna die coz you look at them when you need a update from them.</p>

[Terron]

<cite>Regholdain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Regholdain wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>6) I really, really, really don't want to see the power drains removed from the game.  I'd rather see them be more effective on mobs by basing the drain on a percentage amount rather than a flat numeric rate.  I'd also like for less mobs to cast spells through scripting, and actually have to use more of their power use their spells and combat arts.  That would go a long way to making the power drains useful.  Add damage to the end of the spell to offset the loss of dps proc from VM when it's changed, but keep the power drain component and just tweak it.  It is useful in many cases.  Maybe another way to handle this is to add power distribution to all of the drains so that more of them increase the power of the group and some increase the power of the coercer.  I know we have a couple of spells that do this, but perhaps more should.</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff9900;">Please tell me why you need 5+ Power drains? Unless you play on a pvp server it does NO good tot have that many spells draining only power. Did you get the memo that MOBS dont' use power anymore? Didn't think so.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #33cc66;">That's my point.  Mobs should use power.  The ability of the coercer to drain power should not be removed.  Changing the code to mobs so that they use their power pools is what is needed here.  On the PvP note I don't play PvP, but I still don't like the impact changing reactives and power drains could have on those players.  These two things are a tremendous amount of coercer survivability in PvP.</span></b></p><p>Overall that was it for my comments.  I did have a question, although this probably isn't the place for it.  When a coercer uses a power draining ability, is that counted by a parser as damage dealt to the mob?  It IS damage... just not to health...  Just a thought...</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff9933;">I still do not understand how you feel you can comment on something you havent experienced. Keep it up kiddo, you'll do well in the corporate world someday though.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #33cc66;">I made it clear in my statments that I don't have a high level coercer and don't raid with it. There isn't any need to be a condescending s.o.b. is there?  I do use a parser and do raid on my guard.  I was curious as to whether or not parsers pick up power damage that coercers deal out as damage dealt to the mob.  If so, our dps may be way under par even more than what people currently think because that's not actually damage being done to the mob's health.  That's why I asked the question.  Now, if you're done being condescending, since you raid on your coercer and I don't, why don't you just answer the question constructively?</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #33cc66;">Regardless, I do think adding a damage component to our power drains is a welcome change.  I'm not saying don't do that.  I just don't want to see the power drain itself removed.  I'd rather see mobs use their power pools so that the drains are effective in PvE, than see the power drains removed.</span></b></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>Speaking as an illusionist, I agree with making more mobs use power, and with %age power drains (maybe with lower %ages for heroic and epic mobs).Power drain are a form of control and control is what enchanters should be about.But mobs using power also affects other classes.I tried to solo DFC recently with my 62 fury for the guild xp from completing the HQ.Against the high priest it turned into a typical healer fight  - the first to run out of power lost - thanks to animal form it was not me.Fyst was different. He has a life tap that does not use power which I could not out DPS. Not could he beat my healing, or run me out of power (due to animal form). I eventually got bored and zoned out.

[Nor]

<p>Honestly, percentage based power drains probably don't have to scale to mob type (Heroic versus Epic).</p><p>I'm just going out on a limb here, but a level 80 Heroic ^^^ has less mana than a level 80 x2, which is less than a level 80 x4 mob.  No matter what the percentage is, you'll get diminishing returns on your investment.  A 100 point mana pool seeing a 10% loss will start at 10 mana, then 9, then 8.1, 7.2 etcetera.  Presumably a powerdrain taking a percentage, as it would be considerably more powerful than a number based power drain, would also incur an immunity not unlike the stun immunities on epic mobs.  Level 80 mobs (or whatever level you pick) will have exponentially larger power pools the harder the encounter.  So no matter what the drain is, even if it's a flat 2% drain every 3 seconds the harder the mob, the more mana they will have left once the power drain has reached its max drainage (no need to make it 3% for non-heroics, 2% for heroics and 1% for epic mobs).  Basically, your epic mobs are still going to have such a huge reserve of power, that they will still have mana to cast their spells (assuming they even used power).</p><p>But here is the rub, power drains are only effective if you can drain a mob to zero, making them unable to cast.  What's the point of draining a mob to 50% if they still cast everything, and cast just as frequently as they did when they were at 100%? Can anyone honestly see a point in the game though, where mana was used for ae's/spells/whatever, and power drains were able to drain the heroic/epic/raid encounter to zero, that it would <u>negate</u> the ae/spells on a raid mob?  That would make epic/heroic/normal encounters trivial at best, and I highly doubt that would ever happen.</p>

[zuzer]

<cite>Regholdain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Regholdain wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I just wanted to make a couple of points...</p><p>1) The coercer is NOT a pet class.  Some coercer seem to think they are or should be, but they are not.  Charm allows for a temporary pet and I find it 100% more useful soloing or duoing as crowd control than in boosting dps.  We do not have a pet heal or summon because we do not have pets!  There's no need for those things.  Also, to those who have issues with charm, charm is working as intended.  I rarely have had problems when it breaks because I get a half second warning and a short mezz on the charmed mob that allows me to get it under control again.  It has never caused a wipe in a group or given me a bad day soloing.  We are NOT a pet class.  We are crowd control / power drain / and dots.  The class, for the most part imho works as intended.  I do not want a perma-pet like an illusionist.  I play the coercer because it's more fun to charm than to just summon up a pet.  If want a perma-pet I have summoners to choose from.</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff9933;">You are incorrect. The coercer is a pet class. We can charm at any time. (some mobs restricted) Looks like a pet, smells like a pet, must be a pet! We use our pets differently, there's a difference in that statement. Necro and Conj pets have more utility's but that's only because our Charm pet has been wittled down over the years to now, its current state. Also, Charm is not going away (atleast from what I read) They are giving raider's and dungeon party coercers the option to "Possess" a mob that will probably be crappy, but atleast give us a tiny boost in DPS. This is how I read it.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #33cc66;">Charm is more useful as a solo cc tool for adds, or for helping to clear, and that's a minimal statement of use. I have found no situation where having a charmed pet was necessary for me to function as a coercer.  Other pet classes NEED their pet.  I would hardly call a conjy or necro's pet "utility".  That's a good bulk of their class's dps. The coercer does not need a pet; charm only gives us a powerful option for cc.  That's the difference I identify when I say we are not a pet class.  How often do you roll with a charmed pet compared to a conjy/necro/illu?  I would be willing to bet hardly at all. And no,  I don't think charm is going away and I never said I wanted it to.  Also, I agree your summation of what to expect from the changes to Possess would be accurate.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #33cc66;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">We are meant to use charm as a replacement for a pet, period. Why have a CC spell that has a duration of 35 minutes? What is the point in that? Charm is specifically meant as our replacement for a pet, and might I add I love it exactly the way it is - and I hope they do not change it. You are correct in saying we don't use our "pet" (charm) as much as other classes and the reason for that is because we can't. We can't use charm on most the raids out there or in groups and even if it were a viable option there is no point because it eats 3 con slots.  To remedy the fact that we can't use charm on raids or in group settings it sounds like Aer is changing possession to fill this gap. I just hope that it requires no con slots and can be used solo and that it does at least half the damage a master charm pet would normally do so there is at least a point to using it on raids and groups.</span></span></b></p><p>2) If raiders weren't so hung up on the All Mighty parse, coercer dps would not be a big deal.  The coercer class doesn't have a permanent pet and is designed to work differently in all respects than the illusionist.  Each class has benefits and drawbacks.  Unfortunately, coercers are typically only used for the MT group and Illusionists elsewhere.  Our raid desirability is less because our crowd control on epic mobs is lessened.  Our class is not meant to be dps.  It is meant to PREVENT NPC dps, and is meant to be a power healer.  In those respects we have tremendous desirability.  No, my coercer is not high enough in level to raid and I've never raided one, but I've talked to a few high-end raiders in some very high-end guilds and most of their comments are that coercers are a must and highly desired at endgame, and that coercer dps can be incredible and is no where near lacking.  So I'm not sure what the problem is there... I have to assume T8 raiders who successfully took down Trakanon recently know what they're talking about.</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff9933;">I am a raider, I dont care about my parse. Coercer's rarely make a parse list anyways so I fail to understand why you criticize coercer's for being hung up on something as such. I assume you have been playing the Coercer class for quite some time. You haven't!? You must be an expert then! Then you understand that we have 5+ Power drains and to what reason? You also understand that all our damage is reactive to spells and mellee. We have 3 stuns, 4 if you count Mindbend.. You dont see the issue yet? Ok how about this one. Coercer DPS is dependant on the tank in their groups gear. Yes I said it! Our DPS is dependant on how crappy or good our tank is. If the tank is well geared then we will do less damage. I do not know who your friends are you talked to about "Trakanon" raids, but I have Coercer friends who were kindly asked to betray to illusionists because the Coercer simply didn't measure up to the new standards that RoK required. You must'nt rely on what "you hear" or what people talk about. Coercer complaints are already documented using real numbers. We suck right now. Big time.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #33cc66;">Yes, we have lots of stuns and power drains and our reactives work contradictory to that.  I would like to see the reactives continue to work the way they do, but have the damage proc from the mob's unmodified auto-attack timer.  In this way, it's guaranted to damage them whether stunned or not.  The code could be modified so that the damage proc doesn't break stuns/etc either.  I don't think relying on players to proc the damage is the way to go, though.  That makes the reactive work just like any other class's and hardly keeps with the coercer architype.  It just needs some tweaking to make it work when the mob is stunned.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #33cc66;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">So what is to stop me from chainstunning and only using my reactives to do dmg? The way you describe it I could kill the mob easier than I do now and only have to use about 5-6 spells. </span></span></b></p><p>3) I think Volatile Magic is a good ability in concept, but it contradicts much of the coercer's abilities.  The coercer is about healing power.  It is much more difficult to fill that roll and keep power below 30% in order to proc VM for a coercer than an illusionist.  I also don't think sprint was inteded to be used to make VM proc more, although there isn't much that could be done to change this.  What I see from illusionists is that they've figured out how to do far more dps than they should by spamming sprint to keep their power down, and that for coercers keeping power down is far more difficult, so they are not as able to do so.  VM should simply work differently.  It needs to be a passive buff that buffs spell casting permanently, or some sort of always on spell damage proc that has a chance of going off with a successful cast.  If this nerfs the current dps output of illusionists, that's only because they are using an ability that is NOT WORKING AS INTENDED.  They should realize, at some point, it was going to be fixed and that point has finally come.</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff9933;">Agreed. I love how some Illy's are up in arms about VM change. I still have yet to see any of the illusionists I raid with using VM anyways. "VM is a dying breed" says one of my enchanter mates...</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #ff9933;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">VM is being used in a way it was never intended, I'm glad it's getting fixed.</span></span></b></p><p>4) I liked Aer's suggestions to Possession, but not having a coercer of level to use that ability, I really didn't understand it.  After reading some of the later posts referring to it and it's many uses in moving mobs and pitting mobs against each other, it sounds like it's current use is, like the rest of the coercer class, a challenge to use successfully.  I like the sound of the current possession and what it can do.  Perhaps it should simply be made much longer in duration, work while in combat, and be able to cast from further away.  The proposed change sounds good too, but I think it's current state sounds more enjoyable and challenging and less like I have a permanent pet and am only slightly different than an illussionist during that time period.</p><p><span style="color: #ff9933;"><b>There is absolutely nothing challenging about not being able to cast a spell because the mob Aggro's before you can cast it. There is also no challenge in possessing a mob for 20 seconds that will kill you and that mob you tried to kill with no luck. Enjoyable only to masochists.</b></span></p><p><b><span style="color: #33cc66;">Eh, either way the new changes sound good. I just don't want to see an ability that some have figured out how to use and enjoy it nerfed because most anyone else think's it's useless or hasn't figured it out. Of course, on the other hand, if Aer hates it too then it probably isn't as good as the few that say they like it suggest it is.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #33cc66;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">In it's current form it's useless - glad to see a change. </span></span></b></p><p>5) I'm not sure what should change about coercive healing tbh... In reading this and seeing other high level coercers use it on the healer in my group when I'm tanking on my main it seems extremely useful in its current form.  Maybe Aer's seeking a change because it really doesn't work well for both enchanter classes?</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff9900;">It doesnt really need to change that much. Currently the best target for CH is Shaman's. I suggested them making it like the Inquisitor Mythical that everytime the healer casts a spell, there is a 25% chance that a 2nd heal will be cast. (not the class heal, but the fast heal or big heal).</span></b></p><p>6) I really, really, really don't want to see the power drains removed from the game.  I'd rather see them be more effective on mobs by basing the drain on a percentage amount rather than a flat numeric rate.  I'd also like for less mobs to cast spells through scripting, and actually have to use more of their power use their spells and combat arts.  That would go a long way to making the power drains useful.  Add damage to the end of the spell to offset the loss of dps proc from VM when it's changed, but keep the power drain component and just tweak it.  It is useful in many cases.  Maybe another way to handle this is to add power distribution to all of the drains so that more of them increase the power of the group and some increase the power of the coercer.  I know we have a couple of spells that do this, but perhaps more should.</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff9900;">Please tell me why you need 5+ Power drains? Unless you play on a pvp server it does NO good tot have that many spells draining only power. Did you get the memo that MOBS dont' use power anymore? Didn't think so.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #33cc66;">That's my point.  Mobs should use power.  The ability of the coercer to drain power should not be removed.  Changing the code to mobs so that they use their power pools is what is needed here.  On the PvP note I don't play PvP, but I still don't like the impact changing reactives and power drains could have on those players.  These two things are a tremendous amount of coercer survivability in PvP.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #33cc66;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">They aren't going to go backwards. Mobs were changed to not use power quite sometime ago because the mechanics just don't work well. See one of the posts below for why they don't work well.</span></span></b></p><p>Overall that was it for my comments.  I did have a question, although this probably isn't the place for it.  When a coercer uses a power draining ability, is that counted by a parser as damage dealt to the mob?  It IS damage... just not to health...  Just a thought...</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff9933;">I still do not understand how you feel you can comment on something you havent experienced. Keep it up kiddo, you'll do well in the corporate world someday though.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #33cc66;">I made it clear in my statments that I don't have a high level coercer and don't raid with it. There isn't any need to be a condescending s.o.b. is there?  I do use a parser and do raid on my guard.  I was curious as to whether or not parsers pick up power damage that coercers deal out as damage dealt to the mob.  If so, our dps may be way under par even more than what people currently think because that's not actually damage being done to the mob's health.  That's why I asked the question.  Now, if you're done being condescending, since you raid on your coercer and I don't, why don't you just answer the question constructively?</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #33cc66;">Regardless, I do think adding a damage component to our power drains is a welcome change.  I'm not saying don't do that.  I just don't want to see the power drain itself removed.  I'd rather see mobs use their power pools so that the drains are effective in PvE, than see the power drains removed.</span></b></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>

[McBenzos]

<cite>zuzer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Volatile Magic - This will change for all enchanters.  The spell does not play well since I see many of the enchanters just spamming sprint to stay under 30% power.  That really wasn't the intention of the skill at all.  Instead it will be a reduced amount that applies regardless of your current power amount.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">This is a good change as well. I know a lot of people (illu) are complaining about this one but from what you have said Aeralik it sounds like what they are doing <span style="font-size: xx-large;"><b>is basically a hack and wasn't intended, so it should be changed. </b></span><cite><span style="font-size: xx-large;"><b>  </b></span>     </cite></span></p></blockquote>I made it nice and big for you.  Lrn2read.</blockquote>

[McBenzos]

<cite>zuzer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Charming@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey so Aer, if you're going to turn Coercers into Illusionists with having their reactives proc like ours, what's the point of us even being on a raid anymore?  I betrayed my Coercer because of this long overdue change, but now I'm going to have more of a reason to play a coercer than ever?  I seriously hope that Coercers will not be comparable to an Illus for parsing dmg, they have far too much more power utility.  You all can say I'm just complaining, but I've been on both sides of the fence, and unless Illus are going up with Coercers, I'll probably betray; again..<span style="color: #ff0000;">There are many more differences between the two than just the way our reactives proc. The reason you would still bring an illu along on a raid is so that you can make use of all their buffs.<span style="color: #0000ff;">So you're saying we're a buff bot?</span> As it stands right now there is no real reason to bring coercer along. Aer's goal is not to make coercers better than illu so that illu no longer gets a raid spot, but to bring coercers inline with illu so that we BOTH have a spot on a raid. If you want to betray again that is your choice but if the changes are done right (and I hope they are) there will be no reason for you to betray again as your illu will still be as viable on a raid as a coercer and vice versa.<span style="color: #0000cc;">Actually Coercers can easily pull off almost as much DPS and still be the same amount of utility, and they add more to a tank group/any group with a fighter on a raid.</span></span>I already was parsing 2500 in EoF without a troub, on mobs with the tank sitting at 100% with wards almost the whole fight.  Given a fight with tons of aoes, a troub, maybe even a wiz or inq; I was parsing like an Illus.  So if the coercers are getting buffed up so much to be on par with Illus, then what are we gaining?<span style="color: #ff0000;">Your not gaining anything, and your not supposed to. The whole point in these changes is to make coercers better to be on par with illu, why should you be gaining anything?<span style="color: #0000ff;">Because I could easily out parse any Illus in EoF if these changes had been installed back then; therefore, my friend the point I'm making which you can't seem to grasp; Is that if these changes are made as they <i>should be </i>(keep in mind I am in FAVOR of the Coercers getting buffed, long overdue) and suddenly Coercers are blowing away Illus with better power regen, more damage, and one less Melee buff; You're right, you'd only need one Illus on a raid.  Honestly if power drains turn into damage, which they should;  (The person who said they should stay in the game just doesn't know game mechanics, that would only help PVP, solely; power draining mobs doesn't do [I cannot control my vocabulary] in EQ2) I can see that buffing the Illus a bit to be inline with the massive overhaul on the coercers.</span></span>Mind you if you change our pet to do dmg on its spells instead of power draining with their CC effects I'll <3 you forever and this rant will be in the grave.  But seriously though, I betrayed my coercer because I wanted to be 100% dps and 80% utility, not 100% utility and 50% dps (because of all the limited situations, mind you this was PRE RoK.)  If Illus are going to become the new Warlock and be useless in comparison to a Wizard on a ZW, then I guess I AD3'd all the way and got my epic for nothing eh?<span style="color: #ff0000;">Why do you think these proposed changes to COERCERS are going to make illu so useless? Are you really that reliant on VM?<span style="color: #0000ff;">Quote please on where I said I needed VM to DPS.</span></span>*EDIT* For the above poster who says these changes affect the soloing coercer mostly, you are dead wrong my friend.  This affects raids and raids only.  These changes will literally determine if I betray or not if Coercers get a mega boost instead of an equalization.  And no you ENCHANTERS of the ENCHANTER community should NOT see us as subclass DPS.  Get the hell over it and start casting more!  We are dpsers that can buff, yes we cannot do as much dps as a Wizard or a Warlock flat out, but they can't give a group 20% more dps overall.  We should not be there to be buffbots, WE ARE NOT BARDS.<span style="color: #ff0000;">No one said that these changes affect the soloing coercer the most. What I said was that the possession change would not be overpowering with the exception of possibly be overpowering in a solo situation as it may give us two pets. </span>Omg then this guy right above me.. Have you ever looked at Illusionist buffs man?  You honestly think that +Haste; which is usually ALWAYS near 80% self buffed by almost every single melee class, is worth more to a raid than a <b>48,</b> I'll repeat that, <span style="font-size: x-large;"><b>48%</b> chance to proc FREE damage</span>?  Well sir, no it's not.  Decreasing the casters' threat a whole 14% Decreased Hate more (Don't forget troubadors give -36% hate gain and the cap is 50%!) would DEFINATELY, not, increase their dps; thus being a complete waste on raids.  Ask a ranger what they'd rather have, haste or DPS mod, unless they suck they'll want +dps.  But of course +25% double attack outweighs that dps because, oh my! that's more dps than either +200 haste or +200 dps!Coercers are for Scout/Tank groups, Illus go with troubs.  We have more hostile spells to cast, we can keep perp going longer with <b>damage</b> spells, and benefit <b>mages </b>better.  Maybe you guys should actually do some research as to what Illusionists do before you go giving Aer horrible ideas like these.<span style="font-size: x-large;">Flash of Brilliance - +204 Int +75 to </span><b><span style="font-size: x-large;">ALL CASTING SKILLS</span>, </b>I don't see any +melee skills there.. maybe I'm mistaken?<span style="font-size: x-large;">Savante - ~40% less used power</span>, Gee um.. since when do Scouts have a problem with power?  Um WTB Power poisons for scouts that suck.<b>ILLUMINATE - </b><span style="font-size: x-large;"><b>50% LESS RESISABILITY FOR ALL SPELLS CAST FOR TWENTY SECONDS.  </b><span style="font-size: x-small;">How the hell does that help melee?<span style="font-size: small;">Please go to eq2flames if you want real input on what changes should be made Aer.  Don't get it from the carebears that haven't even raided KoS/EoF or even bothered to learn anything about their Class of mage.<span style="color: #ff0000;">Are the gigantic letters really necessary?  <span style="color: #0000ff;">You're the one that doesn't know anything about Illusionist buffs there guy.</span></span>Holy hell.. zuzer are you serious dude?  A hack?  How is using sprint, which costs power, a hack to get your power down?  Are you mentally challenged or just stupid?  Let me ask you this smart guy, when you're killing Venril and you might get the mana gain, do you want to not be able to get your power down unless using abilities (which will shoot your power up and wipe the raid; but you knew that right because you actually raid?  Oh no that's right you have probably never even raided Labs in KoS and are calling Enchanters who have been using the VM line to its INTENDED use for raising damage, hackers.)  You know what guys, let's just remove power from the game entirely, zuzer is right; Sprint is a hack!  It's a dirty exploiting hack to get your power down, and it even coincides with scripts the developers made for certain encounters.NERF SPRINT '08!<span style="color: #ff0000;">VM in it's current form was not meant to be used the way that you guys are using it.<span style="color: #0000ff;">How is using the god [I cannot control my vocabulary] damage increase by keeping our power under the constraint of the AA not the way we're supposed to use it?  You're just stupid and can't read between the lines to see that they really mean :WE DIDN'T MEAN FOR YOU TO HAVE TO KEEP SPRINTING AND STAY UNDER 30% POWER JUST TO GET THE EFFECT OF THIS AA, SORRY.But you really are too thick to see that eh?</span> Aer said so in his original post (go back and read it again), so if that is the case (and it is) then what else am I supposed to call it besides a hack?<span style="color: #0000ff;">Nothing because we're using it like it's written.</span> Is it better for you if I call it a "work around"? Call it what you like but what you are doing was never intended, bottom line, so it needs to be changed. <span style="color: #0000ff;">Bravo Aer's personal cheerleader, you hit the nail on the coffin.  <i><b>We've</b></i> apparently been exploiting because <i><b>they</b></i> don't ever pay any attention to enchanters, and <i><b>they </b></i>didn't know that it was an annoyance just to keep it going in between fights.  Yes we "worked around it" (if that's what you want to call.. <u>using it</u>.) for 2 expansions now, I don't know where you've been.  Apparently protesting doing actual dps because you see being under 30% power an exploit.  /shrug</span></span></span></span></span></blockquote></blockquote>

[Dallun]

<p><cite>Regholdain wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>I just wanted to make a couple of points...</p><p><span class="postbody">3) I think Volatile Magic is a good ability inconcept, but it contradicts much of the coercer's abilities.  Thecoercer is about healing power.  It is much more difficult to fill thatroll and keep power below 30% in order to proc VM for a coercer than anillusionist.  I also don't think sprint was inteded to be used to makeVM proc more, although there isn't much that could be done to changethis.  What I see from illusionists is that they've figured out how todo far more dps than they should by spamming sprint to keep their powerdown, and that for coercers keeping power down is far more difficult,so they are not as able to do so.  VM should simply work differently. It needs to be a passive buff that buffs spell casting permanently, orsome sort of always on spell damage proc that has a chance of going offwith a successful cast.  If this nerfs the current dps output ofillusionists, that's only because they are using an ability that is NOTWORKING AS INTENDED.  They should realize, at some point, it was goingto be fixed and that point has finally come.</span></p><p><b><span style="color: #ff9933;">Agreed.I love how some Illy's are up in arms about VM change. I still have yetto see any of the illusionists I raid with using VM anyways. "VM is adying breed" says one of my enchanter mates...</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #ff9933;"><span style="color: #ff0000;">VM is being used in a way it was never intended, I'm glad it's getting fixed.</span></span></b></p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff9933;"><span style="color: #000000;">Couple of points here that I think need to be addressed.  </span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9933;"><span style="color: #000000;">First, I am an illusionist so yes I'm biased.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #ff9933;"><span style="color: #000000;">Second, if Aeralik hadn't said "</span></span><span class="postbody">That really wasn't the intention of the skill at all." there wouldn't be an argument at all because using sprint as a means of power control is neither a "hack" as one has called it, nor is it an ability that is "exploited".  Tbh, I think it more likely that, that which was unintended, was the ability to maintain 30% or lower for extended periods of time.  Yes its annoying to continuously hit sprint, but remember that only came about when they 'fixed' the fact that having your weapon drawn kept you 'out of combat'.</span></p><p>Third, most illusionists don't like this change (in VM) because in a raid all we are doing is DPSing.  There is no such thing as control in a raid anymore (and hasn't been for a long time) unless its the mob doing it, only prevention and recovery.  What illusionist can control is the damage they do (where as Coercers can't currently).  Most abilities that Illusionist use are to enhance the damage done by us and our group where as Coercers enhance the survivability of the group.  Compare it if you will to the differences between the Furies and Wardens and their constant struggle to maintain usefulness.</p><p>Lastly, don't scoff at what you already have... take Coercive Healing for example.  One of the best defensive buffs in T8 raiding simply because with it on the Shaman, it means the their wards are large enough to soak the one hit wonders that permeate VP.</p><p>Dallun/Fione</p><p>Warden/Illusionist</p><p>Antonia Bayle</p>

[Grimlux]

<cite>Charming@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>zuzer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Volatile Magic - This will change for all enchanters.  The spell does not play well since I see many of the enchanters just spamming sprint to stay under 30% power.  That really wasn't the intention of the skill at all.  Instead it will be a reduced amount that applies regardless of your current power amount.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">This is a good change as well. I know a lot of people (illu) are complaining about this one but from what you have said Aeralik it sounds like what they are doing <span style="font-size: xx-large;"><b>is basically a hack and wasn't intended, so it should be changed. </b></span><cite><span style="font-size: xx-large;"><b>  </b></span>     </cite></span></p></blockquote>I made it nice and big for you.  Lrn2read.</blockquote></blockquote>lol... its not a hack. VM just isnt being used as originally intended. I'd also like to point out that Illusionists are not the only one's who has access to VM. Its definately more practical for Illusionists to use VM, but why have a skill in a shared AA tree that is not practical to both Archetypes. Catch my drift?

[zuzer]

<cite>Charming@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>zuzer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Volatile Magic - This will change for all enchanters.  The spell does not play well since I see many of the enchanters just spamming sprint to stay under 30% power.  That really wasn't the intention of the skill at all.  Instead it will be a reduced amount that applies regardless of your current power amount.</p><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">This is a good change as well. I know a lot of people (illu) are complaining about this one but from what you have said Aeralik it sounds like what they are doing <span style="font-size: xx-large;"><b>is basically a hack and wasn't intended, so it should be changed. </b></span><cite><span style="font-size: xx-large;"><b>  </b></span>     </cite></span></p></blockquote>I made it nice and big for you.  Lrn2read.</blockquote><span style="color: #ff0000;"> Again I ask, what else I am supposed to call it? It was never intended to be used in the manner you and other illu's are using it, so call it whatever you want - a hack, an exploit, a work around, a trick or an illusion your using it in a manner that it was never supposed to be used and so they are changing it. </span></blockquote>

[zuzer]

<cite>Charming@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>zuzer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Charming@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey so Aer, if you're going to turn Coercers into Illusionists with having their reactives proc like ours, what's the point of us even being on a raid anymore?  I betrayed my Coercer because of this long overdue change, but now I'm going to have more of a reason to play a coercer than ever?  I seriously hope that Coercers will not be comparable to an Illus for parsing dmg, they have far too much more power utility.  You all can say I'm just complaining, but I've been on both sides of the fence, and unless Illus are going up with Coercers, I'll probably betray; again..<span style="color: #ff0000;">There are many more differences between the two than just the way our reactives proc. The reason you would still bring an illu along on a raid is so that you can make use of all their buffs.<span style="color: #0000ff;">So you're saying we're a buff bot?<span style="color: #33ff00;">Of course not. You'd be doing dps as well, what difference does it make if the reactives proc the same way?</span></span> As it stands right now there is no real reason to bring coercer along. Aer's goal is not to make coercers better than illu so that illu no longer gets a raid spot, but to bring coercers inline with illu so that we BOTH have a spot on a raid. If you want to betray again that is your choice but if the changes are done right (and I hope they are) there will be no reason for you to betray again as your illu will still be as viable on a raid as a coercer and vice versa.<span style="color: #0000cc;">Actually Coercers can easily pull off almost as much DPS and still be the same amount of utility, and they add more to a tank group/any group with a fighter on a raid.<span style="color: #33ff00;">Well I think your wrong here, and I think the whole community knows that coercers can't "easily pull off almost as much DPS" as an illusionist. This is evidenced by the fact that after all this time the devs have finally agreed and stated that they plan to make changes to remedy this long standing issue. This is the whole point of that Aer posted in the first place.  Coercers are not inline with illu's and the changes he is making is to fix that.</span></span></span>I already was parsing 2500 in EoF without a troub, on mobs with the tank sitting at 100% with wards almost the whole fight.  Given a fight with tons of aoes, a troub, maybe even a wiz or inq; I was parsing like an Illus.  So if the coercers are getting buffed up so much to be on par with Illus, then what are we gaining?<span style="color: #ff0000;">Your not gaining anything, and your not supposed to. The whole point in these changes is to make coercers better to be on par with illu, why should you be gaining anything?<span style="color: #0000ff;">Because I could easily out parse any Illus in EoF if these changes had been installed back then; therefore, my friend the point I'm making which you can't seem to grasp; Is that if these changes are made as they <i>should be </i>(keep in mind I am in FAVOR of the Coercers getting buffed, long overdue) and suddenly Coercers are blowing away Illus with better power regen, more damage, and one less Melee buff; You're right, you'd only need one Illus on a raid.  Honestly if power drains turn into damage, which they should;  (The person who said they should stay in the game just doesn't know game mechanics, that would only help PVP, solely; power draining mobs doesn't do [I cannot control my vocabulary] in EQ2) I can see that buffing the Illus a bit to be inline with the massive overhaul on the coercers.<span style="color: #33ff00;">I grasp your point quite well. But your asking for something when you don't know if you need it or not. The only changes that affect the illu's are the change on vm and the change on the power drains. Since the changes are being made on both illu's and coercers why should anybody make an additional change on illu's? What you are saying is that because are getting revamped illu's will somehow be left behind and therefore need to be changed as well - and that remains to be seen. What you say is possible (that they will buff coercers too much and then illu's will be the one's to suffer) but I hope that doesn't happen and I don't think it will.</span></span></span>Mind you if you change our pet to do dmg on its spells instead of power draining with their CC effects I'll <3 you forever and this rant will be in the grave.  But seriously though, I betrayed my coercer because I wanted to be 100% dps and 80% utility, not 100% utility and 50% dps (because of all the limited situations, mind you this was PRE RoK.)  If Illus are going to become the new Warlock and be useless in comparison to a Wizard on a ZW, then I guess I AD3'd all the way and got my epic for nothing eh?<span style="color: #ff0000;">Why do you think these proposed changes to COERCERS are going to make illu so useless? Are you really that reliant on VM?<span style="color: #0000ff;">Quote please on where I said I needed VM to DPS.</span></span><span style="color: #33ff00;">You didn't say it - I just assumed it because I don't understand how the proposed changes are going to hurt you so bad that you go from "100% dps and 80% utility" to "100% utility and 50% dps". What you are saying makes no sense. You are jumping the gun. For all you know the proposed changes will make illu's do better dps in which case you don't need to betray. But if all you are concerned with is DPS anyway why not just play a wizard or assassin and be done with it?</span>*EDIT* For the above poster who says these changes affect the soloing coercer mostly, you are dead wrong my friend.  This affects raids and raids only.  These changes will literally determine if I betray or not if Coercers get a mega boost instead of an equalization.  And no you ENCHANTERS of the ENCHANTER community should NOT see us as subclass DPS.  Get the hell over it and start casting more!  We are dpsers that can buff, yes we cannot do as much dps as a Wizard or a Warlock flat out, but they can't give a group 20% more dps overall.  We should not be there to be buffbots, WE ARE NOT BARDS.<span style="color: #ff0000;">No one said that these changes affect the soloing coercer the most. What I said was that the possession change would not be overpowering with the exception of possibly be overpowering in a solo situation as it may give us two pets. </span>Omg then this guy right above me.. Have you ever looked at Illusionist buffs man?  You honestly think that +Haste; which is usually ALWAYS near 80% self buffed by almost every single melee class, is worth more to a raid than a <b>48,</b> I'll repeat that, <span style="font-size: x-large;"><b>48%</b> chance to proc FREE damage</span>?  Well sir, no it's not.  Decreasing the casters' threat a whole 14% Decreased Hate more (Don't forget troubadors give -36% hate gain and the cap is 50%!) would DEFINATELY, not, increase their dps; thus being a complete waste on raids.  Ask a ranger what they'd rather have, haste or DPS mod, unless they suck they'll want +dps.  But of course +25% double attack outweighs that dps because, oh my! that's more dps than either +200 haste or +200 dps!Coercers are for Scout/Tank groups, Illus go with troubs.  We have more hostile spells to cast, we can keep perp going longer with <b>damage</b> spells, and benefit <b>mages </b>better.  Maybe you guys should actually do some research as to what Illusionists do before you go giving Aer horrible ideas like these.<span style="font-size: x-large;">Flash of Brilliance - +204 Int +75 to </span><b><span style="font-size: x-large;">ALL CASTING SKILLS</span>, </b>I don't see any +melee skills there.. maybe I'm mistaken?<span style="font-size: x-large;">Savante - ~40% less used power</span>, Gee um.. since when do Scouts have a problem with power?  Um WTB Power poisons for scouts that suck.<b>ILLUMINATE - </b><span style="font-size: x-large;"><b>50% LESS RESISABILITY FOR ALL SPELLS CAST FOR TWENTY SECONDS.  </b><span style="font-size: x-small;">How the hell does that help melee?<span style="font-size: small;">Please go to eq2flames if you want real input on what changes should be made Aer.  Don't get it from the carebears that haven't even raided KoS/EoF or even bothered to learn anything about their Class of mage.<span style="color: #ff0000;">Are the gigantic letters really necessary?  <span style="color: #0000ff;">You're the one that doesn't know anything about Illusionist buffs there guy.<span style="color: #33ff00;">Never claimed that I did.</span></span></span>Holy hell.. zuzer are you serious dude?  A hack?  How is using sprint, which costs power, a hack to get your power down?  Are you mentally challenged or just stupid?  Let me ask you this smart guy, when you're killing Venril and you might get the mana gain, do you want to not be able to get your power down unless using abilities (which will shoot your power up and wipe the raid; but you knew that right because you actually raid?  Oh no that's right you have probably never even raided Labs in KoS and are calling Enchanters who have been using the VM line to its INTENDED use for raising damage, hackers.)  You know what guys, let's just remove power from the game entirely, zuzer is right; Sprint is a hack!  It's a dirty exploiting hack to get your power down, and it even coincides with scripts the developers made for certain encounters.NERF SPRINT '08!<span style="color: #ff0000;">VM in it's current form was not meant to be used the way that you guys are using it.<span style="color: #0000ff;">How is using the god [I cannot control my vocabulary] damage increase by keeping our power under the constraint of the AA not the way we're supposed to use it?  You're just stupid and can't read between the lines to see that they really mean :WE DIDN'T MEAN FOR YOU TO HAVE TO KEEP SPRINTING AND STAY UNDER 30% POWER JUST TO GET THE EFFECT OF THIS AA, SORRY.But you really are too thick to see that eh?<span style="color: #33ff00;">Yeah, I guess I am - oh wait, thats right that isn't what he said. He said that people are using it in a way they did not intend. The whole point to VM is that if you are in a fight and are start running low on power you get a damage increase so that you don't die due to a lack of power. It was never meant for somebody to spam sprint to get the added benefit of VM. That is why they are changing it, because your using it in a way they didn't intend for you to.</span></span> Aer said so in his original post (go back and read it again), so if that is the case (and it is) then what else am I supposed to call it besides a hack?<span style="color: #0000ff;">Nothing because we're using it like it's written.<span style="color: #33ff00;">No you aren't - just read Aer's post and you'll see that he said the same thing.</span></span> Is it better for you if I call it a "work around"? Call it what you like but what you are doing was never intended, bottom line, so it needs to be changed. <span style="color: #0000ff;">Bravo Aer's personal cheerleader, you hit the nail on the coffin.  <i><b>We've</b></i> apparently been exploiting because <i><b>they</b></i> don't ever pay any attention to enchanters, and <i><b>they </b></i>didn't know that it was an annoyance just to keep it going in between fights.  Yes we "worked around it" (if that's what you want to call.. <u>using it</u>.) for 2 expansions now, I don't know where you've been.  Apparently protesting doing actual dps because you see being under 30% power an exploit.  /shrug</span><span style="color: #33ff00;">You are basically right here. They have largely ignored the enchanters (and to a much greater degree the coercers) for a long time. If they had thought about what they were doing when they made this ability they wouldn't have done it the way they did which is evidenced by the fact that they are now changing it. Just because it took them a long time doesn't mean anything - keep in mind this is SOE we are talking about and they don't always move the fastest to make changes. I just hope they fix it in a way that allows us BOTH to do some decent dps without having to invent work arounds.</span></span></span></span></span></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>

[Ran]

i think some guys should stop now to write anything more. Statementes like "a coercer can actually outparse easily an illu" are so [Removed for Content] two faced.. Coercer can do a good amount of dps on specific mobs like Thombs of Thuuga Trash, Excecutor Throne Room Trash, Werewulf named in FTG, Chel'Drak... those Nameds are "Coercer" mobs in T8 and T7. Thats all and for me its nothing less than a lie to say.. a coercer can outparse an illu and "forget" to add "on specific mobs". I outparsed the illu in the raidforce befor but thats not cause illu is not able to make "easily" 1k + more than a coercer, no its just the fact this guy sucked a lot. you guys are now talking about vm and how it was not working like intended and faster run button use is a hack.. WHAT THE HELL GUYS are you [Removed for Content] serious??? Every Illu has today a better place as a coercer. 3 to 1 in raid more dps more utility same solo ability's And those who are now crying about the FIX... and yes it is nothing more than a FIX to the coercer class are not crying cause the coercer gets utility.. no they're crying cause we get power back and they are not longer on they're vip status like today. Every illu i know says it was long long overtimed we get a bit love. Not one starts crying they're getting less usefull on raid cause those guys know how to play the class... lets work together and not fall in such stupid discussions if vm using was a hack or not... it's the past, not the future. This is a fix to our class, lets make the best with this!

[Alfgand]

<cite>Regholdain wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Regholdain wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I just wanted to make a couple of points...</p><p>1) The coercer is NOT a pet class.  Some coercer seem to think they are or should be, but they are not.  Charm allows for a temporary pet and I find it 100% more useful soloing or duoing as crowd control than in boosting dps.  We do not have a pet heal or summon because we do not have pets!  There's no need for those things.  Also, to those who have issues with charm, charm is working as intended.  I rarely have had problems when it breaks because I get a half second warning and a short mezz on the charmed mob that allows me to get it under control again.  It has never caused a wipe in a group or given me a bad day soloing.  We are NOT a pet class.  We are crowd control / power drain / and dots.  The class, for the most part imho works as intended.  I do not want a perma-pet like an illusionist.  I play the coercer because it's more fun to charm than to just summon up a pet.  If want a perma-pet I have summoners to choose from.</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff9933;">You are incorrect. The coercer is a pet class. We can charm at any time. (some mobs restricted) Looks like a pet, smells like a pet, must be a pet! We use our pets differently, there's a difference in that statement. Necro and Conj pets have more utility's but that's only because our Charm pet has been wittled down over the years to now, its current state. Also, Charm is not going away (atleast from what I read) They are giving raider's and dungeon party coercers the option to "Possess" a mob that will probably be crappy, but atleast give us a tiny boost in DPS. This is how I read it.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #33cc66;">Charm is more useful as a solo cc tool for adds, or for helping to clear, and that's a minimal statement of use. I have found no situation where having a charmed pet was necessary for me to function as a coercer.  Other pet classes NEED their pet.  I would hardly call a conjy or necro's pet "utility".  That's a good bulk of their class's dps. The coercer does not need a pet; charm only gives us a powerful option for cc.  That's the difference I identify when I say we are not a pet class.  How often do you roll with a charmed pet compared to a conjy/necro/illu?  I would be willing to bet hardly at all. And no,  I don't think charm is going away and I never said I wanted it to.  Also, I agree your summation of what to expect from the changes to Possess would be accurate.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #cc0033;">Wow, all I can say is you are <u>totally</u> under utilizing charm. Oh, you are not? Well, your words speak for themselves.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #cc0033;">"Charm is more useful as a solo cc tool for adds" Again,wow, I must be in a different game than you are. Yes, we are a pet class. Just because our pet is temporary and we do not have heals for it just makes it different not less so. If fact we are not limited to pitiful few pets that the poor summoners are limited to.</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #cc0033;">A good  part of our solo DPS is in our pets. I wonder if you are using less than Master for charm or maybe are not picking the right pets. Thats the only explanation I can come up with for this bizzare attitude towards charm.</span></b></p></blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>

[Regholdain]

<p><cite>Svenghali@Mistmoore wrote: LOTS OF STUFF</cite></p><p>In response to Sven, without quoting as that post is getting uncontrollably long...</p><p>I disagree with you regarding Charm, and that's all.  I have neither found using it necessary or a boon to my gameplay except in an emergency situation, whether I solo or duo which is mostly what I do with my coercer anyway.  Second, not every player has access to masters or wants them as they're levelling up, so no not using masters but am using Ad3.  Do I have an issue with charm breaking?  Nope, it's been perfectly reliable most of the time I've used it.  I just don't see the need to have a pet in 85% of the situations I am in.  My dps from spells alone seems more than adequate.  So yes, for now, I use Charm as a cc tool or maybe while harvesting around aggro.  Perhaps in higher levels it will make more of a difference.  I can say that my experience playing the coercer and using Charm in this way has been far more enjoyable treating it as a cc tool than as a temporary-permanent pet.  It just makes more sense to me to use it that way atm.  That's just how I play.  I hardly see it as playing the coercer incorrectly; I just play a different style than most coercers apparently.</p><p>As far as your comments regarding raiding go, a player doesn't have to raid to understand their reactives and how they function.  Pointing out that I don't raid on my coercer over and over and not actually discussing my suggestions regarding the reactives constructively just goes to show that you don't have any better suggestion to keep them in line with the class's suggested architype and lore (as a mind-dominating-enchanter who punishes his foes for their very thoughts to attempt to strike him or his allies).  As I've said, if the mechanic were tweaked so that the reactives dealt damage to the mob while it was stunned/stifled and did not break said stun/stifle in the process, it'd go a long way to fixing it.  Another way to look at it would be maybe have it turn into a dot if a stun/stifle effect were already on the mob and code it so that it cannot break a stun/stifle, but that when the mob is no longer stunned/stiffled it still is a reactive for its remaining duration.  What does raiding have to do with this opinion exactly?</p><p>In the end, no amount of you telling me I'm wrong will change how I play my coercer or how I think changes can be made to better fit with the architype.  I just think it's funny that here I am making constructive comments and most of the answer I get is that I'm just totally under-using my class's ability and that since I don't raid I shouldn't comment.  This thread wasn't regarding changes that affected only raiders.  It is changes affecting all coercers, and that includes me whether you like it or not.  And since it does include me, I will continue to post my constructive thoughts on the matter.</p>

[Grimlux]

<cite>Regholdain wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><cite>Svenghali@Mistmoore wrote: LOTS OF STUFF</cite></p><p>In response to Sven, without quoting as that post is getting uncontrollably long...</p><p>I disagree with you regarding Charm, and that's all.  I have neither found using it necessary or a boon to my gameplay except in an emergency situation, whether I solo or duo which is mostly what I do with my coercer anyway.  Second, not every player has access to masters or wants them as they're levelling up, so no not using masters but am using Ad3.  Do I have an issue with charm breaking?  Nope, it's been perfectly reliable most of the time I've used it.  I just don't see the need to have a pet in 85% of the situations I am in.  My dps from spells alone seems more than adequate.  So yes, for now, I use Charm as a cc tool or maybe while harvesting around aggro.  Perhaps in higher levels it will make more of a difference.  I can say that my experience playing the coercer and using Charm in this way has been far more enjoyable treating it as a cc tool than as a temporary-permanent pet.  It just makes more sense to me to use it that way atm.  That's just how I play.  I hardly see it as playing the coercer incorrectly; I just play a different style than most coercers apparently.</p><p>As far as your comments regarding raiding go, a player doesn't have to raid to understand their reactives and how they function.  Pointing out that I don't raid on my coercer over and over and not actually discussing my suggestions regarding the reactives constructively just goes to show that you don't have any better suggestion to keep them in line with the class's suggested architype and lore (as a mind-dominating-enchanter who punishes his foes for their very thoughts to attempt to strike him or his allies).  As I've said, if the mechanic were tweaked so that the reactives dealt damage to the mob while it was stunned/stifled and did not break said stun/stifle in the process, it'd go a long way to fixing it.  Another way to look at it would be maybe have it turn into a dot if a stun/stifle effect were already on the mob and code it so that it cannot break a stun/stifle, but that when the mob is no longer stunned/stiffled it still is a reactive for its remaining duration.  What does raiding have to do with this opinion exactly?</p><p>In the end, no amount of you telling me I'm wrong will change how I play my coercer or how I think changes can be made to better fit with the architype.  I just think it's funny that here I am making constructive comments and most of the answer I get is that I'm just totally under-using my class's ability and that since I don't raid I shouldn't comment.  This thread wasn't regarding changes that affected only raiders.  It is changes affecting all coercers, and that includes me whether you like it or not.  And since it does include me, I will continue to post my constructive thoughts on the matter.</p></blockquote>I think what Sven means, and is apparent that any mage class, even necro's can solo without a pet. Why would you? The reason why we "Need" our pets is so that we are not sitting on the same mob wittling them away for centuries. Our sacrificial pet gets hit easy, which makes our reactives go off.. So yes.. A charm pet is as necessary as a Necro or Conjuror having theirs.

[Chalkydri]

If your a coercer running around solo and not using Charm then you have problems. First off having a pet charmed and tanking for you is prime. Root the mob, pop your reactives on and send your charmed pet in. Then your melee reactives are going off giving you a lot more dps. Our charmed pet is the equivalent of necro pet or caster dfepending on which mob you charm. Some mobs I charm can do over 5k damage a hit! <u><b>Is that not enough dps to keep you satisfied????</b></u> Using charm as a form of CC while in groups is seriously dumb. "Hey lets use a 5 second cast to charm a mob while my group is dying." Stupid ...considering mez  takes from 1-2 seconds max to cast depending on spec and gear. Honestly I think over half the people posting on this forum don't know how to play the class. Coercers getting more dps kind of scares me because I get such bad spurt damage when the mob ae's and it hits everyone triggering all 5 procs of my reactive doing over 10k damage in one hit. I don't mind the boost sure will be great, not going to complain. Possession ...why the hell are you taking this away? Once again killing soloability. This spell is great for setting up 2 mobs to kill each other as you run past without aggro ...probably something else the newb coercers didn't know how to do. Keep it as a fun spell at least please?AERALIK: Fix Hostage to Proc (Programming issue?) on Rangers Bow(Melee) attacks, annoying as hell in PvP when I can't even touch them and get 2 shotted by a mythical bow ...no CA's just a double attack and I'm down. Im in all 77+ Legendary so should be no reason for that.Honestly I'm tired of all the premature whining. Play a new class, something easier then. By far coercer is one of the most toughest.

[Trepan]

<cite>Chalkydri wrote:</cite><blockquote>Using charm as a form of CC while in groups is seriously dumb.</blockquote>-5 points for blanket statements and over generalization.   Every tool has a time and place, some times and some places are unexpected and surprising.

[Alfgand]

<cite>Praetorate@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think what Sven means, and is apparent that any mage class, even necro's can solo without a pet. Why would you? The reason why we "Need" our pets is so that we are not sitting on the same mob wittling them away for centuries. Our sacrificial pet gets hit easy, which makes our reactives go off.. So yes.. A charm pet is as necessary as a Necro or Conjuror having theirs.</blockquote><p>Thats exactly what Sven is saying. lol</p><p>My 41 Necro can kill mobs without his pet. My 74 Wizard can kill mobs without rooting. My Coercer can kill mobs solo without a pet. A hunter with a rifle can run up to a deer and stab it with a pointy stick.</p><p>But why ?</p><p>This thread as, well as others, are starting to go over the deep end.</p><p>The Illusionists are getting up in arms about VM. The fringe possession wing of the Coercers is lamenting the demise of a quite useless spell. Chanters who adore power drains that have since LU13 really done nothing are complaining. Rangers are po'ed at us because we are getting some attention and may be getting some fixes because they are not happy since their fixes were not satifactory. Coercers who betrayed are already betraying back before the "fixes" even go in. Others are chomping at the bit to betray as soon as they see the changes. Many have started playing their long abandoned Coercers and others have started new Coercers. SK's are mad because they still need fixes and have not been addressed yet. Even Coercers who do not raid and don't use pets to solo have awakened and joined the fray.</p><p>So, I would say to all you Coercers that have been posting and presenting your points, for so very long, on why we are badly needing fixing and you know who you are, have .... well..... <u>caused quite a bit of chaos.</u></p><p>Good Job ! lol  Take a bow!</p><p>(Note to Rangers: I mean bow, like at the end of a performance, not a bow like you guys use with arrows. I am not suggesting Coercers get bows to use as a weapon. I figured I would stop that discusion right off the bat.)</p><p>(Necros: Thats "right off the bat" like "right now", not your type of bat.)</p>

[Aule]

<cite>Chalkydri wrote:</cite><blockquote>AERALIK: Fix Hostage to Proc (Programming issue?) on Rangers Bow(Melee) attacks, annoying as hell in PvP when I can't even touch them and get 2 shotted by a mythical bow ...no CA's just a double attack and I'm down. Im in all 77+ Legendary so should be no reason for that.</blockquote>The word melee means "hand-to-hand combat" by the way.  Bow's are a part of "ranged combat".  Now while I agree they should proc hostage hits for game sake, referring to bows as melee damage is a misnomer.