BRIGANDS BADLY NERFED SINCE 50

[Gerrie]

<p>brigands have been one of the most powerful classes available at level 50</p><p>They easily matched the dps of assassins and wizards and so on.</p><p>now people say they do only 7-8k dps, while assassins and co do over 10k+ dps, even swashbuckler seem to be closer to 10k</p><p>also you cant use ruse on raids anymore because of one shotting and guilds dont like you to melee because of heavy aoes</p>

[Anfauglith]

NEVER trust "what people say"...that said....even more if it comes from from high high end players...most of them seam to have parses that show opposite problems.We are really usefull in raids...our debuffs are the best! That's a fact and it's not about to change.Now even if it was true, it is normal for assassins and wizards to parse higher than us...they are SUPPOSED to parse higher than brigand...we have awsome debuffs...assassins barely have aggro transfer...if we were to parse the same than them assassins would be totaly useless.I think if we do around 20-25% less dps than assassins and wizards then the world is right.As for swashbucklers...concidering the swashy in my guild is about as good as a player as me and has barely less masters, he usualy parses about 5-10% higher than me zonewide when we are in the same group so it seams right to me.Don't forget you can't compare 2 classes that are grouped with completly different classes.In my guild, wizards and warlocks parse around 4.5-5.5k, aswell as assassins. Swashy and I parse around 3.5-4.5k. But at the same time...we have 1 wizard that has deep problems parsing over 2.5k...and a brigand equiped nearly the same as me that has problems parsing over 3k... both due to lag...so need to be really mindfull when you compare parses...

[Fatuus]

<cite>Gerrie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>brigands have been one of the most powerful classes available at level 50</p><p>They easily matched the dps of assassins and wizards and so on.</p><p>now people say they do only 7-8k dps, while assassins and co do over 10k+ dps, even swashbuckler seem to be closer to 10k</p><p>also you cant use ruse on raids anymore because of one shotting and guilds dont like you to melee because of heavy aoes</p></blockquote><p>"brigands have been one of the most powerful classes available at level 50"</p><p>They still are.</p><p>"They easily matched the dps of assassins and wizards and so on."</p><p>Well predators are supposed to be Tier1 dps while rogues are supposed to be Tier 2. Bards are supposed to be tier 3.</p><p>Consider Sorcerers (wizards and warlocks) are supposed to be Tier 1, Summoners Tier 2, and Enchanters Tier 3.</p><p>"now people say they do only 7-8k dps, while assassins and co do over 10k+ dps, even swashbuckler seem to be closer to 10k"</p><p>It all depends on group makeup, buffs, player skill, and encounter details. On equal group makeups (assuming the brigand and swash have relatively the same gear equivalents...note not the same gear since both classes dps differently) both do about the same dps if you average it out. Swashbucklers own on multimob encounters, brigands have an edge on single target encounters.</p><p>The bottom line difference between the two classes (swashbuckler and brigand) comes from where their dps comes from. A good swashbuckler that parses 5k+ dps will immediately say 65+% of their dps is straight from autoattack and poisons...This means about 30 to 35% of their dps is combat art related. I've found for myself that about 65 to 70% of my dps comes from combat arts and 30 to 35% comes from poisons and autoattack. Fight length also has a huge roll in your dps amount. If the fight lasts less then a min, a brigand will generally be in the top 5 (generally I am in the top 2 in my guild) I can pull out 6 to 7k parses routinely...if I was better geared and mythicaled I could probably do about 8 to 10k in that fight (assuming I had my dream group setup).</p><p>"also you cant use ruse on raids anymore because of one shotting and guilds dont like you to melee because of heavy aoes"</p><p>I use ruse all the time on raids, just not on epic mobs generally. There are a couple epic mobs where that skill becomes invaluable.</p>

[Gerrie]

<p>when exactly can you use ruse and when not?</p><p> I thought about maxing defending line and picking safehouse, with that you could use ruse every 5 min  without dieing maybe, but it s probably not worth it</p><p>other than that i m maxing STR / AGI and getting the deaggro from INT</p><p>you re right about assassins beeing meant to do more damage.</p><p>but does it make any sense then to have more then 1 or at most 2 brigands in a raidforce?</p><p>what about the aoe problems?</p>

[Fatuus]

<cite>Gerrie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>when exactly can you use ruse and when not?</p><p> I thought about maxing defending line and picking safehouse, with that you could use ruse every 5 min  without dieing maybe, but it s probably not worth it</p><p>other than that i m maxing STR / AGI and getting the deaggro from INT</p><p>you re right about assassins beeing meant to do more damage.</p><p>but does it make any sense then to have more then 1 or at most 2 brigands in a raidforce?</p><p>what about the aoe problems?</p></blockquote><p>"when exactly can you use ruse and when not?"</p><p>I use ruse all the time on heroic type mobs when I know I am in the top 5 in hate so I can snag aggro and get whacked quick...its one of your best single target attacks you can do. After ruse is caste just wait for the mob to hit you then use hideaway to dump aggro. The trick is you need to be HIT for it to work...and you need to be pretty high in the aggro list. you can take a few whacks as a scout from a mob and not die...so if your healers on the ball you should always be ok. There are two epic type encounters in the game where I use it on epic mobs (occasionally 3)...two are RoK type encounters...one is an EoF encounter.</p><p>"I thought about maxing defending line and picking safehouse, with that you could use ruse every 5 min  without dieing maybe, but it s probably not worth it"</p><p>You can use it every minute if you are smart and have good healers (depending on the fight of course).</p><p>"other than that i m maxing STR / AGI and getting the deaggro from INT"</p><p>There is another way to spec for dps?</p><p>"but does it make any sense then to have more then 1 or at most 2 brigands in a raidforce?"</p><p>Does it make sense to have more then 2 of any class in the raid? I often wondered how well a raidforce consisting of 12 paladins and 12 wizards would do...</p><p>In all seriouslness its pretty rare to have more then 1 of any class in a raid...the only ones that pop in my mind is that its nice to have 2 dirges, 2 troubs, and 2 illusionists in a raid (or 3 troubs and 1 dirge if caster heavy).</p><p>"what about the aoe problems?"</p><p>What about them...they exist its how the encounters become more difficult.</p>

[Goonch]

So many things incorrect here. 1) Brigands didn't become a powerhouse until T6. Most servers had a dozen brigands at level 50 tops in T5. And we definitely weren't doing the top dps back then either. Most fighter classes, sorcerers, preds, and summoners all owned us. 2) If you are in the same group with the same buffs as assassins they should do more dps than you 100% of the time. 3) Who would use Shenanigans on a raid mob? Even on trash its pointless.

[Anfauglith]

Ruse was never ment to be our strong point in raid...I wish there was an aa making it good in raid but it's always been a dnagerous thing to do.

[Gerrie]

<cite>Goonch wrote:</cite><blockquote>So many things incorrect here.1) Brigands didn't become a powerhouse until T6. Most servers had a dozen brigands at level 50 tops in T5. And we definitely weren't doing the top dps back then either. Most fighter classes, sorcerers, preds, and summoners all owned us.2) If you are in the same group with the same buffs as assassins they should do more dps than you 100% of the time.3) Who would use Shenanigans on a raid mob? Even on trash its pointless.</blockquote>you re running on wrong information there. some brigands did parse higher. but it s been a long time too.

[Klaktar]

<cite>Gerrie wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Goonch wrote:</cite><blockquote>So many things incorrect here.1) Brigands didn't become a powerhouse until T6. Most servers had a dozen brigands at level 50 tops in T5. And we definitely weren't doing the top dps back then either. Most fighter classes, sorcerers, preds, and summoners all owned us.2) If you are in the same group with the same buffs as assassins they should do more dps than you 100% of the time.3) Who would use Shenanigans on a raid mob? Even on trash its pointless.</blockquote>you re running on wrong information there. some brigands did parse higher. but it s been a long time too.</blockquote>T6 = 50-59. His informations is 100% accurate. Yours, is not. Brigands were never meant to be a DPS class, so to speak. Before Desert of Flames launched, our DPS was [I cannot control my vocabulary], but we had the debuffs to make us an incredibly useful class. We got Dispatch and Amazing Reflexes in T6, which was a huge boost to DPS on raids (Dispatch boosted everyone, of course). Kingdom of Sky came out (T7 - 60-69), and with the advent of Achievements, we became monsters on the parse. This trend continued with EoF's extra AA trees and more AA points becoming available.Brigands never parsed higher than an equal level assassin until DoF/KoS. Assassins, Wizards, Warlocks, and Rangers SHOULD be outparsing us. If not, they need to work on their character. The reason we matched the power of Assassins was because we didn't have to joust AoEs, and our 1hand AA line was insane. With the nerfs to AR and the changes to dual wield weapons, that changed. Note how it became more <i>balanced</i>, the only nerf we've ever recieved was the changes to AR since EoF launched.And to reiterate, there's no reason you should be using shenanigans on a raid mob. Lots of raid mobs heal when people die, and shenanigans tends to kill you. Also, if your guild doesn't want you to melee because of heavy aoes, either they're stupid, or you suck and can't keep AR proc'd on AoE calls. Every time an AoE is called, I stay in and DPS, and my guild knows why. They know I have AR proc'd, because if I don't, I back out. There's no reason that you shouldn't be meleeing (is that a word?) continuously on a raid boss.Edited because I suck at font codes.

[Jeffmaster]

<cite>Gerrie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>brigands have been one of the most powerful classes available at level 50</p><p>YA</p><p>They easily matched the dps of assassins and wizards and so on.</p><p>NO</p><p>now people say they do only 7-8k dps, while assassins and co do over 10k+ dps, even swashbuckler seem to be closer to 10k</p><p>I want to meet the brigs that do that much DPS (impossible)...my top DPS in a raid was 4.5k and it matches what our other brig does..I average 3.5k..swashys being in the 4-5k range and our assassin in the 6-8k..and as a guild we hit peaks of 70k raid wide DPS (which i think is pretty good) so don't believe the numbers above.</p><p>also you cant use ruse on raids anymore because of one shotting and guilds dont like you to melee because of heavy aoes</p>I don't use it...personnal taste</blockquote>

[Jida]

<cite>Varuna@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>And to reiterate, there's no reason you should be using shenanigans on a raid mob. Lots of raid mobs heal when people die, and shenanigans tends to kill you. Also, if your guild doesn't want you to melee because of heavy aoes, either they're stupid, or you suck and can't keep AR proc'd on AoE calls. Every time an AoE is called, I stay in and DPS, and my guild knows why. They know I have AR proc'd, because if I don't, I back out. There's no reason that you shouldn't be meleeing (is that a word?) continuously on a raid boss.</blockquote>QFE,My raid leader know i stay in regardless.. and i specced safehouse in case the AE 1 shots me.And I guess its gear because I stay [Removed for Content] near 3.3k in my normal group and 3.8k in a buffed group... I think i need more masters too.. =(

[Vanisher123]

I'm level 28, and I have noticed when soloing i could take two no arrow blues before, Now i have trouble taking on 2 no arrow greens, might not be the update but its the only thing to have changed.

[Lyasa]

alot of brigand's dps in t6 was from the fast we didn't ahve to joust AE's and thus our dps went up relative to most other melee classes.in t7 it was from wis line and a great 1 hander and being able to ignore jousting most of the time. now we're starting to see the other classes surpass us greatly, since AR is no longer the amazingly OP'd skill that it used to be. no move has been made to bring our damage into line with others since KoS era, and it shows, especially at the end game when all are geared up. until then we are fairly balanced with others.(i'm not in VP or have a mythical epic, so take it all with a grain of salt, my opinion is formed off of what i see potential for in other classes vs what i can see in potentia for my own character)

[TheSpin]

<p>You need to realize that the assassin will simply not get that 10k dps parse without a brigand's debuffs.  Nobody brings more raid wide dps to a raid than a single brigand.</p><p>You add that with our already impressive dps numbers and other utilities and you are really underestimating the class.  BTW - Ruse actually lowers my dps in a raid because if it doesn't trigger the second I cast it I lose dps every second I'm layin on the floor waitin to get hit...plus it's risky.</p><p>This is coming from a brigand in a guild without their epics, but I regularly parse 4k+ on trash...and I'm generally in the top 5 in any encounter.</p>

[Gerrie]

<p>you know what s funny?</p><p>back when 50 was max level and the maxout toppplayer brigs bashed all the assassins and wizards dps in game, it was just the same in the forums.</p><p>we came here with parses of twice the damage most people said was max and the peps on the forum just denied it anyhow.</p><p> But that s the same in any class board. Topout players dont post their stats here because they dont want to get nerfed.</p><p>do brigs debuffs stack? or is it a waste to have more than 2 brigs in a raid when you can get assassins etc?</p><p>Now i havent parsed the 10k dps myself, So they might be wrong.</p><p>But with level 50 i ve done them myself dozens of times. Of course back then you could use ruse all the time and never had to backaway.</p>

[Gerrie]

<cite>TheSpin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You need to realize that the assassin will simply not get that 10k dps parse without a brigand's debuffs.  Nobody brings more raid wide dps to a raid than a single brigand.</p><p> <span style="color: #0000cc;">What about  when you got 2 brigs and 2 assassins and a brig and an assassin apply?</span></p><p>You add that with our already impressive dps numbers and other utilities and you are really underestimating the class.  BTW - Ruse actually lowers my dps in a raid because if it doesn't trigger the second I cast it I lose dps every second I'm layin on the floor waitin to get hit...plus it's risky.</p><p><span style="color: #0000ff;">know that feeling =)</span></p><p>This is coming from a brigand in a guild without their epics, but I regularly parse 4k+ on trash...and I'm generally in the top 5 in any encounter.</p></blockquote>

[Klaktar]

<cite>Gerrie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>you know what s funny?</p><p>back when 50 was max level and the maxout toppplayer brigs bashed all the assassins and wizards dps in game, it was just the same in the forums.</p><p>we came here with parses of twice the damage most people said was max and the peps on the forum just denied it anyhow.</p><p> But that s the same in any class board. Topout players dont post their stats here because they dont want to get nerfed.</p><p>do brigs debuffs stack? or is it a waste to have more than 2 brigs in a raid when you can get assassins etc?</p><p>Now i havent parsed the 10k dps myself, So they might be wrong.</p><p>But with level 50 i ve done them myself dozens of times. Of course back then you could use ruse all the time and never had to backaway.</p></blockquote>Bull.[I cannot control my vocabulary].Brigands had no method of massive DPS when 50 was the cap. No AR, no dispatch, no AA trees. We were a dual weild class with minimal damage output. put on two old school dual weild weapons and respec your AAs, and go "dps" with no AA points spent. Then consider the fact that your 1k parse is being done with combat arts that do more damage than T5 combat arts (comparing T8 CAs vs T8 mobs and T5 CAs vs. T5 mobs, of course...you know..damage per capita...or whatever).I played for a month before KoS launched and I could clearly see that looking back on my 1-50 days before AAs came out, and before I knew what AR was.As I said before, it's not that we're being nerfed, it's that other classes are being put back where they should be. Oh, and by the way in PR tonight I outparsed every other person in the raid on every fight, except Imzok's Revenge, where an assassin beat me by about 400 dps. So, I think the issue with your parses is...you. Not SoE, not other classes.Oh yeah, and all brigand debuffs stack except Jagged Blade and Dispatched. Not like that matters, as brigands can single-handedly debuff a mob's attack speed to it's cap. (Jagged Blade and a Turger's proc will do it...at least I think it's Turgers...I run Gracelessness so I don't remember). The advantage of having 2 brigands in a raid is more DPS, and increased amount of time with Dispatched up. Back in the KoS days I ran with 3 to 4 brigands every raid. Dispatch was up A LOT.Oh, and assassins parsing 10k DPS is due to VERY strict requirements with AA, Gear, Masters, and group/raid setup. If it's not perfect, they don't get 10k dps...and Brigands will most likely never hit 10k DPS in RoK.

[Trovic]

<cite>Goonch wrote:</cite><blockquote>So many things incorrect here. 1) Brigands didn't become a powerhouse until T6. Most servers had a dozen brigands at level 50 tops in T5. And we definitely weren't doing the top dps back then either. Most fighter classes, sorcerers, preds, and summoners all owned us. 2) If you are in the same group with the same buffs as assassins they should do more dps than you 100% of the time. 3) Who would use Shenanigans on a raid mob? Even on trash its pointless.</blockquote>I disagree completely with #2.. Assassins parse higher every 10 minutes only due to their big ability. In every group I've been in if there is a parse for every fight I will beat the Assassin unless all his abilities are up.

[Jeffmaster]

<cite>Trovic@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Goonch wrote:</cite><blockquote>So many things incorrect here.1) Brigands didn't become a powerhouse until T6. Most servers had a dozen brigands at level 50 tops in T5. And we definitely weren't doing the top dps back then either. Most fighter classes, sorcerers, preds, and summoners all owned us.2) If you are in the same group with the same buffs as assassins they should do more dps than you 100% of the time.3) Who would use Shenanigans on a raid mob? Even on trash its pointless.</blockquote>I disagree completely with #2.. Assassins parse higher every 10 minutes only due to their big ability. In every group I've been in if there is a parse for every fight I will beat the Assassin unless all his abilities are up.</blockquote>I got to disagree with you, a well played assassin will pawn a brigand in ANY fight. If you beat the assassin, they are slacking or just suck.

[Kegofbud]

<cite>Trovic@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Goonch wrote:</cite><blockquote>So many things incorrect here. 1) Brigands didn't become a powerhouse until T6. Most servers had a dozen brigands at level 50 tops in T5. And we definitely weren't doing the top dps back then either. Most fighter classes, sorcerers, preds, and summoners all owned us. 2) If you are in the same group with the same buffs as assassins they should do more dps than you 100% of the time. 3) Who would use Shenanigans on a raid mob? Even on trash its pointless.</blockquote>I disagree completely with #2.. Assassins parse higher every 10 minutes only due to their big ability. In every group I've been in if there is a parse for every fight I will beat the Assassin unless all his abilities are up.</blockquote>You can disagree if you want, but it's fact. If your assassin can't beat you on nearly every parse, given the same buffs as you, he isn't very good.

[Draks]

<b><span style="font-size: x-large;"><u>Play Style !!!</u></span></b>

[zorax15]

<cite>Gerrie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>now people say they do only 7-8k dps, while assassins and co do over 10k+ dps, even swashbuckler seem to be closer to 10k</p></blockquote><p>actually it' even worse. assasins do rather 20k+ while I am stuck at just 2-3k. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I really should use ruse more often I think to top the parses :/</p>

[Anfauglith]

<cite>Kicks@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gerrie wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>now people say they do only 7-8k dps, while assassins and co do over 10k+ dps, even swashbuckler seem to be closer to 10k</p></blockquote><p>actually it' even worse. assasins do rather 20k+ while I am stuck at just 2-3k. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></p><p>I really should use ruse more often I think to top the parses :/</p></blockquote>ROFL thanks kicks you really made my day!!! btw...yeah some assassins were reaching 15k+ dps (and some brigands 10k+) thanks to cursing coil that used to double ca damage and is now fixed.Now about dps I personaly usualy reach 4k dps while our other brigand barely reaches 3k with same buffs...which means playstyle makes a LOT of difference...if you know how to play and position then you gain ton of dps...on the same side our assassin does around 5.5k (the guild is tier 2 so no mythical yet and our setup is far from perfect).Now for Assassins, it's easy to realize they do more dps than us if they get benefit from out debuffs...you just need to examine their CA and see every single on of them does about 10-15% more raw damage than ours...that beeing said, a fully mastered brigand will beat a full ad3 assassin except when they use their 10mins recast on short fights.<span class="postbody">And Shenanigans...this spell has never been ment to be used in raids...it doesn't mean there's absolutly no way around to use it...but it's just not ment to be used like that...just like our stuns aren't ment for epics...on the other side....and concidering you can crit it for about 10k when you solo if your debuffs are on, I don't think anyone can disagree in saying it's one of our strongest solo ca (and still very good in groups).</span>

[zorax15]

<cite>Onucia@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>ROFL thanks zorax you really made my day!!! </blockquote>you're welcome <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Liyle]

My Brigand is only 35, but I am reading the portion about Ruse with interest. I never thought I would love playing this class as much as I do, but a friend in a guild I am planning to transfer to recommended Brigand as a class they lack so I thought I'd give it a shot. Right now I'm in a small non-raid guild but the one I'm building a Brigand for raids a couple times a week (why I am looking at them.) We used to raid within an alliance that eventually broke up so I understand what it's about, tho I was always a healer when I was raiding.Currently I use Ruse at any time when I solo but when in a group, only near the end of a fight. The discussion so far here doesn't mention using Ruse as a type of Pawn sacrifice on raids. Unless raids have changed dramatically since I was active, death on a raid isn't nearly as big a deal as death in a small group or duo is. It seems to me that anyone who is capable of grabbing aggro from a fully engaged but failing tank would be tremendously useful.... regardless of dying as a result. Is there something I'm missing? I've yet to take my little Rat Pirate raiding so this is not a rhetorical question.I am bringing up an Assassin parallel to my Brigand and I find her relationship within the group dynamic is very different, but I can't say that I see any particular advantage that isn't balanced by an advantage on the Brigand.

[zorax15]

<cite>Liyle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is there something I'm missing? </blockquote>Yes. Gaining aggro as a backstabber isn't very useful on raids. Lying on the floor waiting for ruse to proc wastes your dps. plus vs higher con mobs gaining aggro to use ruse is a one shot brigand

[Anfauglith]

<cite>Liyle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Currently I use Ruse at any time when I solo but when in a group, only near the end of a fight. The discussion so far here doesn't mention using Ruse as a type of Pawn sacrifice on raids. Unless raids have changed dramatically since I was active, death on a raid isn't nearly as big a deal as death in a small group or duo is. It seems to me that anyone who is capable of grabbing aggro from a fully engaged but failing tank would be tremendously useful.... regardless of dying as a result. Is there something I'm missing? I've yet to take my little Rat Pirate raiding so this is not a rhetorical question.</blockquote>There's 2 down side to it...first you're very likely to be one shoted...so you don't save much off the mt...and secondaly most epic nameds will heal for something going from 120k to 300k depending on mobs each time someone dies...so it's a bit of a problem to suicide like that...

[Liyle]

Ah! OK Thanks!