My Suggestion for Coercer Pets [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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KniteShayd

04-13-2008, 05:11 AM

As the title states, and knowing that I have been heard before regarding Illusionist pets, I make this suggestion to fix Coercer pets once and for all.Suggestion: Charm spells will function the same way as they have been, but will be an inverse of an Illusionist's Personae spells.What this means is you would go up to a mob, cast your charm spell on it, and rip the personae from that said mob. The charmed mob will not be able to be charmed by another Coercer as long as it is under another's control.The charmed mob will display a charm buff icon to let others know that the mob is charmed.The charm spell will last the duration of zone inhabitation of the caster or mob that was charmed. This means if the casters zones, dies, or camps, the spell is dropped. Also if the original mob is killed, your charmed personae would disappear.If the spell cancels, the personae will return back to the mob and the mob will not aggro the caster. The only time a charmed mob would aggro the caster is if it resisted charm multiple times and charm was cast repeatedly on it.The charm spell will still cost 3 concentration slots.The charm spell will scale the pet to caster's level. Mob's who are orange or red to the caster before charming, will have a higher resist rate of being charmed. This will also apply to raid mobs, but allows the coercer to have the same option's as an Illusionist in a raid encounter. (prt vs no pet)Charming a mob that is already being engaged by another party will not break the encounter. The mob involved will just simply be duplicated and be under the Coercer's control. PvP Coercer's will not be able to charm a mob in this fashion.Charm will work the same PvP, as it does now, vs other players.************************************************** ************************************************** ****************** What are the chances and feasibility of this being coded and implemented? And what do you already existing Coercers think about this suggestion?

Jeepned2

04-13-2008, 02:30 PM

<cite>Bandorn@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>As the title states, and knowing that I have been heard before regarding Illusionist pets, I make this suggestion to fix Coercer pets once and for all.Suggestion: Charm spells will function the same way as they have been, but will be an inverse of an Illusionist's Personae spells.What this means is you would go up to a mob, cast your charm spell on it, and rip the personae from that said mob. The charmed mob will not be able to be charmed by another Coercer as long as it is under another's control. Like there are enough Coercer's around for this to ever be a problem.The charmed mob will display a charm buff icon to let others know that the mob is charmed. Ok, I see a charm icon on a mob and I want to mess with the Coercer community, I just kill that mob and some poor Coercer in the middle of a fight in another area, all of a sudden his pet disappears. So far, not liking this idea.The charm spell will last the duration of zone inhabitation of the caster or mob that was charmed. This means if the casters zones, dies, or camps, the spell is dropped. Also if the original mob is killed, your charmed personae would disappear. See one above.If the spell cancels, the personae will return back to the mob and the mob will not aggro the caster. The only time a charmed mob would aggro the caster is if it resisted charm multiple times and charm was cast repeatedly on it.The charm spell will still cost 3 concentration slots.The charm spell will scale the pet to caster's level. Mob's who are orange or red to the caster before charming, will have a higher resist rate of being charmed. This will also apply to raid mobs, but allows the coercer to have the same option's as an Illusionist in a raid encounter. (prt vs no pet) What raid is going to leave a mob behind just so that the Coercer can have a pet? When someone new to the raid would still have to get around it to meet up with the raid? And what raid is really going to want the Coercer to not provide some DPS buffs or hate debuffs becasue all of our Concentration slots are used up with a mediocre, now heroic pet?Charming a mob that is already being engaged by another party will not break the encounter. The mob involved will just simply be duplicated and be under the Coercer's control. PvP Coercer's will not be able to charm a mob in this fashion.Charm will work the same PvP, as it does now, vs other players. Sorry, sounds all just a little too complicated. I would rather they allow us to charm heroic mobs in raid zones (almost every zone has some, if not add some) and remove the Concentration requirement for any pet, just like they have done for everyone else. If we can get a pet without giving up buffs the other communities may even go for it. But telling a Wizard that they don't get thier 25% hate reduction just so I can have a pet will go over like a fart in church.************************************************** ************************************************** ****************** What are the chances and feasibility of this being coded and implemented? And what do you already existing Coercers think about this suggestion?</blockquote>

Oriax

04-13-2008, 03:10 PM

What really get's me stirred up is that summoners can summon pets using only 1 concentration slot. Not only that but a Necromancer can use their Charm Undead spell to charm undead mobs for the cost of no concentration at all!

Rijacki

04-13-2008, 06:00 PM

<cite>Strossus@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>What really get's me stirred up is that summoners can summon pets using only 1 concentration slot. Not only that but a Necromancer can use their Charm Undead spell to charm undead mobs for the cost of no concentration at all! </blockquote>Necros can have a charmed pet -and- a summoned pet all for that one concentration required for their summoned pet. Sure, it's only undead, but there are a lot of places you run into undead thingies. Their duration isn't real high, though, but, from the times I grouped with a necro who charmed -in group-, it looked like they got full duration.

Murc

04-14-2008, 06:45 AM

I don't understand why the Coercer's Charm has a 'chance of breaking". why not let the Coercer charm a pet and then simply keep it until he decides to get rid of it? restrict the Pet Usage to Humanoids, and then just let the charm be a permanent one, until the Coercer releases it. worked for Sorcerers in DAoC just fine. (I'm getting read to start a Coercer to try it out, and this was one thing i Read that I did not understand).

KniteShayd

04-14-2008, 07:16 AM

<cite> My response is in Pink</cite><cite></cite><cite></cite><cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bandorn@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>As the title states, and knowing that I have been heard before regarding Illusionist pets, I make this suggestion to fix Coercer pets once and for all.Suggestion: Charm spells will function the same way as they have been, but will be an inverse of an Illusionist's Personae spells.What this means is you would go up to a mob, cast your charm spell on it, and rip the personae from that said mob. The charmed mob will not be able to be charmed by another Coercer as long as it is under another's control. Like there are enough Coercer's around for this to ever be a problem.If Coercer's had permanent pets, then there would be more. Guaranteed.The charmed mob will display a charm buff icon to let others know that the mob is charmed. Ok, I see a charm icon on a mob and I want to mess with the Coercer community, I just kill that mob and some poor Coercer in the middle of a fight in another area, all of a sudden his pet disappears. So far, not liking this idea.Hmm. good point. perhaps then It would disappear at the end of the encounter? Or maybe, It can just stay permanent in zone regardless if the mob dies, but can't be double charmed by another corecer if it's contested or quest mob.The charm spell will last the duration of zone inhabitation of the caster or mob that was charmed. This means if the casters zones, dies, or camps, the spell is dropped. Also if the original mob is killed, your charmed personae would disappear. See one above.Ditto.If the spell cancels, the personae will return back to the mob and the mob will not aggro the caster. The only time a charmed mob would aggro the caster is if it resisted charm multiple times and charm was cast repeatedly on it.The charm spell will still cost 3 concentration slots.The charm spell will scale the pet to caster's level. Mob's who are orange or red to the caster before charming, will have a higher resist rate of being charmed. This will also apply to raid mobs, but allows the coercer to have the same option's as an Illusionist in a raid encounter. (prt vs no pet) What raid is going to leave a mob behind just so that the Coercer can have a pet? When someone new to the raid would still have to get around it to meet up with the raid? And what raid is really going to want the Coercer to not provide some DPS buffs or hate debuffs becasue all of our Concentration slots are used up with a mediocre, now heroic pet?Not leave a mob behind. the Coercer could charm the mob before the fight. Or maybe a coercer could preserve the mind it had previously controlled, and summon it to that location.Charming a mob that is already being engaged by another party will not break the encounter. The mob involved will just simply be duplicated and be under the Coercer's control. PvP Coercer's will not be able to charm a mob in this fashion.Charm will work the same PvP, as it does now, vs other players. Sorry, sounds all just a little too complicated. I would rather they allow us to charm heroic mobs in raid zones (almost every zone has some, if not add some) and remove the Concentration requirement for any pet, just like they have done for everyone else. If we can get a pet without giving up buffs the other communities may even go for it. But telling a Wizard that they don't get thier 25% hate reduction just so I can have a pet will go over like a fart in church.May I remind you that illusionists still have the conc requirement, so it would be an imbalance to remove it at this time. Also, in PvP, Coercers could become way OP if they had no conc requirement and could buff the pet to high hell. I wouldn't care eiter way if it made the pet equal to summoned pets though, in duration, ability and power. But I take it that you at least agree with some of my suggestions, which is good. Agreement or constructive criticism was what I aimed for... To maybe get the ball rolling for other players.************************************************** ************************************************** ****************** What are the chances and feasibility of this being coded and implemented? And what do you already existing Coercers think about this suggestion?</blockquote></blockquote>Or maybe a coercer could preserve the mind it had previously controlled, and summon it to their current location. Or what of this?

Grimlux

04-14-2008, 08:15 AM

Interesting Idea. I got to thinking while working on my epic of such a fantastic idea for coercer mechanics. Its a fairy tale mechanic most likely but we already have a few pieces already in place, such as spellblade.What if instead of the Charm mob, "its my pet" mechanic, we had some sort of essence or soul we sucked into us. (Lysandre) We then get a buff instead that lasts about as long as charm would. It would act similarly to possession but w/out dying 20 seconds later. So while this buff is active depending on the type of mob we have soul siphoned or sucked their personae's into our own we gain the abilities of the mob were fighting. (Scaled down to an appropriate DPS/etc) We still get to keep our abilities and control of our character (possibly just give our regular abilities a longer cast time while were combined with the soul of the mob we just possessed/siphoned). We just get a new hotbar for personae reasons, and we can use those skills as our own for the duration of the buff. We could also possibly take in some limited time mitigation to truly be a spellblade caster.For example. If we took the personae of a caster mob we could gain one or two Direct damage spells for the duration. If we took the personae of a scout pet we could gain a couple positional attacks, maybe a stun and a backstab. If we took the personae a fighter mob we could gain some mitigation and taunts. See where im going? If this is how coercers were, I think we wouldnt be the most underplayed class anymore.Our normal charm pet is scaled back a bit in DPS and Hitpoints, the skills of the personae or whatever you want to call it would be scaled back from being over powered. It would give us enough DPS in Groups/Solo/ and Raiding to be comparaeable to other mages again. Also, Ive been doing the Age of Conan Beta. One of the mage classes works similarly to this idea. Minus the whole turning into a demon thing.

Nor

04-14-2008, 09:15 AM

I like the idea, more or less.What about raid zones - where do you get the mobs to charm?What about when "charm" breaks and you need another pet (in a raid zone)?When soloing, you can auto attack or dumbfire your pet for ranged spells/skills - but if you "charm" them with those ideas, your recast timer should actually be shorter - as right now you can both cast at the same time.Interesting idea though...

Sigunn

04-14-2008, 10:46 AM

I thought we already tried and disliked the idea of pets returning to their original loc when charm breaks... NOT a good idea.I do not have an issue with pets breaking. I like the risk vs reward thing. I am still upset about the 50% nerf to RoK pets though. My pet cost 3 conc and it can kill me - a necro's summoned pet cannot - therefore my pet should be better than his. So I do not think the OP.s idea sounds all that great - I like the pets as they are - if only they were a bit stronger.

Rijacki

04-14-2008, 11:29 AM

I don't really like the soul-siphon or whatever idea. I've been pondering why I don't like it, but.. I just don't.I do like charming a something and sending it against its friends (like charming a mama bear and sending her to kill her cubs) 'cause it lets me free a wicked streak. If it was merely a ghost or soul of the critter, the impact isn't the same.I dislike the idea of having my pet die because someone across zone decided to kill the original. It doesn't matter if it has a "charmed" icon, it would still be fair game and would get dead because someone wanted it or needed it or happened to think the "charmed" was a special marker indicating it has better than normal loot (i.e. why players killed named that are quest only mobs without any possible loot) or that they would get achievement for it or even that they could mess with some coercer elsewhere in the zone (while the smallest percentage of reasons the pet would get killed, it still would exist 'cause there are wankers in the world).I know the idea was an attempt to get around the "this target cannot be mezzed" but I don't think its very workable.BUT, as for charm and the concentration and the breakability (even with 5 dots of charm acheivement -and- a master I).. I think the chance for charm to break before the duration is far too high and far too capricious, especially in the lower levels. The risk does keep you on your toes but the reward has been diluted so many times it's not funny.What I would like to see... 1 or more arrow down - charm is unbreakable but the target will do the lesser damage of a 1 or fewer arrow mob that he is.no arrows - charm is virtually unbreakable and the damage is "normal"1 arrow - charm is a bit more risky but the damage is a bit higher than no arrows, the target drops to "non-heroic" if it was formerly. Charms breakability would be about the same breakability it is now vs anything.2 arrows - charm is a bit more risky, yet, the target still drops to a "non-heroic" but damages better than a 2 arrow and the breakabilty would be about just a little more than it currently is.3 arrow heroic - charm is a lot more risky but the damage is a lot higher, too. The target stays heroic but the risk of breaking rises substantially (risk vs reward) and the target gets a mental resist buff when charm breaks (i.e. more resistant to stun and mez, too). In addition, charm duration is less than normal (i.e. 1/2). If the pet is killed or charm is dropped, the coercer is stunned for a -short- time (reducing the ability to "pet-churn", I know).epic - charm is even more risky but the damage is considerably higher. Like heroic only with an increased buff vs mental and a longer stun when it's killed or charm dropped.AND only 2 concentration, not 3 (reduce the illusionist pet to 2, too).AND the mythical giving charm without concentration (to match the illusionists'<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Illine

04-14-2008, 12:24 PM

Your soul eating thing makes me think of the diablo 2 druid. Where he shapeshifted into an animal and had new habilities.We're not shapeshifters, we're coercers. We charm mobs to make them do the dirty work we don't want to do, we don't change into them to do the dirty work.I like how it is, just breaks too often, even with master charm and risk vs rewards not good, especially when the charm breaks when you just got an add. It's the game I know.after being stuned if the pet dies would be awfull, because we would die right away if we didn't root or mezz the encounter.the problem here is that SOE has tried to make casters less solo kings. I remember in KoS, how it was easy for casters who could root to solo, and coercers/illu were the best. they nerfed us but coercer could still solo very well. So what do they do? they nerf our primary source of dps when soloing which means our pet. now our pet sucks and the charm always breaks really easily even with a master charm and 5 points in improve charm. SO I don't know, maybe in the improve charm AA they could increase the resist AND the efficiency of the pet?I dream I know

chily

04-15-2008, 05:53 AM

<cite>Bandorn@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>As the title states, and knowing that I have been heard before regarding Illusionist pets, I make this suggestion to fix Coercer pets once and for all.Suggestion: Charm spells will function the same way as they have been, but will be an inverse of an Illusionist's Personae spells.What this means is you would go up to a mob, cast your charm spell on it, and rip the personae from that said mob. and who kills the mob then? that is the most awfull idea i know of sry <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The charmed mob will not be able to be charmed by another Coercer as long as it is under another's control. for 20 secs maybe okThe charmed mob will display a charm buff icon to let others know that the mob is charmed. erm that's why we have illusion form'sThe charm spell will last the duration of zone inhabitation of the caster or mob that was charmed. This means if the casters zones, dies, or camps, the spell is dropped. Also if the original mob is killed, your charmed personae would disappear. rofl grats our pet ar total useless then you wouldn't be able to charm a pet a really coz you normaly pick the firsst best one and those get killed from groups passing by tooIf the spell cancels, the personae will return back to the mob and the mob will not aggro the caster. The only time a charmed mob would aggro the caster is if it resisted charm multiple times and charm was cast repeatedly on it. boring only a pet that can kill me is a good petThe charm spell will still cost 3 concentration slots.The charm spell will scale the pet to caster's level. Mob's who are orange or red to the caster before charming, will have a higher resist rate of being charmed. This will also apply to raid mobs, but allows the coercer to have the same option's as an Illusionist in a raid encounter. (prt vs no pet) omg no ! you can charm a mob that is higher then you and that pet is a really decent for as tank pet.Charming a mob that is already being engaged by another party will not break the encounter. The mob involved will just simply be duplicated and be under the Coercer's control. PvP Coercer's will not be able to charm a mob in this fashion. erm you wrote above that if the orginal mob dies the pet des tooCharm will work the same PvP, as it does now, vs other players.************************************************** ************************************************** ****************** What are the chances and feasibility of this being coded and implemented? And what do you already existing Coercers think about this suggestion?</blockquote>The suggestion is awfull. i like the charm in the way it is atm. it maybe takes some time to find a good pet but it's worth it.

KniteShayd

04-18-2008, 05:14 AM

well in retrospect maybe the mob dieing and killing your ripped personae is a bad idea. So even if the original mob does die, you keep the part of the controlled mind until you die, zone, or release it.From the new changes they just posted, it sounds like possession might work like this.

Illine

04-18-2008, 05:49 AM

yeah but possession is a 20 sec duration spell.Charm is a 30 min duration spell. Not the same. For me possesson will more act like the AA line end spell, a short duration pet (dumbfire?). charm is sometimes annoying coz it breaks ... a lot ... but wouldn't trade it for the world, that's what make our class fun

Jeepned2

04-20-2008, 08:16 AM

<cite>Bandorn@Venekor wrote:</cite> <blockquote>Charm will work the same PvP, as it does now, vs other players. Sorry, sounds all just a little too complicated. I would rather they allow us to charm heroic mobs in raid zones (almost every zone has some, if not add some) and remove the Concentration requirement for any pet, just like they have done for everyone else. If we can get a pet without giving up buffs the other communities may even go for it. But telling a Wizard that they don't get thier 25% hate reduction just so I can have a pet will go over like a fart in church.May I remind you that illusionists still have the conc requirement, so it would be an imbalance to remove it at this time. Also, in PvP, Coercers could become way OP if they had no conc requirement and could buff the pet to high hell. I wouldn't care eiter way if it made the pet equal to summoned pets though, in duration, ability and power. But I take it that you at least agree with some of my suggestions, which is good. Agreement or constructive criticism was what I aimed for... To maybe get the ball rolling for other players.************************************************** ************************************************** ****************** What are the chances and feasibility of this being coded and implemented? And what do you already existing Coercers think about this suggestion?</blockquote>Ummm Do PVP Coercers get buffs that I don't? Let's see, hate, dps and .....? Gee, I can can do that now with my pet now. What I was talking about is in a raid situation. No way is the guild going to want me to give up three buffs (either DPS or De-hate), just so I can have a pet. Not unless that pet is godlike and does just a ton of damage on it's own. The only way we would be able to have a charmed pet in a raid zone is if the 3 concentration slot requirement is removed. Otherwise this whole discussion is moot.

KniteShayd

04-20-2008, 11:13 AM

<cite>Jeepned2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Bandorn@Venekor wrote:</cite> <blockquote>Charm will work the same PvP, as it does now, vs other players. Sorry, sounds all just a little too complicated. I would rather they allow us to charm heroic mobs in raid zones (almost every zone has some, if not add some) and remove the Concentration requirement for any pet, just like they have done for everyone else. If we can get a pet without giving up buffs the other communities may even go for it. But telling a Wizard that they don't get thier 25% hate reduction just so I can have a pet will go over like a fart in church.May I remind you that illusionists still have the conc requirement, so it would be an imbalance to remove it at this time. Also, in PvP, Coercers could become way OP if they had no conc requirement and could buff the pet to high hell. I wouldn't care eiter way if it made the pet equal to summoned pets though, in duration, ability and power. But I take it that you at least agree with some of my suggestions, which is good. Agreement or constructive criticism was what I aimed for... To maybe get the ball rolling for other players.************************************************** ************************************************** ****************** What are the chances and feasibility of this being coded and implemented? And what do you already existing Coercers think about this suggestion?</blockquote>Ummm Do PVP Coercers get buffs that I don't? Let's see, hate, dps and .....? Gee, I can can do that now with my pet now. What I was talking about is in a raid situation. No way is the guild going to want me to give up three buffs (either DPS or De-hate), just so I can have a pet. Not unless that pet is godlike and does just a ton of damage on it's own. The only way we would be able to have a charmed pet in a raid zone is if the 3 concentration slot requirement is removed. Otherwise this whole discussion is moot.</blockquote>I speek from a blancing standpoint, since this game is obsessed with it. Illus must choose buffs or pet. Most, if not all will go buffs. Same would apply to coercers.I understand where your coming from. Who knows, if they implemented something like this, then maybe they'll add the no conc to the coercer epic...