Holding aggro question...

[denmom]

I've a L45 Paladin and duo with my spouse's L44 Warden.What I've been noticing a lot lately is when I pull, even after both taunts and a good strike, I tend to lose aggro when I pause to put up the ward.  When I don't use the ward and just straight dps and cast, aggro sticks like glue.  I'd like to use the ward more, but I don't want to lose the aggro.  I don't have Amends yet but do have and do use the L35 Atonement.Maybe I'm timing it wrong, I'm not sure.  I'm also partly sure it's that damned healer aggro that's been making its ugly face known.  I get that like mad on my L80 Warden and other healers, even when I don't heal or cast.  Mob makes a beeline right for them.How do you guys wrangle casting the ward and holding aggro?And please, be constructive.  I'm not interested in class politics, I just want to figure this problem out.Thanks in advance!

[NANEEJE]

Not entirely positive, but doesn't a warden ward? Meaning that when you pull, there is already hate gain on your warden. Remember, it's harder to steal it, then it is to gain it. Can I suggest you pull with legionairre's smite when possible, it tends to stun mob, giving you just a second more to get a strike with bow, taunt, auto attack, then taunt. That should do it, and remember, if nothing works, suck it up, cause when you get amends, this is a mute point! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[denmom]

<cite>NANEEJE wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not entirely positive, but doesn't a warden ward? Meaning that when you pull, there is already hate gain on your warden. Remember, it's harder to steal it, then it is to gain it. Can I suggest you pull with legionairre's smite when possible, it tends to stun mob, giving you just a second more to get a strike with bow, taunt, auto attack, then taunt. That should do it, and remember, if nothing works, suck it up, cause when you get amends, this is a mute point! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>No, shaman do (Mystic/Defiler) and clerics have reactives (Templar/Inquisitor).Wardens have hots (heal over time), but the Warden I duo with never casts until well after I pull and get going into dps and casting.The healer aggro is a big problem throughout the tiers currently...it came in with EoF and has been a real pain since.  I've a L80 Warden and can get aggro even when I don't heal at all.  Tonight in an instance, the tank lost aggro and the mobs all headed right for my healer, ignoring the mages who were casting on it.Thanks for the suggestions!

[Apocroph]

In that case, I'd recommend you drop a stun then throw up your ward.  Mob won't be going anywhere while you're casting, and I've never known a mob to enjoy being stunned.Beyond that, the only thing you can really adjust to make noticeable impact is the warden's timing.

[denmom]

<cite>kuraan wrote:</cite><blockquote>In that case, I'd recommend you drop a stun then throw up your ward.  Mob won't be going anywhere while you're casting, and I've never known a mob to enjoy being stunned.Beyond that, the only thing you can really adjust to make noticeable impact is the warden's timing.</blockquote>/nods Alrighty...I tend to lead off with the kick and shield bash, but I'll give that a go.Thanks!

[Caetrel]

<p>Heh, this was puzzling me and I realized you don't have Amends yet.  At level 49 your life will get easier, get the master if you can.</p><p> Do you preward yourself every pull?  That will trigger before the warden's stuff and help a bit.</p><p>Also make a macro to intercede (level 34, get that master too if you don't already) on the warden.  It has a long duration and you can keep it up on her as long as she is close with little distraction from hitting your other buttons.  It is a somewhat useful tool for getting aggro back as well.</p><p>The overall problem of heals and ward hurting aggro is a classic issue with this class.  Too many times in raids I can't ward or heal because. with interrupts weighed in, it's just not practical.  Amends will make it better though, duoing with that you should never lose aggro again.</p>

[denmom]

<cite>Fidelus@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Heh, this was puzzling me and I realized you don't have Amends yet.  At level 49 your life will get easier, get the master if you can.</p><p> Do you preward yourself every pull?  That will trigger before the warden's stuff and help a bit.</p><p>Also make a macro to intercede (level 34, get that master too if you don't already) on the warden.  It has a long duration and you can keep it up on her as long as she is close with little distraction from hitting your other buttons.  It is a somewhat useful tool for getting aggro back as well.</p><p>The overall problem of heals and ward hurting aggro is a classic issue with this class.  Too many times in raids I can't ward or heal because. with interrupts weighed in, it's just not practical.  Amends will make it better though, duoing with that you should never lose aggro again.</p></blockquote>Yah, I've the L35 version of Amends.  Probably doesn't help that it's ten levels ago either.My spouse has a L80 Paladin and I've seen what Amends does.  I've hit a mob on my Warden and seen the aggro insta-bounce to Xylin.But I've seen some weird things with it, too.  I've told this story before elsewhere.  The three of us, Zerker, Paladin, Warden, were in Field of Bone trying to get the named skorpikis to pop for the quest.  Zerker was MT, Paladin OT, I had Amends since I'm the healer.  Paladin was where it spawns by the ramp leading up to the giant area, Zerker and I were by the tower killing scorpions.  Spouse starts laughing and shows me what's funny: kicked a bug, it shot off fast with me as its target, the leash yanked it back and it reset.  Spent about 15 or so minutes hitting bug after bug and they kept targeting me waaay over by the tower and making a beeline until the leash yanked them back.  During this time, neither the Zerker or I were fighting, I wasn't healing or casting.The healer aggro problem happens even when the healer does <b><i>nothing</i></b>.  I don't pre-cast heals that often on my Warden, I twitch but will wait for the Zerker to get back to us and start up.  In the pull, the mobs have gone right for me even with Amends on.  You'd think Amends would flip it to head to the Paladin.  I've taken to targeting the mob that the Zerker or Paladin is about to pull to see when I get aggro so I know to hold off healing and not make it harder for them to get the mob off.  8 out of 10 times the mob will target me.The healer aggro kicked in with EoF and has gotten worse with RoK.  I'm seeing aggro with pre-healing, which is to be expected, aggro without pre-healing, which makes no sense.  I've seen single targets and group pulls where the healer is the target even when the mages let loose with all thier spells and the tank is tossing Rescue and all their taunts and CAs and still can't get all the aggro off.Me, I've taken to being real fast with my Warden's dethreat.  Yah, it roots the mobs and such, but gives the tank that few seconds to gain aggro back.Anyhow, I'm rambling, sorry...thanks for listening. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Tames]

<p>Pre self ward, cast your two taunts <i>on the run</i>, 2 fast stuns, Hammer Ground also. Use Rescue if agro shifts. Fast DD are good also after this.</p><p>Agro can shift from the pre-warders to DPS later in the fight so be aware of this. Use your current 'Amends' on who the mobs are going for. Some mobs might be programmed to go for healers first, it might be the group buffs? This shouldnt happen if you are pulling with taunts or a decent nuke. Prox pulling is trickier but you can self preward and cast taunts on the run heading back to the group. Put Spike Adorn on your shoulders, every bit of agro helps and proccing gear helps.</p><p>When you get Sigil pre cast for tuff pulls along with pre ward.</p><p>Nukers shouldnt cast their biggest nukes up front either, give you a chance to get agro first.</p><p>Healers can load a lower level Ward and use that to pre ward if required also.</p>

[Prrasha]

I'm unfamiliar with the "leashed bugs" story, but I did see 2 things in there that could explain your "healer aggro".1) It was a Warden.  Spores buff.  If that procs on a body pull, the warden "healed" the tank before anything else happened.2) If those "bugs" are mobs that spawn on your group for some quest purpose (or if they're non-attackable NPCs until something happens), it doesn't matter who spawns or triggers them.  In fact, autospawning mobs seem to like to attack the weakest member of the group (lowest level, least tank-like)... I was out as mentored-to-55-paladin in LFay with a 55 wizard and 54 troubador yesterday.  Only the pally was on the Raincaller quest, and the auto-spawning werewolf pack almost always ran straight for the troubador, even if he was the furthest away.

[denmom]

<cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm unfamiliar with the "leashed bugs" story, but I did see 2 things in there that could explain your "healer aggro".1) It was a Warden.  Spores buff.  If that procs on a body pull, the warden "healed" the tank before anything else happened.2) If those "bugs" are mobs that spawn on your group for some quest purpose (or if they're non-attackable NPCs until something happens), it doesn't matter who spawns or triggers them.  In fact, autospawning mobs seem to like to attack the weakest member of the group (lowest level, least tank-like)... I was out as mentored-to-55-paladin in LFay with a 55 wizard and 54 troubador yesterday.  Only the pally was on the Raincaller quest, and the auto-spawning werewolf pack almost always ran straight for the troubador, even if he was the furthest away.</blockquote>The Paladin didn't have spores or the pierce/slash/crush buff or thorns ds, those were all on the Zerker MT.  The only thing the Paladin had was the wis buff.  When the scorpions were kicked by the Paladin, Zerker and I were at the tower and <b><i>not</i></b> fighting.  We were in a non-aggro spot away from anything that could aggro us, the Paladin was on the other side by the ramp that leads up to the giants' area where the name spawns.  I never should have gotten aggro in the first place, but it did happen.These are the scorpions that roam around the Tower in Field of Bone, where the named skorpiki spawns for the Drogan faction quest you can get from a small clipboard on the wall of the building by the sokokar post.  They're always up, aren't spawned for anything, just your average yard mobs.But your comment about the spores kicking in could be why the aggro hits the Warden when the Zerker MT pulls.  But I still get aggro when the Paladin pulls, and the Paladin in our trio does not have spores.  It just makes no sense and I have no idea what's doing this.  Other healers (chain and plate) have said similar things.  I don't run Infusion from the Int line either.Ah well.  "Working as intended", I guess.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[denmom]

<cite>Tamesan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Pre self ward, cast your two taunts <i>on the run</i>, 2 fast stuns, Hammer Ground also. Use Rescue if agro shifts. Fast DD are good also after this.</p><p>Agro can shift from the pre-warders to DPS later in the fight so be aware of this. Use your current 'Amends' on who the mobs are going for. Some mobs might be programmed to go for healers first, it might be the group buffs? This shouldnt happen if you are pulling with taunts or a decent nuke. Prox pulling is trickier but you can self preward and cast taunts on the run heading back to the group. Put Spike Adorn on your shoulders, every bit of agro helps and proccing gear helps.</p><p>When you get Sigil pre cast for tuff pulls along with pre ward.</p><p>Nukers shouldnt cast their biggest nukes up front either, give you a chance to get agro first.</p><p>Healers can load a lower level Ward and use that to pre ward if required also.</p></blockquote>Ah, I don't taunt on the run.  I should figure out what can be used on the run and what can't.  I do put Atonement on the Warden or whomever will generate the most hate in the fight.  I usually go thru one or two fights to watch and see where hate goes, I don't assume it'll be the mage or scout or healer, and then shift it around as needed.Aye, it was suggested it could be spores buff proc'ing.  I'm going to experiment a bit and see what happens when the tank doesn't have spores.  I'm not informed as well on the chain and plate healers, but if they have something similar, that could be the crux of the whole 'healer aggro' thing.  The usual folks I run with when I tank fortunately know <i><b>when</b></i> to nuke and when to wait for aggro to stick.Thanks much!

[Tames]

<p>You can also kick on the run, this KB, DD taunts and stuns and gives you a chance to get back without being hit. I normally cast hammer ground while turning to knock it down again while I turn to face it and then hit it with sheild bash. If you pull multis Hammer Ground is very handy especially with mobs that stun or stifle as you can generate agro with fast AE before they cast on you.]</p><p>You can cast Verdict while running in/out also, depending on whether you want a Green AE to go off in case other mobs might social agro.</p><p>Pre casting Sigil can be the best plan if its a tuff pull or Multis are expected.</p>

[Jrral]

<cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm unfamiliar with the "leashed bugs" story, but I did see 2 things in there that could explain your "healer aggro".</blockquote>I was the 'zerker there. Spores and the Barbcoat line were on me, and we were far enough away from the pallie that we should've been out of buff range (we had most of the Field of Bone between us and her). And the pallie was doing direct damage to the scorpions and they were still turning to head for the healer <i>after</i> being hit by the pally.I've, in fact, noticed some aggro issues in general. In a group of 4, for instance, when the mob goes for the healer, the healer pops off their dethreat and I pop off Rescue, both my taunts <i>and</i> my hate-increase CA, there should be no way that mob isn't aggro'd on me again. Rescue bumps position on the hate list, and with 4 there's not enough entries on the list to leave room for anyone above me after it gets done. Yet again and again I see the mobs sticking to the healer under those conditions.

[Arkinon]

You only get amends once so you want to try and get it as a master if you can find it. it will transfer a set amount of aggro no matter the level. I usuall start off the pull with my self ward (for pre heal aggro) a shield bash (for aggro and stun) then my taunts. the other problem is if she is not letting you establish aggro or if she is attacking as soon as you pull. Tell her to give you a sec to get a taunt or 2 off or create a macro that lets her or your party know when they can start to dps. You will find this will be a common problem in groups is that there will always be somebody who wants to jump the gun and start in on a mob full bore before you have even had a chance to establish.

[denmom]

<cite>Arkinon wrote:</cite><blockquote>You only get amends once so you want to try and get it as a master if you can find it. it will transfer a set amount of aggro no matter the level. I usuall start off the pull with my self ward (for pre heal aggro) a shield bash (for aggro and stun) then my taunts. the other problem is if she is not letting you establish aggro or if she is attacking as soon as you pull. Tell her to give you a sec to get a taunt or 2 off or create a macro that lets her or your party know when they can start to dps. You will find this will be a common problem in groups is that there will always be somebody who wants to jump the gun and start in on a mob full bore before you have even had a chance to establish.</blockquote>Yah, found one on broker, 50p. >_<Did some research, found the mob it drops off of, going to hunt it until it gives me what I want.No, my healer isn't attacking or healing before I stick aggro.  He's very good about waiting for me to come back on the pull to where I want to fight.  The others I usually group with are also very good about waiting for me to stick aggro.What made me start this thread is this:  I can unload all the CA and spell attacks and have aggro stick like glue.  The moment I pause in the middle of that to cast my ward, I can lose aggro to someone else.I've stopped using my ward in duo and grouping because of the above.  I really don't like doing that because I know from experience as a healer that the ward helps against damage.It just occured to me...the others I run with are mentored...that probably plays a large part in this.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Prrasha]

<cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>It just occured to me...the others I run with are mentored...that probably plays a large part in this.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>That is actually a very big difference.  The extra effects and procs on higher-level gear, the other spell lines than a "normal" level X character wouldn't have, and the pile of extra AA abilities all add up.  I had my level 70 illusionist in DFC mentored down to the high 40s in a pickup group, and pretty much tanked the whole zone.  Only time the guardian tanked was when I held back (a lot) or deaggroed the mobs back onto him.  (In my defense... half the group was mentored down from 70-ish, and the guardian was the lowest level and in completely crappy gear, so the healer didn't mind.)

[denmom]

<cite>Prrasha wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>It just occured to me...the others I run with are mentored...that probably plays a large part in this.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>That is actually a very big difference.  The extra effects and procs on higher-level gear, the other spell lines than a "normal" level X character wouldn't have, and the pile of extra AA abilities all add up.  I had my level 70 illusionist in DFC mentored down to the high 40s in a pickup group, and pretty much tanked the whole zone.  Only time the guardian tanked was when I held back (a lot) or deaggroed the mobs back onto him.  (In my defense... half the group was mentored down from 70-ish, and the guardian was the lowest level and in completely crappy gear, so the healer didn't mind.)</blockquote>The Wizard we'll trio with is L62 to my L45 and is in mc'd and ad 3'd as I am.  Now and then an Assassin who's L75 or so.I'm slow...I should have factored that in.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Meirril]

when your mentored to the point your gear is showing a mentored effect, as well as the spells you are casting, your more or less considered to be using fabled versions of this equipment at a lower tier. It doesn't matter what grade they are in your own tier, they just perform better than the stats would indicate.

[DVang]

<p>I almost always stun before I cast my ward.  It helps prevent interruption of the longer cast anyway.  As a paladin you've got 2 good stuns with the kick and the shield bash, both work well.  Another thing to consider is that a paladin's main single-target taunt is over-time.  You might ask the others to avoid using any big CAs/Spells until the mob is down to at least 3/4 health to try to build up your aggro.</p><p> You could also check your AAs.  I went STR line for the haste and +hate and noticed a significant increase in ease of aggro management.</p>

[denmom]

<cite>DVang wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I almost always stun before I cast my ward.  It helps prevent interruption of the longer cast anyway.  As a paladin you've got 2 good stuns with the kick and the shield bash, both work well.  Another thing to consider is that a paladin's main single-target taunt is over-time.  You might ask the others to avoid using any big CAs/Spells until the mob is down to at least 3/4 health to try to build up your aggro.</p><p> You could also check your AAs.  I went STR line for the haste and +hate and noticed a significant increase in ease of aggro management.</p></blockquote>I usually do kick and shield first, taunt, ward.  Or if I'm running into a group, group taunt, two aes and forego the warding and leaving my health in the capable hands of the Warden I run with.  I'll pop the ward when I can in the thick of all that.The Wiz and Assassin I'll group with, tho much higher than me, do wait for me to stick aggro, as does the Warden before he starts casting.I've gone down Str line to the end, but I didn't take the hate gain.  I did have it once, but I didn't see much of a change.  I'll try it again once I get the other lines I'm filling out done.But I'm sticking aggro a bit better now after going with the suggestions and advice in this thread.  Last night the Wizard (mentored L62) was going full bore on the mobs we were killing in OOLS and aggro stayed on me./bows  My thanks!

[Meirril]

<cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>DVang wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I almost always stun before I cast my ward.  It helps prevent interruption of the longer cast anyway.  As a paladin you've got 2 good stuns with the kick and the shield bash, both work well.  Another thing to consider is that a paladin's main single-target taunt is over-time.  You might ask the others to avoid using any big CAs/Spells until the mob is down to at least 3/4 health to try to build up your aggro.</p><p> You could also check your AAs.  I went STR line for the haste and +hate and noticed a significant increase in ease of aggro management.</p></blockquote>I usually do kick and shield first, taunt, ward.  Or if I'm running into a group, group taunt, two aes and forego the warding and leaving my health in the capable hands of the Warden I run with.  I'll pop the ward when I can in the thick of all that.The Wiz and Assassin I'll group with, tho much higher than me, do wait for me to stick aggro, as does the Warden before he starts casting.I've gone down Str line to the end, but I didn't take the hate gain.  I did have it once, but I didn't see much of a change.  I'll try it again once I get the other lines I'm filling out done.But I'm sticking aggro a bit better now after going with the suggestions and advice in this thread.  Last night the Wizard (mentored L62) was going full bore on the mobs we were killing in OOLS and aggro stayed on me./bows  My thanks!</blockquote><p>Pop quiz time: Your in OOLS and doing some of the rooms where you need to body pull to get single encounters.</p><p>Group is as above: (you) Paladin (tanking), Warden, Wizard, Assassin. All others are higher level and mentored to you. Who gets amends, and why. Describe the pull in detail please. Is there any reason for the group to hold back? Assume your breaking the room and are pulling to the empty hall.</p>

[denmom]

<cite>Meirril wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Pop quiz time: Your in OOLS and doing some of the rooms where you need to body pull to get single encounters.<p>Group is as above: (you) Paladin (tanking), Warden, Wizard, Assassin. All others are higher level and mentored to you. Who gets amends, and why. Describe the pull in detail please. Is there any reason for the group to hold back? Assume your breaking the room and are pulling to the empty hall.</p></blockquote>I give Atonement (the L35 version of the L49 Amends since only L46 currently) to whomever needs it the most.  I usually wait for a fight or two to see which of the three pulls the hate.  Going with your idea of the Warden being higher than me, I may need to put Atonement on him due to Spores causing the aggro and/or the amount of his heals.  I'd have to say it'd be a toss up between the Wiz and the Warden.  I may end up giving Atonement to the Wiz due to possible high damage output and cloth armour.  Tho a mentored clothy can take hits a bit better.  The Assassin is chain, mentored, can take the hits much better.  The Warden is in leather, higher than cloth, and can also take the hits better plus can heal himself during the fight if he has to tank.  I know this can be done, I've done it many times on my own L80 Warden when I've mentored down.If need be, I'll change around Atonement as we progress to the one who needs the most.When I peel mobs, I make use of the collission boxes of whatever's in the room.  I can maneuver around a table, post, jar, barrel, whatever's around to get one mob and not another.  To pull, I inch forward, single taps on the up arrow until the mob notices me.  If the mob doesn't aggro after the initial head turn (when they "see" me), then I do another tap on the key to get closer.  That's usually enough to gain the "body turn", when the mob does a step and slight rotate to focus on me and I have aggro.  Soon as I have that is when I run backwards to the group, who are usually set in a clear corner of the room.  I pull to the middle of the group, kick, shield bash, group taunt (for the divine miti debuff) and single taunt (the dotting taunt).  After I do that is when the others lay into the mob to kill it.  I unload with all my CAs and spells, not using the ae's unless I know I won't pull something in from outside or nearby.I don't tank often, tho.  99% of the time when we (guildees and friends) group, I'm the healer.  But I do watch how the Paladin, Zerker, and Guardian tank and apply it to the "now and then" I play my own tanks (growing a Zerker, too).

[Meirril]

<p>Ok, definately different answers from what I'd do. Let me say the way I'd do it (and I'll try to remember you don't have certain spells yet but mention them anyways).</p><p>Going down amends choices. Warden: shouldn't get agro at all unless 1) spores cuts in on the pull and I don't bother taunting the mob. Even if this happens its easy to regain agro so negligable reason for amends. 2) Warden is overhealing. If we're fighting level appropriate mobs and my armor is of reasonable quality, this won't happen. If it keeps happening, I need to go find easier mobs to pull. 3) Bad pull! Multiple encounters and I can't hold agro with AE attacks and taunts. Amends wouldn't help here anyways.</p><p>Wizard: good choice for amends in many groups. Have the potential in long fights to generate the most agro. Also has no way to siphon agro off except through slow to recast deagro spell(s). However, the effects of hate are a little mittigated by being able to stand off from the mob. Also, their spell damage is slow. Once they get agro, they generally don't generate any more so regaining agro isn't really that difficult assuming they run towards you instead of away. If they do run away...they die. Make sure the wizard understands why they died afterward so it doesn't keep repeating. Bad: wizard could be outside of the transfer range from amends.</p><p>Assassin: This would be my amends choice actually. Melee fighter, so guarenteed to be within range for amends (10m). Starts doing damage immediately (via fast CAs and auto attack damage). Most likely to gain agro due to constant auto attack damage + considerable spike damage from long recharge CAs, especially if the assassin is going full bore. Also, this allows the Assassin to go full bore in DPS which makes fights shorter. Shorter fights = less healing so less chance for warden to gain significant agro. In this set up, I don't think the wizard would have to hold back either.</p><p>Incidently, pre-RoK I perfered Warlocks as my main amends target. Multi-mob encounters generally tend to beat the poor warlock to death if I don't. When the warlock has no fear of using their AE attacks its almost impossible to pry a mob off of the paladin. There are some issues with loosing agro on the first targetd mob if the rest of your group doesn't hold back for 2 seconds. (yeah, 1 second after you stop moving is enough time to establish agro but telling them 2 gets you 1 second generally).</p><p>Pre pull: Ward myself. If I have the wisdom line and I'm thinking about it, use Combat Leadership because its a 1 min buff with a 1 min recast time.</p><p>On the pull: inch up until the mob notices me. When I am sufficiently sure that I am out of assist range for other mobs, I hit my encounter taunt and then my regular taunt while running towards the group. On a long pull I'll also use my verdict (level 53 ancient knowledge spell with upgrades on line later. It is an encounter AE DD spell that counts as a taunt and can be cast on the move) while running. Get use to using taunts while moving, it gives you the extra agro you'll need to keep the mob off of your healer and hopefully keep melee from pealing the mob instantly.</p><p>I'll pull to one side of the group or the other. Generally I perfer pulling up to the group and then turning the mob to have its back to the entire group. This avoids damage to the group from frontal attacks and the occasional riposte from the mob. This also makes it easier to "chase" the mob incase it turns on someone. Being consistant on facing the mob means the scouts can be more efficient with their positional attacks. Once I stop moving, its best not to reposition so the scouts know what I'm doing and can act consistantly with confidence in me.</p><p>How I face the mob isn't nearly as important to scouts as me being consitant. If they know what to expect from me and the mob, they can get the most out of it. If you as a tank arn't consistant, your hurting the entire group.</p><p>Once I'm in position, I hit all of my CAs in rapid succession starting with kick, then the other 2 CAs that refresh in 10 seconds followed by others until my 10 second CAs refresh continue with them and then spells while waiting for the CAs to refresh. Taunts at this point are purely optional if your transfered hate is good. Replace starting CAs with our AE DD/stun followed by the other 30 sec refresh blue AE and then other longer recast AEs afterward if I'm pulling a linked group of mobs or we get adds. Once all AEs are down then go into CA routeen and use the AE taunt as soon as it refreshes.</p><p>At this point agro shouldn't be any kind of issue unless the mob has some sort of deagro or you run out of power from the fight going way too long. The power issue is very rare unless fighting tricky boss mobs that are way underconned and your healing on top of trying to hold agro. Healing takes a lot of power. So do taunts. Try to avoid over using them during a fight. Just use them at the beginning to establish agro and your DPS+transfer should be enough after that to hold it.</p><p>I'm sure someone here is going to tell me something I'm doing above makes no sense. Just explain it when you do and what you do instead. And yeah, sometimes the assassin isn't going to be the best choice. This has more to do with the personalities of the players than the class itself. I'm basing my choices on aggressive players who want to parce well instead of working with the group. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Parcing is evil.</p>

[NANEEJE]

I am going to say this, just as a point that some people may not think of... and im going to shout it, so it gets attention... IF YOU HAVE AN AGGRO PROBLEM, AND IT JUST HAPPENED... SOMEONE PROBABLY DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT AMENDS, AND SCREWED WITH HATE TRANSFER!!! So your in Crypt of Agony tanking, and all of a sudden, you can't hold aggro at all. It's bouncing all over the place, and no matter what taunts, rescue, holy ground you use, its crazy. I had learned the hard way that coercers have a hate transfer, and if you play with a crappy coercer, he will put a transfer of hate from the same guy you are trying to amend. The point is, if you are consistently having a hate/aggro problem, then you need to look at how you pull/stun in the beginning. If you just all of a sudden have an aggro issue, most likely group makeup is causing some conflict. The game is very technical, and while its straight forward, there are areas where you can conflict with other classes spells. As [Removed for Content] as it sounds, you can amend the warden, over a melee dps, and hold aggro just fine, if your warden is good, providing the dps'r is not as good. The best part of amends is if its not working, you can just put in on the person that strips aggro first. And man.. the fun you can have when you have to share fighter positions with other fighters... Amends is such a fun tool in our trick bag. I am enjoying playing with it in boring coa groups, with all 80's, just for fun.

[denmom]

/nodnods to MeirrilEvery tank has diff ways to tank.Because I tend to keep out of pugs and just stick to my friends and guildees, I know how the group is set up and the higher levels adjust.  We've all done the higher level mentored to lower tango, so if a higher pulls aggro off the lower tank they'll throttle back./nodnods to NaneejeIn our three man L80 trio, Zerker is MT, Paladin OT, and I'm the Warden.  I'm usually given Amends because I'll get aggro on the pull.And that's an odd thing.  I've seen aggro head right for me even when Spores didn't proc and I haven't healed or cast.  It's a definite aggro on body pulls, a sometimes aggro when the Zerker is able to bow pull.Yah, I've seen hate bounce all over the place due to Amends and how the fighters are yanking the mob around.  I watch bars in a fight and I'll see one fighter have damage then another gets it then the other and then its right back to the MT.  The mob's so confused by the time it's dead.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />I read something somewhere in this forum about how hate transfers can cap what the Amends line transfers.  I gotta find that thread and give it a reread.

[Jrral]

<cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I read something somewhere in this forum about how hate transfers can cap what the Amends line transfers.  I gotta find that thread and give it a reread.</blockquote>IIRC it's that there's an absolute cap of 50% hate transfer to a single character. I think what happens if you exceed that is that the Amends hate siphon is scaled down to make room for the others. So if you put Amends at 39% on and someone else puts a 15% hate transfer on, Amends is reduced to 35% transfer.Two other times I've seen hate transfer get weird:<ol><li>When A puts a hate siphon on B while B simultaneously has a hate push going to A.</li><li>When there's a chain, eg. A is pulling hate from B while B has hate being transferred to them from C.</li></ol>

[Meirril]

<cite>Jrral@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pheep@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I read something somewhere in this forum about how hate transfers can cap what the Amends line transfers.  I gotta find that thread and give it a reread.</blockquote>IIRC it's that there's an absolute cap of 50% hate transfer to a single character. I think what happens if you exceed that is that the Amends hate siphon is scaled down to make room for the others. So if you put Amends at 39% on and someone else puts a 15% hate transfer on, Amends is reduced to 35% transfer.Two other times I've seen hate transfer get weird:<ol><li>When A puts a hate siphon on B while B simultaneously has a hate push going to A.</li><li>When there's a chain, eg. A is pulling hate from B while B has hate being transferred to them from C.</li></ol></blockquote><p>I'm not sure about that. Aeralik gave us a tidbit of information in this thread:</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=411475" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=411475</a></p><p>Things arn't as clear cut as we thought they were. I think?</p>