Shadowknights and dual weild

[TheGamingFre]

<p>I was wondering, why cant shadowknights have the ability to dual weild and a combat art for it that goes along side our sheild bash combat art?</p><p>Dual weilding is not going to make us better than a berzerker when it comes to dps and aggro, just like using a shield dosnt make us better than a guardian on protection and aggro, however it would be a nice added feture that could allow us to do a bit more, both in groups and solo.</p><p>And to be fair, why not give paladins the same option as well?  Both classes are suppose to be extreamly versatile, this would simply be a natural progression of it.  All of the other combat/dps classes currently can.  Berzerkers, Guardians, monks, rangers, assassins, brigands, so on and so forth.</p><p>What do you all think?  Please no wining, simply say if you like/support the idea or not.  Maybe the deves will listen if we keep it simple and not turn this into a all-n-out whine fest where we people just complain and demand overpowering things.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>There are a couple posts going for this already.</p><p>One on these boards:</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=410651" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=410651</a></p><p>And one on eq2flames:</p><p><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/combat-discussion/21963-fix-crusaders-being-left-dust-dps.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.eq2flames.com/combat-dis...t-dust-dps.html</a></p>

[TheGamingFre]

<p>You miss the point.</p><p> This is, in effect, something of a petition.  To see how many people will say yes or no to allowing SK's to dual weild, not an attempt to beat the dead horse over the head again.</p>

[Nakash]

<p>No .</p><p>they should raise the base damage of our spells by huge. (and i mean huge)</p><p>They didnt increase over the Tiers enough. Giving us more meele damage is just the wrong way.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>Yes.</p><p>Everybody knows 2h weapons are under-powered and this has not been addressed at all.</p><p>DW'ing has immense advantages, including more procs, more stats, hell even the temporary stones you can use to increase crits can be put on both weapons.</p><p>Now SOE is making weapons designed specifically for using in off-hand...so yet more weapons that Crusaders miss out on.</p><p>Would allow for SK's to maximize DPS while using their epic like every other class gets to do.</p>

[Nole]

And if your weapon delays are different, have fun trying to figure out when to cast your spells without delaying your attacks too much.

[geophonic]

I always liked the idea of SKs and DW. But just for style reasons, big bad evil sword in the right hand and dreadful morningstar in the left hand.but I guess this thread will turn into the normal "why are SKs underpowered" thread which honestly will not get any attention by the devs.

[Bruener]

Why would you ever get 2 weapons that did not have the same delay?  That is a no brainer and there are plenty of 1h 4 second delay weapons out there to choose from.

[Margen]

<p>I personaly don't support SK getting Dual wield, BUT 2h needs a major upgrade in both damage and stats.  Plus our spells/CA could use upgrades also!</p><p>I also think they need to do some major balancing on our abilities vs the warriors DA, our MT guardian is hitting 86pct DA with his AA's and guess what he didn't lose a bit of avoidance when he changed his AA's once he got his fabled buckler, in fact he gained avoidance and he hasn't even gotten his mythical yet.  Some reason that just ticks me off alot!</p><p>To be blunt we should out dps Guardians by alot.</p><p>Sorry for slight derail, no to dual wield, but upgrade 2handers!</p>

[evilgamer]

<p>I personally think they should just up your spell DPS, giving you dual weild is encroaching on other classes territory.</p><p> Do you think brawlers and warriors should get spells?</p><p>Sk are hybrids, that makes them unique, I think they should make your "unique" abilities better, not just bland all the classes till they are the same.</p><p>I do think its silly that bezerkers out DPS you, I think SK's should out dps all the other tanks except the brawlers (since we cant wear platel), to make up for your crap taunts.</p><p>My main is a bruiser, I do think that 2handers are a bit [Removed for Content] I always duel weild myself.</p><p>I really do think fixing your spells damage is the best anwer though, it allows them to fine tune your class and your class only, alot of the 2 handers are usabel by the other classes too.</p>

[DMIstar]

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> Do you think brawlers and warriors should get spells? </p></blockquote>I'd vote for giveing brawlers and Warriors Spells in a heart beat .. Thier DPS would go down asap afterwards and maybe might level out lol If you think Our spells are a huge amount of DMG, your completly Wrong, they are comparable to CA's now and sometimes even lower in damage.

[evilgamer]

<cite>Istar@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite>If you think Our spells are a huge amount of DMG, your completly Wrong, they are comparable to CA's now and sometimes even lower in damage. </blockquote><p>Lol, show me where I said "your spells are a huge amount of DMG".  I admitted your DPS should be better and I think the way to improve that is to improve your spells, not 2 handers or giving you dual wield.</p><p>I already admitted that SK's need a dps boost, fixing your spells would be the best way to do that.</p>

[DMIstar]

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Istar@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite>If you think Our spells are a huge amount of DMG, your completly Wrong, they are comparable to CA's now and sometimes even lower in damage. </blockquote><p>Lol, show me where I said "your spells are a huge amount of DMG".  I admitted your DPS should be better and I think the way to improve that is to improve your spells, not 2 handers or giving you dual wield.</p><p>I already admitted that SK's need a dps boost, fixing your spells would be the best way to do that.</p></blockquote>Not saying overly you did.. Just pointing out the nerf it would be to gi ve spells to the other fighters. THough I do agree. Dual wield is not our solution.. IT would be another problem all wrapped up.. and another excuse on the matter. So with how this post laid out, I'll Put in NO to the duel wield piece...

[Bruener]

<p>There are a few things they could do to help us out, and actually some of each of them should be what they do...</p><p>They could give us DW...this would allow us to use our Mythical weapon all the time, as well as DW > > > > 2h for DPS.</p><p>They could give us a 1h DA line like warriors have...this would be huge for tanking since a lot of DPS comes from melee meaning no power consumption, much better for tanking</p><p>They could increase the damage of our spells...this needs to be done definitely, our spells take longer to cast hence they should hit for a lot more than what CA's hit for.</p><p>They could beef up 2h weapons...this has been a problem for as long as I can remember, 2h weapons just do not create the type of DPS that DW'ing does...not even close, furthermore to get it right 2h weapons should have twice as many stats as 1h weapons and have to available slots for adornments.</p><p>Finally, what I would really like to see our weapons designed specifically for Crusaders, much like EQ1 did...this means having 1h weapons that are much more powerful than any other 1h weapon out there to make up for the lack of DA and DW'ing that crusaders have.  Similarly 2h weapons designed much better for tanking...meaning a 2h sword that has 20% block chance on it designed for crusaders.</p><p>As you can see there are a lot of things SOE could be doing to help us out and the disparity that has been happening.  Of course, if they actually listen and adjust our Mythical to be one of those 1h weapons mentioned above that out-shines any other 1h weapon for DPS...than we would be talking.</p>

[evilgamer]

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>There are a few things they could do to help us out, and actually some of each of them should be what they do...</p><p>They could give us DW...this would allow us to use our Mythical weapon all the time, as well as DW > > > > 2h for DPS.</p><p>They could give us a 1h DA line like warriors have...this would be huge for tanking since a lot of DPS comes from melee meaning no power consumption, much better for tanking</p><p>They could increase the damage of our spells...this needs to be done definitely, our spells take longer to cast hence they should hit for a lot more than what CA's hit for.</p><p>They could beef up 2h weapons...this has been a problem for as long as I can remember, 2h weapons just do not create the type of DPS that DW'ing does...not even close, furthermore to get it right 2h weapons should have twice as many stats as 1h weapons and have to available slots for adornments.</p><p>Finally, what I would really like to see our weapons designed specifically for Crusaders, much like EQ1 did...this means having 1h weapons that are much more powerful than any other 1h weapon out there to make up for the lack of DA and DW'ing that crusaders have.  Similarly 2h weapons designed much better for tanking...meaning a 2h sword that has 20% block chance on it designed for crusaders.</p><p>As you can see there are a lot of things SOE could be doing to help us out and the disparity that has been happening.  Of course, if they actually listen and adjust our Mythical to be one of those 1h weapons mentioned above that out-shines any other 1h weapon for DPS...than we would be talking.</p></blockquote><p>I really dont think messing with weapons is the right idea, I had a 65 SK in EQ 1 when that was the level cap and I always found it funny that only my class could swing this particular sword.</p><p>The SK weapons in EQ1 were uber becuse  SK's weapon skill capped much lower then the pure melees.  I dont think this is the case in EQ 2.  </p><p>In EQ 1 Sk's really came into their own with the POP expansion, the finally figured out to stop giving us necro spells and give us our own line of spells.  They made our spells much faster casting and with decent damage.</p><p>Probably what needs done here, faster casting spells with more damage.</p>

[zaun2]

This is just my two cents, but dual wielding would go against the whole SK concept, especially from EQ1.Instead, why not a noticable damage bonus if using a one-hander to make raw auto-attack DPS numbers to what other warrior archetypes have?  This is sort of what EQ1 SKs had, but it was due to SK only weapons that had very good damage ratios at the time, rather than a raw DPS increase.

[Naithachal]

<p>No.</p><p>DW is useless for us and against the SK concept. Give us good DPS boost for 1Hd and for 2Hd.We need DPS and better Defense. But i doubt Dev's care about anything we post here. </p>

[zaun2]

One idea i wonder about would be a point blank, AoE "AC tap" spell that would both add some noticeable defense to the SK, debuff the nearby mobs slightly, and add threat.  This might be the way to go for nudging SK DPS and armor in the right direction.<div></div><div>This could be made into a generic crusader spell by changing the name slightly on both sides, "Corruption of Armor" for SKs, "Holy Accuracy" for pallies, but having the function still be the same.</div>

[Hamervelder]

Instead of giving us dual-wield, the developers should revamp the useless agi line, and give us double-attack bonuses for using a two-handed.  Problem solved.

[Diern]

<p>No, just No..... mmm'kay.</p><p>Being an SK player for many years in numerous EQ games I'll echo the sentiments of some other here.</p><p> Shadowknights have never and should never ever get the ability to dual wield. We are Shadowknights not shadowrangers or shadowrogues.</p><p>When I think of a Shadowknight and the concept of one, I see a great hulking man surrounded by an aura of pure dread which a huge nasty 2handed sword of axe cleaving a swath through his enemies and casting spells to augment his strength at his foes expense.</p><p> SONy simply needs to be 2 handed weapons more viable and fix our issues with itemisation.</p>

[Razlath]

<p>I would also vote no.  I would much rather see a solid double attack AA line than get dual wield.  It would feel wierd swinging two swords on Dartak.  Two hander or sword and shield are the only wield types that "feel" right.</p><p>I would however like to see something on our epics that when used with nothing in our off hand grants some bonuses.  I am not sure what those would be to be fair, but the mechanics are already in place (look at the rogue AA line that grants riposte and DA stuff when off hand is empty) to make it possible.  Obviously the reason is diff (we aren't swashbuckling we are using the epic with both hands).  This would also neatly fill the hand-and-a-half niche that I equate with the knight (crusader) class.</p>

[Mayl]

<p>Another NO vote here from this SK....</p><p>AA for some double attack using 2 handers or such is fine, but please no DW for us.  </p><p>You have what, 10  classes already using DW.  We don' t need more.</p>

[Nimbrithil]

<cite>Blackoath@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I personaly don't support SK getting Dual wield, BUT 2h needs a major upgrade in both damage and stats.  Plus our spells/CA could use upgrades also!</p><p>I also think they need to do some major balancing on our abilities vs the warriors DA, our MT guardian is hitting 86pct DA with his AA's and guess what he didn't lose a bit of avoidance when he changed his AA's once he got his fabled buckler, in fact he gained avoidance and he hasn't even gotten his mythical yet.  Some reason that just ticks me off alot!</p><p>To be blunt we should out dps Guardians by alot.</p><p>Sorry for slight derail, no to dual wield, but upgrade 2handers!</p></blockquote>I agree,,,no to Dual wield. Look at it from the "LORE" perspective. The Crusader class is the knight of EQ2. They should be wielding huge two handed weapons that do devastating damage and this USED TO BE the case before the change in dual wield to 1 hander to two hander. The weps need upgraded and maybe the spells,,,not sure I have only played my SK thorugh 14 levels and he is level locked for PVP. At lower levels as I am now the SK is BRUTAL though.

[TheGamingFre]

<p>wow, ive got to say, depite the fact that so many, if not all, of you disagree with me Im glad to see that this hasnt turned into a whine fest where people demand everything and have, IMO, offered a counter idea to mine.</p><p>Now lets just hope that the dev's are watching...</p>

[evilgamer]

<p>I have re-thought this issue and yes I do think SK's should get dual weild, I see no reason they should not be able to dual wield.</p><p>All the other scout and fighter classes can dual weild I see no reason crusaders should not be able to like all the other melees can.</p><p>Giving crusaders dual weild would not be unbalancing  and would give them a slight boost.</p><p>They could not dual weild in EQ 1, to balance things, but this is a vastly different game other melee classes get utility they never had in eq 1, so why not give crusaders dual weild.</p><p>Fixing 2 handers would be nice too.</p>

[HentaiB]

<p>Sorry, but dual wield is not with the mythos of the crusader in any way shape or form.  Yes 2 handers are extremely weak right now, but they need to fix the damage rating change them in some other big way.  Dual wield is a band aid at best.</p><p> I have a discussion going on in combat arts about 2 handers go there and post your ideas, but dual wield just will not work.  It would kill some of the flavor and difference of the crusader class.</p><p> Lot of buts there, but sorry</p>

[Tiberuis]

<p>I do not like the concept of dual weild for an SK.   IMHO it would run contrary to our core class identity.</p><p>Two things to help balance our DPS vs. the other plate tank classes : </p><p>1) Increase our base spell damage to bring us in balance with the other plate tank classes DPS, and</p><p>2) Add a base damage bonus for 2 handed weapons, to give us a unique ability that helps to balance us with the other plate tank classes DPS. </p><p>IMHO, both of these options would help to bring SK' DPS up to par, without sacrificing our core class values.</p><p>And yes, I do think the Dev's are listening.  They are very much aware that the SK is an underpowered class right now, and there are discussions at SOE about possible solutions, including itemization bonuses. </p><p>Good discussion on this thread, thanks for posting!</p>

[Norrsken]

<cite>Diernes wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>No, just No..... mmm'kay.</p><p>Being an SK player for many years in numerous EQ games I'll echo the sentiments of some other here.</p><p> Shadowknights have never and should never ever get the ability to dual wield. We are Shadowknights not shadowrangers or shadowrogues.</p><p>When I think of a Shadowknight and the concept of one, I see a great hulking man surrounded by an aura of pure dread which a huge nasty 2handed sword of axe cleaving a swath through his enemies and casting spells to augment his strength at his foes expense.</p><p> SONy simply needs to be 2 handed weapons more viable and fix our issues with itemisation.</p></blockquote>actually, they could for quite some time in eq2 due to a little known bug. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Mallfoy]

<p>I vote NO to DW</p><p>It's already been said / mentioned before but change WIS line to 2hder / DA line, relook at increasing the base dmg of all our spells, relook at our stances and lastly beef up the stats on 2hders and increase the dmg ratings. </p><p>With all these changes it would be nice if they made our mythical (and pallys) have a scale rend clicky effect like the Wurmslayer.  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[evilgamer]

<p><i>We are Shadowknights not shadowrangers or shadowrogues.</i></p><p>Lol, well being that crusaders are the only melee classes that can not dual wield you more like shadowpriest and shadowmages now. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Razlath]

<cite>evilgamer wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><i>We are Shadowknights not shadowrangers or shadowrogues.</i></p><p>Lol, well being that crusaders are the only melee classes that can not dual wield you more like shadowpriest and shadowmages now. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>Actually we are still ShadowKnights.  There just doesn't happen to be a non-crusader knight out there.

[evilgamer]

<p>Another consideration is that the SK epic is a 1 handed slasher, if SK's were given a bunch of 2 hander AA's, it might make the epic near useless except for tanking and I dont think that was what the designers had in mind for epics.</p><p> Dual wield would make the epic even more useful when soloing.</p>

[Razlath]

<p>Personally I am very glad to see the SK community saying no to this especially since many have said it might make us more effective but it violates the spirit of our class.</p><p>I can only hope that when the Devs see something like that they realize that the SKs aren't looking to become the premiere tank with all the toys.  We aren't being unreasonable and demanding an overpowered class.  Instead we are just asking for a place on raids and for reasonable abilities within the spirit of our class to balance out some of the problems with the class.</p><p>There are other ways to make the epic useful in both of the situations we are asked to work in other than giving out dual wield.  If many of the suggestions for enhancing 2 handers instead said "when secondary slot is empty" then they would apply equally to 1 handers with no shield and two handers.  This would allow the epic to still be used.  If it also gained some abilities centered around "when secondary slot is empty" (indicating a more hand a half type sword) then all the better.  Of course the main ability on the Epic (fabled version at least) is hate gain.  So that doesn't really stack up well with soloing or DPSing anyway so I would imagine in those situations a different weapon will be considered anyway (with or without dual wield) so any changes there may be unecessary.</p><p>There are other answers out there.  I just wanted to say that I am glad to see the ShadowKnights sticking to class theme instead of cheering spirit breaking changes to their class like others have.</p>

[seamus]

<cite>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Diernes wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>No, just No..... mmm'kay.</p><p>Being an SK player for many years in numerous EQ games I'll echo the sentiments of some other here.</p><p> Shadowknights have never and should never ever get the ability to dual wield. We are Shadowknights not shadowrangers or shadowrogues.</p><p>When I think of a Shadowknight and the concept of one, I see a great hulking man surrounded by an aura of pure dread which a huge nasty 2handed sword of axe cleaving a swath through his enemies and casting spells to augment his strength at his foes expense.</p><p> SONy simply needs to be 2 handed weapons more viable and fix our issues with itemisation.</p></blockquote>actually, they could for quite some time in eq2 due to a little known bug. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Yeah but it was just show, it didn't actually do damage did it?

[seamus]

<p>Along with others I'm for fixing 2 Handers and updating the AGI line to be a 2 Hander line. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Two handers just fit the mythos of Crusader for me. Just as DW'ing fit the mythos of Berserker for me ... even ... though ... the ... darn ... buckler line ... exists.</p>

[Norrsken]

<cite>seamus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ulvhamne@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Diernes wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>No, just No..... mmm'kay.</p><p>Being an SK player for many years in numerous EQ games I'll echo the sentiments of some other here.</p><p> Shadowknights have never and should never ever get the ability to dual wield. We are Shadowknights not shadowrangers or shadowrogues.</p><p>When I think of a Shadowknight and the concept of one, I see a great hulking man surrounded by an aura of pure dread which a huge nasty 2handed sword of axe cleaving a swath through his enemies and casting spells to augment his strength at his foes expense.</p><p> SONy simply needs to be 2 handed weapons more viable and fix our issues with itemisation.</p></blockquote>actually, they could for quite some time in eq2 due to a little known bug. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Yeah but it was just show, it didn't actually do damage did it?</blockquote>I think it was working for damage too. Been a long time now though.

[Bowser]

<p>I don't think dual wielding fits the Shadowknight class, but I wouldn't say no if Sony offered it to us.</p>

[DMIstar]

lets get to the point on this.. Instead of "It does not fit the class" Its very doable for the class to get dual wield... its another thing though to operate it... We are a class right now that needs higher delay weapons, in order not to waste hit timeings for overal damage per second... So we grab 2handers/1handers that are at 5.0 delay.... Adding another weapon to this mix, will only have us completly miss timeing this swing.. WE would never utilize this ability to point of where the other fighters use it at... And to top it all off, If we where given it, our CA/spells will be nerfed to coincide with a ficticious dual wield dmg rate ... Fixing 2handers and adding DA will give us more dmg then dual wield...