Raid Set-up After Changes

[voxranger]

<blockquote>First, just so everyone is aware, I have posted this question in the ranger forum as well so I can get a perspective on it from both rangers and non-rangers. <p>Secondly, both myself and my guild are just starting to raid on a regular basis, so please forgive my "newbness". We are also a Q guild, so my discussion will be limited only to those classes available to us.</p><p>I have two basic questions, and I am hoping some of you experienced raiders can help us out.  </p><p>First question: raid set-up. It seems to me, the ideal set up after the changes is a follows:</p><p>1. MT group: Guardian, Templar, Mystic, Swash, Dirge, Warden.</p><p>2. Off-tank group: Zerker, Warden, Dirge, Ranger, Swash, Illy.</p><p>3. DPS Group: Wiz, Warlock, Conjurer, another wiz or warlock, Troub, Fury.</p><p>4. 4th Group: Paladin, Troub or Dirge, any additional classes customized to zone and mob needs.</p><p>Your feedback will be helpful and appreciated.</p><p>Second question: </p><p>One of the problems we are having is with tanks (and group actually) getting aoe'd with mezz, stun, and stiffle. Even if we are jousting, we are finding our dps is being reduced when the tanks are nuetralized. Pots don't seem to work well on epics, and dirge aoe protection has not been all that effective either.</p><p>I know wardens can spec for tort. shell, and we are working on that as a possible solution. </p><p>Any other suggestions?</p><p>Thanks very much,</p><p>Vox</p></blockquote>

[Skwor]

One suggestion ditch the cloth DPS group, rangers are the top ranged DPS and assassins top melee DPS, no real need for sorcerers they are just lower DPS. Pick up more Illy's rangers and assassins. With the latest patch wizards and warlocks are limiting your raid potential DPS and they are less survivable than the scouts.

[Illine]

He sais GOOD ONLY so no assassinYou tried sanctuary? with the templar? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[simpwrx02]

<cite>Skwor wrote:</cite><blockquote>One suggestion ditch the cloth DPS group, rangers are the top ranged DPS and assassins top melee DPS, no real need for sorcerers they are just lower DPS. Pick up more Illy's rangers and assassins. With the latest patch wizards and warlocks are limiting your raid potential DPS and they are less survivable than the scouts.</blockquote><p>Then why have any class other than illys/rangers and 1 healer in any group other than the MT group?  Oh wait an illy is a cloth dps also, so basically you want to max out the ranger class's dps output instead of setting up a balanced dps group for max dps.  Let me guess you will put time compression on your ranger so you can cast your deaggro slightly faster...   Try looking to see how all the classes interact with each other before making blanket statement that are just wrong.  </p><p>I do agree that a all cloth dps group isnt always the best setup as a mix will highlight everyones abilities to thier fullest.  And player skill is still the dominate reason for people topping the parse.</p><p>To the OP you shoudl try to get more illys for maxing dps 4 woudl be most beneficail one for each group.  Also you might want a second mystis for your OT group, also ditch the warden from the MT group for an illy, I woudl make putting a chanter in the MT group a prioity as if they ever run out of power, well that is the end of the fight.</p><p>group 1.  Guard/templar/dirge/swashy/illy/mystic</p><p>group 2 Zerker/warden/mystic(or templar)/dirge/illy/swashy</p><p>group 3 troub/fury/wiz/conj/illy/ranger</p><p>group 4 Monk/warden/bard/illy/Pally/lock</p>

[Banditman]

No Conjuror in the group with the Troubador is a [Removed for Content] TRAGEDY.  That's two casters not proc'ing Aria / PotM / Frigid Gift.  That's a lot of lost DPS.

[EasternKing]

<cite>Skwor wrote:</cite><blockquote>One suggestion ditch the cloth DPS group, rangers are the top ranged DPS and assassins top melee DPS, no real need for sorcerers they are just lower DPS. Pick up more Illy's rangers and assassins. With the latest patch wizards and warlocks are limiting your raid potential DPS and they are less survivable than the scouts.</blockquote>your smoking crack, wizards > the rest top end.

[EasternKing]

<cite>voxranger wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>First, just so everyone is aware, I have posted this question in the ranger forum as well so I can get a perspective on it from both rangers and non-rangers. <p>Secondly, both myself and my guild are just starting to raid on a regular basis, so please forgive my "newbness". We are also a Q guild, so my discussion will be limited only to those classes available to us.</p><p>I have two basic questions, and I am hoping some of you experienced raiders can help us out.  </p><p>First question: raid set-up. It seems to me, the ideal set up after the changes is a follows:</p><p>1. MT group: Guardian, Templar, Mystic, Swash, Dirge, Warden.</p><p>2. Off-tank group: Zerker, Warden, Dirge, Ranger, Swash, Illy.</p><p>3. DPS Group: Wiz, Warlock, Conjurer, another wiz or warlock, Troub, Fury.</p><p>4. 4th Group: Paladin, Troub or Dirge, any additional classes customized to zone and mob needs.</p><p>Your feedback will be helpful and appreciated.</p><p>Second question: </p><p>One of the problems we are having is with tanks (and group actually) getting aoe'd with mezz, stun, and stiffle. Even if we are jousting, we are finding our dps is being reduced when the tanks are nuetralized. Pots don't seem to work well on epics, and dirge aoe protection has not been all that effective either.</p><p>I know wardens can spec for tort. shell, and we are working on that as a possible solution. </p><p>Any other suggestions?</p><p>Thanks very much,</p><p>Vox</p></blockquote></blockquote><p>1. MT group: Guardian, Templar, Defiler, Swash, Dirge, Coercer. (<u><b>sever hate</b></u> is the best pulling tool in game atm.+dps for guard+swashy+dirge+capped out regen for grp+channel+thoughtsnap.)</p><p>2. Off-tank group: Paladin, Mystic, Dirge, Monk, Warden or Illusionist, Brig.</p><p>3. DPS Group: Wizard , Wizard, Troub , Illusionist, Inquisitor, Ranger.</p><p>4. DPS Group: Wizard, Warlock, Troub, Illusionist, Fury, Assassin, .</p>

[Skwor]

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Skwor wrote:</cite><blockquote>One suggestion ditch the cloth DPS group, rangers are the top ranged DPS and assassins top melee DPS, no real need for sorcerers they are just lower DPS. Pick up more Illy's rangers and assassins. With the latest patch wizards and warlocks are limiting your raid potential DPS and they are less survivable than the scouts.</blockquote>your smoking crack, wizards > the rest top end.</blockquote><p>Parses show on all but orange assassins pwn the parse. And after this lu there is a very good chance it is assassins and rangers and now on orange mobs as well. </p><p>If you have good scouts you will see this when you start raiding.</p>

[EasternKing]

<cite>Skwor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Skwor wrote:</cite><blockquote>One suggestion ditch the cloth DPS group, rangers are the top ranged DPS and assassins top melee DPS, no real need for sorcerers they are just lower DPS. Pick up more Illy's rangers and assassins. With the latest patch wizards and warlocks are limiting your raid potential DPS and they are less survivable than the scouts.</blockquote>your smoking crack, wizards > the rest top end.</blockquote>Parses show on all but orange assassins pwn the parse. And after this lu there is a very good chance it is assassins and rangers and now on orange mobs as well. </blockquote>whos parses ? ive seen several top end guilds, and while assassins are well up there nothing will beat a well played wizard +mythical.when i start raiding ? lol ...instead of posting anon ...try your name and your guild, then we can see what relevance to attatch to your posts.

[voxranger]

I'm curious. Why would you put a ranger in a group with a troub as opposed to a dirge? Speaking from the perspective of a ranger, I see this happen a lot where the ranger gets thrown into the dps group with casters. Seems to me, a ranger is ideally suited to be in same group with zerker, dirge, and illy to maximize his damage outpout.

[simpwrx02]

<cite>voxranger wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm curious. Why would you put a ranger in a group with a troub as opposed to a dirge? Speaking from the perspective of a ranger, I see this happen a lot where the ranger gets thrown into the dps group with casters. Seems to me, a ranger is ideally suited to be in same group with zerker, dirge, and illy to maximize his damage outpout.</blockquote><p>He may be better in that group for terms of dps, but is the group better for him to be in it?  What are you willing to scarifice for the ranger to be in that group.  The ranger is in the group with a troub as normally the MT/OT groups have dirges and theother 2 have troubs. Yes dirges are better for Ranger dps, but troubs are better at buffing all classes.  </p><p>The illy in the zerker group you speak of should have his double attack either on the OT or on the OT hate transfer and not hte ranger, by being in the group wiht a troub/illy/wizard your buffs are still very nice, just not tops, you get haste from illy, str/int from wizzy, haste from illy, double attack from illy, and the troub will max out your dehate to 50% which is the cap.  So while the zerker group if it was setup for ranger dps then sure go in tehre, but hte group more appears to be the OT group and as such shoudl be setup more towards having the OT second on the hate list.</p><p>Edit: And Easterking the reason that all the above MT groups dont have a defielr/coercer is because the OP asked for a good aligned raid force, not a mixed one.  Also you rraid setup has 5 ehalers with maybe a 6th this is soemone just starting to raid and I dont tihnk many non top server raid guilds can keep up an OT with a single healer, I know my guild cant and we arent slackers.</p>

[voxranger]

<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>voxranger wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm curious. Why would you put a ranger in a group with a troub as opposed to a dirge? Speaking from the perspective of a ranger, I see this happen a lot where the ranger gets thrown into the dps group with casters. Seems to me, a ranger is ideally suited to be in same group with zerker, dirge, and illy to maximize his damage outpout.</blockquote><p>He may be better in that group for terms of dps, but is the group better for him to be in it?  What are you willing to scarifice for the ranger to be in that group.  The ranger is in the group with a troub as normally the MT/OT groups have dirges and theother 2 have troubs. Yes dirges are better for Ranger dps, but troubs are better at buffing all classes.  </p><p>The illy in the zerker group you speak of should have his double attack either on the OT or on the OT hate transfer and not hte ranger, by being in the group wiht a troub/illy/wizard your buffs are still very nice, just not tops, you get haste from illy, str/int from wizzy, haste from illy, double attack from illy, and the troub will max out your dehate to 50% which is the cap.  So while the zerker group if it was setup for ranger dps then sure go in tehre, but hte group more appears to be the OT group and as such shoudl be setup more towards having the OT second on the hate list.</p><p>Edit: And Easterking the reason that all the above MT groups dont have a defielr/coercer is because the OP asked for a good aligned raid force, not a mixed one.  Also you rraid setup has 5 ehalers with maybe a 6th this is soemone just starting to raid and I dont tihnk many non top server raid guilds can keep up an OT with a single healer, I know my guild cant and we arent slackers.</p></blockquote><p>Ok, that makes sense. My desire is in fact to maximize the performance of the group, but being a player with limited raid experience, was unclear exactly how all players interact with each other strength-wise in that setting, which is why I stated i was speaking from my perspective.</p><p>Thanks for responding, you have helped me a great deal here <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[voxranger]

<cite>voxranger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>voxranger wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm curious. Why would you put a ranger in a group with a troub as opposed to a dirge? Speaking from the perspective of a ranger, I see this happen a lot where the ranger gets thrown into the dps group with casters. Seems to me, a ranger is ideally suited to be in same group with zerker, dirge, and illy to maximize his damage outpout.</blockquote><p>He may be better in that group for terms of dps, but is the group better for him to be in it?  What are you willing to scarifice for the ranger to be in that group.  The ranger is in the group with a troub as normally the MT/OT groups have dirges and theother 2 have troubs. Yes dirges are better for Ranger dps, but troubs are better at buffing all classes.  </p><p>The illy in the zerker group you speak of should have his double attack either on the OT or on the OT hate transfer and not hte ranger, by being in the group wiht a troub/illy/wizard your buffs are still very nice, just not tops, you get haste from illy, str/int from wizzy, haste from illy, double attack from illy, and the troub will max out your dehate to 50% which is the cap.  So while the zerker group if it was setup for ranger dps then sure go in tehre, but hte group more appears to be the OT group and as such shoudl be setup more towards having the OT second on the hate list.</p><p>Edit: And Easterking the reason that all the above MT groups dont have a defielr/coercer is because the OP asked for a good aligned raid force, not a mixed one.  Also you rraid setup has 5 ehalers with maybe a 6th this is soemone just starting to raid and I dont tihnk many non top server raid guilds can keep up an OT with a single healer, I know my guild cant and we arent slackers.</p></blockquote><p>Ok, that makes sense. My desire is in fact to maximize the performance of the group, but being a player with limited raid experience, was unclear exactly how all players interact with each other strength-wise in that setting, which is why I stated i was speaking from my perspective.</p><p>Thanks for responding, you have helped me a great deal here <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>Whoops - sorry forgot to mention.....I am assuming by your response that the extension of the focus aim temp buff for rangers include bonuses to melee classes is not significant enough for you to move from the strategy you posted....correct?

[simpwrx02]

<p>I did think about it, however the amount of added dps to the zerker/OT group would probably drop the zerker some on the hate list as the swashy will pass much more hate tyhan the extra few hits will give to him, also you will have a much greater chance of pulling aggro in that group depending on how strong the MT is at keeping aggro.  However if you built a solid melee dps group instead of 2 hybrid groups then it may be more benficial. A melee dps group woudl probably be dirge/illy/ranger/warden/swashy/monk. </p><p>The key thing in a raid is making sure the tank lives and holds aggro, and a good amount of fights may have adds that have to be dealth with so a OT group is needed to be similiar in str to the MT, but not the exact same setup required.  The other 2 groups you can try to max out wiht what you have availabel to you, but are not as crucial as the MT/OT groups.  Hybrid groups just are tryign to use every buff possibel to max and normaly the onyl scout in ahybrid group is a buff target.  </p><p>The illy/troub/wizard combo can be brutual for crazy dps add in a conj that gets awesome output from the troub/wizard combo, then you need a healer which is still normally a fury leaving one spot and a ton of wasted melee buffs which can go on the troub, but that is like putting 93 octane in a pinto.  If in a guild that can use both sides a brig or assassin woudl get a little more benfit as that group buffs a ton of haste and rangers are fairly high on the haste list.  You can also fill the last spot with another caster.  there really is no perfect raid setup, it depends more on what your guild can produce and the talent of the people raiding.</p>

[voxranger]

<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I did think about it, however the amount of added dps to the zerker/OT group would probably drop the zerker some on the hate list as the swashy will pass much more hate tyhan the extra few hits will give to him, also you will have a much greater chance of pulling aggro in that group depending on how strong the MT is at keeping aggro.  However if you built a solid melee dps group instead of 2 hybrid groups then it may be more benficial. A melee dps group woudl probably be dirge/illy/ranger/warden/swashy/monk. </p><p>The key thing in a raid is making sure the tank lives and holds aggro, and a good amount of fights may have adds that have to be dealth with so a OT group is needed to be similiar in str to the MT, but not the exact same setup required.  The other 2 groups you can try to max out wiht what you have availabel to you, but are not as crucial as the MT/OT groups.  Hybrid groups just are tryign to use every buff possibel to max and normaly the onyl scout in ahybrid group is a buff target.  </p><p>The illy/troub/wizard combo can be brutual for crazy dps add in a conj that gets awesome output from the troub/wizard combo, then you need a healer which is still normally a fury leaving one spot and a ton of wasted melee buffs which can go on the troub, but that is like putting 93 octane in a pinto.  If in a guild that can use both sides a brig or assassin woudl get a little more benfit as that group buffs a ton of haste and rangers are fairly high on the haste list.  You can also fill the last spot with another caster.  there really is no perfect raid setup, it depends more on what your guild can produce and the talent of the people raiding.</p></blockquote><p>Ah, ok. I see what you are saying. Essentially, and ideally, you want at least one non caster/dps oriented class in the caster group to soak up buffs that may not be utilized to the best extent by a bard, even if that means the the person filling that role is not maxing out personally. That makes sense.</p><p>Your point about the off tank group also makes a lot of sense considering they will be peeling off on adds.</p><p>Thanks very much for taking time to answer my questions - you have been most helpful and its very much appreciated <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </p>

[Skwor]

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Skwor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Skwor wrote:</cite><blockquote>One suggestion ditch the cloth DPS group, rangers are the top ranged DPS and assassins top melee DPS, no real need for sorcerers they are just lower DPS. Pick up more Illy's rangers and assassins. With the latest patch wizards and warlocks are limiting your raid potential DPS and they are less survivable than the scouts.</blockquote>your smoking crack, wizards > the rest top end.</blockquote>Parses show on all but orange assassins pwn the parse. And after this lu there is a very good chance it is assassins and rangers and now on orange mobs as well. </blockquote>whos parses ? ive seen several top end guilds, and while assassins are well up there nothing will beat a well played wizard +mythical.when i start raiding ? lol ...<span style="color: #ff0033;">instead of posting anon </span>...try your name and your guild, then we can see what relevance to attatch to your posts.</blockquote><p>Try this link <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.eq2flames.com/general-gameplay/18983-assassin-vs-wizard.html," target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/general-ga...vs-wizard.html,</a> not a lot of parses but a lot of discussion on DPS, in the end the threads go to orange casters, yellow melee. Now with the hit rate increases and the wizard epic nerf I suspect melee will own all. </p><p>As for anon are you such a newb you can't type Skwor into eq players? I made a mistake thinking you were the OP which lead to the comment about starting to raid. I was not trying to challange your experience I was suggestion the OP would notice it when he starts raiding. The mistake was one of not reading carefully. I thought I was still chatting to the OP on the subject in that post. Sorry about that. </p><p>Now as for my relevence,</p><p> I currently raid Mid Tier 8 nearly every night 4 to 5 hours a night. I run act on a second monitor and see live graphs each fight and as such exposed to the data every raid on a live basis. The last two nights our ranger (a very good player) has had an increase in DPS of about 800 to 1000, he is doing nothing different and gained no new equipment or spells in that time. This strongly appears to be associated with the last live update.</p><p> I am a ten year +wizard (eq1 and 2, I play nothing else), in eq1 I was in several high end, new content clearing, hard core guilds. In eq2 I have been in the high end min max and now choose a mid tier more casual pace. That enough relavance for you? You don't like my opinion don't read it. Please however don't try to tell others I have no relavance.</p><p>Currently I parse at 3.2 to 4.2 k and the group make up is a troub, warden, conj, necro, misc(note: not a support just anything from a fighter to scout class) most are not heavily masterered out as we are casual, in fact I have more masters than most. I sit at 1000 self buffed int and 52% crits for raids and have half and half masters / adept threes. IMO that isn't a bad parse. If you know how to make it better I am very open to any suggestions. The farming zones for referance are Kor Sha, PR, Thuuga.</p>

[voxranger]

<p>Ok, been thinking about this, and I realize there are a lot of variables, but as i see it (based on the great feed back comming in), the ideal raid set up for Q faction is:</p><p>1. Mt group: Guardian, templar, dirge, swashie, warden, mystic</p><p>2. OT group: Zerker, warden, dirge, swashie, mystic, warden/fury</p><p>3. Caster DPS: Wiz, warlock, troub, illy, Conj, fury</p><p>4. Melee DPS: Paladin, monk, dirge, illy, ranger, warden</p><p>Points:</p><p>1. If group healing was strong enough and if one could find Illy's - one could substitute an illy for one or both additional healers in groups the MT and OT groups for a stronger dps output.</p><p>2. Groups caster dps and melee dps groups will still find benifet from including a caster in melee and a melee in caster, its the second best set up, but its still good.</p>

[lost]

The changes don't really change much at all for a Q raid.  While the accuracy buff ranger got is nice, it isn't something I would build raids around (considering accuracy on yellow mobs is not a problem and unless you are doing vp/avatars, it won't do much to raid's dps).  Realistically if you are talking about an optimal Qeynos raid, you are going to want to make 2 solid tank groups, and then the next two groups should be solid dps groups.  With Qeynos classes, the best dps you are going to get is a predominantly caster group with one spot saved for either a swash or ranger to take the buffs from the mages and healer.  Then, sneak a monk into one of the groups (I chose the OT group since it replaces the 3rd healer/illy from the mt group) because their raid wide buff is a noticable benefit to everyone.MT group:Guard/Dirge/Templar/Mystic/Swash/Illy or WardenOT Group:Templar/Mystic/Dirge/Monk/Berserker/Swash -- would maybe swap berserker/swash for paladin/ranger comboDPS group x2:Illy/Troub/2 of wiz, warlock, conj/any healer but warden/scout

[duuf]

<cite>Skwor wrote:</cite><blockquote>One suggestion ditch the cloth DPS group, rangers are the top ranged DPS and assassins top melee DPS, no real need for sorcerers they are just lower DPS. Pick up more Illy's rangers and assassins. With the latest patch wizards and warlocks are limiting your raid potential DPS and they are less survivable than the scouts.</blockquote>I'll jump all over this with my opinion.. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but,IMOYou are flat out wrong...Cloth rules by a lot when the groups are properly optimized.

[Vorm]

MT Groop: Guard / Defiler / Templar / Warden / Swash / Dirge Off tank: Guard / Mystic / Inqui / Dirge / Assassin / Illu 3rd: Trouby / Illu / Wizard / Conj / Necro / Fury 4rd: Monk / Brigand / Mystic / Dirge(or another reg mana) / Ranger / Bruiser (or anorther scout) The reason why there is a Guard as the offtank is that they dps more (or same) as zerkers, but have Reinforcement with witch they can snap aggro really fast if the Mt falls, and they have Tower of stone. This last one spell help when the MT is down and you need to grab the mob, it let some time to the wards and HoT to be cast. Not to mention that they have Recapture, they're 80 spell witch put the aggro position +1 for every fighter -but him- in the raid, so if the MT suck and loose aggro for whaterver reason the offtank can click this and hop the mt get back in #1. xD

[Jeepned2]

I'm noticing more and more that people are not using Coercers. Not that it surprises me with all the nerfs that we have taken. But it does depress me.

[Lindar Phamoncry]

not to be rude... but lets state this again for those who didnt read the OPHe is GOOD aligned on a PvP server... and cannot use evil classes

[Jeepned2]

Oops, sorry. Just reading so many posts lately about raid setup and seeing how Coercers are slowly but surely not figuring into the picture. But then again, if enough Coercers keep betraying, it won't matter much anyway.

[ToiletBomb]

<p>imo the days of pure melee or caster groups are definitely gone.</p><p> There is really no sense in wasting the buffs that they provide eachother.</p><p> Not having a scout in a group with an illy is just a shame.  You lose the bonuses of IA, what give it to your troub I guess?  </p><p>I have great experience with a Wizard, conj, illy, fury, ranger/brig (I know you don't get brigs but could swap for swash here as well if you're swash heavy), troub.</p><p>Scouts get a big benefit from a troub, str buffage, dehate to say the least.  A ranger grouped in the above scenario gets fury buffs, IA, and conj procs.  Your heavy hitting wizard gets TC, your illy and conj picks up the bonus of sharing a fairly caster centric group.  Everyone in the group gets a bonus from the temp illy buffs and the temp troub buffs.</p><p>The biggest thing in building raid groups imo are utilizing the buffs that are available.  NOT having a scout in that group wastes two excellent buffs that would go to no one or the troub (no offense troubs just think a ranger/swash/pure scout dps is a better recipient for agitate and IA).</p><p>The biggest lesson here is that pure melee or scout groups are a waste.</p><p>If it matters (for perspective), I raid 12 hours a week in a 4 night a week guild.  We generally run 40-55k parses with two trou/illy hybrid groups, a MT group similiar to whats posted above and an OT group consisting of a tank, a brawler tank, two healers, dirge (could be replaced with illy), hate xfer.  Take whats available to you and try to get the biggest benefit out of the buffs you have imo.  </p><p>Just closing thought.  Our warlock routinely requests to be in another group than the wizzy if he can get his own illusionist and the raid dps improves.  Going on and on about the loss of frigid gift is extreme, while it is awesome putting the proper buffs on people who can utilize them is just as beneficial.  If you can field two troubs/two illusionists absolutely no reason you wouldn't want to split them up and squeeze in scouts in each to take advantage of those buffs.</p>

[RanmaBoyType]

<p>im all for having another scout with the troub/ill/fury group, but don think that the buffs are entirely wasted on a troub if there are no other options.  A well played troub can make great use of IA and feral(and hopefully magma seed, and wizzy proc).  granted they might be better on a ranger, they will surely not be wasted.  unless all your troubs are buff bots.  in which then i shed a tear.</p><p>i think putting a ranger with a troub and ill is better as well(than say a dirge), and between the 3 the ranger should hit the haste cap, which is nice for those long delay bows. (troubs add haste, dirge adds dps)</p>

[Korpo]

<cite>Skwor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p> I currently raid Mid Tier 8 nearly every night 4 to 5 hours a night...</p><p>Currently I parse at 3.2 to 4.2 k...</p></blockquote>I see your problem now, you're trying to discuss strategy and endgame stuff as if you know something, but it turns out you're still in the pickup raid zones and parsing T7 numbers.

[KBern]

<p>I have one questions and potentially one suggestion.</p><p>Question: Are you a role playing guild or on a PvP server?  </p><p>Suggestion: If not, and you are serious about raiding...go pick up some evil classes.  Assassins, Brigands, Necros, Defilers, etc.  </p><p>It will help you field a more balanced raid force.</p>