Grouping With Shadowknights (and other fighters)

[Rahatmattata]

I recently joined a guild and they have a ton of crusaders so I find myself grouping with Shadowknights a lot now, 1 of them I've been grouping with quite a bit. 9/10 times I tank, they dps. I know very little about Shadowknights, just the very basics... but pretty sure they are similar to guardians in that they have no de-aggro tools like a scout or brawler or something. Well guard has recapture at least which can be a way of ditching aggro. So... here's the thing (this is mainly referring to mult-mob encounters like those in VoES):I can generally hold down mobs with a warlock sustaining near 150-200% my overall dps without Immobilize/Reinforcement. But say I'm doing 1800 dps... the SK can be doing 2,200 and nothing short of reinforcement is going to get the mobs back on me. I know he's using deathmarch although I don't know exactly what that spell does... just that it's a temp buff and aoe damage makes it better or something, and obviously generates a buttload of threat.Anyway, I seem to be surrounded by a lot of crusaders now (in my guild) that have something to prove or something. Going to places like LoA and harm touching green KoS epic trash and deathmarching the multi-mob encounters in there to flex their 8k dps. They appear to be all about ripping aggro, being as reckless and doing as much dps as possible... when they do rip and start to die... they would rather die than FD. I normally won't moderate another fighter in my group... if I lose aggro... better they get it and not someone else in most cases.TBH on most multi-mob encounters I find it less effort for me and the healers to just let the SK tank. Sure... I could moderate... reinforce... rescue... and even intercede/sentry watch if I had to. But even then... IDK it's like how many specials do you want to blow to get aggro back from a SK. And if you have it bouncing between 2 tanks... well that pisses healers off. So I generally pull and the SK does his thing and we do what we do, but on most multi-mob encounters, he ends up tanking every mob I'm not on.I guess my point here is up until now I rarely had the chance to group with other fighters besides brawlers... how do you guys deal with other fighters? Do you moderate them? Ignore it if they rip and just let them tank? Blow all your specials to lock down aggro (if any are up)? Or do some of you not even struggle to hold aggro against other fighters?

[Carouz]

<p>in my experience, adding another fighter to a guardian group can often be an exercise in frustration...that fighter may spend their entire time trying to prove that they are as "good" at tanking as a guardian...they typically do this is by trying to take aggro</p><p>lets face it, there is no excuse for a fighter to keep stealing aggro, they do less damage than many other classes, and those other classes (usually) have the sense to manage their dps so as not to steal aggro</p><p>so you have two choices:</p><p>a) you can work hard to demonstrate the excellence of guardians as tanks, burning extra taunts and possibly being reckless with pulls to ensure you get and keep aggro</p><p>or b) you can tell the fighter what their role is in the group and the consequences of repeatedly stealing aggro, and boot them if they misbehave</p><p>this is a game, i come here to relax and have fun...and i group for comraderie and co-operation...i am competing against mobs and against other groups vying for the same rewards...i don't want to be competing against a member of my own group</p><p>guardians are basically good for one thing, tanking...shadowknights, paladins, monks and bruisers can play multiple roles in this game</p><p>so i tank, and if a fighter wants to join me, they play a role other than main tank</p><p>the only exception being when a fighter is mentoring from a much higher level...in such cases, even if i'm not convinced they are the better tank, i may let them tank to save face...but in those cases the group better have some good dps classes, because i'm about as good at providing dps as some fighters are at tanking <smiles></p>

[Terron]

I have a guard and an SK. When I am in a group and not tanking with either of them I just try to DPS as much as possible, and not worry about getting aggro.With the guard it just isn't going to happen and even if it did he could take it.The SK can get aggro, especially against groups, but he can also take it (though not as well as I would have loaned some mit to the MT). But I don't aim to take aggro, I just try to DPS as much as possible (which includes using the debuff attached to my group taunt). If things get really bad I have FD. Since I am not bothered about getting aggro, I don't expect the MT to be too bothered about my getting aggro  from other than his main target.Now if it were a mob with a directional AE that needed to get facing away from the party things would be different, but such mobs are very rare when not raiding.

[Wilin]

<p>You can do the same thing to the SK. Just let the SK tank if he keeps stealing aggro. And right after he hits death march, hit reinforcement and just keep asking everyone why he can't keep aggro. </p><p>I'm joking, but seriously, that's the same sort of crap that he's doing. I've been there and I said something to them. If they don't stop it, then I don't group with them anymore.</p>

[Stuge]

<span style="font-family: courier new,courier;">Speaking as a Shadowknight, it sounds to me like your problem isn't with grouping with crusaders, but rather that your guild has a problem with some crappy players who play crusaders.  Yes, if we want to we can play the aggro game like champs and AE and DM the hate list into submission, but that's just irresponsible in a lot of cases.  DM adds a ton of DPS output over time to a group, but an SK that isn't the MT needs to make sure they are clued enough to use it with all appropriate dilligence to ensure they aren't wrecking the flow of things.  If you get the feeling that they're ripping aggro on purpose, quash it quick.  Tell them to lay off and/or instruct your healers not to heal them at all, even between fights.  SKs are excellent group and AE tanks, but also have no problem working with other fighters who may be MT'ing.  Again, it sounds to be like you have some bad players on your hands.</span>

[Latpow]

<p>This is exactly the kind of thread I've been looking for.   Playing a Shadowknight myself, the issue in grouping with other tanks is that many of your best debuffs / dots / etc. also have some kind of taunt component to them.  That, along with the fact that SKs (if played right) will do more damage on a single target and much more damage on multiple targets.  Not to mention that as a tank class they might be sporting some "tank" gear.  So it's not really a tank "superiority" issue... it's that a class like SK tanks by doing as much DPS as they can and naturally no group dehate buffs will apply to them so they pull aggro.  </p><p> Another major issue (with SKs) is Death March.  Death March is useable roughly every 2 - 3 min (depending on AAs and recast gear) and is their "staple ability".  At Adept III it increases a groups cast speed by 55%, DPS by 48?, makes the group immune to all control effects, and provides a huge aggro boost to the SK.  It lasts for 10 seconds and it extended by another 10 seconds if the mob dies up to a minute duration.  So while Death March is up, it turns the whole group into a DPS powerhouse as the cost of losing Aggro to the SK.</p><p>So the best way to deal with having an SK in the group is to work together and know what to expect.   Make a Macro for when you're about to use Reinforcement and then the SK can time Death March with Reinforcment... Win / Win... group gets the Cast Speed / DPS boost, you keep aggro.  On fights that involve multiple mobs... just let the SK tank.  That's what they're designed for, so let them have at it.   They have a great deal of survivability on multipe fights (Huge Physical mitigation boost, aoe lifetap, aoe stun) so they don't need the special healer buffs for those fights.</p><p>Pretty much, just work together instead of having the "one tank tanks all" mentality and your SK grouping experiences will be much smoother.</p>

[Wilin]

I should have also mentioned Moderate. If they are legimately pulling aggro from normal use of their abilities and not purposely competing with you for the the hate list, just drop Moderate on them. It's 36%(or higher with spec) hate reduction FTW. If they keep turning Moderate off, you have a bad egg.

[thial]

I would just request that the SK makes a macro for DM and use reinforcement and blast ur AE's  not sure the recast on DM some one said 2-3 min my reinforcement is 1 min 40 so it should be up when DM is up why not use it I wouldn't moderate the SK though unless there was not a wizzy or another t1 DPS that needs it......If the sk has a problem with that than /kick and tell the sk they can group with you once they learn to cooperate...on the other hand if the SK is better geared than you let them tank, if you are evenly geared than decide who will MT and work together and of course if you are better geared than you MT.....

[BoneSmasher]

<p>In groups with pallies and SKs in my guild, (they are all well equipped.) I ask them to tank so I can goof off and DPS. lol  On raids, they wait for the reinforcement call like every other DPSer with half a brain before they unload with DM, etc.</p><p>As far as LoA or any other below T8 zone, holding agro as a guard is a nightmare becuase of all the greenie multi mob encounters.  Everyone is just simply doing too much DPS too fast.   For T7 zones, if we go in for a laugh or to get someone an update, I normally have a zerker or SK tank since those zones are tailor made for them.</p>

[Vlahkmaak]

I run with sk or zerks in my guards group all the time.  I have no prob running with what other people call un conventional groups - tank heavy, etc, 1 healer, or multiple healers, or no healers nec heavy.   As long as everyone understands thir role in the group - sit back and enjoy the extra group buffs the SK brings to the group (ask them to macro Death march f they ahve not done so already or just speak over vent when they are gonna use it so you can reinforce + blue aoe(s)).  Use moderate if you know its gonna be an issue.  When running with MA from raids (Zerker) I know he can pull aggro easy (and unintentionally) with his near 5k parses.  Without a dirge in the group for me or a coercer to leash him I just moderate and get a few extra hits in.  In short - enjoy grouping with the classes you would not normally get to group with and learn their strengths and weaknesses.  Quick question: When running with 2 warlocks, assassin, necro, and brig who do you moderate: Answer - wait to see who dies first.

[Rahatmattata]

I find for VoES, (and other mulit-mob encounters... I don't raid much) a SK will pop DM on pull or shortly after pull (he waits until I position at least). Reinforcement expires before DM.Also... I have 4,1 in agi for the extra aoe. So... for a multimob encounter that's 3 encounter-wide attacks. Does anyone know without a doubt if immobilize procs reinforcement? If so, that would be 4.Even with aoe's down, I can cycle through the encounter reinforcing each mob. But with DM going, as soon as I switch off the mob he's back on the SK. Anyway... I've been playing with it, basically if reinforcement is up, I can hold aggro pretty well... if it's not the SK is tanking lol. Thanks for the replies.I guess I've decided to just moderate whoever is ripping the most aggro... be it fighter scout or mage... It's just heroic content so there is honestly no need to have a backup tank challenging me for aggro... and if I die (and the other tank has to step up) my moderate dies with me anyway. I guess if another fighter cries about being moderated, s/he has video-game-internets-ego issues. However, if I have to chose between more than 1 person for moderate... I'll mod the non-fighter person every time (since in theory they can't take a hit as well).

[thial]

<cite>Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I run with sk or zerks in my guards group all the time.  I have no prob running with what other people call un conventional groups - tank heavy, etc, 1 healer, or multiple healers, or no healers nec heavy.   As long as everyone understands thir role in the group - sit back and enjoy the extra group buffs the SK brings to the group (ask them to macro Death march f they ahve not done so already or just speak over vent when they are gonna use it so you can reinforce + blue aoe(s)).  Use moderate if you know its gonna be an issue.  When running with MA from raids (Zerker) I know he can pull aggro easy (and unintentionally) with his near 5k parses.  Without a dirge in the group for me or a coercer to leash him I just moderate and get a few extra hits in.  In short - enjoy grouping with the classes you would not normally get to group with and learn their strengths and weaknesses.  <span style="color: #ff0000;">Quick question: When running with 2 warlocks, assassin, necro, and brig who do you moderate: Answer - wait to see who dies first.</span></blockquote>haha yup thats pretty much how I work it as well

[Raahl]

<cite>Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Quick question: When running with 2 warlocks, assassin, necro, and brig who do you moderate: Answer - wait to see who dies first.</blockquote><p>What no healer?  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Assassin/Necro/Brig have a little more deaggro than the Warlocks do.</p><p>Guess the real question is which warlock do you like the best?  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Aull]

<p>I see this happening no matter what plate tank is grouping with each other in most pugs. Some peeps I guess feel like they have really accomplished something when they rip aggro off the mt. My advise for any tank reading this is turn off any taunting procs if you are not the one tanking. Bruisers have a proc hate plus direct damge that they usually keep up so they get a tad more dps even though it doens't proc that often but still is added hate/damage, but in doing so rips alot of aggro if the mt isn't properly buffed.</p><p>I read a statement by Chombatta (hope I spelled that correctly) that states "if you yank it you tank it". If I am main tanking and someone keeps ripping that aggro I just follow Chombatta's advise and let that ripper tank till they die or the healers start getting mad.</p><p>Aggro rips will happen and I can understand that but if it happens consistantly then there is a minor problem.</p>

[Barre]

 The answer here is simple and straight froward. Give them one warning, if they fail to heed it, let them die.  I've often let an aggro hog die nemorous times, then when he complains, I simply spell it out for him, "Control your aggro or die." Tanks have such a hard time keepig agro off the casters and healers without having to compete with melee as well. The casters are usually your DPS anyway and more important to the raid or group than the fighters. Fighters are even less important when it comes to the Healers. Let them die. They will either learn and improve or get [Removed for Content] and leave. Either way your group or raid is better and stronger for it. win/win 

[Vlahkmaak]

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Vlahkmaak@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Quick question: When running with 2 warlocks, assassin, necro, and brig who do you moderate: Answer - wait to see who dies first.</blockquote><p>What no healer?  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Assassin/Necro/Brig have a little more deaggro than the Warlocks do.</p><p>Guess the real question is which warlock do you like the best?  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>Healers are not really needed for COA - just kill crap faster.  Tower of stone + Stonesphere +shield Block + parry + both mit buffs + Freaking Truckload of DPS = dead mob very fast.  If you get low on health use pots and necklace while engaged and bind would as often as you can between fights. 

[jagermonsta]

Let them die.

[Tanino]

<cite>Aull wrote:</cite><blockquote>My advise for any tank reading this is turn off any taunting procs if you are not the one tanking. Bruisers have a proc hate plus direct damge that they usually keep up so they get a tad more dps even though it doens't proc that often but still is added hate/damage, but in doing so rips alot of aggro if the mt isn't properly buffed.</blockquote><p>This is definitely accurate and bruisers have a class detaunt that works really well, so even though the DPS may be lower it should always be used when playing a DPS role.  The only exception is when grouped with a Paladin and Amends is placed on you.  In that case I make sure that all taunting procs are on and I will use single and aoe taunts in order to generate as much hate as possible.  If taunts are used I have seen mulitple people parse over 4000 dps and still not be able to pull aggro off the Paladin.</p><p>I don't see a problem with a person pulling aggro for a bit as long as it doesn't put additional strain on the group.  As a bruiser I can pull aggro even with my detaunts on, but as soon as I take a hit that would require a heal, I reduce my hate position by 1 and put it back on the main tank.  I think its just matter of people knowing what they can and can not get away with, but if they can't learn from mistakes, make sure the healer gets the message that only the main tank gets heals <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Vaelaen]

<p>I have grouped many times with guardians and berserkers being an sk myself. I have some pretty nice buffs that i throw on the MT when i play as an offtank/support/dps role. I can give away some of my mitigation, offer extra chances for the tank to avoid being hit, and my favorite one... my ward. with my aa setup, i become a pretty decent backup healer when the person tanking has my other buffs. when i do have these buffs on the tank, I dont want the agro at all, because i have pretty much gimped myself by doing it. sk's dont have the best taunt abilities, and rely on their dps to maintain agro. so when the sk is in a dps mode, they are still doing the same things they would normally do when tanking (minus the gimpy taunts). thats why i like to play a support role in those situations, with a bit of dps... maybe holding second spot on the parse in groups (if multiple mob pulls).</p><p>the problem is that sk's are supposed to be tanks as well... the way the sk is designed, they have very low avoidance (compared to other tank classes), and are expected to offset this using their lifetaps to mitigate. this is fine in regular groups, but in raids... the lifetaps have no way of keeping up with the mobs dps, therefore makiing the sk not as viable as any of the other tank classes. this gives many sks an inferiority complex. all in all, sk's need a bit of balancing.</p>

[Oo]

I have the problem with Monks often.  They tend to unload AoEs quickly.  I assume they have some buffs that they could take off and reduce their hate gain as well. 

[rabid.pooh]

<cite>Rahatmattata wrote:</cite><blockquote>I recently joined a guild and they have a ton of crusaders so I find myself grouping with Shadowknights a lot now, 1 of them I've been grouping with quite a bit. 9/10 times I tank, they dps. I know very little about Shadowknights, just the very basics... but pretty sure they are similar to guardians in that they have no de-aggro tools like a scout or brawler or something. Well guard has recapture at least which can be a way of ditching aggro. So... here's the thing (this is mainly referring to mult-mob encounters like those in VoES):I can generally hold down mobs with a warlock sustaining near 150-200% my overall dps without Immobilize/Reinforcement. But say I'm doing 1800 dps... the SK can be doing 2,200 and nothing short of reinforcement is going to get the mobs back on me. I know he's using deathmarch although I don't know exactly what that spell does... just that it's a temp buff and aoe damage makes it better or something, and obviously generates a buttload of threat.Anyway, I seem to be surrounded by a lot of crusaders now (in my guild) that have something to prove or something. Going to places like LoA and harm touching green KoS epic trash and deathmarching the multi-mob encounters in there to flex their 8k dps. They appear to be all about ripping aggro, being as reckless and doing as much dps as possible... when they do rip and start to die... they would rather die than FD. I normally won't moderate another fighter in my group... if I lose aggro... better they get it and not someone else in most cases.TBH on most multi-mob encounters I find it less effort for me and the healers to just let the SK tank. Sure... I could moderate... reinforce... rescue... and even intercede/sentry watch if I had to. But even then... IDK it's like how many specials do you want to blow to get aggro back from a SK. And if you have it bouncing between 2 tanks... well that pisses healers off. So I generally pull and the SK does his thing and we do what we do, but on most multi-mob encounters, he ends up tanking every mob I'm not on.I guess my point here is up until now I rarely had the chance to group with other fighters besides brawlers... how do you guys deal with other fighters? Do you moderate them? Ignore it if they rip and just let them tank? Blow all your specials to lock down aggro (if any are up)? Or do some of you not even struggle to hold aggro against other fighters?</blockquote><p>The hardest thing for a tank to do is to step back and recognize he's not the best tank for the job.  These zones your talking about Gaurds are not the best tank job, Zerkers and SKs are meant for these multi mob encounters as most of their abilities have an AOE aspect to them. </p><p>These tanks are not trying to proove how much better than you they are they're just going through their abilities which are doing less damage single target but considerablly more damage multi target than you.  Also plate tanks have no aggro control, no way to loose it only to build it.  SK/Pally/Zerk/Guards hate decay's at different rate then the other classes and really have no way to debuff their hate, so I find most aren't doing it intentionally (of course there are jerks out there).</p><p>I play a guard (my main) an SK (my old main) and a monk.  The one thing I found about my SK is multi mob encounters are way more easier, most times I don't need to bounce around the mobs and single taunt each one, just pick one burn it down choose the next.  My guard however when doing the multimob encounters I have to bounce around the group and build agro on each mob independantly (depending on the abilities of the group of course), single target I rarely drop that reinforcement, but use it quite reguarly in those multimob encounters and generally find it higher stress.</p><p>Like bonesmasher said, sit back and relax let the tanks who are tailor made for these encounter tank ehm, it's a lot less stressfull.</p>

[Seidhkona]

I am a paladin, and I frequently run in a group with a shadowknight or a monk.  ANY tank - or any high-DPS toon - can take aggro. Aggro management is EVERYONE'S JOB.Fortunately, the friends I play with understand this. If they accidentally get aggro once in a while, it's no big deal. But generally they behave...You need to discuss this issue with them. You should have been asking "exactly what does Deathmarch do?" and "You keep getting aggro, let's discuss this so we can group together more effectively." I think a huge part of the problem here is that you haven't been diplomatically and proactively discussing the issue with them.