LU44 Ranged/Ranger changes are NOT ready for Live servers (edited for clarity) [Archive]

Zerion

04-07-2008, 01:11 PM

I've not seen any official posts as to when this is going live... but typically LU's hit the first full week of the month.This LU still needs issues addressed with the Ranger changes and the arrow/bow changes (affects all bow users but REALLY affects rangers)Issue- Mythical ET Point Blank not working on Test - needs to be fixed before this winds up on Live (I do NOT have personal experience of this problem)- Arrow Accuracy change - In addition to fixing the arrow mechanic the 'To Hit' bonus has been reduced significantly on the two main arrows used by Rangers- Arrow Accuracy no reflected correctly - One extensive test has shown that the ranger AA ability 'Extension' is not providing a boost in the 'To Hit' like it is supposed to- Ranger Melee / Ranged disparity.... This is harder to quantify since we are comparing a single Ranged weapon to two duel wielded weapons.. however multiple testers have reported that with SIMILAR stats (STR - DA - CRIT) that melee is out performing ranged (for pure Auto Attack damage)--- For example utilizing legendary melee weapons with 25% melee Crit and 2% Melee DA I was getting higher DPS then when utilizing my Fabled ET with 29% Ranged Crit and 22% Ranged DA... --- IDEALLY a ranger equiped with the 3rd best bow in the game (according to the Dev working on our changes) should be able to out DPS a ranger with 2 duel wielded weapons (from group instances (COA/Maidens/VOES)) if both have the same DPS mod, haste, Ranged Crit, Ranged DA, Melee Crit, and Melee DA). Worse case should match dps (because in reality these are all one group obtainable weapons)Comments?Does anyone feel this update is ready to go LIVE?

Ranja

04-07-2008, 01:21 PM

<cite>Zerion@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've not seen any official posts as to when this is going live... but typically LU's hit the first full week of the month.This LU still needs issues addressed with the Ranger changes and the arrow/bow changes (affects all bow users but REALLY affects rangers)Issue- Mythical ET Point Blank not working on Test - needs to be fixed before this winds up on Live (I do NOT have personal experience of this problem)- Arrow Accuracy change - In addition to fixing the arrow mechanic the 'To Hit' bonus has been reduced significantly on the two main arrows used by Rangers- Arrow Accuracy no reflected correctly - One extensive test has shown that the ranger AA ability 'Extension' is not providing a boost in the 'To Hit' like it is supposed to- Ranger Melee / Ranged disparity.... This is harder to quantify since we are comparing a single Ranged weapon to two duel wielded weapons.. however multiple testers have reported that with SIMILAR stats (STR - DA - CRIT) that melee is out performing ranged (for pure Auto Attack damage)--- For example utilizing legendary melee weapons with 25% melee Crit and 2% Melee DA I was getting higher DPS then when utilizing my Fabled ET with 29% Ranged Crit and 22% Ranged DA... --- IDEALLY a ranger equiped with the 3rd best bow in the game (according to the Dev working on our changes) should be able to out DPS a ranger with 2 duel wielded weapons (from group instances (COA/Maidens/VOES)) if both have the same DPS mod, haste, Ranged Crit, Ranged DA, Melee Crit, and Melee DA). Worse case should match dps (because in reality these are all one group obtainable weapons)Comments?Does anyone feel this update is ready to go LIVE?</blockquote>No this update is nowehere near ready to go live but it will be pushed there as is, I highly suspect. And then, if we are lucky, there might be some fixes in the next update (months away). If we are unlucky, we will be considered "fixed" and Aerlick will move on never to touch us again.New players coming to the game will look at the ranger class and say "why would anyone want to play that class". Never knowing that we were once a DPS class and never understanding the sad history of the ranger in EQ2.

Elorah

04-07-2008, 01:35 PM

Last I heard, it is scheduled to go live tomorrow.. April 8th...<a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Main Page</a>The Update is planned for Tuesday, April the 8th, 2008! Are you ready?

Freliant

04-07-2008, 01:56 PM

Sorry to burst your bubble, but LU 44 is not a ranger exclusive update. There are some changes to the ranger that are probably still in need of tweaking, but I do not see these are serious enough to stop an entire LU from going live. Even with the apparent "bugs" that the ranger is experiencing, they are still doing better now than on live. The problems you have expressed fall into 2 catagories in relation to the rangers only: Accuracy (both on arrows and on the AA path), and Ranged vs melee AA. Its overblowing it to say the entire LU has to be delayed because of these 2 issues. (The Ranger Mythical is another story, and it should be fixed, but for something that affects so little of the population of the game, it can wait a little more... I mean, how many rangers per server have their Mythical? I am willing to be less than 100 rangers across all servers have it, our of the full subcriber base of 100,000+ ... yeah, not really something that should delay this LU)

Tyberi

04-07-2008, 02:25 PM

Sorry to burst your bubble Freliant, but stopping the rolling out of broken content and mechanics is the entire purpose of testing.A fundamental mechanics change is top priority and you are glossing those problems over trying to downplay what it is actually affecting in game.If the ranged combat mechanics change, the largest and most game wide affecting part of LU44, is not working properly and there are bugs in those systems then give a reason to roll the LU out.All you do is troll threads and fan boy out saying everything is fine, nothing is as bad as the numbers and testing is showing it to be. Stop trolling.

LygerT

04-07-2008, 02:36 PM

nope, i think you are missing the point. if we only have 2 GUs a year then EQ2 would be a ghost town.

Freliant

04-07-2008, 02:42 PM

<cite>Tyberion@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry to burst your bubble Freliant, but stopping the rolling out of broken content and mechanics is the entire purpose of testing.A fundamental mechanics change is top priority and you are glossing those problems over trying to downplay what it is actually affecting in game.If the ranged combat mechanics change, the largest and most game wide affecting part of LU44, is not working properly and there are bugs in those systems then give a reason to roll the LU out.All you do is troll threads and fan boy out saying everything is fine, nothing is as bad as the numbers and testing is showing it to be. Stop trolling.</blockquote>Wow... All I do is troll? Please, it would do you a world of good to read all my posts. I regularly read all the forums, give good constructive feedback and when necesery, I even apologise when I say something that I later find is wrong. When was the last time you apologised in any thread Tyberion?But getting back on subject, it is a very limited mind that thinks that because everything is not revolving around you that it should be changed. The "ranged auto attack" changes will affect everyone overall, but the only class that does ranged auto attack damage on a consistant basis is the ranger. The changes are intended to make the ranger class overall better than they currently are, and there are numerous posts from rangers that have done the tests that show that the ranger class is indeed doing better on test than on live. The change that you are implying are so big that the entire LU should not be pushed are really not that big. There is a new raid zone coming in, new changes to "fluff" graphics (like displaying the bow instead of melee weapons) and other stuff that in no way is "ranger specific" in this LU, and fighting to make the entire LU not come out just because you are unhappy about some of the changes is not a very accurate thing to say.Discussions about the changes that still need to be made to the ranger class should still and will continue after this LU goes out. In those threads, I recommend that you bring up what other people have been noticing: under certain circumstances, rangers can now get more dps from melee AA than ranged AA, which I do believe is wrong. Anyways, you are entitled to your opinion, but I just want to put it out there, that its a failed opinion.

Tyberi

04-07-2008, 02:44 PM

You mean more so than it is already turning into from broken mechanics and systems that are short sighted?I'll name a few to shorten any arguments. Diminishing Returns on some stats/systems but not all, AA lines that are useless, broken ranged mechanics, imbalanced class roles within even the same class type(chanter/pred/warrior to name three), lack of itemization or lack of progression of risk vs reward in itemization.Now why not instead of taking it to an extreme and saying everyone who says this LU is not ready is advocating only a couple LUs a year but instead looking at it like these people want to push back a single LU a week so that the next LU isn't focused on fixing this LU.

Dajaan

04-07-2008, 02:45 PM

<cite>Tyberion@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>nothing is as bad as the numbers and testing is showing it to be. </blockquote>rangers just have to realize that they never were supposed to be top tier dps. while they were, it was just because of other classes being broken. they are fine staying at max range, and shooting their stingy little arrows, but that's about it. :>i'd be really disappointed if the LU was delayed because of such a nonrelevant class.

Freliant

04-07-2008, 02:51 PM

<cite>Dajaan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tyberion@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>nothing is as bad as the numbers and testing is showing it to be. </blockquote>rangers just have to realize that they never were supposed to be top tier dps. while they were, it was just because of other classes being broken. they are fine staying at max range, and shooting their stingy little arrows, but that's about it. :>i'd be really disappointed if the LU was delayed because of such a nonrelevant class.</blockquote>lol, I like this post. It exemplifies what you are acusing me of: trolling. He states that the entire ranger class is xyz, insults the arrows and its mechanics, and then calls the ranger class non-relevant. ^_^ See the difference between my post and this one? Anyways, just wanted to point this out to you, so you can see what true trolling looks like <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Tyberi

04-07-2008, 02:51 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tyberion@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry to burst your bubble Freliant, but stopping the rolling out of broken content and mechanics is the entire purpose of testing.A fundamental mechanics change is top priority and you are glossing those problems over trying to downplay what it is actually affecting in game.If the ranged combat mechanics change, the largest and most game wide affecting part of LU44, is not working properly and there are bugs in those systems then give a reason to roll the LU out.All you do is troll threads and fan boy out saying everything is fine, nothing is as bad as the numbers and testing is showing it to be. Stop trolling.</blockquote>Wow... All I do is troll? Please, it would do you a world of good to read all my posts. I regularly read all the forums, give good constructive feedback and when necesery, I even apologise when I say something that I later find is wrong. When was the last time you apologised in any thread Tyberion?The last time I was wrong. I tend to research what I talk about so that is very rare.But getting back on subject, it is a very limited mind that thinks that because everything is not revolving around you that it should be changed. The "ranged auto attack" changes will affect everyone overall, but the only class that does ranged auto attack damage on a consistant basis is the ranger. The changes are intended to make the ranger class overall better than they currently are, and there are numerous posts from rangers that have done the tests that show that the ranger class is indeed doing better on test than on live.The tests you are pointing out are due to two factors unrelated to the actual mechanics changes being implemented to ranged combat. One is the improved melee CA DPS and the other is the much higher damage modification on arrows combined with a level increase.Ranged auto attack including the improved arrow damage and level rating is approximately the same to slightly(5% is about average gain) stronger. Where as melee auto attack is with worse rated/quality weapons and lower crit/double attack values still out DPSing ranged auto attack. The change that you are implying are so big that the entire LU should not be pushed are really not that big. There is a new raid zone coming in, new changes to "fluff" graphics (like displaying the bow instead of melee weapons) and other stuff that in no way is "ranger specific" in this LU, and fighting to make the entire LU not come out just because you are unhappy about some of the changes is not a very accurate thing to say.Mechanics changes of any sort affect all levels of play. A new raid zone is all fine, but those have been added/made playable with hotfixes before where as mechanics changes are a fundamental change to the way classes perform.And please, please tell me you didn't try to downplay a mechanics change's importance by talking about graphical fluff like different display options for weapons.Discussions about the changes that still need to be made to the ranger class should still and will continue after this LU goes out. In those threads, I recommend that you bring up what other people have been noticing: under certain circumstances, rangers can now get more dps from melee AA than ranged AA, which I do believe is wrong. Anyways, you are entitled to your opinion, but I just want to put it out there, that its a failed opinion.</blockquote>And as always, you continue to downplay the game wide affecting broken aspects to promote fluff and status quo.

Freliant

04-07-2008, 03:00 PM

Tyberion, even the most exhaustive studies will still yield mistakes. And it takes alot more to say "sorry, I was wrong", than to never admit you have been wrong, or even "rarely". I also research alot of what I say, which is the reason many of my posts speak about what others have said on the same subject, seasoned with my own reasoning.Overall, what will be happening in this LU as it relates to combat changes, is as follows: 1) Ranged auto attack is being decreased, and the stronger the arrows used, the more they will miss as compared to current numbers on live. 2) Rangers are getting an overall DPS boost.What the OP has stated is that because of some underlying problem, ranged auto attack is now doing less overall damage than ranged auto attack with the same Crit and DA rating, and because of this, the entire LU should not be rolled out. First off, the only class that does consistant ranged AA is the ranger class, overall, they are still going to be doing much better when the LU comes out... so the rest of us, that used ranged AA as mainly a method of pulling, this is of very little consequense.

44Dragon

04-07-2008, 03:02 PM

This thread almost got started before the trolls set up camp. I'm so glad the mods are doing such a wonderful job keeping the trolls out from under the bridges.GO TEAM!

Odawnus Haste

04-07-2008, 03:05 PM

<cite>Zerion@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've not seen any official posts as to when this is going live... but typically LU's hit the first full week of the month.This LU still needs issues addressed with the Ranger changes and the arrow/bow changes (affects all bow users but REALLY affects rangers)Issue- Mythical ET Point Blank not working on Test - needs to be fixed before this winds up on Live (I do NOT have personal experience of this problem)- Arrow Accuracy change - In addition to fixing the arrow mechanic the 'To Hit' bonus has been reduced significantly on the two main arrows used by Rangers- Arrow Accuracy no reflected correctly - One extensive test has shown that the ranger AA ability 'Extension' is not providing a boost in the 'To Hit' like it is supposed to- Ranger Melee / Ranged disparity.... This is harder to quantify since we are comparing a single Ranged weapon to two duel wielded weapons.. however multiple testers have reported that with SIMILAR stats (STR - DA - CRIT) that melee is out performing ranged (for pure Auto Attack damage)--- For example utilizing legendary melee weapons with 25% melee Crit and 2% Melee DA I was getting higher DPS then when utilizing my Fabled ET with 29% Ranged Crit and 22% Ranged DA... --- IDEALLY a ranger equiped with the 3rd best bow in the game (according to the Dev working on our changes) should be able to out DPS a ranger with 2 duel wielded weapons (from group instances (COA/Maidens/VOES)) if both have the same DPS mod, haste, Ranged Crit, Ranged DA, Melee Crit, and Melee DA). Worse case should match dps (because in reality these are all one group obtainable weapons)Comments?Does anyone feel this update is ready to go LIVE?</blockquote>Mythical point blank is working on test, damage change no longer shows up in stats though. Hard to tell if you are getting correct damage amount, but you do AA for higher amounts the closer you get. Looks like same change made it to live in one of the latest updates, no clue why the change. Wonder if the change was due to dps mod also adding to the bonus.

44Dragon

04-07-2008, 03:09 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tyberion, even the most exhaustive studies will still yield mistakes. And it takes alot more to say "sorry, I was wrong", than to never admit you have been wrong, or even "rarely". I also research alot of what I say, which is the reason many of my posts speak about what others have said on the same subject, seasoned with my own reasoning.Overall, what will be happening in this LU as it relates to combat changes, is as follows: 1) Ranged auto attack is being decreased, and the stronger the arrows used, the more they will miss as compared to current numbers on live. 2) Rangers are getting an overall DPS boost.What the OP has stated is that because of some underlying problem, ranged auto attack is now doing less overall damage than ranged auto attack with the same Crit and DA rating, and because of this, the entire LU should not be rolled out. First off, the only class that does consistant ranged AA is the ranger class, overall, they are still going to be doing much better when the LU comes out... so the rest of us, that used ranged AA as mainly a method of pulling, this is of very little consequense.</blockquote>Nobody said the entire update had to be rolled back...except you. Jump to a conclusion, and then talk about it for a while. Hope you feel better for missing the point and saying the same old tired song and dance you have posted on several other threads.Good show.

Freliant

04-07-2008, 03:25 PM

<cite>Pogralien@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tyberion, even the most exhaustive studies will still yield mistakes. And it takes alot more to say "sorry, I was wrong", than to never admit you have been wrong, or even "rarely". I also research alot of what I say, which is the reason many of my posts speak about what others have said on the same subject, seasoned with my own reasoning.Overall, what will be happening in this LU as it relates to combat changes, is as follows: 1) Ranged auto attack is being decreased, and the stronger the arrows used, the more they will miss as compared to current numbers on live. 2) Rangers are getting an overall DPS boost.What the OP has stated is that because of some underlying problem, ranged auto attack is now doing less overall damage than ranged auto attack with the same Crit and DA rating, and because of this, the entire LU should not be rolled out. First off, the only class that does consistant ranged AA is the ranger class, overall, they are still going to be doing much better when the LU comes out... so the rest of us, that used ranged AA as mainly a method of pulling, this is of very little consequense.</blockquote>Nobody said the entire update had to be rolled back...except you. Jump to a conclusion, and then talk about it for a while. Hope you feel better for missing the point and saying the same old tired song and dance you have posted on several other threads.Good show.</blockquote>Title of thread: "LU44 is NOT ready for Live servers". What I said: "I do not see these are serious enough to stop an entire LU from going live"I also said: "The change that you are implying are so big that the entire LU should not be pushed are really not that big."And finally: "What the OP has stated is that because of some underlying problem, ranged auto attack is now doing less overall damage than ranged auto attack with the same Crit and DA rating, and because of this, the entire LU should not be rolled out."The OP stated LU44 is not ready for Live... what do you see that implying? Personally, I see that as meaning: LU44 should not be released until xyz is fixed. If you did not see that as the meaning, then what we have is a matter of differences in interpretation, which will not hold up in court. The OP didn't say in the title "ranged mechanics in LU44 are not ready for live", he stated LU44 as a whole is not ready for live, and then he only spoke about issues affecting rangers.Anyways, if you want to knit-pick at my posts in such detail, I do not see any reason to continue to pay attention to them (at least as they relate to this thread). If my overall point is a valid one, then leave it at that, trying to find a minute fault is just not what I expect of an intellegent conversation.

Zerion

04-07-2008, 03:26 PM

I guess i should have specified... The Ranged Combat Changes are not Ready for LIVE as they are...The other content with this LU may or may not be ready as most of the test results/feedback have concerned this specific change.I can count the number of posts concerning the new Raid zone: HATE on one hand...The posts on the ranged combat change however are in the 1000+ posts range...I'm not saying its totally broken either.. I just think they need to be addressed ALOT better then they have been...When we are seeing a very very slight increase against an opponent that is 4 levels lower then most of the testers what can we expect to see when we are fighting epic mobs 4+ levels over us when our accuracy is goes from a +30% bonus to a 10% bonus?

Freliant

04-07-2008, 03:30 PM

<cite>Zerion@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I guess i should have specified... The Ranged Combat Changes are not Ready for LIVE as they are...The other content with this LU may or may not be ready as most of the test results/feedback have concerned this specific change.I can count the number of posts concerning the new Raid zone: HATE on one hand...The posts on the ranged combat change however are in the 1000+ posts range...I'm not saying its totally broken either.. I just think they need to be addressed ALOT better then they have been...When we are seeing a very very slight increase against an opponent that is 4 levels lower then most of the testers what can we expect to see when we are fighting epic mobs 4+ levels over us when our accuracy is goes from a +30% bonus to a 10% bonus?</blockquote>Heh, TY Zerion, this is something I can agree with. Well specified, and talks about what is really the matter in relation to the whole of LU44, and what you are saying is my point exactly. Changes do need to still be made, but nothing so mayor that the whole of LU44 has to be delayed. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Entilor

04-07-2008, 03:31 PM

Actually .. that may be from a 35% bonus (+30% arrow and +5% extension) to a 10% bonus.Extension appears to be broken on test > <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=414018" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=414018</a>Ent aka Etesith L80 ranger

Aeralik

04-07-2008, 04:08 PM

Extension only affects combat arts for the hit mod portion and not normal auto attack so there was no change with this. All my tests with the mythical ranged bow also appear to be adding in the 20% damage at close range.

Entilor

04-07-2008, 04:14 PM

Zerion

04-07-2008, 04:49 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Extension only affects combat arts and not normal auto attack so there was no change with this. All my tests with the mythical ranged bow also appear to be adding in the 20% damage at close range.</blockquote>Aeralik, As Entilor states the description clearly states 'All Ranged Attacks' not 'All Ranged Combat Arts'.... I also disagree that you state that it only affects Combat Arts... If we this was the case then we would be seeing Ranged Combat Arts becoming available BEFORE ranged auto attack becomes available... since Combat Art Damages range would be 15% longer then bow auto attack.As for the mythical it appears there was some change that made people believe it wasn't providing the boost it does on live... Sorry if you spent time verifying that it wasn't broken... I was merely summarizing...I would like you to address the other issues however... The accuracy bonus reduction of arrows? Why is Melee auto attack out damaging ranged auto attack at the same DPS/Crit/DA levels? (comparing single group legendary melee, and the Ranger Fabled ET) (I am NOT saying that if I max out my Ranged CRIT/DA using AA's that melee is out damaging ranged.. only if I lower my ranged to get close to melee crit/da do I see melee exceeding ranged (even with ranged crit 4% higher and ranged double attack 20% higher)If this Update goes Live with the ranged the way it is will it break things more then they are broken on live? Maybe not... I think the Accuracy will have a much bigger negative affect then the benefits we get in this update we fighting raid mobs....My fear is that once this goes live the thought process will be "rangers fixed.. move on" and I still don't think they are

Windowlicker

04-07-2008, 04:59 PM

The problems listed in the original post aren't good enough reasons to hold back a patch.

Zerion

04-07-2008, 05:07 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problems listed in the original post aren't good enough reasons to hold back a patch.</blockquote>Agreed... I changed the subject to more accurately reflect what shouldn't be taken live...

Noaani

04-07-2008, 05:52 PM

Noaani

04-07-2008, 05:55 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problems listed in the original post aren't good enough reasons to hold back a patch.</blockquote>Agreed, but saying that, the problems in the OP should also never see a live server.Good thing this is all code we are talking about, and can be seperated into what is and is not good, with only what is ready going on to live servers, not that this will ever happen.

Gungo

04-07-2008, 06:21 PM

The mythical is working.Extension has no change from live to test.The arrow accuracy has been addressed as part of the overall global melee/ranged accuracy increase.Rangers are doing more overall dps on test with unbroken arrows then live with broken arrows.whats the issue again?Really they have been addressing the concerns most rangers are not testing these changes and are board camping. At least I Rarely ever see a ranger on test. The few i have seen on test have posted thier results on this baord. And what does everyone of those parsing saay now? That they see an overall gain in dps from live to test. What rangers keep trying to say is they want more dps. (hitrates, betterbows, more procs, etc)What aerilik is saying is you do enough dps already.I don't know what other clarification you need.

Tyberi

04-07-2008, 06:48 PM

Exactly Gungo, Ranged combat DPS was not increased by anywhere near a significant amount, was actually slightly handicapped if you consider the accuracy lost. The improved hit rates for melee/ranged base values helps every physical damage class type, but the accuracy drop on the arrows is hindering more than the improved damage on the arrows is helping.Giving all classes slightly better hit rates will increase the edge some classes have in DPS(Assassin/Brigand/Swashbuckler most notably) over other classes.The explanation given for dropping the hit rate modification on arrows was the improved/debuffed melee/ranged avoidance scaling for mobs. This is keeping ranger hit rates at about the same percentage while all other classes are gaining in hit rate.The improved DPS on test, as I have explained before, is from the improved melee CAs and the additional. Ranged Auto Attack, with same mods/crit/da, is for all intents and purposes the same as it is on live. A slight gain has been recorded but this can be laid solely at the feet of improving the actual damage modification on the arrows, which for the amount of increase of damage on the arrows and the actual gains in damage is much lower than it would be on live currently, preLU44, if the arrows were increased to function at the proper levels and had the same damage modification increase.Hell, the tests against the fabled ET with more crit and much more DA, and heroic instance dropped one handers dual wielded, with less crit and much less DA, alone show the disparity in the new mechanics between ranged and melee DPS.It appears that Ranger DPS is going to be now a cookie cutter of Assassin DPS.Melee a mob using melee CAs and Auto Attack but with the class defining twist of having to joust out of melee auto attack range to fire off ranged CAs.A pity that the Ranger epic is a bow instead of a main hand weapon.

Dajaan

04-07-2008, 07:01 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>lol, I like this post. It exemplifies what you are acusing me of: trolling. He states that the entire ranger class is xyz, insults the arrows and its mechanics, and then calls the ranger class non-relevant. ^_^ See the difference between my post and this one? Anyways, just wanted to point this out to you, so you can see what true trolling looks like <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>remember what the game was like back in T5 and how overpowered the ranger was compared to an assassin? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />simply put, rangers need to be completely redesigned, as they are the only class relying on arrows to do their dmg, but to do so you previously have to specify the class, and i bet 100% of all rangers want to be (at least) on par with assassins, dmg wise.do you really think that will happen?

RoXx

04-07-2008, 07:03 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>The mythical is working.Extension has no change from live to test.The arrow accuracy has been addressed as part of the overall global melee/ranged accuracy increase.Rangers are doing more overall dps on test with unbroken arrows then live with broken arrows.whats the issue again?Really they have been addressing the concerns most rangers are not testing these changes and are board camping. At least I Rarely ever see a ranger on test. The few i have seen on test have posted thier results on this baord. And what does everyone of those parsing saay now? That they see an overall gain in dps from live to test. What rangers keep trying to say is they want more dps. (hitrates, betterbows, more procs, etc)What aerilik is saying is you do enough dps already.I don't know what other clarification you need.</blockquote>I always see you trolling around these forums. You just seem to want to mess with people and dont care if it leads to players leaving the game. Why must you intervene with this case when you probably dont even have a ranger?Aeralik, the ranger community is concerned. You have decided to "fix" us in some areas, boost us in some and nerf us in some. The nerfing part was never needed and that is why you are seeing concerned players all over now.I hope you take us into your concideration. Albeit a small portion of the game, we are a true part of the community.

Freliant

04-07-2008, 07:28 PM

<cite>RoXxer wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>The mythical is working.Extension has no change from live to test.The arrow accuracy has been addressed as part of the overall global melee/ranged accuracy increase.Rangers are doing more overall dps on test with unbroken arrows then live with broken arrows.whats the issue again?Really they have been addressing the concerns most rangers are not testing these changes and are board camping. At least I Rarely ever see a ranger on test. The few i have seen on test have posted thier results on this baord. And what does everyone of those parsing saay now? That they see an overall gain in dps from live to test. What rangers keep trying to say is they want more dps. (hitrates, betterbows, more procs, etc)What aerilik is saying is you do enough dps already.I don't know what other clarification you need.</blockquote>I always see you trolling around these forums. You just seem to want to mess with people and dont care if it leads to players leaving the game. Why must you intervene with this case when you probably dont even have a ranger?Aeralik, the ranger community is concerned. You have decided to "fix" us in some areas, boost us in some and nerf us in some. The nerfing part was never needed and that is why you are seeing concerned players all over now.I hope you take us into your concideration. Albeit a small portion of the game, we are a true part of the community. </blockquote>Roxxer, just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean they are trolling. I happen to agree with Gungo in that alot of the issues have already been addressed. Aside from some display situations, like where the persona window, does not reflect what the ranger is actually doing should be fixed, but that is another issue. The ranger has seen improvements, and they make him better than they are on live, and hence, this update should be a welcome addition. Or would you prefer things stay exactly as they are on live now? Anyways, Just take the changes with a grain of salt, and continue posting on what additional changes or upgrades you want to see. These, however, are going to be different from what wastouched upon this time around. For example, ask for more self procs... for example, in many lore, and even in EQ2 lore, with the droag, you can light arrows prior to shooting them, or coat them in poison, or who knows, even magically freeze them or place neurotoxins on them. Request those type of proc additions to your attacks. Something unique from poisons that rangers only can use on their arrows, and have it as a permanent proc, of which you can only have one going at a time, or which take up some concentration slots. Getting a permanent proc off every shot will make other bows that have short a viable alternative again, and people would either look for a really high delay bow, or a really low delay bow. Think outside the current limits like that, and you might just have more of a response from the dev team to look into it.

LygerT

04-07-2008, 08:13 PM

i guess i'm a troll for wanting to not wait for a GU to roll out.the fixing of rangers has been in the works for over a month straight, what makes you think a single week is going to cure everything?

Windowlicker

04-07-2008, 11:01 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>i guess i'm a troll for wanting to not wait for a GU to roll out.the fixing of rangers has been in the works for over a month straight, what makes you think a single week is going to cure everything? </blockquote>Agreed. And to be honest they could be doing more constructive things like nerfing Berserkers more.LU 45 - Berserkers will now use the cloth armor-type, and wield rubber chickens

Bloodfa

04-07-2008, 11:24 PM

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>i guess i'm a troll for wanting to not wait for a GU to roll out.the fixing of rangers has been in the works for over a month straight, what makes you think a single week is going to cure everything? </blockquote>Agreed. And to be honest they could be doing more constructive things like nerfing Berserkers more.LU 45 - Berserkers will now use the cloth armor-type, and wield rubber chickens</blockquote>... and they'll still kick the crap out of Necro's.

Noaani

04-08-2008, 08:24 AM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite> <blockquote>Roxxer, just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean they are trolling. </blockquote>While true, the fact that he readily admits to being a troll, and often posting opinions that he does not himself believe in, simply to encourage negative responses, and that he will provide counterpoints to arguments simply for the sake of providing a counterpoint, reguardless of how valid it is or is not, and will argue that non valid counterpoint until others in the conversation simply give up, makes him a troll.

Ran

04-08-2008, 08:55 AM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>..... but for something that affects so little of the population of the game, it can wait a little more... </blockquote>You know such a statement is a red flag for some classes cause they have a low population in game so they can wait until all other classes are fixed? Play such a class and talk THEN what you think about such statements when you wait over years for anything....When they do something.. it should be done complete.. not just parts cause other players crying for attention. For my experience.. rangers were waiting for parts of this GU over months and longer so take more time to make it right. No one cares for 2 days more when the ranger part is fixed then.

Trojenn

04-08-2008, 10:12 AM

First of All I think the Shard of Hate or rather ( Hate for Melee Scouts) needs to be released, do to the recent clearing of VP and Trakanon and the killing of Avatars there realy isn't much left for those idividuals, delaying the release of that part is not needed, the longer they take in releasing it the higher the chance of losing more people that play eq2.. As for the rangers, I have posted in this thread already do to rangers. I personaly play a swashbuckler and the only thing i can say is I want my competition back. EoF, KoS, DoF rangers and assasins were top DPS hands down with an occasionaly Rouge sneaking up into third, but since the release of RoK the highest to DPS'ers i have seen are Rouges and Assasins ( we rock the top of the parse) with sadly to say Berserkers pulling up 3rd and 4th place quite frequently. So IMHO this update for the rangers needs to be fixed entirely before they release the update to rangers.If Rangers from the begining were not supposed to be parsing that high then maybe they should have fixed that way back in DoF atleast but trying to nerf them now after so many expansions later is wrong. Give them back what they had and leave it as that. Not to mention i am tired of getting blasted because i pulled a 6-7K Parse and ranger is 2-3K behind me.

Freliant

04-08-2008, 11:04 AM

<cite>Noaani wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite> <blockquote>Roxxer, just because someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean they are trolling. </blockquote>While true, the fact that he readily admits to being a troll, and often posting opinions that he does not himself believe in, simply to encourage negative responses, and that he will provide counterpoints to arguments simply for the sake of providing a counterpoint, reguardless of how valid it is or is not, and will argue that non valid counterpoint until others in the conversation simply give up, makes him a troll.</blockquote>I did not know that. I will keep that in mind next time I see his posts...And Erudianer, when I stated, "something that affects so little of the population of the game," you know very well I was refering only to the Mythical holding Rangers, which indeed is a very very small population of the entire game. The Mythical has been fixed (thankfully), but if it hadn't, and the fix was going to take a few more days or weeks, I didn't see any reason to delay an entire expansion just for that fix that could easily come (and did) in a hotfix. I am a firm believer that classes as a whole should always be looked at an improved when needed, but not at the cost of the entire player population. What do they call it? Kill the camel trying to swat a fly? Eh... don't rember exactly how it goes, but you get the idea.

Entilor

04-08-2008, 11:26 AM

<cite>121 dirtybird wrote:</cite><blockquote>First of All I think the Shard of Hate or rather ( Hate for Melee Scouts) needs to be released, do to the recent clearing of VP and Trakanon and the killing of Avatars there realy isn't much left for those idividuals, delaying the release of that part is not needed, the longer they take in releasing it the higher the chance of losing more people that play eq2.. As for the rangers, I have posted in this thread already do to rangers. I personaly play a swashbuckler and the only thing i can say is I want my competition back. EoF, KoS, DoF rangers and assasins were top DPS hands down with an occasionaly Rouge sneaking up into third, but since the release of RoK the highest to DPS'ers i have seen are Rouges and Assasins ( we rock the top of the parse) with sadly to say Berserkers pulling up 3rd and 4th place quite frequently. So IMHO this update for the rangers needs to be fixed entirely before they release the update to rangers.If Rangers from the begining were not supposed to be parsing that high then maybe they should have fixed that way back in DoF atleast but trying to nerf them now after so many expansions later is wrong. Give them back what they had and leave it as that. Not to mention i am tired of getting blasted because i pulled a 6-7K Parse and ranger is 2-3K behind me. </blockquote>"First of All I think the Shard of Hate .."I Agree .. Shard of Hate etc should be released ASAP. An overall loss of players is not in any players best interest. "If Rangers from the begining were not supposed to be parsing that high then maybe they should have fixed that way back in DoF atleast but trying to nerf them now after so many expansions later is wrong."I Agree .. Many players created there rangers based on the class performance, worked for long periods to maximize thier character in terms of lvl/AA and gear while striving to imporve thier ability to play the class. Now it seems all for nothing ... I feel the worst for those, I know of five personally, that recently aquired thier Rigid Scale Bow. For many it was a goal that took years to accomplish.Ent Aka Etesith

Tyberi

04-08-2008, 11:48 AM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>What do they call it? Kill the camel trying to swat a fly? Eh... don't rember exactly how it goes, but you get the idea.</blockquote>This applies perfectly to giving the patch a go ahead for live server deployment right away just to appease the people who are crying for more stuff right away rather than everything working properly.Swat the fly of the impatient few and kill the game for development for months trying to fix altered mechanics on top of developing the next LU, on top of the other bugs that come with every LU, and the continued attempts to lessen the lag when more than ten people are in an area.

Freliant

04-08-2008, 12:12 PM

<cite>Tyberion@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>What do they call it? Kill the camel trying to swat a fly? Eh... don't rember exactly how it goes, but you get the idea.</blockquote>This applies perfectly to giving the patch a go ahead for live server deployment right away just to appease the people who are crying for more stuff right away rather than everything working properly.Swat the fly of the impatient few and kill the game for development for months trying to fix altered mechanics on top of developing the next LU, on top of the other bugs that come with every LU, and the continued attempts to lessen the lag when more than ten people are in an area.</blockquote>lol tyberion, trying to use my own anology against me. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Are you saying that the rangers are the camel and the entire server population is the fly ^_^. Shard of hate, and all the other improvements (aside from the Ranger only ones) are ready for release... that is the camel. The ranger updates, which as a whole are still better than what is currently on live, are the fly... We want the fly dead, ie, we want the rangers fixed, but we don't want to kill the camel in the process, ie, delay the entire LU just for the sake of a few changes that can be fixed in a small hotfix. Anyways, I am bowing out of this thread, and overall conversation on rangers. Was fun while it was going, but now I feel like the horse is dead enough and bringing a few shotguns to make sure is quite inadequate <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Neiloch

04-08-2008, 12:29 PM

I say push it all to live and get some real feedback under the conditions that ultimately matter: Live servers.You can have it on test all you want but its not even going to get a 50% of the data you will get on a live server, test is only better than looking at it on paper. Once the 'live ranger' and their groups/raids all see the results from the changes you will know what really needs to be done with the new changes.

Tyberi

04-08-2008, 01:53 PM

No freliant. I said exactly what I meant, but good try at twisting that around to your own purposes.

LygerT

04-08-2008, 02:33 PM

Tyberion, you're just being a whiner plain and simple. it is important to keep people playing and GUs every few months will hurt the player base. look at my sig, i can only hit VP mobs ~50% of the time and even less in defensive all while taking more damage than a guardian, so sit back and wait like everyone else for your fixes.

Tyberi

04-08-2008, 04:39 PM

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tyberion, you're just being a whiner plain and simple. it is important to keep people playing and GUs every few months will hurt the player base. look at my sig, i can only hit VP mobs ~50% of the time and even less in defensive all while taking more damage than a guardian, so sit back and wait like everyone else for your fixes. </blockquote>Either you have no dirge or you're lying about the hit rate. The only way for you to have a dirge and not be lying is if you are not counting CAs hit rates, not receiving the warden's skill buff and staying in defensive stance for the entire zone and that is if you're the MT. Our zerker has about a 70-80% hit rate depending on if you want to include CA hit rates or not. The only way you are taking much more damage than a guardian is if you are talking about just the damage they are absorbing with ToS and SS and disregarding the damage reduction from adrenaline. Or your gear is horrible compared to his gear.As for whining.... Yeah if asking for everything to work properly before it leaves the test server is whining then I guess I am guilty. But atleast I am one who is working out what is wrong and not one like you and freliant who just go around sayin don't whine, everything is fine, or blow what others say out of proportion and say people are asking for there to only be a few LUs a year when they ask for a delay.

Gisallo

04-08-2008, 09:43 PM

First maybe I am wrong but I think some people are over blowing that anyone is saying the ENTIRE LU should not have been released but rather the Ranger specific portions. I think this is partially true.The main issue I have is that the changes will be "gradual" according to Aeralik and this is now a mess. Yes one can argue that over all ranger damage has been increased (I think the numbers prove other wise due to decreased hit %'s etc, vs modest increases in some CA damage which is based largely on tweaking the cast and recharge rates but that neither here nor there)WHat has happened though is that even if you take the "your damage has gone up" at the word of a dev, who previously said at best the class would see "lateral shifts", these improvements only apply to rangers lvl above level 70. Those below 70 do not only have to contend with the hit rates being dropped, but also their Auto attack damage being nerfed by the arrow mechanic change. Basically 69 lvls worth of game play has been nerfed. Who in their right mind will want to play a character when you are told "hey its get better in 70 lvls"?Now we have been told the changes are to be gradual and that eventually all of this will be worked out when it is seen how things work. Ummm isn't that the point of the test server? I think its far more logical for Rangers to be on a roller coaster on test and that when they are fixed they are fixed once. Not get a change or 2 and then have to take the word of someone who has disparaged the class for the last year that everything else will come with time.As for people saying that this is not a Ranger fix LU, look at the patch notes which class is most effected by the changes.Lastly people wonder by what right Rangers say they should be doing more damage. The answer to that is "SOE said so". When the whole Predator class was introduced Rangers were supposed to be genuinely duaeling with just a couple of others for top of the parse because all they do is dps. Now we have 1 whole raid utility item which lasts for a whopping 30 secs and the Hawk won't break stealth but that really helps when it won't hit a darn thing beyond a yellow no up mob isn't it? And yet arguably at best, even above 70, status quo has been maintained and below 70 the class has been nerfed period.

voxranger

04-09-2008, 10:16 AM

Gungo stated the issue exactly.Rangers want more dps, Aeralik thinks our dps poetential is fine. Notice I used the word "potential".Rangers are being redesinged to be less dependent on auto attack related damage, and more balanced toward both melee and ranged ca's. I suspect, the Aeralik would argue that those raiding rangers who have optimizing the sweet spot already will continue to to remain high on the parse, while those who are laying back relying mostly on auto attack raleted damage are going to have to adjust thier play-sytles to get their numbers up.Really, you have to admit that Aeralik used the arrow fix as an opportunity to address some deeply significant issues across both pve and pvp dimensions of the game. We rangers have complained about arrow mechanics - arrow mechanics have been fixed. We rangers have complained about the cost of arrows and poisons as a minumum condition for dps - we are not less reliant on arrows and poisons for damage.We rangers have complained about a lack of group utility - we now have a group utility (allthough I agree, it's probably not going to be all that highly demanded.)Some rangers have complained about weak melee arts - these are bing improved.Also, look at the number one complaint from other classes about rangers in both pve and pvp: Rangers are op due to auto attack related damage.It seems to me, what Aeralik has done is simply reset the table so that he can nudge rangers in the direction he wants and do so in a way that allows him to better make a series of small tweaks and adjustments with options in many different areas - which will also help to avoid enflaming the active army of "scouts are op - you hate my class" crowd.So, we want better dps, Aeralik thinks our dps potential is fine. He will wait to see how the changes work out, gather his data, and nudge us one way or another. I supspect he will also use hypo's as well as player data from those players who are making the adjustments and playing the class in way that supports better use of the new changes.Personally, I'm not sure rangers are whey they need to be dps wise, but then again, I will wait a few months to get myself readjusted and see what feedback and suggestions come back.

Anekuh

04-09-2008, 12:41 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>The mythical is working.Extension has no change from live to test.The arrow accuracy has been addressed as part of the overall global melee/ranged accuracy increase.Rangers are doing more overall dps on test with unbroken arrows then live with broken arrows.whats the issue again?Really they have been addressing the concerns most rangers are not testing these changes and are board camping. At least I Rarely ever see a ranger on test. The few i have seen on test have posted thier results on this baord. And what does everyone of those parsing saay now? That they see an overall gain in dps from live to test. What rangers keep trying to say is they want more dps. (hitrates, betterbows, more procs, etc)What aerilik is saying is you do enough dps already.I don't know what other clarification you need.</blockquote>The issue I have is that the majority of these tests are done by high-end rangers. I do not dispute the changes at the high-end spectrum, but I do dispute the lower end. Now, the lower end has seen some changes (like Fabled ET getting a small boost) and I am happy. However, I cannot make a judgement until I start parsing and see how the results (raidwide) turn out. I do suspsect that these changes will give lower end rangers better dps raidwide.As for arrow costs, I am still very displeased. Again, we are the only class that must pays for their dps. Mages don't, fighters don't, and most of the scout classes don't. Rangers heavily depend on their ranged attacks and must pay a heavy price for arrows. This is wrong and should be looked at.

Dirty Jack Rackham

04-09-2008, 02:08 PM

<cite>Anekuh wrote:</cite><blockquote><snip>As for arrow costs, I am still very displeased. Again, we are the only class that must pays for their dps. Mages don't, fighters don't, and most of the scout classes don't. Rangers heavily depend on their ranged attacks and must pay a heavy price for arrows. This is wrong and should be looked at.</blockquote>Anekuh, before you get flamed into next week for that statement, all scouts do, in fact, pay for their damage to greater or lesser extent. Rangers, Assassins, Brigands, and Swashbucklers pay for poisons. Many classes pay for ammo (including all scouts). Rangers just pay a (hefty) premium above and beyond due to the amount of ammo (arrows) we burn through because of the ranged nature of our class.

Anekuh

04-09-2008, 03:47 PM

<cite>Dirty Jack Rackham wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Anekuh wrote:</cite><blockquote><snip>As for arrow costs, I am still very displeased. Again, we are the only class that must pays for their dps. Mages don't, fighters don't, and most of the scout classes don't. Rangers heavily depend on their ranged attacks and must pay a heavy price for arrows. This is wrong and should be looked at.</blockquote>Anekuh, before you get flamed into next week for that statement, all scouts do, in fact, pay for their damage to greater or lesser extent. Rangers, Assassins, Brigands, and Swashbucklers pay for poisons. Many classes pay for ammo (including all scouts). Rangers just pay a (hefty) premium above and beyond due to the amount of ammo (arrows) we burn through because of the ranged nature of our class.</blockquote>I'm glad you made that statement. Rangers DO pay a (hefty) price in comparison to the rest. Having to purchase a boat load of arrows every raid is stupid. With that said, I'm sure you would not complain if they manage to fix this.

Tyberi

04-09-2008, 07:00 PM

voxranger don't forget about the hidden handicap on ranged weapons to receive less benefit from Strength mod, DPS mod, Crit % and DA % that went in when the arrow damage mod was increase, arrow accuracy mod was decreased and arrow level value was increased/fixed.Thread discussing and showing the math for that can be found: <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?&topic_id=414036" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Here.</a>

Gisallo

04-09-2008, 09:36 PM

Vox you sorta contradict yourself. I agree with all of the complaints that have been made in the past that you note. But you miss the underlying issue why say arrow mechanics needed to be fixed. The reaons was a cals SOE said should be battling for top of the parse is battling to get 4th and 5th on the parse. The point behind the fix was to get the damage UP to where it should be. Instead he nerfs auto attack for 70 levels, does NOT increase the CA's enough to compensate and even when the auto attack gets back to where is should be post 70, the status quo is maintained.All of the data that has been poseted shows that Rangers, an almost pure dps class, regularly do less dps than even the more "rounded" classes and yet somehow the damage potential is fine? Potential with what? That is never clarrified, numbers to back up that supposition are never produced. Its bad enough to be asked to rely on someone's word when the person asking that is conflicting completely with emperical data, its insane to do sao when this same person has openly and blatantly attacked and threatened a class with nerfs when confroted with complaints.As for utility do you REALLY think what was given adds utility? What the did was akin to takin a Yugo, putting a lift kit on it and then saying the made an off road vehicle. I would have been less angry if they did NOTHING to tell you the truth. I mostly solo and game with a guild that only occassionally raids. I am one of the more active members so I usually get a slot regardless. What has me disturbed is that I KNOW I won't see many more rangers because no one is going to want to spend 69 lvls in the purgatory that the class has now become because of changes that SOE admits are incomplete because they are allegedly part of a gradual process.

Skwor

04-10-2008, 01:33 AM

I have personally seen this change on the live server upgrade the ranger DPS by almost 1000, how can you keep whining about your class? The rangers over the last 2 days easly lock the top spot on the parse, if you arn't you need to look at your playstyle again. remember as a ranger you always stay at full range and do DPS, even cloth DPS has to get into melee range (5 meters) to max thier DPS. A handicap a ranger never has to deal with.

Bre

04-10-2008, 02:13 AM

Skwor, did I miss something, are you being sarcastic? While it is true that Rangers, just as the cloth wearers you mentioned, can DPS at range. Doing so, just as the cloth wearers, hampers the damage potential of the dps class in question. It has been that way for quite a long time now. You really don't think we can do our job effectively at full range do you?I must have missed something.Nevermind, I went back and read some of your posts and you really do believe we stay at 35 meters. Uhhh yeah..Here's how it really is btw. For rangers to meet optimal dps we have to use our melee ca's and our ranged ca's. We do this by staying in the sweet spot, 5 meters from the mob, while not interrupting our auto attack. Our mythical even requires us to be at 5m or less to get a damage boost. So if you do indeed have a ranger in your group or raid that wants to stay at 35 meters you would do them a favor in pointing out to them the mistake they are making. Goran - 80 Ranger, Unrest

Skwor

04-10-2008, 08:44 AM

Currently mid range raiding T8 and yes I do believe. The rangers I have in mind are now doing 4k and they do not move from full range and on every fight (and yes they are very good players). I am currently researching what the top end is doing but I don't see why they wouldn't be smoking that easily. SO if a mid tier can do 4k staying always at range just what could a ranger do in the "sweet spot?" These numbers sure seem a bit high to me. All I see on the thread is the class complaining they still don't have enough yet.

docpaulp

04-10-2008, 09:33 AM

<cite>Skwor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Currently mid range raiding T8 and yes I do believe. The rangers I have in mind are now doing 4k and they do not move from full range and on every fight (and yes they are very good players). I am currently researching what the top end is doing but I don't see why they wouldn't be smoking that easily. SO if a mid tier can do 4k staying always at range just what could a ranger do in the "sweet spot?" These numbers sure seem a bit high to me. All I see on the thread is the class complaining they still don't have enough yet.</blockquote>You throw around the "4 k" number with no comparison. How much are your other dps classes parsing? I can show you a 12 k parse from an assassin on the [Removed for Content] sentries in Kor'sha. Either put your numbers into a relative field or don't post them.

voxranger

04-10-2008, 10:35 AM

<cite>Tyberion@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>voxranger don't forget about the hidden handicap on ranged weapons to receive less benefit from Strength mod, DPS mod, Crit % and DA % that went in when the arrow damage mod was increase, arrow accuracy mod was decreased and arrow level value was increased/fixed.Thread discussing and showing the math for that can be found: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?&topic_id=414036" target="_blank">Here.</a></blockquote>Yep. In fact, got my first full taste of the effects last night running instances for first time after the update. Yesterday was my first day to test changes for myself, and for what ever reason, the lag was horrible, and I'm not sure if it was the lag or the fix, but my over-all dps was down significantly. I imagine it has a lot to do with what your saying along with changes to hit rate related damage with some of the lag issues thrown in. I have always been fairly active working from the sweet spot, so I am not sure why I saw such a dramatic drop. At this point, I'll be working on adjusting my play style to get my dps back to where it was. Hoepfully i can figure this out soon.

voxranger

04-10-2008, 11:12 AM

<cite>Valkenberg@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Vox you sorta contradict yourself. I agree with all of the complaints that have been made in the past that you note. But you miss the underlying issue why say arrow mechanics needed to be fixed. The reaons was a cals SOE said should be battling for top of the parse is battling to get 4th and 5th on the parse. The point behind the fix was to get the damage UP to where it should be. Instead he nerfs auto attack for 70 levels, does NOT increase the CA's enough to compensate and even when the auto attack gets back to where is should be post 70, the status quo is maintained.All of the data that has been poseted shows that Rangers, an almost pure dps class, regularly do less dps than even the more "rounded" classes and yet somehow the damage potential is fine? Potential with what? That is never clarrified, numbers to back up that supposition are never produced. Its bad enough to be asked to rely on someone's word when the person asking that is conflicting completely with emperical data, its insane to do sao when this same person has openly and blatantly attacked and threatened a class with nerfs when confroted with complaints.As for utility do you REALLY think what was given adds utility? What the did was akin to takin a Yugo, putting a lift kit on it and then saying the made an off road vehicle. I would have been less angry if they did NOTHING to tell you the truth. I mostly solo and game with a guild that only occassionally raids. I am one of the more active members so I usually get a slot regardless. What has me disturbed is that I KNOW I won't see many more rangers because no one is going to want to spend 69 lvls in the purgatory that the class has now become because of changes that SOE admits are incomplete because they are allegedly part of a gradual process. </blockquote>Hey Valk, sorry for not being clearer. Actually the reason that rangers (myself included) wanted the arrow fix was to elevate our dps to where we have been accustomed to having it relative to other classes. The reason Aeralik wanted the arrow fix was to address what he perceived to be deeper design issues. Some rangers wanted the fix because the previous mechanics were, to be quite frank, just plain silly.I do not believe our dps was where it should have been in T8 and I've voiced this opinion many, many times. Aeralik has stated we are not "far off from where should be". Now, what I have interpreted that to mean is that Aeralik envisions ther ranger class as being more dependent on ca's (including melee) and far less dependent of auto attack related damage for dps. Based on this, I can only hypothesize that Aeralik is using test data that reflects a playstyle indictive of those rangers who are both active and skilled in working within the sweet spot.I raised the issues about the complaints Aeralik addressed only to show that he did, technically address them, and I made it clear I was with holding judgement about them until we had more data about the effects of the changes to analyze and digest.The other point I was trying to make is that like or not, this is a business, and not only does Aeralik have to contend with our concerns, but he also needs to contend the with the concerns of the other paying customers. Lets face it, how many times have you heard, "Man, wish all i had to do was hit autoattack and sit back and enjoy a sandwhich while the rest of us work the mob", or "Im sick and tired of scouts 2 shoting me with one CA and auto attack - it's not fair!" I can almost feel Aeralik cringe every time he contemplates making changes, either from the effects on rangers, or from the drama they will likely stimulate from other players. So, he simply set it up so he can nudge us in the direction he wants and left himself a lot of non-dramatic options to do so. My only bottom-line point was this: the reality is many of us are going to have to asjust our playstyles, give ourselves time to make the adjustments, and see what the net benifets on the parse actually are.Now, folks like Tyberion have correctly pointed out that many the mechanics effecting our ranged dps are hidden, or don't scale equally with melee bonuses. This i agree is not right. I will work improving my playstyle within the design Aeralik has developed. If my dps is not where I believe it should be, and I believe that it is being overly supressed by factors other than my skills and willingness to aquire the gear I need to make it work, then I will be right here with others calling for changes. I agree Rangers are a T1 dps class, I enjoy the scouting playstyle, and I enjoy being a ranged player. If I do all I can to improve, and the results of my parse still overy-suck, then I'm going be right here with others jumping up and down about it. Time will tell....

Kaharthemad

04-10-2008, 12:08 PM

Aparently the Dev working on this mess does not read the AA lines. If he did read he would see that extension Covers ALL Ranged attacks. Not just what Aerlick thinks it should cover. Here is a suggestion. Go over to SWG and Dev there. Atleast when you botch a patch as bad as you did here no one will notice.

LygerT

04-10-2008, 03:00 PM

<cite>Tyberion@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Tyberion, you're just being a whiner plain and simple. it is important to keep people playing and GUs every few months will hurt the player base. look at my sig, i can only hit VP mobs ~50% of the time and even less in defensive all while taking more damage than a guardian, so sit back and wait like everyone else for your fixes. </blockquote>Either you have no dirge or you're lying about the hit rate. The only way for you to have a dirge and not be lying is if you are not counting CAs hit rates, not receiving the warden's skill buff and staying in defensive stance for the entire zone and that is if you're the MT. Our zerker has about a 70-80% hit rate depending on if you want to include CA hit rates or not. The only way you are taking much more damage than a guardian is if you are talking about just the damage they are absorbing with ToS and SS and disregarding the damage reduction from adrenaline. Or your gear is horrible compared to his gear.As for whining.... Yeah if asking for everything to work properly before it leaves the test server is whining then I guess I am guilty. But atleast I am one who is working out what is wrong and not one like you and freliant who just go around sayin don't whine, everything is fine, or blow what others say out of proportion and say people are asking for there to only be a few LUs a year when they ask for a delay.</blockquote>i'm referring to AA since it does 60% of our base damage. sometimes i have a dirge, not all of us offtanks have a dirge full time, nor do we always have a warden. AA has gone as low as 38% in defensive, for taking more damage than a guard, well i thought that was common knowledge, we do take hits better while adrenaline is up but for 10 seconds out of 1:44 recast and if regen is slack then we run out of power very quickly using it.