SK weapon delays

[Domino]

Hey guys!  I'm looking at improving the mastercrafted weapons a bit and I just wanted to check with you guys, what kind of delays to shadow knights like on 1H weapons?  I believe 3s is a pretty popular delay for fighter types and I'm planning to make that available, but would you want a longer delay option too?  If so is there one particular number that would be preferable - 4s? 5s?  Or doesn't really matter that much?

[Latpow]

<p>Since most of our aggro generation is through spells, the longer (provided a big max hit) the better.  Many SKs prefer the Nathsar Greatsword with the 5 second delay for that reason.  Since Warrior types depend a lot on melee damage 3 - 4 seconds is good for them since they don't get huge gaps were they're not doing any damage.  For us it's more about getting bigger hits inbetween our casts... so 5 seconds would be ideal imo.  It'd also be nice for those weapons to have Strength AND Int too.   There's a lvl 72 MC weapon that's pretty good, but there's no lower level versions of it.  Don't know the name off-hand, but it's a Tomahawk.  Something like that for lower levels would be great!  </p>

[Latpow]

Sorry to bring this up here, but since you're looking at new MC weapon possibilities... isn't it time to make MC caster weapons have a spell triggered proc as opposed to a melee triggered one?  I've always wondered why it was like that.  Just a thought <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Harvash]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey guys!  I'm looking at improving the mastercrafted weapons a bit and I just wanted to check with you guys, what kind of delays to shadow knights like on 1H weapons?  I believe 3s is a pretty popular delay for fighter types and I'm planning to make that available, but would you want a longer delay option too?  If so is there one particular number that would be preferable - 4s? 5s?  Or doesn't really matter that much?</blockquote><p>I know that your question is very specific, but I think it is out of context a little bit.  The reason SK's (and pally's) use long delay is for a number of reasons - we can't dual wield, we have longish cast times, to name a few.  A 1h weapon just doesnt cut it except in extreme circumstances where a shield is necessary, or desired by the player.</p><p>When the system changed to make all the MC weapons "vanilla flavored" I would think almost every class could make a case for how it affected them.  I realize that some of the old types were a bit confusing and certainly didnt seem to match stats very well for the intended user.</p><p>Looking at MC weapons from a class perspective may help to understand the needs and is exactly what I feel you are searching for with your question, that is good news for all of us.</p><p>So, the short answer to your question is - more delay is better, but does have considerations for what your doing.  I currently am still swinging my Ghostly Axe of Blyze (sp?) from the claymore rewards, as a treasured weapon its huge delay and nice damage spread are un matched by anything else of its caliber - I only wish the stats were a little higher.  If I am soloing, its quite un-nerving to wait quite so long for the swing, but its great in a duo for sure and is tankable if the instance doesnt require a shield.</p><p>The long answer can be gleaned, I hope, from my above input.  Delays in the 3-4 sec range for a solo weapon are probably ok, 6+ is really good for grouping as a DPS filler.  I would just like to see a mix of delays, stats and effects - if thats possible.  A two hander with a heal proc or defense  proc; or maybe a 1h with melee/spell procs would be good.  I am not saying to match adornments by the way, just looking at how the overall system could be much improved and create some solid reasons to buy the player made good.</p><p> Thank you for allowing me to respond and keep up the great work for the game.</p><p>G</p>

[Tyndaleon]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey guys!  I'm looking at improving the mastercrafted weapons a bit and I just wanted to check with you guys, what kind of delays to shadow knights like on 1H weapons?  I believe 3s is a pretty popular delay for fighter types and I'm planning to make that available, but would you want a longer delay option too?  If so is there one particular number that would be preferable - 4s? 5s?  Or doesn't really matter that much?</blockquote>Dom, just to toss this out there, while I can't speak for either SK's or Pally's (and sorry for the intrusion here, but haven't see you post in other fighter forums yet), don't assume all fighters or fighters in general prefer 3s delay weapons.  I play a zerker main, and in general 4s delay <u><i>minimum</i></u> weapons are what I prefer;  5 and 6 second options (still within the context of one-handers) as well would be grand.  7s+  should be isolated to two-handers IMO, but please definitely include 4-6 second one-hander options with STR/STA/AGI stats as well.

[Xaxtionlorex]

6+ delays with high dmg spreads and high top ends.

[sliderhouserules]

<cite>Latpow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry to bring this up here, but since you're looking at new MC weapon possibilities... isn't it time to make MC caster weapons have a spell triggered proc as opposed to a melee triggered one?  I've always wondered why it was like that.  Just a thought <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Domino has asked that <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?&topic_id=409681" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">this thread</a> be used for suggestions for effects on weapons. It is quite a few pages, as it was the first main thread Domino was watching for weapon feedback, but she has started other threads, and said that that first thread is where effect feedback should go. The suggestion you've made has already been made multiple times, but doesn't hurt to add your vote. And anything you have to add for things like +parry, +slash, or anything you see on RoK treasured items that would work well on MC weapons, make your suggestions there.

[BlackPhoenix9]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey guys!  I'm looking at improving the mastercrafted weapons a bit and I just wanted to check with you guys, what kind of delays to shadow knights like on 1H weapons?  I believe 3s is a pretty popular delay for fighter types and I'm planning to make that available, but would you want a longer delay option too?  If so is there one particular number that would be preferable - 4s? 5s?  Or doesn't really matter that much?</blockquote>From those 3 choices, then 5 secs. like many have said so far the bigger the delay the better(for crusaders that is, dont know how it works for a warrior)

[Norrsken]

<cite>DominoDev wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hey guys!  I'm looking at improving the mastercrafted weapons a bit and I just wanted to check with you guys, what kind of delays to shadow knights like on 1H weapons?  I believe 3s is a pretty popular delay for fighter types and I'm planning to make that available, but would you want a longer delay option too?  If so is there one particular number that would be preferable - 4s? 5s?  Or doesn't really matter that much?</blockquote>Also, another thing. If you put +damage to the weapons, there is this thing that has annoyed me to no end. the weapons with split damage bonus to spells and CAs get only half to both of what a pure + to one gives. That is a wrong idea since both wont ever apply to the same skill they BOTH need to be as high as the single + skill weapons to be fair.

[ganng]

<p>High delay is best 6+.</p><p>Toss us a few procs or +dammage that suite our play style while you are tinkering arround in there would ya'<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Bruener]

<p>Alright Domino, this is what is ideal for SK's....</p><p>Long delay, specifically around 6 seconds since our spells take more time to cast in between swings.  Also, a real nice spread, something with a very high top end and a low low end so that more times than not it is hitting hard and would still be in-line with damage ratings.</p><p>The biggest thing that needs to be looked at with weapons and gear for SK's as a whole is to take into account the multiple stats and bonuses SK's have to use.  Meaning that weapons designed with SK's in mind should have more stats and more bonuses than any other weapons out there.  Throw the point-value system for making items out the window because SK's do not get the same gain that pure melee classes get.  So when you make an item and it has +??str, +??agi, +??sta...you need to put an equal amount of int on there as the str because unlike the pure melee classes our DPS comes from both spells and melee, actually about 50/50.  The same is true with +melee crits...a nice item with +4 melee crit on it should also include +4 spell crit on it so that SK's get the same type of gain from it that the other classes would.  Same with +spell damage and +CA damage.</p><p>Finally....procs.  The procs that are proc'ing off of just CA's, or just melee attack, or even just spell attack really leave us at a disadvantage.  A perfect example are the new shields that are player crafted.  They proc something like a 90 pt damage for every CA that you use.  Well guess what...not even half of a SK's casts are CA's while warriors have all CA's.  So those warriors get a lot more from that shield than a SK ever will.  I don't know why they did it that way, but it is...and that is something that seriously needs to be fixed.</p><p>Overall, if you want to make items that truly benefit SK's as much as the other classes when you make them, you are really going to have to look outside of the box and from the angle of what SK's need to balance stat-wise and bonus-wise.</p>

[Pitt Hammerfi]

<p>6 seconds with STR and INT please</p><p>Would be nice if you could change the mythical to be the same</p><p>Oh while your at it can you take a look at our lvl 80 master "death touch" that barely scratches a green con mob and is on a 15 min timer ? It really is a slap in the face</p><p>Also, can you ask the guy whos in charge of class balance, how we get out dps'ed by guardians ? both using mythicals, both fighting the same orange cons- guard constanly gets 3k, sk gets 2.4k if lucky.</p>

[rabid.pooh]

<p>SK's require slower weapons as there casting time averages around 1.7 secs, where as most mele have a 1 sec cast/recovery time.  So for weapon timing a 6 second weapon works quite well.   Personally I won't use a weapon thats under 5 seconds, unless COB is up then I will swap to a 1.6 sec weapon and spam my quick cast spell/cas.</p><p> For abilities on the sword please balance between spell/ca damage if it's being added to the weapon, like in melodic incardine set.</p><p> And for the other mele tank classes, 4+ seconds is pretty much the desired speed,  My Guards DPS drops by about 200 - 300 dps when I swap in my epic due to the speed and damage spread of the weapon.</p>

[Noaani]

<cite>Latpow wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sorry to bring this up here, but since you're looking at new MC weapon possibilities... isn't it time to make MC caster weapons have a spell triggered proc as opposed to a melee triggered one?  I've always wondered why it was like that.  Just a thought <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>As an even <i>better</i> thought, instead of making procs off melee attacks or spells, make imbue procs work off of any successful attack.</p><p>This would benifit both crusaders and bards a huge amount, as well as be of a decient benifit to rangers and hybrid healers.</p><p>This, of course, is as per the list of proc triggers in <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=348049" target="_blank">this</a> post</p><p>Edit: seems that post no longer has the relivant info on it.</p>

[DMIstar]

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Alright Domino, this is what is ideal for SK's....</p><p>Long delay, specifically around 6 seconds since our spells take more time to cast in between swings.  Also, a real nice spread, something with a very high top end and a low low end so that more times than not it is hitting hard and would still be in-line with damage ratings.</p><p>The biggest thing that needs to be looked at with weapons and gear for SK's as a whole is to take into account the multiple stats and bonuses SK's have to use.  Meaning that weapons designed with SK's in mind should have more stats and more bonuses than any other weapons out there.  Throw the point-value system for making items out the window because SK's do not get the same gain that pure melee classes get.  So when you make an item and it has +??str, +??agi, +??sta...you need to put an equal amount of int on there as the str because unlike the pure melee classes our DPS comes from both spells and melee, actually about 50/50.  The same is true with +melee crits...a nice item with +4 melee crit on it should also include +4 spell crit on it so that SK's get the same type of gain from it that the other classes would.  Same with +spell damage and +CA damage.</p><p>Finally....procs.  The procs that are proc'ing off of just CA's, or just melee attack, or even just spell attack really leave us at a disadvantage.  A perfect example are the new shields that are player crafted.  They proc something like a 90 pt damage for every CA that you use.  Well guess what...not even half of a SK's casts are CA's while warriors have all CA's.  So those warriors get a lot more from that shield than a SK ever will.  I don't know why they did it that way, but it is...and that is something that seriously needs to be fixed.</p><p>Overall, if you want to make items that truly benefit SK's as much as the other classes when you make them, you are really going to have to look outside of the box and from the angle of what SK's need to balance stat-wise and bonus-wise.</p></blockquote>Completley agree. I don't See the reasonings in The INT stat being withheld on items dedicated to fighters... the INT only effects pallys and SK's In this colum and Pretty much helps level out our DPS. 800STR on a melee Fighter Ups their CA's and Weapons Equally.. Whereas to do the same for us its nearly 600str/700 int ... It would different if INT was just a DPS booster for us to show we are to do more damage, but it is not. As stated before we have no use for CA based procs at all.. thier Fine if the intended item is for both Types, but please Have it based off of both Spells and CA's.. If all Else Fails Put it as another melee proc...

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

5-6 seconds...big spread....high top end dammage....spell proc effect....high raw health...and + Block. Stats...Str/Int/Sta.

[Nole]

<p>Some thoughts. I've only had a brief time to play with this, but using a damage meter helps me figure out some stuff.</p><p>This was a very limited test: me doing writs in TT. (I'm 62.) Most of the stuff I pulled was AoE pulls, about 4 things on average. This also skews things as I'm sure single target would be different. I'll go back and play with that too. </p><p>I'm currently using a 2.3 speed sword. Actual delay is 1.7 normally and 1.4 with swift attack. (So that should come out to 1.5.) The damage meter tells me that my delay was 1.90. This implies I'm losing about 25% of my swings.</p><p>Slash made up 15% of my damage, and grim strike* 7%. My other attack-based procs were insignificant. (For the record, Tap Veins was the second-biggest source of damage at 15%. This wouldn't be the case not AoEing.)</p><p>Now the problem I see with with slower weapons is that while I'd lose less swing time, I'd lose grim strike procs, since that's a flat %. I suspect about 3second delay plus better timing of my abilities might be ideal. At 6 seconds, I'd lose more in Grim Strike proc damage than I could possibly gain in not cutting into my own swings. This is with a 78.7 rating fabled 2h. I suspect that with a wimpy 1h, Grim Strike might account for more damage than my actual swings.</p><p>* Grim strike is the proc from Depraved Aura (Self lifetap on swing proc.) I have Depraved Aura as my Master II, and 5 points in improving the proc rate to 13%. Your mileage may vary if you don't have this ability maxed out. Grim strike also made up 16% of incoming healing, vs. 25% for Reaver Mania, and 21% for voracious soul. Though, as I was at full health most of the time, these numbers may be skewed.</p>

[seamus]

<p>Domino, thank you for asking.</p><p>One issue that many classes have in this game is the fact that it seems the designers/developers do not know how to itemize. I appreciate your effort to understand the needs of Crusaders and look forward to the new/updated recipes. </p><p>I'm with the others, we'd appreciate weapons with 5 or possibly 6 second delays.</p>

[Latpow]

The slower your weapon, the higher your proc percentage is... so you don't lose out on that many Grim Strikes.  Yes, Grim Strike usually is the top damage source for lower lvl SKs... this is due to the fact that most weapons are 2.5 delay or lower with a small top end, thus you don't get much melee DPS.  If you use that L Fay reward Hammer with a 5.0 delay, the Claymore quest reward Hammer, or at 62 Kettleleaders Katana (awesome weapon for 60s) you'll see your melee DPS double, if not more, from the usual 2.5 MC weapons. 

[Nole]

<p>Grim strike is listed as a 13% proc chance. Given that most of my other procs are listed as being 1.8 times per minute, I assumed the ones that have a listed % are actually that % regardless of weapon speed.</p><p>I'm currently using a fabled drop from Courts of El'Afaz. I guess I could buy a Katana and see what that would do to my DPS, but given that I only seem to be delaying my swings 25-33% on average I just don't see how I could gain much more DPS. Granted, I was AoEing a lot, so... </p><p>What's the benefit of having a high top end? There seemed to be some obsession with that in WoW too, but there I know it does nothing in the long run.</p>

[Latpow]

While in game type "/weapon" and compare a few slow and fast weapons.  It lists an "actual" proc percentage, and you'll see the difference.  The obsession with the weapons "top end" is that it allows for bigger critical hits,  important for inital aggro... not to mention to get more bang for the buck from +DPS gear, buffs, and haste (as most top heavy weapons are slow).  You also miss less swings due to casting, so it adds up. 

[Nole]

<cite>Latpow wrote:</cite><blockquote>While in game type "/weapon" and compare a few slow and fast weapons.  It lists an "actual" proc percentage, and you'll see the difference.  The obsession with the weapons "top end" is that it allows for bigger critical hits,  important for inital aggro... not to mention to get more bang for the buck from +DPS gear, buffs, and haste (as most top heavy weapons are slow).  You also miss less swings due to casting, so it adds up.  </blockquote><p>But if the top end is higher, the bottom end is lower for the same rating and speed, no? Which could also mean less initial aggro, right? I mean a wider spread gives you a chance for a really awesome first crit or a really anemic first hit, wheras a narrower spread gives you reliable damage. Am I missing something here? (I'm currently not specced for melee crits, so hoping for that big melee weapon crit doesn't seem like a good idea. Maybe at 70 when I can get more AAs I might consider it, but the other lines are tempting in other ways.)</p><p>So far I haven't run into any weapon with a really long delay, so I can't test that. The Kettleleader's Katana is only 3.0. I also can't use /weapon to compare proc percentages. I have 5 or so things that can proc on attack (maybe 4 now), it only lists one. Heck, it would be nice to see some improvements to that in /weapon, because I'm not even sure which proc it's showing me (I assume the one built in to the weapon?).</p><p>I don't quite understand how a big top end gains more from +DPS (assuming rating is constant) except in that you might be missing fewer swings (assuming the big top end is due to slow speed instead of a huge spread).</p><p>All that being said, I'm starting to think this conversation should be in a different thread as it actually has little to do with the subject at hand. As a weaponsmith, I'm all for as many new recipes as possible even if I myself wouldn't touch them with a 10 foot pole.</p><p>Like I said, I'll have to do more extensive testing, but I'm just not sure that my melee damage is a significant enough portion of my overall damage for minor benefits to matter. (And this is with a fabled 2h.) Maybe this changes at higher level or with different AAs.</p>

[DMIstar]

There is A good point on here to be had, And was thinking on it Earlier... The reasoning why We want a higher Delay weapon at the higher tiers, is due to the haste obtained ... Right now most here are between 80-130 depending on raids in haste.. If the weapons are a low delay, all we will do is cap them out easily and pretty much renders most of our Attack speed useless.... That said.. Even though 5.0, 6.0 delays are being asked for, There is no SK in the top tier thats realy going to be useing that as a base delay.. The haste will easily bring this down between 3.0-4.0 range.. which is realy where we want to be.. Even though weapons are faster past 3.0 all your doing is Just delaying your next hit till after your spam of spells is going off.. your not actually useing the full weapons delay speed at all. Alot of our spells take time to get casted off. and some we realy want to get in, 2 or 3 at a shot. so haveing a 3 sec delay enables us to time it better. you Realy dont want to have a bunch of pauses in your spell casting for your weapon.. you want it more precise.. the more precise you are the more DPS you will get out..Now the Problem is, Once going to lower tiers the amount of haste that is available is alot less... So  new Toon with a 5.0delay weapon, is actually going to have a 5.0 delay to handle with.... which I think might actually be a bit daunting O o. I think the best choice when scaleing back these weapons, that the Delay scales back as well. to support the haste ratio for those tiers.

[Lord Hackenslash]

one thin that was mentione but i feel needs to be championed is the balancing of tank items to 4 stats str agi stam int. some mentioned earlier that str stam int is what we need but in losing the agi our overall avoidance drops and that is one of our deficiencies as a tank. there really is no imbalance by adding int as a 4th stat to a weapon whenever str is on that weapon and in like amounts. pure melee get a small increase to thier proc dmg and crusaders and bards merely get the same benefir to all thier abilitied not just one half or the other. melee and spell damage need to become mutually inclusive on items as part of the point build system.oh, slower the better. 4 - 6 second delay is best for a 1h <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I tend to use less spells when tanking anyhow (tanking=using 1h) because we get interrupted constantly causing our cast times to double.

[Incur]

<cite>Nole wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Latpow wrote:</cite><p>But if the top end is higher, the bottom end is lower for the same rating and speed, no? Which could also mean less initial aggro, right? I mean a wider spread gives you a chance for a really awesome first crit or a really anemic first hit, wheras a narrower spread gives you reliable damage. Am I missing something here?</p></blockquote>A crit does at minimum MAX damage of weapon +1 so with a huge top end and a tiny bottom end on a crit your going to get the max damage +1, making large spread weapons with a big top end very damaging even if your "damage" roll is low

[Nole]

<cite>Dorlant@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nole wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Latpow wrote:</cite><p>But if the top end is higher, the bottom end is lower for the same rating and speed, no? Which could also mean less initial aggro, right? I mean a wider spread gives you a chance for a really awesome first crit or a really anemic first hit, wheras a narrower spread gives you reliable damage. Am I missing something here?</p></blockquote>A crit does at minimum MAX damage of weapon +1 so with a huge top end and a tiny bottom end on a crit your going to get the max damage +1, making large spread weapons with a big top end very damaging even if your "damage" roll is low</blockquote>Yay, finally an explanation <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Domino]

Thanks all!  I think we'll be looking at 3s and 5s on one-handers and 6s on two handers.  And yes, a wider range of stat options too.  Input much appreciated!  Further updates will be forthcoming as appropriate in the tradeskill forum.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />