no subjugation buff???

[pebyr]

Today my guild tried nexona.  When the adds came, the illusionist had no trouble mezzing them, though one got away.  When i tried to grab it, i got resisted 3 times, until it got to the tank and well you can guess the rest.  One thing to note that while my mezzes are both t8 masters, the illusionists are adept3's.In trying to figure out what to do about this, the illusionist and i compared notes to try to figure out why i was getting resisted more.  That is when i found out about their buff that boosts their subjugation by a rather considerable amount.  Try as i might, i could not find anything similar in my spell list.Ok, why is it that the coercer who is rarely if ever in the mage group, with access to +subj buffs, unable to self buff for +subjugation, while the illusionist that is almost always in the mage group gets a self buff?  It would seem that since most mt groups rarely have toons that can buff for that, that coercers of all classes need a buff for subjugation and ordination.  I am not asking you to take away the illusionist buff, because frankly enchanters of all people should be able to buff for subjugation.So here I am forced to scramble for +subj gear, while sacrificing dps in the way of crit gear and spell proccing gear, and i will still be far short of what the illusionist gets with self buffs, troub buffs and other assorted bufffs.  No offense, but i find coruscation and signet of intellect to marginally useful at best.  I dont even see a reason to worry about getting them mastered.  Why not change one of them to boost subjugation and ordination, and make them useful.Heck, this makes it even more glaring that our fabled/mythical has no +subjugation.  Now I know that eventually my gear should overcome this deficiency, but it shouldn't have to.  I shouldn't be so far behind, because nobody thought about the lack of most coercer's access to a buff for +subjugation.And no i can't go down wisdom, because the mt healers like the +16% heal crits. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[XFnarX]

Illus get a 50% resist reduc as a quick cast spell with short duration and he probably was using this while getting them locked at first. Honestly it doesn't have to do with their Subj, they are just better built for mezzing.***EDIT***Oh and on Nex I just have the 2 Illus mezz. I don't bother even turning around. I am focusing on keeping the MT group maxed on power and dumping hate on the tank. This battle aside I have 2 entirely different sets of gear because we are so poorly stocked for mezzing. 1 is pure DPS and the other is Pure Subj. Solo with out the Wis line I have my Subj currently at 498. With Wis line I was well over the 520 cap. This helps beautifully with mezzing for instances and charm / stun solo-ing. I rec doing the same and lets Illus have to do the "work" on raids. =p lol

[Illine]

<p>plus the illu have an aa to improve mez.</p><p>Illus are better mezzer than us. Plus they are usually with a troub, maybe a warlock which increases greatly their subju. It's hard to compete ... but ou can stun better :p.</p><p>after that I remember the proc of the claymore gave +69 in subju so it can be usefull ...if it procs of course <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</p>

[pebyr]

wish i could ignore the mezzing, but there are only 2 enchanters in the raid, so i can't ignore it.  I'd go wisdom line, but it would require doing without heal crits, which are useful.  Damned if you do, and damned if you dont.  Oh yeah, they do get a temporary +subjgation buff.  And i asked and the illusionist is working toward the 50% resist reduction.  She doesn't have it yet, because even without it, she's in the top 4 of our dps.Flash of brilliance - level 78 illusionist spell Increases INT of group members (AE) by 179 Increases Focus, Disruption, Subjugation, Ministration and Ordination of group members (AE) by 66 Yeah they do seem better set up as mezzers.   Which again removes a little bit more of our utility.  I would just like to be the equal of them in usefulness.

[chily]

<cite>pebyr wrote:</cite><blockquote>wish i could ignore the mezzing, but there are only 2 enchanters in the raid, so i can't ignore it.  I'd go wisdom line, but it would require doing without heal crits, which are useful.  Damned if you do, and damned if you dont.  </blockquote><p>The heal crit's are that usefull somehow. i was specced for that a whole year in eof and switched the last 2 months to str and agi there. The healer's didn't even notice that really lol.In Rok i started with Agi, Int and str specc and swtiched for healcrit for a week, but the week after i didn't even had the time to swtich and the mobs died as fast as before hehe.Shamans gain nothing for wards from the heal crit. The only thing that goes really up from it are overloaded heals and they go up only a little.My tip is that you not specc for heal crit and don't tell anyone hehe <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[XFnarX]

<cite>Chillispike@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>pebyr wrote:</cite><blockquote>wish i could ignore the mezzing, but there are only 2 enchanters in the raid, so i can't ignore it.  I'd go wisdom line, but it would require doing without heal crits, which are useful.  Damned if you do, and damned if you dont.  </blockquote><p>The heal crit's are that usefull somehow. i was specced for that a whole year in eof and switched the last 2 months to str and agi there. The healer's didn't even notice that really lol.In Rok i started with Agi, Int and str specc and swtiched for healcrit for a week, but the week after i didn't even had the time to swtich and the mobs died as fast as before hehe.Shamans gain nothing for wards from the heal crit. The only thing that goes really up from it are overloaded heals and they go up only a little.My tip is that you not specc for heal crit and don't tell anyone hehe <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></p></blockquote>unfortunately my MT healers are kinda annul about their stats... I've already tried the silent change and got asked in tells by ALL 3 "You have your group heal crit on, my crits are off?"Sucks to be me. lol

[Jeepned2]

Believe it or not, there are some out there that will say that the heal crit buff isn't that big of a deal. Try telling that to MY MT healers. They know exactly if that buff is up or not, and are not embarrassed at all to let me know about it. For me also, going after the Subj AA increase is not an option unless I want to totally destroy what little dps abilities that I currently have. Me, I'm lucky though, we do have two Illusionist to handed Nex's adds. So the question is, which healing class watches my buffs the most? I vote for all of them : )

[Dravendar]

<p>There are some things that we as coercers will have to accept:</p><p>1.  Illies are superior mezzers in every respect.</p><p>2.  Illies dps is vastly superior.</p><p>3.  Illies utility/buffs are again, vastly superior and more coveted.</p><p>Our only slot in any competent, well staffed raiding guild would be the MT one and even then, if you don't show up that night, your raid won't miss you that much.  If you occupy any other slot, your guild is hurting for recruitment.  And on Nex fights, we are seriously handicapped for the job for reasons you already know.  There is nothing you can do to equalize your performance with an illy.  You will just have to find other means / techniques to get the job done.    </p>

[Nor]

Shaman wards can crit.  That being said, I have no idea if the coercer aa affects it or not.

[pebyr]

<cite>Dravendar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>There are some things that we as coercers will have to accept:</p><p>1.  Illies are superior mezzers in every respect.</p><p>2.  Illies dps is vastly superior.</p><p>3.  Illies utility/buffs are again, vastly superior and more coveted.</p><p>Our only slot in any competent, well staffed raiding guild would be the MT one and even then, if you don't show up that night, your raid won't miss you that much.  If you occupy any other slot, your guild is hurting for recruitment.  And on Nex fights, we are seriously handicapped for the job for reasons you already know.  There is nothing you can do to equalize your performance with an illy.  You will just have to find other means / techniques to get the job done.    </p></blockquote>Problem is that while this appears to be true, and that there is nothing we can do about it, it is not a good thing.  Theoretically the classes should be more equal.  This is something that only the dev's can fix.  Best we can do is try to give advice.  The only problem I have with the concept of them hating cc classes, is that illy's are a cc class too.  So wouldn't they be getting the shaft also?  Honestly, I think that though they are trying to make them equal, they are trying to do it in different ways, and so far are not having any success.If you are going to put mobs in an encounter that require crowd control, then it wouldn't make any sense to hate crowd control.  Also, given that, enchanters mez, everybody knows that from eq1, and eq2.  So when one person can't mez, 90% of the server population thinks that the attempted mezzer is either not doing their job, since no loud message says that so and so tried to mez and got resisted.  Generally what happens, is that they stop getting asked to be in situations where they might have to mez because they are perceived to suck at it.  This means of course that since illusionists have bonuses to their mezzes not getting resisted, this gives raid leaders yet one more reason to wonder why they need coercers.

[Nor]

<p>Group encounters and mezing is so out of whack in this game compared to EQ1 anyways, it's hard to tell what was going on from the development standpoint to begin with.  No doubt they either conciously decided to make it so cc was needed less, or it just turned out that way over the course of time.  </p><p>In solo, mezing might save you from an add.  In grouping, there really isn't a point to mez - stuff just dies way to quickly.  In raids, although I understand the concept of having immunities making things more of a challenge it causes some classes to become moot, redundant at best.  Raid mechanics in eq2 aren't as "flow-y" as in eq1 either.  No cheal rotations (a good thing?), a tough line for offtanks to keep aggro on the #2 spot if things go badly, etc.  I dunno, maybe the raids I've been on haven't been up to par, but from what I've seen, assist healing is as good as it gets, and heals get dumped on the wrong people all the time.  And, unless (even if) the offtank is spot on with taunting when a MT goes down, the chances of a whipe because of assist healing/retargeting hurts a clean kill of the mob.  It seems like the ability to use tactics in general, short of a zerg fest are lacking.  That being said...before I waylay the thread too far, mechanics of the game while they were attempted to be changed (for the better?) did just that...they changed, and sometimes with the changes the years of tweaking of classes and encounters to the first everquest were ignored and some things, like the cc class (read coercer) were just plain overlooked, forgotten, or plain not tested enough (the latter being where my vote is being cast...something that seems to happen quite a bit).  </p><p>Keep in mind, from it's infant stages, EQ2 was made to be a platform for PvP.  Opposing cities, with similar classes and spells based on players, not mobs.  Somewhere in the mix while attempting to perfect pvp they lost sight of the blue servers.  It's a tough job, making classes different but equal while maintaining balance in the world.  A job I don't envy.  Just the same, one would think that with three years of "testing" and numerous well thought out ideas from the player base, something would hit the test server where if things get unbalanced, it won't be as devastating to the community.  And quite frankly, if it does - who cares?  In another 6 months the cap goes up, an expansion goes live, new gear replaces old gear, and the money keeps rolling in for them.</p><p>And here is a question:  Just how many changes have been made to coercers, that drastically change their playing?  I'm not talking about changes that affect coercers, I mean direct changes - like the charm thing (that probably also affects necros, come to think of it - so not sure that even that one meets the requirements of changes to the coercer class).  Have they really <u>ever</u> done anything to the class?</p><p>Wait a second, this is a game, right?  Not real life?</p>