PALADINS AND RAIDS

[Antonia Bayle]

<p> Greetings,</p><p> This is my first active post since starting the game, I have play a Paladin for 4 years. Went thru the ups and downs of this Tank class.  </p><p> I dont want to get into the whos better to tank or what role each should play however there is a issue with this class and I would like to see something done to fix it.</p><p> The problem I am seeing is Mana issue and Taking a hit as well as keeping the agro. I will not claim to know all the issues with all classes but it has been stated that a Paladin has no role in a Raid especially tanking I think this is incorrect. I do see where some spells could be swapped such as group heals and perhaps replaced with a taunt.</p><p> I have been told SOE has always had a issue with balancing the classes, I do hope to see some active brainstomring on how to fix the Paladin class.</p><p>I am rather new at forums, never really had a issue till now, any guidance on the subject or perhaps a point in the right direction is appreciated.</p>

[interstellarmatter]

<p>Are you really Antonia Bayle?  That rocks.</p><p>Besides for that, might want to check your class forum and start a discussion there.  That tends to keep the conversation on paladins rather than drifting on which class can do what...</p>

[Antonia Bayle]

<p>I am the real deal <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />... I have looked over most Paladin posts in it gets into that finger pointing of who does this and that, I want to see action not just a chat on well this and that.  I spoke to a few of my contacts and indeed there is a issue with Mana for the Paladin. No matter how many potions, totems, gear or manastone used its a issue especially in raids.  </p><p>I have sent off a feedback and well to be honest I have never truly seen a result of such inputs, I hope to be heard and hope that other Paladins feel the same dedication that I do.</p><p> I dont want to see us pushed out of the Tank role, we do wear plate and I am by far not a templar so what does SOE want us to do, I would like to know?</p>

[Demoley]

<cite>Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am the real deal <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />... I have looked over most Paladin posts in it gets into that finger pointing of who does this and that, I want to see action not just a chat on well this and that.  I spoke to a few of my contacts and indeed there is a issue with Mana for the Paladin. No matter how many potions, totems, gear or manastone used its a issue especially in raids.  </p><p>I have sent off a feedback and well to be honest I have never truly seen a result of such inputs, I hope to be heard and hope that other Paladins feel the same dedication that I do.</p><p> I dont want to see us pushed out of the Tank role, we do wear plate and I am by far not a templar so what does SOE want us to do, I would like to know?</p></blockquote>lol power issues? lol i rarely go below 50% power in raids and thats smashing buttons, get a couple good power proc items and some good regen, your set.

[Tames]

<p>Yes we can tank raids, no a lot of people dont think we can, or find it convenient to say so to avoid us competing for tank positions on raids.</p><p>There is a very strong "stick to group tanking, its what you are designed for" attitude out there. Unless you grew up with your raiding guild, you have to break into the existing status quo.</p><p>I have been heavilly criticised over the value of our "Oh Sh*t" spells (LoH, DA, DF) in RoK for instance and ability to take spike damage in that context.</p><p>Heres something I wrote earlier:</p><p><i>There are several problems in getting a Raiding tank spot for a Pally. Paladins can tank just about anything, that doesn't mean you will be allowed to, or are the best option in all encounters. Paladins are very versatile and are probably IMOP the best Group tanks, we can make poorly balanced groups work. This versatility makes being a Paladin fun and challenging for me. Raid Tanking is a much narrower niche.</i></p><p><i>The cookie cutter solution for most raid leaders is Guardian MT, Berserker OT as far as I have seen and I am happy to be told that's different on other servers. These two tank classes have run successful "Pally's are [Removed for Content]" (evil is cool, good is weak) campaigns. There is a lot of competition for tank slots on raids and you don't normally see more than 3 tanks in a 24 person raid, often just 2.</i></p><p><i>People are used to Guardians and Berserkers, they are far more numerous for a start. They don't see what Pally's can do very often and in raids you may never be given the chance. I held agro on both the non mezzed Sisters in ME last night and my group was amazed, they were used to having an off tank to stop the second sister from offing the chanter on the mez, the player who had a Guardian alt thought it was an exploit.</i></p><p><i>When the raid is set up to support a Guardian MT its what they are used to so they stick with that when theres a vacancy. Its easier to find competent raiding Guardians.</i></p><p><i>Guardians find it easier to survive the top end mobs, Paladins can and do tank them but its harder. We are more likely to fit the OT slot.</i></p><p><i>I have made macros for all my buffs explaining what they do as no one thought I brought anything to the group/raid extra to standard tank stuff, apart from a capacity to patch heal.</i></p><p><i>Lack of Raid tanking experience (apart from DPS/healing role which isn't really tanking) means that when you are given a chance you may not do as well as the tanks they are used to and you may not get a second chance. ‘Family' raiding Guilds are far more forgiving and you see many Paladins in them, but they don't do the hardcore stuff. I am the only Paladin in my VP raiding Guild and am regarded as experimental, they didn't have one before me, I don't get on every raid by a long shot. </i></p><p><i>Of course if you don't raid and much as the Guards and Zerks, your gear isn't as good and this further compounds the issue.</i></p><p><i>I had hoped that people missing lots on Orange mobs might give me an edge with the Wis line AA but that's stuffed as increases in skills dont affect hit % in VP. Our "Oh Sh*t" DA and DF aren't any good either which hurts us as, the other tanks have buffs that work.</i></p>

[Windowlicker]

You have problems keeping aggro?If your a Pally and your having problems keeping aggro, I'd say tanking a raid is the least of your worries.

[Antonia Bayle]

 I havent had a issue with keeping agro in any situation. Can anyone recemmend good regen gear to equip, perhpas I also need to look closer at my specs.  Demoley you seem to be on the level with the name <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> what gear (regen) do you have?

[Udon]

<p>IMHO the the issue is that the Developers wanted Paladins to use wards and heals to make up for the difference in mitigation between us and our Warrior counterparts.  They don't even come close on raids.  Solo or small group I think we are just as good at tanking but on a raid those wards/heals just don't scale to accommodate the higher damage rates main tanks are taking while mitigation buffs do.  The problem is SOE is kind of stuck at this point as I don't see any easy way to brings us up to par with Warriors without either overpowering us when solo/small group, or completely revamping us into Warrior clones which I don't think anyone wants.</p><p>As for agro control; You can't build a main tank group around a paladin the same way you build one around a warrior.  The toon you put amends on should be in the top three of the parse consistently and an AOE class such as a warlock is even better. </p>

[Arno24]

<p>Our power is fine, if you run out of power, you or your raid sucks.We tank fine.If you loose aggro as a paladin, you should just reroll a healer or a bard class.</p><p>Edit: To be nice.</p><p>Get a power proc adorn for weapon and see my post here for power problems:</p><p><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/paladins/11835-clicky-items.html" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.eq2flames.com/paladins/1...icky-items.html</a></p>

[Meirril]

<p>In a raid, power isn't going to be a main concern. There will be someone in your group that will provide power.</p><p>If your tanking, the group should be configured to make up for your weaknesses and bring out your strengths. Thing is, most raid MT set ups are made for guardians and bezerkers. Paladins need a slightly different set up that puts us in a group with whoever is going to hit the top of the parce. Perferably another melee class that can stay within amends range (10m). One thing we don't need is a full group of people with their own hate transfer abilities. Pairing up an assassin with a paladin tank seems like a fairly good combination for single target encounters. If you actually expect to be facing multi-mob encounters then a warlock is a natural choice. Raid or grouping, a good warlock is a paladin's best friend.</p><p>Most of your concerns seem to be group-oriented concerns. Try to make sure you include either a bard or enchanter in your groups to generate power. Figure out who generates the most agro in your group and apply amends. Ask the rest of the DPS to watch themselves if it is an issue after that, it probably shouldn't be. Generally, if I have a bard around I can use all of my spells/CAs to maximum potential and ignore taunts after the pull keeping agro with 4 very diverse DPS classes in my group. Again, this is group tactics.</p>

[Fatuus]

<cite>Tamesan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Yes we can tank raids, no a lot of people dont think we can, or find it convenient to say so to avoid us competing for tank positions on raids.</p><p>There is a very strong "stick to group tanking, its what you are designed for" attitude out there. Unless you grew up with your raiding guild, you have to break into the existing status quo.</p><p>I have been heavilly criticised over the value of our "Oh Sh*t" spells (LoH, DA, DF) in RoK for instance and ability to take spike damage in that context.</p><p>Heres something I wrote earlier:</p><p><i>There are several problems in getting a Raiding tank spot for a Pally. Paladins can tank just about anything, that doesn't mean you will be allowed to, or are the best option in all encounters. Paladins are very versatile and are probably IMOP the best Group tanks, we can make poorly balanced groups work. This versatility makes being a Paladin fun and challenging for me. Raid Tanking is a much narrower niche.</i></p><p><i>The cookie cutter solution for most raid leaders is Guardian MT, Berserker OT as far as I have seen and I am happy to be told that's different on other servers. These two tank classes have run successful "Pally's are [Removed for Content]" (evil is cool, good is weak) campaigns. There is a lot of competition for tank slots on raids and you don't normally see more than 3 tanks in a 24 person raid, often just 2.</i></p><p><i>People are used to Guardians and Berserkers, they are far more numerous for a start. They don't see what Pally's can do very often and in raids you may never be given the chance. I held agro on both the non mezzed Sisters in ME last night and my group was amazed, they were used to having an off tank to stop the second sister from offing the chanter on the mez, the player who had a Guardian alt thought it was an exploit.</i></p><p><i>When the raid is set up to support a Guardian MT its what they are used to so they stick with that when theres a vacancy. Its easier to find competent raiding Guardians.</i></p><p><i>Guardians find it easier to survive the top end mobs, Paladins can and do tank them but its harder. We are more likely to fit the OT slot.</i></p><p><i>I have made macros for all my buffs explaining what they do as no one thought I brought anything to the group/raid extra to standard tank stuff, apart from a capacity to patch heal.</i></p><p><i>Lack of Raid tanking experience (apart from DPS/healing role which isn't really tanking) means that when you are given a chance you may not do as well as the tanks they are used to and you may not get a second chance. ‘Family' raiding Guilds are far more forgiving and you see many Paladins in them, but they don't do the hardcore stuff. I am the only Paladin in my VP raiding Guild and am regarded as experimental, they didn't have one before me, I don't get on every raid by a long shot. </i></p><p><i>Of course if you don't raid and much as the Guards and Zerks, your gear isn't as good and this further compounds the issue.</i></p><p><i>I had hoped that people missing lots on Orange mobs might give me an edge with the Wis line AA but that's stuffed as increases in skills dont affect hit % in VP. Our "Oh Sh*t" DA and DF aren't any good either which hurts us as, the other tanks have buffs that work.</i></p></blockquote><p>Tanking RoK content, Avoidance is king. A guardian can pretty easily get to 75% avoidance if they have descent raid gear. I say this because some "avoidance" sacrifices need to be made to have a paladin effectively tank. The best avoidance I have seen a paladin get to is 65% as a MT. This difference is huge when fighting Orange con mobs that can double-attack for 17k hitpoints. The comparison does not also take into account that a guardian will generally have more mitigation then a paladin AND that the guardians mythical OWNS the paladin one for survivability purposes. </p><p>Paladins definitely have their uses on raids, but they are best IMO for tanking multimob situations (3 or more). Most of the raid mobs in RoK (save for 1 T1 encounter) are only 1 epic mob in size. On single mob engangements a Guardian beats a paladin. Guardians have much better snap aggro then a Paladin...very noticable when fighting RoK content. If geared and speced well, a guardian can have reinforcement recast every 30 seconds on its on 1/3 of the fight which in itself is pretty insane. They can aa spec for reduced rescue recast timers...and have other snap aggro abilities which are pretty insane. </p><p>Lastly Guardians are not hindered by hate transfer issues that paladins have. Paladins can turn out some nice DPS versus multimob situations, but against high dps single target fights they have issue. I have seen single target epic mob parses by guardians in the 3 to 4k range...I am sure they can go higher. Guards gain hate by being hit. </p><p>The best single target hate gain for a tank is probably Guardian, defiler, templar, coercer, Dirge, Swashbuckler. Thats almost 50% hate gain, 40 to 45 percent hate transfer (from coercer and swash). That group setup should also hit around 11 to 13k dps at least as well with the guard doing 3k+ dps (equaling about 5k dps in hate gain +hate gained from taunts and being hit), swash doing 6k dps (tank gets 1.2k dps hate gain), coercer doing 2.5k dps at least (about 400 dps hate gain) and dirge doing 1.5k dps. The tank in just DPS hate gain should have around almost 7k before taunts are factored in. Do the math on this. If an assassin was in the MT group with a paladin on single target mobs (and was [Removed for Content] out) they could probably hit 6 to 7kdps transfered via amends to the paladin. at 41% hate gain that isa transfer of about 2.5k dps hate gain. A paladin then does an amazing 2k dps...that is a total dps hate gain of 4.5k on a single target mob. You could use a wizard...but in any case the numbers would be pretty much the same. Now you could throw another dpser in that group for additional hate gain from sigel...but thats only 20 seconds out of every 2.2 minutes (less if you went the STR line). 36% of short burst dps mounts to very little added gain.</p><p>They should have a LONG time ago (especially with the avoidance changes) given paladins parry to their base defensive stance. This makes a huge difference for avoidance AND repost damage. That is just one of the ways a guardian is able to own a paladin on single target fights while tanking.</p>

[Demoley]

78% avoid with 19k hp raid buffed in mt roll <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> youve now seen higher

[Arno24]

<cite>Virutis@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>78% avoid with 19k hp raid buffed in mt roll <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> youve now seen higher</blockquote><p>Only 19k HP? <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Slacker</p><p>But how do you have such higher avoidence?</p>

[Demoley]

trak shield and other various items <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[JFanta]

how much % block we have with trak shield?

[Demoley]

40%, 45% if i use SoD.

[JFanta]

with the crusader set bp?

[Boethius_Permafrost]

I've never been on a T8 raid, and I beat his hypothetical raid paladin's avoidance.  Solo.(And I still need drusilla's shoulders, dangit)

[Demoley]

no, i still use hate bp.

[Demoley]

<cite>Enrico@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>I've never been on a T8 raid, and I beat his hypothetical raid paladin's avoidance.  Solo.(And I still need drusilla's shoulders, dangit)</blockquote>i could go higher also, get drusilla's shoulders which i still dont have either, put on pelt of zith from PHH...prolly a few other things i have stuffed in the bank.

[Tames]

<p>Hmm, ok the very top, longest playing Pals in top Guilds can work up to levels similiar to Guardians. How easy is it for Guardians to reach those levels compared to Paladins?</p><p>If a guild is looking for a new tank is it much faster to get a tank up to VP standard if they are a Guardian or Zerk?</p><p>TBH I see much more upper level Guard/Zerk gear dropping in raids than Cruasader stuff, but maybe I am unlucky?</p><p>Basically it seems that they gave Pals utility in the beginning to balance the other tanks intrinsic better ability to be hit and survive, but didnt scale it up with the expansions. Certainly our healing ability and borked "Oh Sh*t" spells arent compensation if you are looking at raid tanking. If they scale up our utility properly to help raid level encounters  then we will unbalance group content, so they really need to stick to the purely tank stuff, resistance, mit and avoidance.</p>

[motogp]

<cite>Virutis@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>40%, 45% if i use SoD.</blockquote>When all is said and done SOD is better than the Paladin Mythical.  Thanx for proving my Point. Math dont Lie.  Have a nice day

[Demoley]

<cite>motogpgp wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Virutis@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>40%, 45% if i use SoD.</blockquote>When all is said and done SOD is better than the Paladin Mythical.  Thanx for proving my Point. Math dont Lie.  Have a nice day</blockquote>thats based on block. if your looking at sod being better than paladin mythical based on block than you sir are mistaken, the damage reduction makes up for the block, the damage spread is better, i dont think i even have sod in my bags anymore for that reason...get the mythical, do the testing on it yourself then come talk about it. till then have a nice day

[JFanta]

<cite>Tamesan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hmm, ok the very top, longest playing Pals in top Guilds can work up to levels similiar to Guardians. How easy is it for Guardians to reach those levels compared to Paladins?</p><p>If a guild is looking for a new tank is it much faster to get a tank up to VP standard if they are a Guardian or Zerk?</p><p>TBH I see much more upper level Guard/Zerk gear dropping in raids than Cruasader stuff, but maybe I am unlucky?</p><p>Basically it seems that they gave Pals utility in the beginning to balance the other tanks intrinsic better ability to be hit and survive, but didnt scale it up with the expansions. Certainly our healing ability and borked "Oh Sh*t" spells arent compensation if you are looking at raid tanking. If they scale up our utility properly to help raid level encounters  then we will unbalance group content, so they really need to stick to the purely tank stuff, resistance, mit and avoidance.</p></blockquote>a Zerk? Are u kidding?the EOF aa of blocking mastery makes us have better avoidance than a zerk. And u should know block > parry a lot. especially for high level mobs.

[Tames]

<p>Well I am seeing Zerks picked ahead of Paladins for OT, perhaps they are poor choices...</p><p>Yup Myth Epic has some good points to mitigate the loss of Block, but:- 95% of Pals will not be using Myth Epics this expansion, they should have a reason for using their Fabled Epics, atm Soulfire Glad is better for MT and 2H better for DPS, why would they use their Fabled Epic?</p><p>I am still waiting to see something on the official forums from Devs about the fixing of the Pal Epics... /crickets</p>

[Tharinor Degaulle]

<p>I'm hitting ~72% avoidance when I am in my tanking gear and that's without the nice +block that Virutis uses.  I do it using +parry, +% riposte, and +% parry type gear.  Keep in mind that +% riposte/parry is uncontested and far different than +parry.  Look for items like Hoop of War from T7, Incarnadine Earring, Danak Essence Vial Necklance, +% parry and +% dodge food/drink, Mantle of Jarsath Waste, Shackle of the Court, +parry bracer adornment, +% parry wrist adornments, +%riposte/parry 1h slashing adornment, Drape of the Blackhearted, Green Dragon Shield, and Pristine Incarnadine Table.</p><p>Virutis is doing it with much better gear form Avatars and Trak, VP, etc., but I'm just showing that it's still possible with low end raid content and group encounter or lower content.</p>

[Tames]

Thanks for the list, there were a couple there I didnt know about <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Tharinor Degaulle]

<p>The new Shard of Hate zone drops a pair of greaves with high mitigation (713) and +3 defense, +6 parry IIRC.  Hate Hardened Greaves, and they drop off trash right now (not sure if this will get patched out).</p><p>Our VP set greaves are obviously better for DPS and barely inferior from a survivability standpoint.  For those that don't yet have VP set greaves, these are that much nicer.  I probably wouldn't use the Hate Hardened Greaves except in situations where I knew I would be MTing (or have to pick up aggro from a dead MT) or OTing something rough.</p>

[lik]

I dont really care how anyone takes this. Why would a Paladin be on a raid?  Plz dont say "amends" . A swashbuckler with a dirge can OT any adds in this game, Dont need a plate class to off tank in eq2 anymore. Thats not a insult to paladins, But Scouts can and do tank the Overking adds. There isnt 1 fight i can think of that "must have a plate off tank"

[Demoley]

<cite>liken wrote:</cite><blockquote>I dont really care how anyone takes this. Why would a Paladin be on a raid?  Plz dont say "amends" . A swashbuckler with a dirge can OT any adds in this game, Dont need a plate class to off tank in eq2 anymore. Thats not a insult to paladins, But Scouts can and do tank the Overking adds. There isnt 1 fight i can think of that "must have a plate off tank"</blockquote>you said overking, its obvious you haven't been in vp if your only talking overking....

[Tames]

<p>Hmm, if Plate OT's are only needed for VP that doesnt leave much else unless you are in a Guild that doesnt have good or well equipped defensive Scouts. I cant see Scouts having the same multi target capacity as Pals though?</p><p>Of course many Guilds wont have Scouts geared to the level that they can OT OK fights?</p><p>But I did see this in the last expansion for instances, only the tuffest 1-2 instances ended up needing Plate tanks to MT them once Scouts got geared up.</p>

[Tharinor Degaulle]

<p>Yeah, I don't think he's seen Phara Dar, much less Nexona or Druushk.</p><p>Phara Dar is best done with some combination of Guardian and Paladin, either 2 of one, or 1 of each, probably.  Nexona's adds are best handled by a Paladin OT as well, IMO, and Druushk I would say the same thing because of amends and the adds using demoralization on their target.</p><p>As for why you'd take them on any other raid, well, for the same reasons you'd take a Guardian or Bezerker on a raid.  You don't necessarily need them for anything outside of MTing, but you certainly want them geared up for when you do need them and you wouldn't want them to lose their edge sitting outside of all the raids.</p><p>Paladins have no problems MTing RoK, and they can certainly OT anything, and when they aren't OT or MTing, they can DPS well enough.</p><p>And this is to say nothing of the spike damage from double attacks, harm touches, etc., that you see in raids past T2.</p>

[Tharinor Degaulle]

<cite>Tamesan wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hmm, if Plate OT's are only needed for VP that doesnt leave much else unless you are in a Guild that doesnt have good or well equipped defensive Scouts. I cant see Scouts having the same multi target capacity as Pals though?</p><p>Of course many Guilds wont have Scouts geared to the level that they can OT OK fights?</p><p>But I did see this in the last expansion for instances, only the tuffest 1-2 instances ended up needing Plate tanks to MT them once Scouts got geared up.</p></blockquote>I can't help but think of the South Park episode about Mormon's and that song they sang off and on through the entire episode right now...

[cirrose]

<p>Ok I love my Paladin level 63, but I do love raids group. </p><p>And it's seens that there is no role in a raid group for paladin. I'm getting out of raids for been a Paladin.</p><p>All raids group that I send tell to, says that they already have a tank. That makes me crazy! There is no way to not be the tank in a group raid for a Paladin? </p><p>I'm almost dropping to be a champion so. I love my Paladin but I love raids group more....</p>

[Thraxarious]

<cite>cirrose wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok I love my Paladin level 63, but I do love raids group. </p><p>And it's seens that there is no role in a raid group for paladin. I'm getting out of raids for been a Paladin.</p><p>All raids group that I send tell to, says that they already have a tank. That makes me crazy! There is no way to not be the tank in a group raid for a Paladin? </p><p>I'm almost dropping to be a champion so. I love my Paladin but I love raids group more....</p></blockquote> There are many raid encounters where the tank being IMMUNE to fear is a good bonus. On many of our raids we switch between a guardian and Paladin in the MT role, the other taking OT or some other role. I know Protectors realm we do some switching sometimes, and Thuga its nice when dealing with the skeletons. The problem is your raid leader needs to consider uses of paladins in the equasion, and if people are super-min/maxing, paladins don't always make the cut. Consider more casual raid guilds but who are still tough and dedicated enough to go after higher level content. My Raiding guild is casual for my tastes, but we're moving into the second round of T8 Content after taking down pawbuster a few times.

[Meirril]

<cite>cirrose wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok I love my Paladin level 63, but I do love raids group. </p><p>And it's seens that there is no role in a raid group for paladin. I'm getting out of raids for been a Paladin.</p><p>All raids group that I send tell to, says that they already have a tank. That makes me crazy! There is no way to not be the tank in a group raid for a Paladin? </p><p>I'm almost dropping to be a champion so. I love my Paladin but I love raids group more....</p></blockquote><p>You'd probably get the same response if you were any other fighter class. Remember, out of 24 bodies generally only 2 are going to be fighters. Another 6 to 9 will be priests. The remaining 13-16 people will be split between mages and scouts with prefrences based on what the encounters favor. Even inside of that, most raids despreately want 1 bard per group, but no more than 1 bard per group. </p><p>Being a raid paladin means there is a group of people that like you well enough to have you tank for them, and generally means there is a raid leader that believes in you more than somebody else that desperately wants your spot.</p><p>Being raid DPS generally means you show up on time and arn't a slouch. Any DPS that can follow directions is generally welcomed.</p>

[Azurro]

<p>It's a sad testament to the messed up way raids are designed in this game that few or any require more then 2 plate tanks and 1 leather tank.  Even worse most raids will penalize you if you try and take more then 3-4 tanks with you from loss of DPS/Healing/Utility.  A 1/8 of the spots in a raid for a group that represents a 1/4 of the classes in the game has always seemed messed up to me especially when you usually need to dedicate four spots for Bards which represent just 1/12 of the classes in the game.  It's an issue with Min/Maxing and the resulting tweaking of encounters to anticipate it as much as anything else but I consider it a fundamental design flaw of the game.  When the developers tweak an encounter to anticipate players Min/Maxing they force raids to Min/Max to beat it.</p><p>On the bright side and maybe this is just the raid guild I happened to fall into I think Paladins at level 80 are more viable as MT/OT's then they have ever been.  With diminishing returns on Mitigation and Avoidance the Guardians short term Mit buffs aren't the overwhelming reduction in damage that they use to be.  Equally equipped Guardian's still have an edge over Paladins but it's not the overwhelming one it use to be allowing smart Paladins who know how to play their class to prove a spot for themselves in raiding guilds.  It's better then it was but there is still plenty of room for improvement if the Developers where inclined to close the gap between Paladins and Guardians which I'm convinced they are not.  So instead many of us plug away and do the best we can with the tools we have been given.  There are also a lot of old preconceptions about what a Paladin can and can not do that we all have to work at overcoming.</p><p>I wish you luck finding a raiding home</p>

[Arkinon]

<cite>Tharinor@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Yeah, I don't think he's seen Phara Dar, much less Nexona or Druushk.</p><p>Phara Dar is best done with some combination of Guardian and Paladin, either 2 of one, or 1 of each, probably.  Nexona's adds are best handled by a Paladin OT as well, IMO, and Druushk I would say the same thing because of amends and the adds using demoralization on their target.</p><p>As for why you'd take them on any other raid, well, for the same reasons you'd take a Guardian or Bezerker on a raid.  You don't necessarily need them for anything outside of MTing, but you certainly want them geared up for when you do need them and you wouldn't want them to lose their edge sitting outside of all the raids.</p><p>Paladins have no problems MTing RoK, and they can certainly OT anything, and when they aren't OT or MTing, they can DPS well enough.</p><p>And this is to say nothing of the spike damage from double attacks, harm touches, etc., that you see in raids past T2.</p></blockquote>LOL he used pally and DPS in the same sentence... and Ummm we dont harm touch. But I do agree with you on the MT / OT ... MT on hate the other night (IMO) just as well as our normal MT. A few bumps but was a blast.