How to fix Coercers [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

cxp1

04-02-2008, 04:53 PM

Here are some suggestions on how to fix Coercers:1. Charm. When pet is charmed decrease damage of all spells by 50%. Reduce chances for pet to break charm by 25%.2. Mezz Spells. Reduce chance for target to resist by 25%.3. Impetus. Add +10 to double attack or make 38% to dps and 38% attack speed.4. Enraging Demeanor. Make a 70+ spell with same % on hate gain and 25% (or more) on transfer.5. Debuffs. (Tashiana and Psyche) Make it 50% more difficult for the target to resist. In other words the same as before the resist changes for mages.5. Harmonious Link. VP set will apply a reduced version of harmonious link to the raid. (EDIT would not apply to fighters). Half the proc and half the hate reduction. Coercers may still use slots to apply the normal version.6. Hostage. Damage is increased by 50% and triggers off attempts by the mob not damage. i.e. parry, block, misses etc would trigger. Remove Ordination mastery and changed to Disruption.7. Asylum, Hemorrhage, Ego Melt, Dissecting Gaze, Brainshock, and Shock Wave would do 50% more damage. Slow Hemorrhage cast time by 50%.8. Cataclysmic Mind. (most broken spell) would become a nuke 2.5-3k and 1.2-1.5 per tick for 3 ticks. AA would increase the number of ticks.9. Puppet master. Either make a pet that does modest damage (300-400dps) or triple the damage.10. Possession. Make the duration 5 min it can be cast in combat and not dispelled when target takes damage. Also increase the range by 10m.11. Thoughtsnap. Reduce resistibility by 50%.12. Anesthesia. Reduce resistibility by 50%. Change Mastery from Ordination to Subjugation.13. Coercive Healing. Increase trigger on Cleric reactives by 2 not 1.It would really be nice to have a pet like illusionist to use on raids...Gear. Make the stats equal to Illusionist for VP set gear. (INT, STR, STA, HP, PWR). Mythical: (suggestions you pick) add pet, increase the base damage of spells by 15%, Sirens Gift procs twice as much, add +15 subjugation. Anyway I think most of these ideas make sense. SOE could always add more utility and less dps but this would be harder to do. Vixn80 Coercer Befallen

XFnarX

04-03-2008, 03:51 AM

1. Charm. When pet is charmed decrease damage of all spells by 50%. Reduce chances for pet to break charm by 25%. - Nah, Charm is fine the way it is. Maybe at most change the recent nerf back.2. Mezz Spells. Reduce chance for target to resist by 25%. - Yes please... 3. Impetus. Add +10 to double attack or make 38% to dps and 38% attack speed. - With epic maybe... but the 78 points of DPS is rather powerful as is for some classes atm. This is fine.4. Enraging Demeanor. Make a 70+ spell with same % on hate gain and 25% (or more) on transfer. - That's to much of a dump. Yes make another level 70, bit don't change the %s.5. Debuffs. (Tashiana and Psyche) Make it 50% more difficult for the target to resist. In other words the same as before the resist changes for mages. - /agree5. Harmonious Link. VP set will apply a reduced version of harmonious link to the raid. Half the proc and half the hate reduction. Coercers may still use slots to apply the normal version. - Yes, but honestly... raid wide would = 0% because everyone would have the same %age. *nods* I R good with num-bars! It would have to be like "If not fighter" if they did this.6. Hostage. Damage is increased by 50% and triggers off attempts by the mob not damage. i.e. parry, block, misses etc would trigger. Remove Ordination mastery and changed to Disruption. - Um... no. My hostages crit for 4k+. A 50% gain would get me killed, although I do like the "on attempts" idea.7. Asylum, Hemorrhage, Ego Melt, Dissecting Gaze, Brainshock, and Shock Wave would do 50% more damage. Slow Hemorrhage cast time by 50%. - Again, no. This would get me WAY to much aggro and I would parse way to high.8. Cataclysmic Mind. (most broken spell) would become a nuke 2.5-3k and 1.2-1.5 per tick for 3 ticks. AA would increase the number of ticks. - This is a neat idea, tho I think they should just make mobs USE POWER again. lol9. Puppet master. Either make a pet that does modest damage (300-400dps) or triple the damage. - Again, this spell is useless either way on oranges. I think they should just make the puppets ridiculously huge instead of super small. *nods*10. Possession. Make the duration 5 min it can be cast in combat and not dispelled when target takes damage. Also increase the range by 10m. - Seriously? I mean... seriously? The range needs help, it casting in combat would be nice... but the 5min. I mean... come on now.11. Thoughtsnap. Reduce resistibility by 50%. - TS is useless as is. Get a better tank. I have yet to see a use for this ability and my guild is on Trak. TS = weak-sauce tanking skills or a crappy coercer hate dump. Fix those first.12. Anesthesia. Reduce resistibility by 50%. Change Mastery from Ordination to Subjugation. - This makes sense... this I like.13. Coercive Healing. Increase trigger on Cleric reactives by 2 not 1. - This is also a good idea, but I think just increasing the amount PER tick by 15% (like the other two) make more sense.Some good ideas here, but honestly if they did all of these it would be like us going from good to GOD. That's not what I am looking for in this class. I like the challenge and I like making peoples jaws drop when they see a Coercer that knows how to parse constantly over 2k, and can break 4,500 on the right mobs. Not to say it wouldn't be fun to see all of this, but seriously, it would be worse than Warlock aggro. [Removed for Content]

Illine

04-03-2008, 06:24 AM

<cite>cxp1 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Here are some suggestions on how to fix Coercers:1. Charm. When pet is charmed decrease damage of all spells by 50%. Reduce chances for pet to break charm by 25%. why change that?2. Mezz Spells. Reduce chance for target to resist by 25%. should be same for illus then3. Impetus. Add +10 to double attack or make 38% to dps and 38% attack speed. no because it has to be in line with the +haste illu spell. They buff haste we buff dps4. Enraging Demeanor. Make a 70+ spell with same % on hate gain and 25% (or more) on transfer. Yes, improve it5. Debuffs. (Tashiana and Psyche) Make it 50% more difficult for the target to resist. In other words the same as before the resist changes for mages. agree5. Harmonious Link. VP set will apply a reduced version of harmonious link to the raid. Half the proc and half the hate reduction. Coercers may still use slots to apply the normal version. make it as our res line AA buff ... not working on tanks6. Hostage. Damage is increased by 50% and triggers off attempts by the mob not damage. i.e. parry, block, misses etc would trigger. Remove Ordination mastery and changed to Disruption. agree for procing on any attemps and changing it to disruption but not increase damage. do the same for spell whip ... damage even if the spell is resisted.7. Asylum, Hemorrhage, Ego Melt, Dissecting Gaze, Brainshock, and Shock Wave would do 50% more damage. Slow Hemorrhage cast time by 50%. those spells are fine. We're not dps machines. Only thing that could be changed is removing the power damage and then increasing the life damage.8. Cataclysmic Mind. (most broken spell) would become a nuke 2.5-3k and 1.2-1.5 per tick for 3 ticks. AA would increase the number of ticks. I want the spell to work, not to be changed and I want to work the the power drain spells9. Puppet master. Either make a pet that does modest damage (300-400dps) or triple the damage. or just delete it and make a usefull spell10. Possession. Make the duration 5 min it can be cast in combat and not dispelled when target takes damage. Also increase the range by 10m. increase range yes, make it usefull on in-combat mobs but not increase duration. Must think that while you possess it, the coercer can't do anything, can be a problem sometimes. Plus the mob should not aggro the coercer at the end of the spell if it was cas on a non in-combat mob.11. Thoughtsnap. Reduce resistibility by 50%. Don't use it much so I can't really say anything about it12. Anesthesia. Reduce resistibility by 50%. Change Mastery from Ordination to Subjugation. yes, it's stupid ... it's a stun + mem wipe, it's subjugation not ordination.13. Coercive Healing. Increase trigger on Cleric reactives by 2 not 1. or make it groupe wide :p ... but now it's really usefull on shamans, a little less on druids and even less on clerics .. sad ...It would really be nice to have a pet like illusionist to use on raids... I don't care about a pet, I'm a coercer, I charm ... make the charm no conc slot like the illu's pet after the mythicalGear. Make the stats equal to Illusionist for VP set gear. (INT, STR, STA, HP, PWR). Mythical: (suggestions you pick) add <strike>pet</strike> non con slot charm pet, increase the base damage of spells by 15%, Sirens Gift procs twice as much, add +15 subjugation. Anyway I think most of these ideas make sense. SOE could always add more utility and less dps but this would be harder to do. Vixn80 Coercer Befallen</blockquote>same as above. we're broken but not totally so if SOE did everything you said (which I doubt :p), we would be too powerfull.

Alfgand

04-03-2008, 02:29 PM

Frankly this thread is just muddying the waters.First there is good thread at the top, stickyed that details our issues in a more constructive manner.Telling the devs what percentage to increase something is a waste of time. Telling them how many points damage a spell should do is also a waste of time. They are going to change or not change things based on how they think things need to be balanced. As players we have no idea what factors are involved. We need to speak in more general terms, like the 1 March.. thread I mentioned.We need them to understand that our utility in raids in being diminished in comparison to other classes. The 1 March thread does this quite well. Asking them to boost our hate tranfer is useful input, telling them to increase our hate transfer by 12.435% is a waste.We need them to understand that our DPS in in a raid or group is less than what it should be compared to our brother chanters the Illusionists because we do not have a pet in those circumstances and it appears our DPS was designed around having a pet. (Nerfing Illusionists is not the answer, fixing us is)We are all so very happy that XFnarX you are so uber and have so high DPS that you need no fixing but the majority of Coercers here are saying that on average, the average Coercer in comparison with a equally equipted, similarly specced, equally mastered , equally played Illusionist does significantly less DPS and offers less and less utility as time goes on and thats what needs fixing. I would suspect that an Illusionist geared and specced and mastered the same as you would blow your DPS away and that you provide no more and perhaps less utility to a raid than that Illusionist does. Thats the issue, we are not worried a bit about you getting more agro. <hr />XFnarX said:4. Enraging Demeanor. Make a 70+ spell with same % on hate gain and 25% (or more) on transfer. - That's to much of a dump. Yes make another level 70, bit don't change the %s.Make it a level 70 but don't change the percentages? So keep the hate gain and hate transfer percentage the same? What purpose would there be then to making a level 70 spell? lol Are the people in your group or raid resisting the spell? lol Or is to just make us feel better by having a newer spell to have on a hot bar?<hr />We don't want to parse like Wizards, Warlocks, Necros or Conjurors, we just want to have equal utility to Illusionists and do equal DPS without nerfing them into being broken like us.

cxp1

04-03-2008, 07:13 PM

Actually, this thread was not intended address the WHY spells are broken but HOW to fix them. There has been much debate about utility vs. dps for Coercers. In reality, utility is much harder to program, and thus much less likely to be added. We already have these percentage based spells that the developers have capped. Instead of asking them to spend a lot of time revamping our class, my thought is to make our dps slightly superior to Illusionist and leave our inferior utililty alone. If the devs want to give us more utility and less dps, so be it; I wouldn't hold my breath.The reason we need a charm NERF, without it we can't expect for them to double our dps. There has to be a trade off for raiding players. I should be able as a mage to nuke/dot the mob, or use a charm pet with lesser spell damage. Sure solo/group players might not like it, but without this trade-off SOE won't give us the dps we need in raids. With the changes I've suggested we would still have less utiltiy, slightly better dps, and better power management. That would balance us nicely with Illusionist without making us over-powered. Group/Solo players wouldn't notice a huge difference in play.On the thread issue... long threads are typically ignored. I personally prefer threads that are to the point vs. pages and pages of opinions that have huge breadth. A good Illusionist can out dps a Necro/Conj and is equal on single target mobs to a warlock. So if we are equal or better we would do the same.Vixn80 Coercer Befallen

Rijacki

04-04-2008, 01:38 AM

<cite>Svenghali@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>We don't want to parse like Wizards, Warlocks, Necros or Conjurors, we just want to have equal utility to Illusionists and do equal DPS without nerfing them into being broken like us.</blockquote>I agree!Giving the Demeanor line a thought.. I wonder if the devs would consider a new (i.e. 70+) version that had the same hate transfer and magnify percents but added another threat related thing... +aggression for it's target. It would be a way to build on the spell but without making it over powered (or over done) -and- give it a distinction from the rogue transfer.

Illine

04-04-2008, 06:12 AM

<cite>cxp1 wrote:</cite> <blockquote>A good Illusionist can out dps a Necro/Conj and is equal on single target mobs to a warlock. So if we are equal or better we would do the same.</blockquote>then necro/conju and warlock are also broken ... since they give a lot less utility than illus and still can't out parse them.I read somewhere that a good coercer could do 2k dps. A good illu between 2k5 - 3k5 and wizard 3k5+.Plus Illus are always with a troub in raid group and coercer not ... so we can't compare because they get advantages we don't. Illus will always outparse us, don't hope. They are more offensive oriented and coercer more defensive. Can't change it.

XFnarX

04-05-2008, 03:19 PM

<cite>Earar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>cxp1 wrote:</cite> <blockquote>A good Illusionist can out dps a Necro/Conj and is equal on single target mobs to a warlock. So if we are equal or better we would do the same.</blockquote>then necro/conju and warlock are also broken ... since they give a lot less utility than illus and still can't out parse them.I read somewhere that a good coercer could do 2k dps. A good illu between 2k5 - 3k5 and wizard 3k5+.Plus Illus are always with a troub in raid group and coercer not ... so we can't compare because they get advantages we don't. Illus will always outparse us, don't hope. They are more offensive oriented and coercer more defensive. Can't change it.</blockquote>Yes and no. A "good" Coercer Should constantly parse above 2k regardless of the mob while breaking 3k+ on some. A "good" illu should be doing 3,500+ on all mobs 4,500+ on some. A good wizard should parse over 4k constantly. Anything lower than this and you are "ok" at best. Oh and if your Warlock can't out parse EVERYONE (minus maybe your assassin) on almost EVERY parse, he/she is a button-mashing-[Removed for Content]. Our Loc parses 4k+ constantly, breaking 5k sometimes and even pushing 6k (these are SINGLES btw, not groups). Same with Conj for the 4k+ parses. Now our Necros are a little less so they could use a bit of a boost, but in no way are the classes them selves broken, just the players are broken.On the flip side, yeah this was basically a silly post with some interesting suggestions. Yes we are beating a dead horse here, but that doesn't mean it's not fun to comment on. =p Lighten up.