Raiding Guardian vs. Berzerker

[Arody]

Which is the best class to play for T8 Raids and to be the MAIN TANK? Why? What is the best AA line for Guardians who want to MT for Raids?

[BoneSmasher]

Just browse through these boards and you will find that those questions have been answered a bunch of times.  for additional info, check out the guardian class boards at eq2flames.com

[Arody]

What is the best possible AA line for Guardian Raiders

[BoneSmasher]

It depends on a number of factors.  All of these have been discussed in detail on this board.

[PeterJohn]

<cite>Brand@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>It depends on a number of factors.  All of these have been discussed in detail on this board.</blockquote>Thank you for not answering the question.

[Zeuhl]

 Like the answer is impossible to find with all the stickied threads just like in our section.

[Vlahkmaak]

<p>Currently my guardian is buckler spec'd since I recently aquired Virtues Guard - prior to having VG I prefered to tank raid mobs with a Tower shield and dual wield once mob was under control frequently switching tower in and out during spike gamage (macro shields and primary/offhand weapons) made this a very fast exchange. Tower Shield I suggest:STR 4-4-8-6-2 = max melee crit, some extra hate mod (negligible so dont waste 8 points here) + ned line gives increased meleee crit and taunt efffectiveness.</p><p>AGI 4-4-6-8-2 = I like the avoidance (avoiding hits makes healers job easier), end line 100% parry = 1 extra get out of death card when needed.</p><p>INT 4-4-4-8 = I use this line for parry and the haste CA - the CA is more valuable than the 3rd skill IMO.  </p><p>I left 1 point out - you can assigne to 1 extra AGI, 1 extra in attk speed, 1 extra in the %chance for melee crit - I actually forget where I ahd it assigned.  </p><p>I don't take the end line in INT becuase I ahve not needed the faster CA resets.  I have used it in the past usually bouncing betweenthe end caps in INT, AGI, and STR.  When I run the WIS line, which I like for the penalty reduction on stances and oter defensive postures I typically DO take the end line in INT to help build aggro more effeciently - I only use INT line end cap with the STA line though.  I know alot of guards dont care for the wis line but I like it. Gonna keep playing with it as I get better gear to see if I could replace maybe STR line with wis.  DPS over Melee crit? Not sure of the trade off at thsi point.</p><p>Currently I tank buckler line as noted: I used to only PVP with the buckler line finding it not very useful for MT. HOWEVER - Virtues Guard changed that as soon as I equiped it.</p><p> Buckler (If you dont have Virtues guard a decent buckler drops in SLeepers with nice melee stats.  It is purple and goes good with the Tireless Quest line plate armor which I use for appearance armor).  </p><p>STR 4-4-8-6-2</p><p>STA 4-4-8-8-2</p><p>INT 4-5-4-8</p><p>These are my current builds.  With VG buckler and the Danak Vial neck piece you will ahve 10% uncontested riposte.  Add inqy AGI line 60% additional chance for inqy to block, plus SK avoidance buff you ahve alot of chances to avoid damge out right.  For the SK ability for MIT and avoidance you loose your vigilance parry but it is negligible - add a bruiser to your group and you would have more but then you have to sacrifice either the assassin or the dirge.  I play on a PVP server so I have access to FP only classes.</p>

[Rahatmattata]

I don't think I've seen any 2 guardians with the exact same AA build <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />But yea... I'm not gonna feed this one... these questions are so common and in almost every thread.

[TheSpin]

<p>I would have to say that Guardian beats out a zerker for main tanking for a couple possible reasons, but one main reason that I'm going to mention.</p><p>Guardians are built for the long haul.  Over time the guardian will mitigate and/or avoid the most damage of all plate tanks.  Shadowknights have some nice abilities to deal with spike damage, but their avoidence is impossible to raise.  Zerkers have pretty good buffs but their big level 80 spell is a temporary buff that reduces their damage taken.</p><p>Tanking is about 2 things, holding aggro and taking damage...  Guardians have some great abilities to fill both of these roles and definately have the strongest balance between the two.</p>

[Arody]

<p>here is my future set can i get some feedback pls,</p><p>Agi 4-4-8-8-1</p><p>Wis 4-8-4-8-1</p><p>Str 4-4-6-6</p><p>What do you all think of this build?</p>

[Raahl]

<p>In a raid, a zerkers mit vs. a guardians mit should be about the same.  </p><p>Not sure on the avoidance.  I think they are similar also.</p><p>Now the big thing is keeping aggro.  Zerkers get it and keep it with DPS more than abilities.  Guardian also use DPS, but augment it with abilities like Reinforcement.</p>

[Raahl]

<cite>Arodynn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>here is my future set can i get some feedback pls,</p><p>Agi 4-4-8-8-1</p><p>Wis 4-8-4-8-1</p><p>Str 4-4-6-6</p><p>What do you all think of this build?</p></blockquote><p>Dump the Wis and go STA.</p><p>Here's my recommendation.  I'm spec'd for DPS.  </p><p>STR: 4/4/8 (increased crit chance)</p><p>AGI: 4/8/8/2/1 (Decent AoE attacks)</p><p>STA: 4/4/8 (Double Attack)</p><p>INT: 4/4/5 (Haste)</p>

[Kage8]

<p>Ok guardians r better tanks than zerkers in all ways.</p><p>takeing damage: guardians get a sta buff and a hp buff = alot more hps. They also get a parry buff = more avoidance. Advantage Guardian</p><p>Agrro: guardians taunt when they get hit is 50% zerkers is 20% ( i think thats right may be off a little but thats about right ) guardians get deaggro for one person and a intercept damage line too. and gaurdians get reinforcement. There is a small advantage on multiple mobs with the zerker cause of our AoE's but guardians now can go the agi line, and they do, for 40% multiple mob hits on auto attacks. AND RoK is moslty single mob content. Advantage Guardian</p><p>DPS: again because of agi line and RoK being single mob fights the zerker AoE abilities go to waste. Advantage ( In RoK ) Even.. On a side note im an excelent zerker and on our RoK raids i break even with the guardian MT on DPS. Now while i dont raid alot with my zerker and theres room for little imporovements and the MT does get all the nice buffs and such this is still not exceptable!</p><p>There is no reason at all in RoK to play a zerker over a guardian. Thats why all the zerkers have betrayed.</p>

[Arody]

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Arodynn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>here is my future set can i get some feedback pls,</p><p>Agi 4-4-8-8-1</p><p>Wis 4-8-4-8-1</p><p>Str 4-4-6-6</p><p>What do you all think of this build?</p></blockquote><p>Dump the Wis and go STA.</p><p>Here's my recommendation.  I'm spec'd for DPS.  </p><p>STR: 4/4/8 (increased crit chance)</p><p>AGI: 4/8/8/2/1 (Decent AoE attacks)</p><p>STA: 4/4/8 (Double Attack)</p><p>INT: 4/4/5 (Haste)</p></blockquote>i dont want DPS specked i want most MIT and most HATE and most Health 

[Barakuz]

<p>DPS = Hate, and the majority of MIT comes from gear. And if you don't want DPS spec then just search the forums for alternate suggested AA builds.</p>

[Raahl]

<cite>Arodynn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Arodynn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>here is my future set can i get some feedback pls,</p><p>Agi 4-4-8-8-1</p><p>Wis 4-8-4-8-1</p><p>Str 4-4-6-6</p><p>What do you all think of this build?</p></blockquote><p>Dump the Wis and go STA.</p><p>Here's my recommendation.  I'm spec'd for DPS.  </p><p>STR: 4/4/8 (increased crit chance)</p><p>AGI: 4/8/8/2/1 (Decent AoE attacks)</p><p>STA: 4/4/8 (Double Attack)</p><p>INT: 4/4/5 (Haste)</p></blockquote>i dont want DPS specked i want most MIT and most HATE and most Health </blockquote><p>The Mit you get from WIS is a joke.   In a raid the buffs of your raid members should get you pretty good mit.  You quickly start hitting diminishing returns so your WIS is a waste.  When you were a young guardian WIS worked well, but when you are decked out in raid gear and have all those nice mit buffs on you, WIS is a waste.</p><p>As said above, DPS = Hate.  I'm of the belief that DPS is king when it comes to hate.  There are many tanks that sacrafice MIT by fighting in offensive stance, just to make sure they keep hate.  Also ask yourself why so many raid MT's are buckler spec'd.  It's all about generating as much hate as possible so that when your raid gets to 25k+ raidwide DPS. you can keep aggro.</p><p>As far as health your build does nothing to increase it, where mine does somewhat.  Health comes from having a high STA and having the right buffs on you in the raid.  Gear is a big part of the equation.</p><p>Again this is my suggestion, take it or leave it.   IMO your build will have a lot of problems keeping aggro.</p>

[Raahl]

Oh and a side affect of being DPS spec'd is that you will find solo'ing a lot easier.  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[lik]

Its sad really, I took some time off this game and came back too see many of my old zerker friends are now Guards. The 2 other plate tanks have no chance to MT raids.  So Guard is really the only plate wearing class with taunts anyone should play.

[Kage8]

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Arodynn wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Arodynn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>here is my future set can i get some feedback pls,</p><p>Agi 4-4-8-8-1</p><p>Wis 4-8-4-8-1</p><p>Str 4-4-6-6</p><p>What do you all think of this build?</p></blockquote><p>Dump the Wis and go STA.</p><p>Here's my recommendation.  I'm spec'd for DPS.  </p><p>STR: 4/4/8 (increased crit chance)</p><p>AGI: 4/8/8/2/1 (Decent AoE attacks)</p><p>STA: 4/4/8 (Double Attack)</p><p>INT: 4/4/5 (Haste)</p></blockquote>i dont want DPS specked i want most MIT and most HATE and most Health </blockquote><p>The Mit you get from WIS is a joke.   In a raid the buffs of your raid members should get you pretty good mit.  You quickly start hitting diminishing returns so your WIS is a waste.  When you were a young guardian WIS worked well, but when you are decked out in raid gear and have all those nice mit buffs on you, WIS is a waste.</p><p>As said above, DPS = Hate.  I'm of the belief that DPS is king when it comes to hate.  There are many tanks that sacrafice MIT by fighting in offensive stance, just to make sure they keep hate.  Also ask yourself why so many raid MT's are buckler spec'd.  It's all about generating as much hate as possible so that when your raid gets to 25k+ raidwide DPS. you can keep aggro.</p><p>As far as health your build does nothing to increase it, where mine does somewhat.  Health comes from having a high STA and having the right buffs on you in the raid.  Gear is a big part of the equation.</p><p>Again this is my suggestion, take it or leave it.   IMO your build will have a lot of problems keeping aggro.</p></blockquote><p>i dont know about wis anymore. i kinda like it not for the mit, although its not great its not a waste either, i like the stance mastery. now im at work but im ganna look into this when i get home but my rough nubers r as follows..</p><p>int line: u have only 5 ponts in haste. thats about 15% haste.</p><p>agi line: 40% AoE. Im a big fan of this and i use it on my guardian atm but as i stated b4 RoK is single mob fights so im not sure how usefull AoE is anymore. same for the AoE attack u get on the second part of the line. 2 in the def or parry, forgot what one that is, is like 3 parry and the last part in  the line i like too 12 sec imunity is nice.</p><p>now if u do wis line ( by droping agi. I think ur points in int r a total waste and u should be 4/4/8/8 in sta ): u go 4/4/8/8/1. U get 20% dps, imho better than haste, roughly 350mit ( and yes im well aware of dim returns ) and u get the S/C/P debuff taken off ur def stance. Whats that like 30 or so, maby more. And in off stance u get back 30 or so def/parry. </p><p>I dont know i kinda like the wis line only cause ROK and its crappy single mob content. Although i am also very fond of agi line too.</p><p>so Agi line: 4/4/8/8/1....40% AoE auto attack....roughly 10 or so def i think....and the 12 sec immunity</p><p>int: 4/4/8/8....20% haste....roughly 10 or so parry, lol again im at work, and the CA haste thing wich is non-reliable. oh and if u go to the last part better reuse wich i dont think st too big a deal on my guardian.</p><p>wis: 4/4/8/8/1...20% dps....350mit....30 or so def....or.....30 or so S/C/P</p><p>Now i just rembered i play a zerker as a main and i came to realize u guys dont get our 30 or so to haste and dps proc so i do understand that haste and dps mean more to u..I also as a zerker am in love with S/C/P as that makes me into a monster...So all in all id say the choices r though, but i think wis line is one way to go and not to be discareded alltogether.</p>

[Raahl]

<p>Again this is what works for me.  If you can make the other setup work for you, go for it.  </p><p>The thing I don't like about the added parry or defense from the AGI and INT lines are that they cause you to get hit less which causes our hate buff (Hold the Line series) to not proc as much.  Granted it's not much, but with your reduced DPS, you need all the hate you can get.</p><p>I've tried any number of combinations of AA setups.  My current setup works best when I MT.</p><p>About the Zerkers betraying, I feel it's more of a grass is greener issue.  Zerkers are extremely capable MT's for raiding.  </p>

[Kage8]

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Again this is what works for me.  If you can make the other setup work for you, go for it.  </p><p>The thing I don't like about the added parry or defense from the AGI and INT lines are that they cause you to get hit less which causes our hate buff (Hold the Line series) to not proc as much.  Granted it's not much, but with your reduced DPS, you need all the hate you can get.</p><p>I've tried any number of combinations of AA setups.  My current setup works best when I MT.</p><p><b>About the Zerkers betraying, I feel it's more of a grass is greener issue.  Zerkers are extremely capable MT's for raiding.</b>  </p></blockquote>thats kewl. thats what i like about the guardians and the warrior tree. |You can do a few diff ways and there all good.However the bold sentence is wrong, wrong, wrong lol. I have a t8 guardian and a t8 zerker and im telling u its just wrong lol.Guardians r the MT's of the game now period

[lik]

"Guardians r the MT's of the game now period"  I agree with that 100%.   But why is it that way?  is there only 1 dps? only 1 healer?  I play zerker-guard-and pally. Guard is the only Plate tank needed in eq2.    Sad really <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e78feac27fa924c4d0ad6cf5819f3554.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Raahl]

<cite>Kage848 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Again this is what works for me.  If you can make the other setup work for you, go for it.  </p><p>The thing I don't like about the added parry or defense from the AGI and INT lines are that they cause you to get hit less which causes our hate buff (Hold the Line series) to not proc as much.  Granted it's not much, but with your reduced DPS, you need all the hate you can get.</p><p>I've tried any number of combinations of AA setups.  My current setup works best when I MT.</p><p><b>About the Zerkers betraying, I feel it's more of a grass is greener issue.  Zerkers are extremely capable MT's for raiding.</b>  </p></blockquote>However the bold sentence is wrong, wrong, wrong lol. I have a t8 guardian and a t8 zerker and im telling u its just wrong lol.Guardians r the MT's of the game now period</blockquote><p>So T8 is that much different than T7?  I've seen Zerkers and even Shadowknights being MT in T7 raids.  Are they the optimal choice? Probably not, but they could MT in T7.  </p>

[Kage8]

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kage848 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Again this is what works for me.  If you can make the other setup work for you, go for it.  </p><p>The thing I don't like about the added parry or defense from the AGI and INT lines are that they cause you to get hit less which causes our hate buff (Hold the Line series) to not proc as much.  Granted it's not much, but with your reduced DPS, you need all the hate you can get.</p><p>I've tried any number of combinations of AA setups.  My current setup works best when I MT.</p><p><b>About the Zerkers betraying, I feel it's more of a grass is greener issue.  Zerkers are extremely capable MT's for raiding.</b>  </p></blockquote>However the bold sentence is wrong, wrong, wrong lol. I have a t8 guardian and a t8 zerker and im telling u its just wrong lol.Guardians r the MT's of the game now period</blockquote><p>So T8 is that much different than T7?  I've seen Zerkers and even Shadowknights being MT in T7 raids.  Are they the optimal choice? Probably not, but they could MT in T7.  </p></blockquote>yea t7 and t8 are alot diff. I have only raided T1 of T8, im getting confused now =0)...in t1 im told u can have a zerker mt and maby thats true but there is no need or reason to use them. if all the mobs r single encounters like they are then theres no need for the zerker and his less hps and less parry and less s/c/p, for aoe thats not needed.and i live on the boards here and at eq2flames and i have read over and over that behond t1 zerkers cannot mt raids. this is not 1 or 2 trolls saying this. theres a reason Skel betrayed and Kept has quit.it would not take too much to fix the imbalance either. give zerkers a way to tank in def stance. some kind of tauting tool or a s/c/p buff...and fix adrenaline...make it last the full duration.sorry to take up ur forums with zerker problems....just sucks when my 2 toons r a ranger and a zerker....<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />guardians ftw

[BoneSmasher]

<p>Ok I will answer your question.</p><p>I am a raid MT and I run two different AA builds using a mirror.</p><p>Both of them are DPS specs.</p><p>Now, my AA build will change once we progress into T3 and T4.</p><p>I run a buckler build that is: </p><p>STA 4 4 8 8, STR 6 4 8, INT 4 5 8 8 1 </p><p>and my Tower Shield build is:</p><p>WIS 4 8 8 4 1, STR 4 4 8, INT 4,5,8,8,1</p><p>I pretty much tank all of T1 in offensive stance. </p><p>For example, on pawbuster trash with a coercer and dirge in group, I parse  over 3.5K, in tower shield build.</p><p>I have average gear.  My profile is public if you want to see it, since listing gear is a pain.</p><p>Every guardian runs a little different build based on playstyle, gear, etc.</p><p>Once you get out of T2, avoidance becomes a lot more important from what I understand.  So you would need to change your AA build to suit the tier you are raiding.</p><p>In groups doing t8 instances, I normally parse 2.5 to 4.5K depending on the group make up, usually averaging 2.2 to 2.5K zonewides.</p><p>I have all T8 Adept 3s except for 6 T8 Masters.</p><p>Whether you build for defense using the AGI line, DPS, etc is really a matter of choice, gear, playstyle, etc.  Everyone plays a bit different.  That is why there is no set AA build that works best, since what works best for one tank sucks for another tank.</p>

[Naq'Jundax]

<cite>Raahl wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Again this is what works for me.  If you can make the other setup work for you, go for it.  </p><p>The thing I don't like about the added parry or defense from the AGI and INT lines are that they cause you to get hit less which causes our hate buff (Hold the Line series) to not proc as much.  Granted it's not much, but with your reduced DPS, you need all the hate you can get.</p><p>I've tried any number of combinations of AA setups.  My current setup works best when I MT.</p><p>About the Zerkers betraying, I feel it's more of a grass is greener issue.  <span style="font-size: small;"><b>Zerkers are extremely capable MT's for raiding. </b></span> </p></blockquote>That's where my question is...I got a lvl 80 berserk (50% crits, 70% DA), that betrayed twice already at 37 and 76 back to zerk, so i been a guard for quite some time. I became a zerker for faster grouping,first time i tanked CoA at lvl 76 as zerk and all went lot faster, but now when im 80 and i have all the gear i wanted from instances - i wanna raid...Ive got 2 guilds askin to MT for them, but i think that requires changing back to guard... since Guards are the only MTs for Kunark raids as i heard.But if i betray for the 3rd time, i will lose my epic (will have to do guard's) and 5 masters lvl 71+ (spent about 180p for em)...So do u really think i can MT in kunark and what tiers? or should i spent all my money now for 25 silicates and then do guard epic?

[Wilin]

<p>The short story is:</p><p>Go ahead and betray.</p>

[Vlahkmaak]

A good zerker can tank t8 raids just fine, at least t1 and 2 - cannot speak for higher lvls. 

[Wilin]

<p>Yep. It's true, they can tank through T2 at least.</p><p>But, the reasons he gave for not betraying aren't valid in a T8 raid setting. Fabled epics are easy to get, and 180pp is nothing to a T8 guild. I personally don't think you should buy the 25 loams. If the guild wants you to betray, they should be providing the resources to set you up.</p>

[LygerT]

<p>i've tanked T1-2 and i know Leviathan wouldn't be an issue, also cleared trash in VP/tanked VP named temporarily and MTed SoH(yes that zone is a joke i know..).</p><p>once you get to tanking VP named is where the line is drawn, i can tank fine when adrenaline is up(50% damage absorption), without it my health bounces like a rollercoaster from 100% to red. zerks can use towers still but aggro generation is at least 10% less with a tower and little to nothing we can do to gain that hate back so mitigating hits is not what we excel at. sure a zerk can MT but expect a few deaths along the path of your raid members, more pain and suffering than you should submit them to and not a thing you can do about it aside from stack as many specialty items in your bags and on your hotbar as you can fit and hope you don't screw up. </p>