Raid Guilds Greed

[JmacF]

<p>This post is an opinion of my own towards the Guk server.</p><p>Congratulations to the guilds that have the members to get their mythical weapons.  My small guild will not be able to get theirs because we are shut out of the high level guild raids because when we ask if we can raid with them, we get an emphasized "NO" in response. </p><p>It be a warm day in Everfrost when i see NPU, Troops of Doom, Keepers of Realm, OWG, etc...  actually say "Why don't we split our normal guild raid up and invite smaller guilds to play with us." </p><p>My guild has maybe 6 full time players in it and 12 total.   We are very casual players, who occassionally like to jump into a raid and learn the zones.    However, everytime I ask someone if i can join their raid I get a tell back saying, "We don't allow people outside our guild to raid with us."   Or I hear, "Stand by and if we have room we'll invite you, " only to know that the response will be, "Sorry, we filled it with our guild members." </p><p>You should be ashamed of yourselfs for being that greedy that you can't allow those of us who work 65 - 70 hours a week a chance to obtain the pleasure of raiding one the high end raid zones. </p><p>Currenly, I have one option if i want to raid and that's to leave the guild that have become my family and friends over the past 4+ years. </p>

[corndog2451]

Would you like some cheese with that whine?

[StormCinder]

<p>I may be incorrect, but I think SOE added an option where you can recruit new members to your guild and try to get enough folks in it to conduct the raids that you feel shut out of.  I will check the forums to find out when this options was added.</p><p>I don't think blaming other guilds is appropriate, though.</p><p>SC</p>

[KBern]

<p>Explain why they should help you?</p><p>Do they owe you something?  Are they social service organizations?</p><p>Where do they draw the line of helping people?  Every lvl 80 on the server should get to be helped get their mythical?</p><p>You do understand these raids are incredibly difficult and even guilds that have static raid forces have trouble with the mobs?  Why should they trust every random player to come in to ruin what they have worked for?</p><p>I am amazed you think it is wrong that guilds let their guildies actually raid first and take priority over random player 01.  Simply amazing.</p><p>You have some serious misguided entitlement issues going on.</p><p>IF you want your mythical, dont want to leave your guild, and think other guilds are in the same boat, then stop whining about it and start making an alliance and work for it yourself.</p>

[interstellarmatter]

<p>Do you know how hard it is to do those raids with an unfamiliar force?  Inviting people outside of the guild is a mix for a very bad night.  They raid everynight together which is why they can clear those zones for their mythical.  What makes you think that they can do it without their normal team?  Heck, we tried to a different tank outside of the guild the other night and we got stuck after the first mob.</p><p>My advice, get your team up to speed and more members and clear it.  You'll have a great sense of accomplishment.</p>

[Solaran_X]

I'm not a hard core raider. Haven't been at all since EQ2 launched. And this is nothing new. The raid guilds rarely, if ever, allow non-members to raid with them. And if they do, it's likely a training raid for new members and is an "old" raid (like a guild on my server who was running Labs and Deathtoll at 80 for training and letting non-raiders see the content).It would indeed be a warm day in Everfrost when a raid guild lets people tag along on a new content raid. And personally...I don't blame them. You don't know the content, thus you don't know what you need to do. And surprisingly enough...one or two clueless people is enough to wipe a raid.

[KBern]

<p>Its not even knowing the content...most people can be told a few directions and do fairly well...MOST.</p><p>Its the gear also, its the experience at raiding over grouping or soloing (yes, they are diffrent playstyles, not harder just different).</p><p>Is your gear a mix of treasured, master crafted, and legendary...and none from present raid zones?  Then you are a liability and will be dead every AOE.</p><p>How are your resists?  Can you get each one up to 10k self buffed?</p><p>How about your spells?  You have all masters and the rest adept 3's?</p><p>How about your AA's?  Are you raid spec'd?</p>

[Jehannum]

<p>To the OP, you have some options...</p><p>1. Suck it up, buttercup - you made your bed, and if you choose to remain in it that's nobody's fault but your own.  If you're not going to get it, resign yourself to that and quit giving yourself a headache.</p><p>2. Shop yourself to raid guilds - if you want the goodies more than you want to retain your ties to the current guild of friends, so be it.</p><p>3. Make some friends in those raiding guilds.  Obviously, it helps if you're not a tank.  Group with some of them when they have a spare spot.  Help them out with minor stuff; most people will feel beholden and guilty enough that you might score a few raid invites, prove yourself competent and increase your raiding profile to the point where others may actually hear about you.</p><p>4. Invite people to your guild.  Bear in mind that it may not be possible to entirely reconcile the requirements of a raiding guild with those of a smaller friends/family atmosphere, and you may still effectively be looking at the #1/#2 choice depending on how the rest of your guild reacts to the changes/your desire to raid.</p><p>Because ultimately most of the people here are right.  You don't group with these raiders, you don't raid with them, you don't support them in off-time or anything, so why should they punt a guy who's showed up to most of their raids in your favour?  Besides, as you've acknowledged, they're raid-geared, mythical-beweaponed and keyed to the zones - what do <b>you</b> offer <b>them</b> to offset your request that they hamstring their capability by including you?  Quid pro quo, Clarise.</p>

[Aurumn]

<cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote>... <p>Currenly, I have one option if i want to raid and that's to leave the guild that have become my family and friends over the past 4+ years. </p></blockquote><p>I'm not on Guk so I can't speak to your experience there, but I would think that getting your small guild to create (or join) an alliance of similarly minded guilds would be an option to accessing higher content. If you can organize it the nobody would need to leave their guild and you'd still get the help you need for raid purposes. Otherwise you might try bribing your way into an established raid force by paying for their repair bills if you cause a wipe. *JK* </p><p>If the larger guilds already have a regular, organized, fully staffed raid force they don't need extra help and truly have no obligation to cater to the masses. It would be a nice gesture, but far from an obligation.</p>

[KBern]

<p>lol yeah I didnt touch on the flagging issue....</p><p>How by chance will you even get into VP, or now you expect help to be backflagged?  Do you even understand the time it would take to flag someone for VP who has no flags at all yet?</p><p>I dont think you have any clue about most of this and just want some big red easy button to get your mythical.</p>

[gi]

You can't demand that High end Raid guilds take you along... Your best bet is to look for pickup raids on your server, get more members in your guild, start by  doing some of the x2 content in T7 (and city guild raids) for practise and move from there, make alliances with other smaller guilds that want to raid.

[Sprin]

<cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Its not even knowing the content...most people can be told a few directions and do fairly well...MOST.</p><p>Its the gear also, its the experience at raiding over grouping or soloing (yes, they are diffrent playstyles, not harder just different).</p><p>Is your gear a mix of treasured, master crafted, and legendary...and none from present raid zones?  Then you are a liability and will be dead every AOE.</p><p>How are your resists?  Can you get each one up to 10k self buffed?</p><p>How about your spells?  You have all masters and the rest adept 3's?</p><p>How about your AA's?  Are you raid spec'd?</p></blockquote><p>LOL, im sorry, what an arrogant [I cannot control my vocabulary].... you think your all high and mighty cuz you have a bit of fabled gear?  Let me ask you this big shot... did you start raiding with that gear? NO... you didnt, you started raiding with legendary / MC mixed.... and you got the gear from raiding... So saying that you have to have all that stuff to start out with is [I cannot control my vocabulary], plain and simple... get over yourself, your not that special just cuz you have a huge raid x 8 force that can roll zones super fast and get gear.  You started off raiding with non raid gear, so dont try and say that your all special cuz you have it now and that someone without raid gear will "wipe" your raid.... and "insta-die" from the AOEs... if you guys got through it the first time as an entire raid, then you "uber raid" squad with one or 2 people without raid gear wont bother your precious little raid timer at all...  </p><p>Let me guess... you had all raid gear to start with?   AHHEMM... **BULLSHVICK***.... even if your entire guild was fully raid geared otu in 70 gear, that gear is junk for the T8 raids, so therefore that argument is now outof the window....     So get off your high horse...   Raiding takes coordination yes, but each class has a job... and as long as you "uber leet raid force extroidinair" leaders can communicate, it wont be a problem...   </p><p>Anyways, to the OP......  Join the raid guild... earn your way to a raid spot if you want to go on the raids... quit your "leadership" role in a puny guild and join the raid guild so you can go on the raids, its that simple...  Send a tell to the leader and tell him your situation, and ask to join the guild so you can get a spot in the raids...  Is the guild banks on your lvl 21 guild that important? if so, then dont complain about not raiding.</p>

[Loolee]

<cite>Auttumn@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Its not even knowing the content...most people can be told a few directions and do fairly well...MOST.</p><p>Its the gear also, its the experience at raiding over grouping or soloing (yes, they are diffrent playstyles, not harder just different).</p><p>Is your gear a mix of treasured, master crafted, and legendary...and none from present raid zones?  Then you are a liability and will be dead every AOE.</p><p>How are your resists?  Can you get each one up to 10k self buffed?</p><p>How about your spells?  You have all masters and the rest adept 3's?</p><p>How about your AA's?  Are you raid spec'd?</p></blockquote><p>LOL, im sorry, what an arrogant [I cannot control my vocabulary].... you think your all high and mighty cuz you have a bit of fabled gear?  Let me ask you this big shot... did you start raiding with that gear? NO... you didnt, you started raiding with legendary / MC mixed.... and you got the gear from raiding... So saying that you have to have all that stuff to start out with is [I cannot control my vocabulary], plain and simple... get over yourself, your not that special just cuz you have a huge raid x 8 force that can roll zones super fast and get gear.  You started off raiding with non raid gear, so dont try and say that your all special cuz you have it now and that someone without raid gear will "wipe" your raid.... and "insta-die" from the AOEs... if you guys got through it the first time as an entire raid, then you "uber raid" squad with one or 2 people without raid gear wont bother your precious little raid timer at all...  </p><p>Let me guess... you had all raid gear to start with?   AHHEMM... **BULLSHVICK***.... even if your entire guild was fully raid geared otu in 70 gear, that gear is junk for the T8 raids, so therefore that argument is now outof the window....     So get off your high horse...   Raiding takes coordination yes, but each class has a job... and as long as you "uber leet raid force extroidinair" leaders can communicate, it wont be a problem...   </p></blockquote>I don't think he's being arrogant at all.  He's got some valid points and he's entitled to make them.  The OP is complaining about not being invited into raids so he can get his mythical epic weapon.  To get to that point one NEEDS to do all of those things.  I know, I'm just getting myself geared up so I can be more effective in my guild's raids.  And for me to do that, I had to leave the guild I was a part of for several years.  To see the end content you have to make some sacrifices and make the effort to get there.  It just doesn't happen because you think its the fair thing to do.  You have to work at it.  Just like real life.

[interstellarmatter]

<cite>Auttumn@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Its not even knowing the content...most people can be told a few directions and do fairly well...MOST.</p><p>Its the gear also, its the experience at raiding over grouping or soloing (yes, they are diffrent playstyles, not harder just different).</p><p>Is your gear a mix of treasured, master crafted, and legendary...and none from present raid zones?  Then you are a liability and will be dead every AOE.</p><p>How are your resists?  Can you get each one up to 10k self buffed?</p><p>How about your spells?  You have all masters and the rest adept 3's?</p><p>How about your AA's?  Are you raid spec'd?</p></blockquote><p>LOL, im sorry, what an arrogant [I cannot control my vocabulary].... you think your all high and mighty cuz you have a bit of fabled gear?  Let me ask you this big shot... did you start raiding with that gear? NO... you didnt, you started raiding with legendary / MC mixed.... and you got the gear from raiding... So saying that you have to have all that stuff to start out with is [I cannot control my vocabulary], plain and simple... get over yourself, your not that special just cuz you have a huge raid x 8 force that can roll zones super fast and get gear.  You started off raiding with non raid gear, so dont try and say that your all special cuz you have it now and that someone without raid gear will "wipe" your raid.... and "insta-die" from the AOEs... if you guys got through it the first time as an entire raid, then you "uber raid" squad with one or 2 people without raid gear wont bother your precious little raid timer at all...  </p><p>Let me guess... you had all raid gear to start with?   AHHEMM... **BULLSHVICK***.... even if your entire guild was fully raid geared otu in 70 gear, that gear is junk for the T8 raids, so therefore that argument is now outof the window....     So get off your high horse...   Raiding takes coordination yes, but each class has a job... and as long as you "uber leet raid force extroidinair" leaders can communicate, it wont be a problem...  </p></blockquote><p>What in the world are you saying?  This guy is complaining about wanting to raid in the more top tier raid zone. Sure you can start raiding in lesser gear but in places like PR.  </p><p>*so confused*</p>

[Ama]

<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Do you know how hard it is to do those raids with an unfamiliar force?  Inviting people outside of the guild is a mix for a very bad night.  They raid everynight together which is why they can clear those zones for their mythical.  What makes you think that they can do it without their normal team?  Heck, we tried to a different tank outside of the guild the other night and we got stuck after the first mob.</p><p>My advice, get your team up to speed and more members and clear it.  You'll have a great sense of accomplishment.</p></blockquote><p>Well he has a valid point, but again the point of the 2nd tier weapons being "Mythical" is the fact you earned them. </p><p>Even though i'm raiding ATM I may never get to see my Mythical and if that's the case so be it.  You have the option of getting your fabled version which is a very nice weapon.  However the mythical while more improved than the fabled version isn't the "end all" be all weapon.  This probably dissapoints some people, but i'm happy that it is done this way because if it wasn't and your epic was made out to be some super weapon it would create chaos.  </p><p>Try forming pickup raids starting out slow on zones.  Another option is to try to form an alliance raid with other individuals like yourself.  Right now i'm with an alliance raid on Kithicor which allows members in my guild to raid since we don't have the members to do a full on guild raid ourselves. </p>

[Windowlicker]

I can't see why they would be required to help you get anything.That being said, a number of these guilds didn't work for anything.  Just so you know, the EQ2 developers have a habit of feeding some raiding guilds exploits and strats for the raid encounters.So really, they didn't work for anything.

[Loolee]

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can't see why they would be required to help you get anything.That being said, a number of these guilds didn't work for anything.  Just so you know, the EQ2 developers have a habit of feeding some raiding guilds exploits and strats for the raid encounters.So really, they didn't work for anything.</blockquote>Oh please!  If you knew anything at all about the process you wouldn't say that.  Even LFG doesn't believe that <i>every</i> raiding guild has been hand fed that kind of information. 

[JmacF]

<p>Using mythical weapon was the wrong thing to say:  hell, I'm bottled necked on MC for the fabled version because the guild tank just isn't capable of handling that zone in itself. </p><p>Do i sacrafice my family so i can join a raid guild?  No.   I made that choice 4 years ago when i joined the game not to allow the addiction of the game to interfere with the time needed for a healthy happy family. </p><p>What i'm asking is why can't the raid guilds take the time to bring in people in my boat and teach them?   I was lucky enough to get in a few PU raids to Labs and Deathtoll when the cap was 70 to learn them enough to start some of my own pick up raids.   </p><p>i guess they are scared that they will have to spend a few plat to fix their uber armor for a few wipes if they invite the outsider into their precious static raid.</p>

[Bledso]

<p>The only sensical answer in this entire thread to the OP was to look for alliances to raid with.</p><p>On AB in Shadow Company this is exactly what was done.    We have 2 guild associations and look for events on their calandars.</p><p>In repsonse to one who started spouting do you have fabled - this that and everythng else - if they can't raid as is and if your requirment is to force that - how do you expect people to get those items anyways.</p><p>Go looking for alliances and that is your best option.</p>

[Loolee]

<cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Using mythical weapon was the wrong thing to say:  hell, I'm bottled necked on MC for the fabled version because the guild tank just isn't capable of handling that zone in itself. </p><p>Do i sacrafice my family so i can join a raid guild?  No.   I made that choice 4 years ago when i joined the game not to allow the addiction of the game to interfere with the time needed for a healthy happy family. </p><p>What i'm asking is why can't the raid guilds take the time to bring in people in my boat and teach them?   I was lucky enough to get in a few PU raids to Labs and Deathtoll when the cap was 70 to learn them enough to start some of my own pick up raids.   </p><p>i guess they are scared that they will have to spend a few plat to fix their uber armor for a few wipes if they invite the outsider into their precious static raid.</p></blockquote>No, they are probably already working with their own people.  The ones that add value (status, tradeskill services, comradeship) to their own guilds.  It takes time to get a raid force geared up and trained to work together consistently.  You need to listen to all the other posters in this thread, build the relationships with like-minded people and work towards your own goals.  You can't just piggy-back along with another group of people and expect it all to be handed to you.

[interstellarmatter]

<cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Using mythical weapon was the wrong thing to say:  hell, I'm bottled necked on MC for the fabled version because the guild tank just isn't capable of handling that zone in itself. </p><p>Do i sacrafice my family so i can join a raid guild?  No.   I made that choice 4 years ago when i joined the game not to allow the addiction of the game to interfere with the time needed for a healthy happy family. </p><p>What i'm asking is why can't the raid guilds take the time to bring in people in my boat and teach them?   I was lucky enough to get in a few PU raids to Labs and Deathtoll when the cap was 70 to learn them enough to start some of my own pick up raids.   </p><p>i guess they are scared that they will have to spend a few plat to fix their uber armor for a few wipes if they invite the outsider into their precious static raid.</p></blockquote><p>I guess that I don't understand what you are getting at.  You may think that their rules suck..but it is their guild.  Good thing about this game is Sony don't micro police the community.  People can play in their own little world.</p><p>Are you posting to get Sony to demand guilds open up their raiding ranks?</p>

[JmacF]

<p>Who said anything about piggy backing?   Understand there is a % of people out there that wants to join you as we feel that you are the teachers and we are the students. </p>

[Loolee]

<cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Who said anything about piggy backing?   Understand there is a % of people out there that wants to join you as we feel that you are the teachers and we are the students. </p></blockquote>And what exactly are you offering them in return?  All your status goes to your own family guild.  WHY should they open up their ranks to you, a virtual stranger when they can take one of their own along? 

[Pins]

<cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>lol yeah I didnt touch on the flagging issue....</p><p>How by chance will you even get into VP, or now you expect help to be backflagged?  Do you even understand the time it would take to flag someone for VP who has no flags at all yet?</p><p>I dont think you have any clue about most of this and just want some big red easy button to get your mythical.</p></blockquote>You act like raiding is super hard and takes forever.  Getting Flagged for VP takes a total time of 2 hours.  That's it!  And you're flagged.<div></div><div>But anyway, a raid guild raids for its guild.  They don't raid for you.  If you offer them something in return, they'll raid for you, like say 600p or more for an update in VP for your mythical.  You know, plat can get you pretty far.</div>

[Verlaine]

<p>There are many reasons why high end raid guilds will not take extra ppl.</p><p>A few are lack of experiance, inferior gear, too many of one class.  Not to mention the hard work that they put in to get to the point where they can get their mythicals.  Another reason is that not all people in the guild currently have their mythical weapons.</p><p>If you are not a raider the fabled version of the item should be good enough to handle all group/solo content anyways.</p>

[KBern]

<cite>Auttumn@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Its not even knowing the content...most people can be told a few directions and do fairly well...MOST.</p><p>Its the gear also, its the experience at raiding over grouping or soloing (yes, they are diffrent playstyles, not harder just different).</p><p>Is your gear a mix of treasured, master crafted, and legendary...and none from present raid zones?  Then you are a liability and will be dead every AOE.</p><p>How are your resists?  Can you get each one up to 10k self buffed?</p><p>How about your spells?  You have all masters and the rest adept 3's?</p><p>How about your AA's?  Are you raid spec'd?</p></blockquote><p>LOL, im sorry, what an arrogant [I cannot control my vocabulary].... you think your all high and mighty cuz you have a bit of fabled gear?  Let me ask you this big shot... did you start raiding with that gear? NO... you didnt, you started raiding with legendary / MC mixed.... and you got the gear from raiding... So saying that you have to have all that stuff to start out with is [I cannot control my vocabulary], plain and simple... get over yourself, your not that special just cuz you have a huge raid x 8 force that can roll zones super fast and get gear.  You started off raiding with non raid gear, so dont try and say that your all special cuz you have it now and that someone without raid gear will "wipe" your raid.... and "insta-die" from the AOEs... if you guys got through it the first time as an entire raid, then you "uber raid" squad with one or 2 people without raid gear wont bother your precious little raid timer at all...  </p><p>Let me guess... you had all raid gear to start with?   AHHEMM... **BULLSHVICK***.... even if your entire guild was fully raid geared otu in 70 gear, that gear is junk for the T8 raids, so therefore that argument is now outof the window....     So get off your high horse...   Raiding takes coordination yes, but each class has a job... and as long as you "uber leet raid force extroidinair" leaders can communicate, it wont be a problem...   </p><p>Anyways, to the OP......  Join the raid guild... earn your way to a raid spot if you want to go on the raids... quit your "leadership" role in a puny guild and join the raid guild so you can go on the raids, its that simple...  Send a tell to the leader and tell him your situation, and ask to join the guild so you can get a spot in the raids...  Is the guild banks on your lvl 21 guild that important? if so, then dont complain about not raiding.</p></blockquote><p>Um no, I mean to survive in VP yor character needed to have some progression to get to that point.  Your are in ignorant [I cannot control my vocabulary].  I can flame people right back, but bottom line I am posting simple facts about raiding requirements for someone wanting to succeed in the VP where you need to go to get your mythicals.</p><p>I in no way said the person cannot raid.</p><p>I am sorry you are ignorant of what it takes to beat VP level mobs, but facts are facts.  Please try to read next time before you let your petty raider hate get the worst of you.  </p>

[KBern]

<cite>Pinski wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>lol yeah I didnt touch on the flagging issue....</p><p>How by chance will you even get into VP, or now you expect help to be backflagged?  Do you even understand the time it would take to flag someone for VP who has no flags at all yet?</p><p>I dont think you have any clue about most of this and just want some big red easy button to get your mythical.</p></blockquote>You act like raiding is super hard and takes forever.  Getting Flagged for VP takes a total time of 2 hours.  That's it!  And you're flagged. <div></div><div>But anyway, a raid guild raids for its guild.  They don't raid for you.  If you offer them something in return, they'll raid for you, like say 600p or more for an update in VP for your mythical.  You know, plat can get you pretty far.</div></blockquote><p>Pinksi, please you are aware of raiding, now look at the what the OP is saying.</p><p>Helping one person is doable, but are you ready to use your guild to help every lvl 80 get flagged for VP, beat the mobs they need pre-VP then roll through VP for every person who wants it out the goodness of your little ole heart?</p><p>Yes one person can be flagged in one night, but when that door opens, where does it stop?</p>

[Zorastiz]

<p>On AB there is   <a href="http://eq2.mmo-league.org/index.php" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://eq2.mmo-league.org/index.php</a></p><p>Great way to get things done if your guild isn't yet capable.</p><p>EDIT-Had wrong link.</p>

[Pins]

<cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pinski wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>lol yeah I didnt touch on the flagging issue....</p><p>How by chance will you even get into VP, or now you expect help to be backflagged?  Do you even understand the time it would take to flag someone for VP who has no flags at all yet?</p><p>I dont think you have any clue about most of this and just want some big red easy button to get your mythical.</p></blockquote>You act like raiding is super hard and takes forever.  Getting Flagged for VP takes a total time of 2 hours.  That's it!  And you're flagged. <div></div><div>But anyway, a raid guild raids for its guild.  They don't raid for you.  If you offer them something in return, they'll raid for you, like say 600p or more for an update in VP for your mythical.  You know, plat can get you pretty far.</div></blockquote><p>Pinksi, please you are aware of raiding, now look at the what the OP is saying.</p><p>Helping one person is doable, but are you ready to use your guild to help every lvl 80 get flagged for VP, beat the mobs they need pre-VP then roll through VP for every person who wants it out the goodness of your little ole heart?</p><p>Yes one person can be flagged in one night, but when that door opens, where does it stop?</p></blockquote>For the right price I'd flag an entire group of people for VP in 1 night!<div></div><div>But your statements about gear are just dumb.  You don't need to worry about resists at all in VP, you can get all the gear needed to clear VP from the previous expansion's raid content.  I think the OP is very selfish and expects everybody to do stuff for him, but that's not my point of countering your points.  You act like raiding is hard, news flash, it's not.  It just requires an organized group of ~26 players who show up daily at the same time with the same goal and they can click the buttons.</div>

[Killerbee3000]

<cite></cite>arghh double post... ignore this one

[Killerbee3000]

<cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This post is an opinion of my own towards the Guk server.</p><p>Congratulations to the guilds that have the members to get their mythical weapons.  My small guild will not be able to get theirs because we are shut out of the high level guild raids because when we ask if we can raid with them, we get an emphasized "NO" in response. </p><p>It be a warm day in Everfrost when i see NPU, Troops of Doom, Keepers of Realm, OWG, etc...  actually say "Why don't we split our normal guild raid up and invite smaller guilds to play with us." </p><p>My guild has maybe 6 full time players in it and 12 total.   We are very casual players, who occassionally like to jump into a raid and learn the zones.    However, everytime I ask someone if i can join their raid I get a tell back saying, "We don't allow people outside our guild to raid with us."   Or I hear, "Stand by and if we have room we'll invite you, " only to know that the response will be, "Sorry, we filled it with our guild members." </p><p>You should be ashamed of yourselfs for being that greedy that you can't allow those of us who work 65 - 70 hours a week a chance to obtain the pleasure of raiding one the high end raid zones. </p><p>Currenly, I have one option if i want to raid and that's to leave the guild that have become my family and friends over the past 4+ years. </p></blockquote>Raid guilds Greed? How about we turn it around and name it non raiders greed? why? they left their guilds to start / join a raiding guild, they constantly improve themself, they keep trying and trying, they spent thousands of plats for masters... now you come and ask for the same reward? then why should you not have to leave behind your casual guild and join a raiding guild just like them?Some other reasons why they dont let you (or others) tag along:1: 1 Person can wipe a raid.2: Are you flagged for the zones? 3: Are your resists high enough?4: Do you do enough dps? 5: They would have to explain the strats (which these days go beyond tanks and spank) every time in detail to prevent point 1 from happening.6: They fear you would use their strat.7: Someone from their Guild would have to sit out but doesnt want to.8: they think you dont deserve it because they have invested far more into the game than you and want to keep the mythicals away from you.

[KBern]

<p>No where did I say it was hard.  On the contrary I said most can raid with no issues if they can follow directions, but without certain requirements people become a detriment to the raid.  I even said it is no harder than soloing or grouping, just different.  </p><p>I guess your guild doesnt care about gear, spell quality, AA's, or anything I posted...my bad...I must be off and so must other guilds that expect minimum requirements to be met.</p>

[Mirdo]

I'm sure some people are genuinely surprised when they find out some raiders raid together because, just like casual / family guilds, they have fun together. The only difference being that our fun consists of beating raid mobs. Why would we want to invite people we don't know along with us when we take on some of the hardest content in the (instanced) game? Especially if our full roster is available?Our guild members are contributing masters, status, loot and their time to the guild. Why would we want to invite people that have contributed nothing? In particular zones like VP require time invested and plat spent to learn the encounters. What incentive is there to 'carry' someone we don't know, has not experienced any of the joy or pain to the beat encounters and has not gone the extra mile when required to further our guild?This subject of selling Mythical updates was actually raised in our guild just so we knew where all the officers stood. Every single one was strongly against letting non-members join our guild for Mythical updates. I don't assume non-members would be the total liability some people are suggesting, that would depend on the class and their ability. I still wouldn't want some random player along with us just because we can carry them or they have the plat to pay for an update.(Runnyeye players: tells to Mirdo with any ranger masters you might wish contribute towards getting your mythical kthx <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )j/k <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[JmacF]

<p>How am i selfish by asking for help and getting denied every time i do to raid?</p><p>Remember the first time you went through nek castle and went oh my god.. how do people finish this?   Effort, time, patience and teaching to the point now where you can take a newb group through it blindfolded and show them exactly how you go through it.    that is what is missing in the high content raids. </p>

[Barakuz]

<p>So you have been on a few pickup raids in T7 DT etc... and now you expect a high end raiding guild to handhold you through T8 raid zones to show you the ropes. Do you really feel that a  single run through PR, Kor-Sha or VP is going to teach you anything.</p><p>If you want to raid, start with your family guild doing :</p><p>x 2 Epic Mobs</p><p>Pickup Raids for T7 content</p><p>Form a raid alliance with another family guild</p><p>or</p><p>Leave your family guild and join a raiding guild.</p><p>With any of these options you will learn about raid encounters, class capabilities, strats and how to improve the overall raid force. For T7 encounters / raid zones there is loads of information and strats online, so it's not like you have to start from scratch. Raiding requires investment, both time effort...if your not willing to put forth either, don't expect to get the rewards that other raiders have strived for.</p><p>good luck</p><p>Bara</p>

[Mirdo]

<cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>How am i selfish by asking for help and getting denied every time i do to raid?</p><p>Remember the first time you went through nek castle and went oh my god.. how do people finish this?   Effort, time, patience and teaching to the point now where you can take a newb group through it blindfolded and show them exactly how you go through it.    that is what is missing in the high content raids.</p></blockquote>Your original post says you have been denied raid slots - not that you have been denied help. You don't need to be in a raid to get help - you can post here or on flames and get information.I would ask again, why would a guild that play together regularly and have put in hundreds / thousands of combined hours into raiding want to take along somebody that has given nothing? Out of pity?As others have suggested try a raid alliance or do as I had to. 2 years ago I left a small friends and family guild because like you I wanted to experience the raid content. I kept toons in the old guild and played with them when I wasn't actively raiding. If you really are friends, they will understand and all that will change is a little less grouping and your guild tag.

[Korpo]

Why should a good guild care if you have your mythical or not? Why should they spend any time or effort to get it for you? Last I checked, NPU wasn't the Salvation Army.

[Rqron]

<cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This post is an opinion of my own towards the Guk server.</p><p>Congratulations to the guilds that have the members to get their mythical weapons.  My small guild will not be able to get theirs because we are shut out of the high level guild raids because when we ask if we can raid with them, we get an emphasized "NO" in response. </p><p>It be a warm day in Everfrost when i see NPU, Troops of Doom, Keepers of Realm, OWG, etc...  actually say "Why don't we split our normal guild raid up and invite smaller guilds to play with us." </p><p>My guild has maybe 6 full time players in it and 12 total.   We are very casual players, who occassionally like to jump into a raid and learn the zones.    However, everytime I ask someone if i can join their raid I get a tell back saying, "We don't allow people outside our guild to raid with us."   Or I hear, "Stand by and if we have room we'll invite you, " only to know that the response will be, "Sorry, we filled it with our guild members." </p><p>You should be ashamed of yourselfs for being that greedy that you can't allow those of us who work 65 - 70 hours a week a chance to obtain the pleasure of raiding one the high end raid zones. </p><p>Currenly, I have one option if i want to raid and that's to leave the guild that have become my family and friends over the past 4+ years. </p></blockquote>Well, at least they did not asked you to pay 50P a piece for the "privilege" to raid with them...they are not greedy they are just elitist snobs..J.C.

[ThE_GuN]

Validus did <a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=385195" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">open raids</a> once a week back in T7 where people could update their soulfire weapons. The nature of the mythicals and the current state of the expansion makes this alot harder to do, but they might start doing those again in the future... (99% sure it will never be VP tho...)

[Dasein]

I wonder how many of these guilds would be willing to trade their services for some cash? I don't believe that selling services violates the EULA, and such an arrangement serves the needs of both parties. Thus, paying for the service seems like a sensible option, same with any other service we pay for these days.

[Rashaak]

<cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This post is an opinion of my own towards the Guk server.</p><p>Congratulations to the guilds that have the members to get their mythical weapons.  My small guild will not be able to get theirs because we are shut out of the high level guild raids because when we ask if we can raid with them, we get an emphasized "NO" in response. </p><p>It be a warm day in Everfrost when i see NPU, Troops of Doom, Keepers of Realm, OWG, etc...  actually say "Why don't we split our normal guild raid up and invite smaller guilds to play with us." </p><p>My guild has maybe 6 full time players in it and 12 total.   We are very casual players, who occassionally like to jump into a raid and learn the zones.    However, everytime I ask someone if i can join their raid I get a tell back saying, "We don't allow people outside our guild to raid with us."   Or I hear, "Stand by and if we have room we'll invite you, " only to know that the response will be, "Sorry, we filled it with our guild members." </p><p>You should be ashamed of yourselfs for being that greedy that you can't allow those of us who work 65 - 70 hours a week a chance to obtain the pleasure of raiding one the high end raid zones. </p><p>Currenly, I have one option if i want to raid and that's to leave the guild that have become my family and friends over the past 4+ years. </p></blockquote>Sounds to me, you should start a raid alliance...

[ecoskii]

<p>aw go on... transfer this thread to eq2flames so raid guilds can have a proper go at it... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>I really think all raid guilds should be turned into carebear associations and tag/baby-sit random PU groups to get their Mythical updates otherwise they lose an inch off their e-peens each week <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Personally - once you have all the instance crap all that is left is building your guild to be able to clear tougher content.  I'd just love all our hard work over the last few months getting a casual guild VP flagged negated.  I have no idea how much longer it will take us to get mythicals or whether we will ever manage it before the next level cap but what else is going to keep me logging on??</p>

[Dasein]

<cite>ecoskii wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>aw go on... transfer this thread to eq2flames so raid guilds can have a proper go at it... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></p></blockquote>Is it healthy for the game to have such extreme stratification in play-styles?There's a reason raiding is on it's way out in MMO design.

[Mirdo]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>I wonder how many of these guilds would be willing to trade their services for some cash? I don't believe that selling services violates the EULA, and such an arrangement serves the needs of both parties. Thus, paying for the service seems like a sensible option, same with any other service we pay for these days. </blockquote>Price points on a server by server basis would be interesting to see. As would potential price wars on servers where more than one guild is capable of delivering the service - unless there was a healthy dose of price fixing involved.

[Sawia]

<cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You should be ashamed of yourselfs for being that greedy </p></blockquote>Im sorry.. but ... lol. You should be ashamed of yourself for wanting a free ride like that! Do the work, it makes you feel much better in the end.

[zorax15]

<cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>How am i selfish by asking for help and getting denied every time i do to raid?</p><p>Remember the first time you went through nek castle and went oh my god.. how do people finish this?   Effort, time, patience and teaching to the point now where you can take a newb group through it blindfolded and show them exactly how you go through it.    that is what is missing in the high content raids. </p></blockquote>You are selfish because you demand other people to get things done for you. Help is provided by almost all HC guild members especially on forums by answering questions if someone needs some hints in figuring out a script.The difference between them and you is two things. 1) You are not interested in raiding itself but just in an particular item and want others to spend their time to get this for you. This is Greed2) People asking on boards for help on figuring out s cripts are polite and you are not.

[Argyuile]

<cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>How am i selfish by asking for help and getting denied every time i do to raid?</p><p>Remember the first time you went through nek castle and went oh my god.. how do people finish this?   Effort, time, patience and teaching to the point now where you can take a newb group through it blindfolded and show them exactly how you go through it.    that is what is missing in the high content raids. </p></blockquote>You feel entitled to get something other people have earned.   You can get the same thing yourself.  People have told you how above.Lets say next door neighbor was a contractor and he saved up his money and used his know how to make himself a nice addition to his house.     Your saying that he is greedy if he doesn't come over to your house use his time, his know how and his money to build you a nice addition to your house also.  

[Hoppit]

<cite>ecoskii wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>I really think all raid guilds should be turned into carebear associations and tag/baby-sit random PU groups to get their Mythical updates otherwise they lose an inch off their e-peens each week <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote><p>I LOLed.</p><p>Seriously though, to the OP: You can't seriously suggest that you be given essentially for free (and in a raid guild, time invested for helping guildies get gear > all) what others have invested heavily to get. That said, you would do well to consider creating a raid alliance or make part of your guild a raiding force. Don't have the time to invest for that? Well, if you don't have the time, then how in the name of all that's holy would you have the time to gear/flag/purchase master I's to even be ready for VP for your flags...?</p>

[JmacF]

<p>My final comment on this post: </p><p>High end raid guilds carry a position of honor on each server.   This post was meant for the high end guilds to take a minute and realize that some of the small guilds hold them as the celebrities of the servers.    I personally respect and admire everything that the guild raids accomplish.   Maybe you do realize that your the celebs of the server and the cold shoulders you give are justified because if we all were celebs then nobody would be.   But the next time someone asks you if you have room in your raid, take a minute to look around and ask if this person generally wants to take part because he is thinking about leaving his family guild to be a member of your guild.   Don't give him an immediate "No, we only allow guild members" because that person your saying no to could be the one who cuts the amount of time it takes to run through VP down 10 minutes.   he may be the one you are missing to make those mobs easier to pursue.    </p><p>Those of us not in the high end raid guilds are not as stupid as you may think when it comes to playing our character.    We may just be the one that your guild is looking for in a player and a fellow gamer for the current expansion and future ones. </p>

[Jaxl]

<cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote>You should be ashamed of yourselfs for being that greedy that you can't allow those of us who work 65 - 70 hours a week a chance to obtain the pleasure of raiding one the high end raid zones. <p>Currenly, I have one option if i want to raid and that's to leave the guild that have become my family and friends over the past 4+ years. </p></blockquote>Sounds like your just making a choice not to raid..

[Guy De Alsace]

<p>Why would a non-raider need a mythical epic? From what little I've seen of them they look to be wasted on anything but raids anyway...</p><p>Besides, it would be the equivalent of Manchester United in the FA Cup final inviting Mrs Miggins the tea-lady on the field to play for them if they said just anyone could join...and thats speaking as a total raid noob and all round slacker that I am.</p>

[ThE_GuN]

<cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Don't give him an immediate "No, we only allow guild members" because that person your saying no to could be the one who cuts the amount of time it takes to run through VP down 10 minutes.   he may be the one you are missing to make those mobs easier to pursue.    </p><p>Those of us not in the high end raid guilds are not as stupid as you may think when it comes to playing our character. We may just be the one that your guild is looking for in a player and a fellow gamer for the current expansion and future ones. </p></blockquote>Um... you might not be as stupid as you think we think you are (casual players vs raiders) but you do lack some insight in your comment; YOU CANNOT GO TO VP BEFORE HAVING BEATEN THE OTHER ZONES FIRST, the game wont let you zone into VP before you'v done Chamber of Destiny, you wont get into Chamber of Destiny before doing Venril and Overking... And for the record, I dont think casual players are dumb, I have loads of friends who dont raid.

[StormCinder]

<cite>StormCinder wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I may be incorrect, but I think SOE added an option where you can recruit new members to your guild and try to get enough folks in it to conduct the raids that you feel shut out of.  I will check the forums to find out when this options was added.</p><p>I don't think blaming other guilds is appropriate, though.</p><p>SC</p></blockquote><p>Ahhh....here it is.  Finally (5 pages later) found it.  Hmmm...odd...it appears that the ability to invite others to your guild has been part of the whole guild program all along!  Wow...who'd a thunk it. ?</p><p>SC</p>

[Rqron]

<cite>Killerbee3000 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This post is an opinion of my own towards the Guk server.</p><p>Congratulations to the guilds that have the members to get their mythical weapons.  My small guild will not be able to get theirs because we are shut out of the high level guild raids because when we ask if we can raid with them, we get an emphasized "NO" in response. </p><p>It be a warm day in Everfrost when i see NPU, Troops of Doom, Keepers of Realm, OWG, etc...  actually say "Why don't we split our normal guild raid up and invite smaller guilds to play with us." </p><p>My guild has maybe 6 full time players in it and 12 total.   We are very casual players, who occassionally like to jump into a raid and learn the zones.    However, everytime I ask someone if i can join their raid I get a tell back saying, "We don't allow people outside our guild to raid with us."   Or I hear, "Stand by and if we have room we'll invite you, " only to know that the response will be, "Sorry, we filled it with our guild members." </p><p>You should be ashamed of yourselfs for being that greedy that you can't allow those of us who work 65 - 70 hours a week a chance to obtain the pleasure of raiding one the high end raid zones. </p><p>Currenly, I have one option if i want to raid and that's to leave the guild that have become my family and friends over the past 4+ years. </p></blockquote>Raid guilds Greed? How about we turn it around and name it non raiders greed? why? they left their guilds to start / join a raiding guild, they constantly improve themself, they keep trying and trying,<b> they spent thousands of plats for masters... </b>now you come and ask for the same reward? then why should you not have to leave behind your casual guild and join a raiding guild just like them?Some other reasons why they dont let you (or others) tag along:<b>1: 1 Person can wipe a raid.2: Are you flagged for the zones? 3: Are your resists high enough?4: </b><b>Do you do enough dps? 5: </b><b>They would have to explain the strats (which these days go beyond tanks and spank) every time in detail to prevent point 1 from happening.6: They fear you would use their strat.7: Someone from their Guild would have to sit out but doesnt want to.8: </b>they think you dont deserve it because they have invested far more into the game than you and want to keep the mythicals away from you.</blockquote>They spend thousends of plats for masters..yeah right some of them can't barely afford to pay for repairs and are starved for masters in T8. Ohh puleeeeze tell that sob story to a 5 year old he may believe you. Is his DPS high enough?..who cares it's one person so the fight takes 5 seconds longer bahhh the sky is falling, the almighty parser GOD will suspend the accounts because they are a tad low..that is some of the biggest BS I have seen so far in this tread and there is quite a bit here. They have to explain the strats...bahhhh choke, choke..gawd...raiding is so hard they need to spend more then 20 seconds on vent or TS to say hey you all know what to do we where here 40 times before and the guy we take along you go over there into the corner and target through XX ohh  gimme a break. I have been to several T8 pickup raids and am not with a raiding guild.or all twinked out ..but it is not that much harder then T7 just  different...  The only thing you are right is point #8 ..they think you don't deserve it because they are elitist snobs that think just because they spend more time in game then with family in RL,  and  push buttons add nausea  it makes them better then you...I have news, they are not..they only think they are because they spend so much time raiding they don't have a social life and so this is all they have and so they try to protect that little empire against all outsiders.  Most (not all) hard core raiders I have met person to person from EQ1 and some from EQ2 where RL losers and social outcasts. They have they're little fantasy of being better to protect because in RL..well they have nothing and the "game" is they're way of happiness....a sorry bunch really.J.C.

[interstellarmatter]

<p>We don't take people outside of our guild on raids.  We just casually raid 3 nights a week.  </p><p>Are you saying that guilds shouldn't be able to make rules on how they conduct business?  They told you no because...well...they didn't want to take you.  That's their business.  </p><p>Why you chose to come here and try to make some sort of drama about it is beyond me.  Other than drama, what else did you expect to gain from it posting it here?</p>

[Rqron]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ecoskii wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>aw go on... transfer this thread to eq2flames so raid guilds can have a proper go at it... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></p></blockquote>Is it healthy for the game to have such extreme stratification in play-styles?There's a reason raiding is on it's way out in MMO design. </blockquote>And good riddanceJ.C.

[ThE_GuN]

<cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Killerbee3000 wrote:</cite><cite></cite>I have been to several T8 pickup raids and am not with a raiding guild.or all twinked out ..but it is not that much harder then T7 just different...</blockquote>I'm sorry to inform you that the T8 zones do actualy get a little harder as you move up along the line, there is a reason that alot fewer guilds kill Venril than finish Protectors Realm...

[Loolee]

Most <strike>raid</strike> guilds I know of, have an application process on their forums.  If you are truly interested in joining their guild, then an application is in order.  No one says that you HAVE to join that guild if you find that it isn't your cup of tea.  But, if you want to be taken seriously, then you also need to take the first steps toward committing to the guild in question. You can't have it both ways.  Either, you put in the time, and build your own guild with your casual/family members included or you follow the rules of these "exalted" guilds and follow the rules they put forth. 

[KBern]

<p>I am amazed at the amount of bitter people who hate raiders for no reason why so ever than their own whiny self entitled beliefs.</p><p>Rgron just won the total nonsense award for having no clue.  You are a very sad bitter person who honestly believes that drivel you just posted?</p><p>Yes, sadly everyone in my guild has no life, sits in our collective parents basement, and wipes our cheeto stained fingers on our unwashed darth vader t-shirts...</p><p>I know, lets stereotype everyone in the game because obviously what you accomplish is a clear indicator of the amount of life you have!</p>

[Mirdo]

<cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Killerbee3000 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This post is an opinion of my own towards the Guk server.</p><p>Congratulations to the guilds that have the members to get their mythical weapons.  My small guild will not be able to get theirs because we are shut out of the high level guild raids because when we ask if we can raid with them, we get an emphasized "NO" in response. </p><p>It be a warm day in Everfrost when i see NPU, Troops of Doom, Keepers of Realm, OWG, etc...  actually say "Why don't we split our normal guild raid up and invite smaller guilds to play with us." </p><p>My guild has maybe 6 full time players in it and 12 total.   We are very casual players, who occassionally like to jump into a raid and learn the zones.    However, everytime I ask someone if i can join their raid I get a tell back saying, "We don't allow people outside our guild to raid with us."   Or I hear, "Stand by and if we have room we'll invite you, " only to know that the response will be, "Sorry, we filled it with our guild members." </p><p>You should be ashamed of yourselfs for being that greedy that you can't allow those of us who work 65 - 70 hours a week a chance to obtain the pleasure of raiding one the high end raid zones. </p><p>Currenly, I have one option if i want to raid and that's to leave the guild that have become my family and friends over the past 4+ years. </p></blockquote>Raid guilds Greed? How about we turn it around and name it non raiders greed? why? they left their guilds to start / join a raiding guild, they constantly improve themself, they keep trying and trying,<b> they spent thousands of plats for masters... </b>now you come and ask for the same reward? then why should you not have to leave behind your casual guild and join a raiding guild just like them?Some other reasons why they dont let you (or others) tag along:<b>1: 1 Person can wipe a raid.2: Are you flagged for the zones? 3: Are your resists high enough?4: </b><b>Do you do enough dps? 5: </b><b>They would have to explain the strats (which these days go beyond tanks and spank) every time in detail to prevent point 1 from happening.6: They fear you would use their strat.7: Someone from their Guild would have to sit out but doesnt want to.8: </b>they think you dont deserve it because they have invested far more into the game than you and want to keep the mythicals away from you.</blockquote>They spend thousends of plats for masters..yeah right some of them can't barely afford to pay for repairs and are starved for masters in T8. Ohh puleeeeze tell that sob story to a 5 year old he may believe you. Is his DPS high enough?..who cares it's one person so the fight takes 5 seconds longer bahhh the sky is falling, the almighty parser GOD will suspend the accounts because they are a tad low..that is some of the biggest BS I have seen so far in this tread and there is quite a bit here. They have to explain the strats...bahhhh choke, choke..gawd...raiding is so hard they need to spend more then 20 seconds on vent or TS to say hey you all know what to do we where here 40 times before and the guy we take along you go over there into the corner and target through XX ohh  gimme a break. I have been to several T8 pickup raids and am not with a raiding guild.or all twinked out ..but it is not that much harder then T7 just  different...  The only thing you are right is point #8 ..they think you don't deserve it because they are elitist snobs that think just because they spend more time in game then with family in RL,  and  push buttons add nausea  it makes them better then you...I have news, they are not..they only think they are because they spend so much time raiding they don't have a social life and so this is all they have and so they try to protect that little empire against all outsiders.  Most (not all) hard core raiders I have met person to person from EQ1 and some from EQ2 where RL losers and social outcasts. They have they're little fantasy of being better to protect because in RL..well they have nothing and the "game" is they're way of happiness....a sorry bunch really.J.C.</blockquote>It's odd because most of the raiders I actually know in game don't make sweeping generalisations about a playstyle they don't advocate. Neither to they attempt to draw inferences about the quality of life a person experiences based on how they play a game. In fact, I don't know many that would be that rude or ill-informed. Some can even construct paragraphs too. Raiding the high end and able to communicate - amazing!I still haven't seen a good reason posted here as to why exactly a guild should exclude it's own members that may have been contributing for years, from an activity they specifically joined that guild to enjoy, just so that a random player can 'have a go'.

[Rqron]

<cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am amazed at the amount of bitter people who hate raiders for no reason why so ever than their own whiny self entitled beliefs.</p><p>Rgron just won the total nonsense award for having no clue.  You are a very sad bitter person who honestly believes that drivel you just posted?</p><p>Yes, sadly everyone in my guild has no life, sits in our collective parents basement, and wipes our cheeto stained fingers on our unwashed darth vader t-shirts...</p><p>I know, lets stereotype everyone in the game because obviously what you accomplish is a clear indicator of the amount of life you have!</p></blockquote>Did I said everyone? Learn to read and comprehend, I said most ..not all..maybe you are the exception..or maybe you just pretend you are... you know the old saying...he who protests loudest...No, I really do NOT hate hardcore raiders... I pity them.J.C.

[Korpo]

<cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote>This post was meant for the high end guilds to take a minute and realize that some of the small guilds hold them as the celebrities of the servers...</blockquote>Let me know how expecting celebrities to do things for you and give you things works out, I have some laundry that needs done and I think Jessica Alba would be perfect for the job.<blockquote>Don't give him an immediate "No, we only allow guild members" because that person your saying no to could be the one who cuts the amount of time it takes to run through VP down 10 minutes.   he may be the one you are missing to make those mobs easier to pursue.<p>Those of us not in the high end raid guilds are not as stupid as you may think when it comes to playing our character.    We may just be the one that your guild is looking for in a player and a fellow gamer for the current expansion and future ones.</p></blockquote>If you think you're better than someone in the uberguild, then you should try apping to the uberguild. Guilds will often replace members if someone better comes along.

[Kellin]

<p>I took piano lessons when I was 6.  Therefore, I deserve to headline at Carnegie Hall.</p><p>Jeez, who are you to think you deserve everything in the game?  In order to win (get mythical epic), you have to play (do all the steps leading up to it).  If those steps involve grouping with 23 other people and practicing fairly rigid discipline and doing lots and lots of other gameplay beforehand, then wow golly gee, that's how it's done.  If all you want is a shiny thing to wave around without doing all the work, I'd suggest you go to Toys 'R Us and buy a sparkly wand.</p><p>Or, conversely, transfer to Perma and come up with 1000pp.  Now that's what I call raid guild greed.</p><p>How bad do you want it, anyway?</p>

[Gaige]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>There's a reason raiding is on it's way out in MMO design. </blockquote>In your PvP dream world, but WoW shows that raiding is here to stay.

[Korpo]

<cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Did I said everyone? Learn to read and comprehend, I said most ..not all..maybe you are the exception..or maybe you just pretend you are... you know the old saying...he who protests loudest...No, I really do NOT hate hardcore raiders... I pity them.J.C.</blockquote>Says the person with no real raid experience. Most hardcore raid guilds don't require all that much of a time investment, they just require focus and dedication during that time.

[Rqron]

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>There's a reason raiding is on it's way out in MMO design. </blockquote>In your PvP dream world, but WoW shows that raiding is here to stay.</blockquote>Then go play WoWJ.C.

[KBern]

<cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am amazed at the amount of bitter people who hate raiders for no reason why so ever than their own whiny self entitled beliefs.</p><p>Rgron just won the total nonsense award for having no clue.  You are a very sad bitter person who honestly believes that drivel you just posted?</p><p>Yes, sadly everyone in my guild has no life, sits in our collective parents basement, and wipes our cheeto stained fingers on our unwashed darth vader t-shirts...</p><p>I know, lets stereotype everyone in the game because obviously what you accomplish is a clear indicator of the amount of life you have!</p></blockquote>Did I said everyone? Learn to read and comprehend, I said most ..not all..maybe you are the exception..or maybe you just pretend you are... you know the old saying...he who protests loudest...No, I really do NOT hate hardcore raiders... I pity them.J.C.</blockquote><p>No, you use they as your only descriptor...they is pretty much all encompassing...you never said everyone because your inferences did it for you.</p><p>I will learn to comprehend when you actually post what you state you mean...or maybe you are just backtracking from your biased sweeping generalization.</p>

[Rqron]

<cite>Korpo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Did I said everyone? Learn to read and comprehend, I said most ..not all..maybe you are the exception..or maybe you just pretend you are... you know the old saying...he who protests loudest...No, I really do NOT hate hardcore raiders... I pity them.J.C.</blockquote>Says the person with no real raid experience. Most hardcore raid guilds don't require all that much of a time investment, they just require focus and dedication during that time.</blockquote>So you say....J.C

[Loolee]

<cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>There's a reason raiding is on it's way out in MMO design. </blockquote>In your PvP dream world, but WoW shows that raiding is here to stay.</blockquote>Then go play WoWJ.C.</blockquote>As long as SoE keeps making raid content for their games, then the raiders will be here.  Its not for you, nor I, to dictate who plays this game. 

[Korpo]

<cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>So you say....J.C</blockquote>I play on LDL too, and standing around in QH and spamming the channels looking for instance groups isn't "raiding".

[interstellarmatter]

<cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote>They spend thousends of plats for masters..yeah right some of them can't barely afford to pay for repairs and are starved for masters in T8. Ohh puleeeeze tell that sob story to a 5 year old he may believe you. Is his DPS high enough?..who cares it's one person so the fight takes 5 seconds longer bahhh the sky is falling, the almighty parser GOD will suspend the accounts because they are a tad low..that is some of the biggest BS I have seen so far in this tread and there is quite a bit here. They have to explain the strats...bahhhh choke, choke..gawd...raiding is so hard they need to spend more then 20 seconds on vent or TS to say hey you all know what to do we where here 40 times before and the guy we take along you go over there into the corner and target through XX ohh  gimme a break. I have been to several T8 pickup raids and am not with a raiding guild.or all twinked out ..but it is not that much harder then T7 just  different...  The only thing you are right is point #8 ..they think you don't deserve it because they are elitist snobs that think just because they spend more time in game then with family in RL,  and  push buttons add nausea  it makes them better then you...I have news, they are not..they only think they are because they spend so much time raiding they don't have a social life and so this is all they have and so they try to protect that little empire against all outsiders.  Most (not all) hard core raiders I have met person to person from EQ1 and some from EQ2 where RL losers and social outcasts. They have they're little fantasy of being better to protect because in RL..well they have nothing and the "game" is they're way of happiness....a sorry bunch really.J.C.</blockquote>Wow, sterotypes for the win.  I really feel sorry for you Rqron.

[Trynnus1]

<cite>Auttumn@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Its not even knowing the content...most people can be told a few directions and do fairly well...MOST.</p><p>Its the gear also, its the experience at raiding over grouping or soloing (yes, they are diffrent playstyles, not harder just different).</p><p>Is your gear a mix of treasured, master crafted, and legendary...and none from present raid zones?  Then you are a liability and will be dead every AOE.</p><p>How are your resists?  Can you get each one up to 10k self buffed?</p><p>How about your spells?  You have all masters and the rest adept 3's?</p><p>How about your AA's?  Are you raid spec'd?</p></blockquote><p>LOL, im sorry, what an arrogant [I cannot control my vocabulary].... you think your all high and mighty cuz you have a bit of fabled gear?  Let me ask you this big shot... did you start raiding with that gear? NO... you didnt, you started raiding with legendary / MC mixed.... and you got the gear from raiding... So saying that you have to have all that stuff to start out with is [I cannot control my vocabulary], plain and simple... get over yourself, your not that special just cuz you have a huge raid x 8 force that can roll zones super fast and get gear.  You started off raiding with non raid gear, so dont try and say that your all special cuz you have it now and that someone without raid gear will "wipe" your raid.... and "insta-die" from the AOEs... if you guys got through it the first time as an entire raid, then you "uber raid" squad with one or 2 people without raid gear wont bother your precious little raid timer at all...  </p><p>Let me guess... you had all raid gear to start with?   AHHEMM... **BULLSHVICK***.... even if your entire guild was fully raid geared otu in 70 gear, that gear is junk for the T8 raids, so therefore that argument is now outof the window....     So get off your high horse...   Raiding takes coordination yes, but each class has a job... and as long as you "uber leet raid force extroidinair" leaders can communicate, it wont be a problem...   </p><p>Anyways, to the OP......  Join the raid guild... earn your way to a raid spot if you want to go on the raids... quit your "leadership" role in a puny guild and join the raid guild so you can go on the raids, its that simple...  Send a tell to the leader and tell him your situation, and ask to join the guild so you can get a spot in the raids...  Is the guild banks on your lvl 21 guild that important? if so, then dont complain about not raiding.</p></blockquote><p>Oh My GOD. Who is arrogant now. I am the Raid leader for a casual guild. We are clearing PR finally after 2.5 months of hard work. Our core force of 12-18 people that show up each night is always supplimented by more casual guild members. the officer core had to go out and harvest for rares because some people didnt think ADP3 spells were MANDITORY to raid. (when a healer is using ADP1s it doesnt cut it for healing the MT same goes for DPSer. Same goes for adornments. The 5-10% upgrade from spells and adornments do add up.</p><p>I can tell when a guildie doesnt have their resists up or when they are not listening in vent (again manditory for raiding with us). It has taken alot of work and effort on our part to get to where we can move to T2 raids. So what makes you and the OP think you deserve a free pass to get your Mythical? </p><p>The original quote here is bang on - What gear/spells/AAs do you have? This is important for every single raider.</p><p>I am not "fabled out" but I am wearing the best possible gear that I can get. I have the tank earrring from Chardok, the shoulders from MC, my fabled epic, wrist from CoK, plus about 10 fabled adornements that I personal worked to get the components for. My Mit is 58% and avoidance is 69% all selfbuffed. These are not exceptional numbers compared with MT from "hardcore" guilds but are still impressive numbers for a zerker. I have been around for 3 years now and gone from solo to casual to group to raider. I have read all the casual vs raider threads.</p><p>The bottomline is you want the mythical - DO IT YOURSELF. Thats what I am my guild is doing. It will take us until the next expansion most likely but we WILL get there under our own power.</p><p>Your other choice - There is a guild on Unrest offering Mythical kills in VP for 600 plat. (not sure where I stand on this one)</p>

[WeatherMan]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ecoskii wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>aw go on... transfer this thread to eq2flames so raid guilds can have a proper go at it... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></p></blockquote>Is it healthy for the game to have such extreme stratification in play-styles?There's a reason raiding is on it's way out in MMO design. </blockquote>A month ago, I would have said anyone who though raiding was 'on the way out' was delusional or kidding themselves.  But now...There are rumors...<i>rumors</i>, mind you...that one of the reasons Age of Conan was set back (again) was so that the developers could re-evaluate the 'raid content question'.  I am unsure as to the veracity of these whisperings (or whether they are complete and total BS), but it would not bother me in the least.  Or shock me, for that matter - raiding is a very small percentage of the playerbase, and I am of the opinion that any company would deep-six the raiding concept if they thought that adding a slew of non-raid content at the expense of raid content would increase their net profit margin.  And it appears that this is the way the future trends are headed.That being said....As disparaging as I am of raid guilds, their elitism, and their all-too-often contemptuous behavior (using my former guild on Everfrost as a benchmark for such things - YAY SERVER TRANSFERS!), this is one instance where I have to side with them.  Why?To use an analogy, take a high school drill team.  Their members have drilled together for months, and have their routines down pat.  They know each others strengths and weaknesses, and can compensate for them.  As a result, they can perform their routines flawlessly.Bringing in a complete stranger, even someone who knows their drill routines and is proficient in the activity, is still going to throw them off.  My son is in a Marine Corps JROTC Rifle Drill Team, and when I go to his performances, I can only sit and gape in amazement at how polished those young men and women are when they perform.  And I know they would not do as well if a complete stranger suddenly fell into line beside them and tried to do their well-oiled drill routines with them, even one who is a proficient driller.  It just ain't gonna happen.Granted, a skilled precision rifle drill is a far cry from sitting on your duff in front of the monitor mashing buttons in a raid - but even if you subscribe (as I do) to the theory that only one person in a raid need know what the <BLEEP> they are doing and the rest need not be more than remote drones, that one 'in the know' person still has to know his drone's strengths, weaknesses, how to coordinate them, and how to best utilize their skills, equipment, and (yes) personalities.  AND...he has to be sure they will do what they need to do without having to have the point repeatedly hammered home.  An outsider in a raid destroys this synchronicity in all but the most rare of skilled and flexible raiding guilds.I am in an awesome 'family' guild, and the leaders of such are proficient raiders, to boot.  So I may...<i><b>may</b></i>...one day see an epic weapon in my hand.  But if not, I'm okay with that.  I'm not in any hurry to reach end game, and I am certainly not going to abandon my friends and comrades to join a guild that eschews community and family all for the sake of raiding.  No thanks.  But you (the OP) should also realize that to them, this is their chosen playstyle - and most of them, unlike you, <i><b>do</b></i> have the time (for whatever reason) to sit for hours on end in a stream of raids - and because of that, they know how to avoid a lot of the pitfalls that would creep back up on them with an unknowing outsider participating.

[Dasein]

<cite>Gaige wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>There's a reason raiding is on it's way out in MMO design. </blockquote>In your PvP dream world, but WoW shows that raiding is here to stay.</blockquote>Actually, WoW is a big reason why it's on it's way out. Blizzard has basically won the traditional PvE MMO game, so there's little point in trying to compete with them. This is forcing developers to explore different types of games and look at different markets.

[Korpo]

<cite>Trynnus1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>There is a guild on Unrest offering Mythical kills in VP for 600 plat. (not sure where I stand on this one)</blockquote>If someone <i>really</i> wants to get their mythical, I see no problem with it. The guild is essentially offering someone a service that they can't get anywhere else, and people can partake if they are for it or not if they aren't.

[Rqron]

<cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am amazed at the amount of bitter people who hate raiders for no reason why so ever than their own whiny self entitled beliefs.</p><p>Rgron just won the total nonsense award for having no clue.  You are a very sad bitter person who honestly believes that drivel you just posted?</p><p>Yes, sadly everyone in my guild has no life, sits in our collective parents basement, and wipes our cheeto stained fingers on our unwashed darth vader t-shirts...</p><p>I know, lets stereotype everyone in the game because obviously what you accomplish is a clear indicator of the amount of life you have!</p></blockquote>Did I said everyone? Learn to read and comprehend, I said most ..not all..maybe you are the exception..or maybe you just pretend you are... you know the old saying...he who protests loudest...No, I really do NOT hate hardcore raiders... I pity them.J.C.</blockquote><p>No, you use they as your only descriptor...they is pretty much all encompassing...you never said everyone because your inferences did it for you.</p><p>I will learn to comprehend when you actually post what you state you mean...or maybe you are just backtracking from your biased sweeping generalization.</p></blockquote>There is nothing in my statement that I have to backtrack from. Time and again during the last 4 years what I have seen is exactly what I have described...If you say you and your guild are not like that..ok but its you saying so and coming from someone that obviously belongs to a ( maybe) hard core raid guild I take that with a big grain of salt. You don't have to try to convince me that you are different prove it on your server to the rest of the players.. You said you don't understand the hatred of the casual player toward hardcore raiders? Really? Where have you been?  There is a reason that a very large percentage of the casual players and even some of the casual raiders are hating hardcore raiders..and its not envy..there absolutely is no reason to be envy, of what?  e-pixels? "achievements? lol what achievements? ...nope it is the mightier then thou elitist attitude displayed by the hardcore raiding community toward the rest of the players, openly displayed in game and in the various forums..unless this changes, the animosities will always be there and people will voice this not only toward the raiding guilds but also toward SOE management.. and as you probably know, money talks and the majority of accounts are non raiders. So, I see the time coming where raiding will be slowly but surely fade away, after all, they make more money from non raiders. It is easier and cheaper to make an outdoor zone like KP then have to invest all the development time to make additional dedicated raid zones to make a minority happy.  I alway laugh when I see the treads where raiders say they will leave the game if raiding is not fixed...it is laughable as if that would make any difference in SOEs income. It would be probably quite a savings for SOE if they don't have to employ devs for raiding content and spend the development time and server resources to make the raiding community happy.J.C.

[Zarador]

Membership has it's privileges... and it's costs. Although I have not raided for several years now, since I left Everquest I, I can understand easily why you have to be willing to make a commitment in order to gain from raiding in a Guild.First off, them being able to accomplish things that most Guilds and Groups can't hope to accomplish is one of the rewards for sticking it through the less thrilling raids and encounters. The fact that they can count on a core of members to put out their best to gain such items means that their members can gain such items knowing it was no small feat to accomplish.Human nature, such as it is, would diminish some of that reward for sticking it out if someone could just "Tag Along" and pick up a mythical reward.  There will always be a few guilds that will help others, because they enjoy doing that.  There will be others that charge a fee for that help because they feel the Guild could use the coin and that charging a high fee will take some of the sting out of helping.  Then again, there are guilds that don't support that mindset and feel if you have not put out the long haul efforts of being in a raiding guild, you don't deserve short term benefits. There is no right or wrong in the issue as it's an extension of courtesy that they have a right to determine their policies on.

[AegisCrown]

<cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This post is an opinion of my own towards the Guk server.</p><p>Congratulations to the guilds that have the members to get their mythical weapons.  My small guild will not be able to get theirs because we are shut out of the high level guild raids because when we ask if we can raid with them, we get an emphasized "NO" in response. </p><p>It be a warm day in Everfrost when i see NPU, Troops of Doom, Keepers of Realm, OWG, etc...  actually say "Why don't we split our normal guild raid up and invite smaller guilds to play with us." </p><p>My guild has maybe 6 full time players in it and 12 total.   We are very casual players, who occassionally like to jump into a raid and learn the zones.    However, everytime I ask someone if i can join their raid I get a tell back saying, "We don't allow people outside our guild to raid with us."   Or I hear, "Stand by and if we have room we'll invite you, " only to know that the response will be, "Sorry, we filled it with our guild members." </p><p>You should be ashamed of yourselfs for being that greedy that you can't allow those of us who work 65 - 70 hours a week a chance to obtain the pleasure of raiding one the high end raid zones. </p><p>Currenly, I have one option if i want to raid and that's to leave the guild that have become my family and friends over the past 4+ years. </p></blockquote>Well, at least they did not asked you to pay 50P a piece for the "privilege" to raid with them...they are not greedy they are just elitist snobs..J.C.</blockquote>elitist snobs how do you figure? we do things with our guild you do stuff with yours thats how it is.  just got we can get things you cant doesnt mean we have any obligation to help anyone. 

[KBern]

<p>I have no real need to prove anything to you or anyone else about myself, guild or playstyles but I will say that not everyone who has mythicals are HARDCORE.</p><p>Many family type guilds can raid, and raid well if they have the committment and the right leadership.  My guild raids 3 days a week, for a total of 12 hours weekly.</p><p>How many self proclaimed  casuals play that much?  I would a very large amount.  So the myth that you need to have no life to be a successful raider is bunk.</p><p>Now if you want to compete for contesteds, that takes a whole other level of committment but instanced raiding has done away with the need for a 24/7 ready to raid force.</p><p>I have been here since day 1, obviously with the post count and the account date....and i still to this day do not understand the sweeping hatred some people have for those that raid.</p><p>There are [Removed for Content] who raid and think they are better than everyone else, just the same as their are [Removed for Content] who dont raid and think they are better than everyone else.</p><p>Most people are [Removed for Content] before they choose a playstyle and how they press their buttons wont have any major impact on their personality...[Removed for Content] are [Removed for Content].</p>

[Rqron]

<cite>Korpo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>So you say....J.C</blockquote>I play on LDL too, and standing around in QH and spamming the channels looking for instance groups isn't "raiding".</blockquote>Just because you play on LDl does not mean [Removed for Content] . If you ever see me standing in QH "spamming" the channels to look for "instance groups" I will gladly pay ya 100P. Never done it never will. I don't even look for instances because I don't care where I go if I am looking for group ....instances,  raiding or just killing ordinary mobs in any zone..it does not mater one iota. I don't play this game for loot I play it for fun.  So obviously you are either mistaken me for someone else or just trying to troll...and that is fine too if that is what you need to feel better.J.C.

[Trynnus1]

<cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Korpo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>So you say....J.C</blockquote>I play on LDL too, and standing around in QH and spamming the channels looking for instance groups isn't "raiding".</blockquote>Just because you play on LDl does not mean [I cannot control my vocabulary] . If you ever see me standing in QH "spamming" the channels to look for "instance groups" I will gladly pay ya 100P. Never done it never will. I don't even look for instances because I don't care where I go if I am looking for group ....instances,  raiding or just killing ordinary mobs in any zone..it does not mater one iota. I don't play this game for loot I play it for fun.  So obviously you are either mistaken me for someone else or just trying to troll...and that is fine too if that is what you need to feel better.J.C.</blockquote>And what do you do for fun in-game? Why do you play? Quests? Crafting?

[Mirdo]

Is anyone actually going to offer a decent argument for raid guilds allowing pickups with no commitment and presumably at the expense of their own members? Or why guilds that do not allow or even consider using pickups should be labeled as greedy?Still waiting...

[Dasein]

<cite>Mirdo@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is anyone actually going to offer a decent argument for raid guilds allowing pickups for free and presumably at the expense of their own members? Or why guilds that do not allow or even consider using pickups should be labeled as greedy?Still waiting...</blockquote>It's not that there is a good argument for why such guilds should, but that this complaint is symptomatic of a much larger and more fundamental issue, namely the negative impact raiding and the associated player stratification has on the overall community of a game.

[interstellarmatter]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mirdo@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is anyone actually going to offer a decent argument for raid guilds allowing pickups for free and presumably at the expense of their own members? Or why guilds that do not allow or even consider using pickups should be labeled as greedy?Still waiting...</blockquote>It's not that there is a good argument for why such guilds should, but that this complaint is symptomatic of a much larger and more fundamental issue, namely the negative impact raiding and the associated player stratification has on the overall community of a game.</blockquote>The online world is much like the real world.  A stratification of different people from all walks of life.  Are you purposing a game where everyone is the same?  Sounds pretty boring to me.

[KBern]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mirdo@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is anyone actually going to offer a decent argument for raid guilds allowing pickups for free and presumably at the expense of their own members? Or why guilds that do not allow or even consider using pickups should be labeled as greedy?Still waiting...</blockquote>It's not that there is a good argument for why such guilds should, but that this complaint is symptomatic of a much larger and more fundamental issue, namely the negative impact raiding and the associated player stratification has on the overall community of a game.</blockquote><p>Well being that having multiple playstyles offers multiple levels of enjoyment for this game, I fail to see how that is bad.  The negative aspect comes from people wanting the rewards of a playstyle they do not prescribe to and want the game changed to fit them</p><p>Why is it bad to offering the choices to players to be able to craft, solo adventure, group adventure, or raid?  Options are good, not bad.</p><p>People can choose, the key word and concept is choose, to play and enjoy the game however they want, and however their personal time constraints allow.</p><p>I would love to have some of the tinkering items, but I HATE...DETEST...CANNOT STAND crafting.  Should I ask for crafting to be done away with and allow me to enjoy the same benefits that crafters have earned by their time invested?</p><p>My alts love MC gear....but I dont craft so I suck it up and buy what I need....should I ask to give me all crafting recipes and do away wtih crafting because it stratifies the players and the community?</p>

[Mirdo]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mirdo@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is anyone actually going to offer a decent argument for raid guilds allowing pickups for free and presumably at the expense of their own members? Or why guilds that do not allow or even consider using pickups should be labeled as greedy?Still waiting...</blockquote>It's not that there is a good argument for why such guilds should, but that this complaint is symptomatic of a much larger and more fundamental issue, namely the negative impact raiding and the associated player stratification has on the overall community of a game.</blockquote>I am addressing the actual content content of the OP, not the wider and 'more fundamental' issue that you personally have inferred from that post. A number of 'points' raised by the OP and others are merely opinions and generalisations. Points, in fact, that can't be proven.I certainly wouldn't use this post to debate player divides and as you know, there are many that could be debated. 'Casual versus raiders' being just one. 

[Zarador]

<cite>Mirdo@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is anyone actually going to offer a decent argument for raid guilds allowing pickups for free and presumably at the expense of their own members? Or why guilds that do not allow or even consider using pickups should be labeled as greedy?Still waiting...</blockquote>Because so many believe that they are entitled rewards based on the efforts of outsiders.  They, in fact are the greedy ones. They want the "freedom" to play how they like to play, usually in a casual style, but the same rewards of someone who dedicates (which sounds better than saying, is dictated by) their time to the Guild in an effort to progress their character to the highest (in their opinion) potential.These people tend to trivialize the efforts of the encounter and the Guild.  It's easy for you guys, you can take the mob down in no time and all it takes is a bunch of well geared players to do that. Never mind the efforts taken to get that guild geared up and working well together.  Besides I have a life and a family, I have no time to waste raiding every night. (Yeah, insults work well in these arguments).Their worried that they won't get that rare item that they feel they worked so hard for.  Their forgetting that the Guild capable of doing that also have members who will feel slighted, even if they don't all admit it, for putting in so much time, then helping outsiders get the same rewards. There are plenty of things I would love to do in this game, plenty of items I would love to obtain.  I also enjoy logging in and playing where I want, when I want and with my family.  That puts many of those desires out of my range.  I've learned to enjoy the things we can do and the rewards that we do earn while accepting that those constraints are brought on by my choice.  I never worry that my "gear is junk" because to me, it's not.  It fits my play style and we earned that gear.  I will most likely never see "Mythical"; but then again, I will most likely be pressured into logging in because it's a guild required event. If you get invited to a Pick Up Raid, think of it as a gift that they offered you.  Your not entitled to it, it's a gift.  Someone that does not care to offer that gift is not being greedy.  Thinking that they have to offer that gift is.

[Dasein]

<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mirdo@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is anyone actually going to offer a decent argument for raid guilds allowing pickups for free and presumably at the expense of their own members? Or why guilds that do not allow or even consider using pickups should be labeled as greedy?Still waiting...</blockquote>It's not that there is a good argument for why such guilds should, but that this complaint is symptomatic of a much larger and more fundamental issue, namely the negative impact raiding and the associated player stratification has on the overall community of a game.</blockquote>The online world is much like the real world.  A stratification of different people from all walks of life.  Are you purposing a game where everyone is the same?  Sounds pretty boring to me.</blockquote>What do you mean by 'the same'? If you look at those societies which fail, they tend to be the ones where there are large gaps between the rich and poor, and little in the way of a middle-class. The raiders are the rich, and they seem to want to make sure everyone else stays poor - ie, no one gets any worthwhile rewards from anything other than raiding. A healthy game, on the other hand, would be one where the bulk of the playerbase is in the middle-class, and thus able to participate in the vast majority of the available content, and realize that any objective in the game is withing reach, albeit some may require a bit more work than others.Further, content should be designed to bring the community together, to transcend the boundaries of groups and guilds, and give players common cause. Raiding, as it stands now, serves only to reinforce the divisions, and thus divide the community.

[Mirdo]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mirdo@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is anyone actually going to offer a decent argument for raid guilds allowing pickups for free and presumably at the expense of their own members? Or why guilds that do not allow or even consider using pickups should be labeled as greedy?Still waiting...</blockquote>It's not that there is a good argument for why such guilds should, but that this complaint is symptomatic of a much larger and more fundamental issue, namely the negative impact raiding and the associated player stratification has on the overall community of a game.</blockquote>Do you have conclusive evidence and statistics to prove your (rather bold) statement that raiding has an overall negative impact on the community?

[KBern]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mirdo@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is anyone actually going to offer a decent argument for raid guilds allowing pickups for free and presumably at the expense of their own members? Or why guilds that do not allow or even consider using pickups should be labeled as greedy?Still waiting...</blockquote>It's not that there is a good argument for why such guilds should, but that this complaint is symptomatic of a much larger and more fundamental issue, namely the negative impact raiding and the associated player stratification has on the overall community of a game.</blockquote>The online world is much like the real world.  A stratification of different people from all walks of life.  Are you purposing a game where everyone is the same?  Sounds pretty boring to me.</blockquote>What do you mean by 'the same'? If you look at those societies which fail, they tend to be the ones where there are large gaps between the rich and poor, and little in the way of a middle-class. The raiders are the rich, and they seem to want to make sure everyone else stays poor - ie, no one gets any worthwhile rewards from anything other than raiding. A healthy game, on the other hand, would be one where the bulk of the playerbase is in the middle-class, and thus able to participate in the vast majority of the available content, and realize that any objective in the game is withing reach, albeit some may require a bit more work than others.Further, content should be designed to bring the community together, to transcend the boundaries of groups and guilds, and give players common cause. Raiding, as it stands now, serves only to reinforce the divisions, and thus divide the community. </blockquote><p>Yes because presently there are no single group dungeons and instanced content that offer great rewards that some raiders in VP still use over gear dropped there.</p><p>There are no epics that can be gained by a group that are better than anything dropped on VP other than earning a mythical.</p><p>Everyone but raiders walk around in rags.</p><p>Lets not exaggerate, this game has done wonders to bring many great things to non raiders.  My alts dont raid at all and have some very nice gear all gained from MC items, and running instances.</p><p>Its not as stratified as you are making it seem IMHO.</p>

[Zarador]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mirdo@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is anyone actually going to offer a decent argument for raid guilds allowing pickups for free and presumably at the expense of their own members? Or why guilds that do not allow or even consider using pickups should be labeled as greedy?Still waiting...</blockquote>It's not that there is a good argument for why such guilds should, but that this complaint is symptomatic of a much larger and more fundamental issue, namely the negative impact raiding and the associated player stratification has on the overall community of a game.</blockquote>The online world is much like the real world.  A stratification of different people from all walks of life.  Are you purposing a game where everyone is the same?  Sounds pretty boring to me.</blockquote>What do you mean by 'the same'? If you look at those societies which fail, they tend to be the ones where there are large gaps between the rich and poor, and little in the way of a middle-class. The raiders are the rich, and they seem to want to make sure everyone else stays poor - ie, no one gets any worthwhile rewards from anything other than raiding. A healthy game, on the other hand, would be one where the bulk of the playerbase is in the middle-class, and thus able to participate in the vast majority of the available content, and realize that any objective in the game is withing reach, albeit some may require a bit more work than others.Further, content should be designed to bring the community together, to transcend the boundaries of groups and guilds, and give players common cause. Raiding, as it stands now, serves only to reinforce the divisions, and thus divide the community. </blockquote>Your social analogy fails.  If I'm poor, I can't simply decide that I wish to be rich, then take a job and make amazing amounts of money, simply because that's what I want.  I can't demand that the guy down the street with tons of money share it with me because he earns more in a day than I do in a week.  I don't call him "greedy" for investing years of his time to get where he is.  He does not call me lazy because I did not take his path.Now, on to content:How would you design a game that allows for solo play, group play and raid play?  Obviously, you can't have one degree of difficulty or the raiders ill not raid, what would be the point? You can't make all the mobs so difficult that they can't be soloed, or the solo game is dead.  Obviously group play requires more challenge than solo play, but less than raid play.Do you give out the same rewards? No.  Why Raid or group if everything can be soloed.  If I can get masters and fabled gear off snakes and rats in the trash mob areas, why strive to be any better? So you set a bar for each play style with rewards that support that play style and all three are compensated.  Then the player chooses how they wish to play the game and the rewards are determined by that choice. This is a fantasy game.  It matters not what my status is in real life or how important I feel I am.  I only gain based on how I choose to play my character.  I can be a 90 year old grandmother hardcore raiding in mythical gear or a housewife trade skilling between doing things about the house and watching the kids.  The game does not limit me, I do.

[Trynnus1]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mirdo@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is anyone actually going to offer a decent argument for raid guilds allowing pickups for free and presumably at the expense of their own members? Or why guilds that do not allow or even consider using pickups should be labeled as greedy?Still waiting...</blockquote>It's not that there is a good argument for why such guilds should, but that this complaint is symptomatic of a much larger and more fundamental issue, namely the negative impact raiding and the associated player stratification has on the overall community of a game.</blockquote>The online world is much like the real world.  A stratification of different people from all walks of life.  Are you purposing a game where everyone is the same?  Sounds pretty boring to me.</blockquote>What do you mean by 'the same'? <span style="color: #cc0000;"><b>If you look at those societies which fail</b></span>, they tend to be the ones where there are large gaps between the rich and poor, and little in the way of a middle-class. The raiders are the rich, and they seem to want to make sure everyone else stays poor - ie, no one gets any worthwhile rewards from anything other than raiding. A healthy game, on the other hand, would be one where the bulk of the playerbase is in the middle-class, and thus able to participate in the vast majority of the available content, and realize that any objective in the game is withing reach, albeit some may require a bit more work than others.Further, content should be designed to bring the community together, to transcend the boundaries of groups and guilds, and give players common cause. Raiding, as it stands now, serves only to reinforce the divisions, and thus divide the community. </blockquote><p>What are you talking about? Communism/ Capitalism/ Socialism - none of these systems are perfect. There are examples throughout history of each type that failed.</p><p>You want a real life example, well here you go.</p><p>The OP wants to "loot" the Porche 911ST but he works for McDonalds as a manager. He expects the Chairman of Morgan Stanley (who he doesnt know) to co-sign his loan too.</p><p>You get want you work for, whatever that may be, plat, loot, quest titles, etc. If everything was given out just for showing up, no one would play anymore and those "elitist" raiding guild would definitely not be here.</p>

[interstellarmatter]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>to me.What do you mean by 'the same'? If you look at those societies which fail, they tend to be the ones where there are large gaps between the rich and poor, and little in the way of a middle-class. The raiders are the rich, and they seem to want to make sure everyone else stays poor - ie, no one gets any worthwhile rewards from anything other than raiding. A healthy game, on the other hand, would be one where the bulk of the playerbase is in the middle-class, and thus able to participate in the vast majority of the available content, and realize that any objective in the game is withing reach, albeit some may require a bit more work than others.</blockquote><p>Why do you think that the raiders have more money?  I knew some transmuters who held some of the top places on the server for a while.  You are making EQ2 sound like French society pre-revolution.  Raiders aren't nobles who hold special positions within society and work to exclude people in their little club.  You are so far off base that it is almost humorous.</p><p>Raiding <> money so your main argument fails.  In fact, when I was raid 2 or 3 nights a week before RoK, I was having to go farm my butt off to make money for repairs.</p><p>Raiding = a different style of playing.  Good? Bad?  Well, the more a game has to offer, the more appealing that it becomes to the players.  I don't see WoW drifting away from raiding.  You would think as casual friendly as WoW is to the players that they'd be the most concern about stratification.  When in fact, the new dungeon that was released this has a 25 character raid zone.</p><p>Your arguments are failing.</p>

[Zarador]

<cite>Trynnus1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mirdo@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is anyone actually going to offer a decent argument for raid guilds allowing pickups for free and presumably at the expense of their own members? Or why guilds that do not allow or even consider using pickups should be labeled as greedy?Still waiting...</blockquote>It's not that there is a good argument for why such guilds should, but that this complaint is symptomatic of a much larger and more fundamental issue, namely the negative impact raiding and the associated player stratification has on the overall community of a game.</blockquote>The online world is much like the real world.  A stratification of different people from all walks of life.  Are you purposing a game where everyone is the same?  Sounds pretty boring to me.</blockquote>What do you mean by 'the same'? <span style="color: #cc0000;"><b>If you look at those societies which fail</b></span>, they tend to be the ones where there are large gaps between the rich and poor, and little in the way of a middle-class. The raiders are the rich, and they seem to want to make sure everyone else stays poor - ie, no one gets any worthwhile rewards from anything other than raiding. A healthy game, on the other hand, would be one where the bulk of the playerbase is in the middle-class, and thus able to participate in the vast majority of the available content, and realize that any objective in the game is withing reach, albeit some may require a bit more work than others.Further, content should be designed to bring the community together, to transcend the boundaries of groups and guilds, and give players common cause. Raiding, as it stands now, serves only to reinforce the divisions, and thus divide the community. </blockquote><p>What are you talking about? Communism/ Capitalism/ Socialism - none of these systems are perfect. There are examples throughout history of each type that failed.</p><p>You want a real life example, well here you go.</p><p>The OP wants to "loot" the Porche 911ST but he works for McDonalds as a manager. He expects the Chairman of Morgan Stanley (who he doesnt know) to co-sign his loan too.</p><p>You get want you work for, whatever that may be, plat, loot, quest titles, etc. If everything was given out just for showing up, no one would play anymore and those "elitist" raiding guild would definitely not be here.</p></blockquote>A better analogy would be the "Superbowl".  I'm sure, if you looked, you could take players from some of the other teams that did not make it to the Superbowl and argue that they put in more time and have just as much skill, if not more as the players that made the Superbowl.   Does that give them the right to join the winning teams for that final game? No, because they were not on that team to start with.Players in a raid Guild are not just there for the Mythical Encounters.  Many of them have stuck it out since the days of doing DFC as a Raid (and wiping).  It's not their performance in that one Mythical fight that made them the raid guild that they are, it was all the past time invested to get there, even when it was a dull encounter with shabby rewards.

[Jehannum]

<p>Some things...</p><p>1. Saurakk and Mirdo have the right of it.  It's class envy; not character class, but player class.  Non-raiders who want raid gear and are unwilling to either make the appropriate sacrifices or decisions, or resign themselves to either not getting those rewards (or to receiving them on an attenuated schedule).  It has nothing to do with negative effects of raiding per se, but rather to do with the interactions of the oaks and maples.  Err, I mean the raiders and those who don't.</p><p>2. There are fewer roadblocks in the way of the "poor" non-raider becoming an "affluent" raider than there are in the way of anyone IRL raising their social station; as such, while the analogy is apt to a point, you'll want to be careful about claims that depend on parity between RL and in-game stratification.</p><p>3. To be honest, the mythical epics almost seem a mitigation of the raider/non-raider dichotomy.  The extra effects are generally raid-enabling effects and superfluous in a group situation, and I've slaughtered every heroic instance without even having yet attained my fabled version.  (ok, so granted, all I have to do is kill a guy in Seb and then whip through Maiden's again, but still).  It strikes me that by making the epics unnecessary to normal play, Sony has thrown entitlement whining like this into sharp relief.</p>

[Mirdo]

<cite>Jehannum wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Some things...</p><p>1. Saurakk and Mirdo have the right of it. </p></blockquote>The only response to me has been somebody posting an assertion with no evidence said assertion has any basis in fact.

[Rqron]

<cite>Trynnus1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Korpo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>So you say....J.C</blockquote>I play on LDL too, and standing around in QH and spamming the channels looking for instance groups isn't "raiding".</blockquote>Just because you play on LDl does not mean [I cannot control my vocabulary] . If you ever see me standing in QH "spamming" the channels to look for "instance groups" I will gladly pay ya 100P. Never done it never will. I don't even look for instances because I don't care where I go if I am looking for group ....instances,  raiding or just killing ordinary mobs in any zone..it does not mater one iota. I don't play this game for loot I play it for fun.  So obviously you are either mistaken me for someone else or just trying to troll...and that is fine too if that is what you need to feel better.J.C.</blockquote>And what do you do for fun in-game? Why do you play? Quests? Crafting?</blockquote>Well, just because you asked straight forward,  I will give you a straight forward answer. There are several things I have fun with in this game..Harvesting and crafting on my alts yet taking my time to do so without grinding, They will reach top level someday and if never fine too.Questing,well yes but I also don't mind waiting 3 years to finish one if that is what it takes for me to do it or if that is what it takes for me to hook up with a group to go there if I need a group.  Do I advertise..lfg for a quest group or instance? Nope not worth it, it will come someday and if not, there is always the delete button in the quest journal. I am too old (RL) to want to storm ahead and do everything yesterday.. for what?  Bragging rights for e-pixels? lol.. I like grouping with people for the sakes of grouping and doing "whatever"..being surprised what the evening may bring...I never plan ahead, always do it random and never decline a invite even to a place I was 100 times before. I like random groups doing random things should I end up to get loot from doing this fine, if not, fine also I will be the first to give it away if I won anything as many who ever grouped with me can attest to,..be it master, or junk I don't make a distinction..its pixels on a screen nothing more. I enjoy taking a high lvl lore item that is on the broker for a lot of plat, finding a player who has crap armor and just give it to them...and I don't care even if the other person puts it for 100+p on the broker. I love answering a random low channel call for help if I have time, I help. I don't need to run instance after instance for uber gear to play this game, everything will come with time. I have more fun helping others then grinding instances. Don't get me wrong, I will join the occasional pickup raid to help out if they need someone...not because its a raid <omg> but because they obviousely need someone or they would not advertise it. I will never be mad or offended like I have seen so many times others voicing in chat when someone saiz nope we are now full,  or whatever other reason or the raid/group I just joined has a member log in that is late. I will be the first to say hey, I don't mind  leaving. I do not HAVE to do this..group..or raid..I just do something else to do. If I find nothing to do that strikes my fancy at any particular day, I craft and if I get tired of it, I read a book...EQ2 is entertainment, its like watching TV,  it is not an important all encompassing part of my real life and it is not something to get obsessed about..J.C

[Dasein]

<cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>How would you design a game that allows for solo play, group play and raid play?  Obviously, you can't have one degree of difficulty or the raiders ill not raid, what would be the point? You can't make all the mobs so difficult that they can't be soloed, or the solo game is dead.  Obviously group play requires more challenge than solo play, but less than raid play.Do you give out the same rewards? No.  Why Raid or group if everything can be soloed.  If I can get masters and fabled gear off snakes and rats in the trash mob areas, why strive to be any better? So you set a bar for each play style with rewards that support that play style and all three are compensated.  Then the player chooses how they wish to play the game and the rewards are determined by that choice. This is a fantasy game.  It matters not what my status is in real life or how important I feel I am.  I only gain based on how I choose to play my character.  I can be a 90 year old grandmother hardcore raiding in mythical gear or a housewife trade skilling between doing things about the house and watching the kids.  The game does not limit me, I do.</blockquote>I would do away with the entire concept of solo, group and raid play as discrete entities and seek to have a fluid system where solo play becomes group play if more people participate. Goals would be primarily cooperative, and benefit the entire community, or at least one faction. For example, the spire construction live event leading up to the release of KoS is a perfect example of this sort of cooperative play. It required multiple types of players, and a fair amount of social organization, but was fairly easy for anyone to participate in, should they desire. It scaled organically from solo to group play, and ultimately had a reward which benefited the entire community. 

[Jalanix]

What it really all comes down to is that EQ2 is a <i>hobby. </i>Just like any other hobby (Playing a sport, a musical instrument, art classes etc) sometimes the people participating put a lot of effort into it, both because they enjoy it and because it's fun to be the best.  I've never heard anyone say about someone that spends 5 hours a day playing in a band, painting, playing sports etc.  that they have no life, so what exactly makes gaming different? Anything we choose to do with our free time counts as a hobby.  Different people have different ideas of fun and who are you to judge which is somehow more valid than the rest?In addition to that, there is a big thrill that comes from being "the best" at something.  Whether you're breaking world records for running or putting clothespins on your nose, you're still "the best" and people take a large deal of pride in that.  The same goes for raiding guilds.  The hard work people put into a raiding guild often pays off - not in the form of phat lewts as most non-raiders believe - but in the form of accomplishing something.  Especially if your guild is the first in the world (or on the server) to do it. I was (am - though I don't raid anymore) in a hardcore guild in WoW.  When we were working on new content, we raided 6 days a week for about 6 hours a day.  Contrary to what certain people in this thread like to believe, the guild is a mixture of all ages, family status and careers.  Most of us have "Lives".  Of course, once the content was on farm status, the amount of time involved dropped drastically to the point where only the most extreme of  "casuals" could possibly balk at the idea <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  It was hard work beating the new content, but I like to think of it as training for a marathon, you spend a lot of time training before the big day and then you get the sense of accomplishment when you finish the race and can relax a bit.  We all got a huge kick out of both just beating the content and the thrill of beating the other guilds on the server. Of course, when you spend that much time with people, you often grow to be pretty close with tight loyalties - which may come off as elitist or snobby.  I admit that it sometimes can tough to break into a guild like that, but its not because they are mean people or conceited or whatever.  It's just that it takes time to feel that comfortable and trusting of someone else.  Plus - raid spots are limited and you certainly don't want to make one of your close friends sit out so a complete stranger can have a try.  I have never raided in EQ2, but if it is anything like WoW, most guilds will run an excess of members so raids won't have to be canceled if someone doesn't show up.  This means that most nights, as many as 10 or so guilded people could be having to sit out (or being swapped in and out).  It would hardly be fair to further exclude guildies by letting in "outsiders". In addition, the trust of the other players in the guild makes a big difference.  It can cause a ton of headaches even with something on "farm status" when you have one person in the raid that doesn't know what they are doing.  Note: they can be a fantastic player, but even one person not knowing the content can cause wipes.  This is why most raid guilds just don't bother letting others in to raids, except if they are are trying out for the guild, and even then usually only allow 1 or 2 at a time on very easy content.  If you want your mythical weapon that badly, I would suggest forming an alliance with other "casual" guilds and start raiding for yourselves.  If you feel this way, I'm sure others on your server do as well.  All you need is someone with drive to organize it <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  It will, of course, take A LOT longer than if a raiding guild lets you tag along.  But at least you will feel like you earned it when you finally get it. 

[Barakuz]

<p>To the OP,</p><p>You sure seem to be bleating a whining a lot about you not getting your much deserved e-pixel mythical weapon. Seems kinda ironic to me. Although, I am sure it will make it soooo much easier to help all the newbies out in Thundering Steppes.</p><p>Bara</p>

[Daghammerskold]

<cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>Yes because presently there are no single group dungeons and instanced content that offer great rewards that some raiders in VP still use over gear dropped there.</p><p>There are no epics that can be gained by a group that are better than anything dropped on VP other than earning a mythical.</p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;"><b>Everyone but raiders walk around in rags.</b></span></p><p>Lets not exaggerate, this game has done wonders to bring many great things to non raiders.  My alts dont raid at all and have some very nice gear all gained from MC items, and running instances.</p><p>Its not as stratified as you are making it seem IMHO.</p></blockquote>If non-raiders walk around in rags it is their own choice. <a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/conjurors/21475-conj-gear-items.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">This link</a> is to a sticky on EQ2Flames Conjuror  boards listing the 3-5 best items for each slot.I won't go thru them all but almost every slot has a quested item or one that drops from a single group instance as one of the best available choices.A few examplesJ<a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/198475395" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">arsath Robe of Royalty</a> from Maiden's Chamber<a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-407893232" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Fuchsia Finery</a> from Maiden's Chamber<a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/789604956" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Praetor's Guard</a> from Vaults of Eternal Sleep<a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/-547722565" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Burdened Signet</a> from Crypt of Agony<a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/284880873" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Bracelet of Thuuga</a> from a quest in Kylong<a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/1031182218" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Woven Silk Underlay</a> from a quest in Fens<a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/579587842" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Bone Clasped Girdle</a> from a t7!!! quest<a href="http://www.lootdb.com/eq2/item/203051263" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pristine Majestic Swiftcloth Cloak</a> player craftedI could go on but will let it rest here.

[Windowlicker]

<cite>Loolee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can't see why they would be required to help you get anything.That being said, <b>a number of</b> these guilds didn't work for anything.  Just so you know, the EQ2 developers have a habit of feeding some raiding guilds exploits and strats for the raid encounters.So really, they didn't work for anything.</blockquote>Oh please!  If you knew anything at all about the process you wouldn't say that.  Even LFG doesn't believe that <i>every</i> raiding guild has been hand fed that kind of information.  </blockquote>Turn off the fanboi for two seconds and re-read what I said.I bolded it for you.

[Splatty_Spat]

Hope the OP was being sarcastic, because if he isn't he's dim.

[firza]

<cite>Splatty_Spatty wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hope the OP was being sarcastic, because if he isn't he's dim.</blockquote>Its always great to see people defending the great principles of equality.....Or just trying to start a riot.....actually, I prefer the latter.

[Tokam]

<cite>Mirdo@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>Is anyone actually going to offer a decent argument for raid guilds allowing pickups with no commitment and presumably at the expense of their own members? Or why guilds that do not allow or even consider using pickups should be labeled as greedy?Still waiting...</blockquote><p>I think Pinski offered the only realistic argument for this. (The having them along, no the exclusion of non members.)</p><p>This thread so totally delivers, really good read <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Slotor]

<cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I am amazed at the amount of bitter people who hate raiders for no reason why so ever than their own whiny self entitled beliefs.</p><p>Rgron just won the total nonsense award for having no clue.  You are a very sad bitter person who honestly believes that drivel you just posted?</p><p>Yes, sadly everyone in my guild has no life, sits in our collective parents basement, and wipes our cheeto stained fingers on our unwashed darth vader t-shirts...</p><p>I know, lets stereotype everyone in the game because obviously what you accomplish is a clear indicator of the amount of life you have!</p></blockquote><u><i><b>Did I said everyone? Learn to read and comprehend</b></i></u>, I said most ..not all..maybe you are the exception..or maybe you just pretend you are... you know the old saying...he who protests loudest...No, I really do NOT hate hardcore raiders... I pity them.J.C.</blockquote>Pure undiluted awesome! Yea screw you guys that work 9-5, come home then proceed to spend your time with friends playing an online game instead of watching tv. Get a grip please.

[Loolee]

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Loolee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can't see why they would be required to help you get anything.That being said, <b>a number of</b> these guilds didn't work for anything.  Just so you know, the EQ2 developers have a habit of feeding some raiding guilds exploits and strats for the raid encounters.So really, they didn't work for anything.</blockquote>Oh please!  If you knew anything at all about the process you wouldn't say that.  Even LFG doesn't believe that <i>every</i> raiding guild has been hand fed that kind of information.  </blockquote>Turn off the fanboi for two seconds and re-read what I said.I bolded it for you.</blockquote>I'm not a boy.  <img src="http://img90.exs.cx/img90/2365/k1ocray.gif" alt="" border="0" />

[Tokam]

<cite>Loolee wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm not a boy.  <img src="http://img90.exs.cx/img90/2365/k1ocray.gif" border="0" alt="" width="31" height="22" /></blockquote><p>Girls can be wrong too! </p><p>(Well, Ive consulted the oracle on this one, and my girlfriend informs me that she is never ever wrong and I had better get used to it, but apparently other girls can be...)</p>

[Loolee]

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Loolee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I can't see why they would be required to help you get anything.That being said, <b>a number of</b> these guilds didn't work for anything.  Just so you know, the EQ2 developers have a habit of feeding some raiding guilds exploits and strats for the raid encounters.So really, they didn't work for anything.</blockquote>Oh please!  If you knew anything at all about the process you wouldn't say that.  Even LFG doesn't believe that <i>every</i> raiding guild has been hand fed that kind of information.  </blockquote>Turn off the fanboi for two seconds and re-read what I said.I bolded it for you.</blockquote>To be perfectly honest, wasn't responding to "a number of these guilds".  It was your comment "they didn't work for anything."  Even if I was handed the strats for every boss mob, every contested and every avatar out there, it still would take a huge amount of working together as a guild and developing the skills to take on these mobs.  Just because some folks may (or may not) have been given a helping hand, don't marginalize the amount of work they have already done to get to the level where they can finish these raids.

[Thunderthyze]

<p>ROFL....a thread with this title was never going to be a forum for rational discussion was it?</p><p>OK...I've got a few points on this.....feel free to rip to shreds as required.</p><p>1. I have a real problem with players who feel that the mythical version of their epic weapon is a god given right (no pun intended). Before the epics the whole "Norrath stills" notification really was a moment of high drama on any server. Now it seems to happen several times a night. Personally I believe that only the server first for each "mythical" should have the kudos for the server announcement. To an extent I also thnk that there was no real need to allocate the title mythical to them anyway. The work to get the "fabled" version was FAR less than say the Claymore series and as such I would have thought the terms "legendary" and "fabled" could have been used. </p><p>2. That said, moving on with the mythical tag I honestly believe that it would totally degrade the items if everyone was running around QH or EFP with an ultra uber weapon, to say nothing of the effect that would have on the rest of the game content and balancing issues. I remember the first time I saw someone riding a carpet and thinking WOW.......how uber is THAT!? Now everyone has one as a basic requirement post level 57.</p><p>3. I am not a raider. Never have been and unlikely ever to be. BUT, I do think that anyone who is prepared to devote the amount of time and energy required to get into, and be effective in, top tier raiding should have access to stuff the rank and file can't get. As many people have stated you DO have a choice. If you DESPERATELY want that item then work yourself up and apply to join a raid guild. If you're good enough you'll get in. If you're not then why do you think you deserve the top weapon in the game?</p><p>4. Raid alliances. In a year's time the alliances will be getting access to the top raid zones. If you don't want to raid full time then WAIT! Patience is a virtue.</p><p>5. It IS a fact of life that many hardcore raiders ARE complete wankers. No disrespect intended but it arises out of the ethos that first is best and everything else sux. Raiders live a different existence from the rest of us and have to put up with an uneven playing field what with certain raid guilds having SOE devs on their roster giving out strats/exploits. They play a high pressure game and as such deserve to be cut some slack when you get knocked back for getting into their raid. Be consoled OP that in order to raid hardcore you need to wave bye bye to any sort of RL. You at least DO have friends in your existing guild. Raiders would turn on their own at the merest scent of blood in the water. Raiding? It's a trade off.</p><p>So to summarise things for the OP.....stop obsessing about your epic weapon. There is so much else to play in the game.</p>

[skinandbones]

<p>All I can say is WOW somebody had the [cant control my vocabulary] to post this.</p><p>I remember a situtation like this on a EQ1 server a few years ago.  Lets just say the complainer got run off the server from the raid guilds.</p><p>Raid guilds owe nothing to nobody.  They are not here to help, assist, or build up lower tier guilds.  As many have stated dont like it then move on and build up your own guild.</p>

[Tokam]

<cite>Loolee wrote:</cite> <blockquote>[nested mess] <blockquote>To be perfectly honest, wasn't responding to "a number of these guilds".  It was your comment "they didn't work for anything."  Even if I was handed the strats for every boss mob, every contested and every avatar out there, it still would take a huge amount of working together as a guild and developing the skills to take on these mobs.  Just because some folks may (or may not) have been given a helping hand, don't marginalize the amount of work they have already done to get to the level where they can finish these raids.</blockquote></blockquote><p>You are looking at it out of context, the wrong frame of reference. Instead imagine youself to be in a guild achieving things similar to NPU. ie you have killed trak and the killable avatars already.</p><p>Given the information made available to NPU in that context people in confirmed / strike / sureal etc are going to feel a little short changed.</p>

[Dasein]

Perhaps a viable solution would be to create a system which rewards altruism, in that the more people who obtain the mythical weapon, the more powerful all the weapons become, for example. Thus, the top raid guilds would have an incentive to help get as many people as possible their mythical weapons, because it would directly benefit them.

[Redhenna]

<cite>Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>ROFL....a thread with this title was never going to be a forum for rational discussion was it?</p></blockquote><p>Truest line in this thread.</p><p>Really, the long and the short of it is that the guilds doing the content to be able to have Mythicals, got to the point of being able to do that through a lot of time and effort.  Whether this means they don't have a life or whatever is irrelevant, they got what they got cuz they put in a ton of effort.  If you are not able or willing to put in that time and effort, then you are not going to have Mythicals yet.  Those guilds don't owe me, or anyone else outside of their membership who got them where they are.</p><p>I do not have my mythical, and I doubt I will see one soon.  If/when I do get one, I expect it will be because I put in the time, and the effort, to attain one.  I certainly don't expect people I barely know to hand me it on a golden platter...in fact, having it handed to me like that would take a little of the sense of accomplishment away.</p>

[Rijacki]

<cite>Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>5. It IS a fact of life that many hardcore raiders ARE complete wankers. No disrespect intended but it arises out of the ethos that first is best and everything else sux. Raiders live a different existence from the rest of us and have to put up with an uneven playing field what with certain raid guilds having SOE devs on their roster giving out strats/exploits. They play a high pressure game and as such deserve to be cut some slack when you get knocked back for getting into their raid. Be consoled OP that in order to raid hardcore you need to wave bye bye to any sort of RL. You at least DO have friends in your existing guild. Raiders would turn on their own at the merest scent of blood in the water. Raiding? It's a trade off.<p>So to summarise things for the OP.....stop obsessing about your epic weapon. There is so much else to play in the game.</p></blockquote>It IS a fact that many hardcore roleplayers ARE complete wankers.  It IS a fact that many hardcore tradeskillers ARE complete wankers. It IS a fact that many deadset-on-being-casual players ARE complete wankers. It IS a fact that many players ARE complete wankers. It IS a fact that many people in the world, even those who have never played any computer game let alone any MMOG, ARE complete wankers. It IS a fact, though, that the majority of hardcore raiders, hardcore roleplayers, hardcore tradeskillers, casual players, game players, non-game players, and so on are NOT complete wankers. There will always be a few prats in any group of people.  The sad thing is that those prats will decide they are entitled to something.  The entitlements include feeling one deserves the adulation of a group of people for doing something "better" or different than the rest, everyone should drop everything they're doing just to assist that one in getting something he/she wants, everyone should have their lives revolve around the one, and so on.The OP is one form of those who think they are entitled to something merely by existing.  The OP, and others in th thread, accuses raiders of being another type form of those who think they are entitled because they can do things he can't.And so on...I was just irritated enough by this post and it's attempt to sterotype and slur while saying "oh but I don't feel that way".  A vocal and very in-your-face few of hardcore raiders really are complete wankers, but the majority aren't.  That still doesn't mean the majority that aren't shouldn't drop what they're doing to assist someone random person they've never met before. It also doesn't mean that by not dropping everything to go help some random person they are being selfish or greedy (and the person I am replying to didn't even imply that, others did).

[Windowlicker]

<cite>Loolee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>To be perfectly honest, wasn't responding to "a number of these guilds".  It was your comment "they didn't work for anything."  Even if I was handed the strats for every boss mob, every contested and every avatar out there, it still would take a huge amount of working together as a guild and developing the skills to take on these mobs.  Just because some folks may (or may not) have been given a helping hand, don't marginalize the amount of work they have already done to get to the level where they can finish these raids.</blockquote>Some of them didn't work for anything.  I'm in a raiding guild, and I can assure you our life would be much easier if we had a developer feeding us strats and exploits for every hard pull we came across.Most of us do kill ourselves figuring out these pulls.  But it's a known fact that some of the most powerful raiding guilds around frankly didn't do a bit of work figuring out these zones.So yes, the respect for clearing that content just isn't there for a few guilds.  And I won't bother naming them.

[Mirdo]

<cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>5. It IS a fact of life that many hardcore raiders ARE complete wankers. No disrespect intended but it arises out of the ethos that first is best and everything else sux. Raiders live a different existence from the rest of us and have to put up with an uneven playing field what with certain raid guilds having SOE devs on their roster giving out strats/exploits. They play a high pressure game and as such deserve to be cut some slack when you get knocked back for getting into their raid. Be consoled OP that in order to raid hardcore you need to wave bye bye to any sort of RL. You at least DO have friends in your existing guild. Raiders would turn on their own at the merest scent of blood in the water. Raiding? It's a trade off. <p>So to summarise things for the OP.....stop obsessing about your epic weapon. There is so much else to play in the game.</p></blockquote>It IS a fact that many hardcore roleplayers ARE complete wankers.  It IS a fact that many hardcore tradeskillers ARE complete wankers. It IS a fact that many deadset-on-being-casual players ARE complete wankers. It IS a fact that many players ARE complete wankers. It IS a fact that many people in the world, even those who have never played any computer game let alone any MMOG, ARE complete wankers. It IS a fact, though, that the majority of hardcore raiders, hardcore roleplayers, hardcore tradeskillers, casual players, game players, non-game players, and so on are NOT complete wankers. There will always be a few prats in any group of people.  The sad thing is that those prats will decide they are entitled to something.  The entitlements include feeling one deserves the adulation of a group of people for doing something "better" or different than the rest, everyone should drop everything they're doing just to assist that one in getting something he/she wants, everyone should have their lives revolve around the one, and so on.The OP is one form of those who think they are entitled to something merely by existing.  The OP, and others in th thread, accuses raiders of being another type form of those who think they are entitled because they can do things he can't.And so on...I was just irritated enough by this post and it's attempt to sterotype and slur while saying "oh but I don't feel that way".  A vocal and very in-your-face few of hardcore raiders really are complete wankers, but the majority aren't.  That still doesn't mean the majority that aren't shouldn't drop what they're doing to assist someone random person they've never met before. It also doesn't mean that by not dropping everything to go help some random person they are being selfish or greedy (and the person I am replying to didn't even imply that, others did).</blockquote><p>I am glad somebody took the time to point out the painfully obvious. I was halfway through a very similar post and realised the futility of it. One thing these boards have proven to me are the number of people willing to delude themselves into thinking that being a raider immediately means you have no job or life outside the game and are an arrogant, rude, pig. I wonder if believing these myths somehow make the people clinging to them feel better about something? I really have no idea but these concepts are pretty tired and outdated given how todays MMO's work. </p>

[Hollywood]

<cite>Jehannum wrote:</cite><blockquote><p> but rather to do with the interactions of the oaks and maples.</p></blockquote>Thumbs up for the Rush reference! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Konahito]

<p>Hi Everyone!</p><p>This thread is pretty interesting to read overall, but the borderline personal attacks and trolling is starting to get out of hand.  Please debate the points/ideas contained in the OP or raised by other posters; do not attack those posters themselves for their opinions.  <b>Argue the point, not the person.</b>  You can be passionate about the topic while still posting in a civil manner.</p><p>I'll be going through the thread and removing any outright trolling posts.  Those are the ones that have been made purely to stir up the drama between playstyles (raiders v non-raiders, hardcore v. casual) and for no other purpose.  As a note, the cleanup may affect some of you who were just responding to the trolling posts.</p><p>Thanks!</p>

[Ranja]

<cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This post is an opinion of my own towards the Guk server.</p><p>Congratulations to the guilds that have the members to get their mythical weapons.  My small guild will not be able to get theirs because we are shut out of the high level guild raids because when we ask if we can raid with them, we get an emphasized "NO" in response. </p><p>It be a warm day in Everfrost when i see NPU, Troops of Doom, Keepers of Realm, OWG, etc...  actually say "Why don't we split our normal guild raid up and invite smaller guilds to play with us." </p><p>My guild has maybe 6 full time players in it and 12 total.   We are very casual players, who occassionally like to jump into a raid and learn the zones.    However, everytime I ask someone if i can join their raid I get a tell back saying, "We don't allow people outside our guild to raid with us."   Or I hear, "Stand by and if we have room we'll invite you, " only to know that the response will be, "Sorry, we filled it with our guild members." </p><p>You should be ashamed of yourselfs for being that greedy that you can't allow those of us who work 65 - 70 hours a week a chance to obtain the pleasure of raiding one the high end raid zones. </p><p>Currenly, I have one option if i want to raid and that's to leave the guild that have become my family and friends over the past 4+ years. </p></blockquote>So you want a better guild to drag you through content you could never get through yourself. You would probably wipe the raid if you joined it. Why should they let you ride their coattails?

[Bledso]

<cite>Ranja wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This post is an opinion of my own towards the Guk server.</p><p>Congratulations to the guilds that have the members to get their mythical weapons.  My small guild will not be able to get theirs because we are shut out of the high level guild raids because when we ask if we can raid with them, we get an emphasized "NO" in response. </p><p>It be a warm day in Everfrost when i see NPU, Troops of Doom, Keepers of Realm, OWG, etc...  actually say "Why don't we split our normal guild raid up and invite smaller guilds to play with us." </p><p>My guild has maybe 6 full time players in it and 12 total.   We are very casual players, who occassionally like to jump into a raid and learn the zones.    However, everytime I ask someone if i can join their raid I get a tell back saying, "We don't allow people outside our guild to raid with us."   Or I hear, "Stand by and if we have room we'll invite you, " only to know that the response will be, "Sorry, we filled it with our guild members." </p><p>You should be ashamed of yourselfs for being that greedy that you can't allow those of us who work 65 - 70 hours a week a chance to obtain the pleasure of raiding one the high end raid zones. </p><p>Currenly, I have one option if i want to raid and that's to leave the guild that have become my family and friends over the past 4+ years. </p></blockquote>So you want a better guild to drag you through content you could never get through yourself. You would probably wipe the raid if you joined it. Why should they let you ride their coattails?</blockquote><p>That is a huge assumption - simply because people have not raided people should not automatically dismiss them.   There is a difference between inexperience and class knowledge and the ability to follow instructions / directions.</p><p>Your 2nd point offers no counter point - why shouldn't the more experienced guilds do something nice for a community.   It seems most of the arguments are us vs them and "we are good so you are automatically not any good".</p><p>It is a game and it costs nothing to aid people for nothing other than an act of kindness or a few gold for repairs.</p><p>It seems the act of kindness is one thing that the majority of arguments here are dead set against.</p><p>Granted the OP could have titled this a bit better, but I notice a lot of angst amoung the hard core raiders which in turn also generates a lot of animosty towards you guys.</p><p>If there are spots open on a raid I find it extremely difficult to understand this power theme people seem to have here.   How about increasing your server repuatation and do some Norrath good for a change.  Don't sacrifice spots but if there are available slots - who really cares - it is just ego not to at that point and a sense that its pure superiority,an allbeit greed impression that is displayed.</p><p>Arguments should be more informative and in the form of debates / advice and not so much into generalities.</p>

[Draknishar]

Personaly my first impression here was the same as the first reply.It is true that the fact that some people are able to get things that others arent is in its very basic form, unfair.That being said raiders do have to work for what they gain and the items they gain are rewards for the effort they put into this and that effort isnt just having gathered 24 people in a guild and being supplied with information and then happily walking home with their new shiny mythical. For me it is the effort that makes raiding fun, for example, years ago dying to the contested in everfrost until we had to repair and then just keep coming back until one day we killed it.Another requirement is time. I have found myself unable to keep raiding for this very reason as well, not everyone can always take the time required to be able to these things now but maybe one day you too can walk into VP with a pickup or alliance and walk out with your mythical epics just like pickups are now doing raids wich at one point would seem impossible for them.Then again, why be forced to do pickups and possible wait months for the weapon these raid guilds are getting now? You dont really have to, raid guilds to take in new members and some move servers to get into one but you seem to want to play with your friends so thats not really something your likely to do I guess, many have suggested an alliance, this is good for keeping your guild intact the way it is or you could do the same thing the raid guilds have done, gather people who want to raid to your guild and start working towards that mythical goal you have, knowledge of tactics might come slowly or maybe you will find people who know some of the tactics.Should you be unwilling to do any of these things or the things many others have probably suggested, for whatever reason, and simply want to be helped by those who have fought for a position of power without any effort on your part I stand by my first impression.All this might already have been said, I didnt bother reading several pages but this is still how I feel on this subject.Remember asking for the mythical epic weapon is no different than asking for any other raid loot and the use for this raid loot is mostly to more effectively raid.

[nevyn]

someone told me that the idea of introducing Epic weapons that you can solo was to satisfy those that don't get to raid for higher level content.Whoever thought that would work doesnt play the game.Showing someone what they `could turn their weapon into` isn't going to make them happy with what they've got.<hr />As for newbs piggybacking for hardcore content.there are thousands of people in raiding guilds trying to unlocked the various tiers.it will take us months of effort.By the time we are there, we will be there because we would have learn't how to work together properly, how to adapt together and our gear will be up to scratch to take the zone without too many wipes.Throw a bunch of raid newbies into the mix, it'll end in tears.<i>*visualises a Spartan Phalanx then adds a couple of nuns*</i><hr />meh, got a raid soon otherwise I'd read the 9 pages of topic this thread has to it's name, but my opinion is this game is different things to different people. free will doesn't mean free choice. If i was you I'd enjoy what i had instead of comparing everything. (to the original poster)Furthermore <b>`</b><span class="postbody"><b>You should be ashamed of yourselfs for being that greedy that you can't allow those of us who work 65 - 70 hours a week a chance to obtain the pleasure of raiding one the high end raid zones.`</b></span>When i read that I regretted applying this thread any thought at all.If you barely play the game, don't expect to benefit from the high end content you onion. End of.ruddy ell<i></i>

[Mariss]

Just a thought... and dunno if it's been mentioned (I didn't read all 9 pages, just the first 3)...But I see several raid guilds who won't take you in until you hit level cap.  And all too often I see the same raid guilds recruit members (headhunting would be a rather harsh term for it since my server doesn't seem to suffer the problems portrayed in this thread to such an extreme) from non-raid casual guilds.  On more than one occasion I've seen players join a guild, just to leave when they hit level cap to join a raid guild they had all along planned to join from the outset.Now I'm not preaching against this practice.  That's all fine and dandy.  However, would it be too much to ask that raid guilds be more accommodating to smaller guilds who basically farm their members?  Piggybacking a guild to get what you want, then turning your back on them later when you leave to join a raid guild is kinda harsh.I know on Nek server, raid guilds don't seem to shut out smaller guilds as much as seems to be portrayed here.  I've been able to get in on raids with raid guilds when I take the time to make the attempt.  Maybe we just happen to have a more mature population who're willing to work more as a community.  Or maybe I just happen to socialize and interact with the playerbase more, who knows.

[ShashLigai]

<p>I don't know about raid guilds being greedy, but I do know that there is alot of raid content I probably will never see because I just don't have the time to commit to raiding.</p><p>However, I still like to raid occasionally, and I have. Here is a suggestion.</p><p>Make friends with chars who are in raid guilds. Group with them whenever you can. Demonstrate that you know how to play your char. Let  them know your interested in raiding if a slot comes up. Check their web site for schedules and let them know your available.</p><p>If they like you and your play style, you might get an invite, but you can bet it won't be on new raid instances. </p><p>Also, have you tried guild alliance?</p>

[Hollywood]

Or just play a Dirge... getting into raids is easy for us! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> j/kIn all seriousness, I am not 100% sure the OP understands what is involved in raiding for your Mythical class weapon... afiak you have to successfully complete *several* raid zones before you are even allowed to enter the zones necessary to get your Mythical updates.  And if you are working 65-70 hours a week... well, I think you can see how completing all of these raids just to have your character even flagged to enter VP is going to take a fair amount of time, time which you apparently don't have.  The raiding alliance I am in is only on The Temple of Kor'Shaa now, even after all of this time, however we are making progress and getting better as we become more experienced/better geared. (although Kodux and Zarda are proving a bit of a challenge atm... grrrrr).The point is, the best path for you, given your situation (and the one you would probably feel the most personally rewarded taking) is finding a couple of like-minded guilds in a similar situation to your own, and start raiding together.  Maybe hit a few T7 zones to get the feel of working together then if you feel you have enough decent gear and the experience, start in on Protector's Realm (a virtual loot pinata!).  Do this 2 or 3 times a week if you can, and you will all start to get geared up relatively quickly after a bit.  Then start adding Thuuga into the mix, and so on.If you place so much value on gaining a Mythical weapon for yourself, don't you want to feel like you've really, really earned it, even if it takes a long time to get it?

[interstellarmatter]

<cite>Melot@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Your 2nd point offers no counter point - why shouldn't the more experienced guilds do something nice for a community.   It seems most of the arguments are us vs them and "we are good so you are automatically not any good".</p><p>It is a game and it costs nothing to aid people for nothing other than an act of kindness or a few gold for repairs.</p><p>It seems the act of kindness is one thing that the majority of arguments here are dead set against.</p></blockquote>I don't get it.  Are you saying that everyone should follow your sense of morality in the game?  Isn't it up to the individual players/guilds on how they interact in the world?

[Mirdo]

<cite>Melot@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ranja wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This post is an opinion of my own towards the Guk server.</p><p>Congratulations to the guilds that have the members to get their mythical weapons.  My small guild will not be able to get theirs because we are shut out of the high level guild raids because when we ask if we can raid with them, we get an emphasized "NO" in response. </p><p>It be a warm day in Everfrost when i see NPU, Troops of Doom, Keepers of Realm, OWG, etc...  actually say "Why don't we split our normal guild raid up and invite smaller guilds to play with us." </p><p>My guild has maybe 6 full time players in it and 12 total.   We are very casual players, who occassionally like to jump into a raid and learn the zones.    However, everytime I ask someone if i can join their raid I get a tell back saying, "We don't allow people outside our guild to raid with us."   Or I hear, "Stand by and if we have room we'll invite you, " only to know that the response will be, "Sorry, we filled it with our guild members." </p><p>You should be ashamed of yourselfs for being that greedy that you can't allow those of us who work 65 - 70 hours a week a chance to obtain the pleasure of raiding one the high end raid zones. </p><p>Currenly, I have one option if i want to raid and that's to leave the guild that have become my family and friends over the past 4+ years. </p></blockquote>So you want a better guild to drag you through content you could never get through yourself. You would probably wipe the raid if you joined it. Why should they let you ride their coattails?</blockquote><p>That is a huge assumption - simply because people have not raided people should not automatically dismiss them.   There is a difference between inexperience and class knowledge and the ability to follow instructions / directions.</p><p>Your 2nd point offers no counter point - why shouldn't the more experienced guilds do something nice for a community.   It seems most of the arguments are us vs them and "we are good so you are automatically not any good".</p><p>It is a game and it costs nothing to aid people for nothing other than an act of kindness or a few gold for repairs.</p><p>It seems the act of kindness is one thing that the majority of arguments here are dead set against.</p><p>Granted the OP could have titled this a bit better, but I notice a lot of angst amoung the hard core raiders which in turn also generates a lot of animosty towards you guys.</p><p>If there are spots open on a raid I find it extremely difficult to understand this power theme people seem to have here.   How about increasing your server repuatation and do some Norrath good for a change.  Don't sacrifice spots but if there are available slots - who really cares - it is just ego not to at that point and a sense that its pure superiority,an allbeit greed impression that is displayed.</p><p>Arguments should be more informative and in the form of debates / advice and not so much into generalities.</p></blockquote>Please find my posts in this thread and counter them. I expect something better than 'an act of kindness'. There are hundreds, if not, thousands of people in casual guilds per server. Just who should be singled out for this act of kindness? Which of our members should we tell can't raid that day because we are letting somebody we don't know raid with us?You say arguments should be informative and in the form of a debate. All you have offered is that strangers should be allowed to join a team of players that have possibly spent hundreds of hours raiding together, spent real money, in game money and experienced the joy and pain of beating this content 'for an act of kindness'. To me that is no argument at all. You might as well have said 'just because'.

[DMIstar]

<p>Well since this seems to be looked into.. Only Thing i can do is point out when/why and on what Servers general populace of worked on things together... </p><p> The Only Time I've seen people of Different guilds work on things together in large number is open raids... </p><p> Problem with this game is the raid size is hugely limited... </p><p> In EQ there was more alliances, and open target kills for specific things, PoP was actually a big thing on that as time grew on it.. Due a ton of flagging was involved and not all raid guilds had the man power to keep up getting everyone grinding through flags... hence More Open raids where hosted and a sort of allaince between raid guilds on flagging other guilds players ... </p><p> Though in retrospect that was in the same game, in which there was ninja looting, Training, Raceing and Blocking content. Ironic but as the game went on and each new expansion comeing out lead to Raiders quiting the game only to have those raiding guilds pick from other people on the server.. and the lower the gear that person had, meant more grinding for raid guild as a whole which did not help ;P.</p><p> For this game though...The big thing is Spot limitation that EQ2 introduced and that each spot needs X class and leaves other classes out completely at times... If SoE gets rid of this, it will be a big improvement... EQs 75man tier raid never realy had the spot Limitation other then there was to many people ... Funny thing is that meant a larger player base and more subscriptions being paid O o .</p>

[Vaagner]

<p>In reference to <b>ShashLigai's </b>suggestion of a guild alliance ..... I highly recommend that option over asking raid guilds for help.  I can't speak for your specific server but many raid guilds are open to inviting players if their raid is not full and you are the right class.  But that is a crapshoot and raid guilds really have no obligation to take anyone not in their guild, even if they have spots open.  (Hopefully they won't be rude or "talk down to you" if they deny your request.)</p><p>Our guild (Casual Alliance) on Blackburrow is a member of a successful guild "alliance" that was formed so we could tackle the higher level content that individual (i.e.: smaller or casual) guilds could not do by themselves.  The Mark of Awakened 4 (quest line) was the impetus.  The following (IMO) are the things that make it enjoyable and work well.</p><p>Each participating guild keeps its own identity and "family" intact.  But they live in a "neighborhood" of other guilds that will all help each other out.</p><p>Everyone realizes that we will always be a few (or more:) months behind the big raiding guilds and are OK with that.  Some members moved from raiding guilds because the pace to get all the T8 content was getting to be a bit much.  They can enjoy the game's content a little more.  We will all get our quests done (EG: Epics) eventually.</p><p>We use a common Ventrilo (voice chat) server.  We don't require folks to have a mic, but they have to hear the instructions for better coordination.  This is a necessity for raiding and is helpful (not to mention fun) when grouping.  </p><p>We try to train players in areas such as targeting, gear upgrades, raids, macros, etc.   The players that spend a couple hours a week reading these forums will share that info with those that don't via half-hour Ventrilo discussions.</p><p>We raid once a week and select zones that are at the edge of our capability for a challenge.  We pick zones that may take 2 or 3 weeks (totaling 2 to 8 attempts) so we do not spend all our time mending with no sensation of progress.  This way we can progress quests and gear our members.  They like this.</p><p>Besides the weekly raid, we hold weekly events like Epic update runs, HQ nights, Alt nights (to gear them up) and even City Guild raids.  There are no attendance requirements and we sometimes have space for "friends" outside the alliance.  These events are posed on our alliance web site.  Pickup groups are formed by calling out on the alliance in-game chat channel before we go to the world LFG.  This means most players will be familiar with each other.</p><p>Getting all this organized was a bit of work for the guild leaders but worth every minute.  I am sure other "alliances" across the servers of Norrath will agree.</p><p>Doughboy</p>

[Windowlicker]

What's amazing about this thread, is it was designed to be about "Raid Guilds Greed" however only ends up being about "Non-Raider Greed".Go Irony!

[Creyzee]

<p>I have my mythical. Only 2 guilds on our server have completed VP so far. </p><p>My husband and I are in a guild that only raids 4 nights a week from 7:30 - midnight. That is NOT hard core. I bet many of you casual players actually play more hours per week than we do. To me, that is what I find ironic.</p>

[Leafkiller]

<p><cite>Funniest Post Ever! Or is that most clueless? Hmmmm...</cite></p><p><cite>I think I'll have to go with funniest! </cite></p><p><cite></cite></p><p><cite></cite></p><p><cite></cite></p><p><cite></cite></p><p><cite>JmacF wrote:</cite></p><blockquote><p>This post is an opinion of my own towards the Guk server.</p><p>Congratulations to the guilds that have the members to get their mythical weapons.  My small guild will not be able to get theirs because we are shut out of the high level guild raids because when we ask if we can raid with them, we get an emphasized "NO" in response. </p><p>It be a warm day in Everfrost when i see NPU, Troops of Doom, Keepers of Realm, OWG, etc...  actually say "Why don't we split our normal guild raid up and invite smaller guilds to play with us." </p><p>My guild has maybe 6 full time players in it and 12 total.   We are very casual players, who occassionally like to jump into a raid and learn the zones.    However, everytime I ask someone if i can join their raid I get a tell back saying, "We don't allow people outside our guild to raid with us."   Or I hear, "Stand by and if we have room we'll invite you, " only to know that the response will be, "Sorry, we filled it with our guild members." </p><p>You should be ashamed of yourselfs for being that greedy that you can't allow those of us who work 65 - 70 hours a week a chance to obtain the pleasure of raiding one the high end raid zones. </p><p>Currenly, I have one option if i want to raid and that's to leave the guild that have become my family and friends over the past 4+ years. </p></blockquote>

[Koltur]

Transfer to Befallen, pay something like 900p , and get yourself your mythic update, there's some guild offering that stuff ;P(Oh ya, and this is 9 pages of hilarity.)

[Dasein]

<cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Melot@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Your 2nd point offers no counter point - why shouldn't the more experienced guilds do something nice for a community.   It seems most of the arguments are us vs them and "we are good so you are automatically not any good".</p><p>It is a game and it costs nothing to aid people for nothing other than an act of kindness or a few gold for repairs.</p><p>It seems the act of kindness is one thing that the majority of arguments here are dead set against.</p></blockquote>I don't get it.  Are you saying that everyone should follow your sense of morality in the game?  Isn't it up to the individual players/guilds on how they interact in the world?</blockquote>I wonder why a social game like an MMO requires such anti-social behavior to be successful? It seems to me to be a failing of MMO design that those who tend to perform best are the ones who set themselves apart and shut themselves away from the rest of the playerbase.

[Zarador]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Melot@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Your 2nd point offers no counter point - why shouldn't the more experienced guilds do something nice for a community.   It seems most of the arguments are us vs them and "we are good so you are automatically not any good".</p><p>It is a game and it costs nothing to aid people for nothing other than an act of kindness or a few gold for repairs.</p><p>It seems the act of kindness is one thing that the majority of arguments here are dead set against.</p></blockquote>I don't get it.  Are you saying that everyone should follow your sense of morality in the game?  Isn't it up to the individual players/guilds on how they interact in the world?</blockquote>I wonder why a social game like an MMO requires such anti-social behavior to be successful? It seems to me to be a failing of MMO design that those who tend to perform best are the ones who set themselves apart and shut themselves away from the rest of the playerbase.</blockquote>Because....Guilds are social, what your asking is for them to do charity work for those who want the same rewards that they earned, without being a part of their social structure.  I would think that those expecting large social groups to take them in and help them, so they can then go off on their own are the ones behaving in the manner you described.  What exactly is the mentality being displayed here?  I have neither the time or inclination to be a part of that sort of a Guild, yet it's their obligation to see that I obtain what their members are able to obtain?

[Dasein]

<cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Melot@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Your 2nd point offers no counter point - why shouldn't the more experienced guilds do something nice for a community.   It seems most of the arguments are us vs them and "we are good so you are automatically not any good".</p><p>It is a game and it costs nothing to aid people for nothing other than an act of kindness or a few gold for repairs.</p><p>It seems the act of kindness is one thing that the majority of arguments here are dead set against.</p></blockquote>I don't get it.  Are you saying that everyone should follow your sense of morality in the game?  Isn't it up to the individual players/guilds on how they interact in the world?</blockquote>I wonder why a social game like an MMO requires such anti-social behavior to be successful? It seems to me to be a failing of MMO design that those who tend to perform best are the ones who set themselves apart and shut themselves away from the rest of the playerbase.</blockquote>Because....Guilds are social, what your asking is for them to do charity work for those who want the same rewards that they earned, without being a part of their social structure.  I would think that those expecting large social groups to take them in and help them, so they can then go off on their own are the ones behaving in the manner you described.  What exactly is the mentality being displayed here?  I have neither the time or inclination to be a part of that sort of a Guild, yet it's their obligation to see that I obtain what their members are able to obtain? </blockquote>So why is philanthropy not practiced? Why is there no sense of noblesse oblige in the game? If we look at most real-life civilizations, those at the top tend to make a point of demonstrating their commitment to charity and helping the public welfare. Why does such a spirit not exist in MMOs, at least among the top guilds?

[erin]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Melot@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Your 2nd point offers no counter point - why shouldn't the more experienced guilds do something nice for a community.   It seems most of the arguments are us vs them and "we are good so you are automatically not any good".</p><p>It is a game and it costs nothing to aid people for nothing other than an act of kindness or a few gold for repairs.</p><p>It seems the act of kindness is one thing that the majority of arguments here are dead set against.</p></blockquote>I don't get it.  Are you saying that everyone should follow your sense of morality in the game?  Isn't it up to the individual players/guilds on how they interact in the world?</blockquote>I wonder why a social game like an MMO requires such anti-social behavior to be successful? It seems to me to be a failing of MMO design that those who tend to perform best are the ones who set themselves apart and shut themselves away from the rest of the playerbase.</blockquote>Because....Guilds are social, what your asking is for them to do charity work for those who want the same rewards that they earned, without being a part of their social structure.  I would think that those expecting large social groups to take them in and help them, so they can then go off on their own are the ones behaving in the manner you described.  What exactly is the mentality being displayed here?  I have neither the time or inclination to be a part of that sort of a Guild, yet it's their obligation to see that I obtain what their members are able to obtain? </blockquote>So why is philanthropy not practiced? Why is there no sense of noblesse oblige in the game? If we look at most real-life civilizations, those at the top tend to make a point of demonstrating their commitment to charity and helping the public welfare. Why does such a spirit not exist in MMOs, at least among the top guilds?</blockquote>How do you know it doesn't happen?  How do you know that the top raid guilds on most servers don't take a non-raider along on occasion?But lets look at the OP honestly.  What's he really saying?  Is he really asking the top raid guilds to take along a non-raider occasionally?  Or is he actually asking that he, personally, be given his mythical weapon without having to work for it?  Read the OP again.  You tell me.I'm not a raider, but then I also don't expect to get the gear of a raider.  Sorry but I've seen some ridiculous requests on these boards, this ranks up there as probably the most presumptious request ever."I don't want to join a raid guild, but I demand that they help me get raid gear, rather than work to their own members benefit".  Say what?Why should they?Yes altruism is nice, but you don't demand it, you don't call people names ("greedy&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> to get them to be altruistic.As someone else said, the thread title says "raid guilds greed" but the OP is actually the greedy one.  No question in my mind."Give me stuff I didn't earn just because you can".

[Qandor]

<p>Interesting thread in a way. It does raise one question though and perhaps someone can provide some insight into the matter. </p><p>We do know for a fact that some guilds have offered their services to get people mythicals for plat. On one server they have even advertised in chat that the rate would be 1,000 pp. It is simply a silly offer since on the particular server in question there cannot be more than 30 people who even 1,000 pp. In any event, the offer has stirred some hard feelings and I'm just wondering why a guild would want to taint a guild reputation in that fashion.</p><p>I can perfectly understand a guild not wanting to drag someone through the steps to get their mythical. There are many legitimate reasons why they would not want to do so.</p><p>However, a guild who is willing to do it for plat, apparently is willing to drag someone through. I'm just wondering why no guild, at least that I am aware of, has been willing to do so, occassionally as a goodwill gesture. Now of course, it is entirely possible that some guilds are doing so quietly. I wouldn't know if they are in fact doing so.</p><p>So the question is, if some are willing to do it for plat and harm their reputation a bit with their server at large, why hasn't any guild looked to improve their reputation by offering such a thing publicly either through a raffle or something as a good will gesture? It just seems odd that this has not occurred at all. Surely a guild would gain in stature by doing so or is that something that a top guild would not be concerned with? Perhaps they feel their stature is solely their raiding game and nothing else matters. </p><p>No reason I suppose for anyone to do so really but if you were at the top of your game, why not? Just for fun.</p>

[erin]

<cite>Qandor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>So the question is, if some are willing to do it for plat and harm their reputation a bit with their server at large, why hasn't any guild looked to improve their reputation by offering such a thing publicly either through a raffle or something as a good will gesture? It just seems odd that this has not occurred at all. Surely a guild would gain in stature by doing so or is that something that a top guild would not be concerned with? Perhaps they feel their stature is solely their raiding game and nothing else matters. </p><p>No reason I suppose for anyone to do so really but if you were at the top of your game, why not? Just for fun.</p></blockquote>How many times before its not fun?  Once?  Ten times?  Once a week?  Do you honestly think they care about a reputation of philanthropy on the server?  Why should they?And why are you determining what's fun for someone else?  Most raid guilds have fun by achieving things.  Not shepherding noobs through the content they fought hard to conquer.

[Svann]

When someone has something you want, its not greedy for them to not give it to you.  Its greedy for you to expect it.

[Leafkiller]

<p>The original poster is asking that 23 other people spend the next month getting him geared up, trained and flagged though some very very tough encounters. </p><p>Why the heck should they?</p><p>Was he there when the guilds spent 50 deaths in a row figuring out these mobs? Or night after night of tackling the same encounters over and over (and over) again? These encounters are hard and they take a smoothly working team to defeat, and throwing some whiny little ... into the mix isn't going to work.</p><p>OP is a noob that needs to get two clues to rub together - you get your mythical after your toon is geared and spelled up, you know T8 raiding well, exactly what your job is in each encounter, and you know exactly what the other people are going to be doing and when.</p><p>Its not a simple 'Does anyone have a cleared Unrest' type of request, its just not something anyone is going to do unless the toon is already well equiped and pretty much ready for the zones, especially VP. </p><p>There are piles of raiders on Guk that don't have their Mythical (say, like me) because the end zones are tough, and many guilds are only now getting good enough to even try VP.</p><p>And he want a charity raid so he can have the shiny mythical in easy mode...</p><p> Still say its the funniest post ever!</p><p>  </p>

[erin]

Something in another thread made me realize something.  I wonder how many times the OP has done content over and over again for less fortunate people on the server?  If he isn't constantly helping others with content he's "done with", then he probably shouldn't be posting this thread.

[Jeepned2]

<p>Just so the OP gets it.</p><p><u>Raiding guilds are or have:</u></p><p>1. Responsible for the gearing and training of thier guild members.</p><p>2. Normally a very tight group of like minded people who love the challenge of the raiding environment.</p><p>3. Have died who knows how many times and spent who knows how much plat in repairs to learn how to kill the raid mobs. ( and you want to just walk in and say HI, let's go kill my mob? )</p><p><u>Raiding guilds are not:</u></p><p>1. Social services.</p><p>2. A charity organization.</p><p>3. A learning center for those who do not want to spend the time or do not have the time to <u><b>EARN</b></u> thier equipment.</p><p>For those in my guild who have thier mythical weapons, THEY EARNED them, and for those that don't, they are "putting in thier time" for it.  To have someone just walk up and tell us that we should sit one of members just so you can have your mythical is just a little rude. You want your mythical? Try earning it.</p>

[Ariste]

All I could think of as I read the OP was <u>Atlas Shrugged</u>.Anyone else see it?

[Zarador]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zarador wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>interstellarmatter wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Melot@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Your 2nd point offers no counter point - why shouldn't the more experienced guilds do something nice for a community.   It seems most of the arguments are us vs them and "we are good so you are automatically not any good".</p><p>It is a game and it costs nothing to aid people for nothing other than an act of kindness or a few gold for repairs.</p><p>It seems the act of kindness is one thing that the majority of arguments here are dead set against.</p></blockquote>I don't get it.  Are you saying that everyone should follow your sense of morality in the game?  Isn't it up to the individual players/guilds on how they interact in the world?</blockquote>I wonder why a social game like an MMO requires such anti-social behavior to be successful? It seems to me to be a failing of MMO design that those who tend to perform best are the ones who set themselves apart and shut themselves away from the rest of the playerbase.</blockquote>Because....Guilds are social, what your asking is for them to do charity work for those who want the same rewards that they earned, without being a part of their social structure.  I would think that those expecting large social groups to take them in and help them, so they can then go off on their own are the ones behaving in the manner you described.  What exactly is the mentality being displayed here?  I have neither the time or inclination to be a part of that sort of a Guild, yet it's their obligation to see that I obtain what their members are able to obtain? </blockquote>So why is philanthropy not practiced? Why is there no sense of noblesse oblige in the game? If we look at most real-life civilizations, those at the top tend to make a point of demonstrating their commitment to charity and helping the public welfare. Why does such a spirit not exist in MMOs, at least among the top guilds?</blockquote>Because, in my opinion, it's also a "game" and games, like sports tend to be competitive.  To use sports (which I know little about); teams don't share their play information with the other team because they want an edge that they worked together as that team to gain.  As a team, they feel that they worked hard together to accomplish those goals, again, together; and being a part of that team allows you to share in the victories of that team. You recruit members of the team, tell them your goals, sometimes as a level 1 guild and then build that guild up to a high level that takes on challenging content by the time invested in their members to make that guild what it is.  You keep moral up by helping others and gaining a good reputation.  People feel that they are part of an exclusive group of friends playing a game they enjoy and doing things they could not accomplish on their own.  Your members come first, they helped the guild be where it is, you helped them gain what they were after. Having raided in the past, a major encounter does feel like the "Superbowl" to some extent.  You send in your best players while coaching them and using your best strategy. You don't say "Hey, we won this already, lets take in some players from the other teams for this one, they want a ring as well, it's the right thing to do!".

[Zeuhl]

<p>  Heaven forbid people worked for anything anymore. Simply put the OP is part of the instant gratification crowd. You're being greedy by saying, "Ok you guys spent the last few months putting in hours, plat, and effort to get good enough and well geared enough to get your mythicals. Now that you're so awesome take me and get me mine. Oh, and nevermind that the fact that I'm not in your guild, don't want to join it and didn't help you guys ever do anything to get where you are." Doesn't sound so good from that perspective does it?</p><p>  For those of you that had to pull the real life card, yes Rgorn I'm looking at you, all I have to say is get a freaking clue. Sure there are probably "hardcore" raiders out there that still live with there parents or have no life. But I'm willing to bet there are just as many "casuals" out there in the same boat. My guild raids 3-5 times a week for about 3 hours a day. That's only 9-15 hours out of a week. I work atleast 40-50 hours a week and have 2 kids and a wife. I manage to make nearly every raid and still have plenty of time left out of my week to take my kids to the park, my wife to dinner, or have a family night of boardgames and popcorn. If I want to raid in my spare time when I'm not on deployment (I'm USMC), or working, or spending time with my family that's my [Removed for Content] business not yours. </p><p>   Maybe the OP's server just sucks (can't tell you for sure as I don't play there) but not every hardcore guild is a bunch of snobby elitist asshats. Tribes of the Seven Moons is the top guild on my server and they don't allow anyone who's not on their roster or an app to raid with them. One of the coolest things I've seen though is that they have an alt guild that raids. They announce on the server forums when their alt guild is going to be running a PUR and fill spots on a first come first serve basis. They're only requirements are that you understand that their alts will get first shot at gear and that those invited will be chosen with the best chance of success at finishing the zone. They may have more stipulations(sp) but I haven't raided with them so I don't know for sure. I'm not saying that every top end guild should do this, I'm just using it as an example to show you that you can't make a sweeping generalization about a specific type of player.</p>

[Tokam]

<cite>Zeuhl@Mistmoore wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>   Maybe the OP's server just sucks (can't tell you for sure as I don't play there) but not every hardcore guild is a bunch of snobby elitist [I cannot control my vocabulary]. Tribes of the Seven Moons is the top guild on my server and they don't allow anyone who's not on their roster or an app to raid with them. One of the coolest things I've seen though is that they have an alt guild that raids. They announce on the server forums when their alt guild is going to be running a PUR and fill spots on a first come first serve basis. They're only requirements are that you understand that their alts will get first shot at gear and that those invited will be chosen with the best chance of success at finishing the zone. They may have more stipulations(sp) but I haven't raided with them so I don't know for sure. I'm not saying that every top end guild should do this, I'm just using it as an example to show you that you can't make a sweeping generalization about a specific type of player.</p></blockquote>Nah, guk is a pretty good place. Lots of nice people, an active server chat channel (guk.raid), plenty of wnokledgable folks happy to answer questions. Its been a while since I was on guk so I cant comment on the availability of pickup raids, but its one of the few servers where its always possible to talk to a dev <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[KBern]

<p>Lets say you even humor the point the OP is making and some are agreeing with.</p><p>Where do the raiding guilds draw the line?  Who do they help and who don't they?  </p><p>Basically some on here are saying every guild able to get mythicals should keep one or more spots permanently open in their raid force to help people that they do not know, make it so regular guildies are always being excluded for non-guildies.</p><p>Yeah I would love what some of you are smoking.</p>

[Jal]

3 words.  Pick up raids.Raid guilds are not pick up raids and never will be, it's purely up to them if they let you in to get an update or as with RoK content get you flagged so you can get it with them.  Just because they have the access and the ability doesnt mean you should benefit from this without either paying them a collossal amount of plat or actually going through their recruitment process and joining them.

[Bledso]

<cite>Mirdo@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Melot@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ranja wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This post is an opinion of my own towards the Guk server.</p><p>Congratulations to the guilds that have the members to get their mythical weapons.  My small guild will not be able to get theirs because we are shut out of the high level guild raids because when we ask if we can raid with them, we get an emphasized "NO" in response. </p><p>It be a warm day in Everfrost when i see NPU, Troops of Doom, Keepers of Realm, OWG, etc...  actually say "Why don't we split our normal guild raid up and invite smaller guilds to play with us." </p><p>My guild has maybe 6 full time players in it and 12 total.   We are very casual players, who occassionally like to jump into a raid and learn the zones.    However, everytime I ask someone if i can join their raid I get a tell back saying, "We don't allow people outside our guild to raid with us."   Or I hear, "Stand by and if we have room we'll invite you, " only to know that the response will be, "Sorry, we filled it with our guild members." </p><p>You should be ashamed of yourselfs for being that greedy that you can't allow those of us who work 65 - 70 hours a week a chance to obtain the pleasure of raiding one the high end raid zones. </p><p>Currenly, I have one option if i want to raid and that's to leave the guild that have become my family and friends over the past 4+ years. </p></blockquote>So you want a better guild to drag you through content you could never get through yourself. You would probably wipe the raid if you joined it. Why should they let you ride their coattails?</blockquote><p>That is a huge assumption - simply because people have not raided people should not automatically dismiss them.   There is a difference between inexperience and class knowledge and the ability to follow instructions / directions.</p><p>Your 2nd point offers no counter point - why shouldn't the more experienced guilds do something nice for a community.   It seems most of the arguments are us vs them and "we are good so you are automatically not any good".</p><p>It is a game and it costs nothing to aid people for nothing other than an act of kindness or a few gold for repairs.</p><p>It seems the act of kindness is one thing that the majority of arguments here are dead set against.</p><p>Granted the OP could have titled this a bit better, but I notice a lot of angst amoung the hard core raiders which in turn also generates a lot of animosty towards you guys.</p><p>If there are spots open on a raid I find it extremely difficult to understand this power theme people seem to have here.   How about increasing your server repuatation and do some Norrath good for a change.  Don't sacrifice spots but if there are available slots - who really cares - it is just ego not to at that point and a sense that its pure superiority,an allbeit greed impression that is displayed.</p><p>Arguments should be more informative and in the form of debates / advice and not so much into generalities.</p></blockquote>Please find my posts in this thread and counter them. I expect something better than 'an act of kindness'. There are hundreds, if not, thousands of people in casual guilds per server. Just who should be singled out for this act of kindness? Which of our members should we tell can't raid that day because we are letting somebody we don't know raid with us?You say arguments should be informative and in the form of a debate. All you have offered is that strangers should be allowed to join a team of players that have possibly spent hundreds of hours raiding together, spent real money, in game money and experienced the joy and pain of beating this content 'for an act of kindness'. To me that is no argument at all. You might as well have said 'just because'.</blockquote><p>If you read the entire context it says not necessary to go out of one's way but if there are opportuinites (ie spots open) no one has offered any constructive opinions as to why not, other then they will cause wipes which is pure assumption not fact.</p><p>And I hope you are not suggesting that by "spending real money" you are breaking EULA rules to gain items to aid you in your quests.</p><p>You seem so extremely dead set against helping others - so don't.</p><p>An act of kindness in itself is just that, to stand alone on it's own merit - if you want to encapsulate and quantify who, what when and where then that defeats the notion of an "act of kindness" doesn't it.    No one is singling you out to do this but you argue the point that you seem the one who has to assume this responsibility when it means no such thing.</p><p>It is an open statement to anyone and everyone and just a point of view.     So you spent hundreds of hours raiding together what does that have to do with letting someone in need gain from that experience at absolutely no cost to you if you are going there anyways and have a spot open.</p><p>If you get no argument at all from this, then you are being driven by your own sense of ego and will not allow anyone to share in what you have and you then have become an isolitionist clan (guild) who are there for your own benefit and that's all you get from the game.  Top Dog's so to speak. Your choice - so be it - not the type of player mentality I would chose to be a part of but again your choice.</p><p>Where as others would decide that being in an MMO has more social interaction and would not mind someone coming along.   If you choose not to help then don't argue that others should not do it and I am not arguing that you or everyone should do it but I fail to see any solid arguments as to why not.</p>

[AegisCrown]

<cite>Melot@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mirdo@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Melot@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ranja wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This post is an opinion of my own towards the Guk server.</p><p>Congratulations to the guilds that have the members to get their mythical weapons.  My small guild will not be able to get theirs because we are shut out of the high level guild raids because when we ask if we can raid with them, we get an emphasized "NO" in response. </p><p>It be a warm day in Everfrost when i see NPU, Troops of Doom, Keepers of Realm, OWG, etc...  actually say "Why don't we split our normal guild raid up and invite smaller guilds to play with us." </p><p>My guild has maybe 6 full time players in it and 12 total.   We are very casual players, who occassionally like to jump into a raid and learn the zones.    However, everytime I ask someone if i can join their raid I get a tell back saying, "We don't allow people outside our guild to raid with us."   Or I hear, "Stand by and if we have room we'll invite you, " only to know that the response will be, "Sorry, we filled it with our guild members." </p><p>You should be ashamed of yourselfs for being that greedy that you can't allow those of us who work 65 - 70 hours a week a chance to obtain the pleasure of raiding one the high end raid zones. </p><p>Currenly, I have one option if i want to raid and that's to leave the guild that have become my family and friends over the past 4+ years. </p></blockquote>So you want a better guild to drag you through content you could never get through yourself. You would probably wipe the raid if you joined it. Why should they let you ride their coattails?</blockquote><p>That is a huge assumption - simply because people have not raided people should not automatically dismiss them.   There is a difference between inexperience and class knowledge and the ability to follow instructions / directions.</p><p>Your 2nd point offers no counter point - why shouldn't the more experienced guilds do something nice for a community.   It seems most of the arguments are us vs them and "we are good so you are automatically not any good".</p><p>It is a game and it costs nothing to aid people for nothing other than an act of kindness or a few gold for repairs.</p><p>It seems the act of kindness is one thing that the majority of arguments here are dead set against.</p><p>Granted the OP could have titled this a bit better, but I notice a lot of angst amoung the hard core raiders which in turn also generates a lot of animosty towards you guys.</p><p>If there are spots open on a raid I find it extremely difficult to understand this power theme people seem to have here.   How about increasing your server repuatation and do some Norrath good for a change.  Don't sacrifice spots but if there are available slots - who really cares - it is just ego not to at that point and a sense that its pure superiority,an allbeit greed impression that is displayed.</p><p>Arguments should be more informative and in the form of debates / advice and not so much into generalities.</p></blockquote>Please find my posts in this thread and counter them. I expect something better than 'an act of kindness'. There are hundreds, if not, thousands of people in casual guilds per server. Just who should be singled out for this act of kindness? Which of our members should we tell can't raid that day because we are letting somebody we don't know raid with us?You say arguments should be informative and in the form of a debate. All you have offered is that strangers should be allowed to join a team of players that have possibly spent hundreds of hours raiding together, spent real money, in game money and experienced the joy and pain of beating this content 'for an act of kindness'. To me that is no argument at all. You might as well have said 'just because'.</blockquote><p>If you read the entire context it says not necessary to go out of one's way but if there are opportuinites (ie spots open) no one has offered any constructive opinions as to why not, other then they will cause wipes which is pure assumption not fact.</p><p>And I hope you are not suggesting that by "spending real money" you are breaking EULA rules to gain items to aid you in your quests.</p><p>You seem so extremely dead set against helping others - so don't.</p><p>An act of kindness in itself is just that, to stand alone on it's own merit - if you want to encapsulate and quantify who, what when and where then that defeats the notion of an "act of kindness" doesn't it.    No one is singling you out to do this but you argue the point that you seem the one who has to assume this responsibility when it means no such thing.</p><p>It is an open statement to anyone and everyone and just a point of view.    <b> So you spent hundreds of hours raiding together </b>what does that have to do with letting someone in need gain from that experience at absolutely no cost to you if you are going there anyways and have a spot open.</p><p>If you get no argument at all from this, then you are being driven by your own sense of ego and will not allow anyone to share in what you have and you then have become an isolitionist clan (guild) who are there for your own benefit and that's all you get from the game.  Top Dog's so to speak. Your choice - so be it - not the type of player mentality I would chose to be a part of but again your choice.</p><p>Where as others would decide that being in an MMO has more social interaction and would not mind someone coming along.   If you choose not to help then don't argue that others should not do it and I am not arguing that you or everyone should do it but I fail to see any solid arguments as to why not.</p></blockquote>because the random person <b>didnt</b> spent the time or effort

[KBern]

<cite>Melot@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It is an open statement to anyone and everyone and just a point of view.     So you spent hundreds of hours raiding together what does that have to do with letting someone in need gain from that experience <span style="font-size: large;">at absolutely no cost to you</span> if you are going there anyways and have a spot open.</p></blockquote><p>And thats where you run off track.  It is a cost....every wipe is few more GP's in repairs. every wipe is people's time, every wipe is people expending poisons, and potions to have to waste the timers while rezzing and re-grouping.</p><p>And no, I am not saying every Joe will wipe a raid, but many times the wipes come from people being inexperienced at a fight, or just not paying attention.</p><p>Do not fool yourself into saying there is no cost, when there is potential direct costs from taking someone into a raid zone with you that has never been there before.</p>

[Zarador]

<cite></cite><blockquote><cite>Melot@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It is an open statement to anyone and everyone and just a point of view.     So you spent hundreds of hours raiding together what does that have to do with letting someone in need gain from that experience <span style="font-size: large;">at absolutely no cost to you</span> if you are going there anyways and have a spot open.</p></blockquote></blockquote>So I got to thinking.<i>People want Mythical Items and Fabled Gear, right?The items are just pixels and cost SoE absolutely nothing after they been developed to reproduce, right?Why not just hand them out to people that want them?</i>Uh oh, that's a dumb idea, right? Yep, it is.  Yes, Guild Membership has many rewards aside from raided goodies, however raided goodies is still one of those incentives that many people (even though they may not wish to admit it) look forward to.  Some people buy the Girl Scout Cookies because they like to help the Girl Scouts, others like the cookies. So, one of those <i>Membership Perks</i> in more than a few Guilds is the DKP System where a member contributes their time to the Guild and earns the right to bid on upgrades with those points.  In some Guilds it can take months before a member earns enough points to get significant upgrades.   DKP is there to demonstrate to both the new member and existing members who contributed to the Guild that we don't just gear you up and have you walk away taking advantage of our abilities. You have to demonstrate to us that your here for the Guild, not just the loot. How do you then turn around and explain that strangers are just here, tonight, for the loot? So you spend hundreds of hours building up that DKP, but tonight were going to be taking in some stranger who needs an upgrade.  Call it "kindness" and "community spirit" but I'm betting some members of that Guild are more than a little ticked off.Lets also keep in mind that part of running a Guild requires resource management.  We don't have enough time/people/raids to gear all 10 of everyone's alternate characters, therefore we don't gear alternates.  If an item happens to drop that no one wants, you still spend your DKP to get the item for your Alternate, if that's even permitted.  It discourages people from having 10 Mains in the Guild and choosing who to play based on the target.  So again, how do you explain to the member with the level 80 Alternate that his Alternate does not qualify for that Raid, while you take in a stranger? It's so easy to attach a "value" to an item if you bypass all it took to procure that item and just look at the couple hours of raiding in the end.  It's like saying that killing a level 80 mob only takes about 20 seconds, lets forget the hundred hours it took to get to level 75+ and focus on the effort of those 20 seconds.

[Ariste]

<cite>Melot@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mirdo@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Melot@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ranja wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>This post is an opinion of my own towards the Guk server.</p><p>Congratulations to the guilds that have the members to get their mythical weapons.  My small guild will not be able to get theirs because we are shut out of the high level guild raids because when we ask if we can raid with them, we get an emphasized "NO" in response. </p><p>It be a warm day in Everfrost when i see NPU, Troops of Doom, Keepers of Realm, OWG, etc...  actually say "Why don't we split our normal guild raid up and invite smaller guilds to play with us." </p><p>My guild has maybe 6 full time players in it and 12 total.   We are very casual players, who occassionally like to jump into a raid and learn the zones.    However, everytime I ask someone if i can join their raid I get a tell back saying, "We don't allow people outside our guild to raid with us."   Or I hear, "Stand by and if we have room we'll invite you, " only to know that the response will be, "Sorry, we filled it with our guild members." </p><p>You should be ashamed of yourselfs for being that greedy that you can't allow those of us who work 65 - 70 hours a week a chance to obtain the pleasure of raiding one the high end raid zones. </p><p>Currenly, I have one option if i want to raid and that's to leave the guild that have become my family and friends over the past 4+ years. </p></blockquote>So you want a better guild to drag you through content you could never get through yourself. You would probably wipe the raid if you joined it. Why should they let you ride their coattails?</blockquote><p>That is a huge assumption - simply because people have not raided people should not automatically dismiss them.   There is a difference between inexperience and class knowledge and the ability to follow instructions / directions.</p><p>Your 2nd point offers no counter point - why shouldn't the more experienced guilds do something nice for a community.   It seems most of the arguments are us vs them and "we are good so you are automatically not any good".</p><p>It is a game and it costs nothing to aid people for nothing other than an act of kindness or a few gold for repairs.</p><p>It seems the act of kindness is one thing that the majority of arguments here are dead set against.</p><p>Granted the OP could have titled this a bit better, but I notice a lot of angst amoung the hard core raiders which in turn also generates a lot of animosty towards you guys.</p><p>If there are spots open on a raid I find it extremely difficult to understand this power theme people seem to have here.   How about increasing your server repuatation and do some Norrath good for a change.  Don't sacrifice spots but if there are available slots - who really cares - it is just ego not to at that point and a sense that its pure superiority,an allbeit greed impression that is displayed.</p><p>Arguments should be more informative and in the form of debates / advice and not so much into generalities.</p></blockquote>Please find my posts in this thread and counter them. I expect something better than 'an act of kindness'. There are hundreds, if not, thousands of people in casual guilds per server. Just who should be singled out for this act of kindness? Which of our members should we tell can't raid that day because we are letting somebody we don't know raid with us?You say arguments should be informative and in the form of a debate. All you have offered is that strangers should be allowed to join a team of players that have possibly spent hundreds of hours raiding together, spent real money, in game money and experienced the joy and pain of beating this content 'for an act of kindness'. To me that is no argument at all. You might as well have said 'just because'.</blockquote><p>If you read the entire context it says not necessary to go out of one's way but if there are opportuinites (ie spots open) no one has offered any constructive opinions as to why not, other then they will cause wipes which is pure assumption not fact.</p><p>And I hope you are not suggesting that by "spending real money" you are breaking EULA rules to gain items to aid you in your quests.</p><p>You seem so extremely dead set against helping others - so don't.</p><p>An act of kindness in itself is just that, to stand alone on it's own merit - if you want to encapsulate and quantify who, what when and where then that defeats the notion of an "act of kindness" doesn't it.    No one is singling you out to do this but you argue the point that you seem the one who has to assume this responsibility when it means no such thing.</p><p>It is an open statement to anyone and everyone and just a point of view.     So you spent hundreds of hours raiding together what does that have to do with letting someone in need gain from that experience at absolutely no cost to you if you are going there anyways and have a spot open.</p><p>If you get no argument at all from this, then you are being driven by your own sense of ego and will not allow anyone to share in what you have and you then have become an isolitionist clan (guild) who are there for your own benefit and that's all you get from the game.  Top Dog's so to speak. Your choice - so be it - not the type of player mentality I would chose to be a part of but again your choice.</p><p>Where as others would decide that being in an MMO has more social interaction and would not mind someone coming along.   If you choose not to help then don't argue that others should not do it and I am not arguing that you or everyone should do it but I fail to see any solid arguments as to why not.</p></blockquote>To explain the following statement would take many, many pages, so I will throw it out there in hopes that you might analyze it and understand:Acting in one's own self-interest is <b>not</b> morally wrong. Moreover, it is only through people acting in their own self-interest that society survives.If you have not helped me get where I am, then I have no moral obligation to help you get there either. If I help you, I assume that I will be paid back in full. This is the implicit agreement that is the foundation of all casual and raiding guilds. If you join my guild, I know that you will help me in the future by showing up to raids. I am therefore willing to help you by doing the same. I am not willing, however - and nor should I be - to drag you along for charity. It's not that I am elitist scum, and it's not that I don't care about others. It's that I simply am not in the business of handing out what is not earned, because to do so - <i>that</i> is morally wrong.

[Circadian]

<p>I haven't read any replies yet. I hit reply as soon as I saw this post so if I echo any sentiments shoot me. </p><p><span style="color: #ff00ff;">when we ask if we can raid with them, we get an emphasized "NO" in response.</span> 1^st off, being in a raiding guild is a commitment. Normally you have attendance percentages to meet as a player and as a guild / raid leader you need to make sure your raiders are taken care of. A raid is 24 players if you recruit a strict 24 god forbid one night someone's internet goes out and another persons dog get sick. So you over recruit a tiny bit because its not realistic for 24 people to maintain 100% attendance 5-7 days a week. I would imagine most raid guilds run between a 25-32 man roster to avoid having nights where your guild just cant raid. So running a 25-32 man roster SOMBODY who is online Sits and doesn't get to raid. Somebody with attendance % requirement who has made a commitment to that guild as well as at least 23 other players to be there and ready if needed. These people have gone through an application process in most cases and normally are voted on by the other members of the guild after x period of time to see if they can become members themselves. You want to talk about greed? Why do you deserve there raid spot over them?</p><p><span style="color: #ff00ff;">It be a warm day in Everfrost when i see NPU, Troops of Doom, Keepers of Realm, OWG, etc...  actually say "Why don't we split our normal guild raid up and invite smaller guilds to play with us." </span>Why? Because they have found a formula for success and being successful it is now there responsibility to ensure the other guilds on the server follow in the same patter? WRONG!</p><p><span style="color: #ff00ff;">My guild has maybe 6 full time players in it and 12 total.   We are very casual players, who occassionally like to jump into a raid and learn the zones.    However, everytime I ask someone if i can join their raid I get a tell back saying, "We don't allow people outside our guild to raid with us."   Or I hear, "Stand by and if we have room we'll invite you, " only to know that the response will be, "Sorry, we filled it with our guild members." </span>See my comment above about becoming a raider.</p><p><span style="color: #ff00ff;">You should be ashamed of yourselfs for being that greedy that you can't allow those of us who work 65 - 70 hours a week a chance to obtain the pleasure of raiding one the high end raid zones. </span>You have selected a life style. Either you are in a situation where you HAVE to work 65-70 hours a week or that you just like the additional income overtime provides for you. That is more then fine and totally acceptable. People who raid 5-7 nights a week have set their priorities. Should they blame you for not being available to raid when they raid? </p><p><span style="color: #ff00ff;">Currenly, I have one option if i want to raid and that's to leave the guild that have become my family and friends over the past 4+ years. </span>Raiders TAKE what they want. The make sacrifices they go out in force, they ban together to best seemingly insurmountable odds. You can't be afraid to jump in 2 feet 1^st or you won't be a successful raider. If your work schedule opens up and your available to meet the attendance requirements of a raiding guild then app to one. Your true friends will understand. The boundaries of friendship should expand beyond a guild tag, and if it doesn't then that's not a friend you should waist your time with. </p><p>You do not sound like a raider to me from reading your post. What are you going to do the 1^st night in a new zone and your 2 mobs down from completing the zone and its 12am and you have to be at work at 6? As a raider you push through that pain and suck it up.  You sound like someone who would readily and frequently express discontent and distaste for anything that didn't suit your fancy. </p><p>Raiding is not Hello Kitty Adventure Island. It's go hard or go home. You EARN your spot in a raiding guild why should some n00bie get your spot one night in a raid just because the guild leader or raid leader decided to be charitable? </p><p>Suck it up man! You can't raid because you aren't ready to make that type of commitment. And asking those who have to set aside and let you come in for a ride along is just absurd. </p>

[Kaalenarc]

<p><span style="color: #ffff00;">As much as I personally would love to see the uber leet raid guilds , any one of them , on any server, say "hey  - we are going to take one person a night to help the server get its Mythicals" - I know that thats never going to happen. Hell, I'd even be glad to pay a fee, if they were so inclined.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;"> They are , however, right when they say that it simply takes a LOT of work on these new zones. Its ungodly hard and takes a dedicated group of folks working together to attain it. Its hard. </span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;"> Do I think most raid guilds are greedy? Maybe - I think theres a certain personality type thats drawn to the higher end-game, and many of them use their accomplishments as a sort of self-esteem booster. But, do they work harder than everyone else and have the right to thump their chests a little bit if they want? Well, yeah, they do.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;"> Im hopeful that maybe someday while those same guilds are off raiding the t10 content, that I'll get my mythical. i dont expect any of the uber guilds on AB to spontaneously invite me to raid.  (though - seriously  - Im in if you do LOL)</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">I think that the bottom line for me on this one is: While I can both understand and even share in the frustration in SOE releasing content that most players will never even see, let alone beat, its not the fault of the elite few who can accomplish these things. </span></p>

[Creyzee]

<p>Our server holds open EH raids. Next expansion, they will probably have removed any flagging requirements and you will see open VP raids as well. </p>

[AegisCrown]

im really hoping they dont remove the flagging requirements

[KBern]

<cite>Coel@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>im really hoping they dont remove the flagging requirements</blockquote><p>There would be no need to remove the flag requirements.  If you cannot beat the mobs needed for the flag, chances are you are not going to far into VP.</p><p>Flags suck for many reasons but they are a fairly decent indicator if your raid force will be successful in the zone you are trying to access.</p><p>If a raid force cannot beat the Overking in Chardok, Venril Sather in Sebilis, and the Leviathan in Jarsath...don't even try VP.</p><p>And yes, I am sure I will be called elitist again for stating some information for people.</p>

[Trynnus1]

<cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Coel@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>im really hoping they dont remove the flagging requirements</blockquote><p>There would be no need to remove the flag requirements.  If you cannot beat the mobs needed for the flag, chances are you are not going to far into VP.</p><p>Flags suck for many reasons but they are a fairly decent indicator if your raid force will be successful in the zone you are trying to access.</p><p>If a raid force cannot beat the Overking in Chardok, Venril Sather in Sebilis, and the Leviathan in Jarsath...don't even try VP.</p><p>And yes, I am sure I will be called elitist again for stating some information for people.</p></blockquote>Dont know if anyone else has noted that flagging also severly limits the selling of loot rights.

[Rqron]

<cite>Trynnus1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Coel@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>im really hoping they dont remove the flagging requirements</blockquote><p>There would be no need to remove the flag requirements.  If you cannot beat the mobs needed for the flag, chances are you are not going to far into VP.</p><p>Flags suck for many reasons but they are a fairly decent indicator if your raid force will be successful in the zone you are trying to access.</p><p>If a raid force cannot beat the Overking in Chardok, Venril Sather in Sebilis, and the Leviathan in Jarsath...don't even try VP.</p><p>And yes, I am sure I will be called elitist again for stating some information for people.</p></blockquote>Dont know if anyone else has noted that flagging also severly limits the selling of loot rights.</blockquote>And hooray for that.. it was time that SOE implemented some feature to curb this.J.C.

[AegisCrown]

<cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trynnus1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Coel@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>im really hoping they dont remove the flagging requirements</blockquote><p>There would be no need to remove the flag requirements.  If you cannot beat the mobs needed for the flag, chances are you are not going to far into VP.</p><p>Flags suck for many reasons but they are a fairly decent indicator if your raid force will be successful in the zone you are trying to access.</p><p>If a raid force cannot beat the Overking in Chardok, Venril Sather in Sebilis, and the Leviathan in Jarsath...don't even try VP.</p><p>And yes, I am sure I will be called elitist again for stating some information for people.</p></blockquote>Dont know if anyone else has noted that flagging also severly limits the selling of loot rights.</blockquote>And hooray for that.. it was time that SOE implemented some feature to curb this.J.C.</blockquote>lol well by doing so it also means that the more casual players have even less of a chance at getting some loot

[Rqron]

<cite>Coel@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Trynnus1 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Coel@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>im really hoping they dont remove the flagging requirements</blockquote><p>There would be no need to remove the flag requirements.  If you cannot beat the mobs needed for the flag, chances are you are not going to far into VP.</p><p>Flags suck for many reasons but they are a fairly decent indicator if your raid force will be successful in the zone you are trying to access.</p><p>If a raid force cannot beat the Overking in Chardok, Venril Sather in Sebilis, and the Leviathan in Jarsath...don't even try VP.</p><p>And yes, I am sure I will be called elitist again for stating some information for people.</p></blockquote>Dont know if anyone else has noted that flagging also severly limits the selling of loot rights.</blockquote>And hooray for that.. it was time that SOE implemented some feature to curb this.J.C.</blockquote>lol well by doing so it also means that the more casual players have even less of a chance at getting some loot</blockquote>And this is fine, I always thought this was one exploid they should fix even though several people at soe stated its not against the rules i.m.h.o. it was clearly against the intent on how the game was  to be played otherwise there would be no "no trade" tag on the gear..anyways, it is telling how on one side it is argued that raid guilds are no charity and why should they help anyone to get something that in they're mind they did not earn ( this at least to me seems to be the underlying defense of the raid guild members here) and yet as soon as there was coin to be made they gladly stopped the whole raid, advertised the sale by spamming the hell out of the lvl chat, temporarily dropped one of the raid member and invited someone that mostly paid a large amount of plat for a piece of gear he DID NOT EARN ..all under the disguise of helping the casual players to decent gear...talk about double standards here.J.C.

[KBern]

<cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote>And this is fine, I always thought this was one exploid they should fix even though several people at soe stated its not against the rules i.m.h.o. it was clearly against the intent on how the game was  to be played otherwise there would be no "no trade" tag on the gear..anyways, it is telling how on one side it is argued that raid guilds are no charity and why should they help anyone to get something that in they're mind they did not earn ( this at least to me seems to be the underlying defense of the raid guild members here) and yet as soon as there was coin to be made they gladly stopped the whole raid, advertised the sale by spamming the hell out of the lvl chat, temporarily dropped one of the raid member and invited someone that mostly paid a large amount of plat for a piece of gear he DID NOT EARN ..all under the disguise of helping the casual players to decent gear...talking about double standards here.J.C.</blockquote><p>Don't confuse that with anything more than what it is at face value.  For the guilds that do that I have never seen them spout off as if they are pretending to do some altrustic service as you say, it is simply for profit.</p><p>There is no double standard either for those guilds.  You want their help for free, then keep begging and hoping, you want them to do something for you then be prepared to pay for it.</p><p>No hidden agenda at all and no double standard to them.</p>

[Windowlicker]

I'm curious why other forms of greed aren't being addressed.- What about all the non-raiders that tradeskill and mark up prices sometimes several plat over cost?  - What about the non raiders that run instances, win masters, then list them at silly prices?Why oh why isn't sony doing something about this problem?

[Rqron]

<cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote>And this is fine, I always thought this was one exploid they should fix even though several people at soe stated its not against the rules i.m.h.o. it was clearly against the intent on how the game was  to be played otherwise there would be no "no trade" tag on the gear..anyways, it is telling how on one side it is argued that raid guilds are no charity and why should they help anyone to get something that in they're mind they did not earn ( this at least to me seems to be the underlying defense of the raid guild members here) and yet as soon as there was coin to be made they gladly stopped the whole raid, advertised the sale by spamming the hell out of the lvl chat, temporarily dropped one of the raid member and invited someone that mostly paid a large amount of plat for a piece of gear he DID NOT EARN ..all under the disguise of helping the casual players to decent gear...talking about double standards here.J.C.</blockquote><p>Don't confuse that with anything more than what it is at face value.  For the guilds that do that I have never seen them spout off as if they are pretending to do some altrustic service as you say, it is simply for profit.</p><p>There is no double standard either for those guilds.  You want their help for free, then keep begging and hoping, you want them to do something for you then be prepared to pay for it.</p><p>No hidden agenda at all and no double standard to them.</p></blockquote>Hmm I do not believe anyone ever asked to have anything for free..but then maybe some did...and yes, I did see some of the raid guilds  spout off how they help the casual community to get decent gear by selling looting rights. In several treads in the past where the merits of loot rights selling was discussed..but anyway, I am glad SOE made it harder to do so and hope they find ways to prevent this across the board in the future.I personally don't want anyone's help for free..Gah I don't even want the epic in any form fabled or mythical...fabled is not worth the effort, the stats suck and mythical not worth my time. I have better things to do then to suck up to hard core raiders with god complexes in order to get a piece of gear. This is a game and nothing in it is worth any hassle one way or another...its  something that I do for enjoyment not work.  As I see it, If someone wants it hard enough he should get a chance to do it ..one way or another..telling him to go get his own raid guild in order to get one piece of gear is laughable. Telling a player  that he does not deserve this piece of gear does not cut it either when on the other hand raid guilds don't make the same distinction as soon as there is coin to be made.  I know that there are raid guilds out there that never sell looting rights and I applaud and respect them for doing this. All others have double standards and many that have posted here and in the similar tread on this forum and that are so fiercely argue that the player has not earned this piece of gear do belong to guilds that I have seen advertise looting rights sale in the past.  It is my opinion that this is not so much a "he did not earned it" issue as a "omg someone else has this piece of gear I am not special anymore" issue. What is the answer to this dilemma? I do not know, The mightier then thou attitude of some players in the raiding community is not helping the issue either. As long as members of the raiding community think that they're 15 buck a month subscription fee is of more value then the subscription fee of a casual player just because they group with 23 others and push buttons instead 5 others and push the same buttons there will be problems. Because the truth is ..it is not . J.C.

[Rqron]

<cite>Zahne@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'm curious why other forms of greed aren't being addressed.- What about all the non-raiders that tradeskill and mark up prices sometimes several plat over cost?  - What about the non raiders that run instances, win masters, then list them at silly prices?Why oh why isn't sony doing something about this problem?</blockquote>Because those are tradeable items and both camps are guilty of doing it :=)J.C.

[Hamervelder]

This is one thing that I have to admit sets the raiding guilds on AB apart from .... other servers.  It's quite common to see folks from TBA and other top guilds on AB helping folks from other guilds.  I'm glad that we don't have so much of this elitist arrogance on AB that I read about on other servers' forums.

[Ranja]

What is ironic about all this is that the same "casual" player that says he/shje does not have time to raid spends countless hours running hte same instances over and over.There are alot of "casuals" that have much higher playtime than "raiders". Hell, I was in a casual guild for a bit and they had players on all the time at every hour doing nothing but running the same instances and tradeskilling. I am in a different guild that is successful raiding and no one plays nearly as much as I saw in the "casual" guild. I thought raiding took a long time too until I realized it was the guild doing the raiding and not the raiding....lolMaybe because usually casual = unorganizedJust a comment on the casual vs. raider argument that this thread has turned into.

[MullenSkywatcher]

I think you're all greedy for spending your subscription money on an MMO when you could be donating it to charity.  Wait, I pay subscription money too!  Crap!

[Creyzee]

<cite>MullenSkywatcher wrote:</cite><blockquote> Wait, I pay subscription money too!  Crap!</blockquote><p>Yeah, but did you earn that money on your own or did your mama give it to you? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Gratuitous yo mama joke brought to in honor of April Fools Day!</p>

[MullenSkywatcher]

<cite>Creyzee wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>MullenSkywatcher wrote:</cite><blockquote> Wait, I pay subscription money too!  Crap!</blockquote><p>Yeah, but did you earn that money on your own or did your mama give it to you? <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Gratuitous yo mama joke brought to in honor of April Fools Day!</p></blockquote>Umm, my mom. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />   *shuffles feet* 

[Vireck]

<cite>Corndogs@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Would you like some cheese with that whine?</blockquote>What a fine place this forum is.Where one can express his feelings about a particular aspect and have the guarantee some inconsiderate [Removed for Content], who wouldn't know what said feelings are like, will make a moronic statement like the quoted one above.At least we know it's going to happen, right?

[Zeuhl]

<cite>TheRegulator wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Corndogs@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Would you like some cheese with that whine?</blockquote>What a fine place this forum is.Where one can express his feelings about a particular aspect and have the guarantee some inconsiderate [I cannot control my vocabulary], who wouldn't know what said feelings are like, will make a moronic statement like the quoted one above.At least we know it's going to happen, right?</blockquote>  With all the flaming,bickering, and complaining going on in this thread this one the one statement you had an issue with? This is proof that this thread needs to die.

[Terron]

<cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>  Or I hear, "Stand by and if we have room we'll invite you, " only to know that the response will be, "Sorry, we filled it with our guild members." </p><p>You should be ashamed of yourselfs for being that greedy that you can't allow those of us who work 65 - 70 hours a week a chance to obtain the pleasure of raiding one the high end raid zones. </p></blockquote>You think a guild should not give priority to its own members on raids?Of course a large guild will be able to fill popular raids from its own members, and so will rarely invite outsiders.That is nothing for them to be ashamed off.If you find there aren't the opportunities to do the raids you want, then you could try organising them yourself.You would probably need to work up to the top end raids, just as the raiding guilds did.Though I could understand not wanting to do that with the hours you are working.

[KBern]

<cite>Ranja wrote:</cite><blockquote>What is ironic about all this is that the same "casual" player that says he/shje does not have time to raid spends countless hours running hte same instances over and over.There are alot of "casuals" that have much higher playtime than "raiders". Hell, I was in a casual guild for a bit and they had players on all the time at every hour doing nothing but running the same instances and tradeskilling. I am in a different guild that is successful raiding and no one plays nearly as much as I saw in the "casual" guild. I thought raiding took a long time too until I realized it was the guild doing the raiding and not the raiding....lolMaybe because usually casual = unorganizedJust a comment on the casual vs. raider argument that this thread has turned into.</blockquote><p>You cannot post nonsense logic like that!  It waters down the argument of the self proclaimed casual players.  How can they keep saying raiders have no life and they have no time to raid if you make them realize they actually play MORE than many people who raid.</p><p>Hush...let them live in denial....after all, its not just a river in Egypt!</p>

[Kaalenarc]

<cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ranja wrote:</cite><blockquote>What is ironic about all this is that the same "casual" player that says he/shje does not have time to raid spends countless hours running hte same instances over and over.There are alot of "casuals" that have much higher playtime than "raiders". Hell, I was in a casual guild for a bit and they had players on all the time at every hour doing nothing but running the same instances and tradeskilling. I am in a different guild that is successful raiding and no one plays nearly as much as I saw in the "casual" guild. I thought raiding took a long time too until I realized it was the guild doing the raiding and not the raiding....lolMaybe because usually casual = unorganizedJust a comment on the casual vs. raider argument that this thread has turned into.</blockquote><p>You cannot post nonsense logic like that!  It waters down the argument of the self proclaimed casual players.  How can they keep saying raiders have no life and they have no time to raid if you make them realize they actually play MORE than many people who raid.</p><p>Hush...let them live in denial....after all, its not just a river in Egypt!</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">There is nothing wrong with casual play.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">There is nothing wrong with hardcore raid play.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">There is much wrong with smug, self-aggrandizing, condescending posts</span>. </p>

[KBern]

<cite>Kaalenarc@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Saurakk@Guk wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ranja wrote:</cite><blockquote>What is ironic about all this is that the same "casual" player that says he/shje does not have time to raid spends countless hours running hte same instances over and over.There are alot of "casuals" that have much higher playtime than "raiders". Hell, I was in a casual guild for a bit and they had players on all the time at every hour doing nothing but running the same instances and tradeskilling. I am in a different guild that is successful raiding and no one plays nearly as much as I saw in the "casual" guild. I thought raiding took a long time too until I realized it was the guild doing the raiding and not the raiding....lolMaybe because usually casual = unorganizedJust a comment on the casual vs. raider argument that this thread has turned into.</blockquote><p>You cannot post nonsense logic like that!  It waters down the argument of the self proclaimed casual players.  How can they keep saying raiders have no life and they have no time to raid if you make them realize they actually play MORE than many people who raid.</p><p>Hush...let them live in denial....after all, its not just a river in Egypt!</p></blockquote><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">There is nothing wrong with casual play.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">There is nothing wrong with hardcore raid play.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">There is much wrong with smug, self-aggrandizing, condescending posts</span>. </p></blockquote><p>Well when people like to lump a playstyle into a personality type, and pretend all raiders have some pre-determined genetic code, it gets very old.</p><p>If people don't want to be spoken down to, or be patronized for idiotic bigoted statements, then maybe they should read before they hit the enter button.</p><p>I have no love lost for any body who tries to dictate to others how they should play the game based on their own preferences.</p><p>When people stop trying to tell me and others how to play based on their own opinion and available play time, I will stop mocking their whiny selfish selves.</p>

[simpwrx02]

<p>Yes an average night of raiding for my guild is 3 hours, I am guessing that it takes ~2-3 hours to do all the herioc instances, I raid 4 times a week.... I guess 12 hours is hardcore as we are in VP.......  I do spend most of my otehr time playign alts or doing instance runs so I can upgrade my RoK raid gear.  We do occassional spend more than 3 hours in a raid, but that is when we are learnign a new named fight and makign real progress then we might add an extra 30-45 minutes to the raid.</p><p>Oh and we have to sit our own guildies already to try to beat the encounter with the best we can muster, why would we sit another one simply so you could get YOUR update and provide much less than the person who was sat. We have yet to kill Drussk or Nexona, but we will probably very soon as we are handling Drussk nicely down to about 70% and a we sets of adds, we just need to consolidate everything and hope the tank dosent just get slaughtered with massive fast hits ~30k in 2 seconds is hard to overcome.  </p>

[phoenixshard]

<cite>JmacF wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Using mythical weapon was the wrong thing to say:  hell, I'm bottled necked on MC for the fabled version because the guild tank just isn't capable of handling that zone in itself. </p><p>Do i sacrafice my family so i can join a raid guild?  No.   I made that choice 4 years ago when i joined the game not to allow the addiction of the game to interfere with the time needed for a healthy happy family. </p><p>What i'm asking is why can't the raid guilds take the time to bring in people in my boat and teach them?   I was lucky enough to get in a few PU raids to Labs and Deathtoll when the cap was 70 to learn them enough to start some of my own pick up raids.   </p><p>i guess they are scared that they will have to spend a few plat to fix their uber armor for a few wipes if they invite the outsider into their precious static raid.</p></blockquote>Simply put, because they don't have to.   What you're asking them pretty much is to accept someone into their raid that knows nothing about the zone and may not be able to handle the mobs in the zone.  And yes, one of the reasons that they may not want you in is to keep their repair costs down.  If you want in that bad though, why not offer to pay for any repairs for all the members of the raid gear.  They should not be expected to incur a loss that they have a better chance to avoid if they have someone that knows the strats they use down, and knows the the team well enough to know what to expect without being told.

[Amalthea]

Come on, guys...you've already been reminded once to keep your replies far away from the realm of personal attacks.  Please think twice before you click that "Submit" button!

[Svann]

Back in wow we used to take people from outside the guild all the time.  But we had to stop because there was an item we wanted to keep in guild and it caused too much friction when we decided non-guildies could not "roll" on it.

[Zarador]

The Guild also has a responsibility to it's members as well.  There are plenty of boring things that go on behind the scenes to level a Guild.  There are plenty of boring encounters that a Guild does just to get their members to be effective at raiding.  You don't log in one day with a brand new Guild of level 80 Characters that never raided in this game before and say we have the people, lets go do mythical encounters.  For that matter, they farmed out the gear in many cases that allow them to survive such encounters.  I can well recall raiding in Plane of Time in Everquest after doing all the access quests with the Guild, gearing up the Guild and well before that getting the VT keys with the Guild.Guilds, like players (because their made up of players) have goals in mind as well as "carrots on a stick".  Sure, it seems dull now, but the payoff will be awesome, we will be able to do things you could never dream up as a "casual" player or a member of a low level Guild.  So how do you later explain that "Were going to be nice and take in people that did not stick through the hard times and get them their stuff tonight"?

[Zeuhl]

<p>  I agree with a lot of the other posters saying that those guilds don't owe anyone outside their guilds anything. They've worked hard to be where they are, just like my guild has been working hard to get where we are. My guild bring in outsiders for raids but they are always members of our alliance.  We've got a good core of 18-28 members that raid every week but we maintain alliance times from when the guild was smaller and they have the access to our site to sign up for raids. Lately there has been an influx of them joining our guild which has improved our guild as a whole as well as our progression.</p><p>  You can't just jump into many of these zones and expect to get your mythical kill. When I joined my guild back in october they were still raiding KoS lol and couldn't clear any of the EoF zones. When RoK came out we took 3 weeks off from raiding to level out toons to 80 and hit instances. For the last few months we've been farming the crap out of EoF getting geared and are now starting to progress through RoK. We've had many good nights and many horrible nights. I wouldn't be happy to drag along anyone who hasn't put in any of that effort to get where we are.</p><p>  For all the "casuals", and I use that term loosely, if you don't want to put in that effort or commitment don't expect to get your mythical till next expansion. You only options, in my opinion, are to make a raiding alliance, try and recruit raiders for your own guild, or app to an established raid force. My guild personally while we maintain a couple of alliances can usually field our own raid force. However, we are not strictly raiders we have many members who don't raid and are content to craft and fun instances. This just shows that if you do decide to build your own force that you don't have to do so to the exclusion of everything else. </p><p>  To the OP you don't have to leave your friends if you want to join a raiding guild. If they are truly your friends your guild tag shouldn't matter. I have many friends on my server who are all in different guilds. What I did was when I joined my current guild I was a co-leader of a "family/casual" guild. We executed a guild merger with a larger more established guild that fit the needs of all of our members. Sure there were a couple of folks who didn't make the change over but we made sure they found homes before my guild was disbanded. Even out of the members that came with us there are several who either don't raid or aren't at the level to raid yet. In the end it was one of the best moves I've made since not only have I made more friends, but I've gotten to be a big part of the building/progression of a great raid force.</p>

[Vireck]

<cite>Zeuhl@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>TheRegulator wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Corndogs@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>Would you like some cheese with that whine?</blockquote>What a fine place this forum is.Where one can express his feelings about a particular aspect and have the guarantee some inconsiderate [I cannot control my vocabulary], who wouldn't know what said feelings are like, will make a moronic statement like the quoted one above.At least we know it's going to happen, right?</blockquote>  With all the flaming,bickering, and complaining going on in this thread this one the one statement you had an issue with? This is proof that this thread needs to die.</blockquote>I was simply stating a fact.I wouldn't bother reading through 12 pages of "You're wrong!" "Nu-uh! You Are!".

[Zeuhl]

<p>  Well there was room for actual discussion in this thread, sadly some can't reason with others without resorting to childish name calling. So I'll give ya that one hehe. </p><p>  I read through all these pages because this post points fingers at my chosen playstyle and I chose to defend it. Now I must say that you obviously did read through several of these pages if you picked out my quote so:</p><p> Touche` Sir! lol</p>

[WeatherMan]

<cite>Svann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Back in wow we used to take people from outside the guild all the time.  But we had to stop because there was an item we wanted to keep in guild and it caused too much friction when we decided non-guildies could not "roll" on it.</blockquote>Ouch...a raid participant wasn't allowed to roll on a certain item?  One they could possibly use/benefit from?  Mega-ouch.  Yah, I could see where that would cause more than a point or two of contention.  Particularly if the raid leader didn't say anything ahead of time.I can't think of any item in EQ2 that would engender that sort of restriction...in all the raids I've been in (or watched over the wife's shoulder as she raided), if Item X is for Templars (for example), the raid's templars roll, and everyone else declines.  If no one can use it, then it's a FFA (transmuting considerations notwithstanding).  Of course, since leaving Everfrost and coming to LDL, I have had a refreshing change in raid leader quality - every leader I (and the missus) have had thus far have been...well...actual leaders...and the 'me me me' attitude of the old server's raid leaders I was unfortunate enough to interact with is gloriously absent. 

[Zeuhl]

<cite>WeatherMan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Svann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Back in wow we used to take people from outside the guild all the time.  But we had to stop because there was an item we wanted to keep in guild and it caused too much friction when we decided non-guildies could not "roll" on it.</blockquote><b>Ouch...a raid participant wasn't allowed to roll on a certain item?  One they could possibly use/benefit from?  Mega-ouch</b>.  Yah, I could see where that would cause more than a point or two of contention.  Particularly if the raid leader didn't say anything ahead of time.I can't think of any item in EQ2 that would engender that sort of restriction...in all the raids I've been in (or watched over the wife's shoulder as she raided), if Item X is for Templars (for example), the raid's templars roll, and everyone else declines.  If no one can use it, then it's a FFA (transmuting considerations notwithstanding).  Of course, since leaving Everfrost and coming to LDL, I have had a refreshing change in raid leader quality - every leader I (and the missus) have had thus far have been...well...actual leaders...and the 'me me me' attitude of the old server's raid leaders I was unfortunate enough to interact with is gloriously absent.  </blockquote>  Not sure if the raid leader said something before the raid, but how do you think their actual members would have felt if that item went to a non-guildy? Especially if there's a good chance they probably wouldn't ever see that person again?

[WeatherMan]

<cite>Zeuhl@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>WeatherMan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Svann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Back in wow we used to take people from outside the guild all the time.  But we had to stop because there was an item we wanted to keep in guild and it caused too much friction when we decided non-guildies could not "roll" on it.</blockquote><b>Ouch...a raid participant wasn't allowed to roll on a certain item?  One they could possibly use/benefit from?  Mega-ouch</b>.  Yah, I could see where that would cause more than a point or two of contention.  Particularly if the raid leader didn't say anything ahead of time.I can't think of any item in EQ2 that would engender that sort of restriction...in all the raids I've been in (or watched over the wife's shoulder as she raided), if Item X is for Templars (for example), the raid's templars roll, and everyone else declines.  If no one can use it, then it's a FFA (transmuting considerations notwithstanding).  Of course, since leaving Everfrost and coming to LDL, I have had a refreshing change in raid leader quality - every leader I (and the missus) have had thus far have been...well...actual leaders...and the 'me me me' attitude of the old server's raid leaders I was unfortunate enough to interact with is gloriously absent.  </blockquote>  Not sure if the raid leader said something before the raid, but how do you think their actual members would have felt if that item went to a non-guildy? Especially if there's a good chance they probably wouldn't ever see that person again?</blockquote>You have a valid point.  But consider:Let us assume, for argument's sake, that non-guildie is as proficient a raider as anyone else standing over the item in question.  For one thing, he gave no less effort (presumably) in that raid than anyone else.  For another, depending on the role he played (tank, healer, and so on), maybe his participation was crucial in even obtaining that item (bringing down the mob who dropped it, or what have you).  And his repair bill is likely to be just as arduous as any other member of the raid - perhaps more, depending on what he did.Now he is told that he can't even roll on the item in question?  An item that might not even be there but for his contribution to the overall effort?Even if I were an ardent raid guild apologist, that smacks of favoritism and elitist behavior.  And it is a perfect example of why some (although admittedly, not all) raid guilds could quickly garner a rather unsavory reputation - for raid guilds in general (in many cases, undeservedly), and that raid guild in particular (likely <i><b>VERY</b></i> deservedly).  And it flies in the face of the entire 'effort = reward' argument.  He put in the effort, now he's being sodomized.  An overly-dramatic term, yes, but it illustrates the point.Mind you, I am not saying that this <i><b>IS</b></i> what happened (nor am I accusing Svann's WoW guild of this specifically).  But I <i><b>AM</b></i> saying that it is a possibility.  If my old guild on my previous server was involved, I would even say likely.

[Oh]

<cite>WeatherMan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zeuhl@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>WeatherMan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Svann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Back in wow we used to take people from outside the guild all the time.  But we had to stop because there was an item we wanted to keep in guild and it caused too much friction when we decided non-guildies could not "roll" on it.</blockquote><b>Ouch...a raid participant wasn't allowed to roll on a certain item?  One they could possibly use/benefit from?  Mega-ouch</b>.  Yah, I could see where that would cause more than a point or two of contention.  Particularly if the raid leader didn't say anything ahead of time.I can't think of any item in EQ2 that would engender that sort of restriction...in all the raids I've been in (or watched over the wife's shoulder as she raided), if Item X is for Templars (for example), the raid's templars roll, and everyone else declines.  If no one can use it, then it's a FFA (transmuting considerations notwithstanding).  Of course, since leaving Everfrost and coming to LDL, I have had a refreshing change in raid leader quality - every leader I (and the missus) have had thus far have been...well...actual leaders...and the 'me me me' attitude of the old server's raid leaders I was unfortunate enough to interact with is gloriously absent.  </blockquote>  Not sure if the raid leader said something before the raid, but how do you think their actual members would have felt if that item went to a non-guildy? Especially if there's a good chance they probably wouldn't ever see that person again?</blockquote>You have a valid point.  But consider:Let us assume, for argument's sake, that non-guildie is as proficient a raider as anyone else standing over the item in question.  For one thing, he gave no less effort (presumably) in that raid than anyone else.  For another, depending on the role he played (tank, healer, and so on), maybe his participation was crucial in even obtaining that item (bringing down the mob who dropped it, or what have you).  And his repair bill is likely to be just as arduous as any other member of the raid - perhaps more, depending on what he did.Now he is told that he can't even roll on the item in question?  An item that might not even be there but for his contribution to the overall effort?Even if I were an ardent raid guild apologist, that smacks of favoritism and elitist behavior.  And it is a perfect example of why some (although admittedly, not all) raid guilds could quickly garner a rather unsavory reputation - for raid guilds in general (in many cases, undeservedly), and that raid guild in particular (likely <i><b>VERY</b></i> deservedly).  And it flies in the face of the entire 'effort = reward' argument.  He put in the effort, now he's being sodomized.  An overly-dramatic term, yes, but it illustrates the point.Mind you, I am not saying that this <i><b>IS</b></i> what happened (nor am I accusing Svann's WoW guild of this specifically).  But I <i><b>AM</b></i> saying that it is a possibility.  If my old guild on my previous server was involved, I would even say likely.</blockquote>Alot of this type of attitude happens when you have increadibly rare drops. In wow inpartiqular there was a drop that i really wanted badly didn't see it for months on end. Now if we were to have pug's in our raid should they be allowed at that item? At that point in time no one would have even blinked at that pug(s) getting whatever tier gear was there cause frankly we all had it, it just is about that one item. NOW the way we resolved this was more of a cest la vive sort of approch, everyone had a fair chance when we had pugs, we just tended to not bother picking up pugs when there was something like that one item that was wanted. So obviously that person wasn't of consequence to the success of the raid. Anyways sorry for interupting this conversation just shedding some light on this partiqular topic.

[Zeuhl]

 You've got a good point WeatherMan, which is why I was curious if the raid leader told them about the loot rules before hand. If the raid leader let everyone know before the raid that rare drops (or all drops) would go to guildies and that non-guildies couldn't roll then the point is moot. In that case the people that were upset can get happy in the same pants they got mad in. If it was decided at the last minute,i.e right when the chest was opened and they saw what was inside, then I can fully understand why the people who were forbidden to roll on it were upset. I would have been pretty mad myself. Situations like this are why it helps to be organized and for the loot rules to be known before the raid is even started.

[tram]

Raid guilds aren't necessarily too greedy to include outsiders.  It's just there's a lack of camaraderie between communities in EQ2.  Give it seven or eight years, and there maybe people who view things differently on these servers.   I remember several guilds on the server I played on in EQ1 that had backflagging events occasionally for people from all over, but that community had a lot of time to develop before then.  Players got older, mellowed out a bit, and decided to help out the community of lower level or lesser-geared people (even if most were alts that needed keys/flags).  Hell, there used to be a guy that would gather people up in Greater Faydark beneath Kelethin on one server and let them /rand 100 for tradeable loot he'd collected in the planes and beyond.  Those were good folks, and good days.

[WeatherMan]

<cite>Ohiv wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>WeatherMan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zeuhl@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>WeatherMan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Svann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Back in wow we used to take people from outside the guild all the time.  But we had to stop because there was an item we wanted to keep in guild and it caused too much friction when we decided non-guildies could not "roll" on it.</blockquote><b>Ouch...a raid participant wasn't allowed to roll on a certain item?  One they could possibly use/benefit from?  Mega-ouch</b>.  Yah, I could see where that would cause more than a point or two of contention.  Particularly if the raid leader didn't say anything ahead of time.I can't think of any item in EQ2 that would engender that sort of restriction...in all the raids I've been in (or watched over the wife's shoulder as she raided), if Item X is for Templars (for example), the raid's templars roll, and everyone else declines.  If no one can use it, then it's a FFA (transmuting considerations notwithstanding).  Of course, since leaving Everfrost and coming to LDL, I have had a refreshing change in raid leader quality - every leader I (and the missus) have had thus far have been...well...actual leaders...and the 'me me me' attitude of the old server's raid leaders I was unfortunate enough to interact with is gloriously absent.  </blockquote>  Not sure if the raid leader said something before the raid, but how do you think their actual members would have felt if that item went to a non-guildy? Especially if there's a good chance they probably wouldn't ever see that person again?</blockquote>You have a valid point.  But consider:Let us assume, for argument's sake, that non-guildie is as proficient a raider as anyone else standing over the item in question.  For one thing, he gave no less effort (presumably) in that raid than anyone else.  For another, depending on the role he played (tank, healer, and so on), maybe his participation was crucial in even obtaining that item (bringing down the mob who dropped it, or what have you).  And his repair bill is likely to be just as arduous as any other member of the raid - perhaps more, depending on what he did.Now he is told that he can't even roll on the item in question?  An item that might not even be there but for his contribution to the overall effort?Even if I were an ardent raid guild apologist, that smacks of favoritism and elitist behavior.  And it is a perfect example of why some (although admittedly, not all) raid guilds could quickly garner a rather unsavory reputation - for raid guilds in general (in many cases, undeservedly), and that raid guild in particular (likely <i><b>VERY</b></i> deservedly).  And it flies in the face of the entire 'effort = reward' argument.  He put in the effort, now he's being sodomized.  An overly-dramatic term, yes, but it illustrates the point.Mind you, I am not saying that this <i><b>IS</b></i> what happened (nor am I accusing Svann's WoW guild of this specifically).  But I <i><b>AM</b></i> saying that it is a possibility.  If my old guild on my previous server was involved, I would even say likely.</blockquote>Alot of this type of attitude happens when you have increadibly rare drops. In wow inpartiqular there was a drop that i really wanted badly didn't see it for months on end. Now if we were to have pug's in our raid should they be allowed at that item? At that point in time no one would have even blinked at that pug(s) getting whatever tier gear was there cause frankly we all had it, it just is about that one item. NOW the way we resolved this was more of a cest la vive sort of approch, everyone had a fair chance when we had pugs, we just tended to not bother picking up pugs when there was something like that one item that was wanted. So obviously that person wasn't of consequence to the success of the raid. Anyways sorry for interupting this conversation just shedding some light on this partiqular topic.</blockquote>Not interrupting at all...it seemed quite germane to the point.If I'm reading your post correctly, the raid shouldn't have even included non-guildies from the start, <i><b>if </b></i>they wanted to insure the item stayed within the guild.  I have no problem with that.  But that has to be (or <i><b>should</b></i> be) decided before the raid begins, and before they invite anyone else.The minute you include someone in a raid (or group), guildie or not, they should be every bit as eligible to pick up loot as anyone else (class exceptions and (perhaps) transmuting issues aside), particularly and especially if they were asked to come along.But again, all these issues should be considered before the raid even begins.

[Zarador]

<cite>WeatherMan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zeuhl@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>WeatherMan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Svann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Back in wow we used to take people from outside the guild all the time.  But we had to stop because there was an item we wanted to keep in guild and it caused too much friction when we decided non-guildies could not "roll" on it.</blockquote><b>Ouch...a raid participant wasn't allowed to roll on a certain item?  One they could possibly use/benefit from?  Mega-ouch</b>.  Yah, I could see where that would cause more than a point or two of contention.  Particularly if the raid leader didn't say anything ahead of time.I can't think of any item in EQ2 that would engender that sort of restriction...in all the raids I've been in (or watched over the wife's shoulder as she raided), if Item X is for Templars (for example), the raid's templars roll, and everyone else declines.  If no one can use it, then it's a FFA (transmuting considerations notwithstanding).  Of course, since leaving Everfrost and coming to LDL, I have had a refreshing change in raid leader quality - every leader I (and the missus) have had thus far have been...well...actual leaders...and the 'me me me' attitude of the old server's raid leaders I was unfortunate enough to interact with is gloriously absent.  </blockquote>  Not sure if the raid leader said something before the raid, but how do you think their actual members would have felt if that item went to a non-guildy? Especially if there's a good chance they probably wouldn't ever see that person again?</blockquote>You have a valid point.  But consider:Let us assume, for argument's sake, that non-guildie is as proficient a raider as anyone else standing over the item in question.  For one thing, he gave no less effort (presumably) in that raid than anyone else.  For another, depending on the role he played (tank, healer, and so on), maybe his participation was crucial in even obtaining that item (bringing down the mob who dropped it, or what have you).  And his repair bill is likely to be just as arduous as any other member of the raid - perhaps more, depending on what he did.Now he is told that he can't even roll on the item in question?  An item that might not even be there but for his contribution to the overall effort?Even if I were an ardent raid guild apologist, that smacks of favoritism and elitist behavior.  And it is a perfect example of why some (although admittedly, not all) raid guilds could quickly garner a rather unsavory reputation - for raid guilds in general (in many cases, undeservedly), and that raid guild in particular (likely <i><b>VERY</b></i> deservedly).  And it flies in the face of the entire 'effort = reward' argument.  He put in the effort, now he's being sodomized.  An overly-dramatic term, yes, but it illustrates the point.Mind you, I am not saying that this <i><b>IS</b></i> what happened (nor am I accusing Svann's WoW guild of this specifically).  But I <i><b>AM</b></i> saying that it is a possibility.  If my old guild on my previous server was involved, I would even say likely.</blockquote>The answer is really quite simple, they <i><b>DO NOT QUALIFY</b></i> for that loot, plain and simple.  They are a guest in an event where the raid members most likely work off of some sort of a DKP system whereby their not simply awarded "free loot".  You did however answer one of the main reasons for not tagging along non-members.  It simplifies things greatly and no one is slighted in the least. "Elitist" and "Favoritism"?  Yes, I suppose I would, as a member of that Guild needing that item expect some favoritism to be demonstrated towards me over a stranger,  although I would think that favoritism would be actually "Loyalty".

[Zeuhl]

 I wouldn't go so far as to say they don't qualify for that loot Zarador, but that's why the loot rule should be established before the raid. If you simply state, "No one outside of our guild will recieve loot for this raid unless none of our members need it," then people have to option go on the raid or to decline the invitation. Sure it's a bit stingy by the guild hosting the raid to be that way but well within their rights and I don't blame them for it. I definately agree with you that it's not favoritism but rather your guild rewarding the loyalty you've shown and being loyal in return with gear.

[erin]

This was common practice when I raided in EQ1.  If it was a guild raid, and someone was allowed to come along, it was made clear from the start that the non-guildy was not going to get to roll on loot.  Period.  Not one specific piece of loot, but ANY loot.  It was a guild raid, not an open raid.  PUG raids were different, and the ones I always refused to go on were the ones where the raid leader called a certain item before hand - on the server I was on that usually meant he was selling it for big bucks, he wasn't reserving it to use for himself.

[Creyzee]

<p>To be blunt, just don't bring "outsiders". </p><p>Kicked if we do, kicked if we don't. So don't!</p>

[Loolee]

Before I started raiding for myself, on occasion, I was allowed to join my hubby's guild on the occasional raid.  (People love furies!)  I never for ONCE expected loot on one of those raids.  They, like many other raiding guilds, worked on a dkp system and most of those folks worked long and hard to collect enough points to pay for the loot they won on those raids.

[ThE_GuN]

Wait, let me see if I'm geting this development right, first of all people want a guildie to sit out for a random person on the server /ran 10000 "yay you go this time", then flag that person through all the zones needed to get into VP, also including all the mobs he needs for the update, then take him along into VP, kill the mob he needs, and get him the mythical. But no, that's not enough, said person ALSO must be allowed to roll on all the loot he can use?And people are calling the raiders greedy?Oh wait, we should probly also put auto split on or hand said person out a 24th of the coin gatherred from the chest on all the raids and hand it over as well, not to mention any masters that should happen to drop that he can use.Tell me, how many of the 'casual' players give away 50-100p a day, raise your hands...I have NOTHING against helping people out, I'v answered random calls for help with Epic updates and quick named kills for their update, guilds given up nameds in Seb on the wait to raidzone to groups that follow us down, ect ect, but there has to be a line.However, there ARE times where people should be allowed to roll on loot and coin split be used, and that is if its a pickup raid. Or as alot of up and comming guilds on splitpaw do they get pickup people to come and help them with a zone, and in such cases the loot should be split with those that help them.

[Troubor]

<cite>JmacF wrote and I reply within it in <span style="color: #cc0000;">red</span>:</cite><blockquote><p>This post is an opinion of my own towards the Guk server.  <span style="color: #cc0000;">(I'm not on your server, I'm on Lucan D'Lere, but I do some tier 8 raiding on the weekends.  I also haven't read all 14+ pages of my thread.  So my answers in your post will reflect that)</span></p><p>Congratulations to the guilds that have the members to get their mythical weapons.  My small guild will not be able to get theirs because we are shut out of the high level guild raids because when we ask if we can raid with them, we get an emphasized "NO" in response.   <span style="color: #cc0000;">(This has probably been addressed, but it's not like they can zone you into Veeshan's Peak when they drop whatever named you need for the VP mythical update and say "Okay, we're looting the body now, you should get your update..let's have our conjy call you to us first to be safe...".  Sony in it's infinite wisdom or lack therin decided to make one have to progress to enter the raid zones after the first progression tier or 2.  So at least with regards to you VP mythical update, you literally can't get in unless you've gotten access, best as I understand it.  Our raid alliance is on the second progression "tier" currently, so I could be wrong, but I do understand this to be true)</span></p><p>It be a warm day in Everfrost when i see NPU, Troops of Doom, Keepers of Realm, OWG, etc...  actually say "Why don't we split our normal guild raid up and invite smaller guilds to play with us."  <span style="color: #cc0000;">(Because they would get mauled.  I can't go into very many details at all, but you need for tier 8 raiding a group that works very well together.  For a first progression tier raid like Protector's Realm it's not too critical, but even Kor-Sha it can be.  I've not seen VP but I'm sure it's a must there.  So even if they could let you in, if you actually were to raid with them, you'd be a hinderance..not due to lack of general skill, but just from not knowing their quirks, how they do things in general, the zone, etc)</span></p><p>My guild has maybe 6 full time players in it and 12 total.  <span style="color: #cc0000;">(My guild is roughly the same size too)</span>   We are very casual players, who occassionally like to jump into a raid and learn the zones. <span style="color: #cc0000;">(There's only two members who raid in mine, myself and an 80th warlock, we're both in the same alliance, the warlock is more of a part time member.)</span>   However, everytime I ask someone if i can join their raid I get a tell back saying, "We don't allow people outside our guild to raid with us."  <span style="color: #cc0000;">(Their choice.  See my reply about that above.  It's not them being selfish, it's them knowing they might not survive even the most basic encounters if 23 people are on the same wavelength, but one isn't)</span>   Or I hear, "Stand by and if we have room we'll invite you, " only to know that the response will be, "Sorry, we filled it with our guild members." <span style="color: #cc0000;">(Again, same reply)</span></p><p>You should be ashamed of yourselfs for being that greedy that you can't allow those of us who work 65 - 70 hours a week a chance to obtain the pleasure of raiding one the high end raid zones. <span style="color: #cc0000;">(I'm almost thinking this is an early April Fool's post, or one at least designed to troll a response.  Not intended as a flame, just as a comment.  Despite it coming out to five 14 hour days per week if you do work 70 hours a week, I won't really question that figure either.  But plenty of people who fit the full time/hardcore raider category hold down normal jobs or are full time students.  I know active roleplayers who play just as much as people in raid guilds.  I know a lady on my server who mostly solos and probably plays as much or more then most people I know on my server.  I only raid on the weekends, my play time has gone down a bit but at it's height I'm sure I was on just as much as any member of a full time raid guild.  Believe me, a good chunk of the people in the hardcore raid guilds on your server have full time jobs and/or are full time students too)</span></p><p>Currenly, I have one option if i want to raid and that's to leave the guild that have become my family and friends over the past 4+ years. <span style="color: #cc0000;">(nope.  You can see if there's a raid alliance that will take you.  Ours is stuck in the second progression tier on Venril Sathir yes.  We clear Kor-Sha perfectly fine though.  I'm sure we'll get past Venril soon.  We're pretty close now.  It might take longer for us, but I know we'll be in VP...and I know we'll get our Mythicals.  My choice on being with a group that might take a bit longer.  But I get to see the raid content, albeit at maybe a bit slower pace, yet also get to be as casual as I want on the weekdays.  Solo, roleplay (I am on a RP preferred server), go nuts crafting or not even log on for a day and play something else.  So I have for me the best of both worlds.  My server has a pretty low population.  Not sure about Guk's population, but I'm sure it's more then us.  I'm sure you can find, or if need be form a raid alliance..and then start learning the tier 8 zones on your own.  Instead of riding on the coattails of a guild or group that's in VP now..you can instead do it on your own.  Take longer?  Sure.  But so what?  You can say you really did it.</span></p><p><span style="color: #cc0000;">Feel free to take my advice, or to dismiss it as you see fit.  Flame me, heckle me, whatever you want.  But remember, the full time raid guilds on your server aren't obligated to do a thing.  Consider this, I don't expect to walk up to the richest man in town and demand he let me borrow his car or live in his house for a day just because he has more money and nicer things then I do.  He's not obligated to offer me anything simply because I have less.  Why should an in game group be obligated to do the same?)</span></p></blockquote>

[simpwrx02]

<cite>WeatherMan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Svann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Back in wow we used to take people from outside the guild all the time.  But we had to stop because there was an item we wanted to keep in guild and it caused too much friction when we decided non-guildies could not "roll" on it.</blockquote>Ouch...a raid participant wasn't allowed to roll on a certain item?  One they could possibly use/benefit from?  Mega-ouch.  Yah, I could see where that would cause more than a point or two of contention.  Particularly if the raid leader didn't say anything ahead of time.I can't think of any item in EQ2 that would engender that sort of restriction...in all the raids I've been in (or watched over the wife's shoulder as she raided), if Item X is for Templars (for example), the raid's templars roll, and everyone else declines.  If no one can use it, then it's a FFA (transmuting considerations notwithstanding).  Of course, since leaving Everfrost and coming to LDL, I have had a refreshing change in raid leader quality - every leader I (and the missus) have had thus far have been...well...actual leaders...and the 'me me me' attitude of the old server's raid leaders I was unfortunate enough to interact with is gloriously absent.  </blockquote><p>Most top end guilds either use a dkp system or a leader assigned loot system.  I know the few times when we have invited people to join our raid force we told tehm straight up from the start you will not get any loot unless no one in our guild needs it, however any repair bills you occur from this raid we will gladly pay for the cost.  So basically we are giving a random person free AA, and a very small chance at loot we mainly only did this with KoS contested mobs, but hey they gave the most AA. </p><p>Is this right, of course it is, when we get a new guild member who raids sure they can bid on loot, but they have a fraction of the dkp the rest of the guild has , so they will only get loot if no one else wants it.  Why would a guild treat a non guildie better than a guild recruit?</p>

[de lori]

<p>LOL...</p><p>I know in our Guild and probably in most other raid Guilds there is an app period before becoming a full member...</p><p>During this time (6 weeks for me) I had to turn up to ALL raids......show a strong understanding of my class and role in the raid. I was also only allowed to bid on something if no full members wanted it.</p><p>This app period shows to the guild my abilities and commitment...and I think you'll find most Raid Guilds will have something similar in place.</p><p>Sooo random player002 comes along to a raid and they should be allowed to roll on something they want?....what about all the apps 2-5 weeks into their app period?</p><p>anyway.....roll a lvl 1 toon on kith b4 april 6th....make sure he's naked and mebe...just mebe, you'll get lucky <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p><a href="http://www.eq2flames.com/kithicor-neriak/21688-wtb-mythical-epic-pst-12.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.eq2flames.com/kithicor-n...pic-pst-12.html</a></p>

[Troubor]

<cite>simpwrx02 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>WeatherMan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Svann wrote:</cite><blockquote>Back in wow we used to take people from outside the guild all the time.  But we had to stop because there was an item we wanted to keep in guild and it caused too much friction when we decided non-guildies could not "roll" on it.</blockquote>Ouch...a raid participant wasn't allowed to roll on a certain item?  One they could possibly use/benefit from?  Mega-ouch.  Yah, I could see where that would cause more than a point or two of contention.  Particularly if the raid leader didn't say anything ahead of time.I can't think of any item in EQ2 that would engender that sort of restriction...in all the raids I've been in (or watched over the wife's shoulder as she raided), if Item X is for Templars (for example), the raid's templars roll, and everyone else declines.  If no one can use it, then it's a FFA (transmuting considerations notwithstanding).  Of course, since leaving Everfrost and coming to LDL, I have had a refreshing change in raid leader quality - every leader I (and the missus) have had thus far have been...well...actual leaders...and the 'me me me' attitude of the old server's raid leaders I was unfortunate enough to interact with is gloriously absent.  </blockquote><p>Most top end guilds either use a dkp system or a leader assigned loot system.  I know the few times when we have invited people to join our raid force we told tehm straight up from the start you will not get any loot unless no one in our guild needs it, however any repair bills you occur from this raid we will gladly pay for the cost.  So basically we are giving a random person free AA, and a very small chance at loot we mainly only did this with KoS contested mobs, but hey they gave the most AA. </p><p>Is this right, of course it is, when we get a new guild member who raids sure they can bid on loot, but they have a fraction of the dkp the rest of the guild has , so they will only get loot if no one else wants it.  Why would a guild treat a non guildie better than a guild recruit?</p></blockquote><p>It's not just raid guilds.  We're just a raid alliance as I said before, raid 3 times a week, once on Friday, twice on Saturday.  Been talk of adding a fourth session midweek, but so far just talk.  Anyway, we use a zero sum DKP system, first time raiding with us current members have priority, after that you can loot.  I actually consider our system one of the more liberal systems, both for only being trumped by full members on your first raid with us, and for using a zero sum DKP system in general.</p>