GU 44 Arrow Feedback [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

T1663R

03-26-2008, 12:29 PM

Hello,ive opened this threat so that this wont be going down in all the post of people. (it belongs basicly to the Arrow changes Topic)OK this is a question at the Devs...What is the primary source of the Ranger dps from your perspective ?well it SHOULD BE our ranged damage.i did make some tests...(with my full ranged dps equip and ranged dps archievments)The Idea i had was to compare our ranged auto attack with our own melee auto attack.Before i start, you have to realize the im fully ranged buffed and have a lot more ranged stats on me than melee...so neraly every melee class will have more melee stats and will do more melee auto attack !!!here are my stats :DPS Mod 25Haste Mod 81Melee Crit 9 %Ranged Crit 31 %Melee DA 7 %Ranged DA 12 %i am doing this tests in sinking sands, because the mobs there wont get my down so easily and i can simply stand still and do dps.(i did some test in kylong plains too and the results were nearly the same)since im using the ranger epic bow i dont require a min range so i can test this wonderfully.first im gonna test the our ranged auto attack.Im dooing this test with the Eagles Talon. (our ranger epic bow) and "t8" field point arrows aITEM 1767887503 690638045 -1780637060:[Eagle's Talon]/ai will only link the first 3 fights so that the post wont get too long, 3 so that we will get some average results.the mobs are all "a shade prowler" lvl 46^ mobs.a shade prowler: (00:09) 9306 | 1034,00 [Hidan-crush-3358]Hidan 9306 | 1034,00a shade prowler: (00:10) 7663 | 766,30 [Hidan-crush-2655]Hidan 7663 | 766,30a shade prowler: (00:10) 10932 | 1093,20 [Hidan-crush-3304]Hidan 10932 | 1093,20as you can see it always takes the same time every fight, i was dooing like 8 mobs and nearly every parse looked like this, so you can belife it is accurate.it took me always like 9-10 sec do get such an mob down with auto attack... now im gonna test our Melee Auto Attack.PLS REMEBER WE ARE RANGERS AND SHOULD GET OUR MOST DAMAGE FROM RANGED, AND IM FULLY RANGED EQUIPED AND SKILLED ! im gonna test this with 2 one hand weapons which would be :the Nathsar Shortsword aITEM -254488928 1236381490:[Nathsar Shortsword]/aand the Carotidcutter aITEM -1136430526 1996356593:[Carotidcutter]/asame mobs, same buffs, same equip. so well, look :a shade prowler: (00:08) 8794 | 1099,25 [Hidan-slash-1669]Hidan 8794 | 1099,25a shade prowler: (00:05) 7677 | 1535,40 [Hidan-slash-1870]Hidan 7677 | 1535,40a shade prowler: (00:08) 7858 | 982,25 [Hidan-slash-1902]Hidan 7858 | 982,25well as you can see, im getting more melee auto attack than ranged.i will even show you devs this in game and you can see it yourself and parse it on your own, just contact me, i will show it too you.but anyways, im waiting on you reply now, can you pls explain to me, why i get more autoattack even if im fully ranged skilled and equiped ?????dont thell me the ranger epic isnt good enough, its the best thing i can get as a not raiding ranger.(ive done this test on test pvp server)Greetings Hidan lvl 80 ranger VenekorDomo lvl 80 Mystiv Venekor

Freliant

03-26-2008, 01:02 PM

The 2 sets of damage seem to be a bit off.. The second one on the second set seems unussually high. Did you crit? That makes a big difference. A proper test of Ranger DPS in ranged combat and melee combat should be done against an epic. Get a tank a few healers and yourself, and head on down to the epic x4 instance in TS. Fight him purely ranged doing as best you can, Phoenix Fall the encounter, and try it again melee doing all your CAs. Check the difference in parses and post them please.If indeed you can do more dps melee, then there is a problem.

Zerion

03-26-2008, 01:14 PM

Actually, If you can get over to the Training Wall in Kunzar Jungle and do JUST a Ranged Auto Attack run and then do JUST a Melee Auto Attack run w/o any combat arts and post that data that would be great...Do like 5 runs of each and see if the data is consistent.Never thought of testing this...

Freliant

03-26-2008, 01:18 PM

Problem with that is that you do not get to see your CA damage, or raid buffed damage. Its easy enough to say one does more damage than the other, but you have to put yourself in the real "fray" so to speak. Yes, the training wall is a good idea, but make sure you are buffed up to raid standards to test each setup.

Boramyr

03-26-2008, 01:20 PM

Yes your 5 second fight is higher dps than your 10 second fight.You can't get good data in 5 to 10 seconds, there are too many variables. Try leading off with Sniper Arrow and then following up with shower of arrows, chances are the fight will be 2 seconds and your dps will be 20k. You haven't even made one full round until about the two minute mark in combat. Try using the wall in Kunzar everyone is talking about. If we can get back attacks off on it which there are conflicting responses on and I haven't gone there myself yet to find out it should be our best bet for testing. You have a good idea just need to revise your methedology. Also keep in mind that you can avoid melee autoattacking all together by macroing your melee combat arts with the line /autoattack 2 after the art to turn ranged autoattack back on. Once you have the ET there is no reason you have to melee autoattack at all anymore.

T1663R

03-26-2008, 01:26 PM

<cite>Zerion wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually, If you can get over to the Training Wall in Kunzar Jungle and do JUST a Ranged Auto Attack run and then do JUST a Melee Auto Attack run w/o any combat arts and post that data that would be great...Do like 5 runs of each and see if the data is consistent.Never thought of testing this...</blockquote>i wish i had read this earlier.but well i made some test with the Coldtooth lvl 39 x2 in Thundering steppes.Auto attack only.the dps is a ltttle low since he stuns really badass.i also had to use heal poisons in order to surive.but here are the parses :RANGED Coldtooth: (02:10) 83685 | 643,73 [Hidan-crush-3816]Hidan 83685 | 643,73 MeleeColdtooth: (02:13) 82849 | 622,92 [Hidan-slash-2140]Hidan 82849 | 622,92pls again remeber, im fully ranged skileld and equiped. (same gear same archiefments and so on as in the test from before)well well im heading to kunzar now to the wall EDIT i forgot, i only fighted until he had 50 % life on both fights and then i runed away, if i would have killed him i could only have done 1 testagain, if any dev dont belive this data i will love to show it to you live in game.

Anekuh

03-26-2008, 01:30 PM

<cite>Domo@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zerion wrote:</cite><blockquote>Actually, If you can get over to the Training Wall in Kunzar Jungle and do JUST a Ranged Auto Attack run and then do JUST a Melee Auto Attack run w/o any combat arts and post that data that would be great...Do like 5 runs of each and see if the data is consistent.Never thought of testing this...</blockquote>i wish i had read this earlier.but well i made some test with the Coldtooth lvl 39 x2 in Thundering steppes.Auto attack only.the dps is a ltttle low since he stuns really badass.i also had to use heal poisons in order to surive.but here are the parses :RANGED Coldtooth: (02:10) 83685 | 643,73 [Hidan-crush-3816]Hidan 83685 | 643,73 MeleeColdtooth: (02:13) 82849 | 622,92 [Hidan-slash-2140]Hidan 82849 | 622,92pls again remeber, im fully ranged skileld and equiped. (same gear same archiefments and so on as in the test from before)well well im heading to kunzar now to the wallEDIT i forgot, i only fighted until he had 50 % live on both fights and then i runed away, if i would have killed him i could only have done 1 test</blockquote>Why are you testing a level 39 raid mob??? Our dps tier7 and below is just fine.Goto tabernacle wall and test there. Post you returns here. Do the same on the live server with the exact gear, bow, and arrows. Again, post your results here. This will give you a better comparison of the changes.

T1663R

03-26-2008, 01:30 PM

<cite>Boramyr wrote:</cite><blockquote> Try leading off with Sniper Arrow and then following up with shower of arrows, chances are the fight will be 2 seconds and your dps will be 20k. You haven't even made one full round until about the two minute mark in combat. </blockquote>this is a test of our ranged auto attack against our melee auto attack so i wont use CAs

T1663R

03-26-2008, 01:33 PM

<cite>Anekuh wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Why are you testing a level 39 raid mob??? Our dps tier7 and below is just fine.Goto tabernacle wall and test there. Post you returns here. Do the same on the live server with the exact gear, bow, and arrows. Again, post your results here. This will give you a better comparison of the changes.</blockquote>pls read my post i said im heading to kunzar right now, i sadly dont have a group to help me with this atm and i cant figth against lvl 70-80 epics solo.but the wall in jungle is a good idea and like i said im heading there right now.

Zerion

03-26-2008, 01:56 PM

Domo, Thanks for doing the tests... I'm stuck at work and I'm really curious as to your results. Alot of people don't know about the wall in KJ (wish there alot of them to test against). I did alot of testing on the wall yesterday on LIVE doing about 3 sets of 10 just with self buffs and caustic poisons doing my normal range of CA's etc from the sweet spot and tweaked my casting order around to get consistent DPS... Basically I was running about 1825 DPS... I haven't had a chance to run these on TEST yet though.Your thought of just comparing Ranged Auto with Melee Auto and comparing the damage is interesting in that everyone would expect Range auto to totally blow away Melee Auto...Looking forward to your results.

T1663R

03-26-2008, 01:58 PM

Sry for tripple post but heres the data :RANGED AUTO ATTACKtraining wall: (02:37) 129385 | 824,11 [Hidan-crush-3903]Hidan 129385 | 824,11MELEE AUTO ATTACKtraining wall: (02:39) 128049 | 805,34 [Hidan-pierce-1570]Hidan 128049 | 805,34to the melee auto attack, i had to make two melee test. in the first i only had like 600 dps but i saw my slashing was 150 / 400 so i replaced the slashing weapon against the anaphylaxis(piercing) . after that, as you can see, my melee autoattack was almost as strong as my ranged auto attack !!!but again, im fully ranged equiped and skilled though archievment !!!Again to the devs, i dont have a problem to show this to you live on the server, but pls explain me why our auto attack is so low ?bassicly i know why, itgs because we are on t7 auto attack rate...but i would like to have a statement from you now.

Krakelkr

03-26-2008, 02:12 PM

<cite>Domo@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Sry for tripple post but heres the data :RANGED AUTO ATTACKtraining wall: (02:37) 129385 | 824,11 [Hidan-crush-3903]Hidan 129385 | 824,11MELEE AUTO ATTACKtraining wall: (02:39) 128049 | 805,34 [Hidan-pierce-1570]Hidan 128049 | 805,34to the melee auto attack, i had to make two melee test. in the first i only had like 600 dps but i saw my slashing was 150 / 400 so i replaced the slashing weapon against the anaphylaxis(piercing) . after that, as you can see, my melee autoattack was almost as strong as my ranged auto attack !!!but again, im fully ranged equiped and skilled though archievment !!!Again to the devs, i dont have a problem to show this to you live on the server, but pls explain me why our auto attack is so low ?bassicly i know why, itgs because we are on t7 auto attack rate...but i would like to have a statement from you now.</blockquote><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/385970365b8ed7503b4294502a458efa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Zerion

03-26-2008, 02:59 PM

Wow.. that is kinda shocking..Could you post what weapons your using in main hand & off hand. I see you are using our Lvl 80 Fabled Epic with Field point for the ranged test... do you by chance have a T7 Fabled that you could parse for Ranged attack as well (using the same arrow)The fact that the ranged and the melee Auto-attack DPS are so close is shocking to me.

T1663R

03-26-2008, 03:24 PM

i had :-Carotidcutter aITEM -1136430526 1996356593:[Carotidcutter]/aand -Anaphylaxis aITEM 724758519 -953866839:Anaphylaxis/athe shoking thing is not only that our melee auto attack dps is soo close to ranged auto attack damage.the shocking thin is that thats the case even if im completely ranged equiped and skilled.every other melee class will have at least the double melee benefits and will compleately beat our ranged auto attack with his melee auto attack.

Zerion

03-26-2008, 03:31 PM

Dare I ask that you respec melee and re-run the same test.... heheheobviously you've avoided the pure melee DA and Crit items...I''m curious what a melee equiped and speced ranger would parse..

T1663R

03-26-2008, 03:32 PM

<cite>Zerion wrote:</cite><blockquote>I see you are using our Lvl 80 Fabled Epic with Field point for the ranged test... do you by chance have a T7 Fabled that you could parse for Ranged attack as well (using the same arrow)</blockquote>sadly i only have a realllllyyyy weak t7 bow.which would be the lvl 70 legendary "Torn Ligament Longbow" aITEM -669897630 -1979562757:Torn Ligament Longbow/abut here are the test results from it : training wall: (03:03) 127681 | 697,71 [Hidan-crush-1779]Hidan 127681 | 697,71

T1663R

03-26-2008, 03:35 PM

<cite>Zerion wrote:</cite><blockquote>Dare I ask that you respec melee and re-run the same test.... heheheobviously you've avoided the pure melee DA and Crit items...I''m curious what a melee equiped and speced ranger would parse.. </blockquote>maybe i will try that tomorow, but its getting too late for that today, anyway we have to focus on getting the t8 ranged auto attack dps we deserve...

Corwinus

03-26-2008, 09:07 PM

First Thank Domo for creating that Thread, I think we need a thread just for test results diffrent from the controversy on the place of the Ranger within T1 DPS. It is important too but mixing too many things gets confusing in my opinion.I made some tests on live and test today. I will give you the results in 2 posts for better readabilityPart 1Test Feedback on Arrow Changes:- I killed the wall in Kunzar Jungle 10 times on Live and on test in the same exact conditions (same stats, AAs, equipment, buffs, arrows, poisons, ...) . -I did not use any melee CA for that test on purpose-I also did not use Sniper arrow on purpose so that the scale of the test is more readable-I used ACT 2.70 version 184 which is taking into account the new log structure in order to record the information 1/ The characteristics of the test are the following:Ranger 80 - 140 AAHealth 8142 - Power 7532 - Avoidance 5904 (23.1%) - Mitigation 2505 (40.1%)Spell mod 50 - Melee Mod 125 - DPS Mod 22 - Haste Mod 49Attack 1574 - Melee DA 2% - Ranged DA 18% - AoE Attack 28%Spell cast Mod 35% -Spell reuse Mod 0% - Spell reuse Mod 0%Melee crit 11% - Ranged crit 44% - Spell crit 53%Primary Dmg 292-1169 - delay 3.0 (Anaphylaxis)Secondary Dmg none - Shield (Voracious shield of striking)Ranged Dmg 726 - 2579 - delay 5.9Int 296 - Str 641 - Agi 642 - Sta 548 - Wis 101Permanent buffs are : Archer's fury Adept III, Cloak of the forest Master I, Primal agility Master I, Surrounding attacks Adept IV, Valiant Beast from Maar deity, PathfindingPredator tree:AGI line 4-4-6-8-1 (Poise in the end)STA Line 4-6-4-8-1 (Impenetrable in the end) - It's just me I find it useful to survive in Raids.Int Line 5-4-4-8Ranger Tree:Poisoning line 5-5-5-1 (Conservation in the end)Trapping line 4(snare)- 5(roped shot)Focusing line 3-5-5-5-1 (Extension in the end)Survival line 5 (pathfinding)Multishot line 5-5-5-5-1 (0 in Stream of arrows - Double Arrow in the end)Weapon Used:Eagle's Talon Fabled +40 str +26 sta +26 int + 160 health +160 power +3 ranged +4 Ranged DA +10 dps (scintillating judicious composite gear)/weapon command on Live: Without Ammos :Base Damage 269 - 1075 Actual Damage 797 - 3188 With Ferrite Field Point arrows level 67 (Damage +89 crushing Hit Bonus +30%) :Base Damage 302 - 940 Actual Damage 720 -2611 /weapon command on test:Without AmmosBase Damage 269 - 1075 Actual Damage (638 - 2550) (615 -2459 before the 1st update)With Ferrite Field Point arrows level 70 (Damage +108 crushing Hit Bonus +10%)Base Damage 377 - 1183 Actual Damage 746 - 2658 (726 -2579 before the 1st update)Poison Used:Expert's Caustic Poison and Expert's Fettering PoisonCA used : -Roped Shot Adept IIIOn live inflicts 518 - 780 ranged damage on targetOn test inflicts 553 - 839 ranged damage on target -Searing Shot Adept IIIOn live inflicts (492 - 737) + (367-612) heat damage on targetOn test inflicts (559 - 84<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> + (434-723) heat damage on target-Blame arrow Adept IIIOn live inflicts 980 - 1551 ranged damage on targetOn test inflicts 1056 - 1667 ranged damage on target -Amazing arrow Adept IIIOn live inflicts 1215 - 1941 ranged damage on target - same on test (no change)-Vulnerable arrow Master IIOn live inflicts 1435 - 2309 ranged damage on target - same on test (no change)-Shower of Arrow Adept IIIOn live inflicts 2689 - 4454 ranged damage on targets in the area - same on test (no change)-Triple burst Master IOn live inflicts (447 - 662) + (645-1075) + (968-1613) ranged damage on target - same on test (no change)Stealth Fire Master IOn live inflicts 3107 - 5095 ranged damage on target - same on test (no change)Rear Shot Adept IIIOn live inflicts 1480 - 2383 ranged damage on target - same on test (no change)Fittest survival Adept IIIOn live inflicts 1304 - 2146 ranged damage on target - same on test (no change)Sniper arrow Adept III (not used in the test)On live inflicts 6446 - 10661 ranged damage on target - same on test (no change)So the sentence from the Test update notes dated 3/25/2008 18:23"Slighty raised the ranged damage modifier on all ranged attacks." Should be read "Slighty raised the ranged damage modifier on all melee attacks and some ranged attacks"

Corwinus

03-26-2008, 09:12 PM

PART 22/ The results of the test are the following2.1 The repartition of damage was surprisingly the same both on Live and on test :Vulnerable Arrow 3% Triple Burst 4% Talon Strike 2% Stealth Fire 3% Shower of Arrows 2% Searing Shot 5% Roped Shot 6% Rear Shot 3% Quick Shot 11% Fittest Survival 2% Crush 41% Caustic Poison 13%Blame Arrow 3% Amazing Arrow 2%2.2 In terms of DPS per CA + Procs + Auto AttackDPS LIVE TEST 3-26Vulnerable Arrow 45.78 37.24Triple Burst 71.61 63.29Talon Strike 30.25 22.22Stealth Fire 44.58 37.4Shower of Arrows 33.79 27.36Searing Shot 83.37 85.33Roped Shot 89.46 88.36Rear Shot 52.02 46.56Quick Shot 182.53 163.18Fittest Survival 38.39 20.09crush 682.24 600.35caustic poison 218.93 197.64Blame Arrow 44.69 46.76Amazing Arrow 38.7 35.39Total DPS on Live : 1656.34 - Total DPS on Test : 1471.173/ ConclusionYou can clearly see where it needs some improvement, obviously Blame Arrow, Searing Shot and Roped shot are "ok" because their damage was increase yesterday with the update but the other CAs still need the same light treatment (like 10% damage increase). As well as a slight increase in poison proc and a 10-15% increase on Auto attack. This will bring us back to where we were before LU 44 but not more. The all issue of Ranger DPS being on par with other T1 DPS classes is not treated here. Though the above figures give you an idea of what could be done to get there.Cheers,Corwin/Oasis/Cotw

JenoLT

03-26-2008, 09:58 PM

<cite>Corwinus wrote:</cite><blockquote>"Slighty raised the ranged damage modifier on all ranged attacks." Should be read "Slighty raised the ranged damage modifier on all melee attacks and some ranged attacks"</blockquote>I think thats just for autoattacks. Those test notes describe the change from the GU44 Beta 1 to GU44 Beta 2 - and therefore the slightly increased bow modifier for ranged autoattacks (T8 bows do the same damage as on live now, not less)

Tyberi

03-26-2008, 10:11 PM

They changed the modifier to be slightly more powerful than before but still worse auto attack DPS than on live.Good game SOE?

Zerion

03-26-2008, 11:33 PM

Ok, Finally have some time to post my results. Testing was done using the Rigid Scale Bow and the Ferrite Bodkin arrows. This was a simple test of Auto-Attack damage.... No Combat Arts were used. Test was conducted at the Training Wall in Kunzar Jungle on Test and on Live. Test was completed 10 times on each and results averaged. Identical Stats were utilized on bothLvl 80 Ranger, 140 AAsStr: 661DPS: 26Ranged Crit: 52Ranged DA: 15I removed all procing items other then off the bow and poisons.Overall:Server Ext DPS Avg Median Min Max Hits Crits Live 810 1498 980 462 3785 429 217Test 805 1476 1235 456 3559 435 250Pierce: (no clue why I put crush...using Bodkin - Piercing +184)Live 522 2525 2986 867 3758 164 88Test 511 2422 2740 813 3559 168 90Caustic:Live 151 1121 1250 962 1250 107 59Test 150 1134 1235 950 1235 105 68Quick Shot:Live 112 743 663 643 863 120 55Test 120 767 854 657 863 125 68Scale Slice:Live 25 517 462 462 601 38 15Test 25 544 593 456 593 37 24 Conclusion - DPS is balanced between live and test for the RSG from an Autoattack prospective... A minor decrease in DPS is noted but not significant.This is just a data run.. The debate on where DPS for rangers should be I'll continue in the other thread.... Lets keep this simply about the numbers.

Tyberi

03-27-2008, 12:34 AM

You're forgetting about the arrow damage mod difference between live and test that is modified by strength and DPS mod in those calculations and parses.

Zerion

03-27-2008, 12:45 AM

<cite>Tyberion@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're forgetting about the arrow damage mod difference between live and test that is modified by strength and DPS mod in those calculations and parses.</blockquote>I'm not forgetting about it.. I'm simply showing that a simple hands off test between live and test numbers are resulting in the stated results. The same str, DPS mod, crit chance, DA chance etc exist on both tests...Obviously the % hit change is going to hurt ALOT against raid mobs... given the level of the wall I had a 100% hit rate... If I had a lvl 85 Epic x4 wall to shoot at...

Corwinus

03-27-2008, 01:09 AM

<cite>Corwinus wrote:</cite><blockquote>3/ ConclusionYou can clearly see where it needs some improvement, obviously Blame Arrow, Searing Shot and Roped shot are "ok" because their damage was increase yesterday with the update but the other CAs still need the same light treatment (like 10% damage increase). As well as a slight increase in poison proc and a 10-15% increase on Auto attack. This will bring us back to where we were before LU 44 but not more. The all issue of Ranger DPS being on par with other T1 DPS classes is not treated here. Though the above figures give you an idea of what could be done to get there.</blockquote>This was the conclusion of my tests, now I wonder what we should expect. Are the devs going to increase the rest of the Ranged CAs ? and increase a bit Auto attack ? I would like to see another increment so that we could repeat our tests. I also hope they are reading this. Nobody likes to waste time.Corwin

Tyberi

03-27-2008, 01:30 AM

<cite>Zerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tyberion@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're forgetting about the arrow damage mod difference between live and test that is modified by strength and DPS mod in those calculations and parses.</blockquote>I'm not forgetting about it.. I'm simply showing that a simple hands off test between live and test numbers are resulting in the stated results. The same str, DPS mod, crit chance, DA chance etc exist on both tests...Obviously the % hit change is going to hurt ALOT against raid mobs... given the level of the wall I had a 100% hit rate... If I had a lvl 85 Epic x4 wall to shoot at...</blockquote>What you are showing is what has been shown previously.That with stronger arrows on test server you are able to parse the same as what you can on live servers right now with weaker arrows.T7 DPS.And that is with 100% hit rate and not against something that can avoid your attacks which the lower hit rate mod on the new arrows is going to affect and then lower that DPS even further.

Corwinus

03-27-2008, 12:14 PM

<cite>Tyberion@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zerion wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tyberion@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>You're forgetting about the arrow damage mod difference between live and test that is modified by strength and DPS mod in those calculations and parses.</blockquote>I'm not forgetting about it.. I'm simply showing that a simple hands off test between live and test numbers are resulting in the stated results. The same str, DPS mod, crit chance, DA chance etc exist on both tests...Obviously the % hit change is going to hurt ALOT against raid mobs... given the level of the wall I had a 100% hit rate... If I had a lvl 85 Epic x4 wall to shoot at...</blockquote>What you are showing is what has been shown previously.That with stronger arrows on test server you are able to parse the same as what you can on live servers right now with weaker arrows.T7 DPS.And that is with 100% hit rate and not against something that can avoid your attacks which the lower hit rate mod on the new arrows is going to affect and then lower that DPS even further.</blockquote>I agree with you Zerion, the tests we are able to do right now are very limited to what we can expect from a solo mob, not representative at all from an Epic or an Heroic mob.What would really help is SOE providing us with some tools like a Heroic wall and and Epic wall, both t8, with the resists we can expect from it. Then we would be talking .Cor

Corwinus

03-31-2008, 03:05 PM

Something new to test maybe In today's gnobrin notes :TEST SERVER ONLY<ul><li>A vicious burynai trader now hawks his ammunition wares on the dock at Dregs landing. See him if you're looking to test the ranger arrow changes.</li></ul>

voxranger

03-31-2008, 03:48 PM

Excellent work guys. Its clear you put a great deal of thinking and work into your planning, testing, and presentation.All in all, it looks as though things are close to what Aeralik has in mind with slight variance either way. However, it think we all acknoweldge that the testing is likely to be biased upward because the reduction on hit rates is not well accounted for in the environment tested.Thanks again, I personally very much apperciate you taking the time to do this.

Sightless

03-31-2008, 04:06 PM

lol.. The level 79 Legendary bow from Crypt of Agony (name slips my mind) still does less damage than the Rigid Scale Bow. Instead of nerfing the Rigid Scale bow, they should have increased the effectiveness of the tier 8 Legendary and Fabled bows.

Corwinus

03-31-2008, 08:07 PM

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>Some updates for today that should be coming soon: SpellsRangerThe Bleeding Cut line has had its duration lowered to 24s. Trick Shot, double Shot and Leg shot lines have had their casting times reduced to .5 secondsDirgeCacophany of Blades will once again proc from ranged.ItemsThe Fabled Eagle's Talon should do slightly more damageThe Di`Zok Bow of Flame is now a 7 second delay and should do slightly more damage.The Bleeding cut change should help a bit in short fights since the dot will tick faster. The lower cast time on Trick shot, double shot and leg shot should also help out in those short group fights since you can dish those out fast and they have the faster reuse times. The changes to the bows should help out as well. You guys seem to like that Di`Zok bow so it should be more powerful now with a 7 second delay and a slight damage boost for the average ranger waiting to get their fabled epic. Fabled Eagle's Talon is probably the best short of the mythical now although Vol`drath is upgraded as well and makes for another option before you get your mythical.</blockquote>Yes definitely more test to come, I will redo all my tests with eagle's talon fabled and publish them here. Cor

Tyberi

03-31-2008, 08:27 PM

So we have: <ul><li>a DPS bump for the fabled ET, which was needed.</li><li>Reduced proc rate on three CAs due to shorter cast time</li><li>No DPS boost for other T8 bows or the Mythical ET</li></ul>Give with one hand take with the other.Atleast the SOE trend is continuing strong.

Kitsune286

03-31-2008, 08:47 PM

AFAIK, cast time has nothing to do with proc rate.That be said, I know I'm hardly ever right. =p

Corwinus

03-31-2008, 08:52 PM

<cite>Corwinus wrote:</cite><blockquote>Something new to test maybe In today's gnobrin notes :TEST SERVER ONLY<ul><li>A vicious burynai trader now hawks his ammunition wares on the dock at Dregs landing. See him if you're looking to test the ranger arrow changes.</li></ul></blockquote>Well he sells the all ferrite arrows for 7g/100 if you want to test them<img src="http://www.flickr.com/photos/25137253@N02/2378827098/" alt="" width="28" height="30" border="0" />

Gungo

03-31-2008, 11:33 PM

<cite>Tyberion@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>So we have: <ul><li>a DPS bump for the fabled ET, which was needed.</li><li>Reduced proc rate on three CAs due to shorter cast time</li><li>No DPS boost for other T8 bows or the Mythical ET</li></ul>Give with one hand take with the other.Atleast the SOE trend is continuing strong.</blockquote>How in gods name is not upgrading a weapon which has one fo the most overpowered effects taking anything away. It is alreadyy the best bow in game by ALOT. Secondly if you think you are losing dps by making a combat art faster reuse without changing its damage value. you need serious help in learning game mechanics.

Tyberi

04-01-2008, 12:25 AM

Gungo, learn to read. I said cast time, not recast time.I see your grasp of mechanics or damage potential has not gotten any better when posting on this site.Try running a parse sometime and look at the percentage of damage from auto attack and from CAs for both assassin and ranger. Then look at the DPS difference.Either ranger CA damage needs a massive upgrade or, make the mythical ET compete DPS wise with a mythical scout weapon using a good offhand.

Krakelkr

04-01-2008, 07:58 AM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>How in gods name is not upgrading a weapon which has one fo the most overpowered effects taking anything away. It is alreadyy the best bow in game by ALOT. Secondly if you think you are losing dps by making a combat art faster reuse without changing its damage value. you need serious help in learning game mechanics. </blockquote>Both the above sentences are wrong. The best bow is the mythical epic oviously, not the fabled. The fabled doesn't have any effect you could conseider overpowered. ("The Fabled Eagle's Talon should do slightly more damage")Aeralik wrote that combat art casting time was reduced, not recast time. ("Trick Shot, double Shot and Leg shot lines have had their casting times reduced to .5 seconds")

Gungo

04-01-2008, 02:15 PM

<cite>Tyberion@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Gungo, learn to read. I said cast time, not recast time.I see your grasp of mechanics or damage potential has not gotten any better when posting on this site.Try running a parse sometime and look at the percentage of damage from auto attack and from CAs for both assassin and ranger. Then look at the DPS difference.Either ranger CA damage needs a massive upgrade or, make the mythical ET compete DPS wise with a mythical scout weapon using a good offhand.</blockquote>Apparently you need to learn to read because CAST time has absolutely nothing to do with proc rates at all. RECAST DOES HOWEVER. It is pointless arguing with you because you are not testing anything. You are not looking at the changes at all and are completely trolling. How can you even comment on my grasp on mechinics when you completely screw up some something as simple as what effects proc rates.How in gods name can you tell me to run a parse when i am on test and testing this w a parse program and you however have not tested one single change. You are regurgitating vomit on these forums without any testing. You have no idea what you are talking about, period. Ask any High end ranger currently testing content on test right now and ask them where on the parse they are located. Because clearly you do not have a clue where high end rangers are parsing on test right now.

Gungo

04-01-2008, 02:23 PM

<cite>Krakelkrak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>How in gods name is not upgrading a weapon which has one fo the most overpowered effects taking anything away. It is alreadyy the best bow in game by ALOT. Secondly if you think you are losing dps by making a combat art faster reuse without changing its damage value. you need serious help in learning game mechanics. </blockquote>Both the above sentences are wrong. The best bow is the mythical epic oviously, not the fabled. The fabled doesn't have any effect you could conseider overpowered. ("The Fabled Eagle's Talon should do slightly more damage"<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />Aeralik wrote that combat art casting time was reduced, not recast time. ("Trick Shot, double Shot and Leg shot lines have had their casting times reduced to .5 seconds"<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>I am sorry i probably wasn't clear.Ty posted reduced proc rates due to cast time reductions.FACT: cast times have absolutly nothing to do with proc rates.Reuse and recovery effect proc rates. faster cast times will simply increase dps due to less delay between CA's/autoatksYou need to reread the qoute i am talking about the MYTHICAL NOT FABLED. Ty said that they did not increase the mythical and thus take away from rangers. How in gods name is rangers losing something by not getting what ty wants.The mythical as you even said is the best bow in game by alot. It does not need an upgrade. Learn to read. Take a look. Its in a book. The reading rainbow. Edit: i decided to add ty's qoute to help in your reading progress. I highlighted and underlined important parts to help you understand how to read. I will admit the way i worded the reuse time was misleading. But cast times does not effect combat art proc rates at all. Reuse/recovery does.And once again you do not loose anything by not upgrading the best Bow already in game. Yes he was wrong. Yes you were wrong. Glad we all clearified this situation.<cite>Tyberion@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>So we have: <ul><li>a DPS bump for the fabled ET, which was needed. </li><li>Reduced proc rate on three CAs due to shorter cast time </li><li>No DPS boost for other T8 bows or the Mythical ET</li></ul>Give with one hand take with the other.Atleast the SOE trend is continuing strong.</blockquote>

Tyberi

04-01-2008, 05:55 PM

Proc rate of CA and Spells is Cast time, not Recast.You're proven wrong nearly every single time you speak about mechanics on flames, it boggles the mind why you try here. Well other than the fact that you can hide behind the rules and not be called out and flamed for it here.I mean seriously, do I need to go find the posts where you were arguing vehemently that auto attack landed during recovery time after a CA/Spell? That was just a two or three months ago at very most.

Ranja

04-01-2008, 06:14 PM

<cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Krakelkrak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gungo@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>How in gods name is not upgrading a weapon which has one fo the most overpowered effects taking anything away. It is alreadyy the best bow in game by ALOT. Secondly if you think you are losing dps by making a combat art faster reuse without changing its damage value. you need serious help in learning game mechanics. </blockquote>Both the above sentences are wrong. The best bow is the mythical epic oviously, not the fabled. The fabled doesn't have any effect you could conseider overpowered. ("The Fabled Eagle's Talon should do slightly more damage"<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" />Aeralik wrote that combat art casting time was reduced, not recast time. ("Trick Shot, double Shot and Leg shot lines have had their casting times reduced to .5 seconds"<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>I am sorry i probably wasn't clear.Ty posted reduced proc rates due to cast time reductions.FACT: cast times have absolutly nothing to do with proc rates.Reuse and recovery effect proc rates. faster cast times will simply increase dps due to less delay between CA's/autoatksYou need to reread the qoute i am talking about the MYTHICAL NOT FABLED. Ty said that they did not increase the mythical and thus take away from rangers. How in gods name is rangers losing something by not getting what ty wants.The mythical as you even said is the best bow in game by alot. It does not need an upgrade. Learn to read. Take a look. Its in a book. The reading rainbow. Edit: i decided to add ty's qoute to help in your reading progress. I highlighted and underlined important parts to help you understand how to read. I will admit the way i worded the reuse time was misleading. But cast times does not effect combat art proc rates at all. Reuse/recovery does.And once again you do not loose anything by not upgrading the best Bow already in game. Yes he was wrong. Yes you were wrong. Glad we all clearified this situation.<cite>Tyberion@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>So we have: <ul><li>a DPS bump for the fabled ET, which was needed. </li><li>Reduced proc rate on three CAs due to shorter cast time </li><li>No DPS boost for other T8 bows or the Mythical ET</li></ul>Give with one hand take with the other.Atleast the SOE trend is continuing strong.</blockquote></blockquote>How can recast and recovery affect proc rates? I dont profess to know anything so if these two things do affect proc rate (other than you can cast that CA more therefor it procs more) I would like to know how?

Gungo

04-01-2008, 06:17 PM

You are right. It is cast(+recovery) not recast that effects proc rates. Although reuse effects how often you cast and can proc. You still have absolutely no clue how well rangers are doing on test right now. Egh I do fine on flames. I don't expect any more changes to happen on test regarding ranger dps. So we can wait and show everyone how full of it you truly are. Bottom line is ranger dps is fine on test.

Tyberi

04-01-2008, 06:52 PM

Fine != Appropriate for the class. Which is my biggest problem with these changes.The DPS potential for Rangers should be on equal footing with the DPS potential of Assassins, if not Wizards, at the bare minimum.But the changes being made are showing zero improvement for this tier, it is almost like the groundwork is being laid for real and noticeable improvements to be made in the next expansion/level cap raise.

Krakelkr

04-02-2008, 04:00 AM

Ops. Can't believe I misread that so much.

Corwinus

04-02-2008, 11:32 AM

Fellows,This post is a more detailled view on the changes made the Ranger CAs so far, I am posting this here because so far this post has been factual and less subject to controversy. I personnally think that we should keep the fierce exchange of opinions or flames (which has every right to be) in the "arrow change" thread for a better clarity.I am starting with the Ranged CAs ON LIVE<img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2190/2382435032_1120eb64e1_b.jpg" alt="" width="1024" height="615" border="0" />ON TEST<img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3131/2382435314_a9ffba546d_b.jpg" alt="" width="1024" height="615" border="0" />You will notice that the changes only affected - Blame Arrow (casting time divided by 2 and about 7.3 % damage increase)- Searing shot (casting time divided by 2 and about 12.5 % damage increase)- Roped Shot (casting time divided by 2 and about 6.7 % damage increase)All the other Ranged CAs are untouched.On a side note, I wish that we would be able to test a similar increase in all other CAs. Even measured as in the 3 CAs mentionned above.It would make sense in order to test the new bow/arrow mechanics.Corwin/Oasis/Cotw

Corwinus

04-02-2008, 11:54 AM

Fellow Rangers,I have taken a series of screenshots that I will post here because this thread created by Domo seems more facts related than controversial.I suggest that we keep the fierce exchange of opinions to the "arrow change" thread to keep this one more readable.Ranged Cas on LIVE <img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2190/2382435032_1120eb64e1_b.jpg" alt="" width="1024" height="615" border="0" />

Corwinus

04-02-2008, 11:57 AM

Ranged CAs on TEST<img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2365/2381604895_e3a1a19e6b_b.jpg" alt="" width="1024" height="610" border="0" />You will notice that the changes only affected - Blame Arrow (casting time divided by 2 and about 7.3 % damage increase)- Searing shot (casting time divided by 2 and about 12.5 % damage increase)- Roped Shot (casting time divided by 2 and about 6.7 % damage increase)All the other Ranged CAs are untouched.On a side note, I wish that we would be able to test a similar increase in all other CAs. Even measured as in the 3 CAs mentionned above.It would make sense in order to test the new bow/arrow mechanics.CheersCorwin/Oasis/Cotw

Odawnus Haste

04-02-2008, 11:58 AM

nm you already corrected it.

Corwinus

04-02-2008, 11:59 AM

Now the melee CAsmelee CAs on LIVE<img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3131/2382435314_a9ffba546d_b.jpg" alt="" width="1024" height="615" border="0" />

Corwinus

04-02-2008, 12:21 PM

Melee CAs on TEST<img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3026/2381605203_55a1446e17_b.jpg" alt="" width="1024" height="610" border="0" /> You will notice that All melee CAs have been upgraded except the melee CAs that we get from the AA predator lines like Spinning Spear, Point Blank Shot or Poison Combination in my caseIn a nutshell :- Mortal Reminder sees its duration reduced by 8 secs but first damages increased by about 18% as well as reccurring damage increased by 23.5% and applied more often (every 2.6 secs instead of every 4 secs) - Immobilization Lunge damage increased by about 8.5%- Combustion Strike damage increased by about 7.2%- Kunark Blade damage increased by about 5.6%- Jolting Strike damage increased by about 7.4%- Arrow Tear damage increased by about 8%- Long Stab damage increased by about 8%On a side note I obtained those % increase by averaging the % increase of the min and the % increase of the max. CheersCorwin/Oasis/Cotw

Corwinus

04-02-2008, 12:32 PM

Fellow Rangers,I will publish below screenshots of the setup I used for my tests both on LIVE and on TEST. The characteristics of my Ranger are rigorously the same (stats, AAs, Buffs, Equipment, ...) so that the comparison makes sense. In fact it is the difference in the result of those tests that iswill be interesting, Not the characteristics on the guinea pig Ranger by itself (which anyway is an average Ranger).Char and weapons used on LIVE<img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3051/2382435558_280f7a9107_b.jpg" alt="" width="1024" height="615" border="0" />

Corwinus

04-02-2008, 12:46 PM

Char and weapons used on TEST <img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3148/2381604583_0386f75a43_b.jpg" alt="" width="1024" height="610" border="0" />You will notice - The slight increase in rating of the Eagle's Talon Fabled + 2.3 due to the increase damage of about 2%, The proc on the bow remains the same- The ferrite field point arrow adds +19 crushing damage but looses - 20% hit bonus- The ferrite bodkin arrow adds + 33 piercing damage but looses -10% hit bonus-The ferrite broadhead arrow adds + 50 slashing damage and remains the same otherwise

Corwinus

04-02-2008, 01:11 PM

Test results from 04-01-2008All tests were performed on the wall in KJ. I perfectly understand that it is a limited test, the wall is only level 76 and has not the resistances that we should expect from an heroic or an Epic yello or Orange mob. But until the Test environment provided adequate test dummies, this is all we got.I recorded the results using ACT 2.7.0 184 for parserI made 4 sets of test both on LIVE and on TEST- Combo Range AA and Range CAs - 10 kills- Combor Melee AA and melee - 10 killsThen, with the input of Elesith another Ranger doing tests at the same time I decided to have a closer look at Auto Attack only and I added- Range AA only - 5 kills- Melee AA only - 5 kills1. Combo Range AA and Range CAs on LIVE<img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2213/2381613387_6f1982daa8_o.jpg" alt="" width="1261" height="767" border="0" />

Corwinus

04-02-2008, 01:38 PM

2. Combo Range AA and Range CAs on TEST<img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2317/2381588027_25774684c4_o.jpg" alt="" width="1261" height="767" border="0" />You will first notice that the repartition of the damage types is very similar, which means that the comparison of the different CAs damage will be relevnat. I am not going to detail the differences CAs by CAs, I will leave you this curiosity. But all in all- There was 22% more damage on TEST (in absolute)- the extended DPS was better on LIVE by about 9%- the average damage is very similar on LIVE and on TEST ( a little bit superior on test) which can be explained by the fact that only 3 ranged CAs have been upped so far (blame Arrow, searing shot and roped shot)- There was a 22% increase of hits on TEST whis is correlated to the 22% more damage mentioned above- There was though only a 12% increase in critical hits, I would have thought that those too could be correlated to the damage increase output.CheersCorwin/Oasis/Cotw

Corwinus

04-02-2008, 01:43 PM

3. Combo melee AA and melee CAs on LIVETo be frank melee is not my forte, so the numbers may seem weak to some people, but again what you have to look at is the difference between the 2 environments.<img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2036/2382419618_35ee4bea49_o.jpg" alt="" width="1261" height="767" border="0" />

Corwinus

04-02-2008, 02:09 PM

4. Combo melee AA and melee CAs on TEST<img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3002/2382419708_0e982871d0_o.jpg" alt="" width="1261" height="767" border="0" />The repartition of the damage types is not similar this time, there is a decrease in pierce but an increase in all melee CAs that have been upped ( Mortal reminder, immobilizing lunge, combustion strike, kunark blade, jolting strike, arrow tear and long stab). You can look by yourself at the differences the differences CAs by CAs, I will leave you this curiosity. But all in all- There was 19.5% more damage on TEST (in absolute)- the extended DPS was better on TEST by about 35%- the average damage was better on LIVE by about 4% but i wonder if this is significant - There was a 22.5% increase of hits on TEST whis is correlated to the 19.5% more damage mentioned above- There was though a 15.5% increase in critical hits on TESTCheersCorwin/Oasis/Cotw

Corwinus

04-02-2008, 02:19 PM

Now I am getting into the Auto attack test results 5. Range AA only on LIVE<img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2245/2381588213_def2f5a3f6_o.jpg" alt="" width="1261" height="767" border="0" />

Corwinus

04-02-2008, 02:35 PM

6. Range AA on TEST<img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2227/2381588155_fa3d9b4ef8_o.jpg" alt="" width="1261" height="767" border="0" />You The repartition of the damage types is very similar. All in all- There was no significant increase in damage from LIVE to TEST- the extended DPS was better on TEST by about 16.5%- the average damage was better on TEST by about 14% - should be related to the bow and arrow damage increase- There was a 14% more hits on LIVE - The critical hits were the same on LIVE and on TESTIn a Nutshell we hit less but harder for comparable resultsCheersCorwin/Oasis/Cotw

Corwinus

04-02-2008, 02:37 PM

7. melee AA on live<img src="http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2365/2381588185_718472c24c_o.jpg" alt="" width="1261" height="767" border="0" />

Corwinus

04-02-2008, 02:53 PM

8.Melee AA on TEST <img src="http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3288/2382419756_84322f9e61_o.jpg" alt="" width="1261" height="767" border="0" /> Very much the same, no significant differencesWell, sorry if those posts were a bit long and image heavy. I thought it would be interesting to share this with you. I would be very eager to know if your test experience reflects the same or not and why. Those tests are not your typical " sweet spot" range and melee combination ON PURPOSE. In order to better define what has changed in Melee and in Range separatelyI tried to conduct those tests honestly and in a transparent manner, but I am only human so mistakes are always a possibility. CheersCorwin/Oasis/Cotw

Runewind

04-02-2008, 04:52 PM

Thanks a lot for collecting this data, Cor.This seems in line with what I've seen in my own tests. My latest one (after the March 31st patch) showed an increase from around 1900 DPS on live to around 2900 DPS on test using both ranged and melee CAs. In-all I'm seeing an increase in DPS. I believe the reason that we only saw on increase on three of our ranged CAs is because those are the only ones that are considered "fast casting." It's still strange to see that we're losing damage on test at all in the ranged only department and I wish I knew why (it doesn't really seem to make sense if our Auto Attacks are doing about the same damage) Overall, though, an increase in combat while using all of our CAs is still a good thing. What still concerns me is the loss of accuracy on our arrows (I did some testing on blue heroic mobs and it doesn't seem to change our accuracy much. I'm thinking it would make more of a difference on yellow and orange ones, however.) And the nerf to the lower tier bows still concerns me for rangers who are below tier 8.

BigChiefJJ

04-02-2008, 06:20 PM

The change in cast time for the ‘short cast CAs' although helpful; I don't think this was the problem in most group instances and trash raid mobs that rangers were having problems with. Its always been the longer casting CA's with the longer reuse times that held us back on ‘every other fight' or the fact that I'm staring a fight and my long recast CA's are down so I burn through my fast cast ones, then when devitalizing arrow comes up, I hit it but the mob is dead before it actually goes off. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it be more beneficial for us if they reduced these CA cast speeds or reuse timers?While the increase in damage to our melee CA's is nice this does mean that rangers will be relying more heavily on their melee CA's and ranged CA's and will defiantly have to be more careful to no let any melee autoattacks go off as we are being balanced on our Ranged AA damage and not our melee AA damage.

Corwinus

04-02-2008, 06:41 PM

<cite>Runewind wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks a lot for collecting this data, Cor.This seems in line with what I've seen in my own tests. My latest one (after the March 31st patch) showed an increase from around 1900 DPS on live to around 2900 DPS on test using both ranged and melee CAs. In-all I'm seeing an increase in DPS. I believe the reason that we only saw on increase on three of our ranged CAs is because those are the only ones that are considered "fast casting." It's still strange to see that we're losing damage on test at all in the ranged only department and I wish I knew why (it doesn't really seem to make sense if our Auto Attacks are doing about the same damage) Overall, though, an increase in combat while using all of our CAs is still a good thing. What still concerns me is the loss of accuracy on our arrows (I did some testing on blue heroic mobs and it doesn't seem to change our accuracy much. I'm thinking it would make more of a difference on yellow and orange ones, however.) And the nerf to the lower tier bows still concerns me for rangers who are below tier 8.</blockquote>Yw Rune,All in all I can live with those changes, it does not bring us close to assassins but this is another matter treated in the "arrow change" thread and in the ranger channel.At least we are not loosing anything, as SOE said ,"even a small increase". I wanted to make sure of that.I wished they upgraded more ranged CAs because of my playstyle (to be frank i am not very good at melee or at jousting), but I guess that I will have to adapt.I agree with you, we have to take in perspective the fact that we are not testing against Heroic od=r Epic mobs with resistances and as they will probably parry more we risk loosing some DPS.Other things we may want to think about (from some chat with Etesith and other fellows parsing the wall yesterday) :- If you look at your weapons melee and range and if you divide out .. actual min /base min ... actual max / base max. you will notice that the ratio for your melee weapons is always superior to the same ratio for your range weapon (for example if I look at Name: AnaphylaxisBase Damage: 99 - 394Actual Damage: 294 - 1,176Actual Delay: 4.0Proc Percent: 18.0%Procs Per Minute: 2.3the ratio is 2.9and if I look at Name: Eagle's TalonBase Damage: 458 - 1,280Actual Damage: 838 - 2,798Actual Delay: 6.0Proc Percent: 27.0%Procs Per Minute: 1.6the ratio is between 1.8(min) and 2.18(max)This is not new but it means that melee will always get a larger Boost from Stats/Mods/etc. I guess it is time for me to melee more in order to get more dps especially that now most or the melee CAs have been boosted.- Right now our damage comes more from autoattack than CAs and we see clearly that %double attack (range or not) that affects primarily Autoattack is more effective than %crit (range or not). If tomorrow our damage comes more from CAs than from AutoAttack then we might want to look at our equipment again and switch towards more %crit (range or not) which affects mainly CAs- Same thing +DPS modifier and haste affects auto attack mainly if i understood well so that mean that the return will be diminished on those.Just some thoughts hanging around, feel free to comment, ...., or notCheers,Corwin/Oasis/Cotw

Ranja

04-02-2008, 06:53 PM

<cite>Corwinus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Runewind wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks a lot for collecting this data, Cor.This seems in line with what I've seen in my own tests. My latest one (after the March 31st patch) showed an increase from around 1900 DPS on live to around 2900 DPS on test using both ranged and melee CAs. In-all I'm seeing an increase in DPS. I believe the reason that we only saw on increase on three of our ranged CAs is because those are the only ones that are considered "fast casting." It's still strange to see that we're losing damage on test at all in the ranged only department and I wish I knew why (it doesn't really seem to make sense if our Auto Attacks are doing about the same damage) Overall, though, an increase in combat while using all of our CAs is still a good thing. What still concerns me is the loss of accuracy on our arrows (I did some testing on blue heroic mobs and it doesn't seem to change our accuracy much. I'm thinking it would make more of a difference on yellow and orange ones, however.) And the nerf to the lower tier bows still concerns me for rangers who are below tier 8.</blockquote>Yw Rune,All in all I can live with those changes, it does not bring us close to assassins but this is another matter treated in the "arrow change" thread and in the ranger channel.At least we are not loosing anything, as SOE said ,"even a small increase". I wanted to make sure of that.I wished they upgraded more ranged CAs because of my playstyle (to be frank i am not very good at melee or at jousting), but I guess that I will have to adapt.I agree with you, we have to take in perspective the fact that we are not testing against Heroic od=r Epic mobs with resistances and as they will probably parry more we risk loosing some DPS.Other things we may want to think about (from some chat with Etesith and other fellows parsing the wall yesterday) :- If you look at your weapons melee and range and if you divide out .. actual min /base min ... actual max / base max. you will notice that the ratio for your melee weapons is always superior to the same ratio for your range weapon (for example if I look at Name: AnaphylaxisBase Damage: 99 - 394Actual Damage: 294 - 1,176Actual Delay: 4.0Proc Percent: 18.0%Procs Per Minute: 2.3the ratio is 2.9and if I look at Name: Eagle's TalonBase Damage: 458 - 1,280Actual Damage: 838 - 2,798Actual Delay: 6.0Proc Percent: 27.0%Procs Per Minute: 1.6the ratio is between 1.8(min) and 2.18(max)This is not new but it means that melee will always get a larger Boost from Stats/Mods/etc. I guess it is time for me to melee more in order to get more dps especially that now most or the melee CAs have been boosted.- Right now our damage comes more from autoattack than CAs and we see clearly that %double attack (range or not) that affects primarily Autoattack is more effective than %crit (range or not). If tomorrow our damage comes more from CAs than from AutoAttack then we might want to look at our equipment again and switch towards more %crit (range or not) which affects mainly CAs- Same thing +DPS modifier and haste affects auto attack mainly if i understood well so that mean that the return will be diminished on those.Just some thoughts hanging around, feel free to comment, ...., or notCheers,Corwin/Oasis/Cotw</blockquote>Comments on the highlighted part. Your crit theory is wrong. Crits affect AA more because of the +1 to max damage rule. AUTO-ATTACK AND SPELLS FOLLOW THE MAX DAMAGE +1 to MAX DAMAGE * 1.3 RULE.HOWEVER COMBAT ARTS FOLLOW A STRAIGHT DAMAGE * 1.3 RULE.Obviously, this means that Auto-Attack and Spells gain more from Critical Hit Bonuses then Combat Arts.

Corwinus

04-02-2008, 07:06 PM

<cite>Ranja wrote:</cite><blockquote>Comments on the highlighted part. Your crit theory is wrong. Crits affect AA more because of the +1 to max damage rule. AUTO-ATTACK AND SPELLS FOLLOW THE MAX DAMAGE +1 to MAX DAMAGE * 1.3 RULE.HOWEVER COMBAT ARTS FOLLOW A STRAIGHT DAMAGE * 1.3 RULE.Obviously, this means that Auto-Attack and Spells gain more from Critical Hit Bonuses then Combat Arts. </blockquote>OK Ranja thx for the precisionCor

Tyberi

04-02-2008, 07:52 PM

<cite>Wodreaux@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>The change in cast time for the ‘short cast CAs' although helpful; I don't think this was the problem in most group instances and trash raid mobs that rangers were having problems with. Its always been the longer casting CA's with the longer reuse times that held us back on ‘every other fight' or the fact that I'm staring a fight and my long recast CA's are down so I burn through my fast cast ones, then when devitalizing arrow comes up, I hit it but the mob is dead before it actually goes off. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it be more beneficial for us if they reduced these CA cast speeds or reuse timers?Yes. The current reduced CA cast timers only decreases the proc rate for these abilities.While the increase in damage to our melee CA's is nice this does mean that rangers will be relying more heavily on their melee CA's and ranged CA's and will defiantly have to be more careful to no let any melee autoattacks go off as we are being balanced on our Ranged AA damage and not our melee AA damage. </blockquote>As for the second part, the highest parsing rangers already are standing at a range where they can use melee CAs and still ranged auto attack and use ranged CA. All these changes do is increase ranger DPS through CA damage to bring them more in line with what Aeralik thinks the split between auto attack and CA damage is for other scouts.

kartikeya

04-03-2008, 04:56 AM

<cite>Tyberion@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wodreaux@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>The change in cast time for the ‘short cast CAs' although helpful; I don't think this was the problem in most group instances and trash raid mobs that rangers were having problems with. Its always been the longer casting CA's with the longer reuse times that held us back on ‘every other fight' or the fact that I'm staring a fight and my long recast CA's are down so I burn through my fast cast ones, then when devitalizing arrow comes up, I hit it but the mob is dead before it actually goes off. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it be more beneficial for us if they reduced these CA cast speeds or reuse timers?Yes. The current reduced CA cast timers only decreases the proc rate for these abilities.While the increase in damage to our melee CA's is nice this does mean that rangers will be relying more heavily on their melee CA's and ranged CA's and will defiantly have to be more careful to no let any melee autoattacks go off as we are being balanced on our Ranged AA damage and not our melee AA damage. </blockquote>As for the second part, the highest parsing rangers already are standing at a range where they can use melee CAs and still ranged auto attack and use ranged CA. All these changes do is increase ranger DPS through CA damage to bring them more in line with what Aeralik thinks the split between auto attack and CA damage is for other scouts.</blockquote>You just know the next thing to go will be the sweet spot. It'll be ninja'd into some update without prior warning and labelled as a bug fix, then it'll be implied we're all exploiters for using it.Okay, no, I'm not being productive any more. I'm just really tired and aggravated by how we have to talk down a nerf rather than getting a boost. The revisionist history about how the T7 bows are/were overpowered is wonderful too. Oh, and the blanket nerf to all tiers below T8. It's really a neat trick, hammer a class with a nerf when they need a boost you don't want to give them, then gradually give them back what they had before as a 'compromise', maybe toss in a bit extra if they're well behaved. I hope this turns out for the best, I really do. And I hate to be the soppy, whiny one going 'wah, the devs hate me'. But I am so tired. If we get to where we need to be with this, awesome. I'll wait and see. But I'm not holding my breath.If nothing else, the way this whole matter was handled was bad. BAD. I've seen some bad CS flubs before, especially from SOE, but good God.

Freliant

04-03-2008, 09:34 AM

<cite>kartikeya wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Tyberion@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Wodreaux@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote>The change in cast time for the ‘short cast CAs' although helpful; I don't think this was the problem in most group instances and trash raid mobs that rangers were having problems with. Its always been the longer casting CA's with the longer reuse times that held us back on ‘every other fight' or the fact that I'm staring a fight and my long recast CA's are down so I burn through my fast cast ones, then when devitalizing arrow comes up, I hit it but the mob is dead before it actually goes off. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it be more beneficial for us if they reduced these CA cast speeds or reuse timers?Yes. The current reduced CA cast timers only decreases the proc rate for these abilities.While the increase in damage to our melee CA's is nice this does mean that rangers will be relying more heavily on their melee CA's and ranged CA's and will defiantly have to be more careful to no let any melee autoattacks go off as we are being balanced on our Ranged AA damage and not our melee AA damage. </blockquote>As for the second part, the highest parsing rangers already are standing at a range where they can use melee CAs and still ranged auto attack and use ranged CA. All these changes do is increase ranger DPS through CA damage to bring them more in line with what Aeralik thinks the split between auto attack and CA damage is for other scouts.</blockquote>You just know the next thing to go will be the sweet spot. It'll be ninja'd into some update without prior warning and labelled as a bug fix, then it'll be implied we're all exploiters for using it.Okay, no, I'm not being productive any more. I'm just really tired and aggravated by how we have to talk down a nerf rather than getting a boost. The revisionist history about how the T7 bows are/were overpowered is wonderful too. Oh, and the blanket nerf to all tiers below T8. It's really a neat trick, hammer a class with a nerf when they need a boost you don't want to give them, then gradually give them back what they had before as a 'compromise', maybe toss in a bit extra if they're well behaved. I hope this turns out for the best, I really do. And I hate to be the soppy, whiny one going 'wah, the devs hate me'. But I am so tired. If we get to where we need to be with this, awesome. I'll wait and see. But I'm not holding my breath.If nothing else, the way this whole matter was handled was bad. BAD. I've seen some bad CS flubs before, especially from SOE, but good God.</blockquote>Yep, I noticed a bit of "the tireds" in your post as well <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/49869fe8223507d7223db3451e5321aa.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> If its any consolation though, the ranger class as a whole is still coming out of this better than they were before. True, bow damage was reduced overall, but with the other increases the ranger has been getting, they are actually above where they were before these fixes. The class is being made less dependant on weapons, and more dependant on their CAs and other forms of damage. IMO this is a good thing, because that means that a well played ranger would be able to do good dps, even if he doesn't have the best bow from the highest raid instance.Sleep well, and come back refreshed, you will find that these changes are not as bad as they appear to be ^_^

Entilor

04-03-2008, 09:47 AM

<cite>Corwinus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>...</cite> Other things we may want to think about (from some chat with Etesith and other fellows parsing the wall yesterday) :- If you look at your weapons melee and range and if you divide out .. actual min /base min ... actual max / base max. you will notice that the ratio for your melee weapons is always superior to the same ratio for your range weapon (for example if I look at Name: AnaphylaxisBase Damage: 99 - 394Actual Damage: 294 - 1,176Actual Delay: 4.0Proc Percent: 18.0%Procs Per Minute: 2.3the ratio is 2.9and if I look at Name: Eagle's TalonBase Damage: 458 - 1,280Actual Damage: 838 - 2,798Actual Delay: 6.0Proc Percent: 27.0%Procs Per Minute: 1.6the ratio is between 1.8(min) and 2.18(max)This is not new but it means that melee will always get a larger Boost from Stats/Mods/etc. I guess it is time for me to melee more in order to get more dps especially that now most or the melee CAs have been boosted.- Right now our damage comes more from autoattack than CAs and we see clearly that %double attack (range or not) that affects primarily Autoattack is more effective than %crit (range or not). If tomorrow our damage comes more from CAs than from AutoAttack then we might want to look at our equipment again and switch towards more %crit (range or not) which affects mainly CAs- Same thing +DPS modifier and haste affects auto attack mainly if i understood well so that mean that the return will be diminished on those.Just some thoughts hanging around, feel free to comment, ...., or notCheers,Corwin/Oasis/Cotw-----------------------------------------------------------The Mods - crit,DA, DPS, etc ...%1 DA = +%1 on Auto%1 CA = +.3% on CAs + .67% (ET Fabled) on Auto Corwin points out that - The benefit of DA vs Crit is a function of the ratio of Auto attack DPS / CA DPS.This is in fact more then a just simple calculation to make.but overall the benifits of DA,Crit,DPS mods drop significantly as auto DPS does Ent aka Etesith </blockquote>

Corwinus

04-03-2008, 11:39 AM

<cite>Entilor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Corwinus wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>...</cite> Other things we may want to think about (from some chat with Etesith and other fellows parsing the wall yesterday) :- If you look at your weapons melee and range and if you divide out .. actual min /base min ... actual max / base max. you will notice that the ratio for your melee weapons is always superior to the same ratio for your range weapon (for example if I look at Name: AnaphylaxisBase Damage: 99 - 394Actual Damage: 294 - 1,176Actual Delay: 4.0Proc Percent: 18.0%Procs Per Minute: 2.3the ratio is 2.9and if I look at Name: Eagle's TalonBase Damage: 458 - 1,280Actual Damage: 838 - 2,798Actual Delay: 6.0Proc Percent: 27.0%Procs Per Minute: 1.6the ratio is between 1.8(min) and 2.18(max)This is not new but it means that melee will always get a larger Boost from Stats/Mods/etc. I guess it is time for me to melee more in order to get more dps especially that now most or the melee CAs have been boosted.- Right now our damage comes more from autoattack than CAs and we see clearly that %double attack (range or not) that affects primarily Autoattack is more effective than %crit (range or not). If tomorrow our damage comes more from CAs than from AutoAttack then we might want to look at our equipment again and switch towards more %crit (range or not) which affects mainly CAs- Same thing +DPS modifier and haste affects auto attack mainly if i understood well so that mean that the return will be diminished on those.Just some thoughts hanging around, feel free to comment, ...., or notCheers,Corwin/Oasis/Cotw-----------------------------------------------------------The Mods - crit,DA, DPS, etc ...%1 DA = +%1 on Auto%1 CA = +.3% on CAs + .67% (ET Fabled) on Auto Corwin points out that - The benefit of DA vs Crit is a function of the ratio of Auto attack DPS / CA DPS.This is in fact more then a just simple calculation to make.but overall the benifits of DA,Crit,DPS mods drop significantly as auto DPS does Ent aka Etesith </blockquote></blockquote>

Corwinus

04-03-2008, 11:43 AM

<cite>Entilor wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>The Mods - crit,DA, DPS, etc ...%1 DA = +%1 on Auto%1 CA = +.3% on CAs + .67% (ET Fabled) on Auto Corwin points out that - The benefit of DA vs Crit is a function of the ratio of Auto attack DPS / CA DPS.This is in fact more then a just simple calculation to make.but overall the benifits of DA,Crit,DPS mods drop significantly as auto DPS does Ent aka Etesith </blockquote></blockquote>Sorry double post, I am so bad without my 1st coffee ;(I am glad you are posting Etesith <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I was trying to retrace our interesting conversation near the wall the other day. We all needs a guy strong on numbers like you.Cheers,Cor

Anekuh

04-03-2008, 04:11 PM

Just in case someone missed my post on arrow change, I figure I copy it over here since everyone is talking about numbers and all.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------DPS Setup- I have no proccing weapons or cloaks (plus I don't have Maestro or Buckler of Howler). I prefer not to use them in these kinda of test anyway since they have a habit of skewing the results. Keep in mind, we are focusing on arrows and overall dps.Melee weapons: Betrayl's and Spell Skewer (or something....)I am using Fabled ET as my bow.And yes, I was using Caustic poison (since every ranger uses poisons)Base stats:667 STR 24 DPS mod 75 Haste35 Range Crit16 Range DAI can't seem to export from ACT to these forums. If someone can show me how, then I will be more than happy to do it. Since I can't do it, I'll just post the exit dps.I used ferrite bodkin arrows for my first parse.Kunzar Jungle - [19] 9:23:47 AM | training wall - [00:48] 9:41:53 AMExit DPS: 2699.98The next parse, I used Field broadhead arrows. Kunzar Jungle - [19] 9:23:47 AM | training wall - [00:49] 9:53:47 AMExit DPS 2657.18The last 2 parses, I used ferrite field point.Kunzar Jungle - [19] 9:23:47 AM | training wall - [00:42] 9:57:03 AMExit DPS 3077.02Kunzar Jungle - [19] 9:23:47 AM | training wall - [00:54] 10:00:24 AMExit DPS 2430.82The last 2 parses were odd. I double checked both of them and I found out that the first parse with the field point I crit about 12 more than the other parses. So, I did a second and I crit about 9 times less than normal. So, the avg of the 2 comes out to be: 2753 exit dps.So, there you have it. Field point is the best arrow atm. Keep in mind that I did not used sniper, honed reflexes, or killing instinct. And I only used focus one time per battle.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------How does this compare to different type of bows??? I suggest someone do the same parse with the same conditions that I have. Now, I don't expect the exact haste,dps,str.etc.... but i'm sure we can come close. I would like to see the Mythical bow, Vol'drath, and a couple other bows from VP and maybe Seb bow.Once we have all of that, then we can see if all the bows are in good order. Keep in mind I am not interested in outside factors like procs, buff potions, etc... I know they help overall dps (just like correct grouping), but we it looks better to have just a base parse (or in this case your gear and poisons).

Freliant

04-03-2008, 04:24 PM

For someone else to duplicate what you have done, they need to equip the exact same things you equiped. Its best if you equip all mastercrafted gear, and that those others doing the test with other bows do the same thing. The other problem is, they do not know your CA rotation. That can translate to a huge difference in DPS from one person to the next. In fact, a person can have your exact same setup, and if they do their CA rotation well enough, can outparse you by alot.Also, is there a reason you did not do Focus Aim or Sniper shot? Aren't those essential Ranger CAs? So are potions buffs and a slew of other things... Anyways, that is besides the point, lets let people do their studies with the other equipment if at all possible, but remember that there will be differences as a result of gear/stats and CAs.

Anekuh

04-03-2008, 04:36 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>For someone else to duplicate what you have done, they need to equip the exact same things you equiped. Its best if you equip all mastercrafted gear, and that those others doing the test with other bows do the same thing. The other problem is, they do not know your CA rotation. That can translate to a huge difference in DPS from one person to the next. In fact, a person can have your exact same setup, and if they do their CA rotation well enough, can outparse you by alot.Also, is there a reason you did not do Focus Aim or Sniper shot? Aren't those essential Ranger CAs? So are potions buffs and a slew of other things... Anyways, that is besides the point, lets let people do their studies with the other equipment if at all possible, but remember that there will be differences as a result of gear/stats and CAs.</blockquote>Focus aim was used once every battle.As for CA rotation, everyone has their own method. The bottom line is that you will used them all up while parsing the wall. So, you don't need an exact CA rotation. (Plus, any ranger worth their salt will know a solid CA rotation will max out dps).Sniper takes time to pull off and thus will decrease your overall dps (i think it is almost 4 seconds or something). Keep in mind we are looking at 2 important factors here: Actual bow dps and arrow dps. Are tier 8 bows in line? Are arrows in line as well? Is there an increase from the live servers? These are the questions that need to be answered.

Freliant

04-03-2008, 04:46 PM

<cite>Anekuh wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>For someone else to duplicate what you have done, they need to equip the exact same things you equiped. Its best if you equip all mastercrafted gear, and that those others doing the test with other bows do the same thing. The other problem is, they do not know your CA rotation. That can translate to a huge difference in DPS from one person to the next. In fact, a person can have your exact same setup, and if they do their CA rotation well enough, can outparse you by alot.Also, is there a reason you did not do Focus Aim or Sniper shot? Aren't those essential Ranger CAs? So are potions buffs and a slew of other things... Anyways, that is besides the point, lets let people do their studies with the other equipment if at all possible, but remember that there will be differences as a result of gear/stats and CAs.</blockquote>Focus aim was used once every battle.As for CA rotation, everyone has their own method. The bottom line is that you will used them all up while parsing the wall. So, you don't need an exact CA rotation. (Plus, any ranger worth their salt will know a solid CA rotation will max out dps).Sniper takes time to pull off and thus will decrease your overall dps (i think it is almost 4 seconds or something). Keep in mind we are looking at 2 important factors here: Actual bow dps and arrow dps. Are tier 8 bows in line? Are arrows in line as well? Is there an increase from the live servers? These are the questions that need to be answered.</blockquote>kk, point taken. I would also like to see T8 bow progression. I don't have em, so I can't do anything here, but I do know some people have them. Fabled ET and the VP bows tested to see where they stand in progression from one another. BTW, maybe I am unsure, but hasn't someone... Cor... already done this comparison? He used the RSB and some other bows, which I don't quite remember at the moment... hmmm...

Anekuh

04-03-2008, 04:49 PM

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Anekuh wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>For someone else to duplicate what you have done, they need to equip the exact same things you equiped. Its best if you equip all mastercrafted gear, and that those others doing the test with other bows do the same thing. The other problem is, they do not know your CA rotation. That can translate to a huge difference in DPS from one person to the next. In fact, a person can have your exact same setup, and if they do their CA rotation well enough, can outparse you by alot.Also, is there a reason you did not do Focus Aim or Sniper shot? Aren't those essential Ranger CAs? So are potions buffs and a slew of other things... Anyways, that is besides the point, lets let people do their studies with the other equipment if at all possible, but remember that there will be differences as a result of gear/stats and CAs.</blockquote>Focus aim was used once every battle.As for CA rotation, everyone has their own method. The bottom line is that you will used them all up while parsing the wall. So, you don't need an exact CA rotation. (Plus, any ranger worth their salt will know a solid CA rotation will max out dps).Sniper takes time to pull off and thus will decrease your overall dps (i think it is almost 4 seconds or something). Keep in mind we are looking at 2 important factors here: Actual bow dps and arrow dps. Are tier 8 bows in line? Are arrows in line as well? Is there an increase from the live servers? These are the questions that need to be answered.</blockquote>kk, point taken. I would also like to see T8 bow progression. I don't have em, so I can't do anything here, but I do know some people have them. Fabled ET and the VP bows tested to see where they stand in progression from one another. BTW, maybe I am unsure, but hasn't someone... Cor... already done this comparison? He used the RSB and some other bows, which I don't quite remember at the moment... hmmm... </blockquote>I am in the same boat. Sadly, I only have one bow (Fabeld ET) to use. This is why I'm asking everyone else to pitch in. I wish I could just summon the bows on test so that I can test them out.

Badaxe Ba

04-03-2008, 04:50 PM

Just an idea to create a more standardized testing, as some have tried to do. Of course racial benefits will even then somewhat skew the results.You start with a baseline, ie. nothing equipped but bow and arrows. Specific bow, specific arrows. This removes outside factors that can have different results for different players, such as different gear, armor, etc.You then create your data by doing sets, not using Focus Aim or any other buffs, as not everyone will have the same level of skill (app1 to M2). I would suggest 10 sets of 100, for whatever you are testing for. This will help produce a more constant average, as everyone will have individual differences over the short runs, but a larger database will compensate for these.This can establish a baseline datapoint that everyone should see the same figures, with negligible differences.Corwin has been heading on the right track with the data he has provided so far in the GU 44 arrow changes thread. The difficulty so far is the discrepancies brought about by different stats/equipment/bows/skills/levels etc.Even just equipping simply your bow and arrows will bring a much closer level between different testers. Further thought into the matter would also mean removing AA trees temporarily while testing, and even going so far as to temporarily remove all factors that could induce skews from the baseline by respeccing.Doing tests this way can establish the differences between specific bows without additional factors that induce to many random variables.True testing must include a baseline, without which the topend is pretty much useless unless you have a baseline to compare it to.

Anekuh

04-03-2008, 04:59 PM

<cite>Harry@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just an idea to create a more standardized testing, as some have tried to do. Of course racial benefits will even then somewhat skew the results.You start with a baseline, ie. nothing equipped but bow and arrows. Specific bow, specific arrows. This removes outside factors that can have different results for different players, such as different gear, armor, etc.You then create your data by doing sets, not using Focus Aim or any other buffs, as not everyone will have the same level of skill (app1 to M2). I would suggest 10 sets of 100, for whatever you are testing for. This will help produce a more constant average, as everyone will have individual differences over the short runs, but a larger database will compensate for these.This can establish a baseline datapoint that everyone should see the same figures, with negligible differences.Corwin has been heading on the right track with the data he has provided so far in the GU 44 arrow changes thread. The difficulty so far is the discrepancies brought about by different stats/equipment/bows/skills/levels etc.Even just equipping simply your bow and arrows will bring a much closer level between different testers. Further thought into the matter would also mean removing AA trees temporarily while testing, and even going so far as to temporarily remove all factors that could induce skews from the baseline by respeccing.Doing tests this way can establish the differences between specific bows without additional factors that induce to many random variables.True testing must include a baseline, without which the topend is pretty much useless unless you have a baseline to compare it to.</blockquote>You can still do a standard test with all CAs and self buffs. Sure, no one will have the exact haste or dps, but you need to do more that one test (just post your haste, dps, and whatever so that everyone knows). Look at your parse and find out if something skewed. The biggest factor will always be crits. I suggest do 5 parses and add all exit dps numbers and divide by 5. That will give a good average with good and bad parses.The worst thing we can do is not even try it out.

Badaxe Ba

04-04-2008, 04:08 PM

<cite>Anekuh wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Harry@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just an idea to create a more standardized testing, as some have tried to do. Of course racial benefits will even then somewhat skew the results.You start with a baseline, ie. nothing equipped but bow and arrows. Specific bow, specific arrows. This removes outside factors that can have different results for different players, such as different gear, armor, etc.You then create your data by doing sets, not using Focus Aim or any other buffs, as not everyone will have the same level of skill (app1 to M2). I would suggest 10 sets of 100, for whatever you are testing for. This will help produce a more constant average, as everyone will have individual differences over the short runs, but a larger database will compensate for these.This can establish a baseline datapoint that everyone should see the same figures, with negligible differences.Corwin has been heading on the right track with the data he has provided so far in the GU 44 arrow changes thread. The difficulty so far is the discrepancies brought about by different stats/equipment/bows/skills/levels etc.Even just equipping simply your bow and arrows will bring a much closer level between different testers. Further thought into the matter would also mean removing AA trees temporarily while testing, and even going so far as to temporarily remove all factors that could induce skews from the baseline by respeccing.Doing tests this way can establish the differences between specific bows without additional factors that induce to many random variables.True testing must include a baseline, without which the topend is pretty much useless unless you have a baseline to compare it to.</blockquote>You can still do a standard test with all CAs and self buffs. Sure, no one will have the exact haste or dps, but you need to do more that one test (just post your haste, dps, and whatever so that everyone knows). Look at your parse and find out if something skewed. The biggest factor will always be crits. I suggest do 5 parses and add all exit dps numbers and divide by 5. That will give a good average with good and bad parses.The worst thing we can do is not even try it out.</blockquote>You can test anything you want really, but in order to establish a baseline, two things must be done. You must eliminate any unknown variables, and you must establish a data set large enough to obtain both a minimum, maximum and average figure.5 sets isn't enough, to be honest. Yes, standing around to do enough sets to gain enough data is not exactly my idea of fun either, but doing testing the other way (by compilating CA's, buffs, casting order, etc.) will only be effective IF every person testing does every thing the same, hence the difference in the posted DPS rates so far. Not to mention all the other little factors, such as adornments, gear procs, haste bonuses, dps modifiers, etc. These are all designed to increase dps rate away from the baseline, hence my suggestion to find the base of the newly changed items, bows and arrows and autoattack damage.Example: A level 80 undressed unbuffed unspecced toon using a 72 MC bow (most easily obtained for testing purposes) uses 1000 autoattacks with ranger summoned arrows (worst arrows in game) while parsing. The test SHOULD give enough data to come up with a pretty acurate damage average. Actually, staticians would tell you an even larger database (10,000) would make it more accurate, but hey, after all it is a game.Then the test has to be copied on live before changes are implemented of course, in order to determine the differences between the two.1. Remove variables affecting results.2. Rigorously adhere to the same testing conditions between live and test.3. Establish a large enough database.Once your baseline data is compiled, then feel free to add bells and whistles, test different CA's, etc., but remember that the smaller the database and the more variables you add, WILL NOT give competent and reliable results across the board.On an aside, this could be accomplished by having 10 rangers try this test 100 times each and merging the data, but be aware of any different variables such as race bonuses.In a small database, such factors can have more of an effect in skewing the data, which is why you need such a large base, in order to determine more accurate results.

Tyberi

04-04-2008, 04:46 PM

To test CA's just make every CA a macro that turns Auto Attack off, remove any spell haste/recovery items, and spec out of/remove all crit items.For Auto Attack you don't want to do the CAs at the same time due to the timing or delaying of auto attack from the CAs casting in a non perfect for your current haste level manner. This can cause slight inaccuracies through a large series of tests by giving wider and narrower times spent for the damage done.

Corwinus

04-05-2008, 10:34 AM

<cite>Harry@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>You can test anything you want really, but in order to establish a baseline, two things must be done. You must eliminate any unknown variables, and you must establish a data set large enough to obtain both a minimum, maximum and average figure.5 sets isn't enough, to be honest. Yes, standing around to do enough sets to gain enough data is not exactly my idea of fun either, but doing testing the other way (by compilating CA's, buffs, casting order, etc.) will only be effective IF every person testing does every thing the same, hence the difference in the posted DPS rates so far. Not to mention all the other little factors, such as adornments, gear procs, haste bonuses, dps modifiers, etc. These are all designed to increase dps rate away from the baseline, hence my suggestion to find the base of the newly changed items, bows and arrows and autoattack damage.Example: A level 80 undressed unbuffed unspecced toon using a 72 MC bow (most easily obtained for testing purposes) uses 1000 autoattacks with ranger summoned arrows (worst arrows in game) while parsing. The test SHOULD give enough data to come up with a pretty acurate damage average. Actually, staticians would tell you an even larger database (10,000) would make it more accurate, but hey, after all it is a game.Then the test has to be copied on live before changes are implemented of course, in order to determine the differences between the two.1. Remove variables affecting results.2. Rigorously adhere to the same testing conditions between live and test.3. Establish a large enough database.Once your baseline data is compiled, then feel free to add bells and whistles, test different CA's, etc., but remember that the smaller the database and the more variables you add, WILL NOT give competent and reliable results across the board.On an aside, this could be accomplished by having 10 rangers try this test 100 times each and merging the data, but be aware of any different variables such as race bonuses.In a small database, such factors can have more of an effect in skewing the data, which is why you need such a large base, in order to determine more accurate results.</blockquote>I am in for this process. If we could agree on a standardized method amongst us it would make the compilation of Data easier and results more relevants for our feedback to the developpers.Also it would help prevent some of the bickering over details or tail chasing that we often see in the forums and which are in my opinion a waste of our brain and our time.Cheers.Corwin/Oasis/Cotw

Corwinus

04-05-2008, 10:37 AM

<cite>Tyberion@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>To test CA's just make every CA a macro that turns Auto Attack off, remove any spell haste/recovery items, and spec out of/remove all crit items.</blockquote>It makes sense Tyberion. I will take your idea into account in my next set of tests if we have a new update for GU44CheersCor

Tyberi

04-05-2008, 08:48 PM

You will also want to make sure you do not have any proc's on your equipment/weapons during the test, those can skew the comparison of DPS percentages and numbers by altering each test set.

JAFO74

04-05-2008, 09:45 PM

<cite>Harry@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite> </cite> You can test anything you want really, but in order to establish a baseline, two things must be done. You must eliminate any unknown variables, and you must establish a data set large enough to obtain both a minimum, maximum and average figure.5 sets isn't enough, to be honest. Yes, standing around to do enough sets to gain enough data is not exactly my idea of fun either, but doing testing the other way (by compilating CA's, buffs, casting order, etc.) will only be effective IF every person testing does every thing the same, hence the difference in the posted DPS rates so far. Not to mention all the other little factors, such as adornments, gear procs, haste bonuses, dps modifiers, etc. These are all designed to increase dps rate away from the baseline, hence my suggestion to find the base of the newly changed items, bows and arrows and autoattack damage.Example: A level 80 undressed unbuffed unspecced toon using a 72 MC bow (most easily obtained for testing purposes) uses 1000 autoattacks with ranger summoned arrows (worst arrows in game) while parsing. The test SHOULD give enough data to come up with a pretty acurate damage average. Actually, staticians would tell you an even larger database (10,000) would make it more accurate, but hey, after all it is a game.Then the test has to be copied on live before changes are implemented of course, in order to determine the differences between the two.1. Remove variables affecting results.2. Rigorously adhere to the same testing conditions between live and test.3. Establish a large enough database.Once your baseline data is compiled, then feel free to add bells and whistles, test different CA's, etc., but remember that the smaller the database and the more variables you add, WILL NOT give competent and reliable results across the board.On an aside, this could be accomplished by having 10 rangers try this test 100 times each and merging the data, but be aware of any different variables such as race bonuses.In a small database, such factors can have more of an effect in skewing the data, which is why you need such a large base, in order to determine more accurate results.</blockquote>I am just curious. What useful data is given by the AA only portion of this test. We already know that bow autoattack damage is taking close to a 20% hit, so why keep testing it on its own? It is a simple matter of looking at /weaponstat data on the 2 servers to determine what autoattack will do comparitively. The big concern as far as i can tell is that our buffed arrows combined with our nerfed bows are doing less AA damage when using tier appropriate arrows. Already on live we can run a 70/70 combo with RSB/dt arrows. Comparing apples to apples here isn't realy what is needed IMO, because what the changes allow is for ranger to swap from their apples(RSB/DT) to their oranges (fabled ET/fieldpoints.) Unfortunately this seems to be giving us a net dps loss in AA even with the new arrows. What we haven't tested was the fact that the new DA potions will be 8%(with conservation) and the ability to use the 3% DA adornment on our level 80 bow now, in addition to the STR ring proc. These are all tings that are going to provide a net benefit and are being ignored. Going from RSB to fabled et you gain 15% DA and 30% dps buff from str ring from live to test in addition to the buffed melee CA's and short recast ranged CA's.I am betting if you put on your best raid gear setup;potions/poisons etc on live with the RSB and compare it to your best on test you will parse higher overall on test. I have my ranger on test and he is an alchemist, i will put a bunch of those potions on the broker for dirt cheap later.What needs to be tested is what the combination of all the changes is going to add. I know people have different gear ca orders etc, but if person A consistently parses X amount on live and the consistently parses X amount on test, using the same gear, its not too far of a leap to get an approximant % shift that the changes provide.Iago

Badaxe Ba

04-06-2008, 03:57 PM

<cite>JAFO74 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Harry@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite> </cite> You can test anything you want really, but in order to establish a baseline, two things must be done. You must eliminate any unknown variables, and you must establish a data set large enough to obtain both a minimum, maximum and average figure.5 sets isn't enough, to be honest. Yes, standing around to do enough sets to gain enough data is not exactly my idea of fun either, but doing testing the other way (by compilating CA's, buffs, casting order, etc.) will only be effective IF every person testing does every thing the same, hence the difference in the posted DPS rates so far. Not to mention all the other little factors, such as adornments, gear procs, haste bonuses, dps modifiers, etc. These are all designed to increase dps rate away from the baseline, hence my suggestion to find the base of the newly changed items, bows and arrows and autoattack damage.Example: A level 80 undressed unbuffed unspecced toon using a 72 MC bow (most easily obtained for testing purposes) uses 1000 autoattacks with ranger summoned arrows (worst arrows in game) while parsing. The test SHOULD give enough data to come up with a pretty acurate damage average. Actually, staticians would tell you an even larger database (10,000) would make it more accurate, but hey, after all it is a game.Then the test has to be copied on live before changes are implemented of course, in order to determine the differences between the two.1. Remove variables affecting results.2. Rigorously adhere to the same testing conditions between live and test.3. Establish a large enough database.Once your baseline data is compiled, then feel free to add bells and whistles, test different CA's, etc., but remember that the smaller the database and the more variables you add, WILL NOT give competent and reliable results across the board.On an aside, this could be accomplished by having 10 rangers try this test 100 times each and merging the data, but be aware of any different variables such as race bonuses.In a small database, such factors can have more of an effect in skewing the data, which is why you need such a large base, in order to determine more accurate results.</blockquote>I am just curious. What useful data is given by the AA only portion of this test. We already know that bow autoattack damage is taking close to a 20% hit, so why keep testing it on its own? It is a simple matter of looking at /weaponstat data on the 2 servers to determine what autoattack will do comparitively. The big concern as far as i can tell is that our buffed arrows combined with our nerfed bows are doing less AA damage when using tier appropriate arrows. Already on live we can run a 70/70 combo with RSB/dt arrows. Comparing apples to apples here isn't realy what is needed IMO, because what the changes allow is for ranger to swap from their apples(RSB/DT) to their oranges (fabled ET/fieldpoints.) Unfortunately this seems to be giving us a net dps loss in AA even with the new arrows. What we haven't tested was the fact that the new DA potions will be 8%(with conservation) and the ability to use the 3% DA adornment on our level 80 bow now, in addition to the STR ring proc. These are all tings that are going to provide a net benefit and are being ignored. Going from RSB to fabled et you gain 15% DA and 30% dps buff from str ring from live to test in addition to the buffed melee CA's and short recast ranged CA's.I am betting if you put on your best raid gear setup;potions/poisons etc on live with the RSB and compare it to your best on test you will parse higher overall on test. I have my ranger on test and he is an alchemist, i will put a bunch of those potions on the broker for dirt cheap later.What needs to be tested is what the combination of all the changes is going to add. I know people have different gear ca orders etc, but if person A consistently parses X amount on live and the consistently parses X amount on test, using the same gear, its not too far of a leap to get an approximant % shift that the changes provide.Iago</blockquote>Iago, it is simple. Not every ranger has the rigid scale bow. Not every ranger has the fabled Eagle's Talon, much less the Mythic. Not every Ranger has access to deathtoll arrows, or emerald Hall Arrows. Not every ranger is at the peak of a raiding guild. And certainly, RSB isn't the only bow being affected!Yet every ranger will be affected by these changes. Everyone's topend DPS will be affected, but due to the complexity of the different variables available, testing topend will only create individual results.And comparing apples to apples is exactly what is needed. Are the apples I'm gonna have to buy in the future going to be as fresh, red and ripe, or are they going to be scrawny, shriveled, and tough to chew, much less swallow?Noone is saying that the topend cannot be tested, nor that it doesn't have a function, nor that we don't all want to know are we going to be better or worse at the end of the day.And while the occasional STR proc from the rings won't hurt us, it cannot really be depended on as an accurate modifier to our DPS, now can it? Yes, it will boost our DPS somewhat over a long term fight, but we weren't really hurting in those fights anyway.

JAFO74

04-06-2008, 08:52 PM

<cite>Harry@ </cite><blockquote><blockquote></blockquote>Iago, it is simple. Not every ranger has the rigid scale bow. Not every ranger has the fabled Eagle's Talon, much less the Mythic. Not every Ranger has access to deathtoll arrows, or emerald Hall Arrows. Not every ranger is at the peak of a raiding guild. And certainly, RSB isn't the only bow being affected!Yet every ranger will be affected by these changes. Everyone's topend DPS will be affected, but due to the complexity of the different variables available, testing topend will only create individual results.And comparing apples to apples is exactly what is needed. Are the apples I'm gonna have to buy in the future going to be as fresh, red and ripe, or are they going to be scrawny, shriveled, and tough to chew, much less swallow?Noone is saying that the topend cannot be tested, nor that it doesn't have a function, nor that we don't all want to know are we going to be better or worse at the end of the day.And while the occasional STR proc from the rings won't hurt us, it cannot really be depended on as an accurate modifier to our DPS, now can it? Yes, it will boost our DPS somewhat over a long term fight, but we weren't really hurting in those fights anyway.</blockquote>I understand this change affects everyone, however it only adversely affects those that are currently using the rsb/dt combo. Someone currently using a level 79 legendary bow or di'zok bow of flame will likely see an increase. Right now they are using a 77 or so bow with 67 arrows which do less damage than the 77bow/80 arrow combo on test which is the reverse of the people in the rsb/dt situation. Your average ranger is going to see a slight AA increase over their current combo, this is easy enough to see with /weaponstats as well. People with the mythical are going to be doing more dps as they will have level 80 arrows to use with their bow. REalistically the only people that are getting killed by this are the high end t7 fabled bow users. Level 72 bows are going to likely show a drop in autoattack damage as they currently are not being penalized as much since they are level 72 with 67 arrows. As the level of the bow goes up, the more benefit is going to be seen from the t8 arrows. I am not sure what level the break even point is going to be on that effect.I am not trying to be argumenative here, but I just want these people that are taking the time to test to be doing tests that will yield some worthwhile data. Using a level 72 bow as your baseline is going to be pointless if you want to test the AA changes for the average ranger, because they see little benefit from using t8 arrows and will likely skew your results to reflect a "truth" that isn't really. And your average ranger who has any idea what is out there won't be using those bows, they will be using either the di'zok bow, the TG bow, flimflam bow or one of the instance dropped ones. And those bows will be doing more damage(maybe not the TG bow as i think its low 70's)Right now a level 80 bow with 67 arrows does somewhere cose to 23% less damage than its rated for. With a 20% damage hit on test those bows will be doing 3% more than they currently do on live. All rangers using a high level bow will see this buff, although the lower the bow level is the more of that 3% gets eaten up by the damage table nerf.All I am saying is AA is easy to quatify and doesnt require you wasting time AA the wall 1000 times and respecing out of aa's etc. If on live /weaponstats with a certain bow/arrow combination shows 500-2000 and on test the same combination shows 400-1600, than its a 20% nerf, no testing needed...Edit: BTW that str ring is huge unless you are buffed past diminishing returns, it is a 45 second duration once it procs, which means that once it is up, unless your tank is braindead and pulling mobs really really slow, it will stay up most of the time.(talking heroic instances here). It also allows me to move some gear around because i can retire my marr cloak and dt bracelet and put a crit bracelet/haste cloak in their place.Iago

Bazak

04-07-2008, 07:33 AM

I recently ran several test on the arrow changes using the ET bow. No Buffs and no equipment, just bow and arrows. I shot hundreds of arrows of several types on both live and test servers. Using the wall in KJ I found some interesting results in comparing current live with Test server. One interesting find was the ET bow went from a flat 9 sec delay on live to an 8.6 delay in test. I reverified this many times and I encourage anyone to check it out for themselves.I wish there was a way to post the control charts for the test. However, I will summarize my results;Field Point arrows DPS shows a very slight increase in DPS (2.8%) over live. More misses but the bump in damage appears to made up the difference along with the slight speed increase on the bow helped. Bodkin Arrows displayed an overall 8.5% decrease in DPS. In other words it misses way too many times.Tenderwood Arrows results where so bad I wonder if they where forgotten during the adjustment phase. Results showed a 12.3% decrease on Test over Live.Broadhead Arrows I didn't bother with because we all know they suck and didn't waste my time on them.So in summary I would suggest to use the Field point arrows and you probably will not see a loss in DPS from a pure arrow stand point. With the CA adjustments you should see a slight DPS increase so our developer is correct in that regards. If Bodkins where to get about a 5% hit chance added instead of 0 then the DPS will be back up to Live results if not slightly better. Being that this is the job of the developer, I feel that he already knows this and may already be considering this. As far as the tenderwood arrows...not sure what happened there and I would highly encourage the developers to take a 2nd look at these. Good Hunting!

Entilor

04-07-2008, 10:02 AM

"One interesting find was the ET bow went from a flat 9 sec delay on live to an 8.6 delay in test. I reverified this many times and I encourage anyone to check it out for themselves."This is due to ACT counting double attacks as Auto attacks in the new version.Etes

Krakelkr

04-07-2008, 10:29 AM

<cite>JAFO74 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I understand this change affects everyone, however it only adversely affects those that are currently using the rsb/dt combo. Someone currently using a level 79 legendary bow or di'zok bow of flame will likely see an increase. snip</blockquote>No, you misunderstand. All bows get a decrease barring special treatment.Example, Bow of rapid trepidationTest668-1788Live677-1852

Bazak

04-07-2008, 03:33 PM

Yea That was my original thought that the 8.6 speed was due to double attack. However, that is not the case. Roughly ever 3rd attack showed a reduction in cast time. The attack times does not discriminate between single or double from the data I collected.

Entilor

04-07-2008, 05:48 PM

"Yea That was my original thought that the 8.6 speed was due to double attack. However, that is not the case. Roughly ever 3rd attack showed a reduction in cast time. The attack times does not discriminate between single or double from the data I collected." I had a few moments to look at the avg delay aspect of ACT and there is at least one bug - NAME START TIME DURATION DAMAGE HEALED EXT DPS HITS SWINGS DMG TAKEN Etesithx 4:34:08 PM 00:06 4816 0 802.67 5 5 0 training wall --:--:-- 00:00 0 0 0.00 0 0 4816 TYPE DAMAGE EXT DPS AVERAGE MIN HIT MAX HIT RESIST HITS CRITHITS HIT/FAILED MISSES SWINGS TO HIT % AVG DLY All 2991 498.50 1495.50 1239 1752 All 2 0 0 0 2 100.00 3.00 pierce 2991 498.50 1495.50 1239 1752 piercing 2 0 0 0 2 100.00 3.00 TIME ATTACKER ATTACK TYPE DAMAGE TYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL 4:34:14 PM Etesithx pierce piercing training wall 1239 False None 4:34:08 PM Etesithx pierce piercing training wall 1752 False NoneTYPE DAMAGE EXT DPS AVERAGE MIN HIT MAX HIT RESIST HITS CRITHITS HIT/FAILED MISSES SWINGS TO HIT % AVG DLY All 1825 304.17 608.33 367 821 All 3 1 0 0 3 100.00 3.00 Quick Shot 1458 243.00 729.00 637 821 piercing 2 1 0 0 2 100.00 3.00 Talon Strike 367 61.17 367.00 367 367 slashing 1 0 0 0 1 100.00 0.00 TIME ATTACKER ATTACK TYPE DAMAGE TYPE VICTIM DAMAGE CRITICAL SPECIAL 4:34:14 PM Etesithx Quick Shot piercing training wall 637 False None 4:34:08 PM Etesithx Quick Shot piercing training wall 821 True None Notice the Detail vs the Average Detail - 6 secsAvg - 3 secsThis seems to be happening on the first 2 attacks then is averaged into the following attacks."Roughly ever 3rd attack showed a reduction in cast time."Sounds like a rounding error, perhaps I will get some time to look at it.Not to say that there are not other things happening ... in ACT or on the Test ServerEnt aka Etesith

JAFO74

04-07-2008, 07:28 PM

<cite>Krakelkrak wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>JAFO74 wrote:</cite><blockquote>I understand this change affects everyone, however it only adversely affects those that are currently using the rsb/dt combo. Someone currently using a level 79 legendary bow or di'zok bow of flame will likely see an increase. snip</blockquote>No, you misunderstand. All bows get a decrease barring special treatment.Example, Bow of rapid trepidationTest668-1788Live677-1852</blockquote>Ah, see you are right there, it is not a matter of my misunderstanding though, i had forgotten that they had nerfed the bows to the point that even with new arrows they were doing less damag on test than live, then went back and slightly buffed just the fabled ET to put it slightly above its current damage on live, instead of making a global change to bow damage to get all bows to where they were doing at least a little more damage. My mistake. But as you can see it is easy enough to note with those numbers that that bow on test will do less autoattack dps than on live, no need to respec, strip gear shoot 1000 arrows at a wall to prove it.Iago