Do the math

[motogp]

Add up all the AGI and + to Defense and + to parry on the new VP tank sets. Wonder what class comes out on top with the most AGI and parry-defense? You are correct, the class all the DEVs play won yet again. Grats to all you Guards, you win the eq2 MT position one more time.  Have a nice day.  Edit: Just to mention the 60 reduction on reinfrorcment. When is it enough?

[Demoley]

why dont you just play a guard, you seem to be all over that gravy train.....good paladins adjust we always have, the ones that cant hack it just reroll.have a nice day <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Meirril]

<p>This really isn't the place to discuss proposed changes on TEST. I'd be the developers who asked for feedback on TEST probably won't find this post.</p><p>Especially with a title that says nothing about TEST, VP, LU44, or ROK Fabled Armor Sets. </p><p>If your trying to get this changed, I'd suggest reposting in the appropriate forum and giving the post a better title. If your just trying to get us to be angry...why?</p>

[motogp]

"why dont you just play a guard, you seem to be all over that gravy train....."  I do raid with a 80 guard and 80 paladin. I see how much over powered Guards are first hand and it pisses me off. dragoon reflexes says they cant use CA while under the effect for 12 second. Well, they can cast CA's for the las 5 seconds its up. Thats 100% parry and they can still attack.  Look at DA? what a joke.  If you played a lvl 80 Guard in VP and a 80 pally you would be just as [Removed for Content] as i am.  Make a guard and read the aa line-check all there buffs. All im saying is make an option to have more than 1 MT in this game. IMO the real reason soe wont make paladins as good as guardians is, They will risk [Removed for Content] off the guards and soe just cant have that. FFS fix DA at the very least.  Have a very nice day.

[Demoley]

go tank trakanon then come talk to me, ive seen it done as a guard, ive done it as a paladin, ive seen a zerker do it....guards have their tricks we dont, we have to rely on our healers not to suck, its that simple. you meet any good gaurd they'd kill to have some of aggro tools just as we'd like to have some their oh craps...but you know what, that is what tehy are designed for, we are designed to maximize hate gain.

[Faelgalad]

<p>Not everyone here is in a Raidguild cable of Trakanon, not everyone is a Raider. </p><p>So maybe... </p><p>just a thought....</p><p>That Paladins have quiet some problems beyond the nice heaven some living in. </p><p>But you don't know the problems of those from us who don't have ideal groups, raid...</p><p>In this situation, the Guards simply dominate us. </p><p>This class don't belong to the highend superb players only. There are problems for the rest of us, and these have to be fixed. I've played the account of our Raid Guard for some time over Christmas (beeing a cook, he was to busy with christmas buisness). My guild attests me, I'am a good Paladin and one of the better ones on our server. I was shocked how easy it is for the guards. Don't reroll, start a Guard and see the difference is what I say. </p>

[Demoley]

<cite>Faelgalad wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Not everyone here is in a Raidguild cable of Trakanon, not everyone is a Raider. </p><p>So maybe... </p><p>just a thought....</p><p>That Paladins have quiet some problems beyond the nice heaven some living in. </p><p>But you don't know the problems of those from us who don't have ideal groups, raid...</p><p>In this situation, the Guards simply dominate us. </p><p>This class don't belong to the highend superb players only. There are problems for the rest of us, and these have to be fixed. I've played the account of our Raid Guard for some time over Christmas (beeing a cook, he was to busy with christmas buisness). My guild attests me, I'am a good Paladin and one of the better ones on our server. I was shocked how easy it is for the guards. Don't reroll, start a Guard and see the difference is what I say. </p></blockquote>lol its easy cause they have all the oh crap im gonna die buttons....we dont, like i said we have the tools to control aggro in ways guards could never dream of. thats what we do best...

[Turtle]

<p>Seems like the OP has a valid point, but we do have a "oh crap I'm going to die" button...Lay on Hands line would classify I think, but I'm only an lvl 23 Pally so what do I know...</p>

[Faelgalad]

<p>I don't dispute that our Aggro Tools are great. </p><p>With faster leveling, there are to much healers that don't know their job. A Guard is not so much affected with this, than a Paladin. </p><p>Let's simplify:</p><p>Aggro Tool: Paladin</p><p>Damage (T8 ): Guardian</p><p>Mitigation: Guardian</p><p>Avoidance, casual: Guardian</p><p>Avoicance, full Raid gear: Paladin</p><p>With those disadvantages, Paladins have Problems. Sure, some stay, some become great in overcomming the shortcummings. No questions. </p><p>But is it wise? Is it, that we could say, equal footing between Guards and Paladins?</p><p>We are threefold Hybids. </p><p>- Strenght, Stamina, Dexterity, Melee Crit, Haste, DA, DPS for Tanking</p><p>- Wisdom, Heal Crit for Healing</p><p>- Intelligence, Spell Crit, Fast Cast for our couple of Spells. </p><p>We have our foot in to many doors, or contrary, SOE has not implemented Items that reflect this. If a Guard has +2 Melee Crit on an Item, we would need +2 Melee Crit and +2 Spell Crit. If he has +4 fast attack, we would need +4 fastcast in addition. </p><p>But Itemisation doesn't reflect this. A Paladin has to be geared up quite more heavy, to be on equal footing with an worse equipped Guardian. And even more miserable, SOE increases this, with the itemisation.  </p><p>All humans are born with equal right. All tanks are lacking behind the primus inter paris. </p><p>Sorry, English is not my native language. </p>

[Caetrel]

<p>Everybody has a point here.  Don't write off Vir he has been fighting the fight for a long time and some of these arguments do get old quick.</p><p> IMO it's not about us vs. guards.  Do we need some tuning?  Yah prolly, but we can't procede from that pally vs. guard mentality to effect any changes.  A good paladin will kick [Removed for Content], end of story.  </p><p> The balance problem with our class has always been that if they make us as effective as guards in straight up durability, then we would outclass Guards entirely because of our aggro, heals etc...that is the number one reason we often get hosed on gear effects and lackluster AA abilities like DA.</p><p>The thing that loot designers need to consider is that paladins looking at gear prefer health and avoidance over dps effects, and way over healing effects.  This is true of every single one of us regardless of raid/ group/ whatever.  The common ground is we all tank for we'd roll scouts, so good gear should be suited for tanking first.   </p><p>The VP set could use more avoidance effects IMO. </p>

[Tames]

<p>Yup avoidance/mit is vital but you also need DPS to up your agro in less than perfect situations and when not in defensive gear. The point that we need + melle and + cast bonuses on our gear is a very good one.</p><p>They do need to fix DA and DF though, why should we be the only Tank class where our "Oh Sh*t" stuff doesnt work? If Guardians "Oh Sh*t" stuff didnt work the sky would fall down! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/2786c5c8e1a8be796fb2f726cca5a0fe.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[NANEEJE]

<p>The original idea of having 24 classes was to have 24 different classes providing each group in a raid with the proper buffs, mit, heals, wards, anything to equal out the entire raid force. </p><p>Some buffs are group only, and some are raid. /  some heals can reach raid, others single targets.</p><p>But what i don't get is the overbearing need to tank, and we keep getting heal bonuses. We tank great, I love tanking maidens, my groups are very happy with a Paladin tank, especially the healers , simple call out for help from a healer, and we stay alive. best way to keep a group together.  But what good are the heal bonuses on crap heals. </p><p>I'm sorry, but a bose stereo system blasting perfect sound in a 1972 Pinto, just doesn't change the fact that its a pinto. </p><p>Give us an upgrade to Divine Aura, make the Wisdom line something to actually enjoy using , and actually benefits the Paladins group, and please, if your going to give us healing bonuses, can we please have some heals worth bonusing...</p>

[hawsecav19d]

<p>Gaurdians are a good class for the job they are made to do tank, thats it thats all they are asked to a group to do 95% of the time. My guilds gaurd has a pally as alt as well but he raids with his gaurdian as our MT but fact is he trusts me to grab and hold agro anytime he dies or his healers die, he knows I can take agro from him anytime I want in a raid and keep it from him all cept for when he uses reinforcment. I do 4-600 less dps than him but my amends target does 2.5-3k more than the gaurd. With Holyground and amends if you cant take agro and hold it anytime you want stop playing or go back to the drawing board on how you play. At 35k raid dps in Prot Realm is about all our gaurd can hold before agro starts bouncing all over the place I dont have that problem . I dont want to play a gaurd they got some nice abilities but they cant carry my jock for 90% of fights it that last 10% of fights that makes a gaurd the better choice cause of the oh crap abilities.Do you really think you need to take that away from them so that thier class becomes useless? Do your job be the Off Tank or Main Assist for your guild and be ready to step up when your gaurdian falters if you save the wipe and beat the mob you might get to tank it on your own the next time. You have to put in the yards dont expect sony to bail you out.</p>

[Brizlor]

<p>lol. so according to you a Pally should be a equivalent MT then a guard. Question, if that happen, why the hell would you want a Guard over a pally ? Oh ya, I guess Guard can be consider dps and give his leet tank buff to the scout he'll be with *ROAR*. Guard are meant to be MT, because a dev play one ? no, thats all they do. How often you group with a Guard that isnt tanking ? yup, thats pretty much what they are for...</p><p>In my opinion Paladin are the best utility fighter and thats what they are meant to be. We can help offtanking mob whenever the MT (guard ! lol) dies, saves the squishis via aggro control or rez them when we fail to save them or just help healing.</p><p>According to people like you, every class is broken. Its a mmorpg, of course classes got flaws, some need adjustment more then others but jeez just play with what they give you and make the most of it.</p>

[motogp]

<cite>Brizlor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>lol. so according to you a Pally should be a equivalent MT then a guard. Question, if that happen, why the hell would you want a Guard over a pally ? Oh ya, I guess Guard can be consider dps and give his leet tank buff to the scout he'll be with *ROAR*. Guard are meant to be MT, because a dev play one ? no, thats all they do. How often you group with a Guard that isnt tanking ? yup, thats pretty much what they are for...</p><p>In my opinion Paladin are the best utility fighter and thats what they are meant to be. We can help offtanking mob whenever the MT (guard ! lol) dies, saves the squishis via aggro control or rez them when we fail to save them or just help healing.</p><p>According to people like you, every class is broken. Its a mmorpg, of course classes got flaws, some need adjustment more then others but jeez just play with what they give you and make the most of it.</p></blockquote>Middle English, from Anglo-French <i>ydiote,</i> from Latin <i>idiota</i> ignorant person, from Greek <i>idiōtēs</i> one in a private station, layman, ignorant person, A Brizlor