Im glad Rangers have been heard, but how about Coercers?

[Lleinen]

<p>Seeing as we've been a bit vocal for over a year now and just keep getting ignored</p><p><3</p>

[Alienor]

Why not wait for Rothgar leveling his coercer on test to feel the pain himself?

[Want]

careful what your asking for, read the ranger forums and eq2flames.Rangers got nurfed HARD. 40% less procs, and a massive dps nurf to all bows

[Sunlei]

<cite>Lleinen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Seeing as we've been a bit vocal for over a year now and just keep getting ignored</p><p><3</p></blockquote><p>   Coercers will never be like they were the first year of the game nor will rangers and a lot of other classes. Consider yourself lucky you were able to 'ride the wave' and be max level before the classes were nurfed down.</p><p>Sure they added the right level of arrows recently, however the bows were made worse and the procs removed AGAIN.</p><p>Guess I'm the only one who misses that first year..I really liked the way the procs were on all my classes. It was fun to me and I thought it was awesome when say my damage shield had a chance to proc.</p><p>Dunno about others but the changes make me not want to make alts..and there sure are less people starting.</p><p>Shame it feels (to me IMO only) just llike eq1 to me..bunch of highend raiders lording over a shrinking newbie player base..</p>

[Freliant]

<p>Don't ask for a change to your class until you have seen good results from changes being made to other classes.</p><p>Ranger super short summary:</p><p>Rangers: Our bows are doing less damage with arrows than without, please fix.</p><p>Developer: Ok, I will fix. (Makes arrows do the same damage that the bow says it should do... then nerfs the bows so they do the same damage as before the change)</p><p>Rangers: hey... what the... now my bows do less damage</p><p>Developer: but the arrows make it do its full damage now... even if it is lower.</p><p>Rangers: This is not what we asked for, please give us proper dps, to be on par with our counterparts, the assassins.</p><p>Developer: Ok (Allows player procs to strike on ranged attacks... then reduces the amount of times a bow can proc)</p><p>Rangers: Ok... seriously, what are you on man? You just cut our proc rate by 48%... and you still haven't increased the damage of the bow back to normal.</p><p>Developer: Yeah, I reduced the proc, but now you can proc off the temporary buffs of 2 other classes. If you ever get to group with those 2 specific classes, your dps will be back to normal. O, and I don't think I want to increase the dps of your bows...</p><p>Rangers: So... you reduced our procs, reduced our damage from bows... and this is supposed to make us better? Just don't fix us anymore, bring things back to the way they were before.</p><p>Developer: Sure thing, first, let me enable procs again... but I have to make you not proc off those other buffs. But I like the bows not doing as much damage as before, I think I will keep that.</p><p>That is where the conversation is at at the arrow changes post. Will the bows ever be brought back up to how they were? Will rangers ever get to see dps on par with assassins. For the only class that has to pay for their dps, Rangers are certainly getting a big shaft this coming update. Hopefully they don't just quit. So I ask you again, are you sure you want to have your class "fixed"? </p>

[Zin`Car]

Ichorstrand and Bazkul the Soulseeker ftw!

[Kenban]

<cite>Lleinen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Seeing as we've been a bit vocal for over a year now and just keep getting ignored</p><p><3</p></blockquote>As a ranger who has seen the changes on test.  Trust me you would prefer to be ignored.

[Transen]

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote>So I ask you again, are you sure you want to have your class "fixed"? </blockquote>Always remember to spade or neuter your coercers/rangers/ect... <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/908627bbe5e9f6a080977db8c365caff.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Ranja]

<cite>Luinne@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ichorstrand and Bazkul the Soulseeker ftw!</blockquote>Nope sorry Aerlick closed that loohole too. So now we have to buy arrows to do less DPS than b4.Oh joy!

[Zin`Car]

<cite>Ranja wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Luinne@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ichorstrand and Bazkul the Soulseeker ftw!</blockquote>Nope sorry Aerlick closed that loohole too. So now we have to buy arrows to do less DPS than b4.Oh joy!</blockquote><p>was looking at it from the standpoint of "a free stack of arrows > buying arrows" every time.  But as an assassin, my arrow usage is indeed a lot more limited then a ranger's.  Mostly reserved for soloing or those few raids where i am either forced to stay ranged or get knocked back and need a couple shots  to fire off to keep my dps up as i run back into range.</p><p>BTW, i am unaware of what actually changed with the arrows overall, including summoned ones like the DT bow arrows.  Can you give a "cliff notes" version (beyond the ego-bruised "We gotz skruu'd" explaination) or a link to the thread discussing it?</p><p>Thank you</p>

[Gnobrin]

<p>This is a coercer only issue folks, so it's being moved to the coercer forums (where there's a few REALLY good posts already, that have been forwarded to the development staff).</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=409617" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Try here,</a> since it's what I've been forwarding along...</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p>

[Grimlux]

<p>Its pretty obvious that Coercers will be next on the revision list. My only concern is that rangers are not happy with their changes. </p><p>On a good note though, Ive seen ranger DPS in its current state and its not terrible no matter what any ranger says. Of course, its nothing like their counterpart DPS which is what all the QQing is about. It would be scary if they tweaked coercer around to seem like were getting buffed, when really were only getting nerfed like the current state of rangers on test. I pretty much stick to live servers, but you can bet that as soon as Coercer changes go to test I will be right there. </p>

[Zerion]

Seriously... Do you REALLY want to get 'fixed' like the rangers are getting fixed?Lowering "to hit" bonuses on arrowsLowering damage on bowsNerfing T7 bows just so T8 bows finally do more damage then the T7 bows?So.. you're asking to be nerfed? 

[Braumiller]

I sincerely hope that Aeralik does not get assigned the 'review and fix Coercers' Dev ticket.

[Gnobrin]

<p>C'mon folks, the matter's on test now and being tweaked as I speak.  There's a reason it's pushed to test, and that's to test.  If you want to take part in that process, please log into that server, test the content and then use the means ingame to voice your opinion.  </p><p>Please, just stay on topic so this thread doesn't need "the lock".</p><p>~Gnobrin.</p>

[Jeepned2]

<cite>Zerion wrote:</cite><blockquote>Seriously... Do you REALLY want to get 'fixed' like the rangers are getting fixed?Lowering "to hit" bonuses on arrowsLowering damage on bowsNerfing T7 bows just so T8 bows finally do more damage then the T7 bows?So.. you're asking to be nerfed?  </blockquote>Ok...I know that we coercers for the most part are a whiny lot. But come on Rangers, have some dignity, whine in your own class chat, you are interfering with our whining.

[Gnobrin]

<p>The unusual thing though, is that the coercers I've spoken to are pretty happy.  There's a few here within the forums that are not (some, REALLY unhappy) happy, but the folks I've even spoken to ingame are pleased with the process.  I'll still forward the issues to the development team for further review though, in case there's a happy medium that can be reached.</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p>

[Aule]

<p>The ones that are unhappy are the ones raiding T8, particularly the later stages of it.  I'm hoping the process works out and all, but I'm not exactly holding my breath for it either.</p>

[Rijacki]

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The unusual thing though, is that the coercers I've spoken to are pretty happy.  There's a few here within the forums that are not (some, REALLY unhappy) happy, but the folks I've even spoken to ingame are pleased with the process.  I'll still forward the issues to the development team for further review though, in case there's a happy medium that can be reached.</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p></blockquote>What level are the coercers who are happy?  I honestly love the -concept- of coercer and have even rolled a coercer on a different sever recently because I like the class as a whole up until.... Kunark and raiding in Kunark.  Up until raiding, a coercer does very well solo even if they're not the first choice for groups (illusionists will get an invite over a coercer, at any level, but in the lower levels there are fewer of both so it's not as noticable).Even before the reduction in damage to the majority of Kunark charmed pets, none came close to the damage of some of the pets in Bonemire, T7 KoS.  After the change to damage, the T7 pets do more than double the Kunark pets.  That alone seems a bit.. umm.. backward. It makes 70+ less fun than all 70 level before.Raiding, though, is where the real divide comes.  That's when the coercer's limitations really grow.I still like playing my coercer and I'll put her aside for an alt when she's no longer wanted on raids.. which I know is coming.. especially if no positive changes come in the near future.

[Wrapye]

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The unusual thing though, is that the coercers I've spoken to are pretty happy.  There's a few here within the forums that are not (some, REALLY unhappy) happy, but the folks I've even spoken to ingame are pleased with the process.  I'll still forward the issues to the development team for further review though, in case there's a happy medium that can be reached.</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p></blockquote>So that would be why, when the developers asked which classes they should play on test, the overwhelming leader in votes was <b>coercer</b> - the class with the smallest population.  Then the poll was cleared and continued, and again <b>coercer</b> is leading in the votes.  More than ranger.  More than shadowknight.  More that berserker.  That doesn't sound like a 'few' to me.Soloing and group play, there aren't that many issues, I will admit.  But raiding is a significant portion of the content in the game, and the spells and tools that coercers develop while solo and even in groups have little bearing on what they are able to do in raids.  What they have in the past been able to do has been largely supplanted by items (power regeneration and  hate management) or given over to the illusionist (buffing melee classes).  Many top end raiding guilds don't even have a coercer anymore.  For a class that is supposed to be about utility, that should be inconceivable.  There should be some way to enhance coercer utility in raids without impacting solo or group play, given how disparate the play style for the class is.You can forward our concerns to the development team, but there is nothing to say that they will be read, let alone heeded.edit:  typos

[Jeepned2]

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The unusual thing though, is that the coercers I've spoken to are pretty happy.  <span style="font-size: medium;color: #cc0000;">There's a few here within the forums that are not (some, REALLY unhappy) happy</span>, but the folks I've even spoken to ingame are pleased with the process.  I'll still forward the issues to the development team for further review though, in case there's a happy medium that can be reached.</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p></blockquote>That would discribe me pretty much, yep!

[Braumiller]

The concept of the Coercer is a very good one, the current implementation is not so good and full of contradictions.We are a 'mitigating' class, in that we prevent the mob from doing damage (mezzes, stuns, stifles, dazes, roots etc...), and therefore have less dps options than other classes.  A big chunk of our damage dealing spells require the mob to do damage to our group, yet we are usually preventing the mob from doing damage (or shaman wards are).What could be our main damage spell, charm, is not viable in groups / raids due to its heavy handed Conc cost (especially compared to our Illusionist counterparts <b>permanent </b>pet cost, or lack thereof)A lot of our spells also drain mobs power, or cause damage based on a mobs power usage.  Again a nice concept, except that mobs basically use no power now since LU XX (do not recall off hand which update it was that made this change), basically nullifying the use of these spell lines.There are also many more issues I could list, but they are very well documented on this board, especially <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=409617" target="_blank">here</a>These are just some of the reasons that the Coercer is the least played class in the game, and based on recent red name statements, probably will be for the foreseeable future.Gnorbin, have you heard of the 'monkey in a tree' analogy to work? (Bosses looking down see smiling faces, workers looking up see nothing but monkey's [Removed for Content])I tend to feel this is the case here too, and you look down and see a 'biased' view of the player base due to the player base seeing / talking to a red name.(Granted, we probably have the reverse biased view - tinged with the feeling of complete abandonment)<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The unusual thing though, is that the coercers I've spoken to are pretty happy.  There's a few here within the forums that are not (some, REALLY unhappy) happy, but the folks I've even spoken to ingame are pleased with the process.  I'll still forward the issues to the development team for further review though, in case there's a happy medium that can be reached.</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p></blockquote>(edited for grammar)

[Depheni]

While I am not a hardcore raider, I do raid as often as I can with my guild. Basically my problems with the class are that I also feel that RoK forced me (partially atleast) into obscurity, other classes became far more efficient in many things we used to do better. The specifics have been talked over and over forever so no point in going into that again.Also for the love of god - possession and puppetmaster - simply insulting.But - if fixing the problems with the class means reinventing or changing it drastically enough as to alter its existing status, abilities and can dos ... NO THANKS - and I really hope that doesnt happen.With all its shortcomings its still a great class.

[RingleToo]

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The unusual thing though, is that the coercers I've spoken to are pretty happy.  There's a few here within the forums that are not (some, REALLY unhappy) happy, but the folks I've even spoken to ingame are pleased with the process.  I'll still forward the issues to the development team for further review though, in case there's a happy medium that can be reached.</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p></blockquote>I have to wonder, too, about this. I'm not "happy" with my coercer. And, literally, everyone in my guild who ever had a coercer either deleted it or betrayed to an illusionist. Yes, mezzer is a fun class which is not the same thing as being happy with it.

[Cawti]

I find it hard to believe that most coercers (at or near the level cap) are happy.At low levels, the class is challenging, but fun.  It's neat to go into a zone, and think, "hey who will I charm here?"  Or to pull way too many mobs with social aggro and yet still survive because of mez.  Lower level coercers probably notice some of the problems with the class, (particularly the irony of having your primary role in a group be to stop the mobs from attacking, while having your primary forms of damage come only when the mob attacks.)  However the fun factor of the other things makes it worth it.At high levels this balance BREAKS DOWN.  Particularly in raids.  After level 58, we don't get <b>any</b> new useful spells.  After picking up the AGI and INT AA lines in the enchanter tree, and the 5 points in charm (if you solo), AA's are underwhelming compared to what other classes get.So, basically the class has stagnated in utility for <b>3 expansions</b> while other classes have kept growing and getting stronger.Look at who is posting on these threads.  A huge percentage have the "Loremaster" title.  Your longest term players are the ones who are complaining the most.  To me, that hints that the folks who are "happy" probably won't be for long, since the people who know what they are talking about are unhappy.Why are people so "suddenly" unhappy?1.  <b>The epic weapon is now the 4th time in a row where we could have been given a boost, and were denied one</b>, while we saw our sister class and the other utility classes make out like bandits.2.  <b>Initial forays into RoK gave us reason to hope.</b>  Mobs had higher hit rates, so our reactives were proccing more.  Charmed pets nuked hard enough to hold aggro over our reactives proccing.  Many mobs made decent enough pets that we didn't need to cross zones to find one before getting started.3.  <b>Itemization in RoK is messed up, and coercers are hurt worse than any other class by it.</b>  Handing out uncontesed avoidance to tanks like candy ruins our DPS.  Items that proc wards increase the time that our reactives won't proc and ruins our DPS.  Tons of +heal and +heal crit gear make the wards bigger and since they block reactives, our DPS is still worse.  <b>Items that proc power are exceedingly common</b> and since power management is one of our primary roles in raids we are slowly (or quickly) being rendered irrelevant.Coercers have historically been taken on raids primarily for 3 reasons:1. Hate management:  Enraging Demeanor and Harmonious Link primarily.  However E.D. only works if we can transfer hate, and since our DPS is getting worse and worse as our raidmates get better, we have a hard time filling this role.  Even harder than it was before.2.  Power management:  This has been rendered almost trivial by itemization.  No pressing need for what the coercers have to offer here.3.  Amnesia:  Resist rates on spells plus a huge lack of +Ordination gear/buffs makes this unreliable.  Besides, I don't think a sane raid leader would bring a coercer along <b>just </b>for mem wipes.

[Nere]

I don't know how you can manage a community when you are so obviously completely out of touch with it.

[Xanaron]

<cite>Nere wrote:</cite><blockquote>I don't know how you can manage a community when you are so obviously completely out of touch with it.</blockquote>QFE

[Jeepned2]

<cite>CawtiDawnflower wrote:</cite><blockquote>I find it hard to believe that most coercers (at or near the level cap) are happy.At low levels, the class is challenging, but fun.  It's neat to go into a zone, and think, "hey who will I charm here?"  Or to pull way too many mobs with social aggro and yet still survive because of mez.  Lower level coercers probably notice some of the problems with the class, (particularly the irony of having your primary role in a group be to stop the mobs from attacking, while having your primary forms of damage come only when the mob attacks.)  However the fun factor of the other things makes it worth it.At high levels this balance BREAKS DOWN.  Particularly in raids.  After level 58, we don't get <b>any</b> new useful spells.  After picking up the AGI and INT AA lines in the enchanter tree, and the 5 points in charm (if you solo), AA's are underwhelming compared to what other classes get.</blockquote><p>That is why I was very disappointed to hear that the dev's where going to play thier test toons starting at level 1. It's not until you start raiding T6 and above content that you really see the disfunction of our class. And by T8 it has shifted from disfunction to functionless. Sure going into FG and mezzing a caster is a blast. Try finding a caster in Protector's Realm. I won't even bother with the pets and raid zone discussion. Oh.....ok..... I will.... let's see, Conjurors get a pet in raid zones, Necros do and wow look at that, so do Illusionist and I don't want to leave out the Mystics with thier pull pet. Someone remind me why we have charm. (and for non-Coercers, NO, charm is not a self buff). Conjurors and Necros will argue that thier pets are 40-70 percent of thier DPS, so they can't give up thier pets. Well, what do you think our charmed pets are for us? Wonder what the Conjuror and Necro forums would look like if thier pets had thier dps reduced by 50% in all RoK zones and then they were told that they couldn't cast them in raid zones? Wonder how many of them would quit the game? Unfortunately for them, if that happened they can't betray to an illusionist also. How about the Wizards if we told them that thier dps was going to be slashed by 50% in all RoK zones and that in raid zones they couldn't cast Fission, Surge of Ro, and Ice Spears? I guess my point is, why are the Coercers the only class that had thier primary dps abilities destroyed or rendered useless?</p><p>Oh well, that's the way it's going to be I guess.  By the way, what dps tier where we suppose to be in, I don't remember any notice that said we where getting moved to tier 5. Guess that's just the way it worked out. A couple more updates like the last few and they will have to invent tier 6 just for us. Then we will be truely unique.</p>

[cxp1]

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The unusual thing though, is that the coercers I've spoken to are pretty happy.  There's a few here within the forums that are not (some, REALLY unhappy) happy, but the folks I've even spoken to ingame are pleased with the process.  I'll still forward the issues to the development team for further review though, in case there's a happy medium that can be reached.</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p></blockquote><p>Well Gnobrin, we raiding Coercers are virtually all unhappy!  I've owned a large software company, and I must say, that if I was as out of touch with my customers as you are with your players... Well, we wouldn't have had many customers.  Many of us hardcore raiders, don't read or post on the forums often.  We prefer to do what we can with our broken class and hope for a fix.  But it is simply salt on the wounds to say we are happy in general.  I've yet to meet ONE Coecer who knew anything about his class that was happy in RoK.  I chat with the top Coercers across servers and you are wrong if you think raiding Coercers are happy.</p><p> Consider these facts:</p><p> We are the smallest population?  And on a percentage of population basis we have by far the most betrayals...</p><p> We have several spell lines that are completly broken and do nothing...Cataclysmic Mind used to do huge damage before LU13 on some mobs and now it does almost nothing.  LU13 was a long time ago and obviously the devs don't care about this problem.</p><p>The more effective our tank is on mitigating damage the worst our dps.  Well this is really logical.. So the progression for Coercers is .. as your tanks get better your ability to DPS gets worse?  How exciting.  </p><p>We have the least powerful mythical or at least second to last (Fury),  certainly the ugliest mythical.</p><p>Now debuffs and spells get resisted more since this was easier than fixing melee hit rates.  I'm not that sympathetic about melee hit rates once you take into account how fast you can cast CAs.  Well in VP it is not unusual to get resisted 5-10 times in a row.  Our debuffs do not land as easily.  THANKS!  I realize that this was a nerf to all mages, but Coercers have it hard as it is.</p><p> I can only speculate that devs think the charm ability is overpowered, and thus don't want to make any changes to our dps spells in combination with charm.  Well here is a simple solution... Double our dps on spells and make them work (i.e. on attempts not actual hits for Hostage) and when we have charmed a mob reduce the dps by half.  See? Simple change.</p><p>Frankly, the developer who is in charge of balancing the classes is doing a horrible job here.  What do we have to do get SOE's attention?  Nothing is working.... Ok you are ignoring us. We understand.  Just don't come here and say we are happy. </p><p> Vixn,</p><p>80 Coercer Befallen</p>

[Grimlux]

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The unusual thing though, is that the coercers I've spoken to are pretty happy.  There's a few here within the forums that are not (some, REALLY unhappy) happy, but the folks I've even spoken to ingame are pleased with the process.  I'll still forward the issues to the development team for further review though, in case there's a happy medium that can be reached.</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p></blockquote>Im not even a raiding coercer and there are huge issues! This seems to me like he just said. "I have a friend who said you guys are fine".  Gnobrin, do you not think its broken that 1/2 our spells keep the mob from hitting us, and the other 1/2 do damage if they hit us?

[Lleinen]

<span style="font-size: large;">To all the rangers...</span> that responded to my post :Wait until its live before you whine and cry.  Yes your broken now and I agree you need a fix but, I have to agree, be patient until it goes LIVE. Also, there isnt much more they can do to us to make us craptastic.  Rangers are still doing fine on the DPS parse, although not tier 1 and I think that has some of you all "behind" hurt, which...sucks to an extent...but again, your getting looked at and tuned.Think about us for a sec, our mythical is the worst of them all (MAYBE tie with zerker) when you compare effects, and Aeralik actually laughed at our level 80 spell because of how crappy it was (sidenote : he made the spell, and I heard this from somewhere so it may or may not be true just to cover my bases, but I would be suprised, have you SEEN our level 80 spell???)<span style="font-size: large;">Gnorbin, when you talk...</span> to non-raiders of course you will see that most people are happy, because I am actually SEMI happy with my grouping abilities (little more utility/dps would be nice but wutever, maybe a lower conc charm, etc).  The problem arises in raiding, those of us that have been playing for years and just keep getting knocked down the totem poll...heck, im guild leader and im barly holding onto my role in MT group.We specialize in power regen, which you stabbed thru the heart with RoK/EoF with all the power proc'ing items.  I have the dirge in my group stop playing mana regen and put up STR/AGI buff, just because she can.  So now coercers are stuck.Illusionists have us passed up in both power regen (see : Illus mythical, and heck, see Mystic one too, and Warden...gimmie a break), DPS, and utility.  We dont compare to our counterpart in anyway.MAKE OUR REACTIVES GO OFF ON ATTEMPTSCHANGE POWER DRAINS TO DOTSCHANGE CATACLYSMIC MIND TO A NUKEGIVE US USEFULL UTILITY (GET RID OF POSSESSION AND PUPPETMASTER TO FILL THE "UTILITY" JOB)Some Ideas ^^

[Alfgand]

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The unusual thing though, is that the coercers I've spoken to are pretty happy.  There's a few here within the forums that are not (some, REALLY unhappy) happy, but the folks I've even spoken to ingame are pleased with the process.  I'll still forward the issues to the development team for further review though, in case there's a happy medium that can be reached.</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p></blockquote><p>Well as they say ignorance is bliss. Those Coercers who do not see there are serious problems with the class are, well, to put it politely are not paying attention. </p><p>Coercers who solo can be very happy folks. I am quite happy and always was happy soloing. My DPS was ok, I could do quests that others had problems with.</p><p>Grouping mostly is not too bad but our DPS issues starts to raise its head here because almost all groups do not lend itself to using pets. Without a pet our DPS suffers due to all the issues discussed in in the "1 March" thread.</p><p><b><u>So, and this is important, many Coercers who only solo or group with regular bunch friends may be totally ignorant of most of the issues we are talking about because it does not affect them.</u></b></p><p>Another factor is anyone who makes it to 50 or so on a Coercer is going to be a person is basically optimistic to begin with or they would have given the class up many levels ago for an easier class. Coercers, until they learn the finese involved are going to die an many, many, many, many times. Then once you learn the class, you only die allot. lol</p><p>Coercer's are by far (This is a Coercer deep dark secret here, so dont spread it around) the most fun class to play by far. Thats why the very few who have made it to 80 and stuck it out are so intense about the class. </p><p>That said, we can still be a very fun class and still be very in need of fixing. The 1 March thread very clearly lists our problems. The issues revolve mostly around raiding.</p><p>There is no reason that our DPS cannot be raised to match that of Illusionists. We lay out a clear case why it is not and why our utility to raids are falling. These points are clear in the 1 March post and many great posts detailing it out are in this very thread.</p><p><u><b>Gnorbin, we all really appreciate the effort you are putting into helping us get attention from the devs. Many of us consider, you as our only hope of getting their attention.</b></u> That said, statements like you made above, just illustrate the exact frustration that we lived with for years. </p><p>We need a boost to our raid utility.</p><p>We need our raid/group(non pet use) DPS boosted to match Illusionists.</p><p>Like some one else said, if boosting our DPS in raids makes our solo DPS too high, then put in some limiting factor that boosts our DPS to match Illusionists, when we dont have a pet, yet does not break our our utility by using those conc slots we need for that. </p><hr /><p>As someone mentioned above, look at the folks who are trying to get the point across there is a problem with Coercers.</p><p>Here is just a <b><u>small glimpse</u></b> at a very few of the people who have posted, trying to communicate to the Devs there is a problem with Coercers. </p><p><b>Lleinen</b> Loremaster <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/avatar/EQ2/coercer.gif" border="0" alt="" width="70" height="70" /> Joined: Dec 22, 2004</p><p> <b>Rijacki</b> Loremaster <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/avatar/EQ2/illusionist.gif" border="0" alt="" width="70" height="70" /> Joined: Nov 11, 2004</p><p><b>Wrapye</b> Loremaster <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/avatar/EQ2/coercer.gif" border="0" alt="" width="70" height="70" /> Joined: Nov 29, 2004</p><p><b>Braumiller</b> Loremaster Joined: Nov 9, 2004</p><p><b>RingleToo</b> Loremaster Joined: Nov 13, 2004</p><p><b>Svenghali</b> Server: MistmooreGuild: Essence of EvilRank: Arch Fiend (Officer)Loremaster <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/avatar/EQ2/coercer.gif" border="0" alt="" width="70" height="70" /> Joined: Nov 10, 2004</p><p> <b>Vicante</b> Server: NagafenGuild: InsurrectionRank: Mutineer / In the BrigLoremaster <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/avatar/EQ2/coercer.gif" border="0" alt="" width="70" height="70" /> Joined: Nov 16, 2004</p><p><b>Scry</b> Loremaster <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/avatar/EQ2/conjurer.gif" border="0" alt="" width="70" height="70" /> Joined: Nov 26, 2004</p><p><b>Sonorod</b> Loremaster <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/avatar/EQ2/coercer.gif" border="0" alt="" width="70" height="70" /> Joined: Nov 23, 2004 </p><p><b>Rythen16</b> Loremaster <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/avatar/EQ2/summer/bbq.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="100" height="100" /> Joined: Nov 27, 2004 </p><p><b>AkiraCrash</b> Loremaster Joined: Nov 26, 2004</p><p><b>Maroger</b> Loremaster <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/avatar/EQ2/eq2_brown.gif" border="0" alt="" width="70" height="70" /> Joined: Nov 11, 2004</p><p><b>Signal9</b> Loremaster <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/avatar/EQ2/darkelf-m.jpg" border="0" alt="" width="80" height="84" /> Joined: Nov 13, 2004</p><p>Like I said this is a very, very <u>small sample</u> of those who having been playing EQ2 since the very start and are saying that Coercers are badly in need of fixing.</p><p>We are not just a bunch of whining cry babies here, while the "real" Coercers are out there all happy and singing songs around the camp fire. We are the ones who actually pay more attention to our class and know the real issues with it.</p><p>You asked us to make a thread that consolidated our issues. We have done that with the  thread., "1 March..."  It details our issues quite well. </p><p>After the Titanic hit the iceberg, there were a few folks thought there was nothing to worry about and still were "pretty happy".</p>

[Signal9]

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The unusual thing though, is that the coercers I've spoken to are pretty happy.  There's a few here within the forums that are not (some, REALLY unhappy) happy, but the folks I've even spoken to ingame are pleased with the process.  I'll still forward the issues to the development team for further review though, in case there's a happy medium that can be reached.</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p></blockquote><p>Ok, deep breaths have been taken, and I've counted to 10,000.</p><p>Gnobrin, were you drinking when posing this steaming pile of tripe?  Let's parse this a bit.</p><p>The unusual thing though, is that the coercers I've spoken to are pretty happy.  - How many have you spoken to, and of what level/playstyle?  Define "pretty happy".  3 on a scale of 10?  9 of 10?</p><p>There's a few on the forums that are not happy - A few indicating the vast majority of the posts on this forum, and extending back far past your tenure here. But the folks I've spoken to in game are pleased with the proccess - What proccess?  We are not concerned about a proccess, we are concerned with the state of Coercers. You seem to be concerned with the proccess of fluffing us while doing your "review" of our status.</p><p>Put yourself in our place for a moment, and reread your post.  Does it come over as condescending to you now as it did to us?</p><p>*shows hands*  Peace out.</p>

[Ursanne]

<p>I play for a family guild that raids T1 a few nights a week.  It's not a hard-core guild by any stretch of the imagination.  Even in my situation I can see my roll being marginalized and our leadership looking at a Coercer's contribution as situational.  I feel the need to give 110% every pull to justify my spot in the raid.  It's not fun nor rewarding to be under such pressure to perform.</p>

[Akhm]

just hope we get more dps overall for solo and raid.. because without a pet we are basically a mana/stun botthe life of a coercer is a unique one ;Pbut still a fun one

[Lleinen]

<p>Nice post Svenghali.  IMO Our DPS needs to be upped more than illusionistsORour utility needs to be brought to their level as well as our DPS ORour utility needs to surpass that of an illusionist and our dps still needs to be bumped a little, but not as high as illus</p><p>Needs to be some kind of balance, obviously im all for the first one cause im a DPS nut...but either 3 would be fine as long as our utility is worth it</p>

[Rijacki]

I am so touched to be part of <span class="postbody">Svenghali's collection <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />I haven't been playing a coercer since launch, just the game as a whole.  Yes, coercer IS the most fun class to fit my personal playstyle, but that doesn't mean coercers aren't horridly broken especially in a raid setting but also in groups.The few things a coercer brings to a group or raid are being supplanted by gear.The reactive damage and the power drain issues have been problems since before I started playing a coercer (someone even brought them up in-person at the last Fan Faire and the issue was rather, umm, swept away without any answer).Even knowing there were things broken about coercer, I still started one (a few months before RoK) and I have started a couple more since because I really enjoy playing the class DESPITE THE ISSUES.  If the problems were fixed, I would just love the class even more.BTW, it was rather ironic that the person who posted the stickied issues thread betrayed to Illusionist and posted the information about that just a few posts before Gnobrin posted a "good thread keep it up" post.  *rolls her eyes*  Yeah, he read the thread alright...</span>

[Alfgand]

<p>Ok, my fellow Coercers, look at this from the Dev forum from Rothgar,one of the "devs". (Bold and Underline were added by me for emphasis)</p><p><cite>Rothgar wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Heya!I just wanted to post an update.  Autenil and I have been on for a couple of hours almost every night this week.  Unfortunately its been pretty late, around 9-12pm PST.  (Sorry east coasters!)I'm playing a Coercer and Autenil is on a Ranger.  I think we're both level 17 at the moment.  I've been having a great time, and while I haven't gotten to group with others as much as I had hoped, spending time talking to everyone in the /test channel has been a blast.  <b><u>I've already been made aware of, and fixed, at least 2 bugs as a result of playing and talking with others on the Test Server.  Hopefully that's 2 less bugs that would have made it to live.When I've gotten a bit further along in the Coercer class, I'll post my impressions in the Coercer forum and I'm sure Autenil would be willing to do the same.</u></b>Feel free to roll a character on Test and add us to your friends list.  Don't be a shy about sending us a tell and saying hello if you see us online, that's what we're there for!</blockquote><p>Ok, This could be good, very good or horrible! lol  (Or maybe nothing. lol)</p><p>The bugs he mentioned may have nothing to do with Coercers.</p><p>Oh, the suspense ! Argh! </p><p>Link to complete thread:</p><p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=180&topic_id=412060" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=412060</a> </p>

[Skua]

lol happy? ....bad joke...i stoped playing my coercer LOOOONG TIME AGO ...isnt worth my time......and thats just sad.....i loved the coercer idea.....but in eq2 coerces are the worst class ......why? i dont want to repeat , since there are plenty of post with coercer issues...but come on , go make a coercer 80 solo - with treasured and ad1 spells....u will have FUN ......- legendary and ad3 spells...... group - treasured ad1- legendary ad3raid - legendary ad3 - fabled m1....Tank , parry , dodge , block..... /tap where is my procmana drain spells ? LOLcharm ? WHAT A JOKE , is like jumping off from a cloud in kos , or soloing a x4 red mob.....asking for debt .....just change the name of all charm spells , Asking for debt...try to charm a mobs , that will break as soon as the coercer is engaged in combat .....1 shoting the poor coercerThoughstones......N crystals ect , get rid of this stupid rocks already ....AAs.....check illus AAs , check Coercers AAs , *shakes head* *cry*blablabla .........

[mcavellero]

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>The unusual thing though, is that the coercers I've spoken to are pretty happy.  There's a few here within the forums that are not (some, REALLY unhappy) happy, but the folks I've even spoken to ingame are pleased with the process.  I'll still forward the issues to the development team for further review though, in case there's a happy medium that can be reached.</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p></blockquote>In addition to the reasons the guy mentioned above, one simple concept...cognitive dissonance and I'm a prime example of this. You play a coercer for so many years, invest so much time...  How do you justify that time invested?  Is it wasted?  <b>Of Course Not!!!</b> The thing is the longer you play, the harder it is to let go and the more justification you think of.  I made macros for stunning, +dps, mana and so on... to justify to myself, to others that I actually did something kinda useful when the truth was it helped...but <u>was def not an asset/needed</u> just like on raids....   Truth be told...coercer buffs definitely do not come close to being as useful as  trouby, dirge, illusionist buffs!  And on top of that dps is sub par due to it being dependent on whether the target is getting hit/going to get hit(havent played a coercer in a  while)  And this is NOT an opinion but a fact.Dirges are needed for hate gain, stoneskin parry on raids. (not really expendable)Illusionists are needed for tandem, +attack speed, time compression, +int/resist spells on raids. (not really expendable)Troubies decrease hate of grp by 30%, AoA, jesters cap (not really expendable)Coercers have a 14% hate gain/transfer, mana gain, +dps(+attack speed is better due to proc effects)...expendable because hate gain(which is the highlight) can be substituted by assass, swash or illusionist(time compression)....expendable!It was hard to betray, to let go but I did!  I am an illusionist now, it rocks....I hope they fix you guys soon!Gluck!

[Lleinen]

The thing is illusionist buffs just overshadow ours so much.Dont get me wrong, the dps buff is awsome, and peaceful link works great....but thats it.Our DPS is so inconsistant it makes me sick.  On some mobs I can just not try and still parse the same as if I was trying, just because the way our attacks work.The big difference between Hostage and Prismatic is that, ours procs when a mob hits, theirs procs when a player hits.The player is buffed to the extreme in raids, with +weapon skills, haste, dps, double attack, crit, etc.The mobs are debuffed to the extreme in raids, with -weapon skills, -attack speed, -dps, -str, etc.The problem is players attack so fast and hit so much that Prismatic is basically a 15k nuke about everytime its casted because its used up IMMEDIATELY.  Hostage, lasts 40sec, and Im not kidding when I can say Ive seen it expire with 4-5 triggers still on it.The other problem is tanks are buffed to have around 70% avoidance, plus 30% block and so on and so fourth, plus using other classes avoidance checks, then there are wards.  So if the hit is avoided by any means or warded, its not considered successful.  Thus, we get no proc.Melee, even in VP have a minimal MISSING HIT RATE of 30-35% at MOST.  Their hit rate is 60-65% and its only going to go up with the next GU (Thx for nerfing casters to their level then beefing up melee again, awsome, i love spending the first 25-35% of the mob getting resisted, or 5-7% of a named).  Mobs have a hit rate of 30%, but they hit HARD.  But thats where the comparision is.Mobs hit slow, and miss a lot, or get their attacks warded, thus no triggers.Players hit fast, hard, and only miss CURRENTLY 30-35% AT MOST (less in t1-3), their attacks DONT get warded, EVER, thus non-stop triggers.Just nerf the damage slightly of our hostage spell to be in line with prismatic (full trigger dmg vs full trigger dmg), make it proc on any attack (be it attempted, warded, avoided, whatever).  There, done, wow, thats hard.Then you may be thinking, well, you guys have Spell Curse too? Uhh, thats not fair.  Oh wait, illusionists have time compression, group rapidity, haste, uber mythical proc, resist buff for spells every 1.5min, plus another i believe that makes them use less power, plus mana shroud like us...i mean, fug off.  They have WAY more than us, if anything make Spell Curse work on resisted/avoided/warded spells too.  I know spell lash sure as hell isnt proc'ing off every spell cast like it said (EX : drake AE in VP, I ll see it go off and 15 ppl get knocked back, yet it only uses 2 triggers???)==================That, or give us utility that beats our illusionists, because we all know they are too overpowered.

[pebyr]

i've been playing since christmas of 04.  I've leveled over about a dozen character classes to the level cap, and I have never seen a character class with these problems.  I even played a summoner after the pet nerf, complaining about mage pets running into melee.  Even when after EoF, my zerker became marginalized due to mitigation mods, and i've never seen a class as broken as the coercer is.  It is frustrating to have to work so hard, and get so much less out of it.  At my best, the only way i can match an illusionist for dps, is if they get the mystic with their mythical and i dont.My wife who plays also, laughed today and commented on my fascination with playing broken classes.  I know its because I like feeling unique, but maybe i should change that, with the realization that unique means nobody's playing it for a reason.  As I see my guild get more and more of their mythicals, i get more and more the urge to level my illusionist...

[Lleinen]

<p>plz post here</p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=414201" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=414201</a></p>