Ultor Szanvon, Bertoxxulous, and the Void

[Gukkor2]

<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.lorelibrary.com/?page=book&bid=192" target="_blank">http://www.lorelibrary.com/?page=book&bid=192</a></p><p>Don't know if this has been discussed before; if it has, my apologies.</p><p>Anyway, this book seems to tell the story of Ultor Szanvon and the fall of the people that would become the Lepertoloth (a favored race of Bertoxxulous' that resides on the Plane of Disease) from a different perspective.  Now, this story is closely tied to Bertoxxulous.  Some even think it tells the story of his birth.  What's interesting to me, though, is that this is a Remembrances book, which seems to be a fragment of literature from the last days of a world that has been taken over by the Void (Berrox, in this case).  So, then, we can conclude that not only are the Lepertoloth from a different world entirely, but that those of their people who <b>weren't</b> twisted into servants of Bertoxxulous were invaded and defeated by the Void.</p><p>This is a pretty big coincidence.  Could Bertoxxulous himself have some sort of connection to the Void?</p>

[Cusashorn]

<p>*Reads the story*</p><p>... wait, what? I know about King Adan and who he is, but what does this have to do with Bert?</p>

[Apocroph]

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>*Reads the story*</p><p>... wait, what? I know about King Adan and who he is, but what does this have to do with Bert?</p></blockquote>It's sort of a roundabout, possibly circumstantial connection between the book from OoLS ("Remembrances&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and the story of King Adan, Ultor Szanvon, Lxanvom and Bertoxxulous.Gukkor seems to think the Lepertoloth originated from a world that ended up being dominated by the Void, and that  some made it to the Plane of Disease and became favored servants of Bertoxxulous.....if I read all that correctly.

[Gukkor2]

<p><b>The Necropolis of Lxanvon Vol. I ================================ Arrival of the Plague Bringer ----------------------------- In a Norrathian ago long past, when dragons ruled the lands, seas, and skies, an ancient race did spring forth from the will of an unknown god. They were a cunning and powerful race of being, able to survive in a harsh world ruled by the scaled children of Veeshan. The true name of this extinct civilization has been lost to the mists of time, the evidence of their existence buried and all but destroyed by the elements and the forces of change. The eldest of dragons sometimes whisper tales of this lost race of beings who were the first to stand against and slay the great children of Veeshan. They speak of them to their young, as a human mother would tell ghost stories to her child. The dragons whispered tales of a great kingdom of wicked yet noble beings that built cities from the bones and sinew of the slain children of Veeshan. This is one such tale, passed down to the scribes of New Tanaan many years past by the dragon sorcerer Ulvaxazoviak. Many ages ago, in a time that only the spirits of the ancestor dragons can recall, a long dead ancient race, The Xulous they are called in the tales of my kind, did build upon the lands that would become Tunaria a great necropolis to house their dead kings. The crypts of the necropolis were fashioned from preserved remains of slain dragons and it was called Lxanvon, which means in the tongue of The Xulous, 'Kings Rest'. As the necropolis filled with the dead Xulous royalty, honored and revered in death as much as in life, a festering evil began to take over in the lowest bowels of the crypts of the kings. The Xulous, through their adoration and reverence of their rotting kings, their defilement of the dead children of Veeshan, and their dependance on the deaths of dragons for the expansion of their kingdoms did unkowingly bring a powerful and ancient evil to Norrath. As years passed, the evil presence in the bowels of Lxanvon grew stronger, and there, within the rotting corpses of those ancient kings, Bertoxxulous was born. ================================= The Necropolis of Lxanvon Vol. II ================================= The royal priests of the Xulous kingdoms often journeyed from their ivory cities to Lxanvon on behalf of their people, to deliver offerings and praises to their dead kings. Bertoxxulous, donning the decaying bodies of the dead Xulous nobles, appeared before these royal priests demanding obedience, reverence, and sacrifices. Bertoxxulous deceived and corrupted the minds of the royal priests and their allegiance belonged to the Lord of Death and Decay above their living kings. Amidst these firsts priests of decay, one was held above the others, Ultor Szanvon the Putrid; he led the priests of decay in the spreading of their dark doctrine. Ultor, an influential priest in service to the mightiest of the Xulous nobles schemed and murdered his way into the position of chief advisor to the living Xulous King. Ultor convinced the Xulous King to visit the tombs of his ancestors, and there within the presence of Bertoxxulous' full might he performed a dark ritual, sacrificing the kind in the bowels of the crypt. Through the dark ritual Ultor summoned twelve spirits of previous Xulous kings and bound them to his service. The risen undead kings rose armies of the dead from the necropolis of Lxanvon and spread across the lands ravaging all in their path, and leaving only death and destruction in their wake. Those who were not destroyed by the weapons of the undead armies were killed slowly by a deadly plague, carried by the risen kings, and spread like wildfire amidst the Xulous. Their entire race succumbed to the pestilence and the Xulous were no more. Bertoxxulous, pleased and swollen with pride by his genocidal accomplishment called his minions back to the necropolis that had served as their resting place for so many years. The risen Xulous kings gathered in the bowels of their crypts as a great mist enveloped Lxanvon. The ancient dragons watched from afar as the mists cleared, revealing only a barren and broken landscape where the necropolis had once lied. It is said that the necropolis of Lxanvon still exists in the Plane of Disease, unchanged from when the ancient dragons witnessed its vanishing from Norrath, and that the form Bertoxxulous favors when visiting Lxanvon is a twisted visage of the long dead race he destroyed, so many ages ago. </b></p><p>King's Rest and Ultor Szanvon are parts of both stories.  Both stories have Ultor and King Adan entering King's Rest alone and the king meeting his end in the crypt.  That's enough to convince me that they're describing the same events.</p><p>There are some definite discrepancies, though.  For one thing, assuming Remembrances: Berrox follows the pattern of the other books in the Remembrances series, "Berrox" is the name of the planet on which the story takes place.  However, the version of the story told to the scholars of New Tanaan takes place on Norrath.</p>

[Apocroph]

So, assuming none of this stuff is in direct conflict with the lore they have planned for EQ2:-The Xulous are the Lepertoloth-The Xulous/Lepertoloth once resided on Norrath.-At some point, Lxanvom was teleported to the Plane of Disease, presumably by Bertoxxulous himself.-Interesting side note: Conjoining the Draconian names for the city/planet and race results in "Berroxxulous."-Somewhere between the arrival of the obelisk, and Lxanvom's shifting, Ultor Szanvon murders King Adan.Curious speech by Bertoxxulous, from <i>Shadows and Decay</i> (PoP teaser lore): "Am I expected to be concerned with the meddling of mortals? This problem has already been dealt with. Nothing can change what has been done! Leave this place and tell your master that I will have no more talk of this matter!" the creature roared at the slumped figure. <p>As the messenger ran from the room he could hear the words being shouted again, "Nothing can change what has been done!"</p><p>What is still unclear:-Is "Berrox" an inaccurate translation?-Where does Bertoxxulous's birth sit on the timeline of these events?  At least a month before Adan's death.-Is Ultor's claim to have known the secrets of the obelisk simply an excuse to get the King to Lxanvom, or does he actually know what's going on?Also, looking back through the Bertoxxulous ring event from PoP, the last Adan before Bertoxx is Pzo Adan.  I'd think he'd be the King Adan sacrificed at the end, since he was most important to the plot.</p><p>Edit: Can't seem to get the speech to blockquote.</p>

[Daine]

Perhaps the story took place on Norrath and then that section of Norrath was astrally relocated or copied to become part of the Plane of Disease.  It's also possible that one or perhaps even both of the versions got the location wrong, as geography is twisted and forgotten over time.

[Basho]

<cite>kuraan wrote:</cite><blockquote>Also, looking back through the Bertoxxulous ring event from PoP, the last Adan before Bertoxx is Pzo Adan.  I'd think he'd be the King Adan sacrificed at the end, since he was most important to the plot.</blockquote>If I remember correctly, you never fight the king who was sacrificed.  Only the 12 previous kings.  You fight them in reverse order, lineage wise.Here's a little extra Lxanvom lore from the EQlive site that's been posted recently due to their fabled planes of power event (it all seems to match the original lore to me): <a href="http://eqplayers.station.sony.com/news_article.vm?id=50865" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://eqplayers.station.sony.com/n...cle.vm?id=50865</a>Since the Remembrances book uses the name Berrox, I wonder if any/all of the other obelisk books might refer to Norrath - just at a different point in time.  They all could be candidates except for the one that mentions that there are at least 9 suns in the sky.

[Apocroph]

<cite>Basho wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>If I remember correctly, you never fight the king who was sacrificed.  Only the 12 previous kings.  You fight them in reverse order, lineage wise.Here's a little extra Lxanvom lore from the EQlive site that's been posted recently due to their fabled planes of power event (it all seems to match the original lore to me): <a rel="nofollow" href="http://eqplayers.station.sony.com/news_article.vm?id=50865" target="_blank">http://eqplayers.station.sony.com/n...cle.vm?id=50865</a>Since the Remembrances book uses the name Berrox, I wonder if any/all of the other obelisk books might refer to Norrath - just at a different point in time.  They all could be candidates except for the one that mentions that there are at least 9 suns in the sky.</blockquote>Judging from that link you provided, you're correct about never fighting that king.  It was just an educated guess on my part, before I'd seen any of that new fabled PoP lore.And you may just be onto something with that last idea.  I'd be really [Removed for Content] if Bertoxxulous is the driving force behind the shadowed men though.  It's plausible though, if you look at how he came to be in control of Raex and and Vindor.  {<a href="http://eqplayers.station.sony.com/news_article.vm?id=50868" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Crypt of Decay lore, pt. 2</a>}

[Daarom]

<cite>Cusashorn wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>*Reads the story*</p><p>... wait, what? I know about King Adan and who he is, but what does this have to do with Bert?</p></blockquote><a rel="nofollow" href="http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/search.shtml?id=10517" target="_blank">http://eqbeastiary.allakhazam.com/s....shtml?id=10517</a>King Adan wanted revenge for the Betrayal.When you slaugthered Ulthor; Adan gave you access to Bertoxxolous

[Katook]

<p>Having not played EQ1, I wasn't aware of the immediate connection with Berty and King Adan and the Berrox story from OoLS until filling in some of the pieces from the lore board.  In response to the initial post, I think Berrox is another planet as are all the other remembrances (except Norrath of course).  Here's why - I think Prime is the home planet of Rodcet Nife.   Perhaps this has been discussed before but I couldn't readily find it in the forums.  My thought is that Berty and Rodcet are both refugees from worlds destroyed by the Void.  In fact, if you read "Remembrances - Prime", the story mentions how the people contact the world reknowned healer - Doctor Effin.  Looks like another play on Doctor Fine.   Additional evidence of the correlation is that it's a planet of people who are generally surprised when someone is ill.  Due to the fact that Doctor Effin apparently invented a cure to all disease with his Panacea Cure.  Sounds like someone who could assume the role of the Prime Healer to me.  </p><p> Oh one other note - the disease the people of Prime are suffering from sounds like they are turning into Nightbloods.  Just a thought</p>

[Apocroph]

<cite>Katook wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Having not played EQ1, I wasn't aware of the immediate connection with Berty and King Adan and the Berrox story from OoLS until filling in some of the pieces from the lore board.  In response to the initial post, I think Berrox is another planet as are all the other remembrances (except Norrath of course).  Here's why - I think Prime is the home planet of Rodcet Nife.   Perhaps this has been discussed before but I couldn't readily find it in the forums.  My thought is that Berty and Rodcet are both refugees from worlds destroyed by the Void.  In fact, if you read "Remembrances - Prime", the story mentions how the people contact the world reknowned healer - Doctor Effin.  Looks like another play on Doctor Fine.   Additional evidence of the correlation is that it's a planet of people who are generally surprised when someone is ill.  Due to the fact that Doctor Effin apparently invented a cure to all disease with his Panacea Cure.  Sounds like someone who could assume the role of the Prime Healer to me.  </p><p> Oh one other note - the disease the people of Prime are suffering from sounds like they are turning into Nightbloods.  Just a thought</p></blockquote>I thought we'd decided that the Crypt of Decay once resided on Norrath.  Antonica, specifically.

[Gukkor2]

<cite>kuraan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Katook wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Having not played EQ1, I wasn't aware of the immediate connection with Berty and King Adan and the Berrox story from OoLS until filling in some of the pieces from the lore board.  In response to the initial post, I think Berrox is another planet as are all the other remembrances (except Norrath of course).  Here's why - I think Prime is the home planet of Rodcet Nife.   Perhaps this has been discussed before but I couldn't readily find it in the forums.  My thought is that Berty and Rodcet are both refugees from worlds destroyed by the Void.  In fact, if you read "Remembrances - Prime", the story mentions how the people contact the world reknowned healer - Doctor Effin.  Looks like another play on Doctor Fine.   Additional evidence of the correlation is that it's a planet of people who are generally surprised when someone is ill.  Due to the fact that Doctor Effin apparently invented a cure to all disease with his Panacea Cure.  Sounds like someone who could assume the role of the Prime Healer to me.  </p><p> Oh one other note - the disease the people of Prime are suffering from sounds like they are turning into Nightbloods.  Just a thought</p></blockquote>I thought we'd decided that the Crypt of Decay once resided on Norrath.  Antonica, specifically.</blockquote>It's still uncertain.  The Remembrances books might not follow the pattern we think they do (i.e. each describes events of a different planet), the dragons could have been mistaken about the birth of Bertoxxulous taking place on Norrath, or the scholars of New Tanaan might have embellished the story in their retelling and incorrectly assumed that the story took place on Norrath.

[Daarom]

<cite>Katook wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Having not played EQ1, I wasn't aware of the immediate connection with Berty and King Adan and the Berrox story from OoLS until filling in some of the pieces from the lore board.  In response to the initial post, I think Berrox is another planet as are all the other remembrances (except Norrath of course).  Here's why - I think Prime is the home planet of Rodcet Nife.   Perhaps this has been discussed before but I couldn't readily find it in the forums.  My thought is that Berty and Rodcet are both refugees from worlds destroyed by the Void.  In fact, if you read "Remembrances - Prime", the story mentions how the people contact the world reknowned healer - Doctor Effin.  Looks like another play on Doctor Fine.   Additional evidence of the correlation is that it's a planet of people who are generally surprised when someone is ill.  Due to the fact that Doctor Effin apparently invented a cure to all disease with his Panacea Cure.  Sounds like someone who could assume the role of the Prime Healer to me.  </p><p> Oh one other note - the disease the people of Prime are suffering from sounds like they are turning into Nightbloods.  Just a thought</p></blockquote>Basically there is an "invaded by shadowmen" Planet list in the Ools.Rememberance - Berrox -> Berrox-Xolous -> BertoxxolousRememberance - Prime -> Doctor Effin -> Rodcet Nifeinteresting have to have another look at the books - again.If there are more -Gods- from other planets that have been invated by shadowmen then I guess they will have a kind of showdown on Norrath

[Apocroph]

<cite>Nadjira@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Basically there is an "invaded by shadowmen" Planet list in the Ools.Rememberance - Berrox -> Berrox-Xolous -> BertoxxolousRememberance - Prime -> Doctor Effin -> Rodcet Nifeinteresting have to have another look at the books - again.If there are more -Gods- from other planets that have been invated by shadowmen then I guess they will have a kind of showdown on Norrath</blockquote>I don't know about you guys, but I would be extremely upset if our pantheon "turned out" to be a bunch of interplanetary refugees.That kind of thinking is what provided us with GoD/OoW.

[Katook]

<cite>kuraan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nadjira@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Basically there is an "invaded by shadowmen" Planet list in the Ools.Rememberance - Berrox -> Berrox-Xolous -> BertoxxolousRememberance - Prime -> Doctor Effin -> Rodcet Nifeinteresting have to have another look at the books - again.If there are more -Gods- from other planets that have been invated by shadowmen then I guess they will have a kind of showdown on Norrath</blockquote>I don't know about you guys, but I would be extremely upset if our pantheon "turned out" to be a bunch of interplanetary refugees.That kind of thinking is what provided us with GoD/OoW.</blockquote>I agree and I personally don't think that's where all the Gods came from nor do I think more may be coming.  It could be an issue of symmetry in the lore.  You have Disease and Health coming from similar places (other planets) one entity dealt with the destruction of his people by wanting to help other civilizations.  The other could have been corrupted by it.   The various planets listed in the Remembrances may not have had any refugees to come to Norrath or maybe they all went to Chon to warn them of the dangers of the shadowmen and that's why the anchor there is having issues.  Who knows?  But imho these stories, besides showing how the Void manifests itself on various worlds, are meant as a hidden background story to two pretty vague dieties that came much later than the others through somewhat mysterious means. 

[Gukkor2]

<cite>Katook wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kuraan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Nadjira@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Basically there is an "invaded by shadowmen" Planet list in the Ools.Rememberance - Berrox -> Berrox-Xolous -> BertoxxolousRememberance - Prime -> Doctor Effin -> Rodcet Nifeinteresting have to have another look at the books - again.If there are more -Gods- from other planets that have been invated by shadowmen then I guess they will have a kind of showdown on Norrath</blockquote>I don't know about you guys, but I would be extremely upset if our pantheon "turned out" to be a bunch of interplanetary refugees.That kind of thinking is what provided us with GoD/OoW.</blockquote>I agree and I personally don't think that's where all the Gods came from nor do I think more may be coming.  It could be an issue of symmetry in the lore.  You have Disease and Health coming from similar places (other planets) one entity dealt with the destruction of his people by wanting to help other civilizations.  The other could have been corrupted by it.   The various planets listed in the Remembrances may not have had any refugees to come to Norrath or maybe they all went to Chon to warn them of the dangers of the shadowmen and that's why the anchor there is having issues.  Who knows?  But imho these stories, besides showing how the Void manifests itself on various worlds, are meant as a hidden background story to two pretty vague dieties that came much later than the others through somewhat mysterious means.  </blockquote><p>Right.  While this (in my mind) almost certainly reveals that Rodcet Nife was once a mortal, and Bertoxxulous was once...something besides a god, it doesn't say anything about the rest of the pantheon, and it certainly doesn't retcon previously-established origins (i.e. the Marr twins could not have been planetary refugees because that contradicts their established origins).</p><p>Kuraan, you sure do go off on the Discord storyline a lot.  I almost <i>want</i> to see a Discord expansion in EQ2, just to see your reaction. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Apocroph]

<cite>Gukkor2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Right.  While this (in my mind) almost certainly reveals that Rodcet Nife was once a mortal, and Bertoxxulous was once...something besides a god, it doesn't say anything about the rest of the pantheon, and it certainly doesn't retcon previously-established origins (i.e. the Marr twins could not have been planetary refugees because that contradicts their established origins).<p>Kuraan, you sure do go off on the Discord storyline a lot.  I almost <i>want</i> to see a Discord expansion in EQ2, just to see your reaction. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>The Marr twins have established stories, yes.  Tarew Marr does not.  Fennin Ro does not...  You see where I'm going with this?All I'm saying is that I'll be insulted enough to quit if they play the "they came from another planet" card and then expect that I believe that it's remotely likely that both Rodcet Nife and Bertoxxulous would happen to find their way to OURS <i><b>and</b></i> become deities.I like the idea of a festering decay gaining sentience in the depths of Lxanvom.  It's an original idea.  It suits Bertoxxulous beautifully.  Undermining that by making him an interplanetary refugee from these chumps and their towers really destroys the elegance and spirit of Everquest's lore, so I hope to god they don't do it.And it's not so much that I hated the Discord story.  I hated that it was incredibly far-fetched and uncharacteristic of the world, in the context of the story that had preceded it.  In a universe other than Everquest's, the Discord storyline would have been fine, but as I've said before, it doesn't fit in this universe.  Keep the space alien garbage for Star Trek Online.

[Gukkor2]

<cite>kuraan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gukkor2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Right.  While this (in my mind) almost certainly reveals that Rodcet Nife was once a mortal, and Bertoxxulous was once...something besides a god, it doesn't say anything about the rest of the pantheon, and it certainly doesn't retcon previously-established origins (i.e. the Marr twins could not have been planetary refugees because that contradicts their established origins). <p>Kuraan, you sure do go off on the Discord storyline a lot.  I almost <i>want</i> to see a Discord expansion in EQ2, just to see your reaction. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>The Marr twins have established stories, yes.  Tarew Marr does not.  Fennin Ro does not...  You see where I'm going with this?All I'm saying is that I'll be insulted enough to quit if they play the "they came from another planet" card and then expect that I believe that it's remotely likely that both Rodcet Nife and Bertoxxulous would happen to find their way to OURS <i><b>and</b></i> become deities.I like the idea of a festering decay gaining sentience in the depths of Lxanvom.  It's an original idea.  It suits Bertoxxulous beautifully.  Undermining that by making him an interplanetary refugee from these chumps and their towers really destroys the elegance and spirit of Everquest's lore, so I hope to god they don't do it.And it's not so much that I hated the Discord story.  I hated that it was incredibly far-fetched and uncharacteristic of the world, in the context of the story that had preceded it.  In a universe other than Everquest's, the Discord storyline would have been fine, but as I've said before, it doesn't fit in this universe.  Keep the space alien garbage for Star Trek Online.</blockquote><p>Actually, I'm pretty sure it's been established where the elemental gods came from.  They emerged from the Nameless directly.  No threat of them becoming trivialized, if you ask me.</p><p>As for Bertoxxulous, nobody's suggesting that he was ever a mortal living on another planet before he came a god.  That would indeed be kinda on the stupid side, given that his archrival among the gods apparently had such an origin.  What <b>is</b> being suggested is that his origin story, the story in which he develops from the decay within Lxanvom, actually takes place on Berrox rather than Norrath.  It's not so far-fetched that he would become known on our world; I've yet to see convincing evidence that the gods we know are only the gods of Norrath, and not of many worlds, or perhaps the entire universe.  Rodcet Nife may be known by other names on other worlds, but until shown evidence to the contrary, I'll assume that he's the Prime Healer no matter what planet we're talking about.</p><p>In any case, I'm almost positive that Rodcet's origin story is largely unique to him.  The only reason he ever became a god in the first place was because Anashti Sul failed so miserably at it, and the pantheon needed a replacement.  Even his power level as a deity is an indication that his is a special case; normally, mortals raised to godhood become mere demigods, usually lesser degree of power than the primary gods of Norrath.  The fact that Rodcet Nife is considered among the latter group, rather than the former, is pretty unusual.</p><p>I wouldn't be surprised at all if many of the gods we're familiar with end up having unique origins.  The old introductions of the gods ("and then this god showed up and did this&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> weren't exactly descriptive, after all.</p>

[Katook]

<cite>Gukkor2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>kuraan wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gukkor2 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Right.  While this (in my mind) almost certainly reveals that Rodcet Nife was once a mortal, and Bertoxxulous was once...something besides a god, it doesn't say anything about the rest of the pantheon, and it certainly doesn't retcon previously-established origins (i.e. the Marr twins could not have been planetary refugees because that contradicts their established origins). <p>Kuraan, you sure do go off on the Discord storyline a lot.  I almost <i>want</i> to see a Discord expansion in EQ2, just to see your reaction. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>The Marr twins have established stories, yes.  Tarew Marr does not.  Fennin Ro does not...  You see where I'm going with this?All I'm saying is that I'll be insulted enough to quit if they play the "they came from another planet" card and then expect that I believe that it's remotely likely that both Rodcet Nife and Bertoxxulous would happen to find their way to OURS <i><b>and</b></i> become deities.I like the idea of a festering decay gaining sentience in the depths of Lxanvom.  It's an original idea.  It suits Bertoxxulous beautifully.  Undermining that by making him an interplanetary refugee from these chumps and their towers really destroys the elegance and spirit of Everquest's lore, so I hope to god they don't do it.And it's not so much that I hated the Discord story.  I hated that it was incredibly far-fetched and uncharacteristic of the world, in the context of the story that had preceded it.  In a universe other than Everquest's, the Discord storyline would have been fine, but as I've said before, it doesn't fit in this universe.  Keep the space alien garbage for Star Trek Online.</blockquote><p>Actually, I'm pretty sure it's been established where the elemental gods came from.  They emerged from the Nameless directly.  No threat of them becoming trivialized, if you ask me.</p><p>As for Bertoxxulous, nobody's suggesting that he was ever a mortal living on another planet before he came a god.  That would indeed be kinda on the stupid side, given that his archrival among the gods apparently had such an origin.  What <b>is</b> being suggested is that his origin story, the story in which he develops from the decay within Lxanvom, actually takes place on Berrox rather than Norrath.  It's not so far-fetched that he would become known on our world; I've yet to see convincing evidence that the gods we know are only the gods of Norrath, and not of many worlds, or perhaps the entire universe.  Rodcet Nife may be known by other names on other worlds, but until shown evidence to the contrary, I'll assume that he's the Prime Healer no matter what planet we're talking about.</p><p>In any case, I'm almost positive that Rodcet's origin story is largely unique to him.  The only reason he ever became a god in the first place was because Anashti Sul failed so miserably at it, and the pantheon needed a replacement.  Even his power level as a deity is an indication that his is a special case; normally, mortals raised to godhood become mere demigods, usually lesser degree of power than the primary gods of Norrath.  The fact that Rodcet Nife is considered among the latter group, rather than the former, is pretty unusual.</p><p>I wouldn't be surprised at all if many of the gods we're familiar with end up having unique origins.  The old introductions of the gods ("and then this god showed up and did this"<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> weren't exactly descriptive, after all.</p></blockquote><p>Again - I agree.  In the Berrox tale,  he's not even directly mentioned.  We correlate what the outcome is (the birth of Bertoxxulous) based on the similarities between the two stories.  Now i have a hard time reconciling these two stories.  Sure they have a lot in common including some names and places.  BUT:</p><p>1. Why is there no mention of the sudden appearance of a giant obelisk with strange creatures roaming around in the Dragon's version of the tale.  They have pretty intricate details of what happens in Lxanvom yet they miss the pink elephant in the room?  Imho, that's unusual. </p><p>2. Why is there no mention of disease wiping out anyone on Berrox.  After the King disappears we jump to a description of Armies large and small trying to take out the Obelisk.  Granted there are pages missing so the disease part could have been in the middle somewhere.  But essentially it ends with the people still very much alive fighting unsuccessfully to rid themselves of the Void creatures.</p><p>I would be crazy enough to suggest that these are two different events.  That Bertoxxulous arises on many worlds if certain conditions are met.  He apparently needs a giant catacomb with lots of dead people and Ultor needs to summon him by sacrificing royal blood.  Perhaps Ultor is a Demi-god or Avatar who is the herald of Bertoxxulous.  </p>

[DeBasilisk]

<span style="font-size: small;">Doctor Effin....</span><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-size: large;">E-F-F-I-Nbackwords:N-I-F-F-E (Nife)</span><span style="font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-size: small;">Doctor Effin (nife) from Prime.Prime Healer Rodcet Nife.I know I'm just hashing this point home. I just can't believe I didn't see this until just now. I must have been blind...(Edit)Oh yeah, I definitely agree that the primefolk seem to be turning into Nightbloods. No doubt.</span></span></span>

[goldfeesh641]

<cite>DeBasilisk wrote:</cite><blockquote><span style="font-size: small;">Doctor Effin....</span><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="font-size: large;">E-F-F-I-Nbackwords:N-I-F-F-E (Nife)</span><span style="font-size: x-small;"><span style="font-size: small;">Doctor Effin (nife) from Prime.Prime Healer Rodcet Nife.I know I'm just hashing this point home. I just can't believe I didn't see this until just now. I must have been blind...(Edit)Oh yeah, I definitely agree that the primefolk seem to be turning into Nightbloods. No doubt.</span></span></span></blockquote>Not to mention that Rodcet could be rearranged to Docter, which would likewise be pronounced the same way.So it may not even be a title so much anymore, it could be the Prime Healer (as in healer from Prime) Rodcet (Docter) Nife (Effin).And yes, I always had assumed that it was nightshades that they had been becoming...

[TheKons]

And we all know how SoE likes to use backwards names. ect. Qeynos = Sony EQ

[Lodrelhai]

And here I always figured Prime Healer meant first healer, or top healer - the primary god in charge of healing arts.  Interesting theory.  Though I'd put forth that it could also happen the other way, that Doctor Effin was actually an Avatar or living incarnation of Rodcet Nife.  From the sound of it Prime was a world more focused on science than magic, so it makes sense to me that the representation of a god on that world would rise through the ranks of their scientific community rather than being some wacko on the street corner preaching that all you need to be healed is faith.Similar with the Berrox story vs the origin of Bertoxxolous - certainly some hefty similarities, but enough differences that it makes them being the same account questionable.  I like Katook's theory, that rather than this being the absolute, original creation of Bertoxxolous, this may be how Bertoxxolous opts to directly manifest on a new world for the first time, with Ultor being his herald.  Just... this time when he showed up, someone else was there.  Provided Ultor a nice excuse to tempt the king into the crypt in this case, but their simultaneous presence was coincidental rather than causal.  We may even have some cultural contamination going on - the Void arrives on Norrath, in their infiltrations finds a story of a god rising which is very similar to something they saw happen firsthand, and the assumption is made that it is the same story, somehow migrated to this world.  Over time, between word of mouth and perhaps infiltrating agents slipping details accidentally ("King Aran?  I thought it was King Adan?&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, the stories are "corrected" and merged.IIRC, we do actually have evidence that the gods interact with other worlds - wasn't Veeshan basically going around planet-grabbing and putting her mark (and children) on any world that could sustain them?