Arrow Changes

[Boramyr]

<p>So while the arrows seem to be modifying the bows relative to each other properly on Test Making  a level 80 bow better than a level 70 bow and the level of Umbral Darkness's were changed to make them no good at 80.  I have to wonder. Is it intended to have an overall dps nerf?</p><p>With the exact same str and Dps mod on test and live I tested all combinations of Eagles Talon (fabled), Rigid Scale Bow, and Umbral Darkness, and Ferrite Field Point Arrows.  I do have a 10 dps adornment on my RSB and a 12 dps adornment on my ET.  </p><p>Now Rigid Scale bow with Umbral Darkness should be the same Live and Test.  </p><p>But On Live my /weapon is 898-3209  </p><p>On test My /weapon is 776-2720</p><p>And if the arrow mechanic was properly fixed then Eagles Talon and ferrite Arrows should be better on test than on live.  </p><p>But on Live my /weapon is 773-2827</p><p>On test my /weapon is 779-2790</p><p>And just for completeness sake on live the Eagle's Talon and Umbral Darkness /weapon is 812-2866</p><p> So in other words the FIX is at this moment a NERF.  </p>

[Aeralik]

The whole idea from the start was to give rangers a proper mechanic for arrows and ranged weapons.  From a dps perspective rangers were doing well beforehand so to up the current damage for the level 80 items wasn't going to work.  Using those as a baseline, I kept their damage the same but now you have the arrow scaling problem fixed.  This in turn had some effect on lower level items but a level 74 bow like the RSB shouldnt be outdamaging the fabled epic anyways. I know its not exactly what you wanted from the fix but the gain you would have had would have put you far beyond any class.

[Sydares]

It's disheartening to see something that was so potentially awesome fall completely flat on its face, but that's pretty much what it means to be a ranger in Everquest 2. You essentially ignored the primary complaint, and then nerfed our proc rates... and gave us a piddling (+50?) To melee CAs and our offensive stance. Not to mention you axed the +hit on our arrows once again. (Ferrite field point has gone down from +30 to hit to +10.) Essentially, this is going to result in a boost in DPS to people raiding orange content, and a reduction to, oh, the rest of the ranger population. The focus aim buff, while well-intentioned, is undesirable, especially since you essentially took away our consistent hit chances in order to compensate for a temporary hit buff. To use those numbers linked above, <i><span class="postbody"><p>On Live my Rigid Scale Bow is 898-3209 On test it is 776-2720</p></span><span class="postbody"><p>On Live my Fabled Eagle's Talon is 773-2827 On test it is 779-2790</p></span></i><u><span class="postbody">a level 74 bow like the RSB shouldnt be outdamaging the fabled epic anyways?</span></u><span class="postbody"> So, your grand solution to this was to lower the damage on both to be <b>equal</b> to one another? So it's okay for a <b>Level 70 fabled </b>To have a <b>nearly equal damage range</b> as not only a <b>Level 80 Fabled</b>, but our <b>EPIC?</b> You do realize that the <b>entire complaint here was that we felt no need to upgrade our bow, right? That our loot is stagnant and unexciting. </b>You have now compounded this problem with another poorly conceived change. </span> In this patch, essentially, you've somehow managed to construct it so our DPS will go down, and the other melees will go up. (As they did not lose any hit chance or proc chance to benefit from our buff) On behalf of the ranger community - <u>what were you thinking?</u>

[Nulad]

I did a quick test of field points earlier, results were not at all promising:I wont put the images directly in the post as they are pretty big and will mess with the page but they do speak for themselves as to what the basic arrow changes have done as they currently stand.First up we have what I parsed on live, please note I made sure to start with a full stack of 100 arrows in the first quiver slot for each test so you can see how many arrows were used in the fight which was the training wall at the Tabernacle of Pain.<a rel="nofollow" href="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/daniel.clarke17/EQ2/fieldpoint_live.jpg" target="_blank">http://homepage.ntlworld.com/daniel...dpoint_live.jpg</a>and now test...<a rel="nofollow" href="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/daniel.clarke17/EQ2/fieldpoint-test.jpg" target="_blank">http://homepage.ntlworld.com/daniel...dpoint-test.jpg</a>

[Sinful One]

So basically i now have to pay for arrows to get less dps then the DT arrows gave me?this change is terrible, us rangers thought we had a light at the end of the tunnel, guess you was just the train....

[kartikeya]

<p>*sighs*</p><p>Again. You're nerfing us...<i>again. </i>All of this hubub, months and months and months of complaints, charts and parses and blah blah blah. I don't believe this. Please, please, please reconsider. This is ridiculous to the utmost extreme. We are NOT fine. We are in desperate need of some actual legitimate <i>beneficial </i>changes, to the point where we were cancelling in droves, and your solution is to <b><i>nerf </i></b>us? This is a fix that has been desperately needed for freaking <i>years</i>, and yet the end result may well be that rangers are worse off than they were before the fix? </p><p>Why? Why why WHY can't you for ONCE just FIX something with us without dropping half a dozen nerfs on our heads at the same time? Why can't you just do the freaking arrow fix, /test/ it, and /then/ adjust if in fact we somehow start doing insane amounts of DPS above and beyond that of any other class (newsflash: it won't happen. See: T7 and the arrow summoning bows, and why they were so desired. Not because it gave us broken amounts of DPS, but because it actually gave us the level of DPS we needed to compete). </p><p>I'm sorry that this sounds rather histrionic, and I'm well aware that this is the test server and things are liable to change. But I want to make it clear that this is bad. Baaad. I'm at the point where I just want to flail my arms around and go 'no no no, don't ever tweak us again, ever!' because every time you do we tend to end up worse off than we were to begin with, and then we get six months to a year of devs going 'la la la, you're just fine'.</p>

[mineall]

WOW thanks for the "fix". IMO just leave the arrows alone if this is what the fix is going to be.

[Solvantis]

Are you kidding? this is such BS..... Get a clue aeralik.. this isnt better in ANY way.......... tell me HOW it is better? seriously.. with a straight face.... try not to giggle...

[Rodahn]

Well nothing is finalized yet, so I'm going to wait and see, but I am keeping my account in canceled stage still.These initial reports are not promising so far.

[Sydares]

<cite>No kidding.</cite>

[Dreyco]

They modded the way arrows worked.They modded your abilities.Don't post your /weapon.Get a group, test your DPS.  This isn't a nerf, it's a boost.Try this:Parse your numbers in a group instance in Test.  Do your best.Parse your numbers in a group instance on Live.  Do your best.Compare the numbers.There should be a slight increase.If there isn't? Well, then come back here and provide data, and they can tweak it while it's still on test.But whining over a /weapon when they probably had to do it to keep balance with the boost that was given to several of the abilities? It isn't going to provide them the feedback they need to actually get this to live in a state that HELPS you guys.(And before you say anything, I played a ranger, and was equally as dismayed about their status.)

[Morrias]

<p> Just cuz I have a bad feeling bout the replies what I wrote was going to receive, I decided to be all serious..</p><p> The change was just made, give Aeralik time to iron out the minor things! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Sydares]

<cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote>They modded the way arrows worked.They modded your abilities.Don't post your /weapon.Get a group, test your DPS.  This isn't a nerf, it's a boost.Try this:Parse your numbers in a group instance in Test.  Do your best.Parse your numbers in a group instance on Live.  Do your best.Compare the numbers.There should be a slight increase.If there isn't? Well, then come back here and provide data, and they can tweak it while it's still on test.But whining over a /weapon when they probably had to do it to keep balance with the boost that was given to several of the abilities? It isn't going to provide them the feedback they need to actually get this to live in a state that HELPS you guys.(And before you say anything, I played a ranger, and was equally as dismayed about their status.)</blockquote>You're pretty much wrong.

[kartikeya]

<cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote>They modded the way arrows worked.They modded your abilities.Don't post your /weapon.Get a group, test your DPS.  This isn't a nerf, it's a boost.Try this:Parse your numbers in a group instance in Test.  Do your best.Parse your numbers in a group instance on Live.  Do your best.Compare the numbers.There should be a slight increase.If there isn't? Well, then come back here and provide data, and they can tweak it while it's still on test.But whining over a /weapon when they probably had to do it to keep balance with the boost that was given to several of the abilities? It isn't going to provide them the feedback they need to actually get this to live in a state that HELPS you guys.(And before you say anything, I played a ranger, and was equally as dismayed about their status.)</blockquote><p>It's not the /weapon. It's the frillion little nerfs that got tacked onto this 'fix' that are so aggravating. Yes, arrow level is now fixed. This is very good. BUT, in order to get this fix, they nerf our procs, and our hitrates, two /huge/ factors in ranger DPS. We got a boost to a few CA's and our offensive stance proc...a boost of 50 damage. And we got the focus aim change, which is great, except again we just paid for being able to boost other scouts' damage by getting our damage nerfed. </p><p>And of course, as I said, this is test server, things can change. Unfortunately, past experience tells us that if it hits test, it almost always, always, always hits live just as it was on test. This is why it's important for us to go whoa no BAD right now, rather than 'wait and see'. Because once it hits live, getting a beneficial change is like pulling teeth with greasy chopsticks.</p>

[Boramyr]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>The whole idea from the start was to give rangers a proper mechanic for arrows and ranged weapons.  From a dps perspective rangers were doing well beforehand so to up the current damage for the level 80 items wasn't going to work.  Using those as a baseline, I kept their damage the same but now you have the arrow scaling problem fixed.  This in turn had some effect on lower level items but a level 74 bow like the RSB shouldnt be outdamaging the fabled epic anyways. I know its not exactly what you wanted from the fix but the gain you would have had would have put you far beyond any class.</blockquote><p>There is a major flaw in your logic ther Aeralik. I would accept that the change was to not give us more overall dps if that was the case but lets look at the numbersRight nowOn Live with my best weapon combo my /weapon is 898-3209On Test with my best weapon combo my /weapon is 779-2790And I loose 5% to hit and I have to pay 6sp per autoattack shot (less 20% proc to not use an arrow)</p><p>Thats not the SAME dps is LESS alot LESS.  And honestly we talk like this is a ranger issue, but it does affect everyone that ever uses a bow when they use a bow.  It just affects rangers more because we use a bow the most.  I'd rather have a broken mechanic if the fix is a kick in the teeth.Better yet I'd rather have a fix that IS A FIX.<edited for the price of arrows></p>

[Shaulin Dolamite]

<cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote>They modded the way arrows worked.They modded your abilities.<b><i>Don't post your /weapon.</i></b>Get a group, test your DPS.  This isn't a nerf, it's a boost.Try this:Parse your numbers in a group instance in Test.  Do your best.Parse your numbers in a group instance on Live.  Do your best.Compare the numbers.There should be a slight increase.If there isn't? Well, then come back here and provide data, and they can tweak it while it's still on test.But whining over a /weapon when they probably had to do it to keep balance with the boost that was given to several of the abilities? It isn't going to provide them the feedback they need to actually get this to live in a state that HELPS you guys.(And before you say anything, I played a ranger, and was equally as dismayed about their status.)</blockquote><p>/weapon is a direct number showing your damage potential. If on live servers /weapon shows a higher number with a lvl 70 bow then /weapon on test with our higher lvl epic then we will do less damage. Thats why there is a /weapon command : P wow</p>

[Dreyco]

<cite>kartikeya wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote>They modded the way arrows worked.They modded your abilities.Don't post your /weapon.Get a group, test your DPS.  This isn't a nerf, it's a boost.Try this:Parse your numbers in a group instance in Test.  Do your best.Parse your numbers in a group instance on Live.  Do your best.Compare the numbers.There should be a slight increase.If there isn't? Well, then come back here and provide data, and they can tweak it while it's still on test.But whining over a /weapon when they probably had to do it to keep balance with the boost that was given to several of the abilities? It isn't going to provide them the feedback they need to actually get this to live in a state that HELPS you guys.(And before you say anything, I played a ranger, and was equally as dismayed about their status.)</blockquote><p>It's not the /weapon. It's the frillion little nerfs that got tacked onto this 'fix' that are so aggravating. Yes, arrow level is now fixed. This is very good. BUT, in order to get this fix, they nerf our procs, and our hitrates, two /huge/ factors in ranger DPS. We got a boost to a few CA's and our offensive stance proc...a boost of 50 damage. And we got the focus aim change, which is great, except again we just paid for being able to boost other scouts' damage by getting our damage nerfed. </p><p>And of course, as I said, this is test server, things can change. Unfortunately, past experience tells us that if it hits test, it almost always, always, always hits live just as it was on test. This is why it's important for us to go whoa no BAD right now, rather than 'wait and see'. Because once it hits live, getting a beneficial change is like pulling teeth with greasy chopsticks.</p></blockquote>Your accuracy was not nerfed.  In fact, they gave all classes a boost to accuracy against orange con mobs.And are you talking about the normalized proc rates?Regardless of their history, get out there and test it.  Just coming here and whining about it hoping it won't make it to live won't make any difference in the world.  Your ranged combat art reuse timers were lowered, and a lot of other goodies were given to rangers.  The normalized proc rate was probably to compensate for that, being you're now going to proc a ~Lot~ more.  Crying foul without numbers? Doesn't give them any information.

[Azrael_888]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>The whole idea from the start was to give rangers a proper mechanic for arrows and ranged weapons.  From a dps perspective rangers were doing well beforehand so to up the current damage for the level 80 items wasn't going to work.  Using those as a baseline, I kept their damage the same but now you have the arrow scaling problem fixed.  This in turn had some effect on lower level items but a level 74 bow like the RSB shouldnt be outdamaging the fabled epic anyways. I know its not exactly what you wanted from the fix but the gain you would have had would have put you far beyond any class.</blockquote>will repost later...

[Sinful One]

i thought we procced more having a 9 second proc rate? as it had a 60% or something chance to proc due to less attacks?now with a 5.33 delay norminization we only have 30% or something per hit? that seems pretty heavyEDIT fixed dumb spelling mistake

[Boramyr]

<cite>Miri@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>i thought we procced more having a 9 second proc rate? as it had a 60% or something chance to proc due to less attacks?now with a 5.33 delay bow we only have 30% or something per hit? that seems pretty heavy</blockquote><p>I haven't tested this mechanic but the math says it like this:</p><p>On live:</p><p>Item X procs 2.0 times per minute normalized to 3 second delay with a 9 second delay weapon this becomes 6times per minute applying 100% haste to the weapon makes it proc 12 times per minute.   Say its a weapon proc for 500 damage that translates into 100dps</p><p>On Test:</p><p>Item X procs  2.0 times per minute normalized to 3 second delay with a 9 second delay wepon this caps at 5.33 delay for the math giving it. a ~3.5 procs per minute and then applying 100% haste makes it proc 7 procs per minute and if we use the same 500 damage proc it translates into 58dps.  Seems like not a lot untill you add up all the different procs and realize 2.0ppm and 500 is low for some of our important abilites.</p><p>I just realized this is a global mechanic too not just a ranger nerf, again though its just my class that is kicked the hardest because of it.  </p>

[Sinful One]

thanks for clearing that one up.Any other ranged classes seen how much of a differance they have got changed? sure rangers arnt the only ones hit.

[Nulad]

<cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Your accuracy was not nerfed.  In fact, they gave all classes a boost to accuracy against orange con mobs.And are you talking about the normalized proc rates?Regardless of their history, get out there and test it.  Just coming here and whining about it hoping it won't make it to live won't make any difference in the world.  Your ranged combat art reuse timers were lowered, and a lot of other goodies were given to rangers.  The normalized proc rate was probably to compensate for that, being you're now going to proc a ~Lot~ more.  Crying foul without numbers? Doesn't give them any information.</blockquote>Quit trolling, they were just pointing out that your information was incorrect, numbers will follow, and yes our accuracy was nerfed by way of the hit% on arrows.

[Sydares]

<cite>Nuladen@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Your accuracy was not nerfed.  In fact, they gave all classes a boost to accuracy against orange con mobs.And are you talking about the normalized proc rates?Regardless of their history, get out there and test it.  Just coming here and whining about it hoping it won't make it to live won't make any difference in the world.  Your ranged combat art reuse timers were lowered, and a lot of other goodies were given to rangers.  The normalized proc rate was probably to compensate for that, being you're now going to proc a ~Lot~ more.  Crying foul without numbers? Doesn't give them any information.</blockquote>Quit trolling, they were just pointing out that your information was incorrect, numbers will follow, and yes our accuracy was nerfed by way of the hit% on arrows.</blockquote>Quoted for truth. Kindly stop posting until you have any idea of what you're talking about.

[Erendil]

<p>I could be wrong I suppose, but I believe the proc noramlization is based on percent chance to proc, as opposed to number of procs per miniute. The distinction is important, because the normalization makes it so a weapon with 3 delay procs the same amount per minute as a weapon with a 9 delay. </p><p>so...poison procs 25^ of the time for a weapon with 3 delay. For a bow with 9 delay, it procs 75% of the time.....25%*9(bow delay)/3(normalized weapon delay)</p><p>now, the poison will proc 25%*(5.33)/3= abput 44.4%. </p><p>Works the same way with all procs., so it seriously hurts our dps.</p><p>I cant outdps the guild assassin on zonewide, and I'm the best ranger my guild has had in a year. I get close, and was hoping the changes would put me right with him.  I really think this is doing nothing but relegating us to the backup dps.</p>

[Leko]

<p>Aeralik,</p><p>Really?  This is your Fix ? Really this was the best you could do?  </p><p>Dude forget it.  Go back to your desk and raid with your guild.  Its apprent that this Dev thing just is not working for you. </p>

[Anekuh]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>The whole idea from the start was to give rangers a proper mechanic for arrows and ranged weapons.  From a dps perspective rangers were doing well beforehand so to up the current damage for the level 80 items wasn't going to work.  Using those as a baseline, I kept their damage the same but now you have the arrow scaling problem fixed.  This in turn had some effect on lower level items but a level 74 bow like the RSB shouldnt be outdamaging the fabled epic anyways. I know its not exactly what you wanted from the fix but the gain you would have had would have put you far beyond any class.</blockquote><p>First, how can you say we are doing well before hand when our other "brother" class (Assassins) are doing way beyond dps damage than us?? Assassins pretty much dominate the dps parse while the rest of us (including us Rangers) are way below. I'm figuring we should be "close" to Assassin, but that is a far cry imho. </p><p>It appears you have not fix anything, but actually put us down a notch. Still worthless to a raid. God know we need another nerf. You might as well just get rid of the class period. </p><p>I really wish you or someone could post raid dsp parses and prove to me that rangers are neck and neck with asassins. /please</p>

[Sydares]

It's kind of funny, in a way....We lose proc rate.We lose 20% to hit from our arrows...And we gain 30% to hit for 15 seconds out of every minute. So we traded consistent hit rates for some streaky thing that for us only puts us at best at +10% higher than we were, and for everyone else puts them +30% higher than they were, and they don't have to deal with the -20% for the rest of the fight like we do.Anyone else smell Assassin Buff? <b>™</b>Well played, Aeralik. Well played.

[Rapidy]

<cite>Sydares wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's kind of funny, in a way....We lose proc rate.We lose 20% to hit from our arrows...And we gain 30% to hit for 15 seconds out of every minute. So we traded consistent hit rates for some streaky thing that for us only puts us at best at +10% higher than we were, and for everyone else puts them +30% higher than they were, and they don't have to deal with the -20% for the rest of the fight like we do.Anyone else smell Assassin Buff? <b>™</b>Well played, Aeralik. Well played.</blockquote>We dont get the buff, others do...

[Anekuh]

<cite>Sydares wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's kind of funny, in a way....We lose proc rate.We lose 20% to hit from our arrows...And we gain 30% to hit for 15 seconds out of every minute. So we traded consistent hit rates for some streaky thing that for us only puts us at best at +10% higher than we were, and for everyone else puts them +30% higher than they were, and they don't have to deal with the -20% for the rest of the fight like we do.Anyone else smell Assassin Buff? <b>™</b>Well played, Aeralik. Well played.</blockquote>Yeah. We just became a bit_ch class to every other scout class. Thxs allot.

[Sydares]

<cite>Rapidy wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sydares wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's kind of funny, in a way....We lose proc rate.We lose 20% to hit from our arrows...And we gain 30% to hit for 15 seconds out of every minute. So we traded consistent hit rates for some streaky thing that for us only puts us at best at +10% higher than we were, and for everyone else puts them +30% higher than they were, and they don't have to deal with the -20% for the rest of the fight like we do.Anyone else smell Assassin Buff? <b>™</b>Well played, Aeralik. Well played.</blockquote>We dont get the buff, others do... </blockquote>We do, too.Group's melee attacks have an accuracy boost of 25% (Thought this was 30. So it makes it even more laughable.)Increases crushing of group by 127.Increases slashing of group by 127 (If not a ranger)Increases piercing of group by 127 (If not a ranger.)Still doesn't change the fact that it's pathetic for us due to the arrow nerf.

[Kabahl]

<p>Check your ACTUAL weapon delay, self buffed.  I was talking to a ranger in my guild, and with his epic, his self-buffed weapon delay is 5.9.  Yes, it IS a bit of a nerf, but not as much as it may seem.  And remember, that's SELF buffed.  In raids, he's gonna have more haste cast on him (not to mention the occasional honed reflexes) which will lower the actual delay even more.  </p><p>WHY 5.33 was chosen?  No clue.  Why not 6.0?   ::shrug::  But I'm HOPING they are going by people's ACTUAL average weapon delay after average haste buffs, items, etc. etc. and not the LISTED delay of the weapon.  </p><p>If that's not the case then . . . Sorry Rangers.</p><p> - Charn</p>

[Boramyr]

<p>Nope, normalization never took haste into account.  But again there is only one class that consistantly uses weapons over a 4 second delay. And our "dps was fine" before the changes.  </p><p> Fine is aparently Aeralik speak for needing to be nerfed.  </p>

[lilmohi]

If you are going to cap the delay normalization you need to cap the max delay on bows to equal the cap. And no rangers were not where they are meant to be on the dps charts. Even fighting mobs with ae stuns that i can avoid by staying at range i'm still averaging much less dps than some of the other melee classes in the raid. i'm not talking 200 dps less i'm talking 1k dps less. on mobs that don't have an ae that requires jousting the buiser and assassin can nearly double my dps. While i may not be in the best raiding guild, i have been getting a large number of the upgrades.

[redde]

<cite>Sydares wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rapidy wrote:</cite>We do, too.Group's melee attacks have an accuracy boost of 25% (Thought this was 30. So it makes it even more laughable.)Increases crushing of group by 127.Increases slashing of group by 127 (If not a ranger)Increases piercing of group by 127 (If not a ranger.)Still doesn't change the fact that it's pathetic for us due to the arrow nerf.</blockquote>So what's your crushing at currently? Check your persona window and go to skills. That's right, it's not there! That's because as a ranger you can't use crushing weapons, so there's no need to add a restriction.Overall, the changes suck at the minute, IMO, and <b>I don't even play a ranger.</b>The GOOD side of the patch is the utility fix so that rangers now have some kind of group function.Everything else is pretty much a straight nerf, which really wasn't needed. Rangers IMO should be parsing just under assasins [EDIT: with similar gear and buffs*](beneath <b>slightly</b> as they are able to deal the majority of their damage from range), and they should be up there near the wizzies. When we see some more detailed parses it will become obvious how much of a nerf this is. It's going to be hard to accurately replicate on the 2 servers, but it is pretty obivous to most. <b>This is a nerf, when what was really required was a boost. </b>I can't understand why any rangers would stay rangers if this goes live. I certainly wouldn't.*<i> I don't care of rangerx in your guild is beating assassinx on the parse every time if assassinx is in a group of 5 pallies, and the ranger has every buff under the sun.</i>

[Shaulin Dolamite]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>The whole idea from the start was to give rangers a proper mechanic for arrows and ranged weapons.  From a dps perspective rangers were doing well beforehand so to up the current damage for the level 80 items wasn't going to work.  Using those as a baseline, I kept their damage the same but now you have the arrow scaling problem fixed.  This in turn had some effect on lower level items but a level 74 bow like the RSB shouldnt be outdamaging the fabled epic anyways. I know its not exactly what you wanted from the fix but the gain you would have had would have put you far beyond any class.</blockquote>Ive been thinking of a way to respond to this since i got home from work.....All i could come up with after seeing the first numbers comming back from rangers on test.........REALLY......REALLY?? this is how you fix our issues?

[Erendil]

<blockquote>Rangers IMO should be parsing just under assasins [EDIT: with similar gear and buffs*](beneath <b>slightly</b> as they are able to deal the majority of their damage from range), and they should be up there near the wizzies. </blockquote><p>If that's your benchmark, rangers should be parsing with assassins. We do our max dps with mythical weapon, only if we are within 5 meters of the mob. Maybe this means we wont have to see this lame reason for why [Removed for Content] should outdps us anymore.</p>

[missionarymarr]

<cite>Shaulin Dolamite wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>The whole idea from the start was to give rangers a proper mechanic for arrows and ranged weapons.  From a dps perspective rangers were doing well beforehand so to up the current damage for the level 80 items wasn't going to work.  Using those as a baseline, I kept their damage the same but now you have the arrow scaling problem fixed.  This in turn had some effect on lower level items but a level 74 bow like the RSB shouldnt be outdamaging the fabled epic anyways. I know its not exactly what you wanted from the fix but the gain you would have had would have put you far beyond any class.</blockquote>Ive been thinking of a way to respond to this since i got home from work.....All i could come up with after seeing the first numbers comming back from rangers on test.........REALLY......REALLY?? this is how you fix our issues?</blockquote>Sometimes I start to wonder if they know how to read what people are complaining about. For me it seemed rangers were complaining because of the arrow mechanics their DPS was to low. Seemed reasonable to me the way I read things and such it appeared that because of the arrow mechanics the level 80 bows weren't giving them the damage they deserved. Yet the DEVS seem to think that instead the lower bows were doing to much damage. I am really starting to think the DEVs to remove all the cloaks post the Data they have from live on what the dps of each class. Hopefully the complaints will make them rethink this change and make it an actual fix.

[RickAO76]

<p>A Fix !?!?  I'm getting closer and closer every day to canceling <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/c30b4198e0907b23b8246bdd52aa1c3c.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Contiously being medicore parse vs counterpart(Assasin) and Casters.  The Upcoming Group buff just seems to be another Assasin buff in the end....   I'll wait till it goes live and see though.</p><p> However, I would like to MATCH Parse's with our Guild Assasin some day (and we have gotten same group setup/buffs before to compare), and he still passes me by ALOT with comparable gear. I even have more Masters.</p>

[Boramyr]

Lets keep this thread to the facts of the changes and not start attacking Aeralik.   I don't want to see this issue get locked or ignored because it has to get personal.  Speak to the facts and ask asnwers to the facts, take the calling out elsewhere please. 

[Nam]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>The whole idea from the start was to give rangers a proper mechanic for arrows and ranged weapons.  From a dps perspective rangers were doing well beforehand so to up the current damage for the level 80 items wasn't going to work.  Using those as a baseline, I kept their damage the same but now you have the arrow scaling problem fixed.  This in turn had some effect on lower level items but a level 74 bow like the RSB shouldnt be outdamaging the fabled epic anyways. I know its not exactly what you wanted from the fix but the gain you would have had would have put you far beyond any class.</blockquote>I'm sorry what? You are so [Removed for Content] that you have to make assassins overpowered so you can parse up with your bards? Meanwhile you're ranger is doing an amazing 4 - 4.5k ZW in Kor'Sha?Wow Aeralik, don't you just admire his uber DPS. Meanwhile, assassins who can actually play their class are parsing 6-7k ZW in Kor'Sha because of your gimpness and needing to overpower your class.In response to your "fix" all i can say is [Removed for Content] you Aeralik, get a clue

[Runewind]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>The whole idea from the start was to give rangers a proper mechanic for arrows and ranged weapons.  From a dps perspective rangers were doing well beforehand so to up the current damage for the level 80 items wasn't going to work.  Using those as a baseline, I kept their damage the same but now you have the arrow scaling problem fixed.  This in turn had some effect on lower level items but a level 74 bow like the RSB shouldnt be outdamaging the fabled epic anyways. I know its not exactly what you wanted from the fix but the gain you would have had would have put you far beyond any class.</blockquote>So... You said we were just fine from a DPS perspective before hand, right? And you decided to lower bow damage as a result? Tell me how we're supposed to take that positively, Aeralik. Seriously, I don't WANT to fall into the mood that everyone else is falling into by saying you are bias or malicious. I honestly want any idea from you that would explain how I am supposed to take you lowering our auto attack damage on all of our bows in order to fix our bow damage when you said we were fine damagewise before. Please help me out here, Aeralik. Give me something.

[Kilaak]

LOLOL they didn't give us T8 DPS they nerfed our T7 stuff that was keeping us somewhat useful. I take this as a slap in the face to all rangers, and NO Arelik there are some that won't betray, we'll just quit.

[Aeralik]

My test character showed a slight gain to auto attack when I was testing this with the ranger epic.  I expected Rigid Scale bow to take a little hit but the epic shouldn't be any less with the same ammo.  I'll look into why its lower on Monday.

[RickAO76]

<p>Ranger Feedback is anything, but postive and yet I swear there won't be no change from TEST to LIVE<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/1069449046bcd664c21db15b1dfedaee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p> Though I really hope it does get changed ....</p><p>--------------------------</p><p>Well <b>Aeralik </b>posted while I was posting the above message so I'll edit to say, well least he's looking into it.</p>

[Nam]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>My test character showed a slight gain to auto attack when I was testing this with the ranger epic.  I expected Rigid Scale bow to take a little hit but the epic shouldn't be any less with the same ammo.  I'll look into why its lower on Monday.</blockquote>So, what you're saying is, Eagle's Talon with the new level 70 arrows, shouldn't be less damage than currently with the level 67's? But it shouldn't be any higher either? If that is the case then leave the [Removed for Content] arrows  alone and we'll all continue to use the higher damage RSB with the 67 arrows. Stop breaking [Removed for Content] you nub

[Kilaak]

What he said is, he nerfed the RSB to not do more damage the the fabled epic.

[Shaulin Dolamite]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>My test character showed a slight gain to auto attack when I was testing this with the ranger epic.  I expected Rigid Scale bow to take a little hit but the epic shouldn't be any less with the same ammo.  I'll look into why its lower on Monday.</blockquote>So are you saying that our Epics shouldnt upgrade out damage to what RSB did before we got nerfed?? Every other melee scount got huge dps gains with T8, rangers get shafted with arrow mechanics and are forced to use T7 bows for 5 months. Then you all deside to fix this by fixing arrows and nerfing our dps so in the end our epics give us the same output as our T7 bows.THANKS, really thank please next time just do nothing!

[Mithren_Nexus]

I had to Edit my own last post cause i wrote in anger instead of having a think about what to say. Aeralik mate i know it cant be easy being a dev, people are gunna whinge and [Removed for Content] at you with whatever you do, but the ranger classes mechanics are horrible currently, even with concealment and the plus to dmg on our epic bow for being in close, it just doesnt work, this fix thats going in now really needs to be spot on otherwise your going to find SoE starts to lose either a) customers, which i know it doesnt want or b) the ranger class as a whole becasue ppl will simply stop playing them, now i consider myself to know my class very well, but i cant get near our new sas, and shes only been raiding with us a week, and not even been in all the zones we've taken her to. We need to be taken to on par with assassin mate really, i hit 6k on good parses, our assin is on 7.5k, our gear is comparable for our classes, our epic's and mechanic's however are not, take the time to do this fix right or people are going to leave, its thats simple. Thx mate i know its really hard.

[Runewind]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>My test character showed a slight gain to auto attack when I was testing this with the ranger epic.  I expected Rigid Scale bow to take a little hit but the epic shouldn't be any less with the same ammo.  I'll look into why its lower on Monday.</blockquote>Okay so something is broken that shouldn't be? and the RSB has probably taken a much larger hit than you wanted it to if you were looking for it to take a "little" hit. At the very least you said that Eagle's Talon should get a slight GAIN in auto attack so something is definitely wrong. For now I'll hold off being truly depressed until you look into this on Monday. But be quick with the fix to this because a lot of people won't be as patient as me.

[Lolianna]

I should have known better than to get excited about ranger's getting fixed. Anyone else have a sinking feeling in the pit of their stomach?

[Erendil]

<p>And why did procs need to be changed? Everyone had the same proc rate based on normalized damage. if someone had a weapon with a 3 delay, it procced as many times per minute as a weapon with a 9 delay.  Why should we be penalized with proc rates because we have a long delay weapon?? </p>

[FearDiadh]

<p>I compared ET and Star Darkened on test and live tonight and looked at the weapon ratings.  Eagle talon took a tiny hit in damage with field point (top end went from 3115 to 3072 at 742 str)  and a massive hit with umbral darknesses (top end went from 3154 to 2473 at 742 str).  So umbrals are effectively out the window when this goes live forcing me to start paying for player crafted.... for less dps...</p><p> My Star Darkened does not fare so well.  It took a massive hit with both ferrite and umbrals.  With umbrals on live the top end was 3620 and on test it is 3066 with 730 str.  With Ferrites it was 3581 on live but only 3035 on test with 730 str.  </p><p>What this means is less damage period.  The epic can not put out the damage the t7 fableds were putting out before.  The epic recieved no increase at all, was slightly nerfed and will now require me to spend money to be almost as good as it was.  The Star Darkened will lose a ton of dps so the eagle talon will be able to compete with it.  So... you nerfed them both but nerfed the Star Darkened more so we scale?  How the hell does that help us exactly?  You just took my only way of competing away from me.  My t8 bows were far weaker than my counterparts t8 melee weapons so I was forced to use t7 bows.  Now the t8 bows still suck but to make sure there is progression the t7 bows will be lowered to below t7?</p><p>My offensive proc increased by about 50 damage but to offset that my poisons now proc about 50% less with the changes to procs.  Well I guess that will save me money on poisons and I can use that to buy arrows but uhm... again you lowered my dps.  I didn't see any real huge gains in combat art damage if any and frankly they only constitute about 40% of my dps so Im not going to bother even going back to look and see if they got a 5 or 10% increase because it won't matter will it?  That gain will be completely wiped out by the loss of the poison procs.</p><p>I've suffered through nerf after nerf after nerf without complaining.  I just said 'it is ok,' to my fellow rangers and, 'don't sweat it we will be ok,' but you know... I need someone to tell me this time because I feel burned here.  I see you plan to look into it Monday and I certainly hope you do but you are wrong in one regard so I don't expect much.  You said rangers were ok on dps and I disagree.  Solo they need no boost.  Groups they need no boost but for t8 raids there is a problem and they needed a boost.  If you do not see the problem I have no hope you will fix it.  </p>

[Eldrie]

/weaponstats numbers from live and test. Test numbers are all with 604 STR, live numbers are with 609 STR (food, whoops). I just used the merchant-purchased ammo for everything because I didn't think to /testcopy with ferrite ammo.eagle's talon, test server, no ammo: 655-2620eagle's talon, test server, T8 ammo: 752-2717 (+97 pierce)eagle's talon, live server, no ammo: 847-3387eagle's talon, live server, T8 ammo: 750-2760 (+80 pierce)trueshot recurve, test server, no ammo: 536-2144trueshot recurve, test server, T8 ammo: 633-2241 (+97 pierce)trueshot recurve, live server, no ammo: 693-2771 trueshot recurve, live server, T8 ammo: 621-2243 (+80 pierce)**RSB has a 10 dps adornment- again, didn't think far enough ahead when doing /testcopy, so apologies for thatRSB, test server, no ammo: 690-2759RSB, test server, T7 ammo: 770-2839 (+80 pierce)RSB, test server, T8 ammo: 777-2846 (+97 pierce)RSB, live server, no ammo: 892-3566RSB, live server, T7 ammo: 750-2799 (+67 pierce)RSB, live server, T8 ammo: 901-3366 (+80 pierce)I sincerely hope that these are not the intended changes because frankly, they make no sense.

[Rapidy]

Aeralik once again proves that he has no clue about ranger class and everything that hes doing with it. But proc nerf is just unbelievable it was so uncalled for, since melee hit way more often and with 4s delay weapons they almost at max % to trigger it with changes so we are again beating the dust. Aeralik are you that bad at assassin that you have to nerf ranger every single patch?

[lilmohi]

<cite>Erendil wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>And why did procs need to be changed? Everyone had the same proc rate based on normalized damage. if someone had a weapon with a 3 delay, it procced as many times per minute as a weapon with a 9 delay.  Why should we be penalized with proc rates because we have a long delay weapon?? </p></blockquote><p>i'm not going to fuss over the autoattack changes since it should be a wash if you have a t8 bow with the upgraded stance.  However the proc nerf is rediculous we were already not only normalized but excluded from a huge list of group buffs that added procs.  Now i see that there was ranged added to some group buffs but that's still just a drop in the bucket and by no means makes up for the reduced proc rate.</p><p>Seriously put the proc rates back, finish adding ranged to the rest of the melee proc buffs and redo the itemiziation so ranger gear is equivalent to other scout gear and i think we'll be doing fine.</p>

[acctlc]

Did anyone notice rangers now benefit from CoB and MC strength rings now? Before you all get your panties in a bunch isn't it possible you're going to fall in line more with Assasins once the combination of all changes go through?  

[Hedah]

Small Idea here.. Why not give the Ranger Mythical version the same effect as the Dirge Mythical?I.E.: Focus Aim Effects the entire raid and increase the duration to 20 seconds with the Mythical.Thoughts?EDIT: 5 more seconds on Focus Aim will give us what.. 1 more autoattack maybe 2 if you time it perfectly.-Hedah

[Hedah]

And for the sake of your arguement. Aeralik, why not even out the arrow/bow conflict on test server, that is to say, remove the level restriction bias on bows and arrows just to show us how overpowered we actually would be if we didn't have those restrictions.Showing us that we truely would be overpowered is the fastest way to stop the arguements about it and get down to some real ideas for the ranger class.Because no one believes you when you say that doing so would unbalance the class issues. And they are justified in saying so. Prove us wrong with raw data and we'll shut up. -Hedah

[Nulad]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>My test character showed a slight gain to auto attack when I was testing this with the ranger epic.  I expected Rigid Scale bow to take a little hit but the epic shouldn't be any less with the same ammo.  I'll look into why its lower on Monday.</blockquote>same ammo? what same ammo? you nerfed it.

[jjlo69]

<cite>Arieva@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Did anyone notice rangers now benefit from CoB and MC strength rings now? Before you all get your panties in a bunch isn't it possible you're going to fall in line more with Assasins once the combination of all changes go through?   </blockquote><p>i did notice but since you have not bothered to read a few post above. the 5.33 normaly proc rate will cause these wonder proc's to hardly go off; thus they threw us a useless bone imho</p><p>morzerk </p>

[Dirty Jack Rackham]

<p><span style="font-size: xx-small;">And other people are outright accusing Rangers of being a favored class of Aeralik because we were mentioned so prominently in the Preview. **shakes head in disbelief**</span></p><p><span style="font-size: xx-small;">Please favor us a bit less and actually FIX us Aeralik. </span></p>

[jjlo69]

<cite>Nuladen@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>My test character showed a slight gain to auto attack when I was testing this with the ranger epic.  I expected Rigid Scale bow to take a little hit but the epic shouldn't be any less with the same ammo.  I'll look into why its lower on Monday.</blockquote>same ammo? what same ammo? you nerfed it.</blockquote><p>QFT and heres pic from live and test to show it.. fix this soon cause as others have said most of us are not gonna betray but just stop playing altogether.  morzerk</p><p><a href="http://i29.tinypic.com/35ckggl.jpg" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://i29.tinypic.com/35ckggl.jpg</a></p>

[Anekuh]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>My test character showed a slight gain to auto attack when I was testing this with the ranger epic.  I expected Rigid Scale bow to take a little hit but the epic shouldn't be any less with the same ammo.  I'll look into why its lower on Monday.</blockquote><p>Again, you fail to see the point. Rangers are still the bottom feeders of any raid. We are still not equal to the assassin class as far as dps is concern. <---- RE-READ this line again so that it sinks in. </p><p>We are so dependant on our bows, and all you can say is there is a "slight" gain on auto attack. Whaahooo</p><p>I expect your fix on this will be worst than what we have.</p><p>FIX RANGER DPS!!!!</p>

[Sydares]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>My test character showed a slight gain to auto attack when I was testing this with the ranger epic.  I expected Rigid Scale bow to take a little hit but the epic shouldn't be any less with the same ammo.  I'll look into why its lower on Monday.</blockquote>No. Honestly? That's not good enough. You're still ignoring our feedback, and as you can tell by the sheer volume of this thread, which is limited primarily to only the rangers who have bothered to be proactive enough to testcopy over and test them out, <b>we are extremely unhappy with these changes, because they not only offer us no benefit, but they numerically ensure that our DPS will drop against anything that isn't orange con.</b>We asked for one. Simple. Thing. Make our arrows scale, because our DPS is hurting. Whether or not it's your Veeshan's Peak raiding opinion that we're hurting or not, we are consistently out-DPSed by assassins and every caster under the sun, even on yellow con mobs. When all we do is DPS, if we can't compete with the 4.6-5k that necromancers especially can pump out raidwide, guess what? <b>It starts looking awfully appealing to not bring us, in favor of another mage.</b>Bottom line? We needed a DPS <b>boost</b>. You addressed the orange-con issue, but that helps absolutely no one but the very bleeding edge raiding guilds. (Ie; Yours. Imagine that.)This is beyond insulting. You want to do this right? Here's where you start.<ul><li>Undo the accuracy nerf to our ammunition. This was completely not needed.</li></ul><ul><li>Undo the normalization to our procs. This was also completely not needed, and hurts our DPS even more.</li></ul><ul><li>Scale our ammunition <b>UP</b> to our bows, so it's <b>actually an upgrade to equip a level 80 fabled over a level 70 fabled instead of having us stagnate for an entire expansion </b>(I know this one might be hard for you to grasp, but try to follow me on it. When you get to watch all your friends get massive gear upgrades to their weapons constantly, and you help them do their epic quests, and bust your butt to do your own, maybe. <i>Just. Maybe.</i> It's a little bit insulting to have your weapon equate to the weapon you've been using to level up to 80 with, because that's essentially what's going on here. <b>We have no bow UPGRADE at this point in time over RSB except for our MYTHICAL which few will ever see. How is that right? </b>Do you not understand the frustration associated with that? No? I guess you wouldn't. You do have the best mythical in the game, after all, imagine that.</li></ul><ul><li>Focus Aim is fine. Thanks for that.</li></ul>But honestly? If you can't meet these points? I'd really rather you just not even bother 'fixing' us, as my DPS drops substantially. It doesn't take any sort of genius to figure into...-20% chance to hit. ~-33% to proc, DAMAGE STAYS THE SAME = Huh. I'm doing a boatload less damage. <b>But it's okay, because now I can buff up my assassin!</b>This is absurdity at its finest. Fix us right or don't touch us, dammit.

[Anekuh]

<cite>Sydares wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>My test character showed a slight gain to auto attack when I was testing this with the ranger epic.  I expected Rigid Scale bow to take a little hit but the epic shouldn't be any less with the same ammo.  I'll look into why its lower on Monday.</blockquote>No. Honestly? That's not good enough. You're still ignoring our feedback, and as you can tell by the sheer volume of this thread, which is limited primarily to only the rangers who have bothered to be proactive enough to testcopy over and test them out, <b>we are extremely unhappy with these changes, because they not only offer us no benefit, but they numerically ensure that our DPS will drop against anything that isn't orange con.</b>We asked for one. Simple. Thing. Make our arrows scale, because our DPS is hurting. Whether or not it's your Veeshan's Peak raiding opinion that we're hurting or not, we are consistently out-DPSed by assassins and every caster under the sun, even on yellow con mobs. When all we do is DPS, if we can't compete with the 4.6-5k that necromancers especially can pump out raidwide, guess what? <b>It starts looking awfully appealing to not bring us, in favor of another mage.</b>Bottom line? We needed a DPS <b>boost</b>. You addressed the orange-con issue, but that helps absolutely no one but the very bleeding edge raiding guilds. (Ie; Yours. Imagine that.)This is beyond insulting. You want to do this right? Here's where you start.<ul><li>Undo the accuracy nerf to our ammunition. This was completely not needed.</li></ul><ul><li>Undo the normalization to our procs. This was also completely not needed, and hurts our DPS even more.</li></ul><ul><li>Scale our ammunition <b>UP</b> to our bows, so it's <b>actually an upgrade to equip a level 80 fabled over a level 70 fabled instead of having us stagnate for an entire expansion </b>(I know this one might be hard for you to grasp, but try to follow me on it. When you get to watch all your friends get massive gear upgrades to their weapons constantly, and you help them do their epic quests, and bust your butt to do your own, maybe. <i>Just. Maybe.</i> It's a little bit insulting to have your weapon equate to the weapon you've been using to level up to 80 with, because that's essentially what's going on here. <b>We have no bow UPGRADE at this point in time over RSB except for our MYTHICAL which few will ever see. How is that right? </b>Do you not understand the frustration associated with that? No? I guess you wouldn't. You do have the best mythical in the game, after all, imagine that.</li></ul><ul><li>Focus Aim is fine. Thanks for that.</li></ul>But honestly? If you can't meet these points? I'd really rather you just not even bother 'fixing' us, as my DPS drops substantially. It doesn't take any sort of genius to figure into...-20% chance to hit. ~-33% to proc, DAMAGE STAYS THE SAME = Huh. I'm doing a boatload less damage. <b>But it's okay, because now I can buff up my assassin!</b>This is absurdity at its finest. Fix us right or don't touch us, dammit.</blockquote><p>Great point Sydares on most rangers will never see Mythical. Guess Aeralik thinks all guilds will be "farming" VP since 4 bows come from that zone while just one bow comes from tiers 1 thru 3 (Voldrath). Thanks again Aeralik.</p>

[Echgar]

While I do understand that some of you are very passionate about these changes and I do see some great discussion here, I also see a couple of posts that aren't as helpful to the discussion.Remember folks -- this forum is the <b>In Testing Feedback</b> Forum!  It isn't live yet!  Constructive discussion and even friendly debate helps the developers mold what will eventually get pushed to the live servers (or maybe never!)  Please keep the focus on the changes being discussed.

[Poison-X]

Not that its going to magiclly fix arrows.. but when you copy to the test server none of your buffs are actually up [yes they show up in the maintained or whatever but they really arent active] so be sure to rebuff everything.

[Anekuh]

<p>It is personal. And I have every right to post my feelings.</p><p>These changings hurt the Ranger community. This is a fact. Look at the responses.</p><p>Someone needs to be held accountable since every ranger here is complaining. I rather have a producer or someone higher up explain to the ranger community why our class is horrible in comparison to other classes like Assassins. It seems Aeralik disagrees and he is wrong.</p><p>Thxs btw for removing my last post. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Erendil]

<cite>Arieva@Oasis wrote:</cite><blockquote>Did anyone notice rangers now benefit from CoB and MC strength rings now? Before you all get your panties in a bunch isn't it possible you're going to fall in line more with Assasins once the combination of all changes go through?   </blockquote><p>If you understood game mechanics, you would know what the problem is: All these things will affect us now, however- All Procs will happen 40% less for rangers than for anyone else. We are actually being penalized for using a slow weapon. </p><p>And to be clear for others- a 4 second delay weapon doesnt benefit an assassin more than a 3 second delay weapon would. Under the mechanics of 2+ years ago it would. But they changed all that when they wrecked rangers the first time. All weapons are currently proccing at the same rate. It is just that with this change, a bow will proc approximately 40% less (1-5.33/9)</p><p> For example, poison procs 25% of the time off of a 3sec weapon's autoattack.A 9 sec delay bow would currently proc poiison 25%*9/3=75% of the timeWith the changes 25%*5.33/3=44.4% of the time </p><p>Change = (75-44.4)/75=40.8% difference</p><p>And before anyone gets confused and says the higher % means bow is proccing more:</p><p>In 1 minute a 3 sec delay weapon hits 20 times and procs 25% or 5 timesa 9 sec delay weapon hits 6.67 times and procs 5 timeswith changes, the bow will hit 6.67 times and proc 3 times- 40% less than the 3 sec delay weapon.</p>

[Nulad]

<cite>Poisonx@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Not that its going to magiclly fix arrows.. but when you copy to the test server none of your buffs are actually up [yes they show up in the maintained or whatever but they really arent active] so be sure to rebuff everything.</blockquote>Rebuffing was the very first thing I did before my parse.

[Mithren_Nexus]

<p>OK guys im really upset/[Removed for Content] also, but think we need to tone it down slightly and ask nicely if Aeralik could possibly give us some info on the auto attack dmg, proc rates and arrow hit percentages etc from his perspective. </p><p>That being said, Aeralik could you plz give us some feed back from your perspective on our auto attack dmg, i know you think our dps is ok, but are the rangas you raid with up with the sas dps as of yet? I know i personally am not, and i dont totally suck. Are all these changes going to add up and take us near sas dmg? I do realise you dont need to answer these questions mate, just thought if we could maybe see whats going on from your end it may help us all understand a bit more, thx.</p>

[Effidian]

<cite>Mithren_Nexus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>OK guys im really upset/[Removed for Content] also, but think we need to tone it down slightly and ask nicely if Aeralik could possibly give us some info on the auto attack dmg from his perspective. </p><p>That being said, Aeralik could you plz give us some feed back from your perspective on our auto attack dmg, i know you think our dps is ok, but are the rangas you raid with up with the sas dps as of yet? I know i personally am not, and i dont totally suck. Are all these changes going to add up and take us near sas dmg? I do realise you dont need to answer these questions mate, just thought if we could maybe see whats going on from your end it may help us all understand a bit more, thx.</p></blockquote><p>I agree.  Aeralik, could you please give us the numbers/reasons you think Rangers were fine before?  I think that solo and groups we probably were fine.  But in raids, there is a problem.  What are your test numbers in a raid and what is your group setup for your test assasin and your test ranger?  I think it would go a long way if you could post a parse breakdown of what you are seeing that makes you think it is fine.</p><p>Also, I guess it would help if we know where you think we should be.  Do you see us being equivalent to Assasins for DPS?  I suppose there could be a disconnect there, if you think Assasins and Rangers should not be equivalent DPS, then when you say we are "fine" it could mean equivalent to another class you have in mind that Rangers should be equal to.</p><p>In raids, I just can't get close to our Assasin in T8, where we were pretty much tied in T7.  I'm a good 25% lower zonewide.</p>

[tibysti]

ok lets try for the 3rd time, hopefully this one wont get deleted.I agree with most of the post here that the ranger "fixes" are not on a positve scale. They hurt more than anything. Its just my 2 cents. I just wish I could convey my feelings about this topic with out fear of it being deleted or repercussions.Zigar 80 ranger

[Shaulin Dolamite]

<cite>Echgar wrote:</cite><blockquote>While I do understand that some of you are very passionate about these changes and I do see some great discussion here, I also see a couple of posts that aren't as helpful to the discussion.Remember folks -- this forum is the <b>In Testing Feedback</b> Forum!  It isn't live yet!  Constructive discussion and even friendly debate helps the developers mold what will eventually get pushed to the live servers (or maybe never!)  Please keep the focus on the changes being discussed and don't let it get <b><i>personal.</i></b></blockquote><p>Its personal to everyone in this thread, the ranger community have tried to work with Aeralik, yet he has kept the door closed to our feedback, these changes prove it. Aeralik you have some mysterious data showing only you some crazy figures rangers can put out. Help us all to understand and post where this info is comming from. All of us in this channal consistantly getting destroyed on the parses by classes you seem to think are falling below us on the parse. Please show us this info, help us to understand why you are nerfing us yet again!</p><p>I dont ever like calling anyone out when it comes to their job but really loosing faith that you understand our class.</p>

[Anekuh]

<cite>Effidian wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mithren_Nexus wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>OK guys im really upset/[Removed for Content] also, but think we need to tone it down slightly and ask nicely if Aeralik could possibly give us some info on the auto attack dmg from his perspective. </p><p>That being said, Aeralik could you plz give us some feed back from your perspective on our auto attack dmg, i know you think our dps is ok, but are the rangas you raid with up with the sas dps as of yet? I know i personally am not, and i dont totally suck. Are all these changes going to add up and take us near sas dmg? I do realise you dont need to answer these questions mate, just thought if we could maybe see whats going on from your end it may help us all understand a bit more, thx.</p></blockquote><p>I agree.  Aeralik, could you please give us the numbers/reasons you think Rangers were fine before?  I think that solo and groups we probably were fine.  But in raids, there is a problem.  What are your test numbers in a raid and what is your group setup for your test assasin and your test ranger?  I think it would go a long way if you could post a parse breakdown of what you are seeing that makes you think it is fine.</p><p>Also, I guess it would help if we know where you think we should be.  <b>Do you see us being equivalent to Assasins for DPS?  I suppose there could be a disconnect there, if you think Assasins and Rangers should not be equivalent DPS, then when you say we are "fine" it could mean equivalent to another class you have in mind that Rangers should be equal to.</b></p><p>In raids, I just can't get close to our Assasin in T8, where we were pretty much tied in T7.  I'm a good 25% lower zonewide.</p></blockquote><p>Good question there. I doubt he will answer that since that question has been asked a thousand times already. </p><p>First, if he thinks we are on equal terms with Assassins, then I want what he is smoking. There is no way we are close to assassin's dps. Not even.</p><p>Second, if Aeralik says we should not be equal to assassins, then the ranger class itself needs to be overhaul. If we are not top end (scout) dps, then what are we?? We have no utility at all and no intelligent raid leader will ever have us in a raid. </p><p>I just have no clue what Aerlik thinks of our class. What's our purpose? Are we dps? Are we middle ground dps?</p>

[Mithren_Nexus]

As the other Pred dps class we should be on equal footing dps wise with Assassins simple as that.

[Anekuh]

<cite>Mithren@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>As the other Pred dps class we should be on equal footing dps wise with Assassins simple as that.</blockquote>No kidding. That is what all rangers think right now, but we are currently not. We are not even close.

[ReficulFonwaps]

<p>I don't play a ranger, but I have 2 things to say:</p><p>1) I really feel bad for rangers, they all thought this was the fix they've been looking for, only to get kicked in the face</p><p> 2) SOE, please do NOT fix shadowknights, thank you.</p>

[RickAO76]

Aeralik PLEASE, PLEASE listen to this TREAD and do not FIX the Ranger Community this way <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Undacova]

<cite>Skibo@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>Aeralik PLEASE, PLEASE listen to this TREAD and do not FIX the Ranger Community this way <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>/nod

[DocFlareon]

Apparently reading comprehension is another thing that's broken about rangers.  The dev said that <i>Something Went Wrong</i> with the changes and that when he comes back into the office on Monday he will look into the situation.In short, stop flaming the man.  What was supposed to happen didn't, and he is going to check on it.  Now, if things are still broken on Friday, you will have every right to complain.

[Nulad]

<cite>Ekaunek@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Apparently reading comprehension is another thing that's broken about rangers.  The dev said that <i>Something Went Wrong</i> with the changes and that when he comes back into the office on Monday he will look into the situation.In short, stop flaming the man.  What was supposed to happen didn't, and he is going to check on it.  Now, if things are still broken on Friday, you will have every right to complain.</blockquote>It's your reading comprehension that is at fault, try reading the thread again and take note of all the other things that were broken in conjunction with base arrow mechanics.

[RickAO76]

<cite>Ekaunek@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Apparently reading comprehension is another thing that's broken about rangers.  The dev said that <i>Something Went Wrong</i> with the changes and that when he comes back into the office on Monday he will look into the situation.In short, stop flaming the man.  What was supposed to happen didn't, and he is going to check on it.  Now, if things are still broken on Friday, you will have every right to complain.</blockquote>There is alot more here then then the Arrow Mechanic's - When Aeralik comes back in the Office Monday and takes a look at Auto-Attack Damage - GREAT, but flaming Aeralik, I wasn't - Just don't want these changes....   I want to be Comparable to Assasin DPS !!  Heck I already have to pay for Arrows to do the damage that is under par, every other class gets FREE DPS.

[Kryntyl]

<p>I guess that I'm still at a complete and utter loss as to how this is a perceived fix..</p><p>Whenever there is a problem or issue in the game community, the players, as a whole, end up providing all of the data/parses/numbers to the devs, so that they can actually look into an issue in earnest, and come up with a fix.</p><p>Just hearing "Rangers numbers are fine according to my data" without actually providing that data, is lame.  How difficult is it to post the numbers that are being seen that say we are fine ( albeit before our incoming nerf in gu44).</p><p>Sorry Aeralik, but if your numbers say we are fine, then obviously no one in the ranger community knows how to play a ranger properly.  Please enlighten us.</p>

[Kenban]

I did not actually test how procs are working on test but when I used /weapon it still showed a 27% chance with a 9 second delay weapon. Is it possible we are reading the patch notes and assuming something when in reality something else was changed?

[Mhie]

<p><span style="color: #996633;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">I tend to keep quiet on many things however I think I would rather keep things the way they are then see this ‘fix'. Proc and arrow changes just do not come off as fixes, the buff is interesting and the hawk is a nice change but honestly I would rather stay the way I am then see this come live as it has been presented. </span></p><p><span style="color: #996633;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">I count so much on my bow, arrows and procs ..... things we have to go out and find, buy and have made in order to use my character to it's ‘best'. It is expensive to run a ranger, at least a ranger that doesn't have a summon ammo bow....still with the way things are now I get my money's worth. I really don't know of a another class that has to buy so much in order to use the class to it's fullest and please do not say our own summon arrows is up to par with crafted or bow summoned ammo. Please take a step back and look at this again, you have a lot of unhappy people, a lot of people who are worried. </span></p><p><span style="color: #996633;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">There really isn't much of a reason to invite a ranger along, only thing we bring as we are now is dps and in a raid .....well..... read the past posts to open that can of worms. This much of a ripple already and the test was just out, I think this is the wrong way to try and fix us. Return the arrows and procs, up our ammo...if not tell us why this is unreasonable? </span></p><p><span style="color: #996633;font-family: comic sans ms,sand;">Round one in testing I would say failed....lets try round two and talk to us some more in why.. what seems a simple fix to us is unable to be done, I would like to understand why so then I can try to think of another way to improve and offer feedback from a different angle.</span></p><p><span style="font-family: comic sans ms,sand;"><span style="color: #996633;">Edit: As a side note I did not see the <u><i>"Something Went Wrong"</i></u> afraid I was a bit too blindsided and for that I do apologize. Still having said that I feel there are other things that are not seen as a ‘fix' which have already been brought to light.</span></span></p>

[jrisley69]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>My test character showed a slight gain to auto attack when I was testing this with the ranger epic.  I expected Rigid Scale bow to take a little hit but the epic shouldn't be any less with the same ammo.  I'll look into why its lower on Monday.</blockquote>So far Aeralik, i have seen many people here post data.  ACT parses, proc rates, screenshots and other items to back up the claims of these "<b>SO-CALLED FIXES!?!?!?!</b>"  You come back with the above response.  Now i'm pretty sure SoE with it's millions of dollars in equipment and software probably has some better programs to assess dps, hits, proc rates etc.  How about when you post that "reply" or a future "reply" you actually include some of this data that you base the decisions on with your reply, instead of the vague and confusing response that basically says your taking the weekend off.If these fixes are what you intend, then i say <b>LEAVE US ALONE</b>.  I'd rather stick with my Star darkened and broken arrows.

[Rulnest]

<p>I feel like a kid who just had his parents wave some ice cream in front of him then eat it without even getting a taste.  I have been looking foward to finely getting a dps boost and I read the test notes I was so excited.  Please add the aprox 20% bow nerf to the notes so that everyone knows you are just nerfing rangers agian and all the pretend bonuses are just to help us get back to our previous T7 dps.  At this point I am not even sure why sony bothered to put any T8 ranger CAs or weapons.</p><p>Rulanger 80 ranger  permafrost.</p>

[Ranja]

<cite>Anekuh wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Mithren@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>As the other Pred dps class we should be on equal footing dps wise with Assassins simple as that.</blockquote>No kidding. That is what all rangers think right now, but we are currently not. We are not even close.</blockquote>I would like an answer and I think we should all demand one. Are rangers supposed to be the same as Assassins? If the answer is yes, I want him to show us data to back up the assertion that he states rangers and assassins are equal.

[Kala Asuras]

The issue isn't if the Fabled epic is doing 50 more or 50 less damage on live then it does on test (this is what Aeralik is checking).  Take a look at the bow chart Webin put together and see where the Fabled epic fell on the spectrum of damage output.  Aeralik seems to think that is where our damage should be, <b>less then what we were putting out with the T7 RSB </b>when we were already showing parse after parse of falling behind assassins and other classes.  On live now the only upgrade to our RSBs is a mythical Eagle's Tallon.  If this change goes through we will have lots more bow upgrades to RSB <b>but we will still only have the mythical epic as an upgrade to the damage we are doing now on live.  Oh, of course i'm not even talking about the 40% loss in proc damage.</b>Account created 11/8/2004 (yes the first day) and will run out 4/4/2008 (cancled)

[EasternKing]

Rangers wanted to be able to utilize the same proc buffs that melee based dps scouts use.<b>HELLO </b>...with a 9sec delay them procs would <u><b>ALWAYS</b></u> go off...which is not the case for melee scouts at all. so to allow rangers to utilize them buffs they have to do 1 of 2 things....either they took every exsisting buff in game and made it so that it was displaying 2 proc rates one for melee and one for ranged ie 10% melee and 4% ranged, they would need to do this so that they proced roughly the same amount for either proc type, b/cos of the delay factor in bows.or they reduced the proc chance by dropping the delay factor down on bows and left every single buff the same way.its not rocket science to work out, that soe were not going to recode every buff in game to have dual proc percentages listed on them. b/cos rangers would have done what they are doing now and cried there eyes out about it, b/cos the ranged proc % was lower than melee proc, and actually balanced to go off the same rate.the normalized proc rate is slightly lower than what your actual bow delay is selfbuffed. your losing NOTHING and gaining a great deal. Or you can go back and have none of the buffs you were all crying to work for rangers to not work again, leaving the system as it was and changing the buffs to be proced from ranged would have created a HUGE dps inbalance, you know and i know it, the devs know it. stop being greedy.

[Effidian]

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>Rangers wanted to be able to utilize the same proc buffs that melee based dps scouts use.<b>HELLO </b>...with a 9sec delay them procs would <u><b>ALWAYS</b></u> go off...which is not the case for melee scouts at all. so to allow rangers to utilize them buffs they have to do 1 of 2 things....either they took every exsisting buff in game and made it so that it was displaying 2 proc rates one for melee and one for ranged ie 10% melee and 4% ranged, they would need to do this so that they proced roughly the same amount for either proc type, b/cos of the delay factor in bows.or they reduced the proc chance by dropping the delay factor down on bows and left every single buff the same way.its not rocket science to work out, that soe were not going to recode every buff in game to have dual proc percentages listed on them. b/cos rangers would have done what they are doing now and cried there eyes out about it, b/cos the ranged proc % was lower than melee proc, and actually balanced to go off the same rate.the normalized proc rate is slightly lower than what your actual bow delay is selfbuffed. your losing NOTHING and gaining a great deal. Or you can go back and have none of the buffs you were all crying to work for rangers to not work again, leaving the system as it was and changing the buffs to be proced from ranged would have created a HUGE dps inbalance, you know and i know it, the devs know it. stop being greedy.</blockquote><p>You aren't factoring in the delay of the weapon.  All weapons proc the same number of times per minute if they have the same haste %.  So if they didn't nerf the procs, long delay weapons would be doing the same amount of damage with procs that all the other weapons get.  With the nerf, long delay weapons will be doing less damage with a proc than a shorter delay weapon.</p>

[EasternKing]

<cite>Effidian wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>Rangers wanted to be able to utilize the same proc buffs that melee based dps scouts use.<b>HELLO </b>...with a 9sec delay them procs would <u><b>ALWAYS</b></u> go off...which is not the case for melee scouts at all. so to allow rangers to utilize them buffs they have to do 1 of 2 things....either they took every exsisting buff in game and made it so that it was displaying 2 proc rates one for melee and one for ranged ie 10% melee and 4% ranged, they would need to do this so that they proced roughly the same amount for either proc type, b/cos of the delay factor in bows.or they reduced the proc chance by dropping the delay factor down on bows and left every single buff the same way.its not rocket science to work out, that soe were not going to recode every buff in game to have dual proc percentages listed on them. b/cos rangers would have done what they are doing now and cried there eyes out about it, b/cos the ranged proc % was lower than melee proc, and actually balanced to go off the same rate.the normalized proc rate is slightly lower than what your actual bow delay is selfbuffed. your losing NOTHING and gaining a great deal. Or you can go back and have none of the buffs you were all crying to work for rangers to not work again, leaving the system as it was and changing the buffs to be proced from ranged would have created a HUGE dps inbalance, you know and i know it, the devs know it. stop being greedy.</blockquote><p>You aren't factoring in the delay of the weapon.  All weapons proc the same number of times per minute if they have the same haste %.  So if they didn't nerf the procs, long delay weapons would be doing the same amount of damage with procs that all the other weapons get.  With the nerf, long delay weapons will be doing less damage with a proc than a shorter delay weapon.</p></blockquote>that is right on paper and wrong in reality, when i use ranged dps anything that procs will proc 99.9% of the time, that is not the case at all for my melee weapons. this has been a well known and documented FACT in eq2 ..why on earth do you think they stopped rangers using all the gear with melee procs on them ? b/cos there mechanics are bust and ranged attacks on a base 9sec delay ALWAYS proc. which is why before they fixed the issue of procing on melee attacks from ranged, rangers used every single item they could get there hands on with a melee proc, the reason was they always proced and rangers gained stupid amounts of dps from them.

[Runewind]

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Effidian wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote><b><span style="color: #ccff00;">Rangers wanted to be able to utilize the same proc buffs that melee based dps scouts use.</span></b><b>HELLO </b>...with a 9sec delay them procs would <u><b>ALWAYS</b></u> go off...which is not the case for melee scouts at all. so to allow rangers to utilize them buffs they have to do 1 of 2 things....either they took every exsisting buff in game and made it so that it was displaying 2 proc rates one for melee and one for ranged ie 10% melee and 4% ranged, they would need to do this so that they proced roughly the same amount for either proc type, b/cos of the delay factor in bows.or they reduced the proc chance by dropping the delay factor down on bows and left every single buff the same way.its not rocket science to work out, that soe were not going to recode every buff in game to have dual proc percentages listed on them. b/cos rangers would have done what they are doing now and cried there eyes out about it, b/cos the ranged proc % was lower than melee proc, and actually balanced to go off the same rate.the normalized proc rate is slightly lower than what your actual bow delay is selfbuffed. your losing NOTHING and gaining a great deal. Or you can go back and have none of the buffs you were all crying to work for rangers to not work again, leaving the system as it was and changing the buffs to be proced from ranged would have created a HUGE dps inbalance, you know and i know it, the devs know it. stop being greedy.</blockquote><p>You aren't factoring in the delay of the weapon.  All weapons proc the same number of times per minute if they have the same haste %.  So if they didn't nerf the procs, long delay weapons would be doing the same amount of damage with procs that all the other weapons get.  With the nerf, long delay weapons will be doing less damage with a proc than a shorter delay weapon.</p></blockquote>that is right on paper and wrong in reality, when i use ranged dps anything that procs will proc 99.9% of the time, that is not the case at all for my melee weapons. this has been a well known and documented FACT in eq2 ..why on earth do you think they stopped rangers using all the gear with melee procs on them ? b/cos there mechanics are bust and ranged attacks on a base 9sec delay ALWAYS proc. which is why before they fixed the issue of procing on melee attacks from ranged, rangers used every single item they could get there hands on with a melee proc, the reason was they always proced and rangers gained stupid amounts of dps from them.</blockquote><span class="postbody"><p><b>SPELLS</b></p><ul><li><i>Priest</i>Priests will receive a new level 80 spell automatically called Cure Curse.  Be on the lookout for certain encounters to have special effects that are only curable with this spell.</li><li><i>Guardian</i>Call to Arms line now includes ranged skill.</li><li><i>Templar</i>Redoubt line now includes ranged skill.</li><li><i>Wizard</i><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">The Burning Radiance line will now proc from ranged attacks.</span></b></li><li><i>Ranger</i>-The hawk will no longer break stealth.-The Focus Aim line now has a group component which buffs the groups melee weapon skills and weapon accuracy.-Improved the damage on the offensive stance proc, melee based combat arts and faster reuse ranged attacks.</li><li><i>Troubador</i>Harmonization should no longer increase the immunity of Jester's Cap.</li><li><i>Dirge</i><b><span style="color: #cc0000;">The Cacophany of Blades line will now proc from ranged attacks</span></b></li></ul>I only see two procs that we got. If we're trading proc rates for burning radiance and cacophany... I think I'll take the proc rates. Thanks.</span>

[Sydares]

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>Rangers wanted to be able to utilize the same proc buffs that melee based dps scouts use.<b>HELLO </b>...with a 9sec delay them procs would <u><b>ALWAYS</b></u> go off...which is not the case for melee scouts at all. so to allow rangers to utilize them buffs they have to do 1 of 2 things....either they took every exsisting buff in game and made it so that it was displaying 2 proc rates one for melee and one for ranged ie 10% melee and 4% ranged, they would need to do this so that they proced roughly the same amount for either proc type, b/cos of the delay factor in bows.or they reduced the proc chance by dropping the delay factor down on bows and left every single buff the same way.its not rocket science to work out, that soe were not going to recode every buff in game to have dual proc percentages listed on them. b/cos rangers would have done what they are doing now and cried there eyes out about it, b/cos the ranged proc % was lower than melee proc, and actually balanced to go off the same rate.the normalized proc rate is slightly lower than what your actual bow delay is selfbuffed. your losing NOTHING and gaining a great deal. Or you can go back and have none of the buffs you were all crying to work for rangers to not work again, leaving the system as it was and changing the buffs to be proced from ranged would have created a HUGE dps inbalance, you know and i know it, the devs know it. stop being greedy.</blockquote>You're pretty much wrong.

[Hamervelder]

You ask for arrows to be fixed, they get fixed.  You ask for some type of group buff, you get one.  And yet there are complaints and cries of "Nerf!".  I'm convinced that the lot of folks who play rangers -- or at least the ones who are most vocal here on the forums -- simply can't be placated.

[Nam]

<cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You ask for arrows to be fixed, they get fixed.  You ask for some type of group buff, you get one.  And yet there are complaints and cries of "Nerf!".  I'm convinced that the lot of folks who play rangers -- or at least the ones who are most vocal here on the forums -- simply can't be placated.</blockquote>I'm sorry, do you even know what you're talking about. The ranger community said we would rather dps than utility, but we got utility. The arrow fix you so fondly speak of atm has T8 bows doing less than what they currently are on live with the current broken mechanics. Aeralik said oops, thats my bad, they should be doing the same as they are on live atm with the new arrows. Our proc rates are being nerfed along with our auto attack damage being reduced, tell me, where is this so called "fix" you are referring to that we are crying at?

[Hukklebuk]

The 'reasoning' that always comes back is the same one they use for bards...."auto-attack dps is the same as assassins"  pretty much a cop out imosorry to see you all go through this.  if everyone is simply auto-attacking (as the claimed measure seems to be), then why give anyone CA's or spells just make it click to attack~ we all know what that would mean.the game is supposed to be fun, challenging yes, but fun also... the fun is being lost, and the challenges are being mitigated.

[Sydares]

<cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You ask for arrows to be fixed, they get fixed.  You ask for some type of group buff, you get one.  And yet there are complaints and cries of "Nerf!".  I'm convinced that the lot of folks who play rangers -- or at least the ones who are most vocal here on the forums -- simply can't be placated.</blockquote>Read the thread before hitting reply next time.

[Hamervelder]

<cite>Sydares wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You ask for arrows to be fixed, they get fixed.  You ask for some type of group buff, you get one.  And yet there are complaints and cries of "Nerf!".  I'm convinced that the lot of folks who play rangers -- or at least the ones who are most vocal here on the forums -- simply can't be placated.</blockquote>Read the thread before hitting reply next time.</blockquote>I know that you'd like to think of yourself as being witty, but you failed.  "You're pretty much wrong" is about all that you've had to say, aside from complaining.  Memo to you, I did read the thread.  And the several others on the board like it.  And I read a lot of complaining.  Was I surprised?  No.  In fact, when I read the patch notes, I told my roommate, "Rangers got arrows fixed and got a group buff.  I'll bet you $10 that the lot of them will complain about it."  I'm now $10 richer.  Thanks.

[MacDaddy62]

If you actually read the thread, you would know that the arrow 'fix' is actually a nerf.

[Shaulin Dolamite]

<cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sydares wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You ask for arrows to be fixed, they get fixed.  You ask for some type of group buff, you get one.  And yet there are complaints and cries of "Nerf!".  I'm convinced that the lot of folks who play rangers -- or at least the ones who are most vocal here on the forums -- simply can't be placated.</blockquote>Read the thread before hitting reply next time.</blockquote>I know that you'd like to think of yourself as being witty, but you failed.  "You're pretty much wrong" is about all that you've had to say, aside from complaining.  Memo to you, I did read the thread.  And the several others on the board like it.  And I read a lot of complaining.  Was I surprised?  No.  In fact, when I read the patch notes, I told my roommate, "Rangers got arrows fixed and got a group buff.  I'll bet you $10 that the lot of them will complain about it."  I'm now $10 richer.  Thanks.</blockquote>Agreed, if you so called read the thread then you would have relized that the arrow fix is putting T8 bow doing less damage then T7 bows are now on live. That isnt called a fix but a nerf. Please go troll else where.

[Huugr]

<p>A/ These changes can be hardly tested at all as they touch way too many things all at once. I can see why Aeralik didn't even test this properly (as his post says straight and clearly that he didn 't even tested his changes with a RSB equipped) : that would take a pretty long time to set up things taking into account the various changes in the various situations. So why change everything at once ? This looks like a smoke screen to me.</p><p> B/ Let' s see what seems to work :</p><p>- Hawk fix. The spell came in. Got bugged or changed (not a word on this so far). It's changed again without any comment to its first behavior. The only feedback here i can think of is : how come it took you so long to fix the fix that bugged it ?</p><p>- The added utility to Focus Aim: well, if it's free, no one will refuse it. That is not close to what i expected (i.e. adding some dps to my group is marginal, i would have prefered something usefull like in utility not dps like in not utility). But once again, IF it's free, let's say why not.</p><p> C/ Arrow fix : how is this an arrow fix ? Ok it solves one of the problem : now the bows should scale up. But all other aspects are still there. Why bow/arrow mechanic is that different from mellee attacks ? Why is there need for so many hidden mechanics, adjustments and other stuff making this aspect of the game so particular ? I will stay in your logic of no DPS boost. Why didn't you get rid of the ammo hidden stuff and adjust down the bow damage ? That seems "quite" simple and would fix things in a way that doesn't call for another change in the near future.</p><p> D/ Changes to procs : if the price to pay to have a few buffs take into account for rangers is to artificially nerf their proc rate, i don't see why you wasted your time doing it. Fix the ranged combat system, adjust bow stats accordingly and stop making it so particular that everything has to be made once for mellee and once for range. This doesn't make sense at all. What it is that rangers pay for ? Not jousting ? What rangers doesn't joust when possible, not to mention that most AE are zone-wide. Avoiding DS ? DS damages are healed by group cures so that doesn't change a bit that said ranger isn't hit, he would be healed like anyone else anyway. What else ?</p>

[T1663R]

well well,i cant belive it.so sony tells us for month that they will fiy this and then they come up with this ?the crazy thing is that this is a total nerf for my ranger.im playing on a pvp server, so the new buff for the focus aim - well i cant use it, since focus aim is completely deativatet in pvp !so basicly its just again a crazy nerf, but well if this goes live - im finished and dont see a need to player my ranger any further, we already are weaker then most melee classes at dps and yet such a big nerf.if this really goes live in this way i will cancel my ranger account.

[Ozfezza]

<p>Ok as you can see, I don't really post much, but thought I would try and speak a little for the silent majority. I apologise for the lenght of the post, but please bear with me.</p><p> My main is a Ranger, and I love playing him. I have quite a few alts, but nothing gives me the same enjoyment as sitting back and filling a mob with arrows. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/ed515dbff23a0ee3241dcc0a601c9ed6.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>I have had a sinking feeling since RoK was launched as I saw higher DPS from previous bows due to arrow mechanics. (I don't raid much and Raincaller out-dpsed almost everything I had access to)</p><p>That sinking feeling continued as I saw +melee on everything and had to search for +ranged ... but have been able to find enough to compete in groups.</p><p>But the issues that Rangers as a whole have been trying to have addressed (imho and simplified) are:</p><ol><li>T8 Bows did LESS damage due to broken arrow mechanics</li><li>The cost of arrows + poisons (x 3 active at a time) to do max DPS</li><li>Our T8 DPS (mainly due to arrow mechanics) is a joke compared to T7</li></ol><p>Now yes, this "fix" will fix issue #1.</p><p>For issue #2 - imho ppl, deal with it ! You knew of these costs when you rolled a Ranger. Now, before you flame me, pls read on ...</p><p>Issue #3 is where this all sits - a simplified request is:</p><p>My understanding is that Rangers <b>should be</b> Tier 1 (aka highest-ish) DPS, especially as they add little or nothing else to a group or raid. Aeralik if this understanding is wrong, PLEASE correct me / us.</p><p>With this in mind, all I ask is for a Ranger with similar gear / poisons / arrows to <b>AT LEAST MATCH if not be able to beat other T1 DPS</b> (that add other things to groups / raids). It should NOT be possible for a Ranger to be DPSed by every casting class and most DPS classes by 1k+ Zone-Wide.</p><p>This way, if a Ranger chooses to take a DPS hit by not using poisons / crafted arrows etc then the DPS hit is by choice (cost removed for those that can't / won't pay it)</p><p><b><span style="color: #ff0000;">So my request to you Aeralik is quite simple</span></b> - please either:</p><ol><li>correct my (our ?) assumptions above, or</li><li>fix our DPS to where we should be, or</li><li>if we are "where we should be" as far as DPS goes, PLEASE give us a hint HOW (please forgive me, but I think it is safe to say that raiding Rangers have spent the time to know how to give max DPS, yet have shown consistant falling 1k+ lower DPS than casters and 2k+ lower than our evil twins Assassins)</li></ol><p>After enjoying EQ2 for some time now the current state of my preferred class is starting to really take the fun out of this game - to the point that it is no longer fun and I would have cancelled long ago if it wasn't for the great ppl I have met in EQ2.</p><p>I know that Aeralik is busy and the current changes would probably large changes behind the scenes, but I am forced to ask - if you can't give us Rangers an answer to one of the above 3 requests then please answer this - why should we continue to pay you via our subscriptions?</p><p>I again apologise for the length of the post, and have tried my best to keep it constructive.</p><p>I eagerly await your retest on Monday Aeralik, and a reply.</p><p>Yours (hoping not to cancel my account),</p><p>Ozfezza</p><p>80 Ranger - Splitpaw</p>

[Nam]

<cite>Azleya@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Dude, you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about.  My hasted bow delay when raiding is irrelevant because guess what, haste affects melee weapons by the same % as it does bows and proc rates are always based on BASE delays/cast times (as in before haste).  To spell it out for you, this means that while my 9-second bow may be operating at a 4.5 second delay with say 100% haste (for example), a melee class' 5.33-second 1H (4 seconds*1.33 for dual wielding=5.33=new base delay) is operating at a 2.66 delay with that same 100% haste, but with these bs proc changes, we both use 5.33 seconds for our proc chance on an auto attack.  <b>How does this make any sense?</b>  And yea, rangers used lots of proc gear in DoF to inflate their dps, but that's because proc rates were broken back then.  CA's used the weapon's delay to calculate proc chance, so a ranger could cast a bow CA in 1 or 2 seconds, but the game would use the 7-second delay of the bow to calculate the proc chance of that CA.  <b>That is why ranger procs were ridiculous back then, but FFS this state of affairs ended YEARS AGO.</b>  For the love of god, if you're going to post about mechanics, at least have some decently modern understanding of them.  That was broken and was nerfed at the start of KoS (the start of another period of ranger gimpness due to not being sufficiently compensated for this nerf).  Procs proccing procs has also been nerfed.So just ask yourself this.  Do you know the game mechanics?  Do you know the history of the ranger class and why it has operated in various ways at various times?  No, you don't, so s t f u.-Azleya, Ranger and Officer of StrikeLucan D'Lere</blockquote>/cheer!!

[BigChiefJJ]

<p>Going to start out by saying that I have not tried the changes on test yet, but will begin doing so as soon as I am able to, I copied my ranger to test before I left for the weekend.</p><p>However, I would like to know how rangers were doing well beforehand.  I'm not in one of the top raiding guilds on my server and we don't raid with an optimized raid force, but we do pretty decent.  Before RoK came out my ranger was usually in the top 3 of the parse typically fighting with our summoners, wizzy or other ranger (we didn't have a full time assassin) for the top spot.  </p><p>Now RoK came out and since the parse has gone crazy - I can usually get in the top 5-8 on the parse but I'm light years behind out Brig, Assassin (when he shows up) summoners and the Bruiser getting close to me on most fights.  I am currently using a RSB with viscous globs.</p><p>If our DPS was where it was suppose to be on the last expansion then when we go up 10 levels we should see a significant upgrade to our dps, like all the other classes have seen.  Rangers were complaining that the new expansion did not provide us with any upgrade in weapons.  The basic fix here with autoattack was to make our T8 weapons do the about the same damage as our T7 raid bows did and then reduce the damage that our T7 bows did so we would have to upgrade to T8.  Lets not stop this fix for Rangers, lets implement it for all classes - lets bring the damage of all T8 weapons down to what Raid dropped T7 weapons were doing and then reduce the damage that the T7 raid weapons did.  How would every other class in the game feel if their epic weapon was simply a marginal upgrade over the gear that they were using from T7 raiding?  Honestly I have not finished my group epic yet as its not an upgrade for me, but if these changes go live the I will have to finish it just to stay where I am currently in weapon damage.  How is that Fair?</p><p>I also would like to know why there was a cap put in for weapon delay proc normalization.  What is the reasoning and logic behind this?  If you are going to have a maximum delay for proc normalization why do you have weapons in the game that have delays greater than this number? If I'm 100% hasted and firing 12 arrows per minute and our brig is attacking 22 times (main hand only, not counting double attacks) who is going to proc more if we are both using the same proc %, not to mention the offhand  weapon or the CA's that the bring will get (I know off hand weapons don't proc non-inherent effect, but they still proc DA and procs from the weapon itself).  </p><p>So to sum up the changes that affect rangers in the testing right now - bows T7 and lower had their damage potential reduced, T8 bow damage was not changed.  Focus aim now has an added group wide buff that increases the slash/crush/pierce of non-rangers of the group, the hawk does not break stealth (but still only siphons hate when it hits).  Arrow have had their hit % reduced from +30% to +10% (maybe this will make the free summoned arrows closer to the WW crafted) and some of the CA timers have been reduced (again I'm not sure to what extent this one will come into play, but since the final STR AA only affect CA's with >2min recasts, did they reduce any down to mess this up?).  Some procs were adjusted to work off of ranged items (STR ring, CoB and the wizzy proc specifically mentioned, but do all of the items that would proc from melee only attacks work from ranged now or just the three that were mentioned?</p><p>I would really like to see the rangers that were ‘doing well before hand' how were their parses compared to there guild assassins, brigs etc?  Were the ones that were ‘doing well before hand' in a group setup stacked just to maximize the Rangers dps?  What were some of the zones and parsed from these rangers vs the other raid members?</p><p>Finally a last question - I know it's a T1 zone but if we are fighting doomcoil (a single mob that nobody can avoid the AE) where should the ranger end up on the parse in comparison to the assassin, wizzy, bring, swash conj, necro? </p><p>Aerilik - thanks for posting that you will look into what we think is wrong when you get back to the office on monday, I do look forward to hearing back from you on what you find but please be as specific as you can and not just say - 'this is working just as I thought it woudl'.  Give us a bit more to go on please.  </p>

[Effidian]

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>so the ranger that posted earlier in this thread stating that bow delay was increasing proc rates to upto 12 times a min was wrong ?12 times a min = bow delay of 5.8secs one proc every 5,8secs x12 = 69.6 thats 1 proc over the max number of proc chances you get in 60sec periods..that means YOU ALWAYS PROC near enough every 6secs on a ranged attack that lands.please keep saying bow delay has nothing to do with rangers procing 99% of the time ...and please keep claiming that your actual delay when raiding has no bearing on this new normalized proc rate of 5.3secs. your going to be that close to the new normalized rate that the actual diff is going to be so minimal to be insignificant.and yes i know it was all fixed. you know why it was fixed and so do i. or are you really trying to claim to me that you dont think that leaving the mechanics the way they were but changing procs to work on ranged wouldnt relate to a huge increase in ranger dps ?but please keep posting insults swearing around the obscenity filter,at me ...really helping your cause.</blockquote>All weapons with the same haste% proc the same number of times a minute.  Go parse it and see for yourself.  Allowing rangers to use procs that currently don't proc off ranged, would basically give us the same benefit as all the melee classes for those procs.  So, it would even the playing field in that regard.  Do you think all those procs are giving all the melee classes an unfair dps advantage? 

[BigChiefJJ]

<p>A bit off topic about arrows, but regarding Haste and proc normalization - if you had the opportunity to use two melee weapons that each had a 6.8 second delay (DW adjusted to 9 seconds) which would only swing 12 times per minute with 100% haste but would proc on almost all autoattacks would you or would you stay with 4.0 second delay DW that would swing nearly 23 times a minute (100% haste) but only proc on some of the attacks?</p><p>Now if you answered yes to the DW 6.8 second weapons would you still use them if they attacked for the same number of times but only proced on about 2/3's of the attacks now?</p>

[Ozfezza]

<p>Guys, could we please keep to the topic from the OP?</p><p>These huge replies are hijacking a thread about the proposed Arrow Changes - Proc Rates are a similar but different issue.</p><p>Arguing about mechanics that "were" and "was" and "shoulda" is a waste of space ... fact is that the proc rate cap will effect everyone that uses a weapon with a delay of more than 5.33 seconds. </p><p>Will it hurt Rangers? Yes. Will it also hurt other classes? YES - 2 handers anyone?</p><p>Please - Arrow Mechanics is a very serious and central issue to Rangers. If you would like to provide feedback about the proc rates, please do so - in another thread.</p><p>Just my 2cp</p><p> Ozfezza</p><p>80 Ranger - Splitpaw</p>

[Hamervelder]

<cite>Honastea@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You ask for arrows to be fixed, they get fixed.  You ask for some type of group buff, you get one.  And yet there are complaints and cries of "Nerf!".  I'm convinced that the lot of folks who play rangers -- or at least the ones who are most vocal here on the forums -- simply can't be placated.</blockquote>I'm sorry, do you even know what you're talking about. The ranger community said we would rather dps than utility, but we got utility. The arrow fix you so fondly speak of atm has T8 bows doing less than what they currently are on live with the current broken mechanics. Aeralik said oops, thats my bad, they should be doing the same as they are on live atm with the new arrows. Our proc rates are being nerfed along with our auto attack damage being reduced, tell me, where is this so called "fix" you are referring to that we are crying at?</blockquote>I can go back and find the dozens and dozens of posts where rangers asked for utility.  Now you have it.  And you whine.  I can find the posts where rangers asked to have group buffs like other scouts.  Now you have it.  And you whine.  You asked for arrow usage to be fixed.  They have done so, albeit with a bug that will be fixed.  No other class complains en masse as loudly or as often as rangers.  You simply won't be placated, it seems.

[Boramyr]

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote>im not saying everything is fine at all, please show me where i said it, i said clearly that rangers cant utilize the same procs as melee do as there INHERENT bonus from using such a huge delay would result in procs going off in roughly 3-4times more often than they do for melee class'sAs for who i am ..ive quit raiding Hc, but ask Az to post some zw parses or Confirmed's ranger, neither of them gets touched by rogues on a parser. ive seen first hand what kind of dps rangers put up with the current mechanics where you claim to be broken.it was a no brainer what so ever to everyone but rangers it seems, that to fix the arrow mechanics you were going to to see some sort of nerf to your current dps to balance out the new changes.at the moment there testing the changes and the nerf to ensure that rangers dps doesnt go up to much, nor does it get reduced from what it was.</blockquote><p>Yes I was wrong earlier when I talked about proc rates I was calculating from PPM which was already the normalized number instead of true %.  Either way it was a 48% reduction in our proc dps which for me at least is 20% of my overall dps so its roughtly a 10% dps loss in the proc changes and even if Ranger DPS is fine like you and Aeralik seem ot think and 100% of ranger community seems to disagree with then there is still no reason to arbitrarily cut proc dps.  Espcially if its just so we can maybe get a couple of proc buffs every now and again maybe.  But yeah I was wrong procs aren't affected by haste when you calculate normalization from the percentage. </p><p>Now again even if our damage is fine on live when my best weapon does 898-3209 with +15% to hit and on test my best weapon does 779-2790 with a +10% chance to hit.   There is no way anywone that can read the English language and have a basic comprehension of math can say this is going to maintain the current dps.  An guess what I realize your a brigand, but every time you use a bow or a thrown weapon this nerf affects you too.  I know its probably to minimal an amount of time for you to care, but honestly we should all care about even the smallest nerfs when they are unwarranted.  </p>

[Ozfezza]

<cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Honastea@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You ask for arrows to be fixed, they get fixed.  You ask for some type of group buff, you get one.  And yet there are complaints and cries of "Nerf!".  I'm convinced that the lot of folks who play rangers -- or at least the ones who are most vocal here on the forums -- simply can't be placated.</blockquote>I'm sorry, do you even know what you're talking about. The ranger community said we would rather dps than utility, but we got utility. The arrow fix you so fondly speak of atm has T8 bows doing less than what they currently are on live with the current broken mechanics. Aeralik said oops, thats my bad, they should be doing the same as they are on live atm with the new arrows. Our proc rates are being nerfed along with our auto attack damage being reduced, tell me, where is this so called "fix" you are referring to that we are crying at?</blockquote>I can go back and find the dozens and dozens of posts where rangers asked for utility.  Now you have it.  And you whine.  I can find the posts where rangers asked to have group buffs like other scouts.  Now you have it.  And you whine.  You asked for arrow usage to be fixed.  They have done so, albeit with a bug that will be fixed.  No other class complains en masse as loudly or as often as rangers.  You simply won't be placated, it seems.</blockquote><p>Yes ,we now have ONE 15 second group melee buff (60 second recast iirc, would have to check) - I have not heard any whining about it, only mebbe some constructive feedback in a relevant post (eg perhaps instead of buffing melee hit rate, crit rate for all melee and casters would be more beneficial)</p><p>As to the "fix" of the arrow mechanics, that is what this post is about. It has been stated that the fix is not working as intended yet - ok. But from what Aeralik said earlier it appears the intention is that T7 and below is being nerfed and T8 made to do the same damage as it currently is. That means all Rangers will have to find a way to get their Mythical Class Bow to MATCH the DPS being CURRENTLY done by RSB with the broken mechanics.</p><p>Or another way to put it - Rangers will have to work our butt of to maintain T7 DPS, while all other classes get to upgrade to T8 DPS.</p><p>Please stop trolling on a subject that you either know little about, or are simply faking ignorance to get attention.</p>

[Shaulin Dolamite]

<cite>Ozfezza wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Honastea@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You ask for arrows to be fixed, they get fixed.  You ask for some type of group buff, you get one.  And yet there are complaints and cries of "Nerf!".  I'm convinced that the lot of folks who play rangers -- or at least the ones who are most vocal here on the forums -- simply can't be placated.</blockquote>I'm sorry, do you even know what you're talking about. The ranger community said we would rather dps than utility, but we got utility. The arrow fix you so fondly speak of atm has T8 bows doing less than what they currently are on live with the current broken mechanics. Aeralik said oops, thats my bad, they should be doing the same as they are on live atm with the new arrows. Our proc rates are being nerfed along with our auto attack damage being reduced, tell me, where is this so called "fix" you are referring to that we are crying at?</blockquote>I can go back and find the dozens and dozens of posts where rangers asked for utility.  Now you have it.  And you whine.  I can find the posts where rangers asked to have group buffs like other scouts.  Now you have it.  And you whine.  You asked for arrow usage to be fixed.  They have done so, albeit with a bug that will be fixed.  No other class complains en masse as loudly or as often as rangers.  You simply won't be placated, it seems.</blockquote><p>Yes ,we now have ONE 15 second group melee buff (60 second recast iirc, would have to check) - I have not heard any whining about it, only mebbe some constructive feedback in a relevant post (eg perhaps instead of buffing melee hit rate, crit rate for all melee and casters would be more beneficial)</p><p>As to the "fix" of the arrow mechanics, that is what this post is about. It has been stated that the fix is not working as intended yet - ok. But from what Aeralik said earlier it appears the intention is that T7 and below is being nerfed and T8 made to do the same damage as it currently is. That means all Rangers will have to find a way to get their Mythical Class Bow to MATCH the DPS being CURRENTLY done by RSB with the broken mechanics.</p><p>Or another way to put it - Rangers will have to work our butt of to maintain T7 DPS, while all other classes get to upgrade to T8 DPS.</p><p>Please stop trolling on a subject that you either know little about, or are simply faking ignorance to get attention.</p></blockquote>100% agree, hate when changes are made and the class affected by those changes post on the forums( reason #1 why the forums are here) about how the changes are actually working out on test and we all have to suffer some under informed troller screaming whiner at every post made.

[Undacova]

<cite>Ozfezza wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>Yes ,we now have ONE 15 second group melee buff (60 second recast iirc, would have to check) - I have not heard any whining about it, only mebbe some constructive feedback in a relevant post (eg perhaps instead of buffing melee hit rate, crit rate for all melee and casters would be more beneficial)</p><p>As to the "fix" of the arrow mechanics, that is what this post is about. It has been stated that the fix is not working as intended yet - ok. But from what Aeralik said earlier it appears the intention is that T7 and below is being nerfed and T8 made to do the same damage as it currently is. That means all Rangers will have to find a way to get their Mythical Class Bow to MATCH the DPS being CURRENTLY done by RSB with the broken mechanics.</p><p><u><b>Or another way to put it - Rangers will have to work our butt of to maintain T7 DPS, while all other classes get to upgrade to T8 DPS.</b></u></p><p>Please stop trolling on a subject that you either know little about, or are simply faking ignorance to get attention.</p></blockquote>Well Said.

[Kenban]

<cite>EasternKing wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>that is right on paper and wrong in reality, when i use ranged dps anything that procs will proc 99.9% of the time, that is not the case at all for my melee weapons. this has been a well known and documented FACT in eq2 ..why on earth do you think they stopped rangers using all the gear with melee procs on them ? b/cos there mechanics are bust and ranged attacks on a base 9sec delay ALWAYS proc. which is why before they fixed the issue of procing on melee attacks from ranged, rangers used every single item they could get there hands on with a melee proc, the reason was they always proced and rangers gained stupid amounts of dps from them.</blockquote>Well your just wrong so I figured I would get some real world numbers from the live servers.  I went to the wall in the Jungle made sure all I had up was a single proc.  I only sat around for 4 rounds but I attacked for a total of 176 times using my RSB which is a 9 second delay bow.  I proc'ed 37 times which works out to a 21% chance to proc from a proc which goes off 1.8 times per a minute.  Based on the 9 second delay it should attack 6.66 times per a minute which means to proc 1.8 times a minute it has to proc 27% of my auto attacks (assuming 100% hit rates).  Overall just based on the 1.8 procs per a minute my proc % was actually low not high and certainly no where near 100%.My guess is it was just bad luck but there is no way that ranged dps will proc 99.9% of the time with the current mechanics.  This fact your talking about is that CA's used to use the bows proc chance to calculate the chances of proc'ing and it was not based on the casting time of the CA.  Because rangers use long delay weapons the CA's would proc at a much higher rate then any melee would in addition to that there are the double and triple attack lines which hit two or three times when you cast the CA and every hit had a chance to proc.  But it was fixed a LONG time ago I believe it was around 2 years ago.  Anyways the procs at the time were coming from our CA's not our auto attack which is what this change would impact.Actually I find the idea of adding something like this limitation very odd.  It would make it that much harder to balance the game.  The best approach should be to fix the mechanics so all the classes are on a level playing field then go from there.  Kinda like how it appears there is some strange scaler going on behind the scenes with bow mechanics now.  When the arrow mechanics should have been changed to not scale bows within reason and bows damage ranges should be calculated using the same formulas used on melee weapons.  Then any ranged weapons which needs it should be scaled down.  Make the games mechanics solid and then go from there.  Bad mechanics which don't scale correctly have caused many of the problems with this expansion and many of the class balance issues.

[Sydares]

<cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sydares wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You ask for arrows to be fixed, they get fixed.  You ask for some type of group buff, you get one.  And yet there are complaints and cries of "Nerf!".  I'm convinced that the lot of folks who play rangers -- or at least the ones who are most vocal here on the forums -- simply can't be placated.</blockquote>Read the thread before hitting reply next time.</blockquote>I know that you'd like to think of yourself as being witty, but you failed.  "You're pretty much wrong" is about all that you've had to say, aside from complaining.  Memo to you, I did read the thread.  And the several others on the board like it.  And I read a lot of complaining.  Was I surprised?  No.  In fact, when I read the patch notes, I told my roommate, "Rangers got arrows fixed and got a group buff.  I'll bet you $10 that the lot of them will complain about it."  I'm now $10 richer.  Thanks.</blockquote>You're pretty much wrong.

[Wades]

Tests on Test Pvp haste 26Silvertipped recurve bow str at 644 (not adorned)DR 127,1 Level 80/weap 650 - 2047 with ferrite bodkin arrow level 70/weap 511 - 1593 with tenderwood arrow level 70/weap 488 - 1570 with viscid glob level 65Mythical Eagle's Talon bow str at 672 (+10 dps adorn.)DR 151,1 Level 80/weap 775 - 3534 with ferrite bodkin arrow level 70/weap 609 - 2744 with tenderwood arrow level 70/weap 586 - 2721 with viscid glob level 65Rigid Scale Bow str at 648 (+ 10 dps adorn.)DR 115,4 Level 70/weap 771 - 2593 with ferrite bodkin arrow level 70/weap 753 - 2558 with tenderwood arrow level 70/weap 730 - 2535 with viscid glob level 65Star Darkened Longbow str at 636 (+ 10 dps adorn.)DR 110,3 Level 70/weap 586 - 2554 with ferrite bodkin arrow level 70/weap 580 - 2584 with tenderwood arrow level 70/weap 557 - 2561 with viscid glob level 65Ichorstrand (for fun since its arrows are now so useless) - short bow/weap 410 - 914 with ferrite/weap 403 - 907 with tenderwood/weap 380 - 884 with viscid globBows are not properly NERFED. (Silvertipped worst than t7 fabled bows) EDIT: RSB worst than StardarkenedArrows are not properly NERFED. (Tenderwood arrows)There is nothing to test currently since the changes are not correct. This is a joke.My guild may raid on test soon. I dont think I will be allowed to play my ranger :p

[Boramyr]

Um Wades silvertipped is a seven second delay bow it won't have the same kind of max damage as a 9 second delay bow. 

[Wades]

Yeah sorry only 9 secs in that list. I wont correct it, no dev will see the difference

[ZababEW]

Hmm i wish it dont stay like this <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, on test with no ammo Ranged: Name: Eagle's Talon Base Damage: 276 - 1,103 Actual Damage: 615 - 2,461 Actual Delay: 5.3 Proc Percent: 27.0% Procs Per Minute: 1.6 on live with no ammo with same stats and buff Ranged: Name: Eagle's Talon Base Damage: 276 - 1,103 Actual Damage: 784 - 3,136 Actual Delay: 5.3 Proc Percent: 27.0% Procs Per Minute: 1.6 Why are we loosing dmg with no arrow someone can explain to me that pls?

[Tyberi]

Bows... need to be nerfed? What the crap. Over. With Mythical bow: Current live top end with no ammo: 4500 Current live value with best available ammo: 3600 Current test value with best available ammo: 3700 This is just pathetic and completely dropping the ball on "fixing" ammunition.

[ZababEW]

hmm i wish its a error , because i jsut dont understand this. live server, no ammo Ranged: Name: Eagle's Talon Base Damage: 276 - 1,103 Actual Damage: 784 - 3,136 Actual Delay: 5.3 Proc Percent: 27.0% Procs Per Minute: 1.6 test server, no ammo same setting as live Ranged: Name: Eagle's Talon Base Damage: 276 - 1,103 Actual Damage: 615 - 2,461 Actual Delay: 5.3 Proc Percent: 27.0% Procs Per Minute: 1.6 Someone explain to me why my bow with no ammo loose a ton of dmg?( same equip same buff all same as live )

[Sydares]

<cite>ZababEW wrote:</cite><blockquote>hmm i wish its a error , because i jsut dont understand this. Someone explain to me why my bow with no ammo loose a ton of dmg?( same equip same buff all same as live ) </blockquote>Ha...the plot thickens.

[Hamervelder]

<cite>Ozfezza wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Honastea@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You ask for arrows to be fixed, they get fixed.  You ask for some type of group buff, you get one.  And yet there are complaints and cries of "Nerf!".  I'm convinced that the lot of folks who play rangers -- or at least the ones who are most vocal here on the forums -- simply can't be placated.</blockquote>I'm sorry, do you even know what you're talking about. The ranger community said we would rather dps than utility, but we got utility. The arrow fix you so fondly speak of atm has T8 bows doing less than what they currently are on live with the current broken mechanics. Aeralik said oops, thats my bad, they should be doing the same as they are on live atm with the new arrows. Our proc rates are being nerfed along with our auto attack damage being reduced, tell me, where is this so called "fix" you are referring to that we are crying at?</blockquote>I can go back and find the dozens and dozens of posts where rangers asked for utility.  Now you have it.  And you whine.  I can find the posts where rangers asked to have group buffs like other scouts.  Now you have it.  And you whine.  You asked for arrow usage to be fixed.  They have done so, albeit with a bug that will be fixed.  No other class complains en masse as loudly or as often as rangers.  You simply won't be placated, it seems.</blockquote><p>Yes ,we now have ONE 15 second group melee buff (60 second recast iirc, would have to check) - I have not heard any whining about it, only mebbe some constructive feedback in a relevant post (eg perhaps instead of buffing melee hit rate, crit rate for all melee and casters would be more beneficial)</p><p>As to the "fix" of the arrow mechanics, that is what this post is about. It has been stated that the fix is not working as intended yet - ok. But from what Aeralik said earlier it appears the intention is that T7 and below is being nerfed and T8 made to do the same damage as it currently is. That means all Rangers will have to find a way to get their Mythical Class Bow to MATCH the DPS being CURRENTLY done by RSB with the broken mechanics.</p><p>Or another way to put it - Rangers will have to work our butt of to maintain T7 DPS, while all other classes get to upgrade to T8 DPS.</p><p>Please stop trolling on a subject that you either know little about, or are simply faking ignorance to get attention.</p></blockquote>I'm not trolling at all, friend.  Nor do I really need attention from you, or anyone else.  I simply made a point: It doesn't matter what the developers do, some people just won't be happy.  This has been going on for months and months.  And when someone disagrees with the loud majority, what happens?  "You don't know what you're talking about."  "You're an idiot."  "You're trolling."  The list goes on and on.  As one developer said some time ago, your class has dominated DPS throughout EQ2's history, even with mechanics working against you.  Like it or not, <i>rangers do not need a "fix"</i>.  Would it be nice to see you get one?  Sure.  It's great to see any class get attention.  Even though I personally believe your class is still overpowered in some regards, boosting the ranger class can only help everyone else, by giving you more to bring to the group or raid.  So let's drop the peremptory challenges, hmm?  Your class isn't broken, and never has been. So you may not feel as desirable on raids as other classes.  So you may have to work harder to get and maintain a spot in your raid.  Welcome to the world of being a monk.  Or a bruiser.  Or a shadowknight.  Or a paladin.  All classes with much bigger problems, and much less demand than rangers.   What if, like crusaders and brawlers, the developers have decided that your class is not high on the list of raid-desired classes?  I suppose that you'd have to lump it, just like the rest of us who play the classes that I mentioned.  If, as seems to be the predominant view among rangers, your class is broken and in need of attention, so are all of those classes.  What you, and so many other rangers fail to realize is just how good you have it.  Do you know how difficult it is for brawlers and crusaders to get spots in raiding guilds?  It's nigh impossible.  "But you're tanks.  They don't need you.", you may reply.  To which I may respond, perhaps your days of being the top scout class are over.  Look at the big picture, my friend.  Your class is just fine.Have a nice evening.

[Ozfezza]

<p>Reality check - ofc not everyone will be happy with any change, I don't think anyone could disagree there.</p><p>Ok Uros, you wanted to compare Rangers to Monks, Bruisers, SKs and Pallys.</p><p>The classes you are trying to compare us to are TANKS. Do bruisers and crusaders have trouble getting into raiding guilds? I agree yes.</p><p>Why? Because (imo) those classes are examples of "mixed" Tank classes - eg Tanks with heals (crusader). Additionally, a normal raid force is composed of a few tanks, the rest made up of DPS and heals. These "mixed" Tank classes simply are outclassed by "pure" tanks (aka Guardian / Berzerker) in the Main Tank and Off Tank role - as they should be.</p><p>That said these classes are recieving additional help (which was needed) to make them more desirable in raids - eg raid-wide buffs etc. This helps them fit better into a more useful "utility" type role that imo suits them better. Could they do with more help? Probably, but I won't pretend to know how to improve a class I don't play a lot.</p><p>Rangers on the other hand are pure DPS - no other functionality. NONE.</p><p>We now have ONE 15 second group buff in testing - and are grateful. It is not as useful as any of the buffs provided by other DPS classes, but we are still grateful.</p><p>So, comparing a pure DPS class to other pure DPS classes - <b>why should our DPS be an entire tier behind classes of a similar nature?</b> That is the crux of the issue at hand.</p><p>So Rangers have been among the highest (and sometime THE highest) DPS classes throughout EQ2's history? Yes - and we SHOULD be among the highest, as that is our one and only function in a group or raid. Should we be THE highest ... well that is a more subjective issue and don't think it is relevant to raise here.</p><p>Arrow mechanics have been broken for 2 years but not looked at until now as Rangers were still roughly on par with other pure DPS classes. While not ideal, I have no problem with this. (You may now pick your jaw up off the floor <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>The issue at hand is that T8 has openned a can of worms with 2 problems. Firstly T8 bows did LESS damage than the previous tier - and that is being fixed after 6 months, ok better late than never. But this "fix" is aimed to reduce the current state of the Ranger class (pre-RoK) from on par with other pure DPS classes to <b>one TIER behind other DPS classes</b>. Now, please tell me that that part of the big picture fits !</p><p>So to sum up, Rangers were where they should be (roughly) throughout EQ2 history - ie roughly on par with other pure DPS classes. <b>All that we are asking is that you leave us there, and not an entire tier behind. </b>Wouldn't that fit into your big picture better?</p><p>I am open to discussion on the matter, but calling Rangers whiners (your words not mine) without any useful input makes it hard to see you as doing anything other than looking for attention or trying to get a thread derailed / locked. If you don't agree with something that I post, please feel free to engage in the discussion. In fact I would like to ask your input, as someone that doesn't play a Ranger would have a different perspective that may be useful. If not, please take yourself elsewhere.</p><p>Many Thanks,</p><p>Ozfezza</p><p>80 Ranger - Splitpaw</p>

[Hamervelder]

<cite>Ozfezza wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Reality check - ofc not everyone will be happy with any change, I don't think anyone could disagree there.</p><p>Ok Uros, you wanted to compare Rangers to Monks, Bruisers, SKs and Pallys.</p><p>The classes you are trying to compare us to are TANKS. Do bruisers and crusaders have trouble getting into raiding guilds? I agree yes.</p><p>Why? Because (imo) those classes are examples of "mixed" Tank classes - eg Tanks with heals (crusader). Additionally, a normal raid force is composed of a few tanks, the rest made up of DPS and heals. These "mixed" Tank classes simply are outclassed by "pure" tanks (aka Guardian / Berzerker) in the Main Tank and Off Tank role - as they should be.</p><p>That said these classes are recieving additional help (which was needed) to make them more desirable in raids - eg raid-wide buffs etc. This helps them fit better into a more useful "utility" type role that imo suits them better. Could they do with more help? Probably, but I won't pretend to know how to improve a class I don't play a lot.</p><p>Rangers on the other hand are pure DPS - no other functionality. NONE.</p><p>We now have ONE 15 second group buff in testing - and are grateful. It is not as useful as any of the buffs provided by other DPS classes, but we are still grateful.</p><p>So, comparing a pure DPS class to other pure DPS classes - <b>why should our DPS be an entire tier behind classes of a similar nature?</b> That is the crux of the issue at hand.</p><p>So Rangers have been among the highest (and sometime THE highest) DPS classes throughout EQ2's history? Yes - and we SHOULD be among the highest, as that is our one and only function in a group or raid. Should we be THE highest ... well that is a more subjective issue and don't think it is relevant to raise here.</p><p>Arrow mechanics have been broken for 2 years but not looked at until now as Rangers were still roughly on par with other pure DPS classes. While not ideal, I have no problem with this. (You may now pick your jaw up off the floor <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></p><p>The issue at hand is that T8 has openned a can of worms with 2 problems. Firstly T8 bows did LESS damage than the previous tier - and that is being fixed after 6 months, ok better late than never. But this "fix" is aimed to reduce the current state of the Ranger class (pre-RoK) from on par with other pure DPS classes to <b>one TIER behind other DPS classes</b>. Now, please tell me that that part of the big picture fits !</p><p>So to sum up, Rangers were where they should be (roughly) throughout EQ2 history - ie roughly on par with other pure DPS classes. <b>All that we are asking is that you leave us there, and not an entire tier behind. </b>Wouldn't that fit into your big picture better?</p><p>I am open to discussion on the matter, but calling Rangers whiners (your words not mine) without any useful input makes it hard to see you as doing anything other than looking for attention or trying to get a thread derailed / locked. If you don't agree with something that I post, please feel free to engage in the discussion. In fact I would like to ask your input, as someone that doesn't play a Ranger would have a different perspective that may be useful. If not, please take yourself elsewhere.</p><p>Many Thanks,</p><p>Ozfezza</p><p>80 Ranger - Splitpaw</p></blockquote>Thank you for reading my reply, and actually replying to my post.  I appreciate that.  We'll have to agree to disagree, I suppose.  Although to be fair, you did respond as I had expected -- by saying that crusaders, et al, are tanks and therefore not needed.  To which I pose the question:  Perhaps rangers are also no longer needed.  I don't suppose that shoe fits so good when it's on one's own foot.  But I appreciate your post.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Windowlicker]

I hate to say it but I don't think I ever saw the Ranger as a class that should be putting up T1 numbers in the first place.That being said, I also don't think putting out good DPS was ever a problem for the class.  Every single one of us has been getting smacked with nerf after nerf.  I can't say I'm surprised to see this one.Do I think it's as horrible as people are making it seem?Nope.  And I sure don't think it deserves a 9 page thread. 

[Anekuh]

<cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>I'm not trolling at all, friend.  Nor do I really need attention from you, or anyone else.  I simply made a point: It doesn't matter what the developers do, some people just won't be happy.  This has been going on for months and months.  And when someone disagrees with the loud majority, what happens?  "You don't know what you're talking about."  "You're an idiot."  "You're trolling."  The list goes on and on.  As one developer said some time ago, your class has dominated DPS throughout EQ2's history, even with mechanics working against you.  Like it or not, <i>rangers do not need a "fix"</i>.  Would it be nice to see you get one?  Sure.  It's great to see any class get attention.  Even though I personally believe your class is still overpowered in some regards, boosting the ranger class can only help everyone else, by giving you more to bring to the group or raid.  So let's drop the peremptory challenges, hmm?  Your class isn't broken, and never has been. So you may not feel as desirable on raids as other classes.  So you may have to work harder to get and maintain a spot in your raid.  Welcome to the world of being a monk.  Or a bruiser.  Or a shadowknight.  Or a paladin.  All classes with much bigger problems, and much less demand than rangers.   What if, like crusaders and brawlers, the developers have decided that your class is not high on the list of raid-desired classes?  I suppose that you'd have to lump it, just like the rest of us who play the classes that I mentioned.  If, as seems to be the predominant view among rangers, your class is broken and in need of attention, so are all of those classes.  What you, and so many other rangers fail to realize is just how good you have it.  Do you know how difficult it is for brawlers and crusaders to get spots in raiding guilds?  It's nigh impossible.  "But you're tanks.  They don't need you.", you may reply.  To which I may respond, perhaps your days of being the top scout class are over.  Look at the big picture, my friend.  Your class is just fine.Have a nice evening.</blockquote></blockquote><p>Your arguement is flawed. You are comparing apples to oranges. Rangers cannot be compared to crusaders or monks. We are compared to one class: assassins. We are there opposite and therefore we should be doing the same (or close to) damage as they do in raid settings. So, to say we are not broken is plain BS. We are not doing the same dps output as assassins. That is a fact at this moment.</p><p>This is our chance to tell Aeralik that we need a fix. If you want your class to be fix, then post it on your class forums.</p>

[Rensor]

<cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ozfezza wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Reality check - ofc not everyone will be happy with any change, I don't think anyone could disagree there.</p><p>Ok Uros, you wanted to compare Rangers to Monks, Bruisers, SKs and Pallys.</p><p>The classes you are trying to compare us to are TANKS. Do bruisers and crusaders have trouble getting into raiding guilds? I agree yes.</p><p>Why? Because (imo) those classes are examples of "mixed" Tank classes - eg Tanks with heals (crusader). Additionally, a normal raid force is composed of a few tanks, the rest made up of DPS and heals. These "mixed" Tank classes simply are outclassed by "pure" tanks (aka Guardian / Berzerker) in the Main Tank and Off Tank role - as they should be.</p><p>That said these classes are recieving additional help (which was needed) to make them more desirable in raids - eg raid-wide buffs etc. This helps them fit better into a more useful "utility" type role that imo suits them better. Could they do with more help? Probably, but I won't pretend to know how to improve a class I don't play a lot.</p><p>Rangers on the other hand are pure DPS - no other functionality. NONE.</p><p>We now have ONE 15 second group buff in testing - and are grateful. It is not as useful as any of the buffs provided by other DPS classes, but we are still grateful.</p><p>So, comparing a pure DPS class to other pure DPS classes - <b>why should our DPS be an entire tier behind classes of a similar nature?</b> That is the crux of the issue at hand.</p><p>So Rangers have been among the highest (and sometime THE highest) DPS classes throughout EQ2's history? Yes - and we SHOULD be among the highest, as that is our one and only function in a group or raid. Should we be THE highest ... well that is a more subjective issue and don't think it is relevant to raise here.</p><p>Arrow mechanics have been broken for 2 years but not looked at until now as Rangers were still roughly on par with other pure DPS classes. While not ideal, I have no problem with this. (You may now pick your jaw up off the floor <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />"></p><p>The issue at hand is that T8 has openned a can of worms with 2 problems. Firstly T8 bows did LESS damage than the previous tier - and that is being fixed after 6 months, ok better late than never. But this "fix" is aimed to reduce the current state of the Ranger class (pre-RoK) from on par with other pure DPS classes to <b>one TIER behind other DPS classes</b>. Now, please tell me that that part of the big picture fits !</p><p>So to sum up, Rangers were where they should be (roughly) throughout EQ2 history - ie roughly on par with other pure DPS classes. <b>All that we are asking is that you leave us there, and not an entire tier behind. </b>Wouldn't that fit into your big picture better?</p><p>I am open to discussion on the matter, but calling Rangers whiners (your words not mine) without any useful input makes it hard to see you as doing anything other than looking for attention or trying to get a thread derailed / locked. If you don't agree with something that I post, please feel free to engage in the discussion. In fact I would like to ask your input, as someone that doesn't play a Ranger would have a different perspective that may be useful. If not, please take yourself elsewhere.</p><p>Many Thanks,</p><p>Ozfezza</p><p>80 Ranger - Splitpaw</p></blockquote>Thank you for reading my reply, and actually replying to my post.  I appreciate that.  We'll have to agree to disagree, I suppose.  Although to be fair, you did respond as I had expected -- by saying that crusaders, et al, are tanks and therefore not needed.  To which I pose the question:  Perhaps rangers are also no longer needed.  I don't suppose that shoe fits so good when it's on one's own foot.  But I appreciate your post.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>By all means, fix crusaders and bruisers too!  I don't think anyone here is saying that those classes don't need some looking at too (er...most of us aren't anyway).  But I hope you can understand why some of us are taking umbrage at being called "whiners" for voicing concerns over our class.</p><p>I'm not claiming that you're unable to understand the issues, but it does seem apparent that you're overestimating the usefulness of the changes currently on test.  Parses have already shown an overall decrease in DPS from these changes.  Our "whining" is simply an effort to bring these shortcomings to light.  Why have a test server if we're not to offer feedback on what's being tested?  Aeralik has already replied that certain things aren't working as intended on test.  My opinion as to whether his final tweaks to these changes will be sufficient is immaterial.  The point is that without our "whining," these admittedly flawed mechanics might have gone live unnoticed.</p><p>For what it's worth, I think the non-warrior tanks need some serious positive adjustments too.  Really, they are in a very similar boat as the rangers.  They're effective soloers, and perform well in groups...and are currently almost wholly undesirable in raids (i.e. other classes can fulfill their roles better 100% of the time).  You're telling us to lie down and accept this.  My response is that rather, these classes should start speaking up and getting more vocal just like us!</p><p>For all of our "whining" over the past several years, ranger have seen only two true benefits:  increased group utility through the new Focus Aim (thank you devs!) and a fix to keep our hawk from breaking stealth (which is really more of a minor bug fix than a boon).  The incoming ammo fixes we've been clamoring for seem to be resulting in a net loss for our community.  I just hope that our "whining" is heard before it all goes live.</p>

[ReficulFonwaps]

<cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ozfezza wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Reality check - ofc not everyone will be happy with any change, I don't think anyone could disagree there.</p><p>Ok Uros, you wanted to compare Rangers to Monks, Bruisers, SKs and Pallys.</p><p>The classes you are trying to compare us to are TANKS. Do bruisers and crusaders have trouble getting into raiding guilds? I agree yes.</p><p>Why? Because (imo) those classes are examples of "mixed" Tank classes - eg Tanks with heals (crusader). Additionally, a normal raid force is composed of a few tanks, the rest made up of DPS and heals. These "mixed" Tank classes simply are outclassed by "pure" tanks (aka Guardian / Berzerker) in the Main Tank and Off Tank role - as they should be.</p><p>That said these classes are recieving additional help (which was needed) to make them more desirable in raids - eg raid-wide buffs etc. This helps them fit better into a more useful "utility" type role that imo suits them better.</p></blockquote>Thank you for reading my reply, and actually replying to my post.  I appreciate that.  We'll have to agree to disagree, I suppose.  Although to be fair, you did respond as I had expected -- by saying that crusaders, et al, are tanks and therefore not needed.  To which I pose the question:  Perhaps rangers are also no longer needed.  I don't suppose that shoe fits so good when it's on one's own foot.  But I appreciate your post.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>Yeah if this guy is saying crusaders should be a secondary/utility tank class then maybe the same can be said for rangers being a utility dps class. You got a new group buff, that helps you fit better into your  "utility" type role, that imo suits you better.  Rangers are now a dps/utility class, so stop crying about your DPS, love it or leave it.

[Kenban]

<cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Thank you for reading my reply, and actually replying to my post.  I appreciate that.  We'll have to agree to disagree, I suppose.  Although to be fair, you did respond as I had expected -- by saying that crusaders, et al, are tanks and therefore not needed.  To which I pose the question:  Perhaps rangers are also no longer needed.  I don't suppose that shoe fits so good when it's on one's own foot.  But I appreciate your post.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /></blockquote>Really there have been discussions about it on the ranger forums and other locations which would agree with you though.  Either fix the class or remove it.  This game really does have too many classes and its becoming very obvious the developers either can't handle or won't deal with 24 classes.  Its possible the only way to fix some of them is to combine them with other classes.  For example the Rangers and Assassins could be combined into just predators.

[kartikeya]

<cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Ozfezza wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Honastea@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>You ask for arrows to be fixed, they get fixed.  You ask for some type of group buff, you get one.  And yet there are complaints and cries of "Nerf!".  I'm convinced that the lot of folks who play rangers -- or at least the ones who are most vocal here on the forums -- simply can't be placated.</blockquote>I'm sorry, do you even know what you're talking about. The ranger community said we would rather dps than utility, but we got utility. The arrow fix you so fondly speak of atm has T8 bows doing less than what they currently are on live with the current broken mechanics. Aeralik said oops, thats my bad, they should be doing the same as they are on live atm with the new arrows. Our proc rates are being nerfed along with our auto attack damage being reduced, tell me, where is this so called "fix" you are referring to that we are crying at?</blockquote>I can go back and find the dozens and dozens of posts where rangers asked for utility.  Now you have it.  And you whine.  I can find the posts where rangers asked to have group buffs like other scouts.  Now you have it.  And you whine.  You asked for arrow usage to be fixed.  They have done so, albeit with a bug that will be fixed.  No other class complains en masse as loudly or as often as rangers.  You simply won't be placated, it seems.</blockquote><p>Yes ,we now have ONE 15 second group melee buff (60 second recast iirc, would have to check) - I have not heard any whining about it, only mebbe some constructive feedback in a relevant post (eg perhaps instead of buffing melee hit rate, crit rate for all melee and casters would be more beneficial)</p><p>As to the "fix" of the arrow mechanics, that is what this post is about. It has been stated that the fix is not working as intended yet - ok. But from what Aeralik said earlier it appears the intention is that T7 and below is being nerfed and T8 made to do the same damage as it currently is. That means all Rangers will have to find a way to get their Mythical Class Bow to MATCH the DPS being CURRENTLY done by RSB with the broken mechanics.</p><p>Or another way to put it - Rangers will have to work our butt of to maintain T7 DPS, while all other classes get to upgrade to T8 DPS.</p><p>Please stop trolling on a subject that you either know little about, or are simply faking ignorance to get attention.</p></blockquote>I'm not trolling at all, friend.  Nor do I really need attention from you, or anyone else.  I simply made a point: It doesn't matter what the developers do, some people just won't be happy.  This has been going on for months and months.  And when someone disagrees with the loud majority, what happens?  "You don't know what you're talking about."  "You're an idiot."  "You're trolling."  The list goes on and on.  As one developer said some time ago, your class has dominated DPS throughout EQ2's history, even with mechanics working against you.  Like it or not, <i>rangers do not need a "fix"</i>.  Would it be nice to see you get one?  Sure.  It's great to see any class get attention.  Even though I personally believe your class is still overpowered in some regards, boosting the ranger class can only help everyone else, by giving you more to bring to the group or raid.  So let's drop the peremptory challenges, hmm?  Your class isn't broken, and never has been. So you may not feel as desirable on raids as other classes.  So you may have to work harder to get and maintain a spot in your raid.  Welcome to the world of being a monk.  Or a bruiser.  Or a shadowknight.  Or a paladin.  All classes with much bigger problems, and much less demand than rangers.   What if, like crusaders and brawlers, the developers have decided that your class is not high on the list of raid-desired classes?  I suppose that you'd have to lump it, just like the rest of us who play the classes that I mentioned.  If, as seems to be the predominant view among rangers, your class is broken and in need of attention, so are all of those classes.  What you, and so many other rangers fail to realize is just how good you have it.  Do you know how difficult it is for brawlers and crusaders to get spots in raiding guilds?  It's nigh impossible.  "But you're tanks.  They don't need you.", you may reply.  To which I may respond, perhaps your days of being the top scout class are over.  Look at the big picture, my friend.  Your class is just fine.Have a nice evening.</blockquote><p>*blink* </p><p>*blink blink blink blink* What the hell? Uros, your main is a SK. My main is a ranger. I don't go around telling you that you have no idea what the problems of SKs are, even if I have a SK alt. </p><p>Have you seen me online more than once or twice in the past three months? No. Why is that? Because the ranger class is in very, very, very, very bad shape. It's most obvious at the high end, but it trickles down enough that for someone like me it's still incredibly noticeable. These issues have been going on for <i>years</i>. Since the <i>release </i>of RoK, NOT ONE T8 BOW has been better than the top end bows from T7.</p><p>Let me repeat that. </p><p><b><span style="font-size: large;">Since the <i>release </i>of RoK, NOT ONE T8 BOW has been an upgrade from the top end bows bow from T7.</span></b></p><p>Exception? Possibly our epic, there was some debate last I looked. Not the fabled version. The MYTHICAL version. Oh, and it was nerfed less than a day from release. Joy. Every ranger who has finished their epic and and is not a member of the absolute top, cutting edge raid guild promptly bagged it.</p><p>Not bad enough? Okay. I, being a casual sort of raider, am <b>STILL USING RAINCALLER AT LEVEL 80. </b>That's a level 57 bow! FIFTY SEVEN. Two tiers and some change ago. It's not for lack of available bows either. There are three or four I can think of, off hand, that I can obtain solo, that by all rights should be a big upgrade to a level 57 bow. Guess what I discovered? Because the arrow mechanics are so messed up, Rain Caller outpeforms those bows. Oh, not by a huge amount, but it does. </p><p>Are you still using a sword from two tiers ago? Have you found that every single one of your T8 weapons is inferior to T7 weapons? What if RoK had released and every single piece of plate armor in the entire expansion was inferior to plate armor you got at level 70? Wouldn't that be irking?</p><p>Right, enough with the mechanics. That's all background. It was the biggest, most vocal problem of ours, and so, finally, /finally/, after months and months of being told 'no, dude, rangers are totally fine, really', while everyone and their one legged grandmother passes rangers over in DPS, we finally were told we were going to get some attention. We were told that not only were they going to fix the blasted arrow mechanics, but they were looking into giving us utility (tears of joy there), and a range of other things. I can't put into words how badly this was needed. You talk about how we've been fussing for months, well YES FOR GOOD REASON. So right, finally, they're saying they're gonna make changes, the tidbits /sound/ good, we're led to believe it's got the potential to be very nice, and hey, even if they only fix the arrow mechanics it means there's a point in trying to do my epic and I can actually FINALLY get an upgrade. Heck, it was even pumped up in the sneak preview, all these ranger changes. It sounded really GOOD. My stupid optimism showed up again. I thought, 'Hey, this sounds GOOD. Look at this stuff. It looks great!'</p><p>This isn't just a fix that was more mediocre than we hoped for. I think I'd be dancing down the Kelethin bridges just for something, ANY kind of change for the better. This is, and I absolutely loathe the phrase so it's painful to freaking type it--but this is, without a doubt, the absolute definition of slap. In. The. Face. This is NOT a gain. They fixed the arrow mechanics, and then not only messed with things so that we didn't get any gain at all (and we were using T7 weaponry so now our T8 weaponry is supposed to do the same damage and all is well? What?) but we're actually WORSE off than before the mechanics fix. Procs are gutted again, hitrates are kicked in the teeth, arrows are nerfballed. Even if we go with the assumption for a moment that Aeralik is correct and rangers on live are fine DPS wise (they completely are NOT), why are rangers then getting their DPS NERFED? It makes absolutely no freaking sense, whether I look at it from Aeralik's position or mine.</p><p>Focus Aim buff. The number crunchers are saying it should be higher, the fact that I actually have a buff, no matter how pathetic, that will help my group, makes me prance. Or it would, if the above massive wall of text wasn't the case.</p><p>Hawk not breaking stealth? Something we've been asking for ever since we got the stupid hawk. YAY.</p><p>Oh, and they'll let me display my bow over melee weapons now. In fact, I think what's really disheartening is that THIS is the one change that excites me. And it's pure fluff. But I'll list it because it's something I've wanted for years.</p><p>Now, the slightly less TL;DR version: the big ranger 'fixes' are in fact one fix, a few tiny tweaks, rolled up into a huge big pile of nerf that we were led to believe would be beneficial. Rangers will lose DPS if these changes go live. Not piddly amounts either, from what I'm seeing. Rangers are already way way way way WAY behind assassins, which is our sister class, which should be, as we are both pure DPS scouts, what we should be drawing EQUAL to. We're not even edging on them at this point. We're not even on the race track. We're off in the stands eating stale popcorn. </p><p>So kindly stop telling me that the class I've played as a main for years and years, that I've rode through nerf after nerf after nerf after inconcievable nerf, that I've soloed and grouped and raided with extensively, that I forum lurk to learn more about, that I've essentially devoted the vast majority of my EQ2 career to, does not need a fix. I don't hang out on the forums all day to complain. I WANT to play EQ2. I do NOT want to quit. I like the ranger class. But it has become so incredibly demoralizing to play Shard that my desire to log into the game at all has been nonexistent for three or four months now, even though I've got friends that I miss and want to hang out and do things with. </p><p>I don't tell you that SKs are totally fine and don't need attention. I don't go into your class threads and call you a whiner and act like I know more about your class than you do because I have some SK alt I break out for fun and giggles. This thread is here to give feedback on the arrow changes and the nerfs threatening to hit the ranger class. This is the whole POINT of test server. Feedback. And we were told to come and give feedback on these changes specifically. And I would certainly say the feedback to this is NEGATIVE. That's not a bad thing. That tells the devs they're doing it wrong and need to adjust. The reason why we're being so vehement about the whole matter is SOE has a rather abysmal track record when it comes to changing anything on Test in any significant, or at least beneficial manner, before it hits live. GU 44 will get pushed to the live servers whether these changes have been fully tested or tweaked or not.  </p><p>Yeah, I'm ranting at you. Because you really do NOT know the first thing about what you're talking about here. </p>

[Ozfezza]

<cite>Kenban wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Thank you for reading my reply, and actually replying to my post.  I appreciate that.  We'll have to agree to disagree, I suppose.  Although to be fair, you did respond as I had expected -- by saying that crusaders, et al, are tanks and therefore not needed.  To which I pose the question:  Perhaps rangers are also no longer needed.  I don't suppose that shoe fits so good when it's on one's own foot.  But I appreciate your post.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />"></blockquote>Really there have been discussions about it on the ranger forums and other locations which would agree with you though.  Either fix the class or remove it.  This game really does have too many classes and its becoming very obvious the developers either can't handle or won't deal with 24 classes.  Its possible the only way to fix some of them is to combine them with other classes.  For example the Rangers and Assassins could be combined into just predators.</blockquote><p>Trying to combine posts a bit, not trying to be rude <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Thank you Uros, I think we will agree to disagree for now. While we didn't reach agreement, I do agree that people actually reading posts before replying and enagaging in discussion is more helpful than negative generalities thrown back and forth. I would like to thank you for your input.</p><p>While crusaders et al may not be needed as tanks, I hope that you guys start getting more raiding love with your improved utility <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>I think that the gap we are having trouble crossing is that Rangers are pure DPS while crusaders et al can fill more than one role (altho the practicality or reality of this is debateable).</p><p>As to class removal, combining Assassins and Rangers would pose one huge issue - Assassins are mostly melee DPS while Rangers are mostly ranged DPS. While I do not wish it on them, but wouldn't perhaps bruisers or crusaders be more likely candidates for class combination? If it would mean that the combined class would get some much needed loving (similar to us Rangers) I think more would be for it than against ... but again I don't know any of these classes to knowledgeably comment.</p><p>For those suggesting Rangers are a utility class or shouldn't be T1 DPS, I am sorry but pls get an idea !</p><p>Please keep the constructive feedback coming - hopefully all this discussion will lead to a well balanced fix <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Dreyco]

Erm.. before i'm called a "Troll" again, let me just get one thing across.I played a ranger, up to 70.I betrayed him to Assassin because I didn't like the way that the nerfs were affecting the class.  On top of that, i'm a casual player, and could not afford arrows because they were just getting too expensive, and I couldn't keep up with the cost (on top of poisons, abilities, etc etc).So... yeah, before i'm called a troll, I feel your pain.However, I posted what I did because I know for a flipping fact that the Developers are not going to come here and listen to anything other than constructive feedback.  I want to see a good balanced upgrade to Rangers as much as anyone else, because, heck, I love the class.  But flaming the man isn't going to get you what you want.  Flaming others isn't going to get you what you want.If they want to have us do lower damage? Well, alright.  That's fine.  If we were too high? Well, alright.  That's fine.  If there is dispersity? Well, alright.  That's correctable.  I still think it's silly that I have to pay for my DPS as a ranger while other classes get to cast just as potent spells for no cost other than their mana.  But that's what they're trying to correct.And if they didn't get something right, then this is your opportunity to fix it with constructive feedback.The reason that I say that "posting your /weapon doesn't give them anything", is because the things that they did affected more than melee attack.  It's a possibility that things balance out with the combat art refresh timers and other tweaks that they've done.  Posting parses is the best way to go.  I'd honestly love to do so myself? But i'm not going to betray back to ranger on live AND on test just to get the data.  All of you who are sitting here and venting? Can.Or you can just sit here and continue tearing each other apart.  This way, you're pretty much ending up with the change hitting live no matter how you look at it.I want you guys to get a boost. I love the class.  I really do believe they're trying.  Do yourself a favor and the entire ranger community with you, and get some good, valuable data from test instead of flaming each other into the new Shard of Hate and back again.

[kartikeya]

<cite>Dreyco wrote:</cite><blockquote>Erm.. before i'm called a "Troll" again, let me just get one thing across.I played a ranger, up to 70.I betrayed him to Assassin because I didn't like the way that the nerfs were affecting the class.  On top of that, i'm a casual player, and could not afford arrows because they were just getting too expensive, and I couldn't keep up with the cost (on top of poisons, abilities, etc etc).So... yeah, before i'm called a troll, I feel your pain.However, I posted what I did because I know for a flipping fact that the Developers are not going to come here and listen to anything other than constructive feedback.  I want to see a good balanced upgrade to Rangers as much as anyone else, because, heck, I love the class.  But flaming the man isn't going to get you what you want.  Flaming others isn't going to get you what you want.If they want to have us do lower damage? Well, alright.  That's fine.  If we were too high? Well, alright.  That's fine.  If there is dispersity? Well, alright.  That's correctable.  I still think it's silly that I have to pay for my DPS as a ranger while other classes get to cast just as potent spells for no cost other than their mana.  But that's what they're trying to correct.And if they didn't get something right, then this is your opportunity to fix it with constructive feedback.The reason that I say that "posting your /weapon doesn't give them anything", is because the things that they did affected more than melee attack.  It's a possibility that things balance out with the combat art refresh timers and other tweaks that they've done.  Posting parses is the best way to go.  I'd honestly love to do so myself? But i'm not going to betray back to ranger on live AND on test just to get the data.  All of you who are sitting here and venting? Can.Or you can just sit here and continue tearing each other apart.  This way, you're pretty much ending up with the change hitting live no matter how you look at it.I want you guys to get a boost. I love the class.  I really do believe they're trying.  Do yourself a favor and the entire ranger community with you, and get some good, valuable data from test <b>instead of flaming each other into the new Shard of Hate</b> and back again.</blockquote>But I AM the Shard of Hate. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[gutti]

<cite>ReficulFonwaps wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Yeah if this guy is saying crusaders should be a secondary/utility tank class then maybe the same can be said for rangers being a utility dps class. You got a new group buff, that helps you fit better into your  "utility" type role, that imo suits you better.  Rangers are now a dps/utility class, so stop crying about your DPS, love it or leave it.</blockquote>Do you consider a assasin dps/utility since they have hate transfer? and nice lil poison proc?  25% hit chance buff for 15 sec every 1min 20sec, after they have fixed hit rates. How many zones does this even effect? I dont hear people saying "man i wish i had 25% hit chance for 15 sec on that last fight". This is far from actual utility please never say rangers are dps/utility.This thread is about arrows anyway isn't it? not utility.Whoever says rangers are not suppose to be t1 dps is just misinformed you must have missed the memo that was sent out couple years ago. T1 DPS( [Removed for Content], Ranger, Wiz, Warlock) in no certain order.What dont you understand about that? If you dont know anything about arrows mechanics or have anything to say about arrows why are you even posting in this thread?

[Huugr]

<p>To stress things a bit i will kinda repeat myself at the attention of the devs as they are coming back from their week-end :</p><p>a/ The arrow "fix" doesn't fix anything. It is just another bandage over a broken leg. You tweaked a bit (not that little of a bit actually) the "hidden" mechanics to come in line with what should have been.</p><p>b/ On top of that, you added to the class the most concerned by arrows so many changes that the result cannot be tested except if a whole guild come to test server and actually conduct hours of fight on both live and test servers and compare the data IE does your job without the tools to do it.</p><p>c/ Finally, the dev in charge, stated quite plain and simple that he didn't tested the changes with the RSB which plays a critical role in this matter but only with ONE bow. So, seriously, what are we asked to test ?</p><p>This is a feedback btw, more on the way the change is made than on the change itself but a feedback nonetheless.</p><p>This thread should contain enough matter for devs to chew on. Please let us know what kind of feedback is still needed for you to get back working on this. Thank you.</p>

[Mithren_Nexus]

<img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Kenban]

<cite>Ozfezza wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kenban wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Thank you for reading my reply, and actually replying to my post.  I appreciate that.  We'll have to agree to disagree, I suppose.  Although to be fair, you did respond as I had expected -- by saying that crusaders, et al, are tanks and therefore not needed.  To which I pose the question:  Perhaps rangers are also no longer needed.  I don't suppose that shoe fits so good when it's on one's own foot.  But I appreciate your post.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" />"></blockquote>Really there have been discussions about it on the ranger forums and other locations which would agree with you though.  Either fix the class or remove it.  This game really does have too many classes and its becoming very obvious the developers either can't handle or won't deal with 24 classes.  Its possible the only way to fix some of them is to combine them with other classes.  For example the Rangers and Assassins could be combined into just predators.</blockquote><p>Trying to combine posts a bit, not trying to be rude <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>Thank you Uros, I think we will agree to disagree for now. While we didn't reach agreement, I do agree that people actually reading posts before replying and enagaging in discussion is more helpful than negative generalities thrown back and forth. I would like to thank you for your input.</p><p>While crusaders et al may not be needed as tanks, I hope that you guys start getting more raiding love with your improved utility <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>I think that the gap we are having trouble crossing is that Rangers are pure DPS while crusaders et al can fill more than one role (altho the practicality or reality of this is debateable).</p><p>As to class removal, combining Assassins and Rangers would pose one huge issue - Assassins are mostly melee DPS while Rangers are mostly ranged DPS. While I do not wish it on them, but wouldn't perhaps bruisers or crusaders be more likely candidates for class combination? If it would mean that the combined class would get some much needed loving (similar to us Rangers) I think more would be for it than against ... but again I don't know any of these classes to knowledgeably comment.</p><p>For those suggesting Rangers are a utility class or shouldn't be T1 DPS, I am sorry but pls get an idea !</p><p>Please keep the constructive feedback coming - hopefully all this discussion will lead to a well balanced fix <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>It was late and I was tired or at least thats what I am going to blame.  I never bothered to post or write the other half of the post.  You allow the Predator to pick their primary source of DPS through AA trees or if you don't want to use AA's for the system replace the whole Master 2 system and again allow people to make choices about the class.  Which if you go back to when the game launched it was claimed that was the whole point of only allowing people to select one of 4 options every few levels to make choices which would make the character more powerful in an area.  If its done well neither class would change very much.  It would require more work now (a lot of work now) but do the changes at the same time as several other class rebuilds and it would be worth it.  Players suddenly get a lot more customizable characters and it should become a lot easier to balance classes in the long run.

[macsux]

Well I kinda expected this to happen. I was saying to everyone that Airlik's idea of a fix for arrows is a retroactive nurf on older gear - guess i was right.Well I lived through nurf after nurf to ranger class getting more and more depressed every time. Since last patch my game performance dropped to unsatisfactory levels - I donno [Removed for Content] you people do over there. Airlick, you are the worst thing that have ever happened to this game and I personally hate you for ruining the game for a lot of people. When these changes go live and I see any nurf to my class I'm positive this will push me over the edge and I'm putting this game on the shelf. Hope you enjoy alienating your player base further you nub. Here's a tip. Stop with nurfs and improve performance on PVP. Since writs went live it's being raid on raid which would be great if you could more then 3 spells per minute cuz of all the lag. I recently beginning to realize that this game is simply not entertaining anymore since it's being degenerating for a long time. Just my 2c

[Ranja]

I like everyone else am anxiously awaiting Aerlick's post today about how the changes were not right and they are being fixed. This is, however, not waht is going to happen. More than likely, this is what he will say:"Ranger were fine before, so I had to nerf your auto-attack to keep you in line when I fixed your arrows. I gave you a marginal group buff and fixed a CA (the hawk) that has been broken since release. I also upped the damage on your melee CAs because I wanted to up your damage on something but not anything that would allow you to keep up with assassins. Afterall, I have to keep up pretenses.It is my goal to not have any rangers around after this "fix", so my assassin can rule the parse. ALso, I dont understand why my assassin keeps losing to my guild ranger when I am nerfing rangers every update"I have an answer for ya on that last one: You suck at playing an assassin. And if your data shows that assassins and rangers are on equal footing, all of your assassins you are parsing suck.I jsut dont understand where they are getting their parse data from. It is like they parse the newbie island or something and everyone on the parse does like 1-2 k less than they should except rangers.

[Anekuh]

<p>There is no doubt the ranger community wants a dps fix. This thread proves it with over 130+ posts.</p><p>I am still hoping Aeralik will see our complaints and gives us a good fix. </p><p>I look forward to his response.</p>

[Tyberi]

Instead of increasing ranger auto attack DPS, the class with the least utility including the new group short term buff, from t7 to t8 <b><i>while using their mythical epic</i></b> they nerfed T7 and lower bows down a whole tier each to make the T8 bows and the Mythical epic <b><i>appear</i></b> to be doing a new tier of damage when compared after the update.What kind of change is that called?A Nerf.Now what part of decreasing bow proc chances and creating a new set of arrow mechanics to keep the same broken damage is a boost to rangers?The only boost rangers received is the ability to utilize a couple more procs, <b><i>which are also affected by the proc chance nerf</i></b> or gained the ability to proc a 100% damage addition which they should have been able to utilize since T6.The numbers have been run to death. The options available have been run to death.This update so far has consisted of nothing but a monumental <b><i>nerf</i></b> to ranged combat.And that is without getting into the revamped itemization from VP that is completely one sided in favor of options for melee DPS.

[jukka101]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote> I know its not exactly what you wanted from the fix but the gain you would have had would have put you far beyond any class.</blockquote>.....err Assasins

[Aeralik]

If you do not have anything constructive to say about arrows lets please keep it out of this thread please. Class bickering and derogatory remarks only end up cluttering the thread up making it difficult to find useful information. Which in turn means something can be missed or I spend more time trying to find useful info instead of fixing your concerns.

[44Dragon]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you do not have anything constructive to say about arrows lets please keep it out of this thread please. Class bickering and derogatory remarks only end up cluttering the thread up making it difficult to find useful information. Which in turn means something can be missed or I spend more time trying to find useful info instead of fixing your concerns.</blockquote><p>Does that mean that you spent your time reading this thread today, which left you with no time to update the odd damage rates or answer the burning question of where you as our main dev see Ranger dps in regards to other classes, specifically other Preditors?  I was hoping for an update on the test changes.</p><p>Let the forum mods do the moderating...you go test and code!</p>

[Anekuh]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you do not have anything constructive to say about arrows lets please keep it out of this thread please. Class bickering and derogatory remarks only end up cluttering the thread up making it difficult to find useful information. Which in turn means something can be missed or I spend more time trying to find useful info instead of fixing your concerns.</blockquote><p>I am not sure what more we can say to you. You need to look into our raid dps overall in comparison to assassins. How to fix this??? I'm not sure.</p><p>Maybe:</p><p>1) increase bow CAs reuse timers some</p><p>2) keep procs as they are</p><p>3) increase bow damage some by increasing actual bows</p><p>4) unify arrows into tiers instead of "crush or pirece damage". Have tier 8 arrows (with one damage) match with tier 8 bows</p>

[Anekuh]

<p>*Double post</p>

[Webin]

<cite>Pogralien@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you do not have anything constructive to say about arrows lets please keep it out of this thread please. Class bickering and derogatory remarks only end up cluttering the thread up making it difficult to find useful information. Which in turn means something can be missed or I spend more time trying to find useful info instead of fixing your concerns.</blockquote><p>Does that mean that you spent your time reading this thread today, which left you with no time to update the odd damage rates or answer the burning question of where you as our main dev see Ranger dps in regards to other classes, specifically other Preditors?  I was hoping for an update on the test changes.</p><p>Let the forum mods do the moderating...you go test and code!</p></blockquote>It means he scanned through the thread, looking for the constructive feedback some players are giving, and that it took longer than it should have because so many people are bickering about things that aren't narrowly categorized as the titular "Arrow Changes".Don't criticize the man for reading the thread.  He and the other devs get too much criticism for NOT reading threads, it seems like it's lose-lose for him either way.  Just let him do his work and make arrows right.And then ya'll can moan about DPS later.  Remember.... we asked for a fix to the arrow mechanics, not a bump in DPS.  That's exactly what he's given us (presumably, I haven't tested it).  If the arrow changes resulted in a drop in DPS that wasn't planned, he'll fix it.

[Anekuh]

<cite>Webin@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pogralien@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you do not have anything constructive to say about arrows lets please keep it out of this thread please. Class bickering and derogatory remarks only end up cluttering the thread up making it difficult to find useful information. Which in turn means something can be missed or I spend more time trying to find useful info instead of fixing your concerns.</blockquote><p>Does that mean that you spent your time reading this thread today, which left you with no time to update the odd damage rates or answer the burning question of where you as our main dev see Ranger dps in regards to other classes, specifically other Preditors?  I was hoping for an update on the test changes.</p><p>Let the forum mods do the moderating...you go test and code!</p></blockquote>It means he scanned through the thread, looking for the constructive feedback some players are giving, and that it took longer than it should have because so many people are bickering about things that aren't narrowly categorized as the titular "Arrow Changes".Don't criticize the man for reading the thread.  He and the other devs get too much criticism for NOT reading threads, it seems like it's lose-lose for him either way.  Just let him do his work and make arrows right.And then ya'll can moan about DPS later.  <b><u>Remember.... we asked for a fix to the arrow mechanics, not a bump in DPS.</u></b>  That's exactly what he's given us (presumably, I haven't tested it).  If the arrow changes resulted in a drop in DPS that wasn't planned, he'll fix it.</blockquote><p>Well, if the "fixed" arrows don't give a bump in dps, then we are wasting our time. Plus, rangers still need a dps bump anayway considering assassins are just running away in the dps department.</p>

[Anekuh]

<p>* Double post again (</p>

[HezakiaIsh]

Yes we asked for Arrows to be Fixed. He told us we were fine the way we were in regards to DPS.........my question therefore is WHY DID WE LOSE DPS ON T7-T8 Raid bows? Are Assasins taking a dmg reduction to every single Weapon they wield thus lowering there current DPS? I know its just on Test atm, but i would like to make sure this does not make it to live.  Theres no reason to [Removed for Content] a T7raid bow just to keep up with a T8 (group obtained) bow, and if thats your reasoning for the DPS drop in RSB then it makes no sense what so ever. RSB takes a full Raid force + clearing 3 floors in EH to obtain (@70) and Epic can be obtained with a sub par group. HUGE DIF.

[Boramyr]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you do not have anything constructive to say about arrows lets please keep it out of this thread please. Class bickering and derogatory remarks only end up cluttering the thread up making it difficult to find useful information. Which in turn means something can be missed or I spend more time trying to find useful info instead of fixing your concerns.</blockquote><p>I can sum it up for you.  </p><p>Much like Lucy holding the football in Peanuts we were told weeks ago that arrow mechanics were being fixed, and much like Charlie Brown we excitedly ran up to kick the football only to have it pulled away at the last minute in one of the worst Customer Service moves I've seen in recent memory.  </p><p>While Telling us Our DPS is fine you reduced Bow damage by 20%,  You Reduced proc chances by 48% on a 9 second delay weapon when procs are already normalized to proc the same regardless of weapons speed.   </p><p>For me this results in an almost 20% loss of DPS thus being 20% less than what you said was fine.  So regardless of weither or not you v. the majority of the ranger community agree on if our dps on live is fine these changes put us 20% below that.  </p><p>Then you give us access to procs that will add a nice amount of DPS assuming we get to group with the classes in question.   But this isn't worth loosing 20% base dps.  </p><p>Then we get two group buffs that are ok as long as we aren't grouped with the people that we can get the above procs from.  Which isn't worth the lose of 20% base dps. </p><p>Then we get +50 base CA damage which amounts to about 1% overall dps.  1%  <20%</p><p>So in summary we brought up a valid concern about the broken mechanic.  And in a move that I don't know how anyone that is smart enough to get a lead developer job can't see will alienate and enrage even the most loyal customer, you promise a fix, wait a few weeks for everyone to get excited and deliver a roughly 19% nerf in overall dps.   Less if we can group with a dirge or a wizard.  </p><p>Never once since I started this game on the day of launch have I ever thought about quitting,  even through the five straight months of nerfs last summer, even though gu13,  I supported the ranger DOF nerfs cause we really were broken, never once until I got home all excited friday hopped onto test to check out these changes and saw that we got a 20% freakin nerf.  </p>

[feldon30]

It just comes back around to, why in the world would I play a Ranger who has to move around constantly in combat to get close to mobs to do backstab, then far away to do different arrow attacks (which all have different ideal ranges) just to get the SAME damage as my Conjurer who has dumbfire pets and whose attacks can all be done at the same range?Aerilak has completely missed the point. With my Conjurer, I can Call of Hero, friend Invisy, friend Water Breathing, steal some health from my pet to heal another, kill my pet to heal the group, I have a very fast AoE which helps in some scripted events, etc. etc. Rangers have none of this. Rangers have NO utility, JUST damage. To make them have roughly the same damage as Wizards, Assassins, Conjurers, etc. shows a fundamental lack of understanding of class balance!!This shows that if you want to get something broken in EQ2 even worse than it already is, post a lot of threads asking SOE to fix it.P.S. I was getting outparsed by a swashbuckler last night. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />

[Ranja]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you do not have anything constructive to say about arrows lets please keep it out of this thread please. Class bickering and derogatory remarks only end up cluttering the thread up making it difficult to find useful information. Which in turn means something can be missed or I spend more time trying to find useful info instead of fixing your concerns.</blockquote>What [Removed for Content] me off to no end about this stuff is that he comments on the flames. There were plenty of legitimate questions in the thread, there were plenty of legitimate solutions offered in many threads and we never hear anything from him except to tell us to stop bickering.How about answering any of the questions that were posed over the past three weeks about our class.Should we be equal to assassins? If not, who should we be equal too?Where is the data that says were fine DPS wise? Let's see it.This is an epic fail if this makes it to live and I am almost positive it will. Nothing on test gets changed no matter how many people on test calmor about the changes.If we were fine, why did you lower our DPS?

[feldon30]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote><span class="postbody">If you do not have anything constructive to say about arrows lets please keep it out of this thread please. Class bickering and derogatory remarks only end up cluttering the thread up making it difficult to find useful information. Which in turn means something can be missed or I spend more time trying to find useful info instead of fixing your concerns.</span></blockquote>Please no more fixes! My ranger can't take it! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />In other news, this thread would benefit greatly from ignoring ignorant non-rangers who have come here merely to stir up trouble.

[Shaulin Dolamite]

<cite>Anekuh wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Webin@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pogralien@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you do not have anything constructive to say about arrows lets please keep it out of this thread please. Class bickering and derogatory remarks only end up cluttering the thread up making it difficult to find useful information. Which in turn means something can be missed or I spend more time trying to find useful info instead of fixing your concerns.</blockquote><p>Does that mean that you spent your time reading this thread today, which left you with no time to update the odd damage rates or answer the burning question of where you as our main dev see Ranger dps in regards to other classes, specifically other Preditors?  I was hoping for an update on the test changes.</p><p>Let the forum mods do the moderating...you go test and code!</p></blockquote>It means he scanned through the thread, looking for the constructive feedback some players are giving, and that it took longer than it should have because so many people are bickering about things that aren't narrowly categorized as the titular "Arrow Changes".Don't criticize the man for reading the thread.  He and the other devs get too much criticism for NOT reading threads, it seems like it's lose-lose for him either way.  Just let him do his work and make arrows right.And then ya'll can moan about DPS later.  <b><u>Remember.... we asked for a fix to the arrow mechanics, not a bump in DPS.</u></b>  That's exactly what he's given us (presumably, I haven't tested it).  If the arrow changes resulted in a drop in DPS that wasn't planned, he'll fix it.</blockquote><p>Well, if the "fixed" arrows don't give a bump in dps, then we are wasting our time. Plus, rangers still need a dps bump anayway considering assassins are just running away in the dps department.</p></blockquote>Agreed, if these arrow changes dont up the dps because of broken mechanics im done with eq2, Rangers are basicly still doing T7 dps if this fix leaves us at T7 dps then we got shafted where every other class in this game upgraded from T7 to T8!

[ReficulFonwaps]

<cite>gutti wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ReficulFonwaps wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Yeah if this guy is saying crusaders should be a secondary/utility tank class then maybe the same can be said for rangers being a utility dps class. You got a new group buff, that helps you fit better into your  "utility" type role, that imo suits you better.  Rangers are now a dps/utility class, so stop crying about your DPS, love it or leave it.</blockquote>Do you consider a assasin dps/utility since they have hate transfer? and nice lil poison proc?  25% hit chance buff for 15 sec every 1min 20sec, after they have fixed hit rates. How many zones does this even effect? I dont hear people saying "man i wish i had 25% hit chance for 15 sec on that last fight". This is far from actual utility please never say rangers are dps/utility.This thread is about arrows anyway isn't it? not utility.Whoever says rangers are not suppose to be t1 dps is just misinformed you must have missed the memo that was sent out couple years ago. T1 DPS( [I cannot control my vocabulary], Ranger, Wiz, Warlock) in no certain order.What dont you understand about that? If you dont know anything about arrows mechanics or have anything to say about arrows why are you even posting in this thread?</blockquote><p>I was trying to make the point that SOE has left crusaders broken for so long that people look at them as a secondary/utility tank class now. So it ticks me off when someone posts saying crusaders are <b>supposed</b> to be secondary tanks and not on par with guards.( when the game launched all tanks were supposed to be equal) The reaction you felt to my post is what is feels like to have the shoe on the other foot.</p><p>I do feel rangers need to be on par with assasin dps, but seeing the group buffs coming out, and dps not being fixed correctly starts to make me worry. If SOE leaves rangers broken long enough, and hands out some buffs, a couple years down the line people will have accepted the class as a dps/utility class, and never think twice about it, ie crusaders.</p><p>And yes I do have something to say about arrows, FIX ARROW MECHANICS IN '08!!</p>

[Shaulin Dolamite]

<cite>Boramyr wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you do not have anything constructive to say about arrows lets please keep it out of this thread please. Class bickering and derogatory remarks only end up cluttering the thread up making it difficult to find useful information. Which in turn means something can be missed or I spend more time trying to find useful info instead of fixing your concerns.</blockquote><p>I can sum it up for you.  </p><p>Much like Lucy holding the football in Peanuts we were told weeks ago that arrow mechanics were being fixed, and much like Charlie Brown we excitedly ran up to kick the football only to have it pulled away at the last minute in one of the worst Customer Service moves I've seen in recent memory.  </p><p><b><i>While Telling us Our DPS is fine you reduced Bow damage by 20%,  You Reduced proc chances by 48% on a 9 second delay weapon when procs are already normalized to proc the same regardless of weapons speed.   </i></b></p><p><b><i>For me this results in an almost 20% loss of DPS thus being 20% less than what you said was fine.  So regardless of weither or not you v. the majority of the ranger community agree on if our dps on live is fine these changes put us 20% below that.</i></b>  </p><p>Then you give us access to procs that will add a nice amount of DPS assuming we get to group with the classes in question.   But this isn't worth loosing 20% base dps.  </p><p>Then we get two group buffs that are ok as long as we aren't grouped with the people that we can get the above procs from.  Which isn't worth the lose of 20% base dps. </p><p>Then we get +50 base CA damage which amounts to about 1% overall dps.  1%  <20%</p><p>So in summary we brought up a valid concern about the broken mechanic.  And in a move that I don't know how anyone that is smart enough to get a lead developer job can't see will alienate and enrage even the most loyal customer, you promise a fix, wait a few weeks for everyone to get excited and deliver a roughly 19% nerf in overall dps.   Less if we can group with a dirge or a wizard.  </p><p>Never once since I started this game on the day of launch have I ever thought about quitting,  even through the five straight months of nerfs last summer, even though gu13,  I supported the ranger DOF nerfs cause we really were broken, never once until I got home all excited friday hopped onto test to check out these changes and saw that we got a 20% freakin nerf.  </p></blockquote>The comment in bold I sure would like an answer to. Aeralik can you honestly say you dont understand why the posts blow up the way they do????? Not but 2 weeks ago you said our dps was fine, which every ranger totally disagreed with, then you lower our dps, this leaves me and so many other furious. We cant trust a thing you say Aeralik because the very next week you may do a complete "U" turn on anyone.

[Lohkei]

Yeah the post I read the dev's said they was gonna fix arrows and raise ranger dps slightly and add some utility. I don't see this happening. Aeralik said the changes we wanted would put us far beyond other classes. I think we all just wanna be equal to or a bit closer in some fashion, certainly not decreased. I don't like the idea of focus aim being group wide as I will increase a swashy and assassin's killer meele dps. After we have a decrease. So far the issues brought up is not an incentive to play my ranger. I'd rather it stay broke then take a dps hit and have to take crap from the 20 other assassin's and 15 other swashy's in my guild.

[missionarymarr]

<cite>Webin@Befallen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Pogralien@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>If you do not have anything constructive to say about arrows lets please keep it out of this thread please. Class bickering and derogatory remarks only end up cluttering the thread up making it difficult to find useful information. Which in turn means something can be missed or I spend more time trying to find useful info instead of fixing your concerns.</blockquote><p>Does that mean that you spent your time reading this thread today, which left you with no time to update the odd damage rates or answer the burning question of where you as our main dev see Ranger dps in regards to other classes, specifically other Preditors?  I was hoping for an update on the test changes.</p><p>Let the forum mods do the moderating...you go test and code!</p></blockquote>It means he scanned through the thread, looking for the constructive feedback some players are giving, and that it took longer than it should have because so many people are bickering about things that aren't narrowly categorized as the titular "Arrow Changes".Don't criticize the man for reading the thread.  He and the other devs get too much criticism for NOT reading threads, it seems like it's lose-lose for him either way.  Just let him do his work and make arrows right.And then ya'll can moan about DPS later.  Remember.... we asked for a fix to the arrow mechanics, not a bump in DPS.  That's exactly what he's given us (presumably, I haven't tested it).  If the arrow changes resulted in a drop in DPS that wasn't planned, he'll fix it.</blockquote>Actually I don't agree with your statement. I believe what was asked for a fix for the arrow mechanics so Rangers could also enjoy an increased DPS from T7 to T8. Therefore I believe they were asking for a DPS bump for T8. When I heard they were fixing the arrow mechanic I assumed that all T7 bows would remain the same and that  T8 would then see a increase such that it would make sense to switch. Not the reverse that T7 would see a decrease in dps and T8 would stay about the same. I really feel that this whole situation again shows a disconnect between the players and the DEVs.

[Anekuh]

<blockquote>Actually I don't agree with your statement. I believe what was asked for a fix for the arrow mechanics so Rangers could also enjoy an increased DPS from T7 to T8. Therefore I believe they were asking for a DPS bump for T8. When I heard they were fixing the arrow mechanic I assumed that all T7 bows would remain the same and that  T8 would then see a increase such that it would make sense to switch. Not the reverse that T7 would see a decrease in dps and T8 would stay about the same. I really feel that this whole situation again shows <b><u>a disconnect between the players and the DEVs</u></b>.</blockquote>I agree. I never seen such a lack of communication between players and Devs (or in this case Aeralik). Aeralik will not gives us an idea of what he thinks the Ranger class should be. We have asked numerous times where the ranger class should be in regards to other classes.

[Aeralik]

The main goal of the change was to fix the ranged and arrow mechanics so that everything scales in a logical way. The main problem we noticed though in reviewing the mechanics was that just bumping the arrow level to 80 swung the pendulum in the other direction. So instead, we have taken a route where going forward things progress more naturally as one would expect. In the short term that means weapons like rigid scale bow will take a hit to the damage. From an item standpoint Rigid Scale bow was a bit of an anomaly. It has some really high settings which helped make it so powerful and univerally the best bow on live today even in vp. As a matter fact I have one on live so I am well aware of the changes its undergoing. RSB is a level 70 and T7 bow though. One would expect that the newer raid bows would be the better choice going forward which they now are. Since RSB did take a hit though we are looking to possibly improve a raid bow or two so that there is some sort of in between option for players which would keep their auto attack about the same as it is now. On the subject of procs, I have removed the maximum delay for normalization. However I also did remove the damage procs triggering from ranged as well. The ring proc is fine its beneficial and should have worked all along anyways.

[JAFO74]

<p>I am just curious if anyone compared melee weapons on live and test. The shift in bow damage looks a lot like a damage table change. If so it would have affected all weapons for our class/archetype, unless the damage table change only occurred on the ranged slot. In any case a 15%+ nerf to our ranged autoattack tables is pretty crazy.</p><p>The way it looks to me is the only "arrow problem" is the 20% accuracy nerf to field points. The arrow scaling is fixed. The copensitory nerf to our bow autoattack tables is where the real problem lies.</p><p> Iago</p>

[BigChiefJJ]

<p>The one thing that i have only seen brough up once or twice is the hit% adjustment that was done to the arrows - Why was the hit % adjusted? </p>

[Neiloch]

You know what might be a sweet buff for rangers to fix their raid DPS? Some sort of raid only buff where having it on in a raid, ups our overall DPS some how. Not sure exactly what it could do though. Maybe just the more people in a raid the more damage we do. Or just some sort of RA crit/RA DA and DPS self buff that only works if we are in a raid.Because I can see how you can say DPS is fine in a group or solo situation, I do just fine there. Rare occasion when I get caught off guard or not all my best CA's are refreshed when I might get 2nd or 3rd on the parse. But my raid DPS is just pathetic, its actually embarrassing.  I'm actually finding myself not wanting to go on raids just so the conjs/necros swashbucklers and in some cases bruisers can hand my butt to me on kills. I can almost feel the pity from my fellow raid members.And I can't believe for a second you genuinely think we just wanted to use T8 arrows and do the same amount of damage we are now. Thats like if a class wanted more HP, so you gave it to them but then made their defense worse to negate any sort of gain. I think you've used this whole arrow thing to your advantage, you've used it to give us a fix we've been asking for while at the same time not fixing our DPS which is what we wanted from an arrow fix in the first place.

[Anekuh]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>The main goal of the change was to fix the ranged and arrow mechanics so that everything scales in a logical way. The main problem we noticed though in reviewing the mechanics was that just bumping the arrow level to 80 swung the pendulum in the other direction. So instead, we have taken a route where going forward things progress more naturally as one would expect. In the short term that means weapons like rigid scale bow will take a hit to the damage. From an item standpoint Rigid Scale bow was a bit of an anomaly. It has some really high settings which helped make it so powerful and univerally the best bow on live today even in vp. As a matter fact I have one on live so I am well aware of the changes its undergoing. RSB is a level 70 and T7 bow though. One would expect that the newer raid bows would be the better choice going forward which they now are. Since RSB did take a hit though we are looking to possibly improve a raid bow or two so that there is some sort of in between option for players which would keep their auto attack about the same as it is now.On the subject of procs, I have removed the maximum delay for normalization. However I also did remove the damage procs triggering from ranged as well. The ring proc is fine its beneficial and should have worked all along anyways.</blockquote><p>This still does not answer our question: Our we (The range class) equal with the assassin class in terms of raid dps????</p><p>A yes or no would be wonderful and why you think so????</p><p>Please answer this. </p>

[Neiloch]

 dbl post, board seems to be lagging

[ZababEW]

pls Aeralik can u look at the auto attack dmg with bow, because after a few look between live and test on my toon we are a bit under the dmg im normaly doing on live. I loose like 100 ish dmg on my range dmg. I would to keep arrow hit%, we have a new skill that give 25% accuracy for 15sec but we loose 20% from arrow pls explain the change on hit % pls. Thx zabab

[jjlo69]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>The main goal of the change was to fix the ranged and arrow mechanics so that everything scales in a logical way. The main problem we noticed though in reviewing the mechanics was that just bumping the arrow level to 80 swung the pendulum in the other direction. So instead, we have taken a route where going forward things progress more naturally as one would expect. In the short term that means weapons like rigid scale bow will take a hit to the damage. From an item standpoint Rigid Scale bow was a bit of an anomaly. It has some really high settings which helped make it so powerful and univerally the best bow on live today even in vp. As a matter fact I have one on live so I am well aware of the changes its undergoing. RSB is a level 70 and T7 bow though. One would expect that the newer raid bows would be the better choice going forward which they now are. Since RSB did take a hit though we are looking to possibly improve a raid bow or two so that there is some sort of in between option for players which would keep their auto attack about the same as it is now.On the subject of procs, I have removed the maximum delay for normalization. However I also did remove the damage procs triggering from ranged as well. The ring proc is fine its beneficial and should have worked all along anyways.</blockquote><p>So before I rant I would like a clarification basicly your saying current in game bows are gonna get a boost to do on par dmg with what the rsb is current doing on live if not a little better. Secondly proc the dmage proc being remove altogether it that from the current changes or from all spells and items from here on out.. cause if the latter is the case that will be a nerf beyond nerfs basicly breaking the ranger worse then it was at launch</p><p>morzerk </p>

[Huugr]

<p>Can you put this more clearly please :</p><p> However I also did remove the damage procs triggering from ranged as well.</p><p>Those you added in the changes or all damage procs or what ? Just want to understand.</p>

[Boramyr]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>The main goal of the change was to fix the ranged and arrow mechanics so that everything scales in a logical way. The main problem we noticed though in reviewing the mechanics was that just bumping the arrow level to 80 swung the pendulum in the other direction. So instead, we have taken a route where going forward things progress more naturally as one would expect. In the short term that means weapons like rigid scale bow will take a hit to the damage. From an item standpoint Rigid Scale bow was a bit of an anomaly. It has some really high settings which helped make it so powerful and univerally the best bow on live today even in vp. As a matter fact I have one on live so I am well aware of the changes its undergoing. RSB is a level 70 and T7 bow though. One would expect that the newer raid bows would be the better choice going forward which they now are. Since RSB did take a hit though we are looking to possibly improve a raid bow or two so that there is some sort of in between option for players which would keep their auto attack about the same as it is now.On the subject of procs, I have removed the maximum delay for normalization. However I also did remove the damage procs triggering from ranged as well. The ring proc is fine its beneficial and should have worked all along anyways.</blockquote><p>I apreciate the change on the procs thank you.  </p><p>You still didn't answer my question if My dps on live right now is fine with a RSB then how is lowering my DPS by 9% keeping my dps fine.  If these arrow changes break our dps with our Mythical then fix the FRACKIN MYTHICAL don't nerf the 90% of rangers that won't see it this teir!  I'm sick and tired of Mid Level rangers getting Nerfed because of what the top 1% can do when our class cracks over one or two peices of gear.  </p>

[JAFO74]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>The main goal of the change was to fix the ranged and arrow mechanics so that everything scales in a logical way. The main problem we noticed though in reviewing the mechanics was that just bumping the arrow level to 80 swung the pendulum in the other direction. So instead, we have taken a route where going forward things progress more naturally as one would expect. In the short term that means weapons like rigid scale bow will take a hit to the damage. From an item standpoint Rigid Scale bow was a bit of an anomaly. It has some really high settings which helped make it so powerful and univerally the best bow on live today even in vp. As a matter fact I have one on live so I am well aware of the changes its undergoing. RSB is a level 70 and T7 bow though. One would expect that the newer raid bows would be the better choice going forward which they now are. Since RSB did take a hit though we are looking to possibly improve a raid bow or two so that there is some sort of in between option for players which would keep their auto attack about the same as it is now.On the subject of procs, I have removed the maximum delay for normalization. However I also did remove the damage procs triggering from ranged as well. The ring proc is fine its beneficial and should have worked all along anyways.</blockquote><p>Some good news there, Aeralik. The couple of extra damage procs we received were not even close to enough to compensate for the 40% hit in proc damage we were slated to take. I just posted a second ago, but if I may make a suggestion. If your intentions are to rebalance the existing bows, i don't think the solution is to change the tables they are on. Change their damage ratings to scale properly. Since arrows are no longer part of the calculation it should be easy enough to just put the bows back on the damage tables they were on before, and change their damage ratings to scale as you expect. That way there is no hidden mechanic, no head scratching on why bows are scaling different than melee damage. </p><p>I understand your points about the RSB being an anomaly. However that bow was balanced around being able to use tier appropriate arrows(tenderwoods). So a retroactive across the board nerf to a bows to rebalance the RSB which was balanced for the previous tier doesnt make a lot of sense. The people who were using this bow in T7 were likely using tenderwoods, or dt ammo so the built in arrow mechanic damage ceiling was not there. You had mentioned that a straight bump to arrow level would have been far too powerful. Explain how. My autoattack damage with RSB was 50-60% of my dps. If my damage is buffed by 20% with correct arrows, switching to the epic would net me about 5-7% increase overall dps including the da on the bow. I don't see how this is overpowered. IF the VP bows or the mythical epic themselves end up being way out of line then adjust the DR on the offending bows. A global change to bow damage tables to fix an itemization issue is a bad idea.</p><p> Iago</p>

[Shaulin Dolamite]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>The main goal of the change was to fix the ranged and arrow mechanics so that everything scales in a logical way. The main problem we noticed though in reviewing the mechanics was that just bumping the arrow level to 80 swung the pendulum in the other direction. So instead, we have taken a route where going forward things progress more naturally as one would expect. In the short term that means weapons like rigid scale bow will take a hit to the damage. From an item standpoint Rigid Scale bow was a bit of an anomaly. It has some really high settings which helped make it so powerful and univerally the best bow on live today even in vp. As a matter fact I have one on live so I am well aware of the changes its undergoing. RSB is a level 70 and T7 bow though. One would expect that the newer raid bows would be the better choice going forward which they now are. Since RSB did take a hit though we are looking to possibly improve a raid bow or two so that there is some sort of in between option for players which would keep their auto attack about the same as it is now.On the subject of procs, I have removed the maximum delay for normalization. However I also did remove the damage procs triggering from ranged as well. The ring proc is fine its beneficial and should have worked all along anyways.</blockquote>Honestly what might help us all the most is if Aeralik would just give us all his vision of what a ranger is in EQ2. Where we stand dps wise. Are we the twin of an assassin but just do our damage from ranged? If we knew what you all saw as our role we could all have alot better understand on what you are doing, most of what you have posted lately has left me speechless!

[Huugr]

<p>Sorry for semi out of topis post but i keep seeing this asked again and again and it is quite annoying.</p><p>It has been clearly said in the past and never changed since then that rangers are T1 DPS wise.</p><p>The very same post stated that cloth T1 DPS should be ahead of rangers.</p><p>I tried to find the post but could only find quotes of it.</p><p>If you do some search on the boards you will also see that ranger/assassin are almost always side to side when it comes to DPS which let us reasonnably assume that they should be very close DPS wise.</p><p>Please if you have more information on this than i do PM me with quotes and links. Thank you.</p>

[Rillifane Rallathil]

<p>Yes please elicidate on the removed damage procs bit...</p><p> There are a lot of ways that can be interpreted...it's probably just bad wording on your part...since you've never done anything so amazingly stupid it's a wonder you still have your job before...</p><p>If you spell it out we'll all know we can still love you as much as you deserve <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</p>

[ZababEW]

as far as i remember ranger are supposed to be a t1 dps with assasin, warlock and wiz. Unfortunatly with many parse and many raid to proove it we are the lowest dps of all class who are supposed to be t1. I seen often rogue class do way more then ranger in dps. we talk about wasy 1500dps +.

[Kenban]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>The main goal of the change was to fix the ranged and arrow mechanics so that everything scales in a logical way. The main problem we noticed though in reviewing the mechanics was that just bumping the arrow level to 80 swung the pendulum in the other direction. So instead, we have taken a route where going forward things progress more naturally as one would expect. In the short term that means weapons like rigid scale bow will take a hit to the damage. From an item standpoint Rigid Scale bow was a bit of an anomaly. It has some really high settings which helped make it so powerful and univerally the best bow on live today even in vp. As a matter fact I have one on live so I am well aware of the changes its undergoing. RSB is a level 70 and T7 bow though. One would expect that the newer raid bows would be the better choice going forward which they now are. Since RSB did take a hit though we are looking to possibly improve a raid bow or two so that there is some sort of in between option for players which would keep their auto attack about the same as it is now. On the subject of procs, I have removed the maximum delay for normalization. However I also did remove the damage procs triggering from ranged as well. The ring proc is fine its beneficial and should have worked all along anyways.</blockquote>Crazy question if these procs are overpowered for a ranger why don't you just add a line about how procs 2.0 times a minute if not ranger.  Procs 1.0 times if ranger.  Based on the fact that Focus Aim can already buff based on people not being a ranger the code should already be in place.  That way it still adds something for rangers but its not an overpowering addition.I don't have a clue what the real proc rates are I just used nice round numbers.

[Sinful One]

So will T8 bows be doing any more damage now? or they gonna be stuck doing old T7 damage?If no change please say so i can betray now so i can do what a T1 dps class is SUPPOSEED to do, Thanks

[Effidian]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>The main goal of the change was to fix the ranged and arrow mechanics so that everything scales in a logical way. The main problem we noticed though in reviewing the mechanics was that just bumping the arrow level to 80 swung the pendulum in the other direction. So instead, we have taken a route where going forward things progress more naturally as one would expect. In the short term that means weapons like rigid scale bow will take a hit to the damage. From an item standpoint Rigid Scale bow was a bit of an anomaly. It has some really high settings which helped make it so powerful and univerally the best bow on live today even in vp. As a matter fact I have one on live so I am well aware of the changes its undergoing. RSB is a level 70 and T7 bow though. One would expect that the newer raid bows would be the better choice going forward which they now are. Since RSB did take a hit though we are looking to possibly improve a raid bow or two so that there is some sort of in between option for players which would keep their auto attack about the same as it is now.On the subject of procs, I have removed the maximum delay for normalization. However I also did remove the damage procs triggering from ranged as well. The ring proc is fine its beneficial and should have worked all along anyways.</blockquote><p>2 questions: </p><p>1) Please help us understand why you think bow damage would be too high.  Here is an example:</p><p>Eagle's Talon (Fabled)Damage: 215-862Delay: 9DR: 119.7</p><p>v.s.</p><p>Fang of Ichor (Fabled)Damage: 77 - 306Delay: 4DR: 95.8</p><p>CarotidcutterDamage: 74 - 297Delay: 4DR: 92.7</p><p>Dual Weilding (Fang of Ichor and Carotidcutter)Damage: 151 - 603 ((77+74) - (306-297))Delay: 5.32 (4 * 1.33)DR: 141.72 ((Min+Max)/Delay)</p><p>How is is that letting the Eagle's Talon do the damage it says on the weapon will make us overpowered?</p><p>2) About procs, first thanks for removing the normalization cap.  I'd rather just not be able to use them, then to have to deal with that type of mechanic.  But, by allowing Ranger's to use all these proc buffs that currently don't work on Ranged attacks, you would make it so that we gain the same advantage that Assasins (and all other melee classes) do from those procs.  How is that overpowering us?  You apparently see some number that say that we are okay, I can only ask that you share that information with us, because we just aren't seeing that.  Please share your data so we can understand what it is you are seeing that we aren't.</p>

[jrisley69]

mother of god, i've almost had it.   I'm a DAY 1 RANGER!!!!!  from the day eq2 came out i've played a ranger.  i've gone though every fricking nerf and possible knockdown and kept this toon as a main.  SERIOUSLY SOE/AERILIK (whatever you spell your name as).  I'm at the point where i'm just fed up bro.  SO RSB WAS SCALED TO BE AN UBER BOW 1 YEAR AGO IN EOF AND THE T7 BOWS MUST BE NERFED!!!!!  How are we to pay for that now since it was the dev's fault.  ARROWS TIERS WERE COMPLETELY SCREWED UP.    How are we to pay for that since it was the dev's fault.  2 Major issues, completely the dev's fault.  not us.  We did not create this game.  we did not code this game.  we did not sit in an board room eating hot pockets and decide "rangers are fine" years ago, then come back and say "o jee wiz, guess we kinda messed up on that coding or what-not.  let's fix it and in the meantime nerf the rangers because we cant take responsibility for the  mistakes we made years ago."  OMG, the answers we are getting is like me teaching a kindergarden class and telling them 2+2 = Chair.   Suspend me or ban me from these boards.  i honestly dont care anymore.

[TwistedFaith]

Just have everyone betray to a assasin and be done  with it. Someone mentioned in this thread about t he top 1% of rangers doing great dmg, well believe  me that is nothing compared to an assasin with a  mythical, which along with guardians is head and s houlders beyond any rival class. 

[JenoLT]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>The main goal of the change was to fix the ranged and arrow mechanics so that everything scales in a logical way. The main problem we noticed though in reviewing the mechanics was that just bumping the arrow level to 80 swung the pendulum in the other direction. So instead, we have taken a route where going forward things progress more naturally as one would expect. In the short term that means weapons like rigid scale bow will take a hit to the damage. From an item standpoint Rigid Scale bow was a bit of an anomaly. It has some really high settings which helped make it so powerful and univerally the best bow on live today even in vp. As a matter fact I have one on live so I am well aware of the changes its undergoing. RSB is a level 70 and T7 bow though. One would expect that the newer raid bows would be the better choice going forward which they now are. Since RSB did take a hit though we are looking to possibly improve a raid bow or two so that there is some sort of in between option for players which would keep their auto attack about the same as it is now. On the subject of procs, I have removed the maximum delay for normalization. However I also did remove the damage procs triggering from ranged as well. The ring proc is fine its beneficial and should have worked all along anyways.</blockquote>Thanks for removing the proc cap. I'd rather keep my procs as they are, instead of having to have a dirge/wizard with me to get my old damage back.The utility on Focus Aim is appreciated as well, thanks.So the only thing that was "fixed" with arrows now is bows are improving from tier to tier? Which means that people with RSB are forced to get their epic (or any other T8 bow) to improve on dps, or in other words: decreasing the damage on sub-t8 bows. This won't help rangers in any way, but at least it's logical now (not to mention that Rangers still haven't got a dps-increase since the last tier)So this so-called fix leaves some crying rangers with RSB, who have to upgrade now, and some with T8 bows who aren't affected at all. I just can repeat the question here:What is a rangers role in this game?

[Rulnest]

<p>Just a quick statement and question.</p><p>Most people quest and raid to improve themselves and their characters not in order to prevent the nerf bat from nocking them back to the ice age( makes you feel like your rideing a stationary bicycle, working hard and not getting anywhere).</p><p>Was everyones ranged dps nerfed or just rangers?  or in other words will all other tanks and scouts auto attack for more then rangers now?</p><p>Rulanger 80 ranger Permafrost.</p>

[Eldrie]

<p>On the subject of proc changes, please clarify, as others have asked. If you are making it so that the damage portion of Cacaphony of Blades does not proc on ranged, can you explain the logic behind such a change? Cacaphony and its lower level counterparts proc damage on 100% of hits. Thus, faster weapons will always do more damage with CoB than slower ones (dpm from CoB = CoB amount * # swings per minute). It is therefore not possible for rangers to get "more" out of CoB than those who wield faster weapons. It seems entirely illogical, from a pure mechanics standpoint, for CoB not to proc on ranged, and furthermore, now is as good a time as any to finally fix this disparity between melee and ranged classes before it grows larger in future expansions.</p><p>Additionally, the explanation in your most recent post is vague, and worrisome at best. You have not addressed the downward scaling of bow damage on test aside from that of the RSB. Are other bows still going to have their damage scaled downwards? I sincerely hope that is not the case, as it does not make any sense. Nor does the downward scaling of the RSB, for that matter, but if only that one item is going to be touched, then there is relatively little harm done as the fabled ranger epic should produce roughly equivalent DPS to the currently live version of the RSB once ammo no longer causes a reduction in damage potential.</p><p>Please provide some clarification of your changes, and what you intend from them, so that we may test them and respond appropriately.</p>

[Hamervelder]

<cite>Kenban wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>Thank you for reading my reply, and actually replying to my post.  I appreciate that.  We'll have to agree to disagree, I suppose.  Although to be fair, you did respond as I had expected -- by saying that crusaders, et al, are tanks and therefore not needed.  To which I pose the question:  Perhaps rangers are also no longer needed.  I don't suppose that shoe fits so good when it's on one's own foot.  But I appreciate your post.  <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /></blockquote>Really there have been discussions about it on the ranger forums and other locations which would agree with you though.  Either fix the class or remove it.  <i>This game really does have too many classes and its becoming very obvious the developers either can't handle or won't deal with 24 classes.  Its possible the only way to fix some of them is to combine them with other classes.</i>  For example the Rangers and Assassins could be combined into just predators.</blockquote>Oh, I fully agree with you there.  No arguments.  As for rangers, you know, when I want to just go <i>pulverize</i> stuff, and feel amazing for killing stuff in 1 or 2 shots, I grab my ranger.  <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 

[Hamervelder]

<cite>Anekuh wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>I'm not trolling at all, friend.  Nor do I really need attention from you, or anyone else.  I simply made a point: It doesn't matter what the developers do, some people just won't be happy.  This has been going on for months and months.  And when someone disagrees with the loud majority, what happens?  "You don't know what you're talking about."  "You're an idiot."  "You're trolling."  The list goes on and on.  As one developer said some time ago, your class has dominated DPS throughout EQ2's history, even with mechanics working against you.  Like it or not, <i>rangers do not need a "fix"</i>.  Would it be nice to see you get one?  Sure.  It's great to see any class get attention.  Even though I personally believe your class is still overpowered in some regards, boosting the ranger class can only help everyone else, by giving you more to bring to the group or raid.  So let's drop the peremptory challenges, hmm?  Your class isn't broken, and never has been. So you may not feel as desirable on raids as other classes.  So you may have to work harder to get and maintain a spot in your raid.  Welcome to the world of being a monk.  Or a bruiser.  Or a shadowknight.  Or a paladin.  All classes with much bigger problems, and much less demand than rangers.   What if, like crusaders and brawlers, the developers have decided that your class is not high on the list of raid-desired classes?  I suppose that you'd have to lump it, just like the rest of us who play the classes that I mentioned.  If, as seems to be the predominant view among rangers, your class is broken and in need of attention, so are all of those classes.  What you, and so many other rangers fail to realize is just how good you have it.  Do you know how difficult it is for brawlers and crusaders to get spots in raiding guilds?  It's nigh impossible.  "But you're tanks.  They don't need you.", you may reply.  To which I may respond, perhaps your days of being the top scout class are over.  Look at the big picture, my friend.  Your class is just fine.Have a nice evening.</blockquote></blockquote><p>Your arguement is flawed. You are comparing apples to oranges. Rangers cannot be compared to crusaders or monks. We are compared to one class: assassins. We are there opposite and therefore we should be doing the same (or close to) damage as they do in raid settings. So, to say we are not broken is plain BS. We are not doing the same dps output as assassins. That is a fact at this moment.</p><p>This is our chance to tell Aeralik that we need a fix. If you want your class to be fix, then post it on your class forums.</p></blockquote>I think you missed the point.  Perhaps if I put it in a different way?  What I'm getting at, is that perhaps your perception of what your class is intended to be, is not what the developers intend for your class to be anymore.  At some point, every class's role has changed, and we've all found ourselves having to adjust.  Perhaps your role is changing, and you must either change with it, or roll a new class.

[JenoLT]

<cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Anekuh wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>I'm not trolling at all, friend.  Nor do I really need attention from you, or anyone else.  I simply made a point: It doesn't matter what the developers do, some people just won't be happy.  This has been going on for months and months.  And when someone disagrees with the loud majority, what happens?  "You don't know what you're talking about."  "You're an idiot."  "You're trolling."  The list goes on and on.  As one developer said some time ago, your class has dominated DPS throughout EQ2's history, even with mechanics working against you.  Like it or not, <i>rangers do not need a "fix"</i>.  Would it be nice to see you get one?  Sure.  It's great to see any class get attention.  Even though I personally believe your class is still overpowered in some regards, boosting the ranger class can only help everyone else, by giving you more to bring to the group or raid.  So let's drop the peremptory challenges, hmm?  Your class isn't broken, and never has been. So you may not feel as desirable on raids as other classes.  So you may have to work harder to get and maintain a spot in your raid.  Welcome to the world of being a monk.  Or a bruiser.  Or a shadowknight.  Or a paladin.  All classes with much bigger problems, and much less demand than rangers.   What if, like crusaders and brawlers, the developers have decided that your class is not high on the list of raid-desired classes?  I suppose that you'd have to lump it, just like the rest of us who play the classes that I mentioned.  If, as seems to be the predominant view among rangers, your class is broken and in need of attention, so are all of those classes.  What you, and so many other rangers fail to realize is just how good you have it.  Do you know how difficult it is for brawlers and crusaders to get spots in raiding guilds?  It's nigh impossible.  "But you're tanks.  They don't need you.", you may reply.  To which I may respond, perhaps your days of being the top scout class are over.  Look at the big picture, my friend.  Your class is just fine.Have a nice evening.</blockquote></blockquote><p>Your arguement is flawed. You are comparing apples to oranges. Rangers cannot be compared to crusaders or monks. We are compared to one class: assassins. We are there opposite and therefore we should be doing the same (or close to) damage as they do in raid settings. So, to say we are not broken is plain BS. We are not doing the same dps output as assassins. That is a fact at this moment.</p><p>This is our chance to tell Aeralik that we need a fix. If you want your class to be fix, then post it on your class forums.</p></blockquote>I think you missed the point.  Perhaps if I put it in a different way?  What I'm getting at, is that perhaps your perception of what your class is intended to be, is not what the developers intend for your class to be anymore.  At some point, every class's role has changed, and we've all found ourselves having to adjust.  Perhaps your role is changing, and you must either change with it, or roll a new class.</blockquote>Could you please move this discussion to another thread? It's off-topic and just makes this thread more difficult to read.Thanks in advance.

[Anekuh]

<cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Anekuh wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Uros@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote>I'm not trolling at all, friend.  Nor do I really need attention from you, or anyone else.  I simply made a point: It doesn't matter what the developers do, some people just won't be happy.  This has been going on for months and months.  And when someone disagrees with the loud majority, what happens?  "You don't know what you're talking about."  "You're an idiot."  "You're trolling."  The list goes on and on.  As one developer said some time ago, your class has dominated DPS throughout EQ2's history, even with mechanics working against you.  Like it or not, <i>rangers do not need a "fix"</i>.  Would it be nice to see you get one?  Sure.  It's great to see any class get attention.  Even though I personally believe your class is still overpowered in some regards, boosting the ranger class can only help everyone else, by giving you more to bring to the group or raid.  So let's drop the peremptory challenges, hmm?  Your class isn't broken, and never has been. So you may not feel as desirable on raids as other classes.  So you may have to work harder to get and maintain a spot in your raid.  Welcome to the world of being a monk.  Or a bruiser.  Or a shadowknight.  Or a paladin.  All classes with much bigger problems, and much less demand than rangers.   What if, like crusaders and brawlers, the developers have decided that your class is not high on the list of raid-desired classes?  I suppose that you'd have to lump it, just like the rest of us who play the classes that I mentioned.  If, as seems to be the predominant view among rangers, your class is broken and in need of attention, so are all of those classes.  What you, and so many other rangers fail to realize is just how good you have it.  Do you know how difficult it is for brawlers and crusaders to get spots in raiding guilds?  It's nigh impossible.  "But you're tanks.  They don't need you.", you may reply.  To which I may respond, perhaps your days of being the top scout class are over.  Look at the big picture, my friend.  Your class is just fine.Have a nice evening.</blockquote></blockquote><p>Your arguement is flawed. You are comparing apples to oranges. Rangers cannot be compared to crusaders or monks. We are compared to one class: assassins. We are there opposite and therefore we should be doing the same (or close to) damage as they do in raid settings. So, to say we are not broken is plain BS. We are not doing the same dps output as assassins. That is a fact at this moment.</p><p>This is our chance to tell Aeralik that we need a fix. If you want your class to be fix, then post it on your class forums.</p></blockquote>I think you missed the point.  Perhaps if I put it in a different way?  What I'm getting at, is that perhaps your perception of what your class is intended to be, is not what the developers intend for your class to be anymore.  At some point, every class's role has changed, and we've all found ourselves having to adjust.  Perhaps your role is changing, and you must either change with it, or roll a new class.</blockquote><p>I would rather here it from the source actually. If Aeralik thinks we should not be on equal footing as Assassins, then so be it. </p><p>The problem I have is that Aeralik is not comparing our class at all. He is just simply using the mechanics of the game to fix the issue instead of a raid wide model where buffs and everything else come into play. Also, I'm sure he is using the Mythical Epic and not anything else. There is a HUGE dropoff in raid bows from Mythical. Sadly, the next best bow is RSB which is tier 7 which is so wrong. </p><p>So, there is another hidden issue that Aeralik is overlooking, and that is tier 8 bows are not scaling properly. Simply nerfing the RSB will not solve our dps issue. Tier 8 bows need to be adjusted including the Fabled Epic.</p>

[missionarymarr]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>The main goal of the change was to fix the ranged and arrow mechanics so that everything scales in a logical way. The main problem we noticed though in reviewing the mechanics was that just bumping the arrow level to 80 swung the pendulum in the other direction. So instead, we have taken a route where going forward things progress more naturally as one would expect. In the short term that means weapons like rigid scale bow will take a hit to the damage. From an item standpoint Rigid Scale bow was a bit of an anomaly. It has some really high settings which helped make it so powerful and univerally the best bow on live today even in vp. As a matter fact I have one on live so I am well aware of the changes its undergoing. RSB is a level 70 and T7 bow though. One would expect that the newer raid bows would be the better choice going forward which they now are. Since RSB did take a hit though we are looking to possibly improve a raid bow or two so that there is some sort of in between option for players which would keep their auto attack about the same as it is now.On the subject of procs, I have removed the maximum delay for normalization. However I also did remove the damage procs triggering from ranged as well. The ring proc is fine its beneficial and should have worked all along anyways.</blockquote>You see I take this response and think you just saw this as another way to nerf the Ranger. I think as everyone has been asking it is time for you start posting some of the numbers that make you think Rangers are fine or where you think they should be. All the numbers I have seen have shown that the rangers aren't were they should be and that this change is going to make it worse. I am not sure why you can't understand the problem myself. The problem is every other class got a DPS increase with T8 but the ranger didn't yet it seems you want to continue this and make it worse.

[Boramyr]

<p>Ok so we did an easy raid tonight on Protectors Realm. I made sure the groups were set up with the assasin and myself having roughly the same buffs.  Zone Wide he had 130 dps on me.  I had told him I was parsing for this thread so he would try as hard as he could and I tried as hard as I could.   Now I will say on the trash he outparsed me by 1000 each, but I shined on the named, especially the joust named.   So at least for tonight in PR Arelik is right at least between one of my guild assassin and me.  </p><p>Now I did some number crunching and the straight /weapon reduction from RSB/UD on Live and ET/Ferrite on Test I showed a 13.1% loss in autoattack dps, which zone wide tonight is 41% of my overall DPS wich is 5.4% loss in DPS.  Best I can estimate the double attack on the ET will amount to 1.6% and the CA boost 1% based on the effect of the Maestro's flame.  I realy can't say on the ET and RSB procs which would do more but I figure they have to be negligable difference.   So for me this change amounts to about a 3.8% loss in Dps.  I didn't account for the -5% chance to hit because I'm not sure how that is affected by the change in Melee hit rates.  </p><p> So for my numbers Aerlik I'm roughly ok with the amount of DPS I do versus Assassins, but I don't like the idea of loosing at least 4% dps at 5 silver a shot.  </p><p>I'm still really upset that anything called a FIX results in a net loss of dps.   For what its worth the proc changes with this would have resulted in a 9% dps loss.  </p><p>So I guess Up the dps of all the level 80 fabled bows by 5% and I'll be ok with this change. </p>

[Effidian]

<cite>Boramyr wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok so we did an easy raid tonight on Protectors Realm. I made sure the groups were set up with the assasin and myself having roughly the same buffs.  Zone Wide he had 130 dps on me.  I had told him I was parsing for this thread so he would try as hard as he could and I tried as hard as I could.   Now I will say on the trash he outparsed me by 1000 each, but I shined on the named, especially the joust named.   So at least for tonight in PR Arelik is right at least between one of my guild assassin and me.  </p></blockquote>Did you have the tank do the parse?  If you are running a parse, and you joust out, it will lose data, making your parse invalid.  You end up looking great, but you stop getting data for others.  I can never parse PR when jousting, because of this issue.

[ReficulFonwaps]

I am not a ranger, nor a rocket scientist, but it doesn't take either one to see the obvious fix here is to up the damage on t8 bows to fix the scaling, not nerf the t7 bows. This would fix both the scaling and put rangers more on par with assasin dps as they should be.

[Boramyr]

<cite>Effidian wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boramyr wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok so we did an easy raid tonight on Protectors Realm. I made sure the groups were set up with the assasin and myself having roughly the same buffs.  Zone Wide he had 130 dps on me.  I had told him I was parsing for this thread so he would try as hard as he could and I tried as hard as I could.   Now I will say on the trash he outparsed me by 1000 each, but I shined on the named, especially the joust named.   So at least for tonight in PR Arelik is right at least between one of my guild assassin and me.  </p></blockquote>Did you have the tank do the parse?  If you are running a parse, and you joust out, it will lose data, making your parse invalid.  You end up looking great, but you stop getting data for others.  I can never parse PR when jousting, because of this issue.</blockquote>no, but my parse was roughly the same as the assassin's parse. 

[ReficulFonwaps]

<cite>Boramyr wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Effidian wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boramyr wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok so we did an easy raid tonight on Protectors Realm. I made sure the groups were set up with the assasin and myself having roughly the same buffs.  Zone Wide he had 130 dps on me.  I had told him I was parsing for this thread so he would try as hard as he could and I tried as hard as I could.   Now I will say on the trash he outparsed me by 1000 each, but I shined on the named, especially the joust named.   So at least for tonight in PR Arelik is right at least between one of my guild assassin and me.  </p></blockquote>Did you have the tank do the parse?  If you are running a parse, and you joust out, it will lose data, making your parse invalid.  You end up looking great, but you stop getting data for others.  I can never parse PR when jousting, because of this issue.</blockquote>no, but my parse was roughly the same as the assassin's parse.  </blockquote>Telling us your parse was the same as the assasin says nothing. I see some assasins parse 2-3k, and others parse 6-7k, rather vague, post some numbers.

[Anekuh]

<cite>Boramyr wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Effidian wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Boramyr wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Ok so we did an easy raid tonight on Protectors Realm. I made sure the groups were set up with the assasin and myself having roughly the same buffs.  Zone Wide he had 130 dps on me.  I had told him I was parsing for this thread so he would try as hard as he could and I tried as hard as I could.   Now I will say on the trash he outparsed me by 1000 each, but I shined on the named, especially the joust named.   So at least for tonight in PR Arelik is right at least between one of my guild assassin and me.  </p></blockquote>Did you have the tank do the parse?  If you are running a parse, and you joust out, it will lose data, making your parse invalid.  You end up looking great, but you stop getting data for others.  I can never parse PR when jousting, because of this issue.</blockquote>no, but my parse was roughly the same as the assassin's parse.  </blockquote><p>I really wish you would just post the ACT figures of both classes and ZW.</p>

[gutti]

How is making my eagle talon worse then it is on live fixing anything? Btw we don't need a dev to tell us that we are t1 dps quit asking that, we are we have been since day 1. I could care less about this buff if bows don't scale back to were they should be. Making a bow that we have had for over a year worse thats fixing a problem? Also even if he does say where we should be, we still don't and wont measure up in comparison to those other classes. The only thing i have seen from this so far is smoke n mirrors tactic, im not gonna buy into this focus aim hype its not even that great at all it , assasins still would and will have more utility and dps then us. Im pretty simplistic person i just wanted my dps to go from t7 to t8 how hard is that why is this such a big deal?

[Boramyr]

<p>Well I already closes the parser and I really don't feel like going back and digging it up but his parse was around 2950 and mine around 2830 zone wide,  His best spike was 5200 and my best spike was 4200.  I had and Illusiionsist and a coercer buffing me with arm and 200% dps and 200% haste and was using the 4% double attack potions,  He had an illusionsit and a fury and a troub and was using the 8 melee crit potions, throatripper and the assassin fabled epic.  Our guild is working on Leviathan but hasn't beat him yet.  If the numbers are different in VP then maybe they are different in VP.  If you read my qualifier I said for me and my guild on this night in this zone this is how the numbers looked. </p><p>Heck I started this whole thread I'll fight a nerf to the end as long as its a nerf.  And honestly if there were more trashmobs the numbers might have been a bit different.  </p>

[Sydares]

If the -20% has been corrected as well, I'm satisfied, as that's essentially all that we asked for. Yes, we don't gain a [Removed for Content] thing, and that's disappointing. But at least it's framework for the future, so maybe in some distant faroff world, we can upgrade our bows next tier.

[Drodin]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>The main goal of the change was to fix the ranged and arrow mechanics so that everything scales in a logical way. The main problem we noticed though in reviewing the mechanics was that just bumping the arrow level to 80 swung the pendulum in the other direction. So instead, we have taken a route where going forward things progress more naturally as one would expect. In the short term that means weapons like rigid scale bow will take a hit to the damage. From an item standpoint Rigid Scale bow was a bit of an anomaly. It has some really high settings which helped make it so powerful and univerally the best bow on live today even in vp. As a matter fact I have one on live so I am well aware of the changes its undergoing. RSB is a level 70 and T7 bow though. One would expect that the newer raid bows would be the better choice going forward which they now are. Since RSB did take a hit though we are looking to possibly improve a raid bow or two so that there is some sort of in between option for players which would keep their auto attack about the same as it is now. On the subject of procs, I have removed the maximum delay for normalization. However I also did remove the damage procs triggering from ranged as well. The ring proc is fine its beneficial and should have worked all along anyways.</blockquote>Even if the results of this come out even to where we are on live, it will be good to know we are performing at a more intended level than before, no matter how sub-par that may be.  Having T7 weapons across the board, and thus parsing lower than our evil counterpart is frustrating.  But if T8 weapons (I still dont see a solid upgrade to Maestro or BotHowler, but the VP sheild revamp might not be finished yet so those shields may see a tweak yet? plz) will just put us where we are now after playing catchup from an overpowered bow in the past, then so be it. the closure will be nice at least.  But from the extensive interest in this now, makes me think we'll end up ok eventually.Now I havent started up Test yet, but I sent the copy over and plan to check it out first hand this week.  So far this really is what I was expecting from all these changes when I first heard they were happening.  I'm happy to see the normalization cap gone, that was the only concern I'd seen from the feedback so far.  The new proc options we are getting, and everything else with ammo and such is a big change, and I'd rather this be a progressive fix than an overfix followed by another massive nerf, thanks for taking care of the situation as it should be.  Although, it's hard for us to remain patient after so long... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />One thing I would like to suggest is having either one of the VP bows, or any T8 bow (maybe Shard of Hate? )be able to summon ammo to upgrade the DT ammo. ( I suppose a throwing weapon would need to be added too that does the same thing.)  Because arrows are super expensive to buy in bulk.  It's an enormous strain out of our pockets that no other class has to match.  I suppose the mythical weapon is a close comprimise, but having an unlimited upgrade to ammo from a raid is something that has been missing since KOS and is not something a lot of people want to be without.

[Ruldayen]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>The main goal of the change was to fix the ranged and arrow mechanics so that everything scales in a logical way. The main problem we noticed though in reviewing the mechanics was that just bumping the arrow level to 80 swung the pendulum in the other direction. So instead, we have taken a route where going forward things progress more naturally as one would expect. In the short term that means weapons like rigid scale bow will take a hit to the damage. From an item standpoint Rigid Scale bow was a bit of an anomaly. It has some really high settings which helped make it so powerful and univerally the best bow on live today even in vp. As a matter fact I have one on live so I am well aware of the changes its undergoing. RSB is a level 70 and T7 bow though. One would expect that the newer raid bows would be the better choice going forward which they now are. Since RSB did take a hit though we are looking to possibly improve a raid bow or two so that there is some sort of in between option for players which would keep their auto attack about the same as it is now.On the subject of procs, I have removed the maximum delay for normalization. However I also did remove the damage procs triggering from ranged as well. The ring proc is fine its beneficial and should have worked all along anyways.</blockquote><p>I think keeping the proc thing out of it is a good thing. Lets balance the arrows bows and CAs first then maybe look at procs. </p><p>Are you going to lower are AA bow damage and incease are CAs so are damage mix is closer to other classes ? Or something else?  If so what information do you need from us ? </p><p>Ruldayen </p>

[Dejah]

<cite>Boramyr wrote:</cite><blockquote>Ok so we did an easy raid tonight on Protectors Realm. I made sure the groups were set up with the assasin and myself having roughly the same buffs.  Zone Wide he had 130 dps on me.  I had told him I was parsing for this thread so he would try as hard as he could and I tried as hard as I could.   Now I will say on the trash he outparsed me by 1000 each, but I shined on the named, especially the joust named.   So at least for tonight in PR Arelik is right at least between one of my guild assassin and me.  </blockquote><cite>Boramyr wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well I already closes the parser and I really don't feel like going back and digging it up but his parse was around 2950 and mine around 2830 zone wide,  His best spike was 5200 and my best spike was 4200.  I had and Illusiionsist and a coercer buffing me with arm and 200% dps and 200% haste and was using the 4% double attack potions,  He had an illusionsit and a fury and a troub and was using the 8 melee crit potions, throatripper and the assassin fabled epic.  Our guild is working on Leviathan but hasn't beat him yet.  If the numbers are different in VP then maybe they are different in VP.  If you read my qualifier I said for me and my guild on this night in this zone this is how the numbers looked. </blockquote><p>What do you two normally parse relative to each other one live?  </p><p>BTW, you did do Protector's Realm correct?  I only ask because it is the one zone without any trash, and you mentioned being outparsed on trash by 1000 on each.  But if it is PR, I wouldn't have thought that would be a good zone to compare an assassin and ranger on.  Mainly because the first four named in the zone have a melee damage shield that knocks the target back.  If you can post some numbers of what you do on live it should give us a better idea of what your data means.  I'm a little suspicious because you said you're DPS went down, and yet in your Test Server PR run you're about the same as the assassin, which logically speaking would mean that on live you do as much if not more than the assassin in PR.  And if it is the case that on live you are doing more than your assassin in DPS, then well, something is just not right about that.  Even with the damage shield on the first four named, on live an equally skilled, equally equiped assassin will do more than a ranger.  That is based on personal observation as well as testamony from other players I've talked to in other guilds.  (And no, I'm not a ranger orassassin so there is no bias in that statement)</p><p>Temple of Kor-Sha is a good parsing zone, as well as the trash mobs in Chamber of Destiny.  Parsing those two zones will give a better picture of where you two sit respectively DPS wise.</p>

[TaleraRis]

You all know I'm a soloer so I don't even run a parser. But I am concerned about the arrow hit rate. I saw mention it went from 30% to 10%? If this is true, I hope in Aeralik's figurings in trying to balance the high end, he doesn't forget the lower end who don't need the damage, but definitely don't need their arrows to start missing a lot more than they do. Hitting the mob is how I survive as a soloer, which is why I use field point. Can anyone confirm if that change remained?

[Dejah]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>On the subject of procs, I have removed the maximum delay for normalization. However I also did remove the damage procs triggering from ranged as well. The ring proc is fine its beneficial and should have worked all along anyways.</blockquote><p>I still can't contemplate why putting a cap for maximum delay was even considered.  The whole point of normalization is to make the number of procs per minute equal for both fast weapons and slow weapons.  The only thing putting the cap in would have done would have been to make it not equal, and have put a bias towards weapons with delays less than the cap.  As it stands already, short delay weapons have an advantage when it comes to 100% proc chance effects like CoB.  </p><p>I'm not sure what you are referring to when you said you removed the damage procs from triggerin from ranged.  I can only assume you are talking about CoB and the wizard melee proc buff.  If that is the case, why?  Why isn't a Ranger allowed to benefit from CoB? Especially considering a Ranger benefits from CoB far less than a faster attacking melee class.  And why isn't a Ranger allowed to benefit from the wizard proc buff?  It is not like they are going to proc it more often than an Assassin or Rogue.</p><p>In T7, as a Wizard I used to very much enjoy going toe to toe with the Assassins and Rangers in DPS on raids.  Since RoK, Assassins are still competitive but Rangers have fallen way, waaay behind.  Granted, the ranger in my guild quit just prior to the Mythicals coming out, but considering neither raidwide CoB nor raidwide PoM would benefit the Ranger, I'm pretty confident when I say that the Assassin and I could probably double his zonewides if he were still around (based on the zonewide DPS numbers I saw of his prior to him quiting pre-mythicals).  It is not a question of skill either, since in T7 we were all pretty close together in terms of DPS potential.</p><p>I honestly think that most rangers here had it right when they said, "The problem is that autoattack damage was never scaled up to T8."  All this fix does is leave their damage at T7, and you nerfed their old T7 damage to T6.  Please, reconsider how much you're scaling back the damage.  I miss the competition.</p>

[MacDaddy62]

It's honestly pretty appalling to me the number of arbitrary restrictions placed on the ranger class these days.  In your post, Aeralik, you say you're removing the maximum delay for proc normalization, but also revoking having things like CoB proc off bow, as if this sort of tradeoff is for some reason necessary for only the ranger class.  Why is it that rangers must choose, but no other scout has to?  Every other scout has access to his full proc rate (normalized to base weapon delay/cast time) AND the full array of scout procs.  What is so special about rangers that makes having full access to procs somehow overpowered?  It doesn't make sense.  Why do we need new hidden mechanics to scale back ranger auto attack damage?  We didn't have such mechanics in EoF, when high-end T7 bows were doing their full damage with the high-end arrows and rangers with these bows and arrows were widely regarded as fine (not overpowered, talking about late EoF).  Why must rangers be penalized with respect to double attack bonuses compared to other classes?  The claim that auto bow is massively more powerful than auto melee as justification for this is simply bogus and anyone who actually understands game mechanics knows it.At this point, I really just have to accept the fact that there is significant bias against the ranger class, either in Aeralik's mind or in the data collection and analysis methods he uses, and so there will be no real results any time soon for rangers.  Quitting isn't really an option for me and I can't quite bring myself to betray, but I've recruited an assassin (actually might've done this earlier if I had a promising app) and I'll often be playing another class for my guild going into the future.-Azleya, Ranger and Officer of StrikeLucan D'Lere

[Krakelkr]

Apparently a blanket damage modifier was put on bows on test to bring their damage down while arrow level was upped!?I understand that adjusting the damage on all the bows in game is a lot of work but it's the only way to do it. The problem with the current fix is that melee weapons and bows now follow different damage rules. The damage rating on melee weapon and ranged weapons mean different things! A bow with a higher damage rating than one's melee weapons will in many cases, counterintuitively, do less damage. How would you explain that to a new ranger? A change like this fundamentally messes up the game (!) and I think you should reconsider: Adjust the damage on all bows so that the stated damage actually is comparable between weapon types.Additionally, AFAIKT this change amounts to a heavy nerf to autoattack damage below t8. This is not at all necessary, on the contrary. With this change a t3 ranger recieves a nerf so that t8 rangers are not overpowered. A big mistake I think.

[Ithielle]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>The whole idea from the start was to give rangers a proper mechanic for arrows and ranged weapons.  From a dps perspective rangers were doing well beforehand so to up the current damage for the level 80 items wasn't going to work.  Using those as a baseline, I kept their damage the same but now you have the arrow scaling problem fixed.  This in turn had some effect on lower level items but a level 74 bow like the RSB shouldnt be outdamaging the fabled epic anyways. I know its not exactly what you wanted from the fix but the gain you would have had would have put you far beyond any class.</blockquote>Any response on cheating and using your position for personal gain?

[MacDaddy62]

Lol you won't get him to comment on that, and the exposure of that PM certainly does erode his credibility as a dev.  I mean people had suspicions of bias on Aeralik's part even before that PM came to light, but how are we supposed to believe his statements that rangers are fine when player experience indicates to the contrary AND it's been shown that Aeralik really has unethically used his position for personal gain?  I mean when Aeralik first got the combat dev job, I had a lot of hope for him and really felt I gave him a clean slate (in my head), free of Lockeye's past screw-ups, but all things considered (DE racial trait fiasco, too), it's honestly getting pretty hard to keep faith in him as a non-biased party.

[Ithielle]

<cite>Azleya@Lucan DLere wrote:</cite><blockquote>Lol you won't get him to comment on that, and the exposure of that PM certainly does erode his credibility as a dev.  I mean people had suspicions of bias on Aeralik's part even before that PM came to light, but how are we supposed to believe his statements that rangers are fine when player experience indicates to the contrary AND it's been shown that Aeralik really has unethically used his position for personal gain?  I mean when Aeralik first got the combat dev job, I had a lot of hope for him and really felt I gave him a clean slate (in my head), free of Lockeye's past screw-ups, but all things considered (DE racial trait fiasco, too), it's honestly getting pretty hard to keep faith in him as a non-biased party.</blockquote>Just think, you could have rolled a DE Assassin too.

[kartikeya]

<p>Since everyone's asking questions now, I have a few questions worth pondering.</p><p>Why do I pay significantly more than any other class to do my job?</p><p>Why are classes with much more utility also given much more DPS, and why is this considered balanced?</p><p>Why do you think it's reasonable that ranger DPS essentially has not changed from T7? RSB is overpowered now? That's such nonsense. It wasn't overpowered when everyone was doing T7 damage, why is it over powered when everyone else is doing T8 damage?</p><p>Why are rangers restricted from receiving benefit from so many buffs, specifically, procs?</p><p>Why do I see items that give bonuses to both ranged and melee double attack, but the ranged double attack bonus is only half?</p><p>Why do so many people say that rangers are nowhere near assassin DPS (non-rangers included), and yet you insist that this damage is 'fine'? Does this mean that you think rangers are on par with assassins? If this is the case, who is wrong here? If we are, what are we doing collectively that has caused us to all come to the same wrong conclusion, and what are you doing correctly that has brought you to the right conclusion?</p><p>Why do you think that letting ranger damage scale up logically to T8 would overpower us? Wouldn't this have been the result if the arrow mechanics issues didn't exist,  as we sure heard you say they didn't for quite some time? Isn't the point of a new tier that a class gets better at what it does?</p><p>Why have the hitrates on our arrows been nerfed?</p><p>Why was the response to huge dissatisfaction in a segment of your playerbase and a large number of account cancellations to make the cause of their dissatisfaction even greater and to try and pass it off as something that was actually beneficial?</p><p>Those are a few questions I'm very interested in having answered. And also, while flames are certainly not <i>constructive </i>feedback, and shouldn't be encouraged, they are nevertheless still feedback of a sort. The fact that you had trouble picking out the calmer posts in the sea of anger and frothing outcry is probably a sign that people who were already very upset are now <i>angrier. </i></p><p>One last question. Why have I hit the cancellation button on my account yet again so I won't be paying for another month of EQ2? *sigh* That question I CAN answer. See above.</p>

[kartikeya]

<cite>Ithielle@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just think, you could have rolled a DE Assassin too.</blockquote>I rolled a DE ranger. Guess which kind of combat doesn't get a buff from that racial?  <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> 

[Boramyr]

<p>Ok three things.  </p><p>1. that PR parse was from Live not test.  I haven't been paying much attention to the zonewides before tonight but its always seemed I do better on named.  going forward I will pay much more attention to it. </p><p>2.  I'm glad the proc thing is out and what really amazes me is that a GLOBAL change went it because one class was getting a buff that they didn't have before.  The proc change affected 2hd sword weilding crusaders and anyone wielding Corrotidcutter.   I'm not sure how nerfing those guys balanced against rangers getting CoB and The wizard proc, but that won't make it off test so no real harm no foul.   </p><p>3.  Guys STOP Attacking Aerelik in this thread.  It will get us nowhere on trying to affect Positive change.  We've won half the battle so far and we'll probably have to compromise on the second half but again we get bows turned up by about 5% and I think we can call this a win.  I'm not fan of this guys attitude either, but this is neither the time nor the place for that.  </p>

[RoXx]

<p>Listen to me Aeroflick.</p><p>We all want things to be fixed in a way that will let rangers reclaim our T1 state. How to do this?<b>All</b> of these changes need to be applied:</p><p>-Make crafted arrows acting level 80 (with the hidden variable set to +5 or something) Meaning:<span style="font-size: xx-small;">--T7 crafted arrows will give all lvl 61-70 bows their full damage--T8 crafted arrows will give all lvl 71-80 bows their full damage</span>-Set the top damage slightly down on the bows that do far too much damage (decreasing delay so DR will be same)-Make all procs that work on melee also work on ranged. Including the buffs from fury, warlock, wizard, dirge, wardens fabled armor etc etc.-Give items with +melee crit also +ranged crit. Give items with +dbl attack also +rng dbl attack etc etc.-Boost our CA damage-Let rangers reclaim our T1 capability</p><p>-Dont nerf bows so ranger is outparsed by rouges, summoners, chanters etc-Dont nerf overall bow damage-Dont nerf procs-Dont make all of us betray to assassin. YES there will always be rangers around. NO, not in real raiding guilds. Not like this.</p><p>If you do the things I listed here, things will be balanced. If you choose to keep rangers in the current nerfed state, there will be none left in top guilds.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Dirty Jack Rackham]

<p>The way SOE seems to figure tiers, Rigid Scale is an early t8 bow, not t7 (same with the arrow summoning bows).</p><p>Tiers run from 0 through 9, not 1 through 0.</p><p>t1 = 1 - 9t2 = 10 - 19t3 = 20 - 29t4 = 30 - 39</p><p>...</p><p>t7 = 60 - 69t8 = 70 - 79</p><p>t9 starts at 80</p><p>So which is it. t7 or t8? Back in EoF, Rigid Scale always seemed to be considered a t8 bow. This would make Eagle's Talon an early t9 bow.</p>

[Solvantis]

<p>All I would like is for aeralik to betray to ranger for a month, Raid on him and then tell us that were not broken... If you can do that and still keep your T1 DPS I will never complain again...</p><p>I used to be neck and neck with our assasins in guild at the later part of EoF. I see my self slowly dropping below that mark as each raid goes on and we get better gear... My numbers stay the same generally and the assasins gets higher and higher..</p><p>So no I will not betray if this goes live, ill just prolly cancel my 5 accounts... </p><p>Aeralik BETRAY and POST US THESE UBER DPS numbers that you will pull as a ranger... DO it I challenge you.........</p>

[xandez]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>The whole idea from the start was to give rangers a proper mechanic for arrows and ranged weapons.  <b>From a dps perspective rangers were doing well beforehand so to up the current damage for the level 80 items wasn't going to work. </b> Using those as a baseline, I kept their damage the same but now you have the arrow scaling problem fixed.  This in turn had some effect on lower level items but a level 74 bow like the RSB shouldnt be outdamaging the fabled epic anyways. I know its not exactly what you wanted from the fix but the gain you would have had would have put you far beyond any class.</blockquote>ARGHHHwAHT!???we were doing FINE? Are you on crack?Every single wizard and their mother with treasured gear can outDPS us, to add injury to insult they also have UTILITY which rangers have 0Arghh....Are you aware that we DO PAY for our DPS (which cant match the wizard/whatever/younameit DPS)Over and out, have fun. Im done with the ranger class.++Xan

[voxranger]

<cite>Miri@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>So will T8 bows be doing any more damage now? or they gonna be stuck doing old T7 damage?If no change please say so i can betray now so i can do what a T1 dps class is SUPPOSEED to do, Thanks</blockquote><p>Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that all Aeralik has done is fix a situation in which our damage was further reduced as opposed to remaining about where it was prior to the arrow fix. In other words, is it not true that our damage has not progressed in T8, and in fact, Aeralik is remaining consistent with his previous comments that our damage prior to the arrow fix was fine?</p><p>It seems to me, that his comments make it pretty clear that the purpose of the arrow fix was not to progress our damage, but to make the arrow/bow mechanics operate logically.</p><p>Anyone see something i dont that states or implies otherwise, if so, please help me to see it as well <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Effidian]

<cite>voxranger wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>It seems to me, that his comments make it pretty clear that the purpose of the arrow fix was not to progress our damage, but to make the arrow/bow mechanics operate logically.</p></blockquote><p>The problem is the hidden damage reduction isn't logical.  </p><p>I cannot stress this enough <b>PLEASE do not use a hidden mechanic to reduce bow damage</b>.  If you must reduce bow damage, go change all the bow's stats, yeah that is harder for you guys, but that would be the correct way to do it.  It is hard enough to explain how arrows reduce bow damage, and that one has an easy way to see it (just don't equip ammo).  A hidden component will be just impossible to explain.</p>

[T1663R]

<cite>RoXxer wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Listen to me Aeroflick.</p><p>We all want things to be fixed in a way that will let rangers reclaim our T1 state. How to do this?<b>All</b> of these changes need to be applied:</p><p>-Make crafted arrows acting level 80 (with the hidden variable set to +5 or something) Meaning:<span style="font-size: xx-small;">--T7 crafted arrows will give all lvl 61-70 bows their full damage--T8 crafted arrows will give all lvl 71-80 bows their full damage</span>-Set the top damage slightly down on the bows that do far too much damage (decreasing delay so DR will be same)-Make all procs that work on melee also work on ranged. Including the buffs from fury, warlock, wizard, dirge, wardens fabled armor etc etc.-Give items with +melee crit also +ranged crit. Give items with +dbl attack also +rng dbl attack etc etc.-Boost our CA damage-Let rangers reclaim our T1 capability</p><p>-Dont nerf bows so ranger is outparsed by rouges, summoners, chanters etc-Dont nerf overall bow damage-Dont nerf procs-Dont make all of us betray to assassin. YES there will always be rangers around. NO, not in real raiding guilds. Not like this.</p><p>If you do the things I listed here, things will be balanced. If you choose to keep rangers in the current nerfed state, there will be none left in top guilds.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>100% agree,well well,you guys at soe had a hell of time to get ur dps fixed and its starting to [Removed for Content] me off...you told us this gu would help and support our dps and it seems to get like a nerf, i as a ranger on pvp server cant even use the "benefits" of the gu since focus aim is COMPLETELY [Removed for Content] DEACTIVATET ON PVP SERVERS.so if you guys dont get it done to support us and this gu goes live and i get nerfed AGAIN, then i will quit, im done with ur stupid exuses, we have to pay the most for our dps and we have some of the lowest of all scouts.so thats the last chance i give you, change this, support us like you promised, activate focus aim for pvp too, YOU CAN WEAKEN THE PVP BENENEFITS WE GET FROM IT LIKE HELL BUT DONT SIMPLY TURN IT OF.Domo lvl 80 mystic VenekorHidan lvl 80 Ranger Venekor

[heavymetalbard]

<cite>Domo@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>RoXxer wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Listen to me Aeroflick.</p><p>We all want things to be fixed in a way that will let rangers reclaim our T1 state. How to do this?<b>All</b> of these changes need to be applied:</p><p>-Make crafted arrows acting level 80 (with the hidden variable set to +5 or something) Meaning:<span style="font-size: xx-small;">--T7 crafted arrows will give all lvl 61-70 bows their full damage--T8 crafted arrows will give all lvl 71-80 bows their full damage</span>-Set the top damage slightly down on the bows that do far too much damage (decreasing delay so DR will be same)-Make all procs that work on melee also work on ranged. Including the buffs from fury, warlock, wizard, dirge, wardens fabled armor etc etc.-Give items with +melee crit also +ranged crit. Give items with +dbl attack also +rng dbl attack etc etc.-Boost our CA damage-Let rangers reclaim our T1 capability</p><p>-Dont nerf bows so ranger is outparsed by rouges, summoners, chanters etc-Dont nerf overall bow damage-Dont nerf procs-Dont make all of us betray to assassin. YES there will always be rangers around. NO, not in real raiding guilds. Not like this.</p><p>If you do the things I listed here, things will be balanced. If you choose to keep rangers in the current nerfed state, there will be none left in top guilds.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>100% agree,well well,you guys at soe had a hell of time to get ur dps fixed and its starting to [Removed for Content] me off...you told us this gu would help and support our dps and it seems to get like a nerf, i as a ranger on pvp server cant even use the "benefits" of the gu since focus aim is COMPLETELY [I cannot control my vocabulary] DEACTIVATET ON PVP SERVERS.so if you guys dont get it done to support us and this gu goes live and i get nerfed AGAIN, then i will quit, im done with ur stupid exuses, we have to pay the most for our dps and we have some of the lowest of all scouts.so thats the last chance i give you, change this, support us like you promised, activate focus aim for pvp too, YOU CAN WEAKEN THE PVP BENENEFITS WE GET FROM IT LIKE HELL BUT DONT SIMPLY TURN IT OF.Domo lvl 80 mystic VenekorHidan lvl 80 Ranger Venekor</blockquote>i totaly agree,same goes for me, i will quit eq2 too if you at soe dont fix this and support us like you told us so many times.

[voxranger]

<cite>heavymetalbard wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Domo@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>RoXxer wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Listen to me Aeroflick.</p><p>We all want things to be fixed in a way that will let rangers reclaim our T1 state. How to do this?<b>All</b> of these changes need to be applied:</p><p>-Make crafted arrows acting level 80 (with the hidden variable set to +5 or something) Meaning:<span style="font-size: xx-small;">--T7 crafted arrows will give all lvl 61-70 bows their full damage--T8 crafted arrows will give all lvl 71-80 bows their full damage</span>-Set the top damage slightly down on the bows that do far too much damage (decreasing delay so DR will be same)-Make all procs that work on melee also work on ranged. Including the buffs from fury, warlock, wizard, dirge, wardens fabled armor etc etc.-Give items with +melee crit also +ranged crit. Give items with +dbl attack also +rng dbl attack etc etc.-Boost our CA damage-Let rangers reclaim our T1 capability</p><p>-Dont nerf bows so ranger is outparsed by rouges, summoners, chanters etc-Dont nerf overall bow damage-Dont nerf procs-Dont make all of us betray to assassin. YES there will always be rangers around. NO, not in real raiding guilds. Not like this.</p><p>If you do the things I listed here, things will be balanced. If you choose to keep rangers in the current nerfed state, there will be none left in top guilds.. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>100% agree,well well,you guys at soe had a hell of time to get ur dps fixed and its starting to [Removed for Content] me off...you told us this gu would help and support our dps and it seems to get like a nerf, i as a ranger on pvp server cant even use the "benefits" of the gu since focus aim is COMPLETELY [I cannot control my vocabulary] DEACTIVATET ON PVP SERVERS.so if you guys dont get it done to support us and this gu goes live and i get nerfed AGAIN, then i will quit, im done with ur stupid exuses, we have to pay the most for our dps and we have some of the lowest of all scouts.so thats the last chance i give you, change this, support us like you promised, activate focus aim for pvp too, YOU CAN WEAKEN THE PVP BENENEFITS WE GET FROM IT LIKE HELL BUT DONT SIMPLY TURN IT OF.Domo lvl 80 mystic VenekorHidan lvl 80 Ranger Venekor</blockquote>i totaly agree,same goes for me, i will quit eq2 too if you at soe dont fix this and support us like you told us so many times.</blockquote>Just to be clear. Aeralik never once promised he was going to fix our dps issues. In fact, he has stated all along that our dps was fine with the broken arrow mechanics. What he said is he would fix the arrow issues, which has meant correcting the broken mechanics, but putting other measures in place to hold our dps to where it was.

[T1663R]

<cite>voxranger wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just to be clear. Aeralik never once promised he was going to fix our dps issues. In fact, he has stated all along that our dps was fine with the broken arrow mechanics. What he said is he would fix the arrow issues, which has meant correcting the broken mechanics, but putting other measures in place to hold our dps to where it was.</blockquote> in the alakhazam dev chat some time ago the devs said this gu would slithly boost our dps !!!! but anyway, atm this gu seems to nerf our dps, and if this goes live and i see a loose of dps, then i will quit. thats all.

[voxranger]

<cite>Domo@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>voxranger wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just to be clear. Aeralik never once promised he was going to fix our dps issues. In fact, he has stated all along that our dps was fine with the broken arrow mechanics. What he said is he would fix the arrow issues, which has meant correcting the broken mechanics, but putting other measures in place to hold our dps to where it was.</blockquote>in the alakhazam dev chat some time ago the devs said this gu would slithly boost our dps !!!!but anyway, atm this gu seems to nerf our dps, and if this goes live and i see a loose of dps, then i will quit.thats all.</blockquote>I can understand how you would get that impression, but if you re-read the developer chat, what Aeralik said was he was looking into the arrow issues, and was going to give our combat arts a touch more dps (which he did vis a vis timer reductions), and was looking to give us some group utility (focus aim). He said nothing about increasing our over-all dps, which is entirely consistent with every statement he has made over the past several months.

[Dreadpatch]

Don't be afraid to let the Rangers do more dps, it will put them more in line with assassins (which they should be). Don't get me wrong, I love my swashy, but I shouldn't be able to out parse a ranger. I can most if not all of the time Zonewide. Give em some love. I highly doubt they would be overpowered if you did the fix properly, not nerfing them.

[44Dragon]

<cite>Domo@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>voxranger wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just to be clear. Aeralik never once promised he was going to fix our dps issues. In fact, he has stated all along that our dps was fine with the broken arrow mechanics. What he said is he would fix the arrow issues, which has meant correcting the broken mechanics, but putting other measures in place to hold our dps to where it was.</blockquote>in the alakhazam dev chat some time ago the devs said this gu would slithly boost our dps !!!!but anyway, atm this gu seems to nerf our dps, and if this goes live and i see a loose of dps, then i will quit.thats all.</blockquote><p>There was a slight boost to our CA damage (on the melee arts) which is most likely what he meant when he made that little comment.  Wow, thanks!  </p><p>This is a classic hit them hard and then back off a little so that we can all say we compromised.  This is what everyone was worried about happening when they started the <i>fix</i> because the ranger community (with a <i>few</i> exceptions) lacks any confidence in our dev.  This is like putting duct tape on a rusting car...eventually you will just be driving around a huge piece of duct tape.</p>

[44Dragon]

<cite>voxranger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Domo@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>voxranger wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just to be clear. Aeralik never once promised he was going to fix our dps issues. In fact, he has stated all along that our dps was fine with the broken arrow mechanics. What he said is he would fix the arrow issues, which has meant correcting the broken mechanics, but putting other measures in place to hold our dps to where it was.</blockquote>in the alakhazam dev chat some time ago the devs said this gu would slithly boost our dps !!!!but anyway, atm this gu seems to nerf our dps, and if this goes live and i see a loose of dps, then i will quit.thats all.</blockquote>I can understand how you would get that impression, but if you re-read the developer chat, what Aeralik said was he was looking into the arrow issues, and was going to give our combat arts a touch more dps (which he did vis a vis timer reductions), and was looking to give us some group utility (focus aim). He said nothing about increasing our over-all dps, which is entirely consistent with every statement he has made over the past several months.</blockquote>just to be clear.  the fact that he said something and then did something doesn't mean it was the right thing to say or do.  The ranger community has been talking about these changes for months, and there are several ideas floating on the boards that seem like a much better fix than these.  please stop trying to drive this point home with each of your posts.  we get that you think everything is perfect since he did what he said he was going to do.  really...we can read.  are you getting the fact that we aren't happy with that?

[Anekuh]

<cite>Dreadpatch wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't be afraid to let the Rangers do more dps, it will put them more in line with assassins (which they should be). Don't get me wrong, I love my swashy, but I shouldn't be able to out parse a ranger. I can most if not all of the time Zonewide. Give em some love. I highly doubt they would be overpowered if you did the fix properly, not nerfing them.</blockquote><p>My guess is Aerlalik thinks otherwise. He thinks we are just dandy.</p><p>And this thread has over 225 posts already. I wonder why????</p>

[Rensor]

<cite>kartikeya wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Since everyone's asking questions now, I have a few questions worth pondering.</p><p>Why do I pay significantly more than any other class to do my job?</p><p>Why are classes with much more utility also given much more DPS, and why is this considered balanced?</p><p>Why do you think it's reasonable that ranger DPS essentially has not changed from T7? RSB is overpowered now? That's such nonsense. It wasn't overpowered when everyone was doing T7 damage, why is it over powered when everyone else is doing T8 damage?</p><p>Why are rangers restricted from receiving benefit from so many buffs, specifically, procs?</p><p>Why do I see items that give bonuses to both ranged and melee double attack, but the ranged double attack bonus is only half?</p><p>Why do so many people say that rangers are nowhere near assassin DPS (non-rangers included), and yet you insist that this damage is 'fine'? Does this mean that you think rangers are on par with assassins? If this is the case, who is wrong here? If we are, what are we doing collectively that has caused us to all come to the same wrong conclusion, and what are you doing correctly that has brought you to the right conclusion?</p><p>Why do you think that letting ranger damage scale up logically to T8 would overpower us? Wouldn't this have been the result if the arrow mechanics issues didn't exist,  as we sure heard you say they didn't for quite some time? Isn't the point of a new tier that a class gets better at what it does?</p><p>Why have the hitrates on our arrows been nerfed?</p><p>Why was the response to huge dissatisfaction in a segment of your playerbase and a large number of account cancellations to make the cause of their dissatisfaction even greater and to try and pass it off as something that was actually beneficial?</p><p>Those are a few questions I'm very interested in having answered. And also, while flames are certainly not <i>constructive </i>feedback, and shouldn't be encouraged, they are nevertheless still feedback of a sort. The fact that you had trouble picking out the calmer posts in the sea of anger and frothing outcry is probably a sign that people who were already very upset are now <i>angrier. </i></p><p>One last question. Why have I hit the cancellation button on my account yet again so I won't be paying for another month of EQ2? *sigh* That question I CAN answer. See above.</p></blockquote>This sums it up perfectly for me...I'd like to hear a dev's answers for all of these questions.  It simply floors me that these problems are not recognized as such.

[Ranja]

<cite>Dreadpatch wrote:</cite><blockquote>Don't be afraid to let the Rangers do more dps, it will put them more in line with assassins (which they should be). Don't get me wrong, I love my swashy, but I shouldn't be able to out parse a ranger. I can most if not all of the time Zonewide. Give em some love. I highly doubt they would be overpowered if you did the fix properly, not nerfing them.</blockquote>Aerlick please take note of this statement. Swashies, who have a ton more utility than rangers, are beating us. This is not called balance.

[T1663R]

<cite>voxranger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Domo@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>voxranger wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just to be clear. Aeralik never once promised he was going to fix our dps issues. In fact, he has stated all along that our dps was fine with the broken arrow mechanics. What he said is he would fix the arrow issues, which has meant correcting the broken mechanics, but putting other measures in place to hold our dps to where it was.</blockquote>in the alakhazam dev chat some time ago the devs said this gu would slithly boost our dps !!!!but anyway, atm this gu seems to nerf our dps, and if this goes live and i see a loose of dps, then i will quit.thats all.</blockquote>I can understand how you would get that impression, but if you re-read the developer chat, what Aeralik said was he was looking into the arrow issues, and was going to give our combat arts a touch more dps (which he did vis a vis timer reductions), and was looking to give us some group utility (focus aim). He said nothing about increasing our over-all dps, which is entirely consistent with every statement he has made over the past several months.</blockquote>he did not say that :-he would dramaticly decrease our hit chances-that  the group buff would not be useable by pvp players -that some hidden mechanics would nerf our dps in the end

[Kenban]

<cite>voxranger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I can understand how you would get that impression, but if you re-read the developer chat, what Aeralik said was he was looking into the arrow issues, and was going to give our combat arts a touch more dps (which he did vis a vis timer reductions), and was looking to give us some group utility (focus aim). He said nothing about increasing our over-all dps, which is entirely consistent with every statement he has made over the past several months.</blockquote>Just wondering which timers were reduced.  Last time I checked on testpvp the timers are the same as they are on live.  Its possible I missed something but they appeared to be unchanged.

[Tyberi]

<cite>kartikeya wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Since everyone's asking questions now, I have a few questions worth pondering.</p><p>Why do I pay significantly more than any other class to do my job?</p><p>Why are classes with much more utility also given much more DPS, and why is this considered balanced?</p><p>Why do you think it's reasonable that ranger DPS essentially has not changed from T7? RSB is overpowered now? That's such nonsense. It wasn't overpowered when everyone was doing T7 damage, why is it over powered when everyone else is doing T8 damage?</p><p>Why are rangers restricted from receiving benefit from so many buffs, specifically, procs?</p><p>Why do I see items that give bonuses to both ranged and melee double attack, but the ranged double attack bonus is only half?</p><p>Why do so many people say that rangers are nowhere near assassin DPS (non-rangers included), and yet you insist that this damage is 'fine'? Does this mean that you think rangers are on par with assassins? If this is the case, who is wrong here? If we are, what are we doing collectively that has caused us to all come to the same wrong conclusion, and what are you doing correctly that has brought you to the right conclusion?</p><p>Why do you think that letting ranger damage scale up logically to T8 would overpower us? Wouldn't this have been the result if the arrow mechanics issues didn't exist,  as we sure heard you say they didn't for quite some time? Isn't the point of a new tier that a class gets better at what it does?</p><p>Why have the hitrates on our arrows been nerfed?</p><p>Why was the response to huge dissatisfaction in a segment of your playerbase and a large number of account cancellations to make the cause of their dissatisfaction even greater and to try and pass it off as something that was actually beneficial?</p><p>Those are a few questions I'm very interested in having answered. And also, while flames are certainly not <i>constructive </i>feedback, and shouldn't be encouraged, they are nevertheless still feedback of a sort. The fact that you had trouble picking out the calmer posts in the sea of anger and frothing outcry is probably a sign that people who were already very upset are now <i>angrier. </i></p><p>One last question. Why have I hit the cancellation button on my account yet again so I won't be paying for another month of EQ2? *sigh* That question I CAN answer. See above.</p></blockquote>QFE

[voxranger]

<cite>Domo@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>voxranger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Domo@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>voxranger wrote:</cite><blockquote>Just to be clear. Aeralik never once promised he was going to fix our dps issues. In fact, he has stated all along that our dps was fine with the broken arrow mechanics. What he said is he would fix the arrow issues, which has meant correcting the broken mechanics, but putting other measures in place to hold our dps to where it was.</blockquote>in the alakhazam dev chat some time ago the devs said this gu would slithly boost our dps !!!!but anyway, atm this gu seems to nerf our dps, and if this goes live and i see a loose of dps, then i will quit.thats all.</blockquote>I can understand how you would get that impression, but if you re-read the developer chat, what Aeralik said was he was looking into the arrow issues, and was going to give our combat arts a touch more dps (which he did vis a vis timer reductions), and was looking to give us some group utility (focus aim). He said nothing about increasing our over-all dps, which is entirely consistent with every statement he has made over the past several months.</blockquote>he did not say that :-he would dramaticly decrease our hit chances-that  the group buff would not be useable by pvp players -that some hidden mechanics would nerf our dps in the end</blockquote><p>Yep - I agree. He spun the chat so as to hi-light the added benifets without making any references to the fact that he was making those changes, in conjunction with a series of nerfs so as to keep our dps in line with where it was prior to the arrow fix after the arrow fix was done. </p><p>Well, at this point I have resigned myself to to acceptance. The ranger will not have the raid impact or demand that it once had, and it appears as though the developers are crafting the class to be better suited to normal questing and group play, particuarily outdoor play - just look at the coverage ca for our level 80 - is there any question where this skill will be easiest or best to use? If you look at the big picture, and take everything into account, it is pretty clear where SOE is taking the ranger.</p><p>I suppose Illusionists and Summoners can empathize becuase they are excellent raid classes, while they have been left out of the loop on pvp viability. Rangers will remain strong in pvp and normal grouping play, but are now out of the loop on raid viability.</p><p>Oh well, it is what it is. Time to find a new main.</p>

[zDocW]

I have seven live accounts - now cancelled all 7.  (actually 8 but 1 was already cancelled)This is just the final straw. The corruption that has been exposed in that other "flaming" site was the start and now this is just the last straw for me.I was building up a ranger and reached level 71 with the expectation that finally Rangers were going to get the boost they have needed for so long. Ha Ha the joke is on me. Until the questions and concerns I have are addressed, I will more than likely never be back. These questions are summarised beautifully in the post I have copied below. These really sum up very well the concerns and questions many rangers are asking and which need to be answered.<cite>kartikeya wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Since everyone's asking questions now, I have a few questions worth pondering.</p><p>Why do I pay significantly more than any other class to do my job?</p><p>Why are classes with much more utility also given much more DPS, and why is this considered balanced?</p><p>Why do you think it's reasonable that ranger DPS essentially has not changed from T7? RSB is overpowered now? That's such nonsense. It wasn't overpowered when everyone was doing T7 damage, why is it over powered when everyone else is doing T8 damage?</p><p>Why are rangers restricted from receiving benefit from so many buffs, specifically, procs?</p><p>Why do I see items that give bonuses to both ranged and melee double attack, but the ranged double attack bonus is only half?</p><p>Why do so many people say that rangers are nowhere near assassin DPS (non-rangers included), and yet you insist that this damage is 'fine'? Does this mean that you think rangers are on par with assassins? If this is the case, who is wrong here? If we are, what are we doing collectively that has caused us to all come to the same wrong conclusion, and what are you doing correctly that has brought you to the right conclusion?</p><p>Why do you think that letting ranger damage scale up logically to T8 would overpower us? Wouldn't this have been the result if the arrow mechanics issues didn't exist,  as we sure heard you say they didn't for quite some time? Isn't the point of a new tier that a class gets better at what it does?</p><p>Why have the hitrates on our arrows been nerfed?</p><p>Why was the response to huge dissatisfaction in a segment of your playerbase and a large number of account cancellations to make the cause of their dissatisfaction even greater and to try and pass it off as something that was actually beneficial?</p><p>Those are a few questions I'm very interested in having answered. And also, while flames are certainly not <i>constructive </i>feedback, and shouldn't be encouraged, they are nevertheless still feedback of a sort. The fact that you had trouble picking out the calmer posts in the sea of anger and frothing outcry is probably a sign that people who were already very upset are now <i>angrier. </i></p><p>One last question. Why have I hit the cancellation button on my account yet again so I won't be paying for another month of EQ2? *sigh* That question I CAN answer. See above.</p></blockquote>

[Tyberi]

<cite>voxranger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>I suppose Illusionists and Summoners can empathize becuase they are excellent raid classes, while they have been left out of the loop on pvp viability. Rangers will remain strong in pvp and normal grouping play, but are now out of the loop on raid viability.</p></blockquote>Thank you for highlighting your ignorance of the game so perfectly in this passage.

[Tyberi]

<cite>Aeralik wrote:</cite><blockquote>The main goal of the change was to fix the ranged and arrow mechanics so that everything scales in a logical way. The main problem we noticed though in reviewing the mechanics was that just bumping the arrow level to 80 swung the pendulum in the other direction. So instead, we have taken a route where going forward things progress more naturally as one would expect. In the short term that means weapons like rigid scale bow will take a hit to the damage. From an item standpoint Rigid Scale bow was a bit of an anomaly. It has some really high settings which helped make it so powerful and univerally the best bow on live today even in vp. As a matter fact I have one on live so I am well aware of the changes its undergoing. RSB is a level 70 and T7 bow though. One would expect that the newer raid bows would be the better choice going forward which they now are. Since RSB did take a hit though we are looking to possibly improve a raid bow or two so that there is some sort of in between option for players which would keep their auto attack about the same as it is now.<span style="color: #cc6600;"><b>Translation:</b> That RSB you got after farming EH for so long was WAYYYY to powerful in the first place. So I'm dunna dumb it down a bit. No big deal right? I mean if I didnt, all you rangers out there who worked to get it wouldn't have anything to look forward too in ROK. Dont worry though! Because I'm such a nice guy, I'm gunna up the damage on some ROK raid bows. So....... if ya work really hard, you can do the very same damage you were doing before I [screwed] with everything. I mean common the only other alternative would be to make the raid bows in this expansion more powerful than the un-nerfed RSB...... and thats just crazy talk. That would be like.... giving you something better than you had before!<b>End translation.</b></span> <span style="color: #cc6600;">~from  Jonnieonthespot on eq2flames, best and most accurate representation I have seen for this quote. </span> On the subject of procs, I have removed the maximum delay for normalization. However I also did remove the damage procs triggering from ranged as well. The ring proc is fine its beneficial and should have worked all along anyways.</blockquote>So you decrease auto attack damage and then as a [Removed for Content] poor attempt at fixing that you give the ability to proc most melee procs on ranged attacks and then take that even away when you realized how bad it was to cap proc rate to 5.33, nearly half the delay of the best bows....So net effect: Less auto attack damage and very limited procs, still.

[voxranger]

<cite>Tyberion@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>voxranger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>I suppose Illusionists and Summoners can empathize becuase they are excellent raid classes, while they have been left out of the loop on pvp viability. Rangers will remain strong in pvp and normal grouping play, but are now out of the loop on raid viability.</p></blockquote>Thank you for highlighting your ignorance of the game so perfectly in this passage.</blockquote><p>Please clarify - thanks. I have no problem admitting if I am wrong, or "igorant" about a topic or even the game. Perhaps you have something useful to add that may help me better understand, and are to do so in away that serves a purpose other to simply be arrogant or insulting.</p><p>If I'm being ignorant, then educate me. I admit I have never played a summoner or a enchanter.  I am simply relying on what has been reported to me via the forums and friends in the game.</p><p>Do you have something useful to add?</p>

[Tyberi]

Well played illusionists destroy in PVP. Summoners are practically a wasted slot in raids outside of a conjurer for some pulling due to the overabundance of power management gear and abilities and much more solid DPS in either Sorcerer, and in the case of warlock more utility. Rangers are taking a large hit in PvP due to these changes, and their ability to solo and be effective group members is only going to go down as you decrease the effectiveness of their bows and lower their hit rate.So you were wrong on all counts.

[voxranger]

<cite>Tyberion@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Well played illusionists destroy in PVP. Summoners are practically a wasted slot in raids outside of a conjurer for some pulling due to the overabundance of power management gear and abilities and much more solid DPS, and in the case of warlock more utility, in either Sorcerer. Rangers are taking a large hit in PvP due to these changes, and their ability to solo is only going to go down as you decrease the effectiveness of their bows and lower their hit rate.So you were wrong on all counts.</blockquote><p>I agree with your comments about the summoners, I suppose i was generalizing there because conjies are often put in a raid slot for the power buffs. I have no experience raiding with necros.</p><p>In terms of the enchanters, what you are reporting is completely contradtictory to what has been reported to me. I keep hearing roots/mezzes/stuns are easily resisted and broken in pvp, putting an enchanter at a significant disadvantage.</p><p>In terms of ranger pvp and solo action, your points are valid and I considered those. However, I stil think the ranger, even after the nerfs, will still be an excellent solo and pvp class, even if it just means it is harder to play. Just my opinion though and time wil tell.</p><p>Thanks for responding - </p>

[Tyberi]

Like I said, well played illusionists, most on PvP are no where near well played. I really hope these boards aren't your sources...So your point is that while they are nerfing the class to be harder to play it is still going to be an excellent solo and heroic group class despite having its primary and only real ability, ranged damage, cut down significantly due to damage and hit rate decreases.How does that makes sense?

[Barakuz]

<cite>kartikeya wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Since everyone's asking questions now, I have a few questions worth pondering.</p><p>Why do I pay significantly more than any other class to do my job?</p><p>Why are classes with much more utility also given much more DPS, and why is this considered balanced?</p><p>Why do you think it's reasonable that ranger DPS essentially has not changed from T7? RSB is overpowered now? That's such nonsense. It wasn't overpowered when everyone was doing T7 damage, why is it over powered when everyone else is doing T8 damage?</p><p>Why are rangers restricted from receiving benefit from so many buffs, specifically, procs?</p><p>Why do I see items that give bonuses to both ranged and melee double attack, but the ranged double attack bonus is only half?</p><p>Why do so many people say that rangers are nowhere near assassin DPS (non-rangers included), and yet you insist that this damage is 'fine'? Does this mean that you think rangers are on par with assassins? If this is the case, who is wrong here? If we are, what are we doing collectively that has caused us to all come to the same wrong conclusion, and what are you doing correctly that has brought you to the right conclusion?</p><p>Why do you think that letting ranger damage scale up logically to T8 would overpower us? Wouldn't this have been the result if the arrow mechanics issues didn't exist,  as we sure heard you say they didn't for quite some time? Isn't the point of a new tier that a class gets better at what it does?</p><p>Why have the hitrates on our arrows been nerfed?</p><p>Why was the response to huge dissatisfaction in a segment of your playerbase and a large number of account cancellations to make the cause of their dissatisfaction even greater and to try and pass it off as something that was actually beneficial?</p><p>Those are a few questions I'm very interested in having answered. And also, while flames are certainly not <i>constructive </i>feedback, and shouldn't be encouraged, they are nevertheless still feedback of a sort. The fact that you had trouble picking out the calmer posts in the sea of anger and frothing outcry is probably a sign that people who were already very upset are now <i>angrier. </i></p><p>One last question. Why have I hit the cancellation button on my account yet again so I won't be paying for another month of EQ2? *sigh* That question I CAN answer. See above.</p></blockquote><p>Well said <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/e8a506dc4ad763aca51bec4ca7dc8560.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> - Please answer these questions for us !!!</p><p>I have told our current Ranger who has been holding out hope for this LU's changes to re-roll another toon, as he will not have a raid spot moving forward. Why bring a dps class to a raid, when there are others available that provide additional benefit. Our Assassin absolutely owns our Ranger...the Ranger is RSB equiped and knows how to play his class. The Assassin is also very good, but completely dominates the parse (hell and he isn't even a DE). This thread is full of Rangers completely frustrated by the utter stupidity of the proposed changes, I would suggest either considering some of these suggestions or just put us out of our misery and completely delete the Ranger class. These supposed changes in LU44 are nothing short of an insult to the people playing this "broken" class. Your promises in the Dev chat have turned into falsehoods together with a significant amount of "bait and switch" tactics. Honestly Aerelik you should be ashamed with these proposed changes...they do nothing for Rangers, but at least you get to tell your Boss "Hey I listened to them, and made some changes". I had a joke with a fellow guild leader the other day - my comment was " As Aerelik has been brought kicking an screaming to the party, will the changes be punative against Rangers" - Way to go you proved me right.</p><p>Honestly, this has been the most frustrating, disapointing and overall the worst experience I have had in EQ2 over the past 3 years. I feel insulted by these proposed changes, and the blatent falsehoods and lack of clear communication further fuel this frustration. I know in RL if I treated my customers the way you have treated us, I would be out of business in a heartbeat.</p><p>Expect to see you diminishing player base further erode based on this complete rubbish that is LU44 or "The Great Lie" as it will become known.</p><p>Regards</p><p> Bara</p>

[Sinful One]

im guessing about 80% if not more of the rangers complaining (me included) are people who like to raid, and alot of them are now missing on raid spots due to they are low dps with no utility (except the pathetic MELEE buff in group with this LU).Yes we can solo well.Yes we can do dps in a group well-ish because its burst.In Raids we are not what we should be, and that to be childish isent fair, we pay for all the stuff already mentioned and still even with top buffs we barely, if at all, come up to other Scouts/Sorcs.Please just give us proper damage bows, as it stands its pointless to be a ranger if you want to raid.I believe it was said you would read our feedback from Test to see how we have found it, you also said it would be looked at monday.

[voxranger]

<cite>Tyberion@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote>Like I said, well played illusionists, most on PvP are no where near well played. I really hope these boards aren't your sources...So your point is that while they are nerfing the class to be harder to play it is still going to be an excellent solo and heroic group class despite having its primary and only real ability, ranged damage, cut down significantly due to damage and hit rate decreases.How does that makes sense?</blockquote><p>Never said it made sense, lol. And really, my point was not at all that I support the changes - I hate nerfs of any form to any class. </p><p>My point is that even with the changes, Rangers will still be able to solo effectively, more so than a number of classes. In regards to pvp, as you have noted with the enchanters, its the player behind the toon that really matters, so excellent pvp rangers, is suspect, will still be excellent pvp rangers.</p>

[T1663R]

<cite>voxranger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>My point is that even with the changes, Rangers will still be able to solo effectively, more so than a number of classes. In regards to pvp, as you have noted with the enchanters, its the player behind the toon that really matters, so excellent pvp rangers, is suspect, will still be excellent pvp rangers. </blockquote>i think in some ways you are right, in some others you are wrong.atm rangers have a hard time to keep up with the crazy melee dps of the other classes, while they can burn us rangers down in 2-3 seconds, we have to kite them for like 12 or more seconds before they are dead. (im talking about fights with skilled players)but with all these nerfs its just getting really anoying and im sure you will agree that some of them are just not ok.(like completely do deactivate a shortimer for pvp and so on...)if you compare a really good equiped ranger and assasin in pvp fights there may be a chance that the ranger is better, but it is really hard to get good ranger items. most things only boost melee skills.the rest of the items buff ranged only half of the melee values ...but this topic isnt about that issue.its about the thing they told us which would be our "fix".i think this is a generally problem and it counts for all, ranger in solo,pvp and raids.we are simply not able to put up the t8 dps we should be able to like the melees...<span class="postbody"><cite>kartikeyas questions really sums it all up, but i dont think we will get an good answer or a good fix, just something like no you are all fine...after he postet that A*****k will jump out his chair and sings his "yeah yeah i still will be 1st on our raid parser for long time yeah yeah" song</cite></span> and his evil plans to get all rangers betray will become even more reachable ... sry couldnt hold myself back ;(

[voxranger]

<cite>Domo@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>voxranger wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>My point is that even with the changes, Rangers will still be able to solo effectively, more so than a number of classes. In regards to pvp, as you have noted with the enchanters, its the player behind the toon that really matters, so excellent pvp rangers, is suspect, will still be excellent pvp rangers. </blockquote>i think in some ways you are right, in some others you are wrong.atm rangers have a hard time to keep up with the crazy melee dps of the other classes, while they can burn us rangers down in 2-3 seconds, we have to kite them for like 12 or more seconds before they are dead. (im talking about fights with skilled players)but with all these nerfs its just getting really anoying and im sure you will agree that some of them are just not ok.(like completely do deactivate a shortimer for pvp and so on...)if you compare a really good equiped ranger and assasin in pvp fights there may be a chance that the ranger is better,but it is really hard to get good ranger items. most things only boost melee skills.the rest of the items buff ranged only half of the melee values ...but this topic isnt about that issue.its about the thing they told us which would be our "fix".i think this is a generally problem and it counts for all, ranger in solo,pvp and raids.we are simply not able to put up the t8 dps we should be able to like the melees...<span class="postbody"><cite>kartikeyas questions really sums it all up, but i dont think we will get an good answer or a good fix, just something like no you are all fine...after he postet that A*****k will jump out his chair and sings his "yeah yeah i still will be 1st on our raid parser for long time yeah yeah" song</cite></span> and his evil plans to get all rangers betray will become even more reachable ... sry couldnt hold myself back ;(</blockquote><p>I agree with you. I suppose in some respects, I am simply trying to remain positive for what has been an utterly frustrating experience with my ranger, who is also my main.</p><p>I have already made the decision to basically shelf him, and my earlier posts were simply meant to help remove any additional false hopes we may have within the context of what Aeralik says (or doesnt say) about fixes to our dps, so that we can accept the reality of what is and move on in the way each of us sees fit. My perception of our issue is that the ranger will pegged exactly where they are now in terms of dps progression and raid desireabilty/utility. Aeralik said many times in the past, our dps was fine, and in my view, the reason the arrows were not fixed for so long was because he simply viewed the problem as an annoyance given that dps was in line with what he wanted anyway. So he fixed the mechanics, nerfed auto attack related damage, and boosed ca's a touch to compensate and bring dps in line with where it was prior to the fix. </p><p>At this point, and given how long this matter has drug on with Aeralik repeatedly clinging to his beleif that our dps is fine, I personally dont believe any more expressions about our dps concerns are going to bring about changes anytime soon. I said in the ranger forums, the reality is probably the only thing that will stimulate SOE to make changes will be a dramatic drop off in ranger play time, either by cancellation or by character shelfing. </p><p>My ranger was my main, and looks like now hes pretty much gonna be relegated to a pvp toon that I play when I simply want to pvp with a ranger, and some harvesting until my other characters level up thier harvesting skills. Im currently leveling a swash and a dirge, and will decide between the two which ones will be my next main.</p><p>Short story version: I know some folks consider the quick fix to the over-nerfing of our damage a victory of sorts, but if some are thinking this is the first step to getting our dps corrected for T8, well, i think they are setting themselves up for more disappointment......</p>

[Sydares]

<cite>kartikeya wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Since everyone's asking questions now, I have a few questions worth pondering.</p><p>Why do I pay significantly more than any other class to do my job?</p><p>Why are classes with much more utility also given much more DPS, and why is this considered balanced?</p><p>Why do you think it's reasonable that ranger DPS essentially has not changed from T7? RSB is overpowered now? That's such nonsense. It wasn't overpowered when everyone was doing T7 damage, why is it over powered when everyone else is doing T8 damage?</p><p>Why are rangers restricted from receiving benefit from so many buffs, specifically, procs?</p><p>Why do I see items that give bonuses to both ranged and melee double attack, but the ranged double attack bonus is only half?</p><p>Why do so many people say that rangers are nowhere near assassin DPS (non-rangers included), and yet you insist that this damage is 'fine'? Does this mean that you think rangers are on par with assassins? If this is the case, who is wrong here? If we are, what are we doing collectively that has caused us to all come to the same wrong conclusion, and what are you doing correctly that has brought you to the right conclusion?</p><p>Why do you think that letting ranger damage scale up logically to T8 would overpower us? Wouldn't this have been the result if the arrow mechanics issues didn't exist,  as we sure heard you say they didn't for quite some time? Isn't the point of a new tier that a class gets better at what it does?</p><p>Why have the hitrates on our arrows been nerfed?</p><p>Why was the response to huge dissatisfaction in a segment of your playerbase and a large number of account cancellations to make the cause of their dissatisfaction even greater and to try and pass it off as something that was actually beneficial?</p><p>Those are a few questions I'm very interested in having answered. And also, while flames are certainly not <i>constructive </i>feedback, and shouldn't be encouraged, they are nevertheless still feedback of a sort. The fact that you had trouble picking out the calmer posts in the sea of anger and frothing outcry is probably a sign that people who were already very upset are now <i>angrier. </i></p><p>One last question. Why have I hit the cancellation button on my account yet again so I won't be paying for another month of EQ2? *sigh* That question I CAN answer. See above.</p></blockquote>Well spoken, and well compiled.Any input, Aeralik?

[Lohkei]

<p><a rel="nofollow" href="http://eq2.allakhazam.com/wiki/Dev_Chat_Feb_28_2008" target="_blank">http://eq2.allakhazam.com/wiki/Dev_...hat_Feb_28_2008</a>Beele: Do the devs see it more important to keep ranger DPS down and give them more group/raid utility, or will there be an ammo fix so that in light of having very little utility Rangers can be mostly T1 DPS again?Aeralik: I am currently looking into some of the ranger issues. The arrows will be made level 70 min level with a level 80 use level. Overall they will get a slight rise to dps from combat arts and I added a bit of utility to them as well.Aeralik: so stayed tuned for gu44 there should be some nice changes for you guys </p><p>Some how I feel lied too.</p>

[Aeralik]

Sorry you feel that way but I do not see how I am lying. I did exactly to the letter what I said I would do. The ammo is now level 80 and the bows scale accordingly. Rangers got a bit of utility in the form of a powerful group buff. You also got the slight increase to CA damage. Please note I never said arrows would scale to 80 and you would get the complete current damage you see on live today. If you thought that then my apologies but my previous statements always implied that any changes would be a small boost which is what you are getting from auto attack and combat arts. In some cases older items will take a larger hit but that is part of making the system more intuitive and better scaling for the future.

[Mithren_Nexus]

<p>I really don't see why ppl want Utility on a ranger, we're supposed to be a pure DPS class [I cannot control my vocabulary] are you guys thinking anyway?</p><p> I on certain fights can keep up with or beat our Sas, depends on the fight, we are not a burst dps class like assassins or even swashi's, we can put out a high lvl of sustained dps. Our Sas spikes at over 10k in Kor Sha which i certainly can't do, and at the end of those fights it's normally me round 6k, Sas 7.5k, but then when we hit orange mobs etc i out dmg the Sas, so depends on the zone and the fight, we cant top every parse and neither can they. I also have good Brigs and Swashis in my guild that can also at times beat me, burst dps once again. But mostly its the assassin and myself at the top of the melee dps.</p><p> After playing round with arrows etc on raids, i think lossing the plus to hit rate would be our biggest loss, were better off keeping the bow dmg how it is and making sure auto attack hits most of the time instead of the other way round, like i said i lost alot of dps due to missed auto attack. I would prefer to hit at a slightly lower dmg consistently rather than a high amount hit and miss, but i think maybe all melee/ranged hit rates are being changed so this will negate the loss of arrow accuracy, i'm not 100% sure on this matter, someone will need to confirm that.</p><p>I know i will get flack for this post and to be honest i thought very similar to most of you about this topic also and was pretty [Removed for Content], but i think if you sit back and think it over properly you'll see its not all bad, i think the worst thing about it is players with lower lvl gear eg no epics etc or not being able to get them not really keeping up, but trust me when i say, higher hit rates are better than higher dmg inconsistantly.</p><p>P.S. thats using the Fabled Eagle's Talon, DA for the win!</p>