Berserkers looking for an answer, a comment, anything... pretty please... with a cherry on top...

[Cmos]

<p>Due to recent events, the berserker community is very unsettled, the main thing we seem to be looking for at this time are some answers, simple questions that should have simple answers...</p><p>Primarily...</p><p>What are your (the Developers) plans (if any) for the Berserker class?</p><p>What is the berserkers role intended to be?</p><p>Is there a fix slated for Adrenaline?</p><p>Is anything going to be done about the negative impact diminishing returns has on our class defining abilities?</p><p>Please see the Berserker class forum for more info and countless threads containing our issues, ideas, comments, etc...</p><p>Thank You for your time.</p>

[Gnobrin]

<p>I'll be happy to forward this to the developers, and see if there is any information to give.  As soon as I hear anything, I'll post it back here.</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p>

[Cmos]

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'll be happy to forward this to the developers, and see if there is any information to give.  As soon as I hear anything, I'll post it back here.</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p></blockquote>Thank you

[LygerT]

i'm still working on getting the list of suggestions from the berserker players to have stickied, pretty much everything is already listed in the main complaint thread but it also has gotten pretty lengthy so i figured it wouldn't get any attention unless it is watered down to the main points in the thread. giving it a few more days but if i hear word from someone that the issues have all been noted i will save the time putting up the sticky.

[Cmos]

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>i'm still working on getting the list of suggestions from the berserker players to have stickied, pretty much everything is already listed in the main complaint thread but it also has gotten pretty lengthy so i figured it wouldn't get any attention unless it is watered down to the main points in the thread. giving it a few more days but if i hear word from someone that the issues have all been noted i will save the time putting up the sticky.</blockquote><p>I'm sure it would help and go a long way, please do it. </p><p>The questions I presented were simply things I recalled seeing time and time again, some of the more pressing ones at least. Regardless, make the sticky, more info can't hurt if it's organized in a presentable way as opposed to the very lengthy, sometimes incoherent threads we have <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[LygerT]

<p>yea i know, i'm just giving it some time to let people put their lists together, likely by the weekend i'll start making it. </p><p>glad to see PR and the devs finally putting out the effort to let everyone know what is going on, that is definitely something many people wanted to see happen. </p>

[vladsamier]

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'll be happy to forward this to the developers, and see if there is any information to give.  As soon as I hear anything, I'll post it back here.</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p></blockquote>A certain beserker has asked Aeralik in game IIRC about these issues being asked here, and pretty much Aeralik's response was " LOLZ WAT IZ A ZERKER?!?!?"

[Zeuhl]

 I'm just happy to see a red name posting in here. That atleast lets me know that someone from SoE is aware of our concerns. If anything is going to change however remains to be seen but it's a start. 1 of our biggest issues was the lack of any response from SoE, so thank you Gnobrin.

[Powers]

<cite>Zeuhl@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote> I'm just happy to see a red name posting in here. That atleast lets me know that someone from SoE is aware of our concerns. If anything is going to change however remains to be seen but it's a start. 1 of our biggest issues was the lack of any response from SoE, so thank you Gnobrin.</blockquote>The developers read the forums.  They read the forums so much they don't have time to post in every thread they read.  In all cases, one should assume the developers are aware of any widespread concerns voiced on the forums.By the way, I play a Berserker (level 43 now) as my main.  Haven't noticed any problems.  Should I have?Powers  &8^]

[LygerT]

<p>you won't notice any problems until you have max gear/AA, then you'll start to see the problems. </p><p>if the devs read these forums then they obviously aren't taking the complaints seriously or bothered to test the issues zerks are complaining about or simply don't care which has led so many to betray- my point being in just a few words is always good to see from any of the devs or PR that what people write is read and noted, hopefully these issues do get noted and not blown off. i see my zerk can fetch twice as much on bazaar as a guard compared to if it was as a zerk.. i don't know if guilds will even allow me to continue raiding, if so that's it. </p><p>i'm glad to see Gnobrin posted but whether anything will change, only time will tell. </p>

[Zeuhl]

<cite>Powers wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zeuhl@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote> I'm just happy to see a red name posting in here. That atleast lets me know that someone from SoE is aware of our concerns. If anything is going to change however remains to be seen but it's a start. 1 of our biggest issues was the lack of any response from SoE, so thank you Gnobrin.</blockquote>The developers read the forums.  They read the forums so much they don't have time to post in every thread they read.  In all cases, one should assume the developers are aware of any widespread concerns voiced on the forums.By the way, I play a Berserker (level 43 now) as my main.  Haven't noticed any problems.  Should I have?Powers  &8^]</blockquote><p>  You know what they say about assuming right? If they read everything and that's all they did our other post wouldn't have gotten to what 13 pages with still no red name in it.</p><p>  Most of the issues we are talking about are when you hit max level and start hitting the end game instances and raids. It's not so much noticible when you're still leveling up but you'll see what we mean when you hit 80 and get into the harder parts of the game.</p>

[Gautsu]

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'll be happy to forward this to the developers, and see if there is any information to give.  As soon as I hear anything, I'll post it back here.</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p></blockquote>We can but hope

[Gisallo]

<cite>Inquis@Kithicor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'll be happy to forward this to the developers, and see if there is any information to give.  As soon as I hear anything, I'll post it back here.</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p></blockquote>A certain beserker has asked Aeralik in game IIRC about these issues being asked here, and pretty much Aeralik's response was " LOLZ WAT IZ A ZERKER?!?!?"</blockquote><p>In all fairness he is the Assassin/Ranger dev but also Aeralik was the guy who said NOTHING was wrong with Rangers since Kunark came out.  Even when a tier 8 bow did less damage than a tier 7 because of the arrow mechanics.  He also said "rangers were fine" when it was pointed out that the class (along with Assassins) was said by SOE themselves to be a "top pf the parse" class due to no utility, but was being out parsed by Conjourers, Swashies, Brigands...on lets just say ALL other dps classes with utility before Kunark came out.  It took him about a year to change his tune and even that was only after Rothgar came on to that thread and said "yeah we're listening".  That appears to have been at least partially prompted by the fact that Aeralik was actually threatening Rangers with a nerf if they kept complaining on another forum. <shrug>  So lets see I started this game playing a Ranger last year.  I just started playing a Berserker this year, either its all my fault due to Karmic debt or I just know how to pick em <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> </p>

[Zeuhl]

  Hehe you forgot to mention that Aeralik was the dev who was ridiculing zerks on <i>that</i> other forum.

[Powers]

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>if the devs read these forums then they obviously aren't taking the complaints seriously or bothered to test the issues zerks are complaining about or simply don't care which has led so many to betray-</p></blockquote>... or they are still investigating the problem and possible solutions.Why always assume the worst?Powers  &8^]

[Truck]

<cite>Gnobrin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'll be happy to forward this to the developers, and see if there is any information to give.  As soon as I hear anything, I'll post it back here.</p><p>~Gnobrin!</p></blockquote><i>Hope</i> is the first step on the road to <i>dissapointment.</i>

[Gemo]

<cite>Zeuhl@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Powers wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zeuhl@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote> I'm just happy to see a red name posting in here. That atleast lets me know that someone from SoE is aware of our concerns. If anything is going to change however remains to be seen but it's a start. 1 of our biggest issues was the lack of any response from SoE, so thank you Gnobrin.</blockquote>The developers read the forums.  They read the forums so much they don't have time to post in every thread they read.  In all cases, one should assume the developers are aware of any widespread concerns voiced on the forums.By the way, I play a Berserker (level 43 now) as my main.  Haven't noticed any problems.  Should I have?Powers  &8^]</blockquote><p>  You know what they say about assuming right? If they read everything and that's all they did our other post wouldn't have gotten to what 13 pages with still no red name in it.</p><p>  Most of the issues we are talking about are when you hit max level and start hitting the end game instances and raids. It's not so much noticible when you're still leveling up but you'll see what we mean when you hit 80 and get into the harder parts of the game.</p></blockquote><p>How far into the end game do you have to be to notice a problem? Why is it I have no problem with the class? Seems either ya'll need to betray to Guard because you don't know how to play a Berserker, or I'm playing a totally different game then you are. From 1-80 I've had no problems, Until I came here I didn't know there was one.</p><p>Please don't quote me and give me your laundry list of what's broke, I've read enough of the whining. I just can't belive I'm the only one that doesn't have a problem. I would quit the game before I betrayed to Guard, or even gave it a second thought. I still say if you betray, you sucked at being a Berserker in the first place and wanted to take the easy road. I say good riddance, the class is alot better without you.</p>

[Fiercemind]

<p>Gemo.</p><p>Please don't post about how the class does not need changed, unless you know what we are requesting to have resolved.  You've read the posts, but apparently you have not experienced them.  That is because we are refering to the end game content.  </p><p>Once you hit the end game, you raid.  That's the only challenging part of the game left unless you are grouping and helping others prepare for the end game.  I've defended a post of yours earlier, but I'm starting to wonder just how much you really understand the concept of the end game.  </p><p>Before you post and disagree with all the other zerkers, you need to qualify yourself.  </p><p>How many <b>ROK</b> raids have you been to? What Raid Zones?  What's your role that you play in them?  Has your guild beat any of them? </p>

[Zeuhl]

  Sometimes Gemo I want to choke you for telling us to betray. We DON'T want to betray we want our issues resolved.

[Cmos]

<cite>Gemo@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zeuhl@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Powers wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Zeuhl@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote> I'm just happy to see a red name posting in here. That atleast lets me know that someone from SoE is aware of our concerns. If anything is going to change however remains to be seen but it's a start. 1 of our biggest issues was the lack of any response from SoE, so thank you Gnobrin.</blockquote>The developers read the forums.  They read the forums so much they don't have time to post in every thread they read.  In all cases, one should assume the developers are aware of any widespread concerns voiced on the forums.By the way, I play a Berserker (level 43 now) as my main.  Haven't noticed any problems.  Should I have?Powers  &8^]</blockquote><p>  You know what they say about assuming right? If they read everything and that's all they did our other post wouldn't have gotten to what 13 pages with still no red name in it.</p><p>  Most of the issues we are talking about are when you hit max level and start hitting the end game instances and raids. It's not so much noticible when you're still leveling up but you'll see what we mean when you hit 80 and get into the harder parts of the game.</p></blockquote><p>How far into the end game do you have to be to notice a problem? Why is it I have no problem with the class? Seems either ya'll need to betray to Guard because you don't know how to play a Berserker, or I'm playing a totally different game then you are. From 1-80 I've had no problems, Until I came here I didn't know there was one.</p><p>Please don't quote me and give me your laundry list of what's broke, I've read enough of the whining. I just can't belive I'm the only one that doesn't have a problem. I would quit the game before I betrayed to Guard, or even gave it a second thought. I still say if you betray, you sucked at being a Berserker in the first place and wanted to take the easy road. I say good riddance, the class is alot better without you.</p></blockquote><p>You seem to forget that the #1 WW zerk betrayed to guard, among many many others that held the MT spot in many raid guilds... tells the whole story in and of itself right there... </p><p>If you don't believe there is a problem or don't want to help fix it, save your posts for something else. You obviously don't understand the game mechanics and the way they work to be making a viable comment one way or the other... I mean... you're using a tower shield... sorry</p>

[Gemo]

<cite>Zeuhl@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>  Sometimes Gemo I want to choke you for telling us to betray. We DON'T want to betray we want our issues resolved. </blockquote><p>"I would quit the game before I betrayed to Guard, or even gave it a second thought." </p><p>I hope that's not that quote that would lead you to belive I want anybody to betray. I don't have issues with the class, That's why I added the line, and it's my Opinion:</p><p>"I still say if you betray, you sucked at being a Berserker in the first place and wanted to take the easy road."</p><p>That's what I'm hearing, If it's easier for a Guard to MT raids then it is a Berserker, But not Impossiable for a Berserker... That statement is True.</p>

[Gemo]

<cite>Cmos@Butcherblock wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>You seem to forget that the #1 WW zerk betrayed to guard, among many many others that held the MT spot in many raid guilds... tells the whole story in and of itself right there... </p><p>If you don't believe there is a problem or don't want to help fix it, save your posts for something else. You obviously don't understand the game mechanics and the way they work to be making a viable comment one way or the other... I mean... you're using a tower shield... sorry</p></blockquote>Oh wow, the #1 Berserker did it, that changes... Nothing. and don't hate because I can use a tower shield better then a Buckler, from what I've heard not many Berserkers know how to use a tower shield. I'm sorry I don't have the problems that you or EVERY other Berseker has, but I'm not going to sit around and let people talk [Removed for Content] about my class.

[Zeuhl]

  None of us are talking sh*t about <i>your</i> class. We're explaining the issues that <i>all </i>of us are dealing with in <i>our</i> class. I can use a tower as well, in fact there are pulls during which I need one. The simple facts are that it's been proven that a buckler does more dps and that it's easier to maintain aggro than with a tower.

[kenm]

I'm laughing how according to eq2players, Gemo has less HP than me and I haven't played at all since RoK came out, still level 70 even.You seriously have no idea how end game raiding works whatsoever.  It's not like group content where you can take six shadowknights in and still come out on top, you do everything in your power to play at peak efficiency.  For Berserkers, this means not playing a berserker.  Even in EoF, Guardians were closing the DPS gap considerably while still having significantly better tanking utilities such as an hp buff, tower of stone, and reinforcement.  I cried foul, knew the situation was only going to get worse when I saw our t7 fabled set pants had freaking health regen on them, but everybody else preached about how "awesome" Zerkers were. Right, well, I don't even have to play to see how this has turned out in RoK.  The DPS gap is more or less the same as it was in EoF, while guardians have gotten a huge defensive boost that further separates Guardians and Berserkers.  Nice job devs, really making me want to buy RoK and play again by crapping all over my class.EDIT: And for the record, there's no way to "use" a tower shield.  There's no skills Berserker's have the utilize one in the least, not like Guardians with ToS.  Assuming Berserkers don't know how to... equip a shield, is a tad insulting, to say the least.  But the real fault here is that you aren't good enough at math to make proper judgment about what's best for your character.

[LygerT]

<p>just ignore Gemo, his posts are along the lines of EoF still and have no bearing on mid to endgame RoK content where DPS would rip aggro off him so fast it would make his head spin.</p><p> Virtues guard gives more avoidance than tower but tower gives a few % more block, i would have to be ignorant to give up all that extra hate gen just for a few % bonus to block.. that is how it is and you can't change my opinion on that. you can switch out a shield in combat so why not utilize both? yea...</p><p>i value our class as much if not more than anyone around here but to think there is no issues with the class, you must be blind or simply not looking at what we have, lack or excel in. what we have is superior AE DPS in an expansion that has little to no AE encounters, and that pretty much sums it up without even going into what we lack.</p>

[Pyronick]

<p>I would just like to point out that some concrete information IS needed, and sooner rather than later.</p><p>If the class is just not going to be viable in T8, or if the devs are going to take a year to analyze and fix the issues, that's fine.  I'd just like to know before I betray, make a significant investment in plat to purchase guardian masters, and jump through all the hoops just to find that two weeks after I do that someone has an acute attack of good sense and fixes the class.</p><p>I love the class.  I love playing the class, but I think we all deserve to have the correct information to make decisions for ourselves and our guilds.  Whatever the devs want, it's their game, I just need to know...sooner rather than later.</p>

[Harlon]

Love seeing a casual player making comments based off what a raid player will say. So far as it goes, Gemo is right, in the heroic instances i have absolutely no issues, we are a great class <clap>From my experiences in raids, t2 and above anyway, we  are a sub-par tank class that offers little to nothing to a raid. Yes i have tanked T1-T3, and even some of VP. But that at the cost of our healers pulling their hair out and having to bust their butts 5 times harder to keep me up than when our Guard tanks the same mobs. I rolled a Zerk for personal reasons, i love the class, will never betray. I do NOT want to be a carbon copy of a Guard, or any other tank. however, with the current "balance" of tanks, i do see the Zerk class as needing a massive overhaul. Our snap agro is a joke, our dps is comparably a joke (to most other tank classes anyway) and our survivability is in the dumpster. When i saw the post that this was being looked into and we would hear something, i let out a sigh of relief. Now i am trying to be as patient as possible to wait for a reply, and see where it will all go.  All i can really say is, i am out right /praying that the devs will take us seriously and look into fixing our class

[Obadiah]

<cite>Harlon@Blackburrow wrote:</cite><blockquote>From my experiences in raids, t2 and above anyway, we  are a sub-par tank class that offers little to nothing to a raid. Yes i have tanked T1-T3, and even some of VP. But that at the cost of our healers pulling their hair out and having to bust their butts 5 times harder to keep me up than when our Guard tanks the same mobs. I rolled a Zerk for personal reasons, i love the class, will never betray. I do NOT want to be a carbon copy of a Guard, or any other tank. however, with the current "balance" of tanks, i do see the Zerk class as needing a massive overhaul. Our snap agro is a joke, our dps is comparably a joke (to most other tank classes anyway) and our survivability is in the dumpster. When i saw the post that this was being looked into and we would hear something, i let out a sigh of relief. Now i am trying to be as patient as possible to wait for a reply, and see where it will all go.  All i can really say is, i am out right /praying that the devs will take us seriously and look into fixing our class</blockquote>OK, I'll agree with you on snap aggro - or lack thereof. And that there are other things that are broken (can't let a post go by without mentioning Adrenaline) and that diminishing returns have essentially rendered our Berserk moot. But defensively, on paper at least, I don't see why it would be a big difference. I would just like someone to explain what makes us so subpar defensively?Before getting the 70%+ avoidance from the epic, about 1000 HPs and 29 Defense seems to me to be the difference between a Berserker and a similarly equipped Guardian. Not saying that's NOTHING, but 5 times harder? What am I missing? ToS, sure, sure. But Adrenaline, even broken, generally works quite fine while tanking since you're pretty much always going to be berserk. And I would wager that 50% of all damage for 32 seconds prevents more damage than avoiding 3 hits. I don't see our DPS being a problem either, at least not with respect to any other class except Guardians. And not so much even sub-par to Guardians, but on-par, which is problematic in that they have 3 threat position tools vs. our 1, and 2 additional hate-related tools to boot. 

[Xita]

<p>hey, i might become #1 zerker on my server if nothing is done soon with all of them betraying to guard... yay me!</p><p>I do wonder how hard it would be to imp some nice content with groups of mobs, maybe kurn's tower?</p><p>and yeah agree with adrenaline fix... pretty much only use it after i force myself to zerk...</p>

[Nembutal]

Gemo... please stop.There are 3 classes of people in EQ21.) Those that know their class and don't post2.) Those that Know their class and post3.) Those that are mediocre and Post4.) Those that are Mediocre and don't post5.) Those that are horrible and don't post.6.) Those that are horrible and do post.You fall into category 6... You are doing more damage to the class you supposedly love than every single Guardian that plays EQ2... and they WANT to be better than us.Combat engines run on math... they don't run on "what Gemo thinks"  they run exclusively on math... all the math shows your "better DPS and aggro with a tower shield" to be complete bull.  Every other thing you have ever stated completely goes against fundamental mathematical laws... like say 1+1=2... to 2-1=1... SIMPLE rules... easy to follow rules.So here is my challenge to you... create a new thread... give us the math behind your tower shield "facts" and if I reply back with what the math is and more people believe you... than believe me... I will be quiet.... if the reverse holds true... then you can be quiet.  Thankfully I will not be losing...Have a "blissful day"

[Fonil]

I really dont think we need all that much for the class, nothing earth shattering no game changing mechanics. Ive been saying it for quite a while what our class needsNeed1. Snap Aggro tool (this is deffinatly what the class needs the most more than anything)2. Fix for adrenaline3. Utility something that is on par with what zerk once gave to a group. Want1. Since guards can now use TS with buckler spec from their mythical, how about removing negative effects of stances or temp buffs on our mythical2. VP set gear needs a pretty big upgrade for the most part minus what like 2 pieces its pretty much utter crap3. More class defining zerk However thats just my opinion, my wants and needs. I feel my opinion is qualified for I am the MT of a near end game guild I only hope that we can come to agree on what the class needs so we can better voice our opinion as a group.

[Nembutal]

Fonil... that's mostly what we want... you forgot "fix melee hit rates" but that's not just a zerker thing.Our snap aggro... and group utility are down in comparison with guardians and the DPS is no longer really in our favor over guards... those are the main issues... Adrenaline is broken... that's a fact.The group utility is in essense a factor of 2 things 1.) Broken zerk proc due to diminished returns2.) DPS is not at the same ratio in comparison to other tanks as it once was.If zerk-proc was fixed and our DPS was bumped back up to be noticeably different than a guardian our utility would be back as a "DPS increaser"  Which realistically is all we ever had as utility.Paladins have rezShadowknights have evacBruisers have raid wide hate controlMonks have raid wide haste.All of that beats our utility as guardians and zerks but we are more specialized as tanks than the others... so our utility would be lower... where zerker should shine is in dps vs a guardian... where as a guardian should have a tanking edge.. although not what they currently have if they have their mythical epic.  The epic they have now in comparison to every other class is basically game breaking.  I lean towards bumping other people's epics up just as much because epics are supposed to be powerful but many (like zerker and fury) got epics that do not enhance thier main role... a zerker doesn't become a better tank.. and a fury doesn't become a better healer.  I personally have major issues with that... since I have those 2 classes and use them for tanking and healing... which was THE CLASS DESIGN.So realistically yes not much needs fixed... however what items do need fixed are pretty critical for our class... and then the epic implementation was flat out horrible which just compounded the issue.

[Tomanator]

<p>I agree totally with the last 2 posts.</p><p>Can Gemo please answer this question: What is our role on most RoK raids other then providing a 100HP per tick of regen? </p><p>And please dont tell us DPS, when on single mob fights Guards parse on par with me if they are not in Def Stance.</p>

[DasanW]

<cite>FonilUT wrote:</cite><blockquote>I really dont think we need all that much for the class, nothing earth shattering no game changing mechanics. Ive been saying it for quite a while what our class needsNeed1. Snap Aggro tool (this is deffinatly what the class needs the most more than anything)2. Fix for adrenaline3. Utility something that is on par with what zerk once gave to a group. Want1. Since guards can now use TS with buckler spec from their mythical, how about removing negative effects of stances or temp buffs on our mythical2. VP set gear needs a pretty big upgrade for the most part minus what like 2 pieces its pretty much utter crap3. More class defining zerk However thats just my opinion, my wants and needs. I feel my opinion is qualified for I am the MT of a near end game guild I only hope that we can come to agree on what the class needs so we can better voice our opinion as a group.</blockquote><p>Very nicely put.</p><p>I fall into, at least in my opinion, a knowledgeable Zerker who does not post a lot.  I read the various boards at least a few times a week, so I see what is being said and analyzed.  </p><p>Is the Zerker class broken? No, is it viable in situations (i.e. groups)? Yes, is it on PAR with Guardians in tanking, survivability, agro control, defensive abilities? Not even close!  We have always been the ‘tank light' warrior, but with the benefit of added DPS for agro control, and burning down the mobs faster, when in essence was supposed to make us a viable class.  Can a guild raid with a Zerker? Sure, but why when you can make it easier, quicker, with less stress, with a Guardian?   Even in comparing us to Crusaders we do not have the "Warrior" abilities that they have been given to them, which in essence we should have from the start (again, agro/snap agro).  </p><p>We have some very clear issues, and I think there is a lot of good ideas out here, I just hope that some are actually looked at by someone (more than just the biased Aeralik).</p>

[Ni]

I have played this game and my berserker since release. I play 2-3 days a week max so that's why I only hit 80 last month, but that's neither here nor there. Those of us who have been around pre-LU13(?) remember that guardians used to be extremely boring to play. They have been the sturdier tank since the game launched and I don't think any berserker denies that or wants it to change. However, way back when, the devs started to boost the guardian's dps in several ways (moved them to berserker damage table, revamped the damage on the CAs, etc.) that Kemt has thoroughly described over the years. Berserkers have gone probably 18 months without any tweaks at all. None. Guardians have been getting tweaked a little bit every few updates. The pendulum has swung too far. Berserkers need some sturdy love,

[schizolic]

<p>It would probably be easy for them to add a +Ca damage mod to our berserk, but then again, its pretty easy to get that capped through gear (except for a couple of our ca's).  Same thing with DA and crit chance.  Maybe a boost to our max health would be good (but knowing the debs, it would be a bonus to our regen.... yay).  Or, maybe a small strikethrough chance, easily explained by the brutality of our hits (maybe 1% at app 1 and 4% for m1).  Once again, not huge, not game breaking, but a bit of a help.</p><p> Here's another suggestion, instead of giving us an ability that requires us to be berserk and still has a nasty penalty, how about just choosing one or the other, berserk requirement OR penalty.</p>

[JOHNRICE]

I don't know about you guys, but it sounds like the haste/dps mod cap should be raised to 120 before diminishing returns. Unless that'd unbalance the other classes. Otherwise I'd say berserkers should get a bump in HP and avoidance skills. Or maybe even further boost the HP regen skills, but I don't think those are going to help that much in raids and big groups.

[LordSaul]

<ul><li>Fix adrenaline - PLEASE! </li><li>Need Snap aggro? definately</li><li>Need a better representation of zerkers as a "regening-hard-to-put-down-monster" almost certainly</li></ul><p>Why not combine these last two? Instead of so much "always on" regen that actually doesn't really help in a raid (oo, an extra hundred odd per tick) why not turn this into a clicky. For example (game balance not included)</p><p> Ability: "Bring it on"</p><ul><li>duration 10 seconds</li><li>tick every second for say 1500 health health (at master)</li><li>open(?) AE aggro component based on heal value - the kind of snap aggro that death march seems to have for the SK</li><li>reuse timer of maybe 3-5 mins</li></ul><p>I might have over/under spec'd this, but it would certainly give the feel of a zerker in regen, while giving us a (slightly dangerous) yet very much needed snap aggro tool, pull this bad boy and our blue AE taunt at the same time and we should be every mobs friend once more...</p>

[Obadiah]

<cite>LordSaul wrote:</cite><blockquote><ul><li>Fix adrenaline - PLEASE! </li></ul></blockquote>Arg. It does get more and more frustrating every Test Update note that goes by with no change, particularly to Adrenaline. Looks like the bulk of 44 is out. No love.

[-Aonein-]

<p> If you start to look at the escalated stats on the items from one expasion to another you have to ask yourself how much more then game can give the way it is.</p><p> This late into the game I think its safe to say its time to let go of the all "balanced" arch type system and start to pre define classes into singular roles.</p><p> I personally do not care what they do with us, as long as they stick with the idea and run with it. DPS Tanks? Fine, give us more DPS utility other then Buckler line. Want to give us emergency abilities like Adrenaline? make it work right. Why even give us abilities like Adrenaline in the first place if we are DPS plate tanks?</p><p> I am simply tired of this up and down flavour of the month classes that arise from each expasion, 24 classes for this game is way too many and should have never been this big of a class list to begin with especially when you can only have 24 people total per raid. The stupid idea of the arch type system created this mentalility that anyone can do anything only to find out in raid content its the total opppsite and there is still the requirement for Guard/Templar like old school EQLive where it was Warrior/Cleric needed always, perfect example of this is PvP servers that are basically stuck a expasion behind to green con stuff out to trivialize it to get stuff done OR they Exile and join forces as if they were actually on a PvE server. Player percieved mentalility they say? Don't think so......</p><p> Without going on and on about it, ever since LU13, this game has stagnated and compiled issue upon issue with band aid fixes that havent been addressed when they should of been and more thought and fore sight should of gone into these classes then simply buffing a few classes each expasion then letting them die off over the next few.</p><p> Couple these issues with this game still runs like doo doo on top end machines built with todays technology and its frustration at its best when these games are meant to be enjoyable.</p><p> They have a chance to bring the game onto a balanced line in reguards to classes being set in stone so to speak with new AA lines in the next expasion, wether they will do it or not is yet to be seen and with SoE track record especially with this last expasion, I do not have high hopes.</p><p> Am I still enjoying the game? Im enjoying the notion that I haven't seen inside VP yet and as a 5 year EQLive player, would love to stay and see the zone plus other expasions they have instore that links all the lore together, that and friends is about the only thing keeping me here.</p><p> What has happened over the last few years SoE? Are you still all for the MMO industry? Do you still value us as customers? Where has the love gone, not to the berserker class but I am talking to the game in its entirety, quests, itemization, stat spread, dimininshing returns limited by caps because of these crazy items you bring out that are so easily obtainable. All this stuff that goes hand in hand that by passes so many levels of your customer quaility assurance people has alot of people bailing out right now. What I mean is, having quest rewards in solo instances or zones that are better then raid zones gear and the simple need to revamp these raid zone itemization tables to fall in line with the grand scheme of things 6 months after a expasion has been released........</p><p> Just not feeling the love anymore SoE, I feel your MMORPG section in the company is losing its grasp with real life players who pay the bills. What ever happened to one most single and easiest thing to implement in MMO history, risk (time spent playing) vs reward? Where did this go? And no im not even a hard core raider, i've become more of a part time raider, just raiding when ever I can due to work and real life commitments ie; kids etc etc.</p><p> Anyways, just feeling a little dissapointed right now and bummed out, if it wasnt for my obbsession with EQ lore and curious as to what the new lore in the new exapsion will be, I wouldn't be here and I must add that the lore is kinda just evaporating also, not very deep like it used to be.</p>

[schizolic]

i did notice that guards got more love in the next update....

[LygerT]

duh, cause you know it's such a broken class and all.... i think i'm [Removed for Content] wasting my time watering down this list, all it's going to do is make me more [Removed for Content] off i wasted my time.

[Davish_Darkwolf]

With games like Age of Conan, Warhammer Online or even WOW expansion coming out this year, SOE really needs to rethink their strategy towards EQ2 or we're about to see a massive exodus from this game.Where in the hell is the class definition in EQ2?  24 classes with a "you can do anything" system in mind, that doesnt work when it REALLY matters, specially in the end-game content.To be or not to be a Berzerker?   Our ZERKER state is completely useless when you have so many ways to be in "Haste mode" with other class skills or items.What's so special in being in Zerker mode? It isnt anymore.I remember the good old days when people actually praised me and said, hey your group buffs are GREAT.  Now is more like  "oh...  this guy gives us a bit more speed...  so what...  lets get a Guardian instead".If we are to be a DPS class in Plate, then let us be that, specialize our DPS abilities and our Zerker aspect.The buckler line being the best DPS choice is the most ridiculous thing in the Warrior tree.If you have the TANK tree (aka stamina) with the best DPS option, something is terribly wrong in here.Solutions - Improve our BERZERKER AAsFor the BESERKER TREE only  (yes, guardians left out here):- Shield Rage:   30 secs duration,  10secs re-use, works only while in Zerker mode - snap aggro skill that instantly increases hate for xxxx  and  more xxx each time the zerker is hit - only useable while wearing a SHIELD (of any kind)- Weapon specialization:   constant effect  while wearing a 2H weapon or Dual Wielding - increases critical percent by 20% - works only while in Zerker modeThere you have it, a Snap-Aggro  Zerker only skill.An option to make  2Handers or Dual Wielding  a valid option again for off-tank DPS.ALL IN THE ZERKER   AAs  tree.

[LygerT]

<p>we already have aggro tools, why don't people suggest revamping those for a snap aggro ability? insolence could easily have a +1 position modifier to make sure mobs like the adds on overking comes right to you and stay there, comparable to amends but still only temporary. we have a taunt proc stance, it needs a little love. defensive stance needs a taunt proc associated with it to be more viable for a zerk tanking to make up for our lack of attack skill in that stance, that or give it a bonus to attack skill to make sure we can hold aggro in defensive. </p><p>for the life of me i have never understood why guardians got the attack skill self buff over zerks, i mean in our rage i guess we just swing around violently without a care for hitting our enemy? come on...</p>

[Zeuhl]

 I can definately agree on that Lyger, there's no reason why I should hope for a warden just so I can get a +skills buff just so I can hit something in defensive. Why can't I hit stuff on my own? Shouldn't guardians have gotten a +defensive skills buff and zerks the +attack skills?

[LygerT]

<cite>Zeuhl@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote> I can definately agree on that Lyger, there's no reason why I should hope for a warden just so I can get a +skills buff just so I can hit something in defensive. Why can't I hit stuff on my own? Shouldn't guardians have gotten a +defensive skills buff and zerks the +attack skills?</blockquote>that's what you would believe by our class description but sadly it is one of the huge restrictions to our class and it's castration from tanking in defensive, even if we could take the hits.

[Bremer]

Originally with higher melee rates Guardians can hit more often, but we if we hit, we hit for more thanks to Beserk. They also have stuff like Precise Strike with build in guaranteed hit. Or their combat arts counterparts usually have higher minimum dmg and lower max dps, so they hit for or less the same number, while we can hit for a lot more (or less). I'd say the idea behind it is, that they are more designed as a precision tool and we as a tool of brute force, like an axe. With this was nothing wrong until EoF, when they changed the combat system so, that we can only cut holes in the air without melee skill buffs and at the same time don't hit for much more because of dimishing returns on haste and DPS. So the problem is that they changed the system we were designed for, but not us.

[Zeuhl]

 Kinda evens out to the same if they hit more often and we just hit harder. Honestly I think we should hit more often if only for the fact that we should be throwing out twice as many shots with berserk and all our attack speed. I would love to have a +c/p/s skill so I can hold aggro in defensive.