Idea! Faction Based PvP Reward System for Tier 7 and 8 (Very Lengthy) [Archive]

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Disarray

03-14-2008, 07:45 AM

FACTION BASED PVP REWARDS FOR TIER 7 AND TIER 8 Many people have complained about the old PvP token drop reward system due to the ability of scouts to accumulate tokens faster then other classes because they can more easily solo and track down players on their own. These complaints led SoE to drastically change the PvP reward system in Ever Quest 2 with the implementation of PvP writs. Writs, while having a good intention have become more of a hassle than a pleasure to fulfill. Originally, the writs were class specific, forcing players to track down and kill specific classes, often taking up to several hours in order to find that elusive brigand or scarce conjuror. SoE after realizing the difficulty of these particular writs altered them to be archetype specific. While the new archetype modification made the completion of writs much more fluidic, they became very vulnerable to exploitation. With the multiple server crashes caused by the exceedingly excessive PvP zergfest at the Kylong Plains docks, SoE removed the writ givers, once again stalling PvP. Several days later, the 20 minute repeat cool down on writs was implemented. This current modification has put a damper on PvP continuity because of the inability to earn a reward for 20 minute bursts. Due to the massive decline in PvP quality since the introduction of PvP writs by SoE there have been many suggestions as how to ‘fix' PvP. The fundamental flaw with the current PvP reward system is the fact that we need tokens in order to do anything. So, if we think outside of the box a little bit, we can start to picture a new system without the trouble of accumulating tokens. One of my favorite suggestions from the forums was a faction based PvP reward system, much like the Deity faction spells. I've decided to put some notes together in an attempt at gaining the PvP community a much deserved improvement to the PvP on our servers. Firstly, I'm sure you're thinking "Hey, I already have maximum faction with the Lucanic Knights or the Antonican Royal Guard!" This is why I propose the division of these primary factions into six separate factions. The Lucanic Knights faction would break down into three factions, the first being "Lucanic Knights - City", this faction would determine a players ability to gain PvP rewards from town during the level spread from level 10 to level 80 much like the current PvP faction. A new faction called "Lucanic Knights - Faydwer" would be available to player's level 60 and above. And finally the new faction "Lucanic Knights - Kunark" would be available for player's level 70 and above. To balance the new Freeport factions, Qeynos would have the Antonican Royal Guard faction break down into three factions as well, the first being "Antonican Royal Guard - City", this faction would determine a players ability to gain PvP rewards from town during the level spread from level 10 to level 80 much like the current PvP faction. A new faction called "Antonican Royal Guard - Faydwer" would be available to player's level 60 and above. And finally the new faction "Antonican Royal Guard - Kunark" would be available for player's level 70 and above. Upon leveling into the minimum level requirement of these factions, the player instantly receives a new faction in their faction window. As a player levels from level 10 to 80, they are rewarded PvP faction from their basic "City" faction when the successfully engage enemy players in PvP combat. Once a player advances into the level 60 restricted faction, that player is now awarded faction with the "Faydwer" faction when they successfully engage and enemy player in PvP combat. Similarly, once a player gains access to the level 70 restricted faction they are awarded faction with "Kunark" faction when successfully engaging an enemy in PvP combat. However, when a player advances into the next tier of PvP faction, they are still able to accumulate faction in the subsequent factions while PvPing in tier 8, the value of the faction gained in the subsequent tier is diminished drastically, but gear would still be attainable. The current writ system does not allow the player base that has surpassed tier 7 access to the tier 7 PvP armor rewards. Some will wonder why you would want tier 7 PvP gear in tier 8 and the answer is pretty simple. The tier 7 PvP gear is still relatively good compared to legendary and master crafted gear from tier 8, and would come in quite handy while working towards your new tier 8 PvP gear. It simply does not make sense why the player base should be locked from tier 7 PvP armor when no other gear is locked from them. Continuing on, I'm sure you're wondering how this faction system will reward you with PvP gear. To start of, each of the new factions "City", "Faydwer", and "Kunark", will have a base faction of zero. This makes sense because as a member of your city you are already trusted amongst its citizens. As a player works their way higher and higher with said faction they will have access to more and more rewards. All PvP rewards will have their current status and coin costs removed (this is only applicable up to tier 7) and will have those prices replaced with faction costs, similar to the current Deity spell costs. If a player decides to spend their faction on a PvP item of such a ‘price', said price will be deducted from their total accumulated faction from the specific faction in which the item was purchased. Faction for these factions will be accumulated in much the same way throughout every tier, is coupled with the current ‘consider' mechanic the game already has in place for determining opponent difficulty. This system will reward the person(s) PvPing according to how much personal risk they take when engaging in a PvP encounter, which means the type of PvP a player engages in will directly effect how quickly said player accumulates faction. The following equations would determine how players would accumulate factions in PvP combat. Depending on the size of your group/raid faction rewards will be altered according to the difficulty of the encounter you are facing. All PvP considers are calculated from the highest level player in your group.EquationsSolo PvP: F=[C]/L F: Total Faction gained Group PvP: F=[C(PiDG)/PiVG]/L C: Considered factionRaid PvP: F=[C(PiDG)/(PiVGxRS)]/L PiVG: #of People in victor group PiDG: # of People in defeated group RS: Raid Size L: Leech factor The following are some example faction totals gained from PvP combat. 1 Player vs. 1 Player<ul><li>If a target cons grey to you, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded no faction for completing the encounter. </li><li>If a target cons green to you, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded 10 faction for completing the encounter.</li><li>If a target cons blue to you, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded 25 faction for completing the encounter.</li><li>If a target cons white to you, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded 50 faction for completing the encounter.</li><li>If a target cons yellow to you, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded 60 faction for completing the encounter.</li><li>If a target cons orange to you, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded 75 faction for completing the encounter.</li><li>If a target cons red to you, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded 90 faction for completing the encounter.</li></ul>1 Full Group (6) vs. 1 Player<ul><li>If a target cons grey to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded no faction per member for completing the encounter. </li><li>If a target cons green to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded 10/6 = 2 faction per member for completing the encounter.</li><li>If a target cons blue to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded 25/6 = 5 faction per member for completing the encounter.</li><li>If a target cons white to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded 50/6 = 8 faction per member for completing the encounter.</li><li>If a target cons yellow to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded 60/6 = 10 faction per member for completing the encounter.</li><li>If a target cons orange to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded 75/6 = 12 faction per member for completing the encounter.</li><li>If a target cons red to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded 90/6 = 15 faction per member for completing the encounter.</li></ul>1 Full Group (6) vs. 1 Full Group (6)<ul><li>If a target cons grey to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded no faction for completing the encounter. </li><li>If a target cons green to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded (10x6)/6 = 10 faction per member for completing the encounter.</li><li>If a target cons blue to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded (25x6)/6 = 25 faction per member for completing the encounter.</li><li>If a target cons white to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded (50x6)/6 = 50 faction per member for completing the encounter.</li><li>If a target cons yellow to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded (60x6)/6 = 60 faction per member for completing the encounter.</li><li>If a target cons orange to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded (75x6)/6 = 75 faction per member for completing the encounter.</li><li>If a target cons red to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded (90x6)/6 = 90 faction per member for completing the encounter.</li></ul>1 Full Raid (24) vs. 1 Player<ul><li>If a target cons grey to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded no faction for completing the encounter. </li><li>If a target cons green to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded no faction per member for completing the encounter.</li><li>If a target cons blue to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded no faction per member for completing the encounter.</li><li>If a target cons white to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded 50/24 = 2 faction per member for completing the encounter.</li><li>If a target cons yellow to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded 60/24 = 3 faction per member for completing the encounter.</li><li>If a target cons orange to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded 75/24 = 4 faction per member for completing the encounter.</li><li>If a target cons red to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded 90/24 = 5 faction per member for completing the encounter.</li></ul>1 Full Raid (24) vs. 1 Full Raid (24)<ul><li>If a target cons grey to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded no faction for completing the encounter. </li><li>If a target cons green to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded no faction per member for completing the encounter.</li><li>If a target cons blue to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded (25x24)/(24x4) = 7 faction per member for completing the encounter.</li><li>If a target cons white to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded (50x24)/(24x4) = 12 faction per member for completing the encounter.</li><li>If a target cons yellow to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded (60x24)/(24x4) = 15 faction per member for completing the encounter.</li><li>If a target cons orange to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded (75x24)/(24x4) = 19 faction per member for completing the encounter.</li><li>If a target cons red to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded (90x24)/(24x4) = 23 faction per member for completing the encounter.</li></ul> With the recently altered writ system which crashed Nagafen server several days Raid PvP zerging was extremely detrimental to not only the server but the general PvP atmosphere. Such encounters should not be promoted as there is very little skill demonstrated in such a massive lag spasm. This system attempts to limit the effectiveness of raid PvP, it may prove to be ineffective and could be looked at further once tested. If, lets say, you were to engage your group of 6 against another group of 6, and you manage to kill 5 of the 6, and the last one finds an escape route and gets away. You will be rewarded for killing 5 people once the encounter comes to a close. This system will also address PvP leeching. When engaging someone who is already in PvP combat, the equations I've laid out will change and have the entire equation divided by the number of separate encounters already engaged to that target. As more separate encounters engage the specified target the leech factor will increase. The first person/group to engage the encounter has an L value of 1, which will not alter the total faction gained. The second person/group will have an L value of 2, which will divide their total faction gained from the encounter in half. This would continue infinitely.

Disarray

03-14-2008, 07:46 AM

Reward CostsItem Faction Cost Even Con Kill CountJewelry 15,000 300Weapons 22,500 450Gloves 18,750 375Bracers 20,000 400Boots 22,500 450Helmet 25,000 500Shoulders 30,000 600Legs 35,000 700Chest 40,000 800 All items sold directly from Freeport or Qeynos will have a 5,000 faction value.Other PvP Changes Regarding PvP immunities, all zone traversing mounts should be coupled with a 5 to10 second immunity upon completing your flight/ride. This will allow more time for slower PC's to render enemy players, as well as put an end to sokokar post camping, since unsuspecting players will be able to get away. If you jump early from your ride you will not receive an immunity. Evac perma-immunity will be changed to a 30 second immunity so players can not AFK in open zones. Revive perma-immunity will be changed to a 5 minute immunity, this will allow players to rebuff their groups, or call back to town, but will not support open zone AFK's. Immunity on docks such as the ones in Kylong Plains will be extended to cover the entire dock platform. All graveyards will be available to all factions to even the odds, and evac locations will be the same so if that scout your chasing evacs you can evac right after and follow him. Evac will not be useable once any member of your group goes into PvP combat. With the implementation of this system, I'd intend to get rid of revive zerging with a simple feature. Players who are engaged in a group PvP encounter and die, while still having group members engaged in PvP are not prompted with a revive window. This effect stays until all members of your group have either died, achieved victory, or simply ran off the PvP encounter. However, during PvP combat, group members are able to be revived manually by classes with a revive player spell, as this is not considered zerging, and is the only way for a deceased player to re-enter the fray. I know this system is perhaps not well balanced with the number's I've given but I think it addresses some of the more serious issues with high tier PvP. Feel free to comment or add any suggestions you'd like. If enough people get behind the idea maybe SoE will take the idea and run with it. Thanks for reading.Disarray

stormBringerJim

03-14-2008, 10:39 AM

waiting is just plain silly it dicourages pvpbut even with specific classes the only thing wrong with it is that to many people didnt like it and didnt even come out the problem with pvp is the players not the method putting a timer on it or some method it inturn creates ez mode, like raiding the writ giver, is not the way to goand thois faction deal benefits solo pvp which some still will cry because they believe scouts are the only ones that can solo

Csky

03-14-2008, 12:21 PM

waiting isnt silly at all, it discourages farming which is all people were doing..farming each other isnt PVP

Faenril

03-14-2008, 12:34 PM

<cite>Csky wrote:</cite><blockquote>waiting isnt silly at all, it discourages farming which is all people were doing..farming each other isnt PVP</blockquote>No.The recent list, for instance, discourages farming each other.Waiting discourages playing.Waiting encourages me to go run an instance, or log an alt, or log out, or play another game.

max.power

03-14-2008, 12:45 PM

I like your idea Disarray.IMO the main issue with PvP writs is that it encourages raids rolling over solos/groups, giving updates to every person in the raid. If you can't build/join a raid on your own to counter the roaming x4 forces in RoK you are screwed - you have to log, log to an alt, do tradeskilling or do an instance. From my experience on Venekor all this happens already.Putting in this 20 mins timer lessens the token gain, but the problem "raid vs. everything smaller" remains, and will remain as long as writs are needed for PvP items.Going back to body dropped tokens doesn't seem to be an option too, remember the nasty "do you really want to loot?"-windows popping up? It would lessen the "raid vs. groups/solos" issue though because with bad luck you could PvP a whole day in a raid and never loot one freaking token, thus group and solo PvP would be more appealing again. But even in groups you had a hard time to accumulate tokens so the best way was to solo, which benefited mostly us scouts.I hope that SoE thinks a moment about your idea, it is already available for our god powers anyway - and makes pretty much sense! Accumulate less faction if your force is bigger than the opposing force and so it makes "even" encounters more desireable. Spend faction for items and build it up again for your next one./thumbs

Riggly

03-14-2008, 02:38 PM

Idk now that you brought up faction. Why not do a combo of both. Have the pvp items cost status for have them drain faction. If they drained faction then there would actually be a purpose in killing exiles in large numbers. Once again some one brought up that Venekor and Naggy different. Treat them as such please.

Disarray

03-14-2008, 04:00 PM

<cite>Brain@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I like your idea Disarray.IMO the main issue with PvP writs is that it encourages raids rolling over solos/groups, giving updates to every person in the raid. If you can't build/join a raid on your own to counter the roaming x4 forces in RoK you are screwed - you have to log, log to an alt, do tradeskilling or do an instance. From my experience on Venekor all this happens already.Putting in this 20 mins timer lessens the token gain, but the problem "raid vs. everything smaller" remains, and will remain as long as writs are needed for PvP items.Going back to body dropped tokens doesn't seem to be an option too, remember the nasty "do you really want to loot?"-windows popping up? It would lessen the "raid vs. groups/solos" issue though because with bad luck you could PvP a whole day in a raid and never loot one freaking token, thus group and solo PvP would be more appealing again. But even in groups you had a hard time to accumulate tokens so the best way was to solo, which benefited mostly us scouts.I hope that SoE thinks a moment about your idea, it is already available for our god powers anyway - and makes pretty much sense! Accumulate less faction if your force is bigger than the opposing force and so it makes "even" encounters more desireable. Spend faction for items and build it up again for your next one./thumbs</blockquote>Thanks, a lot for the great reply Brain, just trying to get some thought outside of the box. <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

Necodem

03-14-2008, 05:07 PM

your idea is just like tokens, solo pvp > *, so no.

Disarray

03-14-2008, 05:25 PM

No, solo pvp is not rewarded better than group pvp. Both types of PvP are rewarded equally. A solo player killing another solo player, will receive the same amount of faction as a group killing another group. A full group of players rolling a helpless solo player does not deserve full reward for killing that person. It does not take any risk or skill to participate in a 6 on 1, no player in a full group deserves full credit for killing 1/6th of a person.

Nighteyez

03-14-2008, 10:53 PM

I really like this idea. Token drops were alright, but you could go all night in pvp not getting any tokens.The writ system just screamed for raids...which happened quite often.This faction-based idea seems really good, if the right numbers were put behind it.The PvP changes that you included are really good too, especially the sokokar immunity.A lot of thought was put into this, I hope something comes of it. Nice, Dis.

Naraku

03-15-2008, 12:12 AM

<cite>Darkhain@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>your idea is just like tokens, solo pvp > *, so no.</blockquote>L2R (read)...His model perfectly discourages group on solo play... Instead it is now Group on Group or Solo on Solo, the current writ system encourages Group play on Solo to Not so Full Groups... Nine times out of Ten you will see a group evac if the odds are too even... They prefer a easy win since they can hug their silly titles and gain the rewards and steam rolling over some solo player...The writ system encourages more disadvantage but I could have lived with that originally... The reset timer, makes an already rediculous system even more silly...Dis your idea has a major amount of thought behind it and it looks really good on paper.... But you won't see SOE taking a look at it, because it's more then one sentence long, and encourages a brain... Something SOE doesn't have the ability to get to or beyond...

Nire

03-15-2008, 01:14 AM

I completely agree with you Dis. His train of thought would actually put to rest a lot of problems with the current pvp system that is in the game right now. I think its at least worth a shot trying it this way.

Ryman

03-15-2008, 01:53 PM

I support this idea, let's hope the devs hear about it.

Disarray

03-15-2008, 03:39 PM

Nice to see so many people supporting the idea so far, thanks for all the positive feedback guys.

Necodem

03-15-2008, 04:44 PM

<cite>Naraku wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Darkhain@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>your idea is just like tokens, solo pvp > *, so no.</blockquote>L2R (read)...</blockquote>If a target cons white to your group, and you defeat them in PvP combat, you will be rewarded (50x6)/6 = 50 faction per member for completing the encounter.So on a 6 vs 6, you each member of the grp gain 50 faction for killing the encounter ( = the whole grp ) and solo kill is 50 faction... perhaps you meant 50 faction per target killed?But now as the solo is gaining 50 faction per kill, that just mean that leeching grp vs grp fight will give you a lot by just doing 1 dmg and waiting that the grp dies.

Disarray

03-15-2008, 05:05 PM

<cite>Darkhain@Venekor wrote:</cite> <blockquote>So on a 6 vs 6, you each member of the grp gain 50 faction for killing the encounter ( = the whole grp ) and solo kill is 50 faction... perhaps you meant 50 faction per target killed?But now as the solo is gaining 50 faction per kill, that just mean that leeching grp vs grp fight will give you a lot by just doing 1 dmg and waiting that the grp dies.</blockquote>No, when engaging a completely even encounter and winning you receive 50 faction. In a 6 vs 6, essentially everyone in your group has only killed one person, therefor you are only rewarded for killing one person each. If you decide to kill solo players with a full group your group needs to evenly distribute the reward from doing so. Receiving full credit in a group of 6 for killing one person doesn't make sense, no matter how much you want it to. The name of the game is 'Player vs. Player' not 'Group vs. Player'. And I realise the leeching system I wrote up there would need some work, I noted that the numbers would need testing and were not perfect as they currently stand, but what the leeching system does address is players getting full credit for engaging people who are already in PvP combat, essentially taking fairness out of the game.This system makes FAIR encounters more desirable, but if you choose to run around in a group killing solo players you can, it will just take you longer to attain your rewards.

Alotta

03-16-2008, 12:22 AM

I love the idea dis. I had a simalar idea, but didn't put that much thought into it. Very well laid out. I believe that would solve a lot of the raid v 1 issues and group v 1 issues. It would encourage more 1 v 1 and group v group and so on. The way pvp should be. All in all Dis, GREAT idea!~Alotta

Necodem

03-16-2008, 09:42 AM

It's a solo system as you gain the same amount for killing 6 people with a grp and 1 people by soloing...

Disarray

03-16-2008, 02:05 PM

<cite>Darkhain@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>It's a solo system as you gain the same amount for killing 6 people with a grp and 1 people by soloing...</blockquote>You are wrong, again, it is as balanced between the two as you are going to get. Once again, if you CHOOSE to PvP in a group of 6, killing single targets that can not defend themselves against your gang style play, then you DO NOT deserve to have full credit for brutalizing your target. If your group actively persues even 6 on 6 encounters, you will find that you will attain your rewards just as fast as a solo player. You might even be able to accumulate reward faster then a solo player because solo players have to choose not to fight targets that are exceedingly larger then themselves, whereas groups will fight any target they come across.And once more let me remind you that the name of this game is 'Player vs. Player' not 'Group vs. Player' and I'd like to keep it that way.

Sydnee

03-18-2008, 05:04 PM

Lengthy as it may be as you stated lol, I also support this idea Dis, probably one of the best I've seen by far. Nice job, hope someones listening

KannaWhoopass

03-18-2008, 06:27 PM

In theory you system would work .. However in practice it leads to scouts are number one. as in hello im a scout , and dominate 1v1 as well as hey im a scout and am needed in most PvP groups .. There is no downside to this and all is dandy.. However if im a defiler conjuror necro .. whatever classes who do not excell in 1 v 1 , how in this system am i to compete. My only chance is to form groups and my only chance to stay competitive is to get full reward for killing those solo scouts evacing across the landscape. This is not a first person shooter , all classes are not equal , all classes do not have equal opportunity !The flaw in PvP rewards is it rewards death .. and not all classes excell in acomplishing that .. If you could reward exceptional healing or taunting or group control that would be great ..The only balance is to have a death be worth a death ..... If 1 guy murders a person in Texas , or 10 People murder a guy in Texas ... 1 person or 10 people are going to the electric chair... Just becasue 10 people kileld someone they dont just make em put their tongue on a battery instead. the 1 death = 1 reward evens out the imbalance of the classes .. the writ system with a 20 min wait means players are not rewarded for farming eachother. Most people who complain are scouts who have been reaping the rewards of a previously imbalanced system .. and are now being rewarded at a level more common to the rest of the player base. The problem with PvP is the people .. plain and simple.. PvP was great when it was new because of the things it added ... like being able to kill that guy who was camping the named update you needed.. or fighting things that didnt behave exactly the same way each time.. The boards are full of pathetic posts now about .. ohh i guess ill just wait 20 min in imunity now.. That would never have happened , when PvP was new.. the fun was the PvP not the faction fame tokens .. whatever.. it was its own reward. If you cant PvP without a token for doing it.. you are the problem .. not the reward system .. If the serevrs had people who wanted to PvP .. and not accumulate tokens .. the tokens would flow like water.. But you guys are not playing PvP you are playing .. token grab .. which is a different game ..

Disarray

03-18-2008, 07:04 PM

<cite>Jitter@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>The only balance is to have a death be worth a death ..... If 1 guy murders a person in Texas , or 10 People murder a guy in Texas ... 1 person or 10 people are going to the electric chair... Just becasue 10 people kileld someone they dont just make em put their tongue on a battery instead. </blockquote>I think your analogy works for my arguement. If one person kills someone, in your analogy, he is "awarded" the death penalty, similarly if 10 people gang up and kill one person they SHARE the death penalty. The same should be true about PvP rewards, killing one person in a group of six requires no risk and no skill. The reward for killing one person with a group needs to be destributed evenly amongst your group, no one deserves full credit for that kill.If you play a class that does not solo as well, like a necro, conj, defiler, there is nothing stopping you from going out in a duo, or in a full group, as I'm sure there will be people who would still run around in groups of six.Scouts will always be number one in PvP because of the resources they have at their disposal, nothing will ever change that in EQ2. I, as a scout gain more tokens solo PvPing with writs than I did when there was token drops, even with the 20 minute cooldown. <blockquote>Most people who complain are scouts who have been reaping the rewards of a previously imbalanced system .. and are now being rewarded at a level more common to the rest of the player base. That would never have happened , when PvP was new.. the fun was the PvP not the faction fame tokens .. whatever.. it was its own reward. If you cant PvP without a token for doing it.. you are the problem .. not the reward system .. </blockquote>This is simply not true, scroll back through this thread and you'll see that only 2 scouts have posted in this thread. This system is a complete balance for all classes and PvP styles. Also, in a game thats is heavily reward oriented, no one is going to do anything without a reward for doing so, especially on a PvP server where the mentality is very self oriented. Everyone wants to make their character better, and for people who don't have several hours a day to raid, need to be able to attain rewards through PvP.The simple fact of the matter is that this system will promote fair encounters that correlate directly to the amount of risk a player has to take in engaging a target, and raise the overall quality of PvP.

KannaWhoopass

03-19-2008, 12:55 AM

OK in one zone there are 10 people of opposing faction to kill .. now if they are 4 solo players .... a duo .. and a grp of 4 ... you as a scout kill the 4 solo players .. = 200 points for you I in a grp kill all of the players in zone 500 available points killing 4 solos = 33 points killing the duo = 16 pointsgrp of 4 = 33 points 84 ish points for me for killing the whole zone.. less than 1/2 of what you got for killing 40% of zone .... are ya with me ... favors scouts ...

Disarray

03-19-2008, 01:20 AM

<cite>Jitter@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>OK in one zone there are 10 people of opposing faction to kill .. now if they are 4 solo players .... a duo .. and a grp of 4 ... you as a scout kill the 4 solo players .. = 200 points for you I in a grp kill all of the players in zone 500 available points / 6 players = 84 ish points for me for killing the whole zone.. less than 1/2 of what you got for killing 40% of zone .... are ya with me ... favors scouts ... </blockquote>Ok, I'll use your example, 10 people in a zone.4 solo players, all level 80A duo, both level 80and a Group of 4, all level 80First, I will engage each of the solo players in order, I may not win every encounter as they are the same level as me and are likely scouts since they are playing solo. In the best situation, I kill all 4 and gain myself 200 faction. I run along and encounter a duo, lets say a warlock and a warden, I go in to attack them and the warlock sees me, casts a couple spells while his warden heals him for more dps than I can throw out in 10 seconds in PvP, so I have to retreat and go find someone else to kill. I leave the encounter with no faction. I then am flying into a sokokar post, and get demolished by a group of 4 Generals, I get no faction. Considering, I get 200 faction, under the BEST of circumstances, I'd say that wasn't too much.Now, your group of six runs around the zone shortly after I left. Your group ganks all the solo's effortlessly one by one, rendering 200 faction divided by 6, 33 each, no more then a full group deserves for ganking helpless solo's. You move on and find the duo and slaughter them, you gain another 100 faction divided by 6, 17 each, congrats you won a 6 on 2. You end up flying to the same sokokar station and your group rolls the group of generals 6 on 4, rendering 200 faction for your group, 33 each. So in total you've gained 83 faction.The solo player has earned more faction for engaging in more risky, and fair encounters. When a level 80, fights another level 80, he essentially has a 50% chance to win the fight, not great odds if you ask me. When a group of level 80's fight a single level 80, that single target has about a 3% chance of killing the whole group.Now lets say, instead of running your group into 4 solo players, you find 4 even level group encounters and kill them all. You're group has now taken as much risk as the solo player, as you have a 50% chance of winning a 6 v 6 fight against even conned targets. Each of the people in your group accumulate 200 faction for taking the risk. Continuing on, lets say that the 4 solo players I came across were level 72's questing, which I assure you happens quite frequently. I kill them all and receive 40 faction total because I was killing people who were helpless to my superior level, gear, and spells. Now with the new player levels, the solo player has gained 40 faction instead of 200, and your group has accumulated 57 faction each instead of 83 because you can engage the duo and the group of 4, something which the solo is unable to do. So now that the group of players has gained more faction then the solo player, are you with me?This system is extremely well balanced for risk vs. reward, for both solo players and group players alike.

KannaWhoopass

03-19-2008, 02:10 AM

im sure it does appeal to you .. but 1 v1 encounters favor scouts period.. so any system which rewards a 1 v1 encounter is flawed .. you math can be simplified to be a constant based on how many people there are in your group .. to a per kill amount .. of (1/peeps in your grp) * points for a kill .. so 50 points for a kill 6 man grp = 8.3 points per kill 5 = 10 points per kill 4 man grp = 12.5 points per kill 3 man grp = 16 points per kill 2 man grp = 25 points per kill 1 man grp = 50 points per kill the number of people in the opposing grp doesnt matter .. you dont have a skill multiplier in the formula .. its linear .. and it favors scouts .. Im not trying to be a jerk .. im just pointing out .. you want a system where you can run solo and kill alot and be rewarded for it .. I favor a system where if you run solo you are a target .. and will get your face ripped off. becasue a whole raid will come by and own you ... that is for rewards ... for title .. i can see your idea perhaps ... but for a reward ... nope

Disarray

03-19-2008, 02:17 AM

<cite>Jitter@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I favor a system where if you run solo you are a target .. and will get your face ripped off. becasue a whole raid will come by and own you ... </blockquote>Just wow.This system doesn't just appeal to scouts go look at the classes that have posted positively in response to this article.Just because you are so narrow minded that you can't see the obvious flaws of the writ system, and raid vs. single target PvP doesn't mean my system is wrong. If you really feel like killing 1 person with 24 people, feel free, but you sure as hell don't deserve full credit for killing that person.Plus, you are exiled, the reward system as nothing to do with you, so thanks for comming out.

Disarray

03-19-2008, 02:22 AM

<cite>Jitter@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>so any system which rewards a 1 v1 encounter is flawed .. </blockquote>and in regards to this, you do know that the name of the game you are playing is PLAYER vs. PLAYER right?

KannaWhoopass

03-19-2008, 02:26 AM

Yes im exiled which means i have no stake in the system and can look at it in a fair un-biased way. Which gives my opinion weight because i have nothing to gain or loose. I just look at it from the game value standpoint.Im not narrow minded .. you took a stab at a system .. good you made a suggestion which is more than most do .. But yes most of those who complain are scouts . Ill bet that there are more tokens being generated in the game now per population than there was before the writs .. The difrference is now they are spread among all classes .. where as before .. it was scouts earning 70% of all tokens created.. You can throw numbers at it . and do calculations of .. 5 per writ .. 2.4 writs per hour .. 14 tokens per hour .. bleh bleh ... or just go and PvP .. pick up writs when you can .. becasue as a defiler .. i would PvP for 3 hours and if i got 10 tokens it was a good day ... now i could do 2 writs in a night no problem ... read the forums with care and see who is complaining ... not many defilers conj/necro mystic etc classes are trying to "Fix" PvP .. And mostly scouts have their nickers in a twist .. becasue the world is full of larger groups .. and raids.. which is as it should be... it ist a first person shooterAnd in regard to the Player vs Player ... you seriously believe that the intent of this game .. is to promote 1 v 1 fights .. pull up your pants man .. your scout is showing

Disarray

03-19-2008, 02:40 AM

You are not seeing it unbiased. You are seeing it from the point of view of someone who groups constantly. I PvP with both my brigand and my warlock, in both solo and group PvP. I know the system, I read the forums, and I know how the current system is flawed.I can gain over 60 tokens a day, solo PvPing on my brigand, which is more then I could gather soloing with the token drops. This system promotes QUALITY PvP. Not ganking and zerging, but FAIR and EVEN encounters that offer a challenge. Destroying solo greens with a group of 6 is not FUN, and if you think it is there is something seriously wrong with you.And you can not say there should be no solo PvP, because believe it or not, this game is EXTREMELY solo oriented. You can level from 1 to 80 without ever grouping, and still wind up in Tier 8 with a bunch of awesome gear because a lot of it comes from quests and solo named mobs.So, while you want your raid vs. one easymode pvp, I'll continue to seek quality PvP in hopes that a system similar to this one is implemented.Have fun ganking solo's with your raid.

Naraku

03-19-2008, 03:15 AM

<cite>Jitter@Nagafen wrote:</cite> <blockquote>read the forums with care and see who is complaining ... not many defilers conj/necro mystic etc classes are trying to "Fix" PvP .. </blockquote>Ho ho ho... Great argument you have there buddy.... There is a reason why those classes don't complain on the forums, because it's people like you (who A. Are taking advantage of a flaw in our good vs. evil PvP system by going Exiled. B. Your right you don't get tokens, even more of a reason for Exiles like yourself to constantly greif soloing Necromancers Like myself!!! C. You attack any post that a Necromancer, Defiler, Conjuror, etc make trying to get some Dev's attention to the flaws and major disadvantages of our classes in PvP and tell us to go Learn Our Class (Why don't you learn about the game, it's good vs. evil not Overly Advantageous Unfair and Class Unbalanced Exiles vs. Less Class available Qeynosian / Freeport players *cough* you all the classes for raids and PvP which promotes a unfair balance that is as blatant as the current writ system *cough*)Being a Necromancer I have long grown tired of making my feelings and opinion known on what it's like to be on the BOTTOM of the PvP food chain... What I can say is this, I have never been ganked, greifed, steam rolled, plowed, and royally jerked BY GROUPS AND RAIDS as much before, as I have been now, since the PvP writs have been implemented.... If you want zerging go play StarCraft, if you want justice don't receive it through the names of classes like the one's you have mentioned... It doesn't justify your point, it just proves that we are not just run into the ground in PvP, but it also proves the total lack of respect that other players in PvP (like yourself) have for classes that they see as "easy" targets... I like Dis's idea, second to that, I like the idea of a Battlegrounds like zone, where the TWO factions can battle it out in a organized raid on raid style PvP... And yes, I did say TWO, no Exiles please, your not even a real faction anyways!!!!

KannaWhoopass

03-19-2008, 04:13 AM

Wow just well wow1 im a warden in Exile.. 2 Im a Defiler in freeport3 Im a ranger in QeynosI dont PvP in Raids, I spend so much time Raiding during the week that i dont PvP as much as i used to , mostly i do on my Ranger now. And lastly , what are ya talking about?The reason they dont complain , is becasue they are getting tokens at the same or better rate!and if you are trying to solo a necro then .. well god bless ya becasue you are going to get killed alot! and there isnt a thing you can do about it .. a solo , duo grp or raid then end will be the same .. The best PvP setups are formed in Qeynos with the illusionist templar troub combos .. and have noting to do with Exile... And Exiles dont PvP often so im not sure i know where that comes from .. 80% of Exiles dont PvP at all !! In a game which allows .. and encourages grouping .. im not sure why you would expect that runnig solo thru zones should be easy and rewarding.. did you by chance watch too many Rambo movies ...... Do you envision yourself poping out of a river guns blazing and killing 1/2 an army before breakfast ? Is the game borked .. sure it is ... if you ask me most of the problems come from making the game too solo friendly .. masssive overland zones of solo only content encourages solo playing which in turn favors scout PvP because a solo target questing is 0 challenge with tracking wait till they engage a mob walk in killem .. rinse repeat.. .. If the game had many solo instances .. and hard overland zones .. they perhaps you would find more groups roaming about .. and have a group vs group PvP which is the most balanced fight you are going to find .. fairness is not a 1 v 1 it is a 6 v 6 or 12 v 12 .. with an even distribution of classes that is as close as yo are going to get to fair! The imbalances of individual classes start to cancel out with group buffs .. and yet the stacking of class strengths are not over powered as they can be in a x4 on x4 .. reality of the game is .. you can form groups ... you can form raids.. and some classes are dependant on grouping for PvP success .. so in order to give those classes the same chance to kill as otheres they need to get credit for a group kill.. be it a single green or 12 orange .. they get credit for kills .. Find a group .. and go out and PvP .. its that simple.. or go out solo with a pet that says onevone and hang out at the revive points ... but being solo in the game , has the same result as being solo in any battle ... your odds are not good.. and they shouldnt be...

Nighteyez

03-19-2008, 04:52 AM

80% of Exiles don't PvP. Hahaha... That was a good one.Well, I'll give you that. They just run around in raids just for the hell of it rolling over any solos or groups running around.As for what you're saying with the grouping, the system Dis put up DOESN'T STOP IT, you are MORE THAN WELCOME to run around in groups, but as he keeps reiterating, you should NOT get full credit for a SINGLE kill if it's a 6v1 fight. Nowhere does it say (which you're implying) that if you're in a group and your teammate kills someone, that you don't get credit. You get 1/6th of the credit, which is VERY fair. You do your job in the group, be it DPS, tanking, or healing, and the rewards are you and your group get the split faction you deserve. If you DO happen to fight another full group, you'll get what you deserve.Groups running around killing solo PvP have no problem whatsoever killing that lonesome person, no matter the class. So the whole group shouldn't be getting the full credit for that kill.This system encourages fair PvP versus the now 6v1 PvP that's mostly happening. I'm a warden (recently a Fury) and I know it's hard to solo. Near impossible with the new writ system, so I have to run around in groups for PvP. Even though I refuse to go out without a group (what with all the gank squads about), I see what this system is wanting to bring to EQ2. Fun, fair, PvP fights that either end up with a close win or a lose, be it 1v1 or 6v6. Either way, a GOOD PvP fight is one where it's very close who the winner and the loser is. Do you ever stop and say, "Wow, that was awesome!" after your whole group kills that little solo fending for himself? No, I don't think so. You only get that feeling after killing that other group of 6 and almost dying.If you don't see what this system is striving for, even after all of the logic behind the reasons, then I'm not sure you'll ever get it.

Disarray

03-19-2008, 04:55 AM

I love it when people actually show intelligence on the forums, thanks nighteyez. I'm pretty sure killing solo's in a full group is EASIER than solo pvp with a scout.

Sightless

03-19-2008, 05:39 AM

A good idea, but I agree with some that a group on group fight of equal numbers should reward better.If you have a 6 on 6 you should be rewarded 1.5x the reward because 6 on 6 fights are much, much tougher than any 1 on 1 fight. In your system, my Warlock and Ranger would seriously earn much, much more faction than any Mystic, Defiler, Necromancer, et cetera. Just tonight on my Warlock I took out (solo) 2 players (Defiler+Wizard), 1 Defiler, fought a 3 on 1 and killed their green con Warlock, killed 1 Brigand, and jumped a group of three engaged with a mob and killed all three of them.The only risk I suffered really was the 3 on 1 fight. And I can duplicate these results with my Ranger. I've wiped an entire raid of x4 while they were engaged with the raid mob while solo. That would have rewarded me 1200 faction under your system, while another x4 raid wiping them would have really gained them nothing.So you have to find a way to reward every aspect of the game, equally or realistically, no matter if it's solo, group, and raid fights.

Sightless

03-19-2008, 05:44 AM

The game currently has a faction bases system which also rewards status. And status is split between group members based on what they kill. If a group kills a solo, they split the faction between the group. It's really a fair system with how they do status with PvP. All they have to do is change all PvP gear so that it costs status to purchase, BUT MAKE SURE PVP STATUS EARNED REMAINS SEPERATE FROM CRAFTING AND QUESTING STATUS!Even if they allowed for all status to count, they can just increase the cost of PvP gear to compensate. I would like for them to keep the PvP writs though so that smaller guilds have something extra to level off of.

KatrinaDeath

03-19-2008, 05:53 AM

<cite>Jitter@Nagafen wrote:</cite> <blockquote>read the forums with care and see who is complaining ... not many defilers conj/necro mystic etc classes are trying to "Fix" PvP .. </blockquote>You gotta find your place in the world... My necro (Katy) is still 5th worldwide for PvP kills by Necro. I got 95% of those kills in 6vs6 fights. Swisha is 7th for Mystics... I'd say 70% solo. Not each class is designed for solo play and likewise some classes are not to good in groups. Also there are a few classes that should stick to farming named and nodes. This is the handy PvE design we are based on.Now, there is no way to make a system that is fair to each class, each spec for each class, and every single playstyle. As a Mystic (When I was cityside) I loved body dropped tokens. As a Necro I hated it.Is there some middle ground? Yes, I think so. And I actually think the OP is on a good track to finding it but SOE likes the writ idea for some reason as their next fix is a 10 minute timer starting when you pick up the quest. Basically, 30 Tokens per hour at max effort.

Legion2024

03-19-2008, 12:09 PM

<cite>Jitter@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>The problem with PvP is the people .. plain and simple.. PvP was great when it was new because of the things it added ... like being able to kill that guy who was camping the named update you needed.. or fighting things that didnt behave exactly the same way each time.. The boards are full of pathetic posts now about .. ohh i guess ill just wait 20 min in imunity now.. That would never have happened , when PvP was new.. the fun was the PvP not the faction fame tokens .. whatever.. it was its own reward. If you cant PvP without a token for doing it.. you are the problem .. not the reward system .. If the serevrs had people who wanted to PvP .. and not accumulate tokens .. the tokens would flow like water.. But you guys are not playing PvP you are playing .. token grab .. which is a different game ..</blockquote>Yep that said it all.....and ontop of that all that will change is token farming to fraction farming will i be able to farm my fraction at the same rate at token drops? Faster if its set up x2 x4s.....? Lots of solo questers to gank with my duo/trio will the less fraction for killing a solo quester realy matter there seems to be heaps of themWAIT at 80 theres no more reds to gank no more high points Ps make exile on a god fraction scale that every time they zone in to haven they lose fraction untill they are a true exile with no home and nothing and or have to rejoin a fraction

LaoSh

03-19-2008, 12:25 PM

Well without having to rework the entire system here is the idea I came up with for making writs work properly. I think it would be the best system for pvp tokens. Please read and leave feedback.<a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?topic_id=411687" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...topic_id=411687</a>

Disarray

03-19-2008, 02:43 PM

Numbers one and two of your thread are already being implemented. Please don't derail this thread more then it has been already.

Legion2024

03-19-2008, 08:05 PM

there is no derailing here all that i see is a scout friendly pvp system. its the people that play the game that make the pvp not the writs and if you need a writ to murder somone i think the fun left the game for you along time ago.as of me i get a writ when i go past a npc. but then again i dont sit around hot areas to gank solo players i play the game as intended and only kill what we come accross and some times we go hunt looking for that group thats questing deep in a zone. For me and a lot of other people siting in a hot area and waiting for paint to dry is not a style of gaming. but then again its your coin.at the end of the day its the same system, people will still farm people for tokens/fraction groups will roll solos and raids will still roam the only problem is that now YOU think you needa token and or fraction to go murder someone. i sure as hell dont but then again the game is still fun for me. if it was to you i think you would not be making a post on this.theres most stuff to fix then this like the no agro thing, pet class pets need fixing, healers cures need looking at, and lot lots more.

Naraku

03-20-2008, 02:45 AM

<blockquote> i sure as hell dont but then again the game is still fun for me. if it was to you i think you would not be making a post on this.</blockquote>Yea because all that detail he went into with an idea has nothing to do with intelligent design... Jeez it's people like you that make effort worthless... I'm glad it's still fun for you, want a cookie? Or better yet, want 5,000 cookies (one for each player that isn't having the same fun you are)... Well at least one good thing came out of this, I think you just dinged lvl 80 for ignorance....

Nighteyez

03-20-2008, 03:58 AM

<cite>Legion2024 wrote:</cite><blockquote>there is no derailing here all that i see is a scout friendly pvp system. its the people that play the game that make the pvp not the writs and if you need a writ to murder somone i think the fun left the game for you along time ago.as of me i get a writ when i go past a npc. but then again i dont sit around hot areas to gank solo players i play the game as intended and only kill what we come accross and some times we go hunt looking for that group thats questing deep in a zone. For me and a lot of other people siting in a hot area and waiting for paint to dry is not a style of gaming. but then again its your coin.at the end of the day its the same system, people will still farm people for tokens/fraction groups will roll solos and raids will still roam the only problem is that now YOU think you needa token and or fraction to go murder someone. i sure as hell dont but then again the game is still fun for me. if it was to you i think you would not be making a post on this.theres most stuff to fix then this like the no agro thing, pet class pets need fixing, healers cures need looking at, and lot lots more. </blockquote>Actually, you were pretty much derailing the thread saying, "This system sucks, come look at my better more awesomer idea!"Yes, it's very true that it's the people that make the pvp. With the current system, people get to run around in raids and groups killing solos and still getting their updates for their tokens. It encourages people to not solo, when being able to run solo is a BIG part of this game due to the fact that a large portion of the players in this game don't always have time to sit and look for groups and whatnot.Before, when PvP was token body drops, it was heavily scout-oriented and even if you ran in a group, you could go all night without a single token.When SOE implemented the "reward" system (ie. PvP Armor), people who loved to PvP now had a real reason to PvP. Before it was just a gank-fest, where the pleasure of killing the other person stopped at just that...woo, you killed them. Almost everyone in this game has the mentality of wanting to better their character. If your character has better gear than other said person, you feel as if you've accomplished more than them. This goes for almost everyone who plays, whether they enjoy grouping instances for better gear, raiding the hardest raid zones for better gear, and even PvP for better gear.People enjoy the game in their own ways, as you have stated you enjoy just casually running around doing whatever. But in the end, it's about the rewards. Running around in all fabled gear looted from high tier raid zones is quite an accomplishment. And running around in a full set of PvP armor is quite an accomplishment.But back to the topic, the current system allows people to get their PvP armor at a disgustingly fast rate, which takes out the "accomplishment" feeling. This system is just trying to even it out, where more solos can run about and not worry about raids as much as before. Though it's still possible, since it's the people that make the PvP, people won't really feel the need to raid PvP as much anymore because you don't get rewarded as well as you once were. This system is going for fair fights to bring back the accomplishment in getting your coveted PvP armor.As I said for the last guy, if you can't see the logic behind all this, then I'm not sure you ever will.