Pirate Jones encounter is out of balance

[Emirikol]

<p><b>Please keep this thread reasoned and constructive.  I honestly believe we need a developer to look hard at this encounter so if you have something constructive to add, please do.  Please pick fights and muck rake elsewhere or start your own "Only n00bs can't beat Jones" thread.  Please respect the original purpose of this thread.  Thank you in advance.</b> </p><p>First off:  If you haven't beaten this encounter since the last live update, please consider that it has been changed and I am discussing how the encounter is as of LU 43.  We beat every piece of heroic content we have come across including all T8 instances with no trouble.  I am going to try to avoid any cute or emotional commentary on this.  </p><p>Background:  3 days of attempts using every permutation of Shadowknight, Swashbucker, Dirge, Templar, Defiler, Warden, Mystic, Illusionist and Wizard we could come up with including AA rebuilds etc.  Our guild is only level 43 so the anti-stifle potions were not an option.   Every attack, taunt, etc was modified to have a /target The Pirate Jones before it.  Every mez was modified to have a /target Rrarwrk before it.</p><p>Pirate Jones' AE goes off approximately every 6 seconds.  It appears to ignore traumatic swipe.  His fear goes through the shadowknights immunity.  The attack hits 360 and has a range of at least 25 meters so max range casting is useless.  His first AE goes off at about 1:13 seconds after clicking on the first dialogue box after clicking on the Captain Scree.  He is stun immune.  Knockdown doesn't seem to help (he threw the AE 1 second after being knocked down with a 2 second knock down.)  Stifle appears to land but the AE is still thrown while stifled.</p><p>The AE has stifle, power drain (not a big deal in a fight that CAN'T take over 60 seconds without a wipe), knock-back, a heavy DOT and we think this is also where the fear comes from (however the fear may be a seperate attack... not clear on that part yet.)</p><p>Rrarwrk taunts even when it isn't logged.  Even with every attack prefaced with a targeting command, he is still getting hit and the mez broken.  He seems to be a 2 second delay attack with double attack likely for approximately3-4k points.  The bird is part of the main mobs' group so encounter spells will hit him as well.</p><p>So, if we get lucky enough to be able to handle those.  We get treated to Captain Jones' exceptional melee skills.  25 swings = 25 hits He has about a 2 second delay and a very high double attack chance.  He hits for 2.4-4k per hit.</p><p>This is not counting the pirate adds who also can do some tremendous damage.  The only bone is the Pirate Jones can be mez'd.</p><p>Comments:  Based on the difficulty of acquisition of other professions epics, it would appear that they are intended to be obtainable by non-raiders with competent high level characters in at least group-instance gear.  This encounter does not seem possible unless you have one or more of the following:</p><p>1.) Some of the anti-AOE skills (multiple required).  The Warden's is useless at 3M range with the fear and knockback components of the monster on the MT.2.) Anti-stifle potions (require a guild level of 50 which could hardly be considered available to everyone.)3.) A specific set of character classes available.  In fact, I suspect there may only be one or two possible class combinations that can complete this.  </p><p>This places the difficulty into that of the raiders and not the group player (even the hardcore ones.)  </p><p>I have never thought this or said this before about anything, but this encounter needs a nerf.  I'd suggest considering the following possibilities (although multiple would be required to even be close to fair):</p><p>1.) Remove the fear component.2.) Remove the stun/stifle immunities 3.) Slow the AoE down. Make it honor traumatic swipe and stifle/knockdown.4.) Nerf the bird's damage.  It is redundant.  He is taunting us off the pirate already and the pirate is quite lethal enough completely on his own.  The bird should also be a flyer and come from above so he doesn't get stuck in the floor and kill everyone while not being attackable.5.) Slow main mob's auto attack / reduce damage.6.) Make the AoE point blank or frontal only so there is some tactic that could work.7.) Remove the adds or allow them to be pulled seperately.8.) Make encounter at least x2 so enough people could be brought in to beat it.</p>

[Meinen]

<p>A lot of people have already pointed out the same things you have.  why another thread?  Epics are supposed to be hard.  I don't know how many times i have stated this, but swashes have only 7 quests and we got out chicken sticker.  All the quests are easy, the only hard part of our epic is the final battle.  3 days is what it took me to get my epic.  2 days (this is while doing regular instances to break up the boredom of the quests) to get to the final fight.  When I got to this fight the 1st time was about 15 tries before callin it a night....next day...2 tries and only one wipe.  By no means am i a hardcore raider, most of my gear was legendary except for my weapons.  I wasn't grouped with hardcore raiders either.  Theres no question that this fight is tough, but it isn't impossible.</p><p>I would suggest going to the class forums on eq2flames.com and looking at all the other epic quest lines.  Some are easier and some are much harder.  Swashes got off easy on their epics.  </p><p>A lot of your suggestions would drop this to a standard cut and paste named fight...i would be really surprised and disappointed with the devs if they made this fight easier.</p><p>I will not post another suggestion since so many threads already have a lot of great strats and group make up ideas...i suggest reading them.   </p>

[Latpow]

I agree with the OP... this encounter is broken for many reasons.  No "group" encounter should require "raid status items", and it's flat out not working right.  It cuts you absolutely no slack and it does not follow game mechanics.  Fear on tanks with "No Fear AA"... the bird popping randomly and not being able to be mezzed or targetted half the time... AoEs that pretty much wipe your group if it hits EVERY 20 or so seconds.  I'm all for difficult encounters, but this one is just stupid and frustrating.   YES it can be done with luck and the absolutely right group set-up (they better be raid geared for a "group" heroic)... but compared to every other group fight in this game it is way out of line. 

[Banditman]

As an Illusionist, I've helped a couple Swashies through this encounter, and I can tell you that it is GROSSLY out of balance with most of the other epic quest end fights.  The only one I've seen close to this is the Berserker epic.  It's very hard, but do-able.  Mostly though, the difference is that the Berserker fight is totally within the control of the players to achieve the proper performance to complete.The Swashy encounter is just crazy randomness.  The same group might try 10 times and fail 10 times, then come back and cake walk it through on the 11th.

[g0thiC_iCe_cReaM]

<p>I have tanked just about every "boss" for epics (aside from epics that are for tanks). Pirate Jones is by <b><u>FAR</u></b> the hardest one out of all the class epics. This encounter really does need a tweak, because as it stands right now, to win you basically have to have dumb luck. Seriously, if you end up getting the wrong combinations of fear/ae/kb etc you're not going to win no matter what the strat on this mob. Almost nothing works on him either. You can't mez him, you can't slow his abilities down with the rogue AAs. Half the time AE blockers don't work because you're feared before he AEs. There's almost no time to recover between AEs. The tank gets taunted off the mobs by the stupid bird. The adds will resist mez a lot of the time. The mezzer ends up not being able to cast mez at all due to fear/stun/stifle. Freedom of Mind does not work. Fear immunity does not work. You might as well just stand there and throw stones at him and hope he cries and gives up. There are no tanks in my guild that are willing to even attempt him anymore, just me.</p><p>The only setup that I have sucessfully done this mob with is Dirge, Defiler, Swash (duh), Illusionist, me (pally) and Warden. The AE blocker from the Dirge and Swash, and the AE blocking abilities of the Defiler dog helped. We still wiped 6 times before we got the "dumb luck" of not getting the wrong combo of stuff thrown at us. Prior to this 6 run attempt, I had tanked it a good 12 or more wipes before that, and we even swapped out me for a SK because the SK was slightly better equipped and has death march and bloodletter. Another 5 wipes later with him still made absolutely no difference. Encounters should not rely on luck on what order/combination of stuff from a mob.</p><p>To fix this encounter, it should be a ring event with however many pirate helpers coming in waves, then once all the waves are completed you have to fight Jones one on one (well group on Jones, you can leave the bird in it if you want). That's it. IMO there is no reason the final mob for Swashies should be so much harder than any other epic questline.</p>

[Trojenn]

<p>Well just for a lil info incase some don't know.. I am listing a few of the final Epic kills for other classes and what it took..</p><p>Defiler- Hardest thing was the graphics of zone..(yuck sickning) Dirge Me Guard Defiler.. 4grp</p><p>Assasin- Just HP of the mob.. Dirge Templar Swash Assasin Guard Ranger..6grp</p><p>Ranger-Uhg.. can we say Chardok... Dirge Ranger Ranger Palliden Warden Swash..6grp</p><p>Berserker- Good Mezzer...Zerker Assasin Swash Illusionist Templar...5grp</p><p>Pallidens- Uhm easiest one ever.. Palli Swash...2grp</p><p>Conji- Need I say more</p><p>Dirge- Chardok again.. Palli Dirge Warden Swash Ranger Assasin...6grp</p><p>Guardian- yeah another easyone..</p><p>Necromancer-Uhm I hate sebs (have i mentioned that)...Guard Templar Swash Dirge Necro Necro</p><p>Troubador-Didn't do this one but its just running CoA and Maidens.. woohooo so hard..</p><p>Ok i think thats enough.. yeah other quest lines may be longer and take more time do to harvesting stupid stuff but come on. None and I mean none of them were remotely hard exept maybe Sebs and Chardok for a few of them. They were very much so doable, didn;t require good communication or anything of that sort. I am not complaining because yes i did get my Epic and i have help a few other swash's get theres. It is not easy nor comparable to any other classes Final Mobs. And yes you are correct the timers for Jones are completely random. I set up ACT to make noise at me 3 secs b4 the were supposed to go off ( yes and with different sound) but they were going off so often and random it sounded like a badly tuned orchestra with a bunch of kids beating on the intruments.. It was stupid hard and IMO I like a challenge but either tune up the other classes final kills or tune ours down..</p>

[tass]

true from what ive seen it is a pain. But on the other hand if you have completed it you can honestly say, thats right im a badass. In fact if you complete this encounter they should give you some kind of a title. Like heroic, hero, legendary, something to show you died 50 times over lol.

[Emirikol]

I appreciate the comments thus far.  I will respond quickly to the "why another thread?" question.  The majority of the other threads have dealt with strategies (some call them exploits) that do not work since L43.  There are a couple of discussion threads that dealt with a couple of specific problems of this fight and I respect that has been tried.  What I had not seen was a concise discussion of all of the issues with the fight from point A to point Z.  I don't believe I have seen all of the problems that exist for other people as well.  However, I wanted to concisely enumerate every issue I have seen with the fight in the hope that other people would chime in with their constructive opinions on the matter.  In my experience, with SOE if there is a reasoned discussion as to why something is not correct they will get around to fixing it.  It is my sincere and reasoned belief that this encounter is not in line with the developer's original intent.  It is possible that this is already realized by SOE.  It is possible that the other threads have already gotten their attention.  It simply seemed to me that there wasn't a clear and logical discussion of what we feel is broken and why.In all honesty, while I welcome strategy discussions would prefer they not be in this thread unless they specifically address one of the items that is being discussed as imbalanced.  If there is a reasonable way to counter a specific problem, then by all means bring it up and explain why a particular factor of this encounter is completely fair.  Constructive discussion is very welcome.   I have read all of the other threads.  I'm not looking to rehash those at all, but to be honest the only strategy which appears to be viable after LU4 3 is the one DirtyBird discussed in another thread .  It is awesome that DiretyBird is willing to tel l us how to win the fight still.   That strategy,  however, requires a minimum of two-high end DPS raiders in end game gear.  The stated  target would be approximately 4-8kdps (about 4k DPS each.)  Is that reasonable to  expect?  Is it reasonable to expect everyone is in  a level 50 guild?  Honestly, the way this is setu p now... the only people who can get their epic ar e people who don't need it other than on their way  to their mythical. I'm sure the folks who got their updates before LU43 are tired of hearing about this.  For those of us who are unable to do so, it is still an issue.

[g0thiC_iCe_cReaM]

<p>Actually after thinking about it a little more lastnight there's really only a couple things that could be changed to make the encounter easier for non-raiders to complete.</p><p>1. Make the AOE happen less often. Doesn't have to be a one time per fight, just a little less often, maybe even just a couple seconds less often. The AOE itself doesn't happen every 6 seconds like I've seen mentioned, it's a DoT if I remember correctly that ticks off every 6 seconds doing anywhere from 2k-4k per tick, changing it from a DoT to a regular direct damage would help a lot. Part of the issue is a lot of the time when it goes off the healers are then stifled and can't get anywhere near to getting in a heal before it ticks off on the group and kills most of them if you have bad luck and get a bad combination of stuff</p><p>2. Make him respect fear immunity. If you want him to have the chance to fear people that are immune, make the bird dispell buffs randomly.</p><p>3. Tone down the damage from the adds slightly, and I'm not talking about making them only hit for 100 or something, just tone down their damage slightly. Maybe a 5% reduction on their damage. That way if you do get a mezzer with you and they resist mez the first couple casts then there's still a hope in keeping the tank alive until it lands.</p><p>4. Make it so freedom of mind/cures/whatever actually work when he stuns and stifles.</p><p>I realize the fear immunity thing and the freedom of mind was probably intended, but when you get hit with a combination of craziness that will randomly make the encounter impossible or not, it makes it more frustrating than fun. Some <u>slight</u>  tweaks to the encounter I think would really go a long way in making it hard, but not to the level of frustration it's at now. Not all of the above has to be done to make the fight a little more bearable, but a couple considerations of any one of those 4 would definitely help. Either those, or just make him use his abilities less often overall. I don't know, but it seems to me that it's a constant barrage of his abilities that keeps this to a "dumb luck" encounter.</p>

[Margen]

<p>While your ideas have merit, I personally think they should remove one of his tricks, either fear or mezz, or at least make them curable.  The idea that you need city merchant symbols or a dirge/Bard with the right AA's to even have a chance at this fight is wrong.  Ive fought tier 8 epics that can't do half of what this guy does, heck some of them even do less dps LOL.</p><p>The simple fact is that to many times the mob mezzes/fears the tank at the wrong time and its a wipe.  An encounter should not depend on having a set of specific classes and LUCK vs having a strong group with competant players is silly.  Its hard enough getting my guildies to do this any more, not because they don't want to help me, but because they are frustrated with this encounter.</p><p>The encounter should still be tough, dont get me wrong, but it should be tough with a good group of strong players vs being impossible unless you have ceratian classes and worst LUCK.</p>

[stormBringerJim]

<p>ok ive comptleted this guy a few times b4 the lu but after that i have not killed him but was within 10 % multiple time this guy is a hard burn and i mean hard </p><p>i have a parse b4 the update beat him and we had a grp runing 5k dps but after th lu we had him to 6 % with no illy iin grp so if any ones still haveing trouble one bard with aoe immune mystic templar gaurdian illy and a swash with a grp dps of close to 5 k and if ur swah cant put out the dps he will need to work on that </p><p>jones should be dead in about a minute to min and a half will also need a little luck maybe a godspell or 2 but the parate is the killer mezz him the healers should have minium trouble healing the tank time ae immunes together sanctuary after wards or u could go with 3 swashes all with ae immune that seems to work out good and also i play on a pvp server only Q classes mixing it up might make it ezier but i cant say about that and if your gaurd has some trouble with aggro was manly our problem, warlock pally might help with that</p><p>but with this guy, Dps is the key so get some high parsers </p><p>he is very hard but not immpossible</p>

[Korwyn]

<p>Please look at the Pirate Jones Encounter...was it actually tested before release?</p><p> Kilbane</p>

[Lyndro-EQ2]

We'll take a look at making Mr. Jones a little more in line with some of the other epic encounters.

[Korwyn]

<p>Thank you!</p><p> Kilbane</p>

[PakMonyet]

YAAY!   LYNDRO TO THE RESCUE......!

[Bloodfa]

On behalf of another 2 Swashies I know, thanks.

[Margen]

Thank you, hopefully its soon <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

[Emirikol]

Thank you for looking at this.  It is appreciated.

[Laccy]

<p>Emirikol, thank you, thank you, thank you for creating this thread and seemingly getting the encounter's first real attention from devs (even though it's apparent that changes were made in LU43).</p><p>Having attempted this encounter nearly 50 times with varied groups, pre- and post-LU43, I can't really express the relief I feel that it's not just me who is suffering, not just a virtual battering, but a good ego battering also. This encounter has undermined my belief in my own abilities to a limited extent, especially when reading the stories and taunts put forth by successful swashies in this and other threads - on this and other boards.</p><p>Prior to your post, I had resigned myself to losing the good will of my colleagues in assisting me with this encounter.</p><p>Prior to your post, only my friends remained faithful, but I hadn't  the heart to ask any more of them, especially seeing how helpless they were in trying to help me.</p><p>Prior to your post, I believed that the only way to win this encounter was down to luck alone. What's wrong with me?</p><p>Now I can see at least some of the obstacles I have been pitting myself against. Thanks to your well constructed analysis.</p><p>Again, Emirikol, well done on all the work necessary to put together a structured post of the encounter and posting it. I trust that the devs will be able to keep this encounter consistent with the final encounters of other class epic quests and, in doing so, maintain its difficulty, while keeping it fun.</p>

[Writer Cal]

Thank you!  Getting tired of watching my fiance stuck at this part because a single mention of Jones seems to send anyone who might normally help with quest updates fleeing.

[Emirikol]

I'm just pleased they are going to look at it again.  SOE has been good about looking at serious imbalances in the past.  It just takes time.  I can understand why they wouldn't want to do anything too hasty.  The fact that it is on the radar is good enough for me.Thanks again to the dev and to all who chimed in on this.

[Froed20]

Thanks for looking into this.  Personally, I like the idea one person posted (not sure if it was in these forums or eqflames) to change the fight into a ring event where you'd fight adds first and then fight Jones.  It'd make a bit more sense, you'd still have the challenge of the ae stifle/stun/fear and parrot to deal with, but the lack of 6 additional adds in the same fight would at least make it managable. 

[g0thiC_iCe_cReaM]

<cite>Fayle@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>Thanks for looking into this.  Personally, I like the idea one person posted (not sure if it was in these forums or eqflames) to change the fight into a ring event where you'd fight adds first and then fight Jones.  It'd make a bit more sense, you'd still have the challenge of the ae stifle/stun/fear and parrot to deal with, but the lack of 6 additional adds in the same fight would at least make it managable.  </blockquote><p>Twas me <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p><a href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=411176�" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...411176�</a></p><p>I like the idea of a ring for it as well. Think it's just 4 adds at the moment, but still, those adds will drop me fast if they're allowed to hit me as it stands now, and I've got pretty decent gear...granted I've added some raid gear to my collection since the last time I attempted this, but I doubt it would make much of a difference since they hit so hard in combination with Jones atm.</p><p>You could even do it similar to the zerker ring...while it's very hard, you still have a fighting chance with that one...</p>

[OpethPA]

<p>So finally got this fight done last night.</p><p> Group setup was a guard, me, assassin, mystic, fury and Illy. </p><p>We all cast our Symbols of Clear voice on pull (stifle prevent)</p><p>I hit Advanced Warning on pull</p><p>Someone had mentioned earlier in the day in the WW swash channel that if the parrot kills the person it first aggros on, it goes deaggro the rest of the fight. So the tank stayed on The Pirate. AS soon as the parrot spawned I hit it and let it kill me. Bird stayed daggro the rest of the fight. Not sure if this is true but it worked for me. </p><p>Got a rez, hit my Mischief Maker prayer , jumped up and debuffed Pirate while buffing myself. Got back in the fight and burned the pirate while the illy locked down both sets of adds.  </p><p> Now I know someone that did it earlier in the day and the Parrot did not spawn but that to me just implies even more that the encounter needs to be replanned if their is an element of luck to it. </p>

[Steve11418]

I can confirm that luck has a lot to do with it.On my third pull we got him down to 2%... If we had of killed him I would have thought the encounter was ok, not understanding that I was just lucky.50+ attempts later over 3-4 nights saw success, finally exploiting the encounter (pulling adds first) and then killing the pirate... and even then it took 6 attempts to kill him.Apart from maybe Pawbuster... this fight is seriously harder than any T1 raid mob.