City Factions have failed. [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Izzypop

03-10-2008, 02:04 PM

PvP city factions are a red server only experiment.City guilds have failed.Exiles are clearing T4 & have their raid epicsQ City guilds can't even finish T2, Freeps just barely cleared itBlame the system for crippling city guildsBlame the city guilds for not raiding hard enoughBlame the exiles for raiding 10 hours a dayBlame the city guilds for being [Removed for Content]Blame the system for encouraging the best raiders to exile.Blame defecting city raiders for joining the winning team.Blame the token system for moving too slowBlame the 1st writ system for moving to slowBlame the 2nd writ system for crashing the serversBlame the city guilds for crying too muchIt doesn't matter 1 bit who gets the blame.Placement of blame does not change the 1 single dominant fact in this debate.Does it really matter where the blame lies when the problem is not being fixed?The experiment of good/evil only class based city guilds has failedCity guild report card time<img src="http://files.meetup.com/465206/F.bmp" border="0" alt="" />Even devs are slipping up and saying it's failed at both conventions, and on Allakazam.The only solution that has not been tried yet is giving city factions all classes like the get on blue servers, and that seems to be what loose lipped devs are hinting at. Many people have said this is a terrible idea. In the past I have been one of them myself, and still don't like it. But the plain simple fact is this grand old experiment called city classes only guilds in a faction has failed. Everything soe has done to try to "Fix" something experimental that has never even proven to "work" in the 1st place their plans backfire and it just seem to make things worse. Maybe it's time to throw in the towel, and give city factions all classes.

KatrinaDeath

03-10-2008, 02:33 PM

Altho I disagree with 1/3 of your post... I agree that the city factions have indeed failed. If these rumors are in fact true I would put some serious loot saying I will be Freeports first Mystic. Wow.... Just typing that made me tingle.

Bloodfa

03-10-2008, 02:41 PM

For what it's worth, I would love to be a Qeynosian Shadow Knight.Mmmm, kinda ... kinky.

Magic8Ba

03-10-2008, 02:46 PM

As with any GAME – when it becomes obvious that due to the mechanics of the game, there is an imbalance – it won’t take long before people simply stop playing.An example of this: if I spend twenty hrs of game time and someone else spends 20hrs of game time – and due to the game mechanics they get gear that will beat me every time in pvp regardless of my ‘skill’ it won’t take long before I’ve had enough and will just go do something else (or play a different game).Everyone loses in this situation (even the guys that initially benefits from the flawed game mechanics) – cause eventually the game dies,I applaud the exiles on their mythicals, and they should enjoy them while they can. But if the city folks aren’t allowed to compete, be it through pvp gear, or some other way – it won’t be long till all there is exile and a decimated server population.If you don’t think there’s an advantage in raiding as an exile w/all classes, you must ask yourself – why haven’t ANY city guild achieved the same success? Because all city guilds suck? While this thinking may make the exiles feel better about themselves, the real reason remains – because an imbalance does indeed exist.To counter the imbalance, the city folks have often clung to the idea that PVP gear, or city only items, is the equalizer.Now with tokens and pvp gear in limbo – it will be only a matter of time before more and more people simply stop playing.Some suggestions.Idea #1:An easy temp fix would be to at least put the writ giver back into the cities. Sure this is less convenient, but at least we can start getting tokens again.Idea #2: move the writ giver around in the open zones- after they give say, 25 writs, they despawn and reappear in a totally different zone. Make the 4x+ raids move around a bit – zone to zone to find him. If you spread the pvp out across 2-3 zones, it would at least help the lag, and add to strats, and help out smaller grps.Idea #3: Have two separate writ giver (one for Q and FP) on opposite ends of the zone. And have a L85 raid mob (ie. City Guard) protecting their respective writ giver.Idea #4: Along with writs, reintroduce token body drops at 50% what it use to be. Heck even 30% would be ok.Random idea #5: Let city folks hire city guards to help fight exiles <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> for 5 tokens – I can get a horn that summons a single up city guard. For 10 tokens I can get a horn that summons a heroic city guard.- Blink

Amphibia

03-10-2008, 02:51 PM

I'll admit I never thought this would have any chance of happening. But if it does, I think it might be a good thing.... Hmm... are coercers fun? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />

KatrinaDeath

03-10-2008, 02:58 PM

<cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll admit I never thought this would have any chance of happening. But if it does, I think it might be a good thing.... Hmm... are coercers fun? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>I think the Coercers have some super secret boards where they have a list of every zone and what the best pet to charm is. No longer would you be stalked by an image of yourself but you could have some 85^^^ Danak guard to protect you.

Izzypop

03-10-2008, 03:04 PM

PvP gear has never proven the ability to overcome the lack of all classes when raiding.Are city PvP guild players more or less hardcore than blue server players?Is blue server raid progression better or worse than city PvP guild progression?

Roald

03-10-2008, 03:09 PM

<cite>Swisha@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Amphibia wrote:</cite><blockquote>I'll admit I never thought this would have any chance of happening. But if it does, I think it might be a good thing.... Hmm... are coercers fun? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote>I think the Coercers have some super secret boards where they have a list of every zone and what the best pet to charm is. No longer would you be stalked by an image of yourself but you could have some 85^^^ Danak guard to protect you.</blockquote>Yea, and you would also have fun when that 85^^^ breaks and turns into a mega-[Removed for Content] on yo [Removed for Content] <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Raidyen

03-10-2008, 03:44 PM

Agree completely City factions should have access to all classes.Exiles should not be the norm in T8, period.There is no reason to not allow this other then the "lore" people, however all over blue servers Shadowknights of freeport and Paladins of Qyenos are out raiding together, why in the world are they not allowed to do so on a pvp server. Players make the Lore work, not the Devs. Devs can give us a storyline, but when it comes down to playing the game, it is up to each player as to whether or not they choose to follow that story or not. Any player on a blue server that has helped or joined a group with an opposing city faction has already betrayed that lore. Problem is that players on the pvp server don't have that option.All that said, a couple of fix ideas.1. Easy fix, add all classes to both cities. Add trainers to each city, perhaps putting them in obscure locations like the sewers. This could be done on pvp servers only fairly easy if they didnt want this to bleed over onto the blue servers.2. Force Exiles to choose a city alignment while they are exiled. Keep all PvE stuff the same, they have to live in haven, no housing, etc. But for pvp purposes they are only live to the oposite faction, and can guild with a city aligned guild.

KannaWhoopass

03-10-2008, 03:49 PM

The Only true way to test this is to take the Players who are Exile and clearing mobs and bring them back to the city faction and see if they still can can.That is the only true way know to what extent there is an imbalance. I would agree there is one, but the question is is it so grat that it is impossible for city factions to compete. It isnt a popular thing to say , but if you can agree that the best Raiders on the server are in the Exile faction now. Than that is why they are clearing the content that they are . There are guilds on Blue servers who are not clearing it ... with all classes. Is having a 2 scout and 2 fighter and 2 mage classes such an issue to make success impossible ?I know that it will be Harder .. but is it unreasonably hard is the question ... Im just not convinced that if Onyx , or Kraken came back to the Cities ... that they couldnt get back to where they are now.. It would be harder ... but i think possible... Part of the problem is .. there is a lack of skilled raiders in the cities... they all left for Exile ..

Raidyen

03-10-2008, 04:02 PM

<cite>Jitter@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Only true way to test this is to take the Players who are Exile and clearing mobs and bring them back to the city faction and see if they still can can.That is the only true way know to what extent there is an imbalance. I would agree there is one, but the question is is it so grat that it is impossible for city factions to compete. It isnt a popular thing to say , but if you can agree that the best Raiders on the server are in the Exile faction now. Than that is why they are clearing the content that they are . There are guilds on Blue servers who are not clearing it ... with all classes. Is having a 2 scout and 2 fighter and 2 mage classes such an issue to make success impossible ?I know that it will be Harder .. but is it unreasonably hard is the question ... Im just not convinced that if Onyx , or Kraken came back to the Cities ... that they couldnt get back to where they are now.. It would be harder ... but i think possible... Part of the problem is .. there is a lack of skilled raiders in the cities... they all left for Exile .. </blockquote>The good raiders left the city factions to go exile. They didnt do that to challenge themselves, they did it so they could do the raid content easier. How large of an imbalance there is is not relevant. The fact is raiders are playing exiles for the sole purpose of getting through raid content easier. If its easier, thats where they will go.Im not saying city factions don't have good raiders, the ones that stayed i have alot of respect for their determination to raid while still maintaining some pvp loyalty. But the fact is its easier to raid exile, and it shouldnt be. Eventaully everyone that wants thier epics, or to experience the raid content will move on to exile. As far as blue server guilds not being successful, PvP players have always been one step ahead of blue servers as far as player skill, sure there are your exceptions, but for the most part pvp players are just better geared, spell upgraded, and more skilled the thier blue server counterparts. So it doesnt surprise me at all blue servers are having a bit of trouble.

Csky

03-10-2008, 04:45 PM

<cite>Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>For what it's worth, I would love to be a Qeynosian Shadow Knight.Mmmm, kinda ... kinky.</blockquote>Hmmm.... no Thanks stay in FP!!! if you wanna come to Q then you have to be reformed into a paliSKs and paladins arent even important raid chars so try again :p i can see some chars that could fit in either faction but SKs and palis are not those charsas far as the post goes, this is a PVP server and SoE doesnt really owe us easier PVE..i would like to see the PVP gear the BEST weapons and gear for PVP tho since it was earned in PVP..then raiding for PVE gear would be irrelevant

Ther

03-10-2008, 05:24 PM

As an "RPesq" player, I'm deeply troubled by the thought that such an idea as destroying the barrier between good and evil is even being considered. Why even have 2 factions at that point?World of Warcrap did something like that for purposes of balance. Is that where we're looking to for guidance now?I came to PvP because I didn't enjoy the feel of things of the PvE servers. The only significance of being good or evil on a PvE server is what cities you can walk into. Then you go out into the world and it's like Pallys and SKs are best of friends... Yay! Lets bake cookies!No, thank you. This isn't the time for some rash, unreversible, destructive patch-up job. The solution to this- the true solution, not work-around, would require some out-of-the-box thinking. But this idea... what a travesty that would be.I would favor some sort of "treaty" system, that would temporarily allow good and evil players to group and communicate; but being that only a dev could know what's practically feasible, it's hard to make any kind of meaningful suggestion.

Bloodfa

03-10-2008, 05:45 PM

Hmmm, I brought this up a while back, when somebody else made the "open classes up on both sides" suggestion. If it's lore that gets people up in arms (aside from saying re-roll on AB or LDL), you can easily justify it. Inquisitors in a 'good' city? You guys forget who the Inquisitors were? What organization they were a branch of? They reported directly to the Pope. Assassins? Every government used (uses?) them, because history has proven again and again that sometimes it's just easier to replace from the top down. Shadow Knight? What a Crusader gone bad? The end justifying the means? Again, history is rife with examples of that. Brigand. Hmmmm ... Admiral Sir Henry Morgan fit the description of a Brigand more than a Swashbuckler, and yet still not only was made an Admiral but a Governor. Lore be damned, the only one I can't truly find an excuse, er... justification for is the Necromancer. Unless you go into Leonardo Da Vinci's dabbling with cadavers to further science. Opening it up to all classes would be the end of exile as the guilds choose one city or the other. Then it really would be a moot point, as both side would have the best of both worlds player-wise, and the best of both worlds gear-wise.

Pelda

03-10-2008, 05:51 PM

<cite>Jitter@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Only true way to test this is to take the Players who are Exile and clearing mobs and bring them back to the city faction and see if they still can can.That is the only true way know to what extent there is an imbalance. I would agree there is one, but the question is is it so grat that it is impossible for city factions to compete. It isnt a popular thing to say , but if you can agree that the best Raiders on the server are in the Exile faction now. Than that is why they are clearing the content that they are . There are guilds on Blue servers who are not clearing it ... with all classes. Is having a 2 scout and 2 fighter and 2 mage classes such an issue to make success impossible ?I know that it will be Harder .. but is it unreasonably hard is the question ... Im just not convinced that if Onyx , or Kraken came back to the Cities ... that they couldnt get back to where they are now.. It would be harder ... but i think possible... Part of the problem is .. there is a lack of skilled raiders in the cities... they all left for Exile .. </blockquote>We kinda did the reverse of this. We were a Qeynos only guild that were banging our heads even against doomcoil at the time. We went exile, some changed classes so they switched to a defiler, brigand, assassin, and necro. The next time we went in we EASILY cleared PR. Now granted we could probably go back now with a Qeynos only guild and clear it again but with a tad more difficulty. Having all classes makes it better certainly. Having dedicated raiders makes a world of difference. Now combine the 2 and thats what you get in exile. Having all classes in both cities would definitely be against the lore. Heck people are up in arms about lore and exiles not being right. How would putting a shadowknight or an Assassin in Qeynos be right?

Bayler_x

03-10-2008, 05:55 PM

It's too early to calls city raiding a failures! We'll gets there. And we'll do's it withouts templars! <sticks her tongue out at the naysayers>

KatrinaDeath

03-10-2008, 05:58 PM

Lore is what you make of it. If the games changes then it's not against the lore... It IS the lore.Say the Droag go nuts in KoS and come down the spires and start owning the shattered lands. (If sony did that as a live event) Then that becomes lore. "Remember when the Droag almost overtook Freeport?" Things become lore.Sony can write it out well... Overlord says Defiler are too weak with their melee skills so he decided to recruit some Mystics. It's against his way but he made a change.You can't screw with lore!!! But what happens today becomes lore.

Raidyen

03-10-2008, 06:43 PM

<cite>Theris@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>As an "RPesq" player, I'm deeply troubled by the thought that such an idea as destroying the barrier between good and evil is even being considered. Why even have 2 factions at that point?World of Warcrap did something like that for purposes of balance. Is that where we're looking to for guidance now?I came to PvP because I didn't enjoy the feel of things of the PvE servers. The only significance of being good or evil on a PvE server is what cities you can walk into. Then you go out into the world and it's like Pallys and SKs are best of friends... Yay! Lets bake cookies!No, thank you. This isn't the time for some rash, unreversible, destructive patch-up job. The solution to this- the true solution, not work-around, would require some out-of-the-box thinking. But this idea... what a travesty that would be.I would favor some sort of "treaty" system, that would temporarily allow good and evil players to group and communicate; but being that only a dev could know what's practically feasible, it's hard to make any kind of meaningful suggestion.</blockquote>Ok lets not confuse the issue here. I totally agree that Qeynos and Freeport players should not be out baking cookies. I am talking about the Classes. Race and Deity should be what determains your city "alignment". Not your character class. Character class should have NOTHING to do with City Alignment.I am totally opposed to any kind of Treaty between the 2 cities. Freeportians are my hated enemies. Not Shadowknights and Necros. I dont care what class you are, if you are from Freeport, you deserve to die. Simple as that.

Edavi

03-10-2008, 07:12 PM

If people are concerned about Lore.... Then I think there is a LORE problem with encouraging Exile to be able to raid successfully... That doesnt seem to make sense to me if they are so concerned about LORE why are you allowed to group and raid in Exile... I thought they were supposed to be Exiled... As in, no one will give them the time of day...Why are there so many people in the Exile "Faction" if they are so concerned about lore? Lor is already pwned, so trying to stop changes based on Lore... its just pointless

Csky

03-10-2008, 07:16 PM

why are exiles even allowed to form guilds and be safe from PVP in a cave? they chose to leave the safety of the city behind them

Norrsken

03-10-2008, 07:18 PM

<cite>Csky wrote:</cite><blockquote>why are exiles even allowed to form guilds and be safe from PVP in a cave? they chose to leave the safety of the city behind them</blockquote>Well, leaving the safety of cities behind isnt the same thing as spitting companionship int he face.Exiles all over the place in varios other forms of lore, and even reality clusters together to fend off the "evil" places they ran off from... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Furthermore, lore has no valid point at all to make in a discussion about balance imho. Lore can easily be written to support pretty much any change in mechanics/balance in the game.

Menstor

03-10-2008, 08:55 PM

Seriously? This stuff is still technically brand new. Maybe I'm just from the class of people that says, "if its harder, it makes us better for doing it." Thus far, all I've really heard is, "we can't do it, make it easier," and I, for one, hope it stays difficult. I mean, these are lvl 8X x4s. They're SUPPOSED to be hard. And, if you don't enjoy city specific raiding... you do have options. Become an Exiled or leave the PvP game style. If you don't want to do those... get better, gear up, and stop crying.

Bloodfa

03-10-2008, 09:20 PM

See, the irony is that it's a PvP server. And the thing is ... some people want there to be PvP based rewards. As opposed to PvE based rewards. Which is what everybody who played before PvP left to come here to PvP. See the irony?

Ther

03-11-2008, 05:25 AM

<cite>Raidyen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am totally opposed to any kind of Treaty between the 2 cities. Freeportians are my hated enemies. Not Shadowknights and Necros. I dont care what class you are, if you are from Freeport, you deserve to die. Simple as that.</blockquote>Freeport and Qeynos had no trouble putting their differences aside to deal with the Rallosians. So what's so unreasonable about having a temporary Non-Aggressive Pact between guilds within opposing factions, that suits their mutual needs against a common enemy?Surly that would be better than tearing down deep seeded traditions, dating back over a millennium, which clearly show Good is vehemently and unwaveringly opposed to dark magics as practiced by Necromancers, Shadowknights and Defilers, and Evil rejects the timid ways of Paladins, Rangers and their life loving, tree hugging brethren.If you allow any class to be allowed in any city, then there will be almost no practical distinction between the factions. The sense of good and evil, the sense of two factions so disgusted by the ways of eachother, they can find no ultimate reconciliation, will be gone.What will be left of this game? Little more than a high-level raid fest, except on these servers, you can argue and bicker over contested mobs with abilities, instead of words.I have seen time and time again an elitist (though, justified) attitude on PvP servers, that we really earn what we get, because we're playing on hard mode. Where's that attitude now? What happened to, "If you want easy mode, go play on a blue server!"?I never thought I'd see the day when I would be compelled to use such an argument, but...If you want to play on easy mode, go back to PvE. Otherwise, suck it up, stop complaining, and start trying. Gods forbid it actually takes a little time to get your Mythical...

Muraazi

03-11-2008, 06:04 AM

The lore is bs anyway. Blue servers have been grouping guilding raiding together since launch. How is that not againest lore. I am curious as to what SoE will do with guild halls and guilds (probably all) that have opposing faction members.

Izzypop

03-11-2008, 11:06 AM

I've made arguments on both sides of this issue before. It's really easy to say that city guilds are just not trying hard enough, or that they are just not good enough. There are some valid points behind that, but the real weakness of city guilds is their players can just go exile. When 1 faction can raid better than other factions it just doesn't matter how much easier they can raid than the other faction. It could be a minor difference or a major difference, the fact remains that it is the path of least resistance. When players who only think of themselves get fed up and frustrated with not being able to do what another faction can do they quit the game, or join the winning faction.1st the selfish & self absorbed leave, then the downtrodden & depressed who were thinking of quiting anyways follow. After that many guilds have a major set back and suffer negative progression.The statements that it's too early to call city guilds a failure is bunk. PvP has been out for a while now and it's been the same on every tier. When have city guilds ever been further progressed than exile guilds? It's the same story in RoK as it was in EoF and KoS.

Raidyen

03-11-2008, 11:33 AM

<cite>Theris@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Raidyen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am totally opposed to any kind of Treaty between the 2 cities. Freeportians are my hated enemies. Not Shadowknights and Necros. I dont care what class you are, if you are from Freeport, you deserve to die. Simple as that.</blockquote>Freeport and Qeynos had no trouble putting their differences aside to deal with the Rallosians. So what's so unreasonable about having a temporary Non-Aggressive Pact between guilds within opposing factions, that suits their mutual needs against a common enemy?Surly that would be better than tearing down deep seeded traditions, dating back over a millennium, which clearly show Good is vehemently and unwaveringly opposed to dark magics as practiced by Necromancers, Shadowknights and Defilers, and Evil rejects the timid ways of Paladins, Rangers and their life loving, tree hugging brethren.If you allow any class to be allowed in any city, then there will be almost no practical distinction between the factions. The sense of good and evil, the sense of two factions so disgusted by the ways of eachother, they can find no ultimate reconciliation, will be gone.What will be left of this game? Little more than a high-level raid fest, except on these servers, you can argue and bicker over contested mobs with abilities, instead of words.I have seen time and time again an elitist (though, justified) attitude on PvP servers, that we really earn what we get, because we're playing on hard mode. Where's that attitude now? What happened to, "If you want easy mode, go play on a blue server!"?I never thought I'd see the day when I would be compelled to use such an argument, but...If you want to play on easy mode, go back to PvE. Otherwise, suck it up, stop complaining, and start trying. Gods forbid it actually takes a little time to get your Mythical...</blockquote>First i disagree completely there would be no differences between the factions. Race determains what your starting city is. Good, nuetral or evil. Deities are only avaliable to certain factions. Besides all that, Exiles get access to every class and race, and any combonation of the 2. Gives them an advantage not only in raiding, but pvp as well, making the exile faction the best faction of the 3. Second, allowing any class in the city's wouldnt turn this game into a raid fest overnight. People that want to raid now are just going exile. This change would allow them to maintain a city alignment, and still enjoy the part of the game they want.Third, the last thing i want is easymode, thats why i play on pvp. That said, i also want the same rules to apply to everyone on the pvp server. Currently one faction has a large advantage over the other 2. That i am not ok with. My goal is not to make raids easy mode, it is to remove exile as the prefered T8 faction for raiders. If another solution might be to remove exile all together, or not allow them to guild, im fine with that. However i feel Any class would be the path of least resistance to the player base, other then the handful of RP/lore people that dont want to see change. Raiders that have already seen the raid content in the exile faction would not be ok with having to go back to city classes only to complete those raids.I do have a question though, other then lore, or the opinion that it would take out some faction diversity, how exactly would allowing any class in the city negatively effect how you play?

Nimbrithil

03-11-2008, 12:52 PM

<cite>Jitter@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>The Only true way to test this is to take the Players who are Exile and clearing mobs and bring them back to the city faction and see if they still can can.That is the only true way know to what extent there is an imbalance. I would agree there is one, but the question is is it so grat that it is impossible for city factions to compete. It isnt a popular thing to say , but if you can agree that the best Raiders on the server are in the Exile faction now. Than that is why they are clearing the content that they are . There are guilds on Blue servers who are not clearing it ... with all classes. Is having a 2 scout and 2 fighter and 2 mage classes such an issue to make success impossible ?I know that it will be Harder .. but is it unreasonably hard is the question ... Im just not convinced that if Onyx , or Kraken came back to the Cities ... that they couldnt get back to where they are now.. It would be harder ... but i think possible... Part of the problem is .. there is a lack of skilled raiders in the cities... they all left for Exile .. </blockquote>Wrong, Its been done time and again the opposite way.When Storm on Venekor Exiled the only real changes we made to our raid force was to add the classes we lacked either through people completely betraying over to Freport and becoming the evil version of thier class such as I did with Conji to necro or through a few choice recruitments. BUT or raid ABILITY went through the roof. We burned through most zones in short order where we barelt made INTO some of those zones as a purely Q guild.

Avanar

03-11-2008, 01:26 PM

How about this idea, they could resurrect /guildwar <name> concept (which they had in EQ1) and add in /guildally <name>...but only allow this for the Q and Fp as an option. This way a Q guild and Fp guild could have a temporary truce and technically be on the same team to fight the Exiles. Your could group together and would be immune from that guilds players during this time. You could set the /guildally <name> function to expire after x # of days, helping to retain traditional pvp content if the exiles become rare from the allying. Just an idea. Of course more thought needs to be added to this idea to prevent exploits so that 2 strong guilds don't rule the server. Maybe add in a cap where the allaince may only have a total of 100 unique player accounts, this could allow smaller guilds to ally and still compete, but as I said needs more thought and just an idea.IstaklinVenekor

Raidyen

03-11-2008, 01:59 PM

I like the thinking out of the box on this, however i still don't agree with an ally option. I don't want to have to befriend people i fight everyday in order to help each other get raid gear to help us kill each other. Again, i am not killing Shadownights/necro's/defilers, i am killing Freeportians. They are my enemy, not the class they play. Also what would happen if that raid force goes out into open zones and gets attacked? Are the Q's in that raid force going to stand thier and watch thier freep raid buddies die? I just see far to many problems with a system like this. The best thing to do is look at the simpliest solution to the problem. The more complex the solution, the more things will go wrong with it. (PvP writs perfect example). And i still dont get this aurgument of not wanting to see "shadowknights" running around Qyenos. I see trolls, ogres, darkelves, ratonga's every day, and the city doesnt seem to much care about that. If race doesnt make your "evil or good", then class certainly shouldnt either.

skidmark

03-11-2008, 03:07 PM

<cite>Bloodfang@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>Hmmm, I brought this up a while back, when somebody else made the "open classes up on both sides" suggestion. If it's lore that gets people up in arms (aside from saying re-roll on AB or LDL), you can easily justify it. Inquisitors in a 'good' city? You guys forget who the Inquisitors were? What organization they were a branch of? They reported directly to the Pope. Assassins? Every government used (uses?) them, because history has proven again and again that sometimes it's just easier to replace from the top down. Shadow Knight? What a Crusader gone bad? The end justifying the means? Again, history is rife with examples of that. Brigand. Hmmmm ... Admiral Sir Henry Morgan fit the description of a Brigand more than a Swashbuckler, and yet still not only was made an Admiral but a Governor. Lore be damned, the only one I can't truly find an excuse, er... justification for is the Necromancer. Unless you go into Leonardo Da Vinci's dabbling with cadavers to further science. Opening it up to all classes would be the end of exile as the guilds choose one city or the other. Then it really would be a moot point, as both side would have the best of both worlds player-wise, and the best of both worlds gear-wise.</blockquote>Give Clerics, Shaman, Rogues, Predators, Brawlers and Conjurors to both cities. Since I cannot see an Good SK/Necro, or an Evil Paladin I think they should remain faction specific.Do you really think that this would end the exile guilds? Would they all go back to the cities and have to get all of their spells back up to where they were before? I guess the only thing they would be lacking as an exile anymore would be the PvP gear, which doesn't sound like it is up to snuff as is.

skidmark

03-11-2008, 03:14 PM

<cite>Drocca@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Theris@Venekor wrote:</cite>Ok lets not confuse the issue here. I totally agree that Qeynos and Freeport players should not be out baking cookies. I am talking about the Classes. Race and Deity should be what determains your city "alignment". Not your character class. Character class should have NOTHING to do with City Alignment.I am totally opposed to any kind of Treaty between the 2 cities. Freeportians are my hated enemies. Not Shadowknights and Necros. I dont care what class you are, if you are from Freeport, you deserve to die. Simple as that.</blockquote>Ok, you say race and deity should determine your city "alignment". What deity would ever allow a Necromancer to worship them that wasn't evil? The dabbling in the arts of necromancy is one of the biggest taboos you can talk about. Therefore necromancers and shadowknights would not be allowed in both cities in your system either, since they would have to worship an evil deity.Are SK's/Necros/Paladins make or break for raids anyways?

Menstor

03-11-2008, 03:28 PM

<cite>Xikks@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Drocca@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Theris@Venekor wrote:</cite>Ok lets not confuse the issue here. I totally agree that Qeynos and Freeport players should not be out baking cookies. I am talking about the Classes. Race and Deity should be what determains your city "alignment". Not your character class. Character class should have NOTHING to do with City Alignment. I am totally opposed to any kind of Treaty between the 2 cities. Freeportians are my hated enemies. Not Shadowknights and Necros. I dont care what class you are, if you are from Freeport, you deserve to die. Simple as that.</blockquote>Ok, you say race and deity should determine your city "alignment". What deity would ever allow a Necromancer to worship them that wasn't evil? The dabbling in the arts of necromancy is one of the biggest taboos you can talk about. Therefore necromancers and shadowknights would not be allowed in both cities in your system either, since they would have to worship an evil deity.Are SK's/Necros/Paladins make or break for raids anyways?</blockquote>Who cares. Its a silly idea that would remove roleplaying, lore, and many other aspects of the game. People think that just because they can't do it that it can't be done and that devs should cater to them and them only. Odds are, these Exileds can do it because they don't suck, not because they have lots of classes to choose from.My advice would be, stop being babies and try harder. Your raid didn't fail because you didn't have a Shadowknight or an Inquisitor, or because you didn't have a Templar or a Paladin. Your raid failed because your raid wasn't good enough. It happens. Get better.

Roald

03-11-2008, 03:31 PM

Raidyen

03-11-2008, 03:35 PM

<cite>Menstor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xikks@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Drocca@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Theris@Venekor wrote:</cite>Ok lets not confuse the issue here. I totally agree that Qeynos and Freeport players should not be out baking cookies. I am talking about the Classes. Race and Deity should be what determains your city "alignment". Not your character class. Character class should have NOTHING to do with City Alignment. I am totally opposed to any kind of Treaty between the 2 cities. Freeportians are my hated enemies. Not Shadowknights and Necros. I dont care what class you are, if you are from Freeport, you deserve to die. Simple as that.</blockquote>Ok, you say race and deity should determine your city "alignment". What deity would ever allow a Necromancer to worship them that wasn't evil? The dabbling in the arts of necromancy is one of the biggest taboos you can talk about. Therefore necromancers and shadowknights would not be allowed in both cities in your system either, since they would have to worship an evil deity.Are SK's/Necros/Paladins make or break for raids anyways?</blockquote>Who cares. Its a silly idea that would remove roleplaying, lore, and many other aspects of the game. People think that just because they can't do it that it can't be done and that devs should cater to them and them only. Odds are, these Exileds can do it because they don't suck, not because they have lots of classes to choose from.My advice would be, stop being babies and try harder. Your raid didn't fail because you didn't have a Shadowknight or an Inquisitor, or because you didn't have a Templar or a Paladin. Your raid failed because your raid wasn't good enough. It happens. Get better.</blockquote>This does nothing to further the discussion. it is a FACT T8 exile is the place to be. It is superior in every way to the 2 city factions. There are tons of posts from exile guilds, Greywolves and Storm specificly on Venekor that are saying how much easier raids are now that they are exile. I tend to believe them.You say adding any class to any city removes roleplaying, lore and many other aspects. What other aspects? I have already disproven many times that this change would do nothing to effect your individual roleplay. As far as lore, it is not that much of a stretch, and even still, changes that are made become game lore. If you want to play a game that never evolves then get yourself a nice singleplayer RPG. These 2 reasons are not enough to change the playstyle of a large number of high level players, most of which have been with EQ for a very long time.I still ask the question, how does making this change negatively effect how you play the game?

Raidyen

03-11-2008, 03:41 PM

<cite>Xikks@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Drocca@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Theris@Venekor wrote:</cite>Ok lets not confuse the issue here. I totally agree that Qeynos and Freeport players should not be out baking cookies. I am talking about the Classes. Race and Deity should be what determains your city "alignment". Not your character class. Character class should have NOTHING to do with City Alignment. I am totally opposed to any kind of Treaty between the 2 cities. Freeportians are my hated enemies. Not Shadowknights and Necros. I dont care what class you are, if you are from Freeport, you deserve to die. Simple as that.</blockquote>Ok, you say race and deity should determine your city "alignment". What deity would ever allow a Necromancer to worship them that wasn't evil? The dabbling in the arts of necromancy is one of the biggest taboos you can talk about. Therefore necromancers and shadowknights would not be allowed in both cities in your system either, since they would have to worship an evil deity.Are SK's/Necros/Paladins make or break for raids anyways?</blockquote>All netural Deities. Most players on the pvp server are going with bristlebane now anyway. My pally worships Bristlbane, and so do Necro's and Shadowknights on the freep side. So no, they dont have to worship an evil deity. My experience, limited as it is, is that Pally's are far better tanks and second tanks on raids then Shadowknights. Also the sustained DPS necro's can put out without generating hate is extremely nice. Whether its raid breaking or not is up for debate, but right now exiles are using all classes and getting some extreme benefits in raids from it. So i would assume its helpful.

Menstor

03-11-2008, 03:53 PM

<cite>Drocca@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xikks@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Drocca@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Theris@Venekor wrote:</cite>Ok lets not confuse the issue here. I totally agree that Qeynos and Freeport players should not be out baking cookies. I am talking about the Classes. Race and Deity should be what determains your city "alignment". Not your character class. Character class should have NOTHING to do with City Alignment. I am totally opposed to any kind of Treaty between the 2 cities. Freeportians are my hated enemies. Not Shadowknights and Necros. I dont care what class you are, if you are from Freeport, you deserve to die. Simple as that.</blockquote>Ok, you say race and deity should determine your city "alignment". What deity would ever allow a Necromancer to worship them that wasn't evil? The dabbling in the arts of necromancy is one of the biggest taboos you can talk about. Therefore necromancers and shadowknights would not be allowed in both cities in your system either, since they would have to worship an evil deity.Are SK's/Necros/Paladins make or break for raids anyways?</blockquote>All netural Deities. Most players on the pvp server are going with bristlebane now anyway. My pally worships Bristlbane, and so do Necro's and Shadowknights on the freep side. So no, they dont have to worship an evil deity. My experience, limited as it is, is that Pally's are far better tanks and second tanks on raids then Shadowknights. Also the sustained DPS necro's can put out without generating hate is extremely nice. Whether its raid breaking or not is up for debate, but right now exiles are using all classes and getting some extreme benefits in raids from it. So i would assume its helpful.</blockquote>So go Exiled and get all the benefits.

skidmark

03-11-2008, 04:01 PM

It is a shame they allow SKs and Necros to worship Neutral deities.

Raidyen

03-11-2008, 04:01 PM

<cite>Menstor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Drocca@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Xikks@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Drocca@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Theris@Venekor wrote:</cite>Ok lets not confuse the issue here. I totally agree that Qeynos and Freeport players should not be out baking cookies. I am talking about the Classes. Race and Deity should be what determains your city "alignment". Not your character class. Character class should have NOTHING to do with City Alignment. I am totally opposed to any kind of Treaty between the 2 cities. Freeportians are my hated enemies. Not Shadowknights and Necros. I dont care what class you are, if you are from Freeport, you deserve to die. Simple as that.</blockquote>Ok, you say race and deity should determine your city "alignment". What deity would ever allow a Necromancer to worship them that wasn't evil? The dabbling in the arts of necromancy is one of the biggest taboos you can talk about. Therefore necromancers and shadowknights would not be allowed in both cities in your system either, since they would have to worship an evil deity.Are SK's/Necros/Paladins make or break for raids anyways?</blockquote>All netural Deities. Most players on the pvp server are going with bristlebane now anyway. My pally worships Bristlbane, and so do Necro's and Shadowknights on the freep side. So no, they dont have to worship an evil deity. My experience, limited as it is, is that Pally's are far better tanks and second tanks on raids then Shadowknights. Also the sustained DPS necro's can put out without generating hate is extremely nice. Whether its raid breaking or not is up for debate, but right now exiles are using all classes and getting some extreme benefits in raids from it. So i would assume its helpful.</blockquote>So go Exiled and get all the benefits.</blockquote>So i assume you have no reasons left, other then you dont want to see other players get something they want in order to help them enjoy the game at T8. Just admit the change wouldnt effect you, and move on to another debate.

Raidyen

03-11-2008, 04:03 PM

<cite>Xikks@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>It is a shame they allow SKs and Necros to worship Neutral deities.</blockquote>Its a shame they allow Deities on the pvp servers period. But they do.

Ther

03-12-2008, 04:07 PM

<cite>Drocca@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do have a question though, other then lore, or the opinion that it would take out some faction diversity, how exactly would allowing any class in the city negatively effect how you play?..And i still dont get this aurgument of not wanting to see "shadowknights" running around Qyenos. I see trolls, ogres, darkelves, ratonga's every day, and the city doesnt seem to much care about that. If race doesnt make your "evil or good", then class certainly shouldnt either...</blockquote>It would negatively effect how I play, because I'm a Roleplayer. The integrity of the lore, and it not being butchered out of convenience, is vital. If the lore is decimated, you degrade, or even destroy, the game for many RPers, and some RPesq players, who care about the lore and backstory.Even though it hasn't been a player option prior to EQII, there have been traitors of otherwise good or evil specific races that have been, more or less, accepted by their former enemies. While it was permissible to be of one of these races, practices of the opposing alignment were never acceptable.The very foundation of what good and evil means in the EQ universe has little to do with what god you worship, but what beliefs you uphold and, more importantly to this topic, what practices you partake in.I don't want to see PvP server populations drop further because people got fed up with stupid, rash changes, and left. That's another major reason why I don't support opening up any class to any city, and why I can't support destroying the exile faction by not allowing them to guild up or form raids.I think reasonable exile nerfing might be the next best choice, though. Don't destroy the faction, but give them appropriate penalties for being exiles. They are coddled far too much, given what kind of circumstances an exile should face.

Vlahkmaak

03-12-2008, 08:59 PM

Lore: The great dev excuse. BRING BACK BEASTLORDS - they are part of eq lore.

Shyalud

03-12-2008, 09:01 PM

<cite>Theris@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>As an "RPesq" player, I'm deeply troubled by the thought that such an idea as destroying the barrier between good and evil is even being considered. Why even have 2 factions at that point?World of Warcrap did something like that for purposes of balance. Is that where we're looking to for guidance now?I came to PvP because I didn't enjoy the feel of things of the PvE servers. The only significance of being good or evil on a PvE server is what cities you can walk into. Then you go out into the world and it's like Pallys and SKs are best of friends... Yay! Lets bake cookies!No, thank you. This isn't the time for some rash, unreversible, destructive patch-up job. The solution to this- the true solution, not work-around, would require some out-of-the-box thinking. But this idea... what a travesty that would be.I would favor some sort of "treaty" system, that would temporarily allow good and evil players to group and communicate; but being that only a dev could know what's practically feasible, it's hard to make any kind of meaningful suggestion.</blockquote>Sadly, EQ2 is based off of good vs evil. And while I know SOE would never change that scenario, something to consider is that the game could be based off of Guild vs Guild. Which I know follows the Exile way. however instead of a ruleset allowing evil v good...there would be a ruleset for guild vs guild...Allowing for treaty's and alliances. Similar to a FFA type of system, with guilds dominating the hiearchy instead of the cities.PVP would be rampant and only the Ironmen would go there, I think. Just my few coppers...

crumpledmonkey

03-12-2008, 09:23 PM

no good, no evil just 3 little lettersFFAthe only people you cant attack are the group that you are in and your guild mates.

MokiCh

03-12-2008, 09:52 PM

<cite>Theris@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Drocca@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I do have a question though, other then lore, or the opinion that it would take out some faction diversity, how exactly would allowing any class in the city negatively effect how you play?..And i still dont get this aurgument of not wanting to see "shadowknights" running around Qyenos. I see trolls, ogres, darkelves, ratonga's every day, and the city doesnt seem to much care about that. If race doesnt make your "evil or good", then class certainly shouldnt either...</blockquote>It would negatively effect how I play, because I'm a Roleplayer. The integrity of the lore, and it not being butchered out of convenience, is vital. If the lore is decimated, you degrade, or even destroy, the game for many RPers, and some RPesq players, who care about the lore and backstory.The problem here is that lore got chucked out the window on launch day, back when there were no pvp servers, when it became apparent that good and evil classes could group together with no repercussions and that players could form guilds in qeynos and then invite a bunch of freeport players and vice versa. Sure there was the minor annoyance of needing a friend to transfer stuff between toons in different cities, but beyond that the lore went to hell in a hand basket on 09 November, 2004. How would opening up all the classes for both sides on PvP be any different from what has existed (and been successfully dealt with/rationalized by roleplayers on blue servers) since day 1?Even though it hasn't been a player option prior to EQII, there have been traitors of otherwise good or evil specific races that have been, more or less, accepted by their former enemies. While it was permissible to be of one of these races, practices of the opposing alignment were never acceptable.The very foundation of what good and evil means in the EQ universe has little to do with what god you worship, but what beliefs you uphold and, more importantly to this topic, what practices you partake in.Actually, according to EQ2 lore, evil races are universally evil, good races are universally good, and only the neutral races have any kind of choice about it. For example:"Dark Elves are the embodiment of evil and maliciousness. Sinister, cunning and dangerous, dark elves coolly prey upon the weak and the ignorant. Dark Elves look down upon all other races, but in the past have made use of trolls and ogres as evil pawns. Dark Elves are one of the three known ancient elf races, they are known by the elf word, Teir'Dal, a word meaning "elf of the abyss." They have existed for ages in the dark underworlds of Norrath. Dark Elves are an evil race, they may start in either Freeport or Neriak." -- <a href="http://everquest2.station.sony.com/allraces.vm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">EverQuest2 ~> Race Description: Dark Elf</a>This description classifies three out of the seven possible "evil" races as universally evil, with no possibility of there being an exception. Granted, you could take this as literally as you wanted to, but this is the lore. If you choose to ignore that portion, or interpret it more loosely, that's your business, but then you really can't go on about how you oppose changes that go against the lore of the game because lore is already pretty much optional to you.I don't want to see PvP server populations drop further because people got fed up with stupid, rash changes, and left. That's another major reason why I don't support opening up any class to any city, and why I can't support destroying the exile faction by not allowing them to guild up or form raids.I think reasonable exile nerfing might be the next best choice, though. Don't destroy the faction, but give them appropriate penalties for being exiles. They are coddled far too much, given what kind of circumstances an exile should face.Exile already has enough penalties imposed on it. Access to all classes is about the ONLY perk you get as an exile. Your broker has a 50% markup for any and all transactions, you can only sell your stuff to other exiles (a pretty small base of potential customers, who all have to pay 50% extra so you wont make as much as you would in a city), crafting fuels are through the roof (if you thought 2p for a stack of T8 fuel was bad, try buying it in exile), you get no house unless you go to maj'dul, etc. Exile is fine the way it is.</blockquote>I think the best way to implement making all classes available to both cities (assuming they even intend to make this change, because, as it stands, the only official word that I've heard on the issue was the dev in dev chat who stated that it won't happen) would be to chuck the whole Realm vs Realm mechanic and let players talk to the other factions again, group together, guild or raid together, but still attack each other (even people of their own city) if they feel like it. PvP level ranges, immunity, recent lists, etc could stay. Tokens might need to be reworked some, but they need to do that anyway since a decent solution to that problem hasn't been found yet either. You might see some pally vs pally fights or assassin vs SK, but you get those already if you fight exiles.If you're a roleplayer, you can still only group with freeps and have a freep only guild, just like the roleplayers on the blue servers do, and go out and hunt the enemies of freeport or whatever it is that you do, and if you don't RP you get to enjoy the benefits of having all classes and a better shot at completing raid zones.

Wildfury77

03-13-2008, 01:06 AM

We don't need ALL classes to raid effectively!!Make CLERICS and ROGUES neutral and notice the difference! No way should Defilers/SKs etc be allowed in Qeynos! Qeynos gets Brigands and InquisitorsFreeport gets Templar and swashie.....Then there would be no issue with raiding imho. Keep nasty defilers/SKs etc away from us <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Damurderer

03-13-2008, 02:03 AM

OK, flat out all the people that saying it isn't easier to raid with all classes are wrong, end of story no arguments. The reason i know this is that i have been in all 3 raid type guilds Q FP and Exile. Flat Q's have it the hardest then FP then exiles. Exile raiding is abundantly easier. I was a member of the first all Q guild worldwide to kill Alzid prime and Lord vyem. We were months behind FP and Exiles in it simply because we didnt have amnesia to make Alzid reset. Q guilds do not have near the raidwide DPS of Fp or exile because the debuffs aren't nearly as good. A defiler has much better wards than a mystic. Templars are much better than Inquiz for a main tank group. Assassins are absolutely the best DPS raid class in the game, ask the people that have assassins with mythicals that are parsing 10k plus on raid mobs. I am from Nagafen, trust me if onyx or kraken went to Q town they wouldn't be able to clear VP at all. I dont care what any of the RPer's from that backwater server venekor has to say, raiding is much easier in exile. I am not saying its fair, but the truth is the truth. In all Q guilds you do not have the DPS that FP has, in all FP guilds you do not have the defense (except defilers) that Q guilds have. Something needs to be done, it is destroying pvp servers, since the writ givers have been down pvp has dropped to almost nothing because the factions know they have 0 chance to compete. You cant honestly think that out of all the FP and Q guilds there is only one guild that has enough good players to kill overking? Your talking about hundreds of players and your telling me that they are the only ones committed enough to drop that mob? I know plenty of Q guilds that spend alot of time in those instances and still cant even get the mob to 50%. When ROK came out there was one faction guild on all of the pvp servers to drop woushi, it was 5 days before RoK dropped and about 5 months after exiled guilds had been farming it.

Sorffats

03-13-2008, 05:12 AM

I am going to say this and the dev's better be listening and planning some real fixes ASAP. Normally, I play on a nearly daily basis for about 4 - 5 hours a day. On days that my guild raids, sometimes a bit longer. The majority of this time is spent pvping. In the last week, I have played less than I normally play in a single day. I log in, ask my friends and guild if the writ givers are back up; of course, the answer is no and if I'm not nearly immediately asked to help someone with an epic or do an instance, I promptly camp out.Of the times I did play this week, it has primarily been on an alt just questing and getting a bit of xp for about an hour. I'm not the kind of player that likes to sit around for hours on an alt and play. Generally after about half an hour on an alt, I start getting bored. I don't like lower tier pvp, mainly because it's full of twinks. I don't spend the plat I have on my main to twink my alts because I don't want to spend what could possibly purchase a master I might need on my main.I have 3 accounts. Not that I am some kind of avid EQ2 player, but because I have 2 teenaged sons that also like to play. One of them hasn't logged in at all in the last week. And the other has logged in on one of the pve servers because it's no point to pvp. Pvp is like a drug, once you've experimented with it, pve only just throws you into withdrawal. So even my son that plays some has reduced his play time because of this drastically. Now I question myself, is it worth continuing to pay for 3 accounts when I am absolutely not having any fun? SOE, you don't want to hear the answer I keep giving myself.I'm sure that SOE is not worried about one account (or three, in my case), but there are so many similar posts being made here from people stating the same thing. There is even more people in game saying the same thing that don't post on the forums at all.My advice to the dev's is to do something NOW about the city factions. We are not willing to wait any longer for you to fix your screw up. You didn't have to take out every single writ giver. You only needed to take out the one that was causing the alleged "problem". We players often wonder if the GMs and Devs actually think before they act on anything. If you think the rift between SOE staff and the CONSUMERS (you know, the ones that pay your salary) was big before, you just have absolutely no idea how big it is now. We simply abhor anything to do with SONY period. Hell, I got to the point long ago where I refused to purchase any product made/owned by SONY. Yeah, I still continue to play this game, but that just may very well be the next thing added to my list of boycotted SONY products.It's time for SOE to step up to the plate and start listening to your consumers. Stop sitting around doing absolutely nothing. You can start with assuring us that you are working on the problems. None of you have even stopped in to make a reply to the questions that are being asked of you. What kind of company doesn't try to assure it's consumers that the problems are being worked on? One that is at high risk of LOSING those consumers, that's who.

Sorffats

03-13-2008, 05:20 AM

<cite>Menstor wrote:</cite> <blockquote>So go Exiled and get all the benefits.</blockquote>Nobody should HAVE to go exiled to be able to reap the benefits of this game. That is the problem. To all the exiled guilds out there. I dare any one of you to go to a city faction (either one), put back on your pre-rok raid gear, unequipt the mythicals, and try to progress through RoK raid progression without all the classes. What's wrong? Afraid you can't do it? I say, shut up or put up.

Roald

03-13-2008, 05:46 AM

I think <a href="http://files.filefront.com/Puritypwnswmv/;9802202;/fileinfo.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">THIS</a> video pretty much destroys all these factioned whinners. Skill and co-ordination > gear.

Amphibia

03-13-2008, 07:40 AM

If they're going to allow all classes in both faction, they might as well go all the way. That, and only that, will end the whining and dissatisfaction regarding this.

Amphibia

03-13-2008, 08:20 AM

<cite>Milambers@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think <a rel="nofollow" href="http://files.filefront.com/Puritypwnswmv/;9802202;/fileinfo.html" target="_blank">THIS</a> video pretty much destroys all these factioned whinners. Skill and co-ordination > gear.</blockquote>Haha, I guess there is a reason why people hate them. What you're looking at there is probably the best PvP group on Nagafen right now. They definitely know what they're doing. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />(But I bet most of Purity would love being able to raid with all classes in Qeynos, though... even the group that can hold their own in PvP.)

Ther

03-13-2008, 08:38 AM

MokiChan, I'm not going to quote your response (It would be too much of a mess) but I'll address the issues you mentioned...Firstly, no central, foundation lore was "chucked out the window" at launch. The lore you quoted and cited talks about the nature of the Dark Elf. Fine, but the very idea of a good/evil specific race betraying is centered on the idea that they are abandoning their nature. They are not eternally bound by it, and what you just quoted doesn't so much as imply such an idea. Just because a Dark Elf is born into evil, doesn't mean they can't make a conscious choice to do otherwise. Game lore, from EQ:L to EQ:OA to EQII, is rampant with traitors; from goodies who have fallen into darkness, to redemption of the wicked.Good and evil classes have always been able to group together on PvE, from day 1 of EQ back on March 16, 1999. There has never been any such restriction placed on adventurers in times of relative peace. (The PvE environment)Clearly, it's still too appealing to be an Exile. Living as an outcast should not grant the comfort of a safe haven.I think there are some people here who are being very short sighted. You want your mythicals, I understand that you're frustrated, but what you're talking about is twisting and mutilating the entire rest of the game to suit that end. There is still a game from 1-79, there are players, in all ranges, who care about lore.There is a way to fix this raiding situation, with out turning the game on its head. Don't let the raiding issues blind you to the unreversible, catastrophic damage you would do to this game with such a change.

Raidyen

03-13-2008, 11:51 AM

<cite>Theris@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>MokiChan, I'm not going to quote your response (It would be too much of a mess) but I'll address the issues you mentioned...Firstly, no central, foundation lore was "chucked out the window" at launch. The lore you quoted and cited talks about the nature of the Dark Elf. Fine, but the very idea of a good/evil specific race betraying is centered on the idea that they are abandoning their nature. They are not eternally bound by it, and what you just quoted doesn't so much as imply such an idea. Just because a Dark Elf is born into evil, doesn't mean they can't make a conscious choice to do otherwise. Game lore, from EQ:L to EQ:OA to EQII, is rampant with traitors; from goodies who have fallen into darkness, to redemption of the wicked.Good and evil classes have always been able to group together on PvE, from day 1 of EQ back on March 16, 1999. There has never been any such restriction placed on adventurers in times of relative peace. (The PvE environment)Clearly, it's still too appealing to be an Exile. Living as an outcast should not grant the comfort of a safe haven.I think there are some people here who are being very short sighted. You want your mythicals, I understand that you're frustrated, but what you're talking about is twisting and mutilating the entire rest of the game to suit that end. There is still a game from 1-79, there are players, in all ranges, who care about lore.There is a way to fix this raiding situation, with out turning the game on its head. Don't let the raiding issues blind you to the unreversible, catastrophic damage you would do to this game with such a change.</blockquote>I personally dont think it would be some catastrophic damage to the game by allowing any class any city. What would be catastrophic is if nothing gets done, and exile continues to be the norm for T8.I too am a roleplayer to some extent, despite my opinion on this. I am not a hardcore raider, and never will be. However i understand hardcore raiding as a very large part of T8 play, and currently going exile is where the larger part of this group of people are going. That is what i don't like.You say there is a way to fix the raiding situation, i am all ears. I would love to see some other idea's on the table. As of right now, i don't feel like any other idea is a viable solution, other then allowing all classes all cities. As far as roleplay, i said this before, adding a SK to your city will not change your ability to roleplay. Shun them, don't guild them, don't group them if you choose. Personally i believe this would actually add more roleplay to a game that is honestly lacking. Roleplaying is something an individual does in a game world. Dev's are reponsible for making the game world as fair and as fun as they can, not making the world so you can roleplay the way you like. Roleplay is a fluid thing, and changes with the game lore/mechanics as it needs to. You will still have the ability to roleplay, and play any faction you choose. Currently, raiders don't have that option. If they want to seriously raid, exile is the only real choice they have.

Gaeus

03-13-2008, 12:04 PM

People throw the idea out that both factioned teams should get every class, this is the only way to even the playing field so to speak. Instead of ruining the concept of team versus team, and altering the very makeup of those factioned teams, why not alter Exiles? make exiles only able to group/raid with other Exiles of their own starting city. Problem solved. Exiles would be classified as good/evil Exiles, and they would not get the benefit of having both teams classes to use in raids.

Izzypop

03-13-2008, 12:09 PM

The big thing Qeynos needs is Coercers. Undergeared guards have terrible agro as main tanks, and a guild can't gear up it's undergeared guard unless the guard can hold agro.Freeport needs lots of little things with no one thing being "the" make or break issue. Swash offensive debuffs, shards to go with hearts, exc exc... I don't see 1 big make or break issue for freeport as much as qeynos is lacking coercers.

Gaeus

03-13-2008, 12:16 PM

Well if the trouble is a team has a weakness in raiding due to a lack of a class or two, then simply improve a class on that team with a skill that evens the field. I don't think devs are going to seriously consider dismantling the entire team versus team setup. The easiest thing to do, is to eliminate Exiles ability to raid/group with both teams classes. Make it so that Exiles can only group with Exiles of their own starting city. Then, you have no more imbalance and Exiles lose the advantage of having both classes in one raid.

Raidyen

03-13-2008, 12:56 PM

<cite>Orkist@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote> People throw the idea out that both factioned teams should get every class, this is the only way to even the playing field so to speak. Instead of ruining the concept of team versus team, and altering the very makeup of those factioned teams, why not alter Exiles? make exiles only able to group/raid with other Exiles of their own starting city. Problem solved. Exiles would be classified as good/evil Exiles, and they would not get the benefit of having both teams classes to use in raids.</blockquote>Problem with this idea is you would be upsetting a very large part of the raiding community. People that have been running Raids with both classes would be up in arms if all the sudden they were back to having to raid the hard way. Perhaps if this is how it was from the start, it would work, but at this point you would loose alot more players with a change like this, and thats what this is all about. Making a change that will negatively effect the least amount of players possible, while posatively effecting the game as a whole."edit"Also i dont understand how this would hurt team vs team. You still have your 3 factions, Qeynos vs Freeport, with a handful of exiles caught in the middle. That is the way it should be IMO. "end edit"

Habs444

03-13-2008, 02:00 PM

All classes for all cities puts both cities on a level playing field.Imagine...Freeport vs. Qeynos on the PVP servers, with no need for anyone to be an exile.Wow, Freeport vs. Qeynos...it's EXACTLY WHAT I SIGNED UP FOR ORIGINALLY...what a concept!!!Honestly, if I'd known they were going to add in a 3rd BS exile faction that has access to all classes and can raid higher end content than the cities can, I would never have started on nagafen.The thing is, it's not that I want an easier way to raid, I just want exiles to not have a leg up on the city factions.

Ther

03-13-2008, 03:07 PM

<cite>Habs444 wrote:</cite> <blockquote>...Honestly, if I'd known they were going to add in a 3rd BS exile faction that has access to all classes and can raid higher end content than the cities can, I would never have started on nagafen.The thing is, it's not that I want an easier way to raid, I just want exiles to not have a leg up on the city factions.</blockquote>Now, that part, I could not agree with more. Absolutely, perfectly stated.Here's my issue: I signed up for an epic struggle between good and evil. That's why I left PvE. There was no real sense of good versus evil there. If you allow any class in any city, you wipe out that distinction on PvP as well.At that point, it's just two generic sides: one with dank cities, and one with pretty blue skies. But beyond that? Almost nothing. Almost nothing to make evil distinctively evil, and almost nothing to make good distinctively good.If you do that, any serious roleplayer will have to cease being a serious player. Some say "Oh, just don't group with opposing classes". So you expect a serious roleplayer to have to give up on raiding, abandon groups, leave their guild?PvP servers are the only place where a serious RPer, who cares about good versus evil, doesn't have to give up on being a serious player. But this isn't just about hardcore RPers. If you destroy that distinctiveness, you destroy it for all players. Just because you don't care, doesn't mean no one else does.There are less destructive solutions. You don't like treaties? Fine, I'll give you another...Have PvP merchants sell consumable, limited charge ability shards, that give good/evil specific sub-classes access to comparable, critical abilities of the opposing sub-class.Just like treaties, and unlike allowing any class in any city, it is a change that is reasonably possible to reverse.

Nimbrithil

03-13-2008, 03:11 PM

Nimbrithil

03-13-2008, 03:27 PM

<cite>Theris@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote>I think there are some people here who are being very short sighted. You want your mythicals, I understand that you're frustrated, but what you're talking about is twisting and mutilating the entire rest of the game to suit that end. There is still a game from 1-79, there are players, in all ranges, who care about lore.There is a way to fix this raiding situation, with out turning the game on its head. Don't let the raiding issues blind you to the unreversible, catastrophic damage you would do to this game with such a change.</blockquote>Its not being able to get the Epics, it is that there are people with an unfair advatage getting them and the EXTREMELY unfair advantage that gives those charecters. I am a Conji. Right now the best I can get for a pet is Master 1 (of course given the master spell drop rate that would be like finding the Arc of the Covenant and the Holy Grail all in one but thats not the question at hand) while the Mythical epic gives the Exile that can get it a MASTER 4 pet with master 4 skills. How am I as a City Faction Conji who is SUPPOSED to have the superioer backing of a city behind me supposed to compete with THAT? PVP gear? You mean from the tokens that Sony keeps [Removed for Content] with? Ok so you say there is a way to fix this without turning the game upside down......Pony up or shut up I say. Only other solution I can see is getting RID of Haven which was never intended to be someplace to live anyway, getting RID of Exiles and making everyone play on an even level and take away the unfair rewards the exiles have reaped.

Ther

03-13-2008, 03:34 PM

<cite>Nimbrithil wrote:</cite> <blockquote> Ok so you say there is a way to fix this without turning the game upside down......Pony up or shut up I say.</blockquote><a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=410767&post_id=4587196" target="_blank">Solution 1</a> or <a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=410767&post_id=4591622" target="_blank">Solution 2</a>Edit: Ugh... these forums suck. In case those links don't work for you, just read other my posts in this topic.

Nimbrithil

03-13-2008, 03:52 PM

So then a small number of charecters from both sides will be in high demand and guilds will be lucky to get someone to agree to a temporary cross over. The idea of "evil" races allowed in Qeynos and "good" races being allowed in Freeport but sunned is far better.A necro that must go down to the sewers to find new spells, his trainer meaning. Its also never set well with me that there is no Thieves guild in Qeynos. Anyone really believe that being "evil" would stop the Theives guild from moving into Qeynos for profit? This would be where the Brigand goes.

Raidyen

03-13-2008, 04:02 PM

I have thought about that as well, allowing shards with opposing city ability's. My concern with that idea is the amount of development and testing it would require, as well as the limit of them only being usable in raid zones. Knowing SoE, it would be poorly tested, and poorly implement, assuming they would consider it at all, considering the amount of work it would take to balance those abilities against thier raid content.As far as distinction between good vs evil, again i agree there is little in EQ2. We already have evil race's running around the good cities, we have Paladins and Shadowknights working together in haven, the fact that you can have a Troll paladin or a High elven shadowknight blurs the distinction even further. So i dont understand why not just take the final step here. Perhaps an option could be that you have to be lvl 80 in order to be allowed to switch your city faction but maintain your race. Havent really thought much on that yet, not sure if that would cause problems or not.But whatever we come up with as a solution would have to be something fairly easy for SoE to do, otherwise honestly it wont get done.

Ther

03-13-2008, 04:03 PM

<cite>Theris@Venekor wrote:</cite> <blockquote>You don't like treaties? Fine, I'll give you another...Have PvP merchants sell consumable, limited charge ability shards, that give good/evil specific sub-classes access to comparable, critical abilities of the opposing sub-class.Just like treaties, and unlike allowing any class in any city, it is a change that is reasonably possible to reverse.</blockquote>QFEDroc, do you honestly think allowing any class in any city would be like flipping a switch? The above solution is not only less destructive, it would likely be easier to implement. The abilities are already in the game, it just a matter of making items with an identical effect.

Raidyen

03-13-2008, 04:21 PM

<cite>Theris@Venekor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Theris@Venekor wrote:</cite> <blockquote>You don't like treaties? Fine, I'll give you another...Have PvP merchants sell consumable, limited charge ability shards, that give good/evil specific sub-classes access to comparable, critical abilities of the opposing sub-class.Just like treaties, and unlike allowing any class in any city, it is a change that is reasonably possible to reverse.</blockquote>QFEDroc, do you honestly think allowing any class in any city would be like flipping a switch? The above solution is not only less destructive, it would likely be easier to implement. The abilities are already in the game, it just a matter of making items with an identical effect.</blockquote>Actually yes i do. It would be a matter of adding 8 new trainers to each city, that could be tossed into the sewers fairly easily. Then its just removing the blocks that are in place that prevent a class from being from a faction.Now i will say adding the shards, assuming they could, would make things a bit intersting. You could have a 3rd or 4th paladin that you wouldnt normally take on a raid buy up some defiler shards, allowing him to fill that debuffing role, while still gaining the benefits of the paladin, like amends. I would think this would change how raids are done dramaticly, creating some really unique combonations of classes/abilities that werent possible before. Im not sure SoE would be ok with that.

MokiCh

03-13-2008, 08:14 PM

Nobody in their right mind would do this shard business unless all the new abilities you get make your normal ones unusable. Imagine a Paladin buying an SK item. Now they get amends, heals, rez, death march, lifetaps, etc. Or how about a Templar buying Inquisitor items. Assassins buying Ranger items? Stand in the sweet spot all day long and throw out assassin CA's between your bow attacks? Items like that would completely wreck class balance and require a fundamental redesigning of all the raid encounters in the game, which just isn't going to happen.Now, assuming that any new abilities you get from these items do supersede your regular class abilities, what level are the new skills? If all you get is adept 1's you might as well not waste your money. If it's masters, screw buying masters for your own class, just have everyone buy up the items for their counterpart and have a fully mastered raid. There are far too many variables and too much potential for overpoweredness or exploiting to make an idea like this viable.What we could do is make the rules for grouping/guilding/raiding the same as the blue servers and leave everything else the same. You still can't be a paladin in freeport, but you can group with freeport players if that's what you want to do. Players can attack anyone they want, regardless of alignment, provided they're within the appropriate level range. This would be fairly easy to implement because all you would have to do is remove the blocks on grouping and remove the rule that forces your language to always be antonican/lucanic/argot. Easy. That way raiders can have all classes to raid with, and roleplayers can rest assured that all they will be seeing is the perfectly logical and understandable troll templars et al.