ITS OVER

[pcwpcw]

Its GAME OVER for my coercer. Today my guild decided to replace my spot in the MT grp with an illusionist and I am not needed in the other 3 grps too. In other words theres no place for me in raid  I am just trash. Do the devs even read these posts? 3 Years of hoping and nothings changed it only got worse and worse. Goodbye fellows.Good luck with the trying.

[Obsidiann]

that's a pretty bad decision on your guild's part.get a better guild?

[ChodeNode1]

What was the reason they chose the illusionist?

[Signal9]

<p>Good luck wherever you land.</p><p>Coercer -another.</p>

[Ursanne]

<p>Sorry to hear that your Coercer was replaced and your guild doesn't have another spot for you in the raid.  I'm surprised to hear that an Illusionist gets the nod over you in the MT, but the bottom line is that Coercers aren't especially valuable now.</p><p>Good luck finding another guild or betraying to continue raiding.</p>

[Rijacki]

<cite>Ursanne wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I'm surprised to hear that an Illusionist gets the nod over you in the MT, but the bottom line is that Coercers aren't especially valuable now.</p></blockquote>Illusionist with mythic gets group haste.  Swashie with mythic gets an increase to hate transfer.  Coercer gets mental damage added to taunts, a power use reduction proc that doesn't proc, and a group mana flow when power regen gear is as common as rain in Seattle.A mythic illusionist + a mythic swashie probably produce more hate for the MT than the coercer's magnify and transfer that hasn't had an improved version since level 52. So why the surprise?

[shogun007]

<cite>Obsidiann wrote:</cite><blockquote>that's a pretty bad decision on your guild's part.get a better guild?</blockquote>I have to agree with Obsidiann . Illusionist has no right to be an MT group over coercer. Who cares about attack speed in MT group ? Tank? Healers? I see why Illusionists being OP now in terms of damage and better dps buffs but this is not the case . I know this - If my guild will ask me to step down for Illusionist i get spot in another raiding guild despite nerfs there guilds still looking for coercer .

[pcwpcw]

k theres 4 illusionists in the guild and 1 coercer which is me. My mana regen capability is redundant with the dizok belt that the 3 priests are wearing in the MT grp. My average DPS parse is about 1.5k the illusionists are double that and now their hsate got 10% db atk and free pet and can tandem up to 4-5 person raidwide from each illusionist so i am not needed anymore. Time compression is better than coercive healing. Illusory arm and Split personality from the illusionists AA line gives the MT very nice DPS boost and overall aggro. Raidwide everyone is benefiting more from the extra buffs and extra DPS

[Rijacki]

<cite>shogun007 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Obsidiann wrote:</cite><blockquote>that's a pretty bad decision on your guild's part.get a better guild?</blockquote>I have to agree with Obsidiann . Illusionist has no right to be an MT group over coercer. Who cares about attack speed in MT group ? Tank? Healers? I see why Illusionists being OP now in terms of damage and better dps buffs but this is not the case . I know this - If my guild will ask me to step down for Illusionist i get spot in another raiding guild despite nerfs there guilds still looking for coercer .</blockquote>The ones seeking coercers are either single alignment that can't have illusionists (i.e. PvP servers) or are not even close to getting mythics or the ubah belt of power prociness (i.e. still in the first two rungs of the raid progression).  Beyond that, a coercer will only be better for the raid if he betrays.The heal crit achievement is an enchanter line.  Time Compression vs Coercive Healing, as someone else said, TC wins.  The two things a coercer brings to the MT group, superior power regen and hate, that a non-mythic illusionist can't or isn't better for are completely negated by a raid drop (that belt) and the illusionist mythic + the swashie mythic.

[shogun007]

Who needs haste in MT group? Tank or healers? Illusionists buffs DPS oriented and dps oriented only . They dont have any buffs to help healer or tank. They gotten their group wide haste buff on their mythical to help melee dps group , because most of their buffs are for casters . We all know that Arm is single target spell it can be cast on olny one person. Time Comp is good to cast on anyone yes u can put it on tank , healer , whatever.We get superior power to help healers in MT group if they OOP - Raidwipe. Yes we are lacking in other groups . My guild has Coercer in MT group already . But being only coercer and getting replaced by Illusionist in MT group is [I cannot control my vocabulary] up. I agree on one thing only here , they nerfed solo damage ( who cares about solo damage ?) and gave Illusionists pet with myth , that adds dps to that already OPed class. Anyway Coercers need a buff , but we far from extinction.  The only thing i dont like is rumors that we are broken , and some Illusionist [I cannot control my vocabulary] i heard on flames Was talking [I cannot control my vocabulary] about our class stating that Sony should remove us from game . I am on the verge of closing eq2 account ,for 2 years i have had  enough [I cannot control my vocabulary] with  class balancing . I rolled class that had Risk Vs Reward Motto , not this ! Yes i am nervous and no u cant have my stuff !! Peace !

[Lleinen]

<p>It all comes down to this.  If your tank can hold aggro with an illusionist and not you, then obviously the Illusionist is a better choice.  They bring more to a raid than a coercer atm.</p><p>Dont even try to argue this...its futile.</p>

[Signal9]

<cite>Ursanne wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Sorry to hear that your Coercer was replaced and your guild doesn't have another spot for you in the raid.  I'm surprised to hear that an Illusionist gets the nod over you in the MT, but the bottom line is that Coercers aren't especially valuable now.</p><p>Good luck finding another guild or betraying to continue raiding.</p></blockquote>Don't be surprised.  In the last week, I've been bumped from MT group, and replaced with a Swashy/Dirge combo.  I now have a spot in the MA/OT group, but only until they find more dirges on Mistmoore.

[madha]

<p>Im so tiered of people complaining about our inability to perform in raids. </p><p>I took a break for a month and got phone calls to come back because my hate drop and hate buff spell where missed.  </p><p>Sure our buffs need a boost, and you never ever need more then 1 coercer.  But 15% -17% trasnfer is not a week buff sure the number looks small, but why then am i the 2nd person to die after the tank, even with a MA up there taunting the mob.  We generate a ton of hidden agro, more then every other class that feeds agro. </p><p>We have a broken dps mechanic plain and simple and getting booted out of raid because you cant dps higher then a dps class is [Removed for Content].  And double attack on a  MT might be a bad idea when Epics can repost dmg to the tank.  Heck most fights tanks are stuned stifled feared or otherwise incapable of dps.</p><p>Pardon my typing i went to public school.</p>

[Illine]

<p>I'm sorry but coercive healing is good. You put that on a shaman and it's pure improvement. While TC would make him use more mana in the end for the same amount of ward.</p><p>The spell that obliges to target a tnak is great to on mem wipe mobs, still it's bugged and it mem wipe the mob when I cast it :s.</p><p> Mana ward could be good I sometimes use it. It's situationnal but usefull on mt group, paired with channel. Channel is great now that it adds power.</p><p>Dps is better on a MT than haste.</p><p> On aggro boost should be improved on T7 and T8 but well.</p><p> We have utility ... we just don't have dps ... make our charm conc slot free on our epic ... like illu's pet ... that could be great ... a charmed pet on raid, great dps <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> (even though the end wisdom line spell would become even more useless :p but who cares? <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />)</p>

[Calain80]

<cite>madhatr wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>And double attack on a  MT might be a bad idea when Epics can repost dmg to the tank.  Heck most fights tanks are stuned stifled feared or otherwise incapable of dps.</p></blockquote>Unless he is a Guard, who will be MT mostly. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />My Coercer is only low level, but I can already feel the pain of this class:- Recative damage is useless in Raids and mostly useless in Groups (Knowledge from my Inquisitor)- If you stun the mob, reactive damage gets even more useless- Our DPS buff would be great but only ends up being worth almost nothing due to diminishing returns.- Mana is a much lower issue now with the right proc gear.- Damage proc gear does not help us as much as it could as it only procs off attacks and not of hostile spells and many of our spells do not count as attacks.Solo we are still viable.In Groups we will also be of good use (for CC and stun locking)But in Raids Coercer have a hard time. I hope it would not be so, but it is.Coercer should get the boost they deserve!

[Dravendar]

<cite>madhatr wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Im so tiered of people complaining about our inability to perform in raids. </p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">It is no mystery that compared to our counterpart, we are seriously lacking in our raid ability.  If you don't see this, you have been under a rock for a long time. </span>  </p><p>I took a break for a month and got phone calls to come back because my hate drop and hate buff spell where missed.  </p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Your tank and/or swash is/are doing a horrible job. </span></p><p>Sure our buffs need a boost, and you never ever need more then 1 coercer.  But 15% -17% trasnfer is not a week buff sure the number looks small, but why then am i the 2nd person to die after the tank, even with a MA up there taunting the mob.  We generate a ton of hidden agro, more then every other class that feeds agro. </p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">A good tank can hold 60k+ raid DPS w/o any aggro help from a coercer. </span></p><p>And double attack on a  MT might be a bad idea when Epics can repost dmg to the tank.  Heck most fights tanks are stuned stifled feared or otherwise incapable of dps.</p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Any higher tier raid guild will have their mythical weapons and guardians have the bonus of being immune to ripostes, thus negating any penalty for increased haste.  Increased haste and double attack are huge bonuses to a guardian's aggro holding and DPS ability...more valuable than our hate buff.  </span></p></blockquote>

[Signal9]

<cite>Dravendar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Im so tiered of people complaining about our inability to perform in raids. </p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">It is no mystery that compared to our counterpart, we are seriously lacking in our raid ability.  If you don't see this, you have been under a rock for a long time. </span>  </p><p>I took a break for a month and got phone calls to come back because my hate drop and hate buff spell where missed.  </p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Your tank and/or swash is/are doing a horrible job. </span></p><p>Sure our buffs need a boost, and you never ever need more then 1 coercer.  But 15% -17% trasnfer is not a week buff sure the number looks small, but why then am i the 2nd person to die after the tank, even with a MA up there taunting the mob.  We generate a ton of hidden agro, more then every other class that feeds agro. </p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">A good tank can hold 60k+ raid DPS w/o any aggro help from a coercer. </span></p><p>And double attack on a  MT might be a bad idea when Epics can repost dmg to the tank.  Heck most fights tanks are stuned stifled feared or otherwise incapable of dps.</p><p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Any higher tier raid guild will have their mythical weapons and guardians have the bonus of being immune to ripostes, thus negating any penalty for increased haste.  Increased haste and double attack are huge bonuses to a guardian's aggro holding and DPS ability...more valuable than our hate buff.  </span></p></blockquote></blockquote>Concurr

[iceriven2]

coercers have fallen into the ranks of the fighters, if your guild has one and he/she wants to raid, they may bring them along but if they dont come...even better... leat idont have to worry about lvling mine past 70... he is no longer needed for anything.

[Illine]

<cite>Dravendar wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>madhatr wrote:</cite><blockquote>And double attack on a  MT might be a bad idea when Epics can repost dmg to the tank.  Heck most fights tanks are stuned stifled feared or otherwise incapable of dps. <p><span style="color: #ffff00;">Any higher tier raid guild will have their mythical weapons and guardians have the bonus of being immune to ripostes, thus negating any penalty for increased haste.  Increased haste and double attack are huge bonuses to a guardian's aggro holding and DPS ability...more valuable than our hate buff.  </span></p></blockquote></blockquote>not everybody has their epic yet, so for now on, we still have some use and can hope for improvements.

[chris93699]

<p>i repeadiately see updates for other classes on various patch notes,</p><p>rarely i see coercer and half the time when i do its antoher nerf.</p><p> /tell devs fix it soon , honestly i doubt other than my addiction to eq i will support blue ray or any other sony products with that in my mind and i wouldn;t be suprised if other peole didnt; as well.   Maybe your higher ups would be more interested in hearing how this might affect consumer confidence?  Its a easy enough fix to make why so sluggish?</p>

[Yarginis]

<cite>pcwpcw wrote:</cite><blockquote>Its GAME OVER for my coercer. Today my guild decided to replace my spot in the MT grp with an illusionist and I am not needed in the other 3 grps too. In other words theres no place for me in raid  I am just trash. Do the devs even read these posts? 3 Years of hoping and nothings changed it only got worse and worse. Goodbye fellows.Good luck with the trying. </blockquote>Before I start, I'm not trying to argue that Coercers are fine & don't need serious buffing because it's painfully obvious they do.With that said your raid leader is still an idiot. I was actually having a discussion about this just last night with our MT because the Coercer said he was going to be going semi-inactive due to Rl reasons. I was actually playing the part of arguing that it's ok, we'll be fine we have a swash we could put there, or 3 Ilus 1 of which could fill in. (I wasn't arguing Coercers weren't needed mind you, just that it's not a problem severe enough we'd need to go recruit over) However, no matter what I argued his perspective as the MT remained that he still would much prefer a Coercer, and in fact that if need be he'd like one of us (Ilus) to betray to Coercer.From his PoV the main issues were;A: Coercer seems to give him much more consistent aggro generation than he gets when we have the Swashy in there.B: The area that a Coercer buffs his DPS (DPS mod) is much more useful due to where his current caps are than Haste & double attack from an Ilus would.Tonight we raided about the first 2 hours or so without the Coercer before he made it on, and generally what I noticed tended to back up what the tanks said. He can hit well over 100 haste mod in raid setup, & a 94% double attack (Therefore the gain from am Ilus & Rapidity & IA would be negligible), while without a Coercer his DPS mod only sitting in the 60's. This right here negates the possible advantage to putting an Ilus in the MT group over a Coercer (as your raid did) As to the Swashy vs Coercer hate gain, thats really more of just a personal feel thing I guess, but his feeling is that he hold aggro better with the Coercer (Also remember with the Swashy he's losing the DPS mob but not even gaining the Haste/DA he would with an Ilus) & as he is the MT as well as a friend on mine I have no reason to dispute this if it's what he saysThis is coming from the perspective of a fully Mythical'd raid force btw, & the MT in question frequently tops 4k, and has on several occasions topped 4.5k in the lower raid zones when melee hit-rates aren't fubbard. Again, I'm not at all using this to argue against Coercer fixes, I am also good friends with the Coercer of mention & I hear from (& mock because of) him frequently on how dire the situation for you guys is in certain areas. (Mainly you dps vs raid desirability in comparison to that on most other classes notably Ilus) You guys do need some serious fixing in these areas without a doubt, but even so a Coercer is certainly better than an Ilus in the MT group where you have the choice from the MT's PoV, & at least from our MT's perspective is more reliable for aggro than a Swashy as well. (Or at least he kept claiming tonight when our Assassin kept parsing 9k+ and ripping aggro on VP trash) <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[RingleToo]

<cite>Alexiiya@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>...</cite>so a Coercer is certainly better than an Ilus in the MT group where you have the choice from the MT's PoV, & at least from our MT's perspective is more reliable for aggro than a Swashy as well. (Or at least he kept claiming tonight when our Assassin kept parsing 9k+ and ripping aggro on VP trash) <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>From a Swashbuckler perspective (and for some reason I do have lower level coercer alt):</p><p>Just curious, how is a coercer aggro/hate transfer more reliable then a swashbuckler. I'm curious as to the reasoning behind that. And I'm not sure what the assassin parsing 9k has to do with it. (All things being comparable - gear, ability, etc. - the assassin should out dps the swashy). If it's a question of having an assassin/swashy or assassin/coercer in mt group, from the raids I've been on it seems like assassin/swashy would be better. Just wondering.</p>

[Trepan]

It could be that the coercer doesn't have to joust like a swashie does against AoE happy mobs.  They can stay at range and throw spells and even if they do joust, they can joust in and drop their multi triggere reactives and bail out of range - the tank would still get agro transfer on those triggers firing.Just supposition.

[Aule]

<p>We also have a significant amount of hate being generated from non-DPS related activity.  </p><p>In the prior mentioned example though it's probably the net gain the MT gets from hitting the 50% ceiling on aggro generation along with the DPS mod buff and then the 17% hate transfer.  Especially as his DPS mod is only in the 60's he's really maximizing the benefit he gets from the Coercer.</p>

[Yarginis]

<cite>RingleToo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Alexiiya@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>...</cite>so a Coercer is certainly better than an Ilus in the MT group where you have the choice from the MT's PoV, & at least from our MT's perspective is more reliable for aggro than a Swashy as well. (Or at least he kept claiming tonight when our Assassin kept parsing 9k+ and ripping aggro on VP trash) <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>From a Swashbuckler perspective (and for some reason I do have lower level coercer alt):</p><p>Just curious, how is a coercer aggro/hate transfer more reliable then a swashbuckler. I'm curious as to the reasoning behind that. And I'm not sure what the assassin parsing 9k has to do with it. (All things being comparable - gear, ability, etc. - the assassin should out dps the swashy). If it's a question of having an assassin/swashy or assassin/coercer in mt group, from the raids I've been on it seems like assassin/swashy would be better. Just wondering.</p></blockquote>From how he's made it sound the Coercer's aggro level he can just count on more, where the Swashy really can vary greatly from fight to fight. Also with the improved personal DPS the Coercer gives him as well. (& remember that at capped +hate gain at 50% for every 100dps he gains it's actually an effective +150dps of hate, while the high aggro classes are de-hated to a much lower ratio, so increased personal dps is more beneficial from a hate gain perspective.The Assassin thing was just thrown in there to show the lvls of dps where he starts to have trouble with the Swashy. It seems like between the assassins 8-9k+ parses or the wizzy's big spell DA bursts the Swashy just doesn't lock the mob to him as well. As for the Assassin as a transfer, the main issue there is that the Assassin benefits much better from a Mage group with lots of +haste from a Troub + Ilus than the tank group that is +dps heavy due to his self buffs, resulting in a much lower output from him in the tank group. (& with CoB being raidwide with dirge mythical he's able to maintain this dirge benefit even in the mage group)

[RingleToo]

<cite>Alexiiya@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>RingleToo wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Alexiiya@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>...</cite>so a Coercer is certainly better than an Ilus in the MT group where you have the choice from the MT's PoV, & at least from our MT's perspective is more reliable for aggro than a Swashy as well. (Or at least he kept claiming tonight when our Assassin kept parsing 9k+ and ripping aggro on VP trash) <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15" /></blockquote><p>From a Swashbuckler perspective (and for some reason I do have lower level coercer alt):</p><p>Just curious, how is a coercer aggro/hate transfer more reliable then a swashbuckler. I'm curious as to the reasoning behind that. And I'm not sure what the assassin parsing 9k has to do with it. (All things being comparable - gear, ability, etc. - the assassin should out dps the swashy). If it's a question of having an assassin/swashy or assassin/coercer in mt group, from the raids I've been on it seems like assassin/swashy would be better. Just wondering.</p></blockquote>From how he's made it sound the Coercer's aggro level he can just count on more, where the Swashy really can vary greatly from fight to fight. Also with the improved personal DPS the Coercer gives him as well. (& remember that at capped +hate gain at 50% for every 100dps he gains it's actually an effective +150dps of hate, while the high aggro classes are de-hated to a much lower ratio, so increased personal dps is more beneficial from a hate gain perspective.The Assassin thing was just thrown in there to show the lvls of dps where he starts to have trouble with the Swashy. It seems like between the assassins 8-9k+ parses or the wizzy's big spell DA bursts the Swashy just doesn't lock the mob to him as well. As for the Assassin as a transfer, the main issue there is that the Assassin benefits much better from a Mage group with lots of +haste from a Troub + Ilus than the tank group that is +dps heavy due to his self buffs, resulting in a much lower output from him in the tank group. (& with CoB being raidwide with dirge mythical he's able to maintain this dirge benefit even in the mage group)</blockquote><p>Well, not sure I followed "the high aggro classes are de-hated" or why a tanks personal dps is more beneficial - might have gone over my head lol But the Swashy really shouldn't vary much from fight to fight - the Assassin maybe but not the Swashy. The advantage the Assassin has is he can generate some Huge burst damage (would love to have that one back attack), but the re-use timer on the big attacks is relatively slow. </p><p>The advantage the Swashy has is that he can put out a lot of damage over a sustained period of time from fight to fight. Then throw in a dirge, and there's a marked increase in dps. A Swashy should be able to generate a lot of consistent hate over the course of a fight. I know that if I don't have that hate transfer up, I'm going to steal aggro just about every fight, and I went down the intelligent line with all of it's de-aggro benefits. </p><p>Very interesting food for thought, though. Maybe I won't get rid of my coercer <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /> </p>

[Aule]

These aren't 100% accurate numbers since I'm at work, but think of it this way.Non mythical for example numbers:Without coercerTank DPS 2000Tank hate mod 34% (dirge)Swashie DPS 4000Swashie Hate xfer 30% (don't recall exact number offhand)The tank is doing 2k himself, and generating 34% more so 2000 * 1.34 = 2680.  4000 * 0.3 = 1200 so the tank is now at 3880 DPS from hate and hate transfer, there's a little more in there because of non-dps hate accumulation too.With coercerTank DPS 2500 (gained 88 dps mod)Tank hate mod 50% (dirge and coercer)Coercer DPS 2000Coercer Hate xfer (17%)Tank generates 2500 * 1.50 = 3750.  2000 * 0.17 = 340.  So the tank is now at 3990 DPS from hate and hate transfer.  Coercers also generate a tremendous amount of non-dps related hate accumulation, so that hate stream is going to be a bit higher than that.  Also if the tank is at 50 or 60 dps mod, which is entirely possible for a lower tier raiding guild tank, he's quite likely to get a larger boost than only 500 dps in this scenario.This example breaks down if your guild coercer sucks and does 400 dps thinking that their job is to buff heal crit % and keep everybody topped off on mana.