Betrayal suggestion [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

Thunderthyze

03-03-2008, 08:49 PM

This has probably been brought up before but has it ever been suggested to broaden the whole concept of betrayal so that you can betray to ANY class....alignment permitting obviously?Why is that you can only betray from say a monk to a bruiser (or vice versa) or from a monk back to a monk if you so desire? Many of us have crafters that we want to retain but want neither the of the adventure classes available. SOE have already relaxed this somewhat draconian A/B, Good/Evil character alignment by grouping assassins in with swashies and brigands while leaving rangers, paladins and shadowknights in individual groups in the character creation screen (for whatever reason).I for one am pretty bored with my illusionist but don't really want to swap to coercer either, yet have to retain the character because he's my sage. Why not have him betray to, say, a guardian? Incorporating this change would have a number of beneficial effects for SOE.1. Money sinks. All those spell/gear upgrades needed.2. Maybe a lessening of the cries to increase the number of character slots.As well as benefits for us:a. Wider choice of characters available to usb. More demand for crafted gear and spellsc. No reason to delete tradeskillers when you absolutely, positively HAVE to get rid of that Troubie/Dirge to free up roster space.

Alienor

03-04-2008, 05:16 AM

I really do not see why I have to change class at all after betrayal (mainly because I do not want to pay all the spell upgrades again <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)

phoenixshard

03-04-2008, 10:37 AM

<cite>Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>This has probably been brought up before but has it ever been suggested to broaden the whole concept of betrayal so that you can betray to ANY class....alignment permitting obviously?Biggest reason I can think of is because you keep your level. An ogre that has trained his entire life to be a shadowknight would have no idea on how to perform as a conjurer for example. Its also been said by devs that the character class is tied too heavily to the coding in the game to be changed like that.Why is that you can only betray from say a monk to a bruiser (or vice versa) or from a monk back to a monk if you so desire? Many of us have crafters that we want to retain but want neither the of the adventure classes available. SOE have already relaxed this somewhat draconian A/B, Good/Evil character alignment by grouping assassins in with swashies and brigands while leaving rangers, paladins and shadowknights in individual groups in the character creation screen (for whatever reason).You still can't betray an assassin to a swashbuckler, only a ranger. See above for devs comments on this.I for one am pretty bored with my illusionist but don't really want to swap to coercer either, yet have to retain the character because he's my sage. Why not have him betray to, say, a guardian? Game mechanics and in game terms your illusionist would have no idea on the workings of a guardian. To put it in a RL example, a doctor decides he wants to be a lawyer, you really think he's going to know the ins and outs of the legal field?Incorporating this change would have a number of beneficial effects for SOE.1. Money sinks. All those spell/gear upgrades needed.You already do that anyway if you betray, all spells and ca's are reset to app1.2. Maybe a lessening of the cries to increase the number of character slots.No it wouldn't, people would still want alts for the sake of playing something different. You want 1 character that can do all the classes available, you may want to check out FF XI, it has that.As well as benefits for us:a. Wider choice of characters available to usThat's already there, thats what alts are for.b. More demand for crafted gear and spellsThe demand is already there with rollilng up alts.c. No reason to delete tradeskillers when you absolutely, positively HAVE to get rid of that Troubie/Dirge to free up roster space.Then think about what you want to have as an adventurer and a crafter before you create the character.</blockquote>

Freliant

03-04-2008, 10:42 AM

What you are suggesting is a class respec, and that is not possible under the current game build. The reason that you can change from monk to bruiser is because this game was designed with archtypees in mind. Monks and bruisers are essentially the same class: brawlers. That means that you are just getting a different subset of skills from the brawler tree, NOT that you are getting a completely new class.As for the other points... meh. Moot since its not possible to swap. Anyways, just make a new guardian and level him up. Keep your sage.. no one is forcing you to delete teh illusionist.

Effie

03-04-2008, 12:55 PM

I would love to be able to reset my adventure class and level on a few of my tradeskillers but this is pretty much a dead horse that has been beaten to death.If they give us this option in the future I will be ecstatic... but I won't hold my breath.

Cadori Seraphim

03-04-2008, 01:38 PM

<cite>phoenixshard wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>This has probably been brought up before but has it ever been suggested to broaden the whole concept of betrayal so that you can betray to ANY class....alignment permitting obviously?Biggest reason I can think of is because you keep your level. An ogre that has trained his entire life to be a shadowknight would have no idea on how to perform as a conjurer for example. Its also been said by devs that the character class is tied too heavily to the coding in the game to be changed like that.As it was reminded to me in another post, nothing is set in stone. Just because the Devs say they will not or can not do something that doesnt mean in the future that they wont change their minds. Its happened numerous times already in eq2.Why is that you can only betray from say a monk to a bruiser (or vice versa) or from a monk back to a monk if you so desire? Many of us have crafters that we want to retain but want neither the of the adventure classes available. SOE have already relaxed this somewhat draconian A/B, Good/Evil character alignment by grouping assassins in with swashies and brigands while leaving rangers, paladins and shadowknights in individual groups in the character creation screen (for whatever reason).You still can't betray an assassin to a swashbuckler, only a ranger. See above for devs comments on this.I for one am pretty bored with my illusionist but don't really want to swap to coercer either, yet have to retain the character because he's my sage. Why not have him betray to, say, a guardian? Game mechanics and in game terms your illusionist would have no idea on the workings of a guardian. To put it in a RL example, a doctor decides he wants to be a lawyer, you really think he's going to know the ins and outs of the legal field?Using RL examples to compare something in a *game* is ridiculous at best. This is a game, lets keep the topic in line with that.Incorporating this change would have a number of beneficial effects for SOE.1. Money sinks. All those spell/gear upgrades needed.You already do that anyway if you betray, all spells and ca's are reset to app1.2. Maybe a lessening of the cries to increase the number of character slots.No it wouldn't, people would still want alts for the sake of playing something different. You want 1 character that can do all the classes available, you may want to check out FF XI, it has that.I am inclined to agree with you, but at the same time I see the OPs point.. and it *may* just alleviate *some* of the cries.As well as benefits for us:a. Wider choice of characters available to usThat's already there, thats what alts are for.b. More demand for crafted gear and spellsThe demand is already there with rollilng up alts.c. No reason to delete tradeskillers when you absolutely, positively HAVE to get rid of that Troubie/Dirge to free up roster space.Then think about what you want to have as an adventurer and a crafter before you create the character.Who are you to say the OP (or anyone for that matter) didnt think about what he wanted to make before he made it? People get bored down the road as the *years* go by. I am not 100% for this idea, but its not a crappy one. Am sort of on the middle line atm.</blockquote></blockquote>

phoenixshard

03-04-2008, 04:28 PM

<cite>Sidori@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>phoenixshard wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>This has probably been brought up before but has it ever been suggested to broaden the whole concept of betrayal so that you can betray to ANY class....alignment permitting obviously?Biggest reason I can think of is because you keep your level. An ogre that has trained his entire life to be a shadowknight would have no idea on how to perform as a conjurer for example. Its also been said by devs that the character class is tied too heavily to the coding in the game to be changed like that.As it was reminded to me in another post, nothing is set in stone. Just because the Devs say they will not or can not do something that doesnt mean in the future that they wont change their minds. Its happened numerous times already in eq2.It hasn't happened to something that was tied so heavily to what apparently part of the game engine from the way that the devs have described it. When something is tied so heavily to the heart of the game itself such as character class and what it entails with the db and all other coding, I hightly doubt that it would even be considered. I don't think that SOE would want another NGE on their hands.Why is that you can only betray from say a monk to a bruiser (or vice versa) or from a monk back to a monk if you so desire? Many of us have crafters that we want to retain but want neither the of the adventure classes available. SOE have already relaxed this somewhat draconian A/B, Good/Evil character alignment by grouping assassins in with swashies and brigands while leaving rangers, paladins and shadowknights in individual groups in the character creation screen (for whatever reason).You still can't betray an assassin to a swashbuckler, only a ranger. See above for devs comments on this.I for one am pretty bored with my illusionist but don't really want to swap to coercer either, yet have to retain the character because he's my sage. Why not have him betray to, say, a guardian? Game mechanics and in game terms your illusionist would have no idea on the workings of a guardian. To put it in a RL example, a doctor decides he wants to be a lawyer, you really think he's going to know the ins and outs of the legal field?Using RL examples to compare something in a *game* is ridiculous at best. This is a game, lets keep the topic in line with that.Fine then, I'll use game mechanics to give the example. The big strong ogre warrior isn't going to have the intellligence it would take to comprehend the scrolls and tomes that the mage would require, just like the brainy erudite mage isn't going to have the strength and stamina it would take to wear the plate armor, shield, and swing the sword to know how to take the blows and then get past the defense of that undead knight deep in the dungeon you are exploring.Incorporating this change would have a number of beneficial effects for SOE.1. Money sinks. All those spell/gear upgrades needed.You already do that anyway if you betray, all spells and ca's are reset to app1.2. Maybe a lessening of the cries to increase the number of character slots.No it wouldn't, people would still want alts for the sake of playing something different. You want 1 character that can do all the classes available, you may want to check out FF XI, it has that.I am inclined to agree with you, but at the same time I see the OPs point.. and it *may* just alleviate *some* of the cries.As well as benefits for us:a. Wider choice of characters available to usThat's already there, thats what alts are for.b. More demand for crafted gear and spellsThe demand is already there with rollilng up alts.c. No reason to delete tradeskillers when you absolutely, positively HAVE to get rid of that Troubie/Dirge to free up roster space.Then think about what you want to have as an adventurer and a crafter before you create the character.Who are you to say the OP (or anyone for that matter) didnt think about what he wanted to make before he made it? People get bored down the road as the *years* go by. I'm not telling the OP or anyone but something that should be common sense to you. If you are going to invest the time and energy to bring up a character, you should make sure its what you like before you put the energy in them to raise them to high level in either crafting or adventuring. If not, oh well, you mde that decision, either live with it and keep the character or delete it and start over.I am not 100% for this idea, but its not a crappy one. Am sort of on the middle line atm.</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>

Cadori Seraphim

03-04-2008, 04:37 PM

Quoting is getting to long but here are my rebuttlesAs far as the engine and such, things can change regardless.. especially as technology advances.. nothing is set in stone.It doesn't matter what race you are, what matters is the capability of the human behind the toon that is relearning the class. When I betrayed to warlock at lvl 75 I was utterly confused and had to relearn my spell casting order and what spells did what. Its *not* that hard to do.There would be huge drawbacks in the OPs idea, such as a warlock betraying to guard. I couldn't use my armor.. so I would have a huge expense in gearing up as well as the loss of adept 3 and master spells.But regardless its the ability of the human to adapt to the new class. And its not that hard to do at all. Anyone with common sense could easily pull it off.Lastly, yes you are telling people they basically didn't think before they chose a character. I have 4 70+ toons.. that I IMMENSELY enjoyed lvling up to max and into ROK. Two of them have made 80 now.But when you get to 80.. and all you have to do is raid.. the gameplay changes.. and sometimes what you thought was a very good choice turns up to be so so and you want to change. This doesnt mean you did not thoroughly think about the class you wanted to be and it also doesnt mean you didnt have fun the entire 80 lvls.Again, I am on the line about this. On some points I disagree with the idea, on others I agree.

phoenixshard

03-04-2008, 04:53 PM

<cite>Sidori@Crushbone wrote:</cite><blockquote>Quoting is getting to long but here are my rebuttlesAs far as the engine and such, things can change regardless.. especially as technology advances.. nothing is set in stone.It doesn't matter what race you are, what matters is the capability of the human behind the toon that is relearning the class. When I betrayed to warlock at lvl 75 I was utterly confused and had to relearn my spell casting order and what spells did what. Its *not* that hard to do.There would be huge drawbacks in the OPs idea, such as a warlock betraying to guard. I couldn't use my armor.. so I would have a huge expense in gearing up as well as the loss of adept 3 and master spells.But regardless its the ability of the human to adapt to the new class. And its not that hard to do at all. Anyone with common sense could easily pull it off.Lastly, yes you are telling people they basically didn't think before they chose a character. I have 4 70+ toons.. that I IMMENSELY enjoyed lvling up to max and into ROK. Two of them have made 80 now.But when you get to 80.. and all you have to do is raid.. the gameplay changes.. and sometimes what you thought was a very good choice turns up to be so so and you want to change. This doesnt mean you did not thoroughly think about the class you wanted to be and it also doesnt mean you didnt have fun the entire 80 lvls.Again, I am on the line about this. On some points I disagree with the idea, on others I agree.</blockquote>Sure things can change, watch how fast EQ2 would become a ghost town if they broke down the entire system and replaced it with something else totally different.It does matter for the sake of the character you've been working on. How effective is that level 70 illusionist that suddenly becomes a guardian going to be when his intelligence stays at 300+ and his strenght remains at 55, if even that? His power pool is going to be low, as well as his hit points because that stamina didn't go up either. When he puts on that armor, he's going to suddenly be encumbered and can't move but at 3/4 speed if even that. If you aren't wearing the plate, who is going to want to adventure with you? And no you won't know how to play a class effective and personally I really don't want to be in the middle of a high level dungeon with someone that goes, you know yesterday, this character was a 70th level illusionist, now lets go. No thank you at all on that one.Thats good that you enjoyed levelling them that high and on up to 80, regardless of whether you have done all that or not, if you think the class you are choosing is not going to be right for what you want to do at endgame or will not be desirable on raids or such, guess what, you should have made that as part of your character class choice when you created the character. Just because you suddenly don't enjoy the endgame content because you can't get into raids, that is the result of the decision you made with that character, so again, I will say make sure it is a character that you will be happy if you plan on keeping it. That should be common sense and SOE should not implement a change that will make one person happy, but then has the potential of making the experience that others have when they group with that character that knows nothing about their new class bad because they wiped due to poor tanking/healing/DPS or whatever.

Nefania

03-04-2008, 09:24 PM

<cite></cite>Along the same lines as the poster above, I'd love to take my t8 necro who was a breeze to solo up and instead have something rarer and more desirable, like a dirge or a defiler at that same level. But that would not be fair to the people who put the time and effort into a class like that that is more group-centered and slower to level.Or maybe, for some really dumb reason, I decide I'd like to be a tank instead. I would be awful as a t8 tank w/out that experience of 70+ levels to learn how to do it well. I know that about myself, but some people may not. And like the poster above pointed out, others shouldn't have to worry about that so much (ebayed toons are bad enough). Yeah, there's a switch between wizard and warlock, but that's nothing compared to switching from wizard to guardian. And even if you could do it easily, there's plenty of people who still struggle with the intricacies class they've leveled up. Heck, plenty of level 70+ people don't even know what all the classes do (I don't have time to search for it right now, but there's a thread in the defiler forum with stories about high level people not knowing they're healers--funny, but still rather depressing for the defilers out there), let alone how to play them decently.Yeah, there are things about it that might be nice for some people, but besides the fact that it's likely impossible (or at least very improbable) to switch this game mechanic, there are very strong downsides to doing it.

greenmantle

03-04-2008, 11:48 PM

Gets suggested roughly once a month Devs used to reply saying no it is impossible to the first few after the 30th time its been raised they probaly wont bother. Cant be done sorry.

Thunderthyze

03-05-2008, 05:47 AM

You know what? I would be quite prepared to see my adventure level reset.......even to zero! I know the build mechanics are different but you CAN do this with tradeskilling, albeit it only drops to 10.My point is that it takes a long time to get a set of tradeskillers up to cap where they can be of some use to your stable of alts. It is a shame then if they were created on alts you no longer play for whatever reason. At the moment you can have 12 alts on a server per account (maximum), now if 9 of those are set and immutable then that only gives you 3 slots to chop and change around with.All I'm saying is that it would be nice to have the "option" to be able to reset your adventure class. Sorry if certain people take offense at this suggestion. /shrug

Khamul

03-05-2008, 11:14 AM

<cite>Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>snip:All I'm saying is that it would be nice to have the "option" to be able to reset your adventure class. Sorry if certain people take offense at this suggestion. /shrug</blockquote>I don't think people are really offended by the suggestion, they just get tired of seeing the question asked and answered over and over and over and over again. /shrugKind of like the Beastlord thing IMO.

Banditman

03-05-2008, 11:18 AM

There are enough idiots at L80 already. Do you think the quality of the game would go up or down when someone was suddenly able to become a class they knew NOTHING about ?Terrible idea.

Wauke

03-05-2008, 12:54 PM

<cite>Khamul@Nektulos wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Holymoly@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote>snip:All I'm saying is that it would be nice to have the "option" to be able to reset your adventure class. Sorry if certain people take offense at this suggestion. /shrug</blockquote>I don't think people are really offended by the suggestion, they just get tired of seeing the question asked and answered over and over and over and over again. /shrugKind of like the Beastlord thing IMO.</blockquote>Wouldn't it be great if you could reset your adventure level and switch to beastlord!!!!

Skrett

03-05-2008, 06:01 PM

It would make more sense if you could switch your profession to anything but at a price.If you are a ShadowKnight and decide to be a Monk for example, you would lose half of your levels since you would know the fighting fundamentals but not the class specific ones.If you are a ShadowKnight and decide to be a Ranger, you would lose `80% of your levels since there would be much more to relearn.