SK Future?

[Naithachal]

<cite>Fyreflyte wrote:</cite><blockquote>The key word here is "intended". Nothing I said (or even conveyed) presented a stance on which classes were intended for what. It is fact, not opinion, that crusaders are generally not used as MTs, and that is all that I meant in my initial post. There is nothing more to read into.</blockquote><p>As we all knew and from the above Statement from another Thread the Dev's also  knew SK's or Crusaders in general are not used as MT's in most Raidforces.</p><p>Now i think it would be a bit to much to say thats because most SK's just suck. So there must be some issues with our Class.</p><p>I really would like a DEV to post here if they are aware of those issues and if they gonna do something about it.</p><p>Please dont use this as a complain or whining thread. I just would like to hear if the Dev's are aware or not. Or if they think we are fine as it is. </p><p>Dont get me wrong. I dont think were [Removed for Content]. I am MT/OT in a casual Raidforce (RoK T2) and i can Tank those MOB's just fine. But i do see that we need som work to compare against Warriors if we are not in a perfect Group made for SK's and with no perfect balanced gear for us. Like it's often in a casual Raidforce.</p>

[geophonic]

<cite>Nivel@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>I really would like a DEV to post here if they are aware of those issues and if they gonna do something about it.</blockquote>I am not overly optimistic about this to happen. Maybe this is exaggerated, but sometimes I doubt the devs even know this class forum exists at all.However I remember a post by Grimwell on the RoK beta forums where he basically turned down alot of cunstructive feedback given by the SKs who played in beta. It was along the lines of " this is not the time and place to ask for class revamps cause they won´t happen" (can´t remember exactly what he wrote). Not that anyone requested a class revamp, but in my opinion he actually said that nothing is going to change no matter how good the feedback will be.I agree with you that the SK class is not [Removed for Content], not even close to. I myself am OT/MT in a casual raidforce and I can get the job done pretty good, albeit some class tweaks would really help.

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<p>I am also MT/OT for 1 raid force (since T6), and I run another one that also uses SKs to MT/OT since T5 (also was me, but now I use others so I can coordinate better...too much to do and still tank). I know of a couple more right off hand on my server (among the guilds that are more actively raiding current content anyway). It doesn't appear to be as rare as some might think, based on my expereince and observations.</p><p>I also know that at FF, my raid leader (the first force is not mine) was chatting with a Dev and mentioned that he used an SK to fill tanking roles. They had a nice chat apparently afterwards. Devs get feedback through all kinds of chanels, and imo, they've done a good job of providing us the tools we need to get the job done. So far, I've not run into anything that I didn't find an SK capable of handling yet...which gives me the distinct impression that they are more aware of what kind of tweaks we need/want than many believe.</p><p>There is a mix of class strenghts and weaknesses (which are catered to through encounter designs), perceptions, and plain ole historical precedent/grandfathering that affect things though. The main issue has been encounter design IMO, and I'm happy to say that at least a couple more have been made that play to our strenghts. Things are looking more promising for the future than ever I find.</p>

[Naithachal]

<p>As i said i dont think we are not capable of handling. But we lack in survivability and DPS at the same Time. ([Removed for Content] you Buckler line <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )A Raidforce on their Limits would propably take a Guard above a SK just because of survivability.</p><p>I am also not ask for a revamp. I think we are a fine Class. But we need some tweak to change this "Warriors above all" mentality.</p><p>C'mon even the Dev on my Quote above is talking of "facts" and not "opinions" for Crusaders not been used as MT's. You can not ignore this. I knew there are SK's out there MT'ing. As i sayd i for myself MT'ing. But most of them (not all) are in special situations (Raidleader, Guildleader etc.). And if the Majority thinks this way there have to be some truth in it.</p><p>PS: I would love to go more in depth for my arguments. But my english is very bad. ;(</p>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<cite>Nivel@Valor wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>But we lack in survivability and DPS at the same Time. ([I cannot control my vocabulary] you Buckler line <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"> )A Raidforce on their Limits would propably take a Guard above a SK just because of survivability.</p></blockquote><p>Not really, depends what you're up against and how your raid is setup (who has what buffs). </p><p>Our raidleader (and me as well for my raids) go with what we think works best for whatever is giving us trouble. I also find "trouble" is usually just control/coordination/learning a sequence as a raid force, pushing DPS up a notch, working around an event... etc....its rare that the tank just can't hold up. I've yet to run into a mob that an SK (or a pally) couldn't stand up to actually. </p><p>We have a guard, and he does a great job....but there is no question that he is not best suited for every encounter (he will grudgeingly admit as much too). </p><p>Oo...and your English is just great <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Naithachal]

<p>Hehe thanks you but you dont see me work for hours to write this. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> </p><p>Ok i for myself had diffrent expirience.</p><p>While i do agree that there are MOB's where you don't see any difference between the Tanks i'm yet to see one in RoK where a Warrior is less usefull then a Crusader.</p><p>The difference as i expirience it is most in the beginning of a new Tier. The more i and the RF can gear up the less i see a difference.  But still, for very hard hitting MOB's i never saw a Crusader Avoid/Block better then a Warrior. For a casual Raidforce where you dont run through with 40K+ DPS and where the Group setup often isn't perfect this is a big gap. I find myself often good buffed for Melee but missing spell and defens buffs. If it's because of missing Classes in the Raid or because the Raidleader thinks they're better on the Casters i don't knew. Maby i am wrong here but isn't it easier to MT buff a Warrior? STR/STA and Haste is allmost never missing.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> But this is just guessing.And since there is allmost nothing a Warrior can do not at least equal to a Crusader with maby less effort why should one take a Crusader above a Warrior? Beside the players behind the Toons make the difference.</p><p>And once again. I am not saying "we cannot stand up to" any of the MOB's. But i  do think we need work to compete against Warriors for the Primary Tank spot. If we deny any Problems and say it's all OK as it is. We never see more Crusaders in the MT spot as those few good Friends of a Raid or Guildleaders Raid- Guildleader by them selfs and the occasionally one because there is no Guard in the RF.</p>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<cite>Nivel@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Hehe thanks you but you dont see me work for hours to write this. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"> </p><p>Ok i for myself had diffrent expirience.</p><p>While i do agree that there are MOB's where you don't see any difference between the Tanks i'm yet to see one in RoK where a Warrior is less usefull then a Crusader.</p><p><span style="color: #3300ff;">There are quite a few actually. More in RoK than in the past I find (though there a couple in EoF and KoS as well).</span></p><p>The difference as i expirience it is most in the beginning of a new Tier. The more i and the RF can gear up the less i see a difference. </p><p><span style="color: #3300ff;">I never noticed an issue entering new Tiers due to tank class used. Most of our first kills were with an SK/Guard combo, and many of our first kills were with the SK as MT as well. </span></p><p>But still, for very hard hitting MOB's i never saw a Crusader Avoid/Block better then a Warrior. </p><p><span style="color: #3300ff;">They don't generally, though the difference is minimal. The main thing that you really need to worry about is RNG double attacks. ToS doesn't help there, so Bloodletter has the edge (2 procs with the set bonus even). It's a guaranteed survival. Otherwise, you are banking on a few % of difference (since it is only the Uncontested avoid that is of use). End result...no biggie imo. Guards have an extra "save your butt hanging on the red line" ability (and it is useable more than once in longer than 3 minute fights). With SK healbacks, there are many times that you keep yourself from getting into that "red line zone" though. The difference is less than it appears imo.</span></p><p>For a casual Raidforce where you dont run through with 40K+ DPS and where the Group setup often isn't perfect this is a big gap. I find myself often good buffed for Melee but missing spell and defens buffs. If it's because of missing Classes in the Raid or because the Raidleader thinks they're better on the Casters i don't knew. Maby i am wrong here but isn't it easier to MT buff a Warrior? </p><p><span style="color: #3333ff;">I don't think so. I want Defensive buffs/STA/raw health and Hate transfers when tanking. Same setup for a warrior. 2 healer. If for some reason 3 healers are used, I would generally prefer a Fury over a Warden (that's my preferance though). That's it.</span></p><p>STR/STA and Haste is allmost never missing.<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"> But this is just guessing.And since there is allmost nothing a Warrior can do not at least equal to a Crusader with maby less effort why should one take a Crusader above a Warrior? </p><p><span style="color: #3333ff;">Not true, all the classes have strenghts and weaknesses. Is it worth swapping tanks back and forth for marginal advantages though? (generally no).</span></p><p>Beside the players behind the Toons make the difference.</p><p><span style="color: #3333ff;">Wholeheartedely agree </span><img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p>And once again. I am not saying "we cannot stand up to" any of the MOB's. But i  do think we need work to compete against Warriors for the Primary Tank spot. </p><p><span style="color: #3333ff;">We do need to work hard to compete as MT ( I enjoy that though), IMO we don't for OT (I feel we have a good edge there). We also have the edge in almost every other aspect of the game (again, IMO). Personally, I'm good with that/ Don't get me wrong though, I'm always happy whenever we get a boost of any kind....I just don't see any great disparities. Minor ones? Sure, but given our dominance in other areas, I'm nervous whenever "balancing" changes come up.</span></p><p>If we deny any Problems and say it's all OK as it is. We never see more Crusaders in the MT spot as those few good Friends of a Raid or Guildleaders Raid- Guildleader by them selfs and the occasionally one because there is no Guard in the RF.</p><p><span style="color: #3333ff;">There are already more than just those types (I'm one of them...and I doubt I'm the only one). It appears to me that the Devs have been pushing us in the right direction (for these roles) for a long time. It also seems like a slow process. From what I've seen, IMO our future looks good</span> <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></p></blockquote>

[Naithachal]

<cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite><blockquote><blockquote><p><span style="color: #3333ff;">... </span></p><p><span style="color: #3333ff;">Don't get me wrong though, I'm always happy whenever we get a boost of any kind....I just don't see any great disparities. Minor ones? Sure, but given our dominance in other areas, I'm nervous whenever "balancing" changes come up.</span></p></blockquote></blockquote><p>Thats my Point. Minor ones. Thats all i ask for. I dont want to be a overpowered easy to play Class.Imo a few % more Parry/Block. Or maby less negative effects on our Stances.For the future? Maby you knew more then me but just missing a Defensive effect on our Epic (and i talk about the Heroic Epic not the Raid one because im far away from it) doesn't look so good for me. But we'll see. I would appreciate if a Dev came here for once and tell us how they see our future.</p>

[ganng]

<p>As a calss we are up against a few tough issues:</p><ol><li>The old school preception that Wariors are the best in all situations.  If a Warior lead force dies they tend to just continue to pund away untill they figure out how to mannage the fight with a Warior MT as opposed to trying other classes. </li><li>The 'Easy Button' complex of havig a warior tank, players have been accustomed to it since T1 and changing things now causes all kinds of issues ... old dogs new tricks?</li><li>Lack of gear, yeah we have some but there is verry little that caters to our needs in contrast to the gear that is in game for wariors</li><li>Our dps/hat agro ballance is a little off withthe new RoK DPS levels</li><li>Lots of out of encounter AoE that can be a problem in lots of instances causing us to be less effective since our AoE skills are key to our tank style.  Granted it helped A LOT back when haveing multiple encounters add was not a death sentance (pre RoK) but now not so much.</li><li>Why bring a SK when you can fill your raid force with an additional DPS or utility class if you allready have an OT?</li></ol><p>Just my preceptions.</p><p> PS: I would add that some players just do not get how to play with a SK but that is old news that will never be addressed. </p>

[Bruener]

<p>I love the talk about SK's being MT's, the disparity between warriors and crusaders isn't that big, and all that jazz....</p><p>The truth is that crusaders do not even come close to warriors as end game MT's.  Those of you that actually MT can argue this all you want but it is just the simple truth.  Warriors, specifically Guardians, receive so many more tools than us to increase their survivability it is not even funny.  Unfortunately Mythical epics made this big gap even bigger.  Without a doubt Guardians are the number 1 choice for the MT spot and nobody else can even compete for that spot.</p><p>If you are blind to this I would ask that you don't even post because it is your saying that the SK class is fine that keeps in a [Removed for Content] state of being.  Instead take a look at what is actually going on around you.  How many hardcore guilds are using Guardian MT's v SK MT's.  Imo, Guards should be the MT of choice, but now take a look around and see how many guilds are using another Guardian as an OT, or a Bezerker as an OT, versus using a SK OT.  Take a look at DPS numbers when a full raid has Mythicals and notice that in the ranking SK's have dropped down quite a ways.</p><p>There is huge disparity.  SOE needs to man up and toss SK's a huge bone to make up for all the gaps between us and warriors.  We are offensive tanks, so give DPS that tops a Bezerkers b/c honestly they get more tank ability than we do so we should have more DPS than them.  They need to take a serious look at our Mythicals and change it drastically.  Add a ton more DPS to it since we do not have the continually over-powered buckler line to supplement and make a 1h better DPS for us over a 2h, or give us the ability to DW like all the other melee DPS classes out there.</p><p>TBH I am probably days away from retiring my SK for a while and he is the toon I have been playing since launch.  Every expansion and every LU I get my hopes up that SOE is going to give us something that really tips the scales, and yet what do I see...Oh, rangers get addressed and SK's get a [Removed for Content] upgrade to Reaver, as if it will even make any difference in end game.  Mythicals honestly broke the camels back for a lot of us out there and I am sure even less SK's will be around after not too long...maybe that is SOE's goal, to kill off the SK class so they don't have to worry about fixing the issues....</p>

[Naithachal]

<p>Well what we need most imo is some agreement in the SK comunity.</p><p>When i read this Board i'll see some good Posts and tips for SK's.But when it comes to our Class as a whole we obviously cannot come to an agreement by ourselfs.Some deny any problem and constantly say we're fine. Some say we're not even meant to be MT's.Others complain about anything and say we're [Removed for Content].At the end most such Posts become Rants and Flaming against ourselfs or the DEV's.</p><p>This way nothing will change. Never.</p><p>Maybe its not that easy because we're not even agree on our role. Some say we're should be DPS others say we're Tanks.Imo we are Tanks! Meant to be MT's and OT's in Heroic and Raid enviroments. We can DPS. But these Days any Tank Class can. The Days where Guards had ueber Defens but no DPS are long gone.</p><p>Imo we need more constructive feedback for the DEV's and maybe someday a DEV shows up and we can start work on what is really needed.</p>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<p>Maybe there will be issues in T9 as far as tanking goes, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. There aren't many as is, that's for sure....the Devs have done an excellent job in balancing things out imo. DPS wise we could use a few boosts, but its decent enough as is I suppose. I'm looking forward to the next round of encounters the most though, judging by this round...it looks promising <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Naithachal]

<cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Maybe there will be issues in T9 as far as tanking goes, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />. There aren't many as is, that's for sure....the Devs have done an excellent job in balancing things out imo. DPS wise we could use a few boosts, but its decent enough as is I suppose. I'm looking forward to the next round of encounters the most though, judging by this round...it looks promising <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote><p>Sorry to say but that's part of the Problem.While its good that all is OK for you obviously it isn't for many others.</p><p>Do they all just have no clue?Are they just whiners?Is Fyreflyte wrong when he says "its a fact that crusaders are generally not used as MTs"?Or is this our own fault because too many dont knew how to play a SK?</p><p>I dont think so.Imo it's not that bad as some say but it's also not that perfect as you say. We need some work for our survivability and for our DPS. Minor tweaks but they need to be done.</p>

[Mathafern]

Well, break it down; as MT for a raid Guardian should be the first choice.  It's what they more or less sign up for from level 1.  SK is the bomb for group tanking RoK though- add an inquis healer and you've got an instant group for most RoK instances.  CoA- defensive stance gives us great mitigation against the most common boss damage type.  This instance is a breeze for an 80 SK. Vaults- we can manage aggro on groups better than any other tank- and most pulls in here are groups. Maidens- again with the groups.  Chelsith- probably the instance we're least suited for; an SK can still tank this no sweat, just watch the AoE around flying blobbies. Don't get me wrong, I'm always happy at the notion of boosting SK abilities.  I think our Malefic Touch is weak given the reuse timer.  I'd love more DPS- but DPS isn't everything, and if you've got someone giving you grief about the parse you're always going to be unhappy.  "The parse" isn't perfect- it doesn't factor in the fact that you debuffed and boosted everyone elses DPS at the expense of your own.  Don't let it bother you.

[Bruener]

<cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Maybe there will be issues in T9 as far as tanking goes, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />. There aren't many as is, that's for sure....the Devs have done an excellent job in balancing things out imo. DPS wise we could use a few boosts, but its decent enough as is I suppose. I'm looking forward to the next round of encounters the most though, judging by this round...it looks promising <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote><p>Chimp you have got to be living in some kind of dream world.  There is no way we are where we should be in either the tanking department or the DPS department.  Is your guild rolling with all Mythicals?  Mythicals killed the balance that seemed to be forming up in RoK.  Guards now do almost just as good of DPS as a SK and can crush SK's in survivability and tank utilities.  Every fighter besides a Paladin now can out DPS sk's since SOE decided to retardedly make all epics 1h and did not take into account that unlike all the other classes Crusaders cannot DW, and we do not have the buckler line to max DA.  With Mythicals bards are now out DPS'ing SK's that is how sad it really is.</p><p>So they give us this sword with a bunch of dumb raw hate on it, but I am pretty sure everybody will argue that DPS hate > raw hate.  Even if you do the same numbers of hate in DPS or raw, DPS is greater for the simple fact that you are burning the mob down.  SOE should have given us all the hate that is on our weapon in the form of DPS hate, this would have made many in the community much happier.  Also, for some reason the SK epic has less stats than the other fighter epics, and instead of +5 shield to help with our avoidance we get a crappy +100 CA.</p><p>Supposedly, the epic revamp is in the works.  Lets hope they take a serious look at the SK one and give it the boost it deserves.  It should hit like a mythical 2h instead of a 1h and should have a much better DPS proc on it as well as a little more tank survivability.</p>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<p>The dreamworld I'm in seems to be working out well though.....should hop on in <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /> Its one where SKs can tank anything thats currently in game, and where the raid force doesn't seem to struggle when its happening <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" /> </p><p>I'm not DPS specc'd, but even with minor gear swaps I generally don't have difficulty topping the guards, Bards or Pallys in my circles...though the bard does whup me fairly often, depending on the encounters (fight by fight). Zonewides are often thrown off as I usually go full tankage on some fights, but guards and pallys are generally 2-3 hundred below, our bard is below or above depending on the zones (and also if he's AOE timing hehe). It also depends if I'm tnaking or OTing (or 'DPSing' ).</p><p>Anyway, I'm much less concerned with parses than I am with being able to handle the mobs in the first place (survive and maintain control). That part is fine for me. Now we can look at upping DPS a bit, ok sure, why would I say no (even though I don't find ours to in the toilet as is)?.....and possibly given us another show stopper (like bloodletter or DA...for the future).</p><p>Saying that warriors have way more survivability or DPS than SKs is complete nonsense though, before or after mythicals. The points on the Epic are true to a degree though, there was another thread about that...I posted the changes I'd like there. The as is version is still decent enough, but I'd really like to see some Shield Block on it. Extra raw stats and more health (to match the others) would be welcome too, but that's not as big a deal imo.</p>

[Bruener]

<p>No offense Chimp, but I went and checked out your profile and to me it tells a lot.  For one, my guess would be that you guys are not even out of T2 raiding based on your gear, well actually your lack of RoK gear.  In fact I only see a couple pieces of RoK fabled on your toon period.  So what exactly have you tanked in RoK?  What exactly has your guild cleared?  You are enjoying your role atm and that is great however the further into RoK you move the more you will notice what I am talking about.  The biggest disparity is that you don't seem to grasp what the Mythicals gave most of the other classes.  Guards are hands down the best MT, fine they are supposed to be the meat shield, but at the same time SOE questionably made them the best OT as well.  Yes with their Mythical and basically being able to max out DA because of the buckler line they can DPS just as well as a SK with their Mythical, and a guard will do it while having a crap load more avoidance.</p><p>They are looking at Mythicals and all that we can hope is that they take a serious look at the SK Mythical and give it a serious boost.  More survivability, it needs the shield block as well instead of the +CA.  It needs a lot a lot more DPS.  When you look at the SK Mythical compared to any other fighter Mythical it should scream more dps for that single weapon.  Other fighters get to DW...crusaders do not.  DW is like having 100% DA right off the bat.  Our epic needs to have a dr like the ranger bow with the same kind of spread.</p>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>No offense Chimp, but I went and checked out your profile and to me it tells a lot.  For one, my guess would be that you guys are not even out of T2 raiding based on your gear, well actually your lack of RoK gear.  In fact I only see a couple pieces of RoK fabled on your toon period.  So what exactly have you tanked in RoK?  What exactly has your guild cleared?  You are enjoying your role atm and that is great however the further into RoK you move the more you will notice what I am talking about.  The biggest disparity is that you don't seem to grasp what the Mythicals gave most of the other classes.  Guards are hands down the best MT, fine they are supposed to be the meat shield, but at the same time SOE questionably made them the best OT as well.  Yes with their Mythical and basically being able to max out DA because of the buckler line they can DPS just as well as a SK with their Mythical, and a guard will do it while having a crap load more avoidance.</p><p>They are looking at Mythicals and all that we can hope is that they take a serious look at the SK Mythical and give it a serious boost.  More survivability, it needs the shield block as well instead of the +CA.  It needs a lot a lot more DPS.  When you look at the SK Mythical compared to any other fighter Mythical it should scream more dps for that single weapon.  Other fighters get to DW...crusaders do not.  DW is like having 100% DA right off the bat.  Our epic needs to have a dr like the ranger bow with the same kind of spread.</p></blockquote><p>No offense taken, and we are moving into T3 now. No offense either, but moving up Tiers has been very very smooth, and anytime somone has mentioned it being so much more difficult, or this or that mob will give you a hard time....it was far from the case (Tier 2 is usually the "cutoff" referred to). Judging by the gear/stat levels of our servers frontrunners.....it won't be an issue this time either. Heard that kind of remark a million times since T4 actually....every time it was so dead wrong as to be laughable. I have no doubt its the same this time <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />. </p><p>Tanked everything up to T3 as MT and/or OT so far...geared as is <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />"  Wait till a few more pieces...will be smooth as silk. Also, as is, my stats are in the top 10-15 on my server of ALL tank classes...for HP & uncontested avoid....and Mit. For SKs, I'm always in the top 5, depending on what you're basing your criteria. Mitigation wise I'm generally top 10 serverwide, HP wise for SK...first to 4th usually, Avoidance wise first to 10th server wide for SKs.Worldwide I'm usually in the top 20-30ish of all SKs stat-wise. Been that way for years now. Not too worried about where I stand hehe <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></p><p>SK gear has just not been plentiful, passed on a few pieces while awaiting some larger upgrades...and we have a few platies competing...mage gear has been falling like rain though. I gear up for surviveability and aggro control, no issues to report yet. Which mobs gave you a hard time to tank, and why?</p><p>Guards are definitely not the best MT for every situation, there is no question about that. As far as OT?....SKs are far superior as well imo. Mythicals did not change that 1 bit </p><p>Shield block on the mythical should have been there already I think, but DW I have no use for really. I used to tank most zones with a 2 hander pre-RoK though, that was always fun <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" </p><p>Who is your toon by the way?... does not seem to be any Bruenor SKs that exist. If you are seriously having trouble , maybe I could have a look and see if I could give any suggestions. As you wish. <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" As is, its hard to determine why you're having problems, could be gear, stats, spec, adorns, group set up etc.....dunno.</p>

[Naithachal]

<p>May i ask what your Group setup looks like Chimp and how much DPS u do in lets say T2?Defensive/Offensive?</p><p>I find it the hardest to balance for survivability while still do enough DPS for aggro. </p><p>My Group Setup most time looks like </p><p>DefilerTemplarWardenIllu/CoercerSwashy/Briga or Assa</p><p>Sometimes i have a Dirge or a Fury but not that often atm. Lately i had to give up for some DPS gear to get more Parry so i can Tank offensive at least on Trash MOBs in T2. Now when i see a Warrior doing 2.5-3K DPS i cannot belive he does this Defensive. For me there is no way i do such DPS in Defensive most times not even Offensive. My DPS fluctuate between 1.5 and 2 K depends on the MOB and how the Raid does as a whole.</p>

[Soefje]

When I read these types of threads I always have to wonder.  The entire discussion revolves around raiding and I wonder what percentage of people actually raid.Now I am in a guild that is not big enough to raid.  I have never been on a raid with my SK.  NEVER.  I always see calls for DPS classes or heals, but never see a call for a raid looking for a SK.  NEVER.That being said, in groups in ROK (admittly mainly pickup groups), I don't feel I have enough tools to hold aggro.  I will lose aggro to bruisers, monks, zerkers, brigands and wizzies routinely.  Heaven forbid that a taunt gets resisted.  I would really like to see them take the Splitpaw Taunt (Goading Gestures) and put it on a different timer.  To me, this simple change would make a big difference.  One more taunt to cycle through with the rest would allow me to hold aggro in almost every situtation.My two coppers worth from a non-raiding SK.

[eyes007]

<p>There's confusion here as to the apparent "god-like state" of the tanks in this thread, people are saying warriors are ths and that, its actually incorrect, berserkers have drawn the short straw when it came to RoK, and Guardians have by far excelled in this expansion (although overall it's been a mage expansion) and are second only to bruisers in pure dps (except that bruisers have accepted the dps role fully and guardians are doing this in defensive stance).</p><p>I'd like to say that SKs are better overall as a tank, but thats not true, I'd like to say SKs do better DPS in RoK than Guards, maybe thats true if an SK is purely DPS but as a tank build, they just don't come close. You will only know this compared to a Guard that knows how to play, as it stands, Guards reign in tanking and fighter dps purely because they don't have to do as much to be first place.</p><p>Accept it or not, the 5 other tanking classes are in trouble and the Guardian Epic weapon has only hastened that.</p>

[rabid.pooh]

<cite>CHIMPNOODLE. wrote:</cite><blockquote>Saying that warriors have way more survivability or DPS than SKs is complete nonsense though, before or after mythicals. The points on the Epic are true to a degree though, there was another thread about that...I posted the changes I'd like there. The as is version is still decent enough, but I'd really like to see some Shield Block on it. Extra raw stats and more health (to match the others) would be welcome too, but that's not as big a deal imo.</blockquote>Chimp I think your smoking a big joint of denial my friend.  An SK has no way the survivability that a guard has when tanking epics.  Now when your talking instances your correct an SK's life taps + reaver is better then ToS, because the amount of damage coming in isn't as extreme, life taps are basically balanced for that type of gaming.  The devs haven't developed the raid content to our life taps Tell you what Roll a zerker grind him up to 80 betray to guard (guards suck solo <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />).  And go MT some raids, and then come back and say 'Warriors have way more survivability or DPS then SKs is complete nonsense though', and then like me you can laugh when someone says it <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.  As some of you may or may not know Toes has been a MT/OT since tier 6, and my main since release until recently when I rolled zerker leveled him up and betrayed to guard to MT for my guild.  The primary reason I did this was because of the itemization in RoK for SKs is poorly lacking.  The items are not addressing the SKs hybrid nature and SOE believes that +75 spell damage to an SK is the same as a +75 CA damage to a warrior which we all know is bull plunky.Playing an SK when you pop into the red you have DA and thats about it, once you hit it, it's down for 10 minutes you can't tap your way out of it.  When Blood letter is down, it's down for the fight it's not coming back up until you die and have not reengaged the encounter. On a guard when you hit the red, well you have dragoon reflexes with a 3 minute recast, or Block with a 1 minute recast or even ToS with a 1 min 30 recast.  All which will save your butt from the next 1 hit, 3 hits or next 12 seconds.  In that 10 minutes it takes DA to come back up a guard could have avoided taking way more damage then an SK could ever had.  When it comes to survivability no it's not a misconception that guards have more when tanking epics it's a fact roll one and check it out.Hate is easier on the SK if you know how to get it and keep it, however climbing back up the hate list is quite a bit easier on a guard, primarily because of reinforcement.  When I betrayed to a guard I was like man, how do these guys loose hate they have so many freaking taunts <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.DPS, well the funny thing about DPS is the SK has to be in his optimum group to spit out the big DPS which is of course is when he's in the mage group.  As it happens tho the optimum hate group is setup for mele, so a guard is going to out DPS an SK when MT'ing because every player in the group benifets 100% of his damage, an SK in that group is only having about 40 - 50% of his primary damage output being addressed by the group.  You can of course ask your Illy Girlfriend in that mage group to give you synergism/Tandem <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.Also the difference in the guard mythical is huge just standing there the guard has 13% more uncontested avoidance that the SK can never make up, so while SKs are gearing to get that avoid up, guards can look at other things like HPs, DPS adorns, mitigation etc.However a guard is not the best tank for every fight, and Raid Leaders have to figure that one out.

[Beldin_]

<cite>Kraace@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>That being said, in groups in ROK (admittly mainly pickup groups), I don't feel I have enough tools to hold aggro.  I will lose aggro to bruisers, monks, zerkers, brigands and wizzies routinely.  Heaven forbid that a taunt gets resisted.  </blockquote><p>Supporter classes with hategain are much more important also for groups now in RoK. Against single mobs Bruisers and Brigands were always classes who often pulled aggro. Now  also the damage of most pure melee classes and casters has gone up for 60-100%, and even if our own damage would have gone up the same amount, taunts have just got up for .. hm .. 5% ? </p><p>And of course the other problem is the lack of AoE content <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p>

[Mathafern]

<cite>Kraace@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>When I read these types of threads I always have to wonder.  The entire discussion revolves around raiding and I wonder what percentage of people actually raid.Now I am in a guild that is not big enough to raid.  I have never been on a raid with my SK.  NEVER.  I always see calls for DPS classes or heals, but never see a call for a raid looking for a SK.  NEVER.That being said, in groups in ROK (admittly mainly pickup groups), I don't feel I have enough tools to hold aggro.  I will lose aggro to bruisers, monks, zerkers, brigands and wizzies routinely.  Heaven forbid that a taunt gets resisted.  I would really like to see them take the Splitpaw Taunt (Goading Gestures) and put it on a different timer.  To me, this simple change would make a big difference.  One more taunt to cycle through with the rest would allow me to hold aggro in almost every situtation.My two coppers worth from a non-raiding SK.</blockquote>I raid with my SK- my guild is a casual raiding guild, so we only raid twice a week, but they're happy to have me off tanking since I can keep aggro off the casters even when someone manages to pull the room. Don't expect to be tagged for a pick-up raid though.  People have funny notions about what SK can and can't do.  A serious DPS (warlock etc) or healer is much more likely to be wanted by a pick-up raid or a raid looking to round out to 24.  So if you want to raid with SK, get involved with a good guild, establish your tanking cred.  Don't rely on a single taunt to hold aggro.  Also tell your group to wait for you to turn the mob before they really nuke it.  You've got two rescues, one of them is hidden as "Death March", it's a great way to get even multiple mobs off the rest of your group.  In Unrest a group member was fighting a mob all the way across the building (flipping levers) and Death March brought it down the stairs, across the hall, up the stairs.

[EvilAstroboy]

<p>For everyone that wants to delude themselves thats great, but as it stands when it comes to raids, Shadowknights are currently the 4th best tank and 5th best dps out of the six tank classes. That doesnt really stack up as a balanced class. Yes yes we tank fine in heroic dungeons, whoop de do, so do decent brawlers. Hate issues are non existant if you have the same quality gear as your dps classes do, the problem is that those pickups you were grouping with have fabled gear and master spells from the previous tier because they were actually invited to raids and given gear as a priority.</p><p>So what did the mythical solve? Nothing really, gave more hate to a class that doesnt have the tools to handle it efficiently.</p><p>So change the mythical? Thats not obtainable until you actually raid Veeshans Peak anyway. How about making Shadowknights a viable dps class in raids like brawlers? Since its been made very clear by the Guardian / Paladin mythicals and T8 spells who the intended MT / OT are. Change our offensive stance so its worthwhile, most of us are well past the INT soft cap in raids anyway, make it completely useless to tank with too in case you are worried about imbalanced heroic content. 100% spell double attack should do the trick. Or even a permanent dps component of Death March (leaving the CC immunity as 10 minute refresh on kills). Yeah that might be a bit overboard but Shadowknights need to become overpowered for a while to change general mentality towards them and raid spots. We should at least be able to parse as well as a brawler since they can tank heroic content and get spots in raids as dps.</p><p>Got told the other day that Shadowknights cant tank Maidens... Ive killed Drussella many many times with ease, but thats what the rest of the community thinks of Shadowknight tanks.</p>

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

I respect the opinions of those that don't agree, but it seems so far from the reality of things. Having a couple save your butt abilities for redlining doesn't make that large a difference in practice. Generally, the main worry for the tank is mob double attacks, and you just can't plan for them perfectly (effectively negating ToS etc unless you're lucky). Between healer anti-deaths, Defiler soul ward, and OT interecpts, Smokebombs etc...redlining for a second and hitting a block is nice....but it s not the be all end all (since you're covered anyway). Our tap-backs keep us from that red line to begin with many times as well.The difference in surviveability is not large, and not noticeable at all on the vast majority of mobs. Warriors dont excel at every encounter, and it seems like the design of some was purposely made for crusaders (whether people are using them as such or not). The future really does look good imo. That being said, I don't think we have surpassed warriors in surviveability either....we haven't, but if you think SKs aren't capable enough as is you're sadly mistaken.

[Jerma]

I dont think anyone is saying SKs arent capable.  The problem is why use a SHadowknight when the other classes do it better.  Granted SKs do a better job at some mobs for example Itzpa in Protectors Realm.  Overall though Guardians are at the top by a wide margin for tanking.  I think for most of us I would just like that gap shortened.  I dont think we should be the best tanks, but right now unfortunatly we are too far behind the curve.  Ive tanked all the heroic instances successfully and some T8 raid mobs, so i know it can be done.  Guardians simply do it better and with less work.  There is alot of things id like to see change for us, but I dont think it will happen simply becuase SOE continuously overlooks this class and will most likely do so until they get a dev that actually plays a SK imo.

[CHIMPNOODLE.]

<cite>Nivel@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>May i ask what your Group setup looks like Chimp and how much DPS u do in lets say T2?Defensive/Offensive?</p><p>I find it the hardest to balance for survivability while still do enough DPS for aggro. </p><p>My Group Setup most time looks like </p><p>DefilerTemplarWardenIllu/CoercerSwashy/Briga or Assa</p><p>Sometimes i have a Dirge or a Fury but not that often atm. Lately i had to give up for some DPS gear to get more Parry so i can Tank offensive at least on Trash MOBs in T2. Now when i see a Warrior doing 2.5-3K DPS i cannot belive he does this Defensive. For me there is no way i do such DPS in Defensive most times not even Offensive. My DPS fluctuate between 1.5 and 2 K depends on the MOB and how the Raid does as a whole.</p></blockquote><p>Ahh forgot to answer this, sorry.</p><p>If MT its usually something to this effect...(SK/Defiler/Templar/Swash/dirge always...and last spot is either Fury or Assasin....my other raid group would be a Coercer or Assasin). In defensive will be anywhere from 1.2k to 1.5 K.....offensive 1.3-1.9 ish....2.8-3.2 tops so far on the higher dps individual fights. Overall, it will usually place me right after the main casters and melee DPSers......and usually above the warriors and pally by a few hundred DPS. They will usually not have a dirge though (poor guys <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  ). Raid DPS will be anywhere from 26k to 41K depending on the encounter, most often around 33-35K though. When its near the higher range, mine is up as well (1.7k+).</p><p>If I'm OT I'll usually have a pretty mish-mash group. Templar and Fury, or occasionally Mystic instead of Fury/Assasin/and the last 3 slots seem to rotate so much its hard to say, often some extra meleers actually. Not much as far as buffers. In offensive I'll be around 1.3K-1-6K usually. Same numbers as above...very little as far as booster classes in my group though. Will land me usually very close to, or above, the MTs DPS (a guard). The zerker will pop above me occasionally too, but generally not....and the pally will be right below me. Depending on the fight, our brawler is either nicely above all the tanks (4-500)...several hundred, or several hundred below (he does do some AOE timing and coordinating though....so, hard to tell the significance). Really pretty dependant on who has what buffs/support that night I guess.</p><p>Not sure if that helps any will help, but since you were curious, we just work with what we have available.</p>

[DMIstar]

Well I havent Posted in awhile... and heres my thing on this.. though its sorta been a repeat of what was said in beta. Sk's/Crusaders can Tank Anything in Game.. Can we tank it as good as Berserker/Guardian ? No .. Its clearly more work overall for a crusader pop into that tank position then it is for the other two. In My Opinion its do to itemizations on crusaders suck ... On A tank stand point.. Berskers/Guardians Focus on STA,STR, AGI, HP, MITThey have focuses on Hand, such as Defense, Blocking, CA and others which overall Impacts the class. Sk's/Crusaders STR, STA ... AGI ... INT .. MIT.. HP Now STR and STA seems fine, Our AGI is nerfed Because we are suppose to have higher MItigation. yet Mitigation right now is near usele ss . We need INT For our spells, and This game realy is not built f or upping 4 stats equally and still have an equal  gain to that of the berserk and gaurd.P.s. Our Defensive stance gives us WIS ?? why ??? its not even any of the stats we are needing to tank. In the end right now, WE have no gain over guards or berserkers in tanking ability other then a few mitigitaion which is not coming out number wise..Gear Itimization wise, Is the one thing thats hitting us the most .. Mostly all plate gear, besides only now a few items is majority geared towards Berskers and Guards hands down. Our only cry for hope on this is adorments yet these are limited on what you can put stats on.and all our New items *cough* epic *cough* is not even being given any pure tanking focuses ... Its heres a sword that will give you instant aggro each times it casts but we wont give you anything to help the incoming damage .... Now this is fine to me, If Crusaders had the aggro advantage over Gaurds and berserkers over all .. Hence you can have a tank with better control on the mob but they are not going to keep alive as well... But this is not the case SK's DO NOT have Supperior Aggro abilities in this game. Actually with the DPS boost overall,  I'm Finding Even DM not being able to handle it. If we are supposed to have better aggro.. Then GIVE it us. DPS Stand Point.. I disagree / aggree on some points given... In Raid I am DPS.. I am not an OT or MT.. No I dont wear cloth .. If focused solely on DPS wise, (Hence Can't TANK !! ) Sk's DPS is the best out of all fighters hands down.. Only Time I am beaten by a fighter .. is when the Bersker is main tank with all the DS, and Attack Buffs on them.. Otherwise, unless the person is realy Specced out on DPS end, I will beat them on DPS parse easily. Issue is, trying to take a portion of this DPS and build it to a tanking portion, Is nearly impossible. WE are split in DPS by 4, No other class in this game is split like this at all. And I bet if I took the time to build a bersker up and completly focus DPS with it, I would find myself haveing an Easier time.. Will probably out do the SK due to this ... Trouble is actually building it up. I had a Guard once do this and the results where insane... Our DPS is STRINTSpell DmgCombat Art DMG All other fightersSTRCombat Art ... hence Easy to see why when tanking our damage sucks compared to others... we are trying to do 4 things just keep dmg up for aggro control and then in the meantime Have tank STATS ? to stay alive.. Dev will say well this is because you have spells to give utility:My answer.. What utility ? or in term of, Why is the SK utility so out of balance that it is not a thinking factor to millions of players who play this game ? Truth is, Players Research Classes, Buffs and abilities. and If these things pose a good thing, it is used... Yet I have never heard of a Player or Raid saying have an SK in raid to use Grave blessings as support for tanking or healing ... Never . Or have an SK tank due to they have lifetap abilities that help then on Keeping alive while keeping mob busy ... I have never heard that, nor think i will ever, unless something is changed and actually looked at. Overall I think the theories are sound with the class, just the numbers are way off. Which makes this class while tanking, loose to much ground when compared to other tanks. We have unique things overall, its just they are so low on scale they are to the point of not worth the trouble.

[Bruener]

<p>DMIstar you hit it right on the head.  The biggest problem with crusaders is that itemization is not even close to what it should be.  SK's are probably close to 50/50 on spells v. CA/melee.  While for example warriors are 100% CA/melee.  So if you take a look at all the items in this game they will add one or the other.  Lets take a piece of plate that has +3 melee crit and +100 CA damage.  Well since a SK only gets about 50% of his DPS from melee/CA it is more like adding +1.5%melee crit and +50 CA damage, while the warriors get the full value.</p><p>To even this out items need to contain both sides of the DPS fighters can do.  Instead, this item should have +3 melee crit, +3 spell crit, +100 CA, +100 spell damage.  That way crusaders would get the same out of one piece that warriors get.  Furthermore, items need to contain more int.  There are so many fighter pieces out there with a lot of str but than no int.  The stupid number system they use to make items really screws this up for us, because once again warriors just need +str for their dps where we are using str/int, again at a 50/50 ratio.  So instead of an item just having +50str on it they should put +50 str and +50 int on the same item.  Doesn't hurt warriors and helps crusaders.</p><p>The epic takes this discussion to a whole new level.  Crusaders are the only 2 classes in this game that do not optimize their set-up from a 1h for DPS.  All other classes in this game can either dual-wield, have an insane +DA AA line (warriors), or are in the boat of mages and priests where they can get a lot more out of a symbol or buckler since they are not melee'ing.  Our epic is a huge crutch and in the end while every other class is seeing a large gain to DPS by obtaining their 1h epic, ours will stay the same, because tbh it is slightly better than any 2h in the game to date for DPS....and yet because it is a 1h our DPS does not increase.  Again the stupid number system that SOE uses to make items screws us out of receiving the type of weapon that we deserve.  Our epic should hit like the ranger bow instead of like everybody elses epic.  Our epic should have more stats on it than any other epic because we are way more stat dependant than any other class.</p><p>Do these issues need to be addressed and changed?  Hell yeah they do.  Will they?  Lol I am sure we can all agree that it probably won't.  SOE likes to take the easy way out and use that stupid point value system for making items instead of actually looking at what a class needs and making items based on those needs.</p>

[Dragon]

<cite>Bruener wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Do these issues need to be addressed and changed?  Hell yeah they do.  Will they?  Lol I am sure we can all agree that it probably won't.  SOE likes to take the easy way out and use that stupid point value system for making items instead of actually looking at what a class needs and making items based on those needs.</p></blockquote>Well, they don't even need to change the way they do the point system on items.  All they really have to do is add some more mods that are more suited for all types of fighters.  What I mean is, and others have said this too, add in a variable that increases all damage from spells and CAs and another variable that increases all offensive critical chances (they made the game too in-depth me thinks, simplifying some things isn't always a bad thing).  Maybe even go so far as haste to affect all spells and attacks at once.  Then just add some more Jewelery/cloaks/belts/wrist that is based on the other stats and attributes a fighter needs.  That right there could make the problem less of a problem... but it requires some coding work (not so much balance... because they already have the balance down).It won't solve anything completely... but at least it is a start IMO.

[TheSpin]

<p>I may be oversimplifying things, but I think that to be a viable raid tank an SK simply needs more avoidence without sacrificing all of their Int.  Combining +CA and Spell damage might allow for other stats to be added to gear so that's a start, but the main weakness is avoidence.</p><p>SKs were given great tools to deal with spike damage, better than any other tank in my opinion (bloodletter combined with pools of blood), but for sustained tanking SKs aren't as good as warriors and zerkers because of avoidence.  To me it's that simple.</p>

[Soefje]

What about just changing all of our "spells" to combat arts and then we would be on the same playing ground as other fighters. I am also curious how the change in resists (in the last LU) will affect our ability to be effective tanks.  If the mob is resisting our spells, then we have a decrease in DPS, thus losing aggro potential.  I have not played my SK since the last LU went in.

[TheSpin]

<cite>Kraace@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>What about just changing all of our "spells" to combat arts and then we would be on the same playing ground as other fighters. I am also curious how the change in resists (in the last LU) will affect our ability to be effective tanks.  If the mob is resisting our spells, then we have a decrease in DPS, thus losing aggro potential.  I have not played my SK since the last LU went in.</blockquote>From what I've heard about the resist changes , they bring casters in line with the melee classes who were already having a problem landing attacks.

[Nor]

Combat leadership (wis line) for the win!

[Soefje]

<cite>TheSpin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kraace@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>What about just changing all of our "spells" to combat arts and then we would be on the same playing ground as other fighters. I am also curious how the change in resists (in the last LU) will affect our ability to be effective tanks.  If the mob is resisting our spells, then we have a decrease in DPS, thus losing aggro potential.  I have not played my SK since the last LU went in.</blockquote>From what I've heard about the resist changes , they bring casters in line with the melee classes who were already having a problem landing attacks.</blockquote>My point exactly, if approx. 50% of our damage is spells, then increasing the resists to spells, will ultimately lower our DPS, which in turn we use to maintain aggro, which leads to making tanking even more difficult.   Plus the fact that melee can get resisted as well as taunts.The spells are based upon skills (ordination, subjugation, etc) and I don't think they can raise the resists for just Mage/Priest spell casters.  So we would then be affected.I know I can go down the WIS AA line, but what do I sacrifice to get there.   I find I am a more effective tank with the STA and STR lines (and INT to max spell crit).So to put us back on topic, this is another example of SOE making a change that is supposed to benefit melee classes, that may actually end up harming crusaders.  Does not appear to me that the devs have a clear plan for SK.

[ganng]

<p>How about making our spells WIS based.  That way we will have a higher resist while boosting our DPS, should cover for our inability to cope with the kind of dammage a guard can. </p>

[Soefje]

<cite>ganng wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>How about making our spells WIS based.  That way we will have a higher resist while boosting our DPS, should cover for our inability to cope with the kind of dammage a guard can. </p></blockquote>We were WIS based in the beginning.  Don't remember which LU changed that.  I think Pallys are still WIS based for power.

[Naithachal]

<cite>TheSpin wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I may be oversimplifying things, but I think that to be a viable raid tank an SK simply needs more avoidence without sacrificing all of their Int.  Combining +CA and Spell damage might allow for other stats to be added to gear so that's a start, but the main weakness is avoidence.</p><p>SKs were given great tools to deal with spike damage, better than any other tank in my opinion (bloodletter combined with pools of blood), but for sustained tanking SKs aren't as good as warriors and zerkers because of avoidence.  To me it's that simple.</p></blockquote><p>Agree!Avoidance and maby some kind of spellhaste and/or spell double attack for our DPS and we should be fine.</p>

[Beldin_]

<cite>Kraace@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>ganng wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>How about making our spells WIS based.  That way we will have a higher resist while boosting our DPS, should cover for our inability to cope with the kind of dammage a guard can. </p></blockquote>We were WIS based in the beginning.  Don't remember which LU changed that.  I think Pallys are still WIS based for power.</blockquote>Only our powerpool was based on STR/WIS until EoF came out.

[Giral]

<p>    Easiest fix imo is for the dev's to fix our stances </p><p>    Offensive Stance add : when in offensive stance spell dmg increased by 20 % and melle damage by 40 %, any Damage Casts have a 50 % chance to aviod interupts </p><p>   Defensive stance add : increase hate ratio of dmg by 2 points hate to 1 damage(since our dps drops when in defensive and we use Dps for agro ) ,,, Increase Agil by 20% and + Block/parry/deflect etc.... Any lifetap/non damage casts will have a 50% chance to aviod being interupted(if a damage lifetap is used the damage potion will be Canceled but the lifetap will still land ) </p><p>   Just a general idea but in my own opinion this would be the simpliest and easiest way to Tweak the SK class to fix the imbalance between Plate Tank classes,  if the Dev's add to our stances they could Easily overcome both the Lack of gear for Shadowknights (by making our stances Make up for the lack of Stats needed for Sk's) and bring up what we Need for DPS(Offensive) and Survivabiliy/Agro(Defensive) </p><p>   We are a Tank class, and our Defensive stance should Seriously improve our ability to TANK with 1 hand/shield by giving us Much better survivability and Agro control ,,,,  they Could make Offensive stance realy decrease our survivablity if it Greatly increased our dps to be the Highest of plate tanks so Shadowknights that wanted to wear Robes could actualy Seriously compete with full caster classes(youd still be able to Group tank in offensive with a 2 hander since the Offensive stane would  increase DPS even more and mix/match gear to Survive , but Def/1hand/shield you would be able to tank it just as well but with 1/3 the dps and currently this isn't the case becuase in Def stance Almost anyone can peel agro from an SK in ROK)     as long as i can Tank/Survive and have tools to use to Grab/hold/maintain agro and ways to get it back when its lost then i could care less about my DPS as a Tank class,  if i could Set up in Full Tank gear be 100% even in survivability/hate as a Guardian and have Horible dps i could care less,   and likewise if others could care less about tanking with there SK and want to wear cloth and do all they can to Max dps in Offensive and have greatly reduced Survivablity more power to them </p><p>anyway , what do you think ? could the dev's just add a Little more to each of our stances to even out the disparity between crusaders/warriors   so that Offensively we would have the chance to do more damage then them(if Geared correctly) and Defensivly we could shorten the gap of survivability /agro control in def stance(if geared correctly)  </p>

[geophonic]

to everyone who demands that our spells should be combat arts: thats the craziest thing I have read so far. If I wanted this to happen I would have played a warrior, not a crusader. where is the point of being a hybrid if the one thing that makes a class a hybrid is removed?I am about to say that some people posting in this thread have no clue about whats going on, are you guys really playing a Shadowknight?From my own experience I can tank pretty much any RoK Raid Mob I have encountered so far. I can get to nearly 11.000 avoidance in a raid, I have bloodletter, decent mitigation (less than warriors but enough to get the job done), and I never ever loose aggro. who gives a **** if my dps is lower than the guards dps? If the guard needs the dps to hold aggro, so it be, we don´t. I agree that it all depends on the group/raid setup, but comeone, if you are the OT/MT you always have the best group setup available.

[Soefje]

<cite>Corvinos@Valor wrote:</cite><blockquote>to everyone who demands that our spells should be combat arts: thats the craziest thing I have read so far. If I wanted this to happen I would have played a warrior, not a crusader. where is the point of being a hybrid if the one thing that makes a class a hybrid is removed?I am about to say that some people posting in this thread have no clue about whats going on, are you guys really playing a Shadowknight?From my own experience I can tank pretty much any RoK Raid Mob I have encountered so far. I can get to nearly 11.000 avoidance in a raid, I have bloodletter, decent mitigation (less than warriors but enough to get the job done), and I never ever loose aggro. who gives a **** if my dps is lower than the guards dps? If the guard needs the dps to hold aggro, so it be, we don´t. I agree that it all depends on the group/raid setup, but comeone, if you are the OT/MT you always have the best group setup available.</blockquote>I am curious about something.  How many SK that MT regularly in raids are guild leaders/raid leader/officer in their guilds.  For those of us that joined a guild that has, for various reasons, not ended up raiding, how am I supposed to get the Fabled gear.  The perception, whether right or wrong, is that warriors are better tanks.  If that is the general perception, then raiding will be come next to impossible for us that have to "hunt" for raids.  That leaves me the options of leaving a guild I really like and forming a new one, starting with a new guild and hope they develop into a raiding guild, or changing classes.  All of which are not acceptable.I do  have people that will call me to tank.  Groups I rarely have trouble with.  I will lose aggro to a bruiser/monk if they are going all out from the beginning of the fight, brigands if they do a high damage double attack, or a wizzy that unleashes ice nova too soon.  I do know that every time I have grouped with a zerker of any quality, he could pull aggro if he wanted too.I think what most people are asking for is just a little help.  We are a hybrid class, it was the appeal for me picking the class.  But our skills are not set up as such.  Our offensive stance should enhance our offensive capabilities, increase INT or STR (or both).  When we changed from a WIS based spell casters in LU 19 to INT, the stance never changed.  I do don't care what my DPS is.  I want to be able to tank in a group and hold aggro most of the time.  I want raids to look for SK to fill spaces.  I want guilds to consider SK a viable option when forming raids.  In a nutshell, I want the perception changed.

[geophonic]

<cite>Kraace@Everfrost wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite>In a nutshell, I want the perception changed.</blockquote>THATS the key thing!!!All we really need are somewhat minor tweaks to the class. When I started in the raidforce I am in right now I was on a standby position and only got to a raid when not enough people signed up ( we are a casual family friendly raid force). And the more often I did get on a raid the more often I got the chance to show what I as a SK and as a player am capable of. And at the end the perception of our Raid leader changed so that I am now OT/MT. SKs can if they want, alas we struggle some more, but I love exactly this challenge.And with my post I just wanted to point out that people who demand a complete class revamp are definately playing the wrong class if it doesn´t work for them.

[LygerT]

i noticed the word "warrior" being thrown around alot in the beginning of this thread, in all honesty SK has some serious contention for the 3rd/4th place tanking position. you're not alone out there, if you're curious take a look at some of the threads on our zerk forum, maybe it will help you feel a little better.

[Giral]

<cite>Lyger@Mistmoore wrote:</cite><blockquote>i noticed the word "warrior" being thrown around alot in the beginning of this thread, in all honesty SK has some serious contention for the 3rd/4th place tanking position. you're not alone out there, if you're curious take a look at some of the threads on our zerk forum, maybe it will help you feel a little better. </blockquote><p>actualy what is funny to me is that with Rok SOE has put the 4 Plate classes right back where they were at Release  Guardian ahead by a large margin(and now they can do 3+ k MT'ing )   and then 2nd was Paladin , 3rd was zerker, and SK was last due to broken skill lines( Yes i know SK's even back then tanked Every single raid mob in the game , give a great player a Broken class and they will make it work , i have been playing since release and raiding since level 45+ , raided thru DOF,KOS,EOF, and now into t-2 almost t-3 in rok, i have never been a Guild/raid leader in Any of these riad guild's and i had to prove myself able with my class to raid in everyone, and still proving myself till this day , i OT 80 % of the time and MT 20 % , is the Sk class Lacking ,, yes it Definitly could use just a few Minor Tweaks, a bit more dps, a bit more abilty to absorb damage, and proper itemitaztion for Crusader's </p><p>whats sadder is that by midway thru EOF the 4 plate tanks were the most Balanced they have ever been in eq2, there was literaly a 5 to 8 % differance in using any plate tank as MT for 98 % of the content , some minor tweaks in rok to bridge that gap could have easily made there be 1 to 2 % differance in using any MT for anything</p><p>the new dev team(IMO the devs workin on eq2 now have jumped in end eof - pre-rok) and they looked at Statistic's they see that Almost All raid guild top end or casual use Guardians, they cant comprehend that that isnt becuase guardians are a Ultra fun class to play ( and there not becuase i have 1 , and it bores me to tears ) it's becuase they are the Easiest class to use as a MT becuase of there skill set , stats and aa </p><p>biggest issue you see with Shadowknights is that those SK's who have proven themselves and the SK class to be able to tank this,  dps that,  etc,, is that they are afriad of Minor tweaks, they know SOE doesn't have a clue and are scared that if they touch anything they will nerf us (can't realy blame em since SK's have seen nerf after nerf afetr nerf , never once in playing eq2 since nov 2004, have i ever seen SK's over powered but yet we have seen Alot of nerf's </p><p>secondly you always see " I agree Sk's could use some Minor tweaks " but yet you never see it elaborated, becuase of the fear of Nerf's </p><p>3rd there will always be a couple sk's who never have any problems with anything at all ever , there agro is Godley, there ability to tank any mob soe throw's at them is unriveled in eq2 history, they sit on efp docks so all can bask in there glory, etc,,, </p><p>the sk class isn't broken, it does need a couple minor tweak's , i bleieve these could be added to our Stances instead of changing every single ability/AA .... just a Small addition to give us the minor boost we need in Offensive and defensive </p><p>P.S > they did that CA crap with my inquistor and turned it into a battlecleric, needless to say i don't play my inquis very often anymore , if they do that crap to my sk's im done with eq2,    very many ways they can make our Mix of Spells/Ca work, easiest is to add in a buff  to increase our Dps with Spell/CA in Offensive and make speels less likely to be interupted, and Defensive lower our dps even more i dont care but add in some added survivabilty and agro to give any reason at all to actualy USE defensive stance. </p>

[Naithachal]

<p>Well i don't feel better when other Classes are in trouble too. But i think Zerkers are still a tad above us in survivability + DPS. Like vs. Guards we may do about the same or even a bit more DPS. If we are in Mage Groups and fully DPS speced but as MT's? I dont think so. Not if the Zerker knews what hes doing. But i agree Guards play in their own League.</p><p>Imo there are a few wrong statements. We dont have a bad reputation because many SK's dont know how to play. I saw "bad" Played Chars on any other Class and they dont have such a bad reputation. I think our bad rep. comes from a Design flaw wich gave us a little disadvantage and from ignorant people who expect SK's to fail. So even if a Healer doesn't do his Job and therefore the SK dies it's because of the SK not the Healer.</p><p>I agree with Corvinos we're not [Removed for Content]. We can do our Job and a good Played SK is by far better then a slacking Warrior (Guard or Zerker).</p><p>But Compared with same Gear and same capability of the Player behind the Toon we dont play in the same League imo.</p><p>Change our Spells to CA's is a bad idea. We are half melee and half casters wich imo is some of the fun playing a SK. </p><p>I dont agree that DPS doesn't matter. DPS is vital to hold aggro for any Tank class. Even if we had ueber aggro capabilities and would not need DPS for aggro. Why should someone use a SK if the Guard is equal in holding aggro but does twice the DPS? </p><p>I don't care if we do a little less DPS but it should be at least compareable to Warrior DPS. No matter if we have a perfect Group for melee and caster Buffs or not. No matter if we're buffed for max survivability or DPS. Currently Guards can do the same DPS like we do in Offensive stance but they still have almost the same survivability like we have in Defensiv stance. And thats just not OK.</p><p>SOE once said all Tanks should be able to do their Job equal. They just do it diffrent. That sounds nice but unfortunately is not the case. It seems Guards are Nr. 1 for SOE they just dont have the courage to tell us.</p><p>Imo it's Time for a statement from SOE. That's why i started this thread. But obviously it's not possible.</p>

[DMIstar]

For those who havent seen much on whats going on.IF you Look at your EQ logs you will notice that our Spells/Spellcrits/Melee/melee Crit Damage All fall under between Melee and Melee Crit logs, You can test this out by make seperate windows one to log only spell dmg and one to log only melee.The Spell Damage window will not show anything ... As well, the Spells Will show as a melee hit with same color scheme.. What does this mean? well not sure.. A. I tested out Decrease Mobs Phyiscal mit and seeing if that effected more spell dmg on our prev spells like it would melee .. But no, i didnt have that result. I do notice the past two days in groups I was have a better time keeping aggro .. Again I did not have the same people .. So It could be i didnt get anyone trigger happy on aggro spells. *cough* bruiser/brigands Everythign still scales as normal, no change in that .. though you'll notice Pariahs Strike keeps randomly changing everytime you examine it... This could be an answer for the caster nerf on raids.