Contested raid encounters in overland zones

[TaleraRis]

In the test update notes, it mentions the inclusion of contested raid targets in overland Kunark zones, the Domini. I implore the developers to reconsider an addition such as this. While this may be very exciting for those who hit these targets, it can be a nightmare for people who are trying to utilize the zone. Zones which may have been completely lag free for players questing or hunting mobs in the zone suddenly become like slogging through molasses when a raid zones in to battle a contested raid target. This was constantly the case for Loping Plains when the Headless Horseman would pop. I would be merrily questing along, experiencing no lag at all, and then a raid zoned in to hit him. Immediately, my framerate would go down to nothing and I could barely get around in Somborn, let alone the rest of the zone. It made doing anything in the zone while the raid was attempting (and sometimes wiping and attempting again and again) to kill the mob close to an impossibility. With the recent influx into previously less populated early Kunark zones that the new epics have caused, these areas have become nearly as laggy as they were when Kunark first launched. I would hate to be utilizing a zone as we were told it was to be utilized, overland zones being mainly for soloing, and suddenly be unable to continue my questing or hunting simply because a contested epic spawns and the zone becomes overpopulated. So I ask that you at least keep this in mind when you consider adding contested raid targets to areas that non-raiders are attempting to enjoy their playstyle in.

[-Arctura-]

(( no offence, but this game has nothing on EQ1 as far as dangerous zones go hehe..Ever been to old original Kithicor Forest at Night?That Was FUN!!!!!!!! So... so very fun. (because it was scary and deadly! <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)

[TaleraRis]

Yes, actually. I played EQ1 from June of 2000 up through Omens of War regularly and I still go back from time to time. I've done the kamikaze run *way* high up the wall to get to Highhold at night, even with everyone telling me just wait for daytime, and praying for all I was worth that a random zombie wouldn't spot me and pound me into mush. And that was without SoW, since I was an enchanter, and with limited visibility, because I was human. It's not an issue of dangerous zones. It's that the zone when a large amount of people come into it, especially all at once, becomes impossible to play in. I've had it happen numerous times in Loping Plains with the Headless Horseman.

[Wildmage]

<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote>(( no offence, but this game has nothing on EQ1 as far as dangerous zones go hehe..Ever been to old original Kithicor Forest at Night?That Was FUN!!!!!!!! So... so very fun. (because it was scary and deadly! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" />)</blockquote>It has absolutely nothing to do with making zones "dangerous" but that contested raid mobs put unreasonable lag issues onto soloers in the overland zones, the Headless horseman popping meant I found I generally had to go somewhere else if I was anywhere near his pop area as 30 or more people are now hanging around the raid group plus hanger ons torpedoed the frame rate. 

[Novusod]

Well if these raid encounters are only x2 raids then it shouldn't be a lag issue.

[-Arctura-]

<cite>Wildmage wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote>(( no offence, but this game has nothing on EQ1 as far as dangerous zones go hehe..Ever been to old original Kithicor Forest at Night?That Was FUN!!!!!!!! So... so very fun. (because it was scary and deadly! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" /&gt<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></blockquote>It has absolutely nothing to do with making zones "dangerous" but that contested raid mobs put unreasonable lag issues onto soloers in the overland zones, the Headless horseman popping meant I found I generally had to go somewhere else if I was anywhere near his pop area as 30 or more people are now hanging around the raid group plus hanger ons torpedoed the frame rate.  </blockquote>(( come play on PvP servers! Avatars are up 24/7.... horseman up 24/7... MO even up 24/7 <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Lag? What? 8-)

[Belaythien]

<span class="postbody">Lag isn't what bugs me with contested targets. It's yet another "you'll never even get a chance to touch it" thing.It says in the note:"They are contested raid targets in overland RoK zones <b>intended for casual raid guilds</b> in difficulty."That's like saying money lieing in the street is only intended for the poor <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Casual raid guilds never get a shot at contested raid targets. By the time a casual raid has enough people to try it, a 7-days-a-week raid com killed that mob 10 times over.It's almost impossible for casual raids to even get a shot at EoF contesteds. Does anybody really think T8 contested mobs will not be farmed solely by 24/7 raid coms? Like ... oh I don't know ... the past few years or so </span><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />.

[Freliant]

<cite>Belaythien wrote:</cite><blockquote><span class="postbody">Lag isn't what bugs me with contested targets. It's yet another "you'll never even get a chance to touch it" thing.It says in the note:"They are contested raid targets in overland RoK zones <b>intended for casual raid guilds</b> in difficulty."That's like saying money lieing in the street is only intended for the poor <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />. Casual raid guilds never get a shot at contested raid targets. By the time a casual raid has enough people to try it, a 7-days-a-week raid com killed that mob 10 times over.It's almost impossible for casual raids to even get a shot at EoF contesteds. Does anybody really think T8 contested mobs will not be farmed solely by 24/7 raid coms? Like ... oh I don't know ... the past few years or so </span><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />.</blockquote><p>This is exactly what came to mind. The issue is, that there is no way in our current game mechanics that a casual or pickup raid can do epic contested content BEFORE a hard-core guild can. And lets face it, once they have killed it once, its on a farm basis since they will just count 6 days from the moment it dies and have the raid force up as its popping up next week.</p><p>Its sad really, but what can one do other than watch... Maybe the rewards will not be so good that the hardcore raiders will take pity and leave em up for the rest of the server... but I doubt that.</p>

[Kratoswra]

<p>I like this a lot. Especially if they are x2. Make em random spawn (from 1 day to 6 days) so nobody can predict when its up.</p><p>And anyway, if ppl are out doing contested that means more PVP <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p>

[Freliant]

<cite>Kravenon@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I like this a lot. Especially if they are x2. Make em random spawn (from 1 day to 6 days) so nobody can predict when its up.</p><p>And anyway, if ppl are out doing contested that means more PVP <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /></p></blockquote>In beta they were level 82-84x4... They are just stating that it will not be as difficult as diety fights, which currently are impossible to do with a casual raid group.

[Vorlak]

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Kravenon@Nagafen wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>I like this a lot. Especially if they are x2. Make em random spawn (from 1 day to 6 days) so nobody can predict when its up.</p><p>And anyway, if ppl are out doing contested that means more PVP <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src=" width="15" height="15" />" width="15" height="15"></p></blockquote>In beta they were level 82-84x4... They are just stating that it will not be as difficult as diety fights, which currently are impossible to do with a casual raid group.</blockquote>so its just giving the ultra guilds that can kill avatars more contested to lock down away from the casual guilds?

[Sabutai]

<cite>Gwyneth@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>In the test update notes, it mentions the inclusion of contested raid targets in overland Kunark zones, the Domini. I implore the developers to reconsider an addition such as this. While this may be very exciting for those who hit these targets, it can be a nightmare for people who are trying to utilize the zone. Zones which may have been completely lag free for players questing or hunting mobs in the zone suddenly become like slogging through molasses when a raid zones in to battle a contested raid target. This was constantly the case for Loping Plains when the Headless Horseman would pop. I would be merrily questing along, experiencing no lag at all, and then a raid zoned in to hit him. Immediately, my framerate would go down to nothing and I could barely get around in Somborn, let alone the rest of the zone. It made doing anything in the zone while the raid was attempting (and sometimes wiping and attempting again and again) to kill the mob close to an impossibility. With the recent influx into previously less populated early Kunark zones that the new epics have caused, these areas have become nearly as laggy as they were when Kunark first launched. I would hate to be utilizing a zone as we were told it was to be utilized, overland zones being mainly for soloing, and suddenly be unable to continue my questing or hunting simply because a contested epic spawns and the zone becomes overpopulated. So I ask that you at least keep this in mind when you consider adding contested raid targets to areas that non-raiders are attempting to enjoy their playstyle in. </blockquote>All I have to say is Ha Ha Ha.  I guess getting an entire expansion dedicated to solo/group play wasn't enough.  Now that something comes along that will probably not affect your gameplay in the least, you have to spout up and say get rid of it.  Dude, please just go away, be happy that the devs have decided that the raiding community is no longer a priority and be happy with that, no need sticking your nose where it doesn't belong.

[Wildmage]

<cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gwyneth@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>In the test update notes, it mentions the inclusion of contested raid targets in overland Kunark zones, the Domini. I implore the developers to reconsider an addition such as this. While this may be very exciting for those who hit these targets, it can be a nightmare for people who are trying to utilize the zone. Zones which may have been completely lag free for players questing or hunting mobs in the zone suddenly become like slogging through molasses when a raid zones in to battle a contested raid target. This was constantly the case for Loping Plains when the Headless Horseman would pop. I would be merrily questing along, experiencing no lag at all, and then a raid zoned in to hit him. Immediately, my framerate would go down to nothing and I could barely get around in Somborn, let alone the rest of the zone. It made doing anything in the zone while the raid was attempting (and sometimes wiping and attempting again and again) to kill the mob close to an impossibility. With the recent influx into previously less populated early Kunark zones that the new epics have caused, these areas have become nearly as laggy as they were when Kunark first launched. I would hate to be utilizing a zone as we were told it was to be utilized, overland zones being mainly for soloing, and suddenly be unable to continue my questing or hunting simply because a contested epic spawns and the zone becomes overpopulated. So I ask that you at least keep this in mind when you consider adding contested raid targets to areas that non-raiders are attempting to enjoy their playstyle in. </blockquote>All I have to say is Ha Ha Ha.  I guess getting an entire expansion dedicated to solo/group play wasn't enough.  Now that something comes along that will probably not affect your gameplay in the least, you have to spout up and say get rid of it.  Dude, please just go away, be happy that the devs have decided that the raiding community is no longer a priority and be happy with that, no need sticking your nose where it doesn't belong.</blockquote>*sips his drink* ahh yes the typical raider mindset reply I have been waiting for, the issue is overland raids DO impact gameplay for soloers, LP's headless horseman contested raid time and time again when it gets raided and 30+ people are all concentrated in one spot in a single overland zone causes zone wide lag.Sabutai try reading the post before replying.

[Freliant]

<cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gwyneth@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>In the test update notes, it mentions the inclusion of contested raid targets in overland Kunark zones, the Domini. I implore the developers to reconsider an addition such as this. While this may be very exciting for those who hit these targets, it can be a nightmare for people who are trying to utilize the zone. Zones which may have been completely lag free for players questing or hunting mobs in the zone suddenly become like slogging through molasses when a raid zones in to battle a contested raid target. This was constantly the case for Loping Plains when the Headless Horseman would pop. I would be merrily questing along, experiencing no lag at all, and then a raid zoned in to hit him. Immediately, my framerate would go down to nothing and I could barely get around in Somborn, let alone the rest of the zone. It made doing anything in the zone while the raid was attempting (and sometimes wiping and attempting again and again) to kill the mob close to an impossibility. With the recent influx into previously less populated early Kunark zones that the new epics have caused, these areas have become nearly as laggy as they were when Kunark first launched. I would hate to be utilizing a zone as we were told it was to be utilized, overland zones being mainly for soloing, and suddenly be unable to continue my questing or hunting simply because a contested epic spawns and the zone becomes overpopulated. So I ask that you at least keep this in mind when you consider adding contested raid targets to areas that non-raiders are attempting to enjoy their playstyle in. </blockquote>All I have to say is Ha Ha Ha.  I guess getting an entire expansion dedicated to solo/group play wasn't enough.  Now that something comes along that will probably not affect your gameplay in the least, you have to spout up and say get rid of it.  Dude, please just go away, be happy that the devs have decided that the raiding community is no longer a priority and be happy with that, no need sticking your nose where it doesn't belong.</blockquote><p>WTSF? Raiders not the priority? You get money, loot, status, AA, more story, better encounters, and a HECK of alot more dungeons than those that group up. Groups get a total of 5 group zones, 3 or which are the most frequently done compared to... what is it now 12 T8 raid dungeons, 9 dieties (lost count) and now a slew of more raid targets? Serioursly WT freak? Do I want these mobs to not be in the game? No, I don't care for them... I might get lucky and my casual raid force might actually get one, but saying that the entire expansion was dedicated to the solo/group and not raid is just royal grade B.S.</p><p>Quiickest/most effective way to get Masters: Raiding</p><p>Quickest/most effective way to get status: Raiding</p><p>Most dungeons on T8: Raiders</p><p>Most money per mob/player: Raiders</p><p>Most effective way to get money: Selling overpriced masters from Raids.</p><p>This expansion was geared towards 2 types of mindset: Soloers, and Raiders... Not all soloers, mind you, just the very effective ones. The rest of the community (grouping) got the shaft in content, with 3 public dungeons, 5 instances, which I might add RAIDERS STILL GET TO DO. Be happy you raid and get so many benefits for being part of the raid group you are in, but NEVER say that you are not the priority.</p>

[Uilamin]

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>WTSF? Raiders not the priority? You get money, loot, status, AA, more story, better encounters, and a HECK of alot more dungeons than those that group up. Groups get a total of 5 group zones, 3 or which are the most frequently done compared to... what is it now 12 T8 raid dungeons, 9 dieties (lost count) and now a slew of more raid targets? Serioursly WT freak? Do I want these mobs to not be in the game? No, I don't care for them... I might get lucky and my casual raid force might actually get one, but saying that the entire expansion was dedicated to the solo/group and not raid is just royal grade B.S.</p><p>Quiickest/most effective way to get Masters: Raiding</p><p>Quickest/most effective way to get status: Raiding</p><p>Most dungeons on T8: Raiders</p><p>Most money per mob/player: Raiders</p><p>Most effective way to get money: Selling overpriced masters from Raids.</p><p>This expansion was geared towards 2 types of mindset: Soloers, and Raiders... Not all soloers, mind you, just the very effective ones. The rest of the community (grouping) got the shaft in content, with 3 public dungeons, 5 instances, which I might add RAIDERS STILL GET TO DO. Be happy you raid and get so many benefits for being part of the raid group you are in, but NEVER say that you are not the priority.</p></blockquote>Actually best way to get masters is farming dungeons therefore groupsBest status is pvp, failing that writs (it is just mind numbingly borring to grind them)Dungeons with more than one named: Grouping  (raiders have 3 T8 zones with more than 1 named in it, 4 with single named, grouping had 4 multi-named instanced dungeons, one single named, and 3 contested dungeons... wait they have more too)Most money per mob: epic mobsEffective cash source: tradeskill consumables (atleast on pvp servers)Now there is a lot of group content that is just not touched or really bothered with, however, that is more poor implementation or people not wanting to do it than it not being present.

[Sabutai]

<cite>Wildmage wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gwyneth@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>In the test update notes, it mentions the inclusion of contested raid targets in overland Kunark zones, the Domini. I implore the developers to reconsider an addition such as this. While this may be very exciting for those who hit these targets, it can be a nightmare for people who are trying to utilize the zone. Zones which may have been completely lag free for players questing or hunting mobs in the zone suddenly become like slogging through molasses when a raid zones in to battle a contested raid target. This was constantly the case for Loping Plains when the Headless Horseman would pop. I would be merrily questing along, experiencing no lag at all, and then a raid zoned in to hit him. Immediately, my framerate would go down to nothing and I could barely get around in Somborn, let alone the rest of the zone. It made doing anything in the zone while the raid was attempting (and sometimes wiping and attempting again and again) to kill the mob close to an impossibility. With the recent influx into previously less populated early Kunark zones that the new epics have caused, these areas have become nearly as laggy as they were when Kunark first launched. I would hate to be utilizing a zone as we were told it was to be utilized, overland zones being mainly for soloing, and suddenly be unable to continue my questing or hunting simply because a contested epic spawns and the zone becomes overpopulated. So I ask that you at least keep this in mind when you consider adding contested raid targets to areas that non-raiders are attempting to enjoy their playstyle in. </blockquote>All I have to say is Ha Ha Ha.  I guess getting an entire expansion dedicated to solo/group play wasn't enough.  Now that something comes along that will probably not affect your gameplay in the least, you have to spout up and say get rid of it.  Dude, please just go away, be happy that the devs have decided that the raiding community is no longer a priority and be happy with that, no need sticking your nose where it doesn't belong.</blockquote>*sips his drink* ahh yes the typical raider mindset reply I have been waiting for, the issue is overland raids DO impact gameplay for soloers, LP's headless horseman contested raid time and time again when it gets raided and 30+ people are all concentrated in one spot in a single overland zone causes zone wide lag.Sabutai try reading the post before replying.</blockquote>ah, how horrible for you.  the whole 15 mins you're inconvienced, must just ruin your whole day.

[TaleraRis]

<cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gwyneth@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>In the test update notes, it mentions the inclusion of contested raid targets in overland Kunark zones, the Domini. I implore the developers to reconsider an addition such as this. While this may be very exciting for those who hit these targets, it can be a nightmare for people who are trying to utilize the zone. Zones which may have been completely lag free for players questing or hunting mobs in the zone suddenly become like slogging through molasses when a raid zones in to battle a contested raid target. This was constantly the case for Loping Plains when the Headless Horseman would pop. I would be merrily questing along, experiencing no lag at all, and then a raid zoned in to hit him. Immediately, my framerate would go down to nothing and I could barely get around in Somborn, let alone the rest of the zone. It made doing anything in the zone while the raid was attempting (and sometimes wiping and attempting again and again) to kill the mob close to an impossibility. With the recent influx into previously less populated early Kunark zones that the new epics have caused, these areas have become nearly as laggy as they were when Kunark first launched. I would hate to be utilizing a zone as we were told it was to be utilized, overland zones being mainly for soloing, and suddenly be unable to continue my questing or hunting simply because a contested epic spawns and the zone becomes overpopulated. So I ask that you at least keep this in mind when you consider adding contested raid targets to areas that non-raiders are attempting to enjoy their playstyle in. </blockquote>All I have to say is Ha Ha Ha.  I guess getting an entire expansion dedicated to solo/group play wasn't enough.  Now that something comes along that will probably not affect your gameplay in the least, you have to spout up and say get rid of it.  Dude, please just go away, be happy that the devs have decided that the raiding community is no longer a priority and be happy with that, no need sticking your nose where it doesn't belong.</blockquote>Firstly, I'm a girl. Please try not to call me "dude". Secondly, if you actually read the post you quoted, then you would see that this is something that very much would affect my gameplay, as the same issue in other zones has affected my gameplay in the same way. I'm glad the issue of whether a casual guild would actually get a shot at these targets was brought up as well. It was often quoted before RoK released that the developers had stated they wanted to limit contested raid content in overland areas because less than 1% of 1% of the population actually got to experience it. So there is also the issue of how these mobs are going to be implemented to assure that a casual guild would be able to experience them as targets. I focused less on this point of things, however, because I would rather not see them in the proposed areas in the first place, namely because of the lag issue that drives players utilizing the zone from the zone, sometimes for their entire play session.

[Freliant]

<cite>Uilamin wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>WTSF? Raiders not the priority? You get money, loot, status, AA, more story, better encounters, and a HECK of alot more dungeons than those that group up. Groups get a total of 5 group zones, 3 or which are the most frequently done compared to... what is it now 12 T8 raid dungeons, 9 dieties (lost count) and now a slew of more raid targets? Serioursly WT freak? Do I want these mobs to not be in the game? No, I don't care for them... I might get lucky and my casual raid force might actually get one, but saying that the entire expansion was dedicated to the solo/group and not raid is just royal grade B.S.</p><p>Quiickest/most effective way to get Masters: Raiding</p><p>Quickest/most effective way to get status: Raiding</p><p>Most dungeons on T8: Raiders</p><p>Most money per mob/player: Raiders</p><p>Most effective way to get money: Selling overpriced masters from Raids.</p><p>This expansion was geared towards 2 types of mindset: Soloers, and Raiders... Not all soloers, mind you, just the very effective ones. The rest of the community (grouping) got the shaft in content, with 3 public dungeons, 5 instances, which I might add RAIDERS STILL GET TO DO. Be happy you raid and get so many benefits for being part of the raid group you are in, but NEVER say that you are not the priority.</p></blockquote>Actually best way to get masters is farming dungeons therefore groupsBest status is pvp, failing that writs (it is just mind numbingly borring to grind them)Dungeons with more than one named: Grouping  (raiders have 3 T8 zones with more than 1 named in it, 4 with single named, grouping had 4 multi-named instanced dungeons, one single named, and 3 contested dungeons... wait they have more too)Most money per mob: epic mobsEffective cash source: tradeskill consumables (atleast on pvp servers)Now there is a lot of group content that is just not touched or really bothered with, however, that is more poor implementation or people not wanting to do it than it not being present.</blockquote><p>Most servers are PvE and that is what I am focusing on this discussion. So best status still is Raids. 1.5k-2k+ guild status per kill per member of the raid = 36k-48k guild status per named kill. Lets say your guild does PR 2 times a week, that is on that instance alone, 7 encounters each at minimum of 36k guild status, which equates to 252k status per run, or 504k status every week for your guild. Unless you guild has a huge group of people doing writs every waking moment, they will not even get close to this amount of status from just 2 runs of the easiest multi-boss T8 raid in the game atm. On top of this, I have seen 1-3 masters drop on every one of those named mobs... so from 7+ masters per run, and 24+ plat per named kill is 168 plat spread among the raiders equally. Mind you, this is just from one night's worth of work. If I could sign in for an hour or 2 and get 7 plat and a chance at atleast 7 masters per night... heck, that would be awesome! I have run dungeons for entire weeks and not seen that many masters drop.</p><p>As for tradeskill consumables being a good source of money? Only if you have a bot harvesting for you. Many people can tell you that its tedious and boring work getting raws, and the reward per harvest is minimal at best. You are better off killing mobs for trash drops to sell and then buying the ingredients you need than harvesting them yourself. The only exception to this is rares... with loam still hitting upwards of 5 plat a piece. Yet getting one... not so easy.</p><p>And lastly, reguardless of how many named mobs are in the raid dungeon, there is still much more raid content than group content, and more solo content than group or raid content. If you want to cite poor implementation of dungeons and that people are just not using them, well, then I say to you: isn't that another point in favor of doing raids over dungeons? CK, Seb and Chardok are not rewarding, and that is the truth. If you would see people linking items and weapons that would make you oohh and aahh, then maybe you would get more use out of them, but as they stand, until the next patch, they did not even have a chance at masters for the same work that you put into a regular instance. Tell me, if your raid targets had a chance to drop treasured most of the time when you killed it, would you go after it? Well guess what, group content does have that chance, its very high, and we don't even get the benefit of money, or status for the kills.</p><p>So: Guaranteed loot, status and money per named kill VS no loot guarantee, no status, seldom trash drop for money. Who of the 2 do you think is doing better?</p>

[Uilamin]

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>Most servers are PvE and that is what I am focusing on this discussion. So best status still is Raids. 1.5k-2k+ guild status per kill per member of the raid = 36k-48k guild status per named kill. Lets say your guild does PR 2 times a week, that is on that instance alone, 7 encounters each at minimum of 36k guild status, which equates to 252k status per run, or 504k status every week for your guild. Unless you guild has a huge group of people doing writs every waking moment, they will not even get close to this amount of status from just 2 runs of the easiest multi-boss T8 raid in the game atm. On top of this, I have seen 1-3 masters drop on every one of those named mobs... so from 7+ masters per run, and 24+ plat per named kill is 168 plat spread among the raiders equally. Mind you, this is just from one night's worth of work. If I could sign in for an hour or 2 and get 7 plat and a chance at atleast 7 masters per night... heck, that would be awesome! I have run dungeons for entire weeks and not seen that many masters drop.</p><p>As for tradeskill consumables being a good source of money? Only if you have a bot harvesting for you. Many people can tell you that its tedious and boring work getting raws, and the reward per harvest is minimal at best. You are better off killing mobs for trash drops to sell and then buying the ingredients you need than harvesting them yourself. The only exception to this is rares... with loam still hitting upwards of 5 plat a piece. Yet getting one... not so easy.</p><p>And lastly, reguardless of how many named mobs are in the raid dungeon, there is still much more raid content than group content, and more solo content than group or raid content. If you want to cite poor implementation of dungeons and that people are just not using them, well, then I say to you: isn't that another point in favor of doing raids over dungeons? CK, Seb and Chardok are not rewarding, and that is the truth. If you would see people linking items and weapons that would make you oohh and aahh, then maybe you would get more use out of them, but as they stand, until the next patch, they did not even have a chance at masters for the same work that you put into a regular instance. Tell me, if your raid targets had a chance to drop treasured most of the time when you killed it, would you go after it? Well guess what, group content does have that chance, its very high, and we don't even get the benefit of money, or status for the kills.</p><p>So: Guaranteed loot, status and money per named kill VS no loot guarantee, no status, seldom trash drop for money. Who of the 2 do you think is doing better?</p></blockquote>I don't know how often you raid, but at most my guild see 2 masters from clearing T1 and T2, all zones put together, usually we only see 1.  Now that if you took the same people and cleared equivalent amount of RoK group instances I am sure you will see more masters.same thing goes for writs, get 24 players doing writs for the same duration that they would be raiding and the writs will give more status.  Sure people won't do that, but it still gives better.For the plat generation, with tradeskill epics rares are rather simple to get, therefore, good money.  However, for the amount of plat mobs drop, that varries from 10platish to 24platish.  (could be more in VP, I really don't know).  Now calling RoK raiding guaranteed loot is a joke as well, half the loot sucks to the point where they will get transmuted even when they are a disco.  Lots of instances, quests, and dungeons give better loot.Now for the value of RoK shared dungeons, some of the loot from them is insane.  People link it all the time, at least when they find out about it.  The priest shield from chardok, the mage wrist in seb, the scout leggings in seb, they are just examples.  And they currently drop masters too, just lvl75plus ones, if you knew about the mechanics you would know that currently the names do not drop low level t8 masters.  Please at least refer to mechanics in the game as they are when arguing something instead of just making things up.

[Splor]

Have you ever seen the zone split into multiple zones when one gets flooded? yeah... the majority of your guys arguments fail right there.Second, even as soloers do you people honestly spend endless hours in the same zone over and over and over? I think I finished every quest in the expansion in what... 3 days of loose playing? So what do you do once you finish your easy quests? kill solo mobs and hope a random master drops?I'm sympathetic to soloers as I do it quite often, but yeah... you don't have much weight behind your words.Third, if these mobs are of difficulty for casual guilds say such as mine, they might be up for 10-15 minutes tops once someone comes across them having spawned(and some idiot spams the channel going "omg... i just saw this big dragon and yeah, its like at X, Y, Z coordinate, and yeah, people are trying to form up but I want to see some awesome guild [Removed for Content] it&quot<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> then its going to be crushed and forgotten.Stop crying about the addition of content. The developers should be fixing the problems of the game true true, but yeah, we all know that'll never happen. Might as well accept the dog bones.

[NiteWolfe]

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gwyneth@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>In the test update notes, it mentions the inclusion of contested raid targets in overland Kunark zones, the Domini. I implore the developers to reconsider an addition such as this. While this may be very exciting for those who hit these targets, it can be a nightmare for people who are trying to utilize the zone. Zones which may have been completely lag free for players questing or hunting mobs in the zone suddenly become like slogging through molasses when a raid zones in to battle a contested raid target. This was constantly the case for Loping Plains when the Headless Horseman would pop. I would be merrily questing along, experiencing no lag at all, and then a raid zoned in to hit him. Immediately, my framerate would go down to nothing and I could barely get around in Somborn, let alone the rest of the zone. It made doing anything in the zone while the raid was attempting (and sometimes wiping and attempting again and again) to kill the mob close to an impossibility. With the recent influx into previously less populated early Kunark zones that the new epics have caused, these areas have become nearly as laggy as they were when Kunark first launched. I would hate to be utilizing a zone as we were told it was to be utilized, overland zones being mainly for soloing, and suddenly be unable to continue my questing or hunting simply because a contested epic spawns and the zone becomes overpopulated. So I ask that you at least keep this in mind when you consider adding contested raid targets to areas that non-raiders are attempting to enjoy their playstyle in. </blockquote>All I have to say is Ha Ha Ha.  I guess getting an entire expansion dedicated to solo/group play wasn't enough.  Now that something comes along that will probably not affect your gameplay in the least, you have to spout up and say get rid of it.  Dude, please just go away, be happy that the devs have decided that the raiding community is no longer a priority and be happy with that, no need sticking your nose where it doesn't belong.</blockquote><p>WTSF? Raiders not the priority? You get money, loot, status, AA, more story, better encounters, and a HECK of alot more dungeons than those that group up. <span style="color: #cc0000;"><b>Groups get a total of 5 group zones, 3 or which are the most frequently done compared to... what is it now 12 T8 raid dungeons, 9 dieties (lost count) and now a slew of more raid targets? </b></span>Serioursly WT freak? Do I want these mobs to not be in the game? No, I don't care for them... I might get lucky and my casual raid force might actually get one, but saying that the entire expansion was dedicated to the solo/group and not raid is just royal grade B.S.</p><p>Quiickest/most effective way to get Masters: Raiding</p><p>Quickest/most effective way to get status: Raiding</p><p>Most dungeons on T8: Raiders</p><p>Most money per mob/player: Raiders</p><p>Most effective way to get money: Selling overpriced masters from Raids.</p><p>This expansion was geared towards 2 types of mindset: Soloers, and Raiders... Not all soloers, mind you, just the very effective ones. The rest of the community (grouping) got the shaft in content, with 3 public dungeons, 5 instances, which I might add RAIDERS STILL GET TO DO. Be happy you raid and get so many benefits for being part of the raid group you are in, but NEVER say that you are not the priority.</p></blockquote>Think you got it backwards.. group/solo players get 4 over land zones, 3 contested dungeons, 5 instance zones. tons of solo and groupable contested nameds.Thats all new in t8. Raiders get 7 new t8 raid zones I seen 1 contested ape in fens and the new avatars. Dont even tell me that you think raiders get more of a play ground than group/solo players do. I like to know how you get 12 t8 raid zones out of the 7 that i know of.. WOW i totaly missed 5 whole t8 raid zones? pawbuster, overking, protectors realm, thuga, leviathian, venril sathir and veeshans peak.

[Martrae]

<cite>NiteWolfe wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gwyneth@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>In the test update notes, it mentions the inclusion of contested raid targets in overland Kunark zones, the Domini. I implore the developers to reconsider an addition such as this. While this may be very exciting for those who hit these targets, it can be a nightmare for people who are trying to utilize the zone. Zones which may have been completely lag free for players questing or hunting mobs in the zone suddenly become like slogging through molasses when a raid zones in to battle a contested raid target. This was constantly the case for Loping Plains when the Headless Horseman would pop. I would be merrily questing along, experiencing no lag at all, and then a raid zoned in to hit him. Immediately, my framerate would go down to nothing and I could barely get around in Somborn, let alone the rest of the zone. It made doing anything in the zone while the raid was attempting (and sometimes wiping and attempting again and again) to kill the mob close to an impossibility. With the recent influx into previously less populated early Kunark zones that the new epics have caused, these areas have become nearly as laggy as they were when Kunark first launched. I would hate to be utilizing a zone as we were told it was to be utilized, overland zones being mainly for soloing, and suddenly be unable to continue my questing or hunting simply because a contested epic spawns and the zone becomes overpopulated. So I ask that you at least keep this in mind when you consider adding contested raid targets to areas that non-raiders are attempting to enjoy their playstyle in. </blockquote>All I have to say is Ha Ha Ha.  I guess getting an entire expansion dedicated to solo/group play wasn't enough.  Now that something comes along that will probably not affect your gameplay in the least, you have to spout up and say get rid of it.  Dude, please just go away, be happy that the devs have decided that the raiding community is no longer a priority and be happy with that, no need sticking your nose where it doesn't belong.</blockquote><p>WTSF? Raiders not the priority? You get money, loot, status, AA, more story, better encounters, and a HECK of alot more dungeons than those that group up. <span style="color: #cc0000;"><b>Groups get a total of 5 group zones, 3 or which are the most frequently done compared to... what is it now 12 T8 raid dungeons, 9 dieties (lost count) and now a slew of more raid targets? </b></span>Serioursly WT freak? Do I want these mobs to not be in the game? No, I don't care for them... I might get lucky and my casual raid force might actually get one, but saying that the entire expansion was dedicated to the solo/group and not raid is just royal grade B.S.</p><p>Quiickest/most effective way to get Masters: Raiding</p><p>Quickest/most effective way to get status: Raiding</p><p>Most dungeons on T8: Raiders</p><p>Most money per mob/player: Raiders</p><p>Most effective way to get money: Selling overpriced masters from Raids.</p><p>This expansion was geared towards 2 types of mindset: Soloers, and Raiders... Not all soloers, mind you, just the very effective ones. The rest of the community (grouping) got the shaft in content, with 3 public dungeons, 5 instances, which I might add RAIDERS STILL GET TO DO. Be happy you raid and get so many benefits for being part of the raid group you are in, but NEVER say that you are not the priority.</p></blockquote>Think you got it backwards.. group/solo players get 4 over land zones, 3 contested dungeons, 5 instance zones. tons of solo and groupable contested nameds.Thats all new in t8. Raiders get 7 new t8 raid zones I seen 1 contested ape in fens and the new avatars. Dont even tell me that you think raiders get more of a play ground than group/solo players do. I like to know how you get 12 t8 raid zones out of the 7 that i know of.. WOW i totaly missed 5 whole t8 raid zones? pawbuster, overking, protectors realm, thuga, leviathian, venril sathir and veeshans peak.</blockquote>No, you're not understanding the distinction that was being made. Group content....not solo/group since content designed to be soloable isn't really group content, is it? The lack of actual decent group content is weaksauce in RoK.

[Ristan]

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Most servers are PvE and that is what I am focusing on this discussion. So best status still is Raids. 1.5k-2k+ guild status per kill per member of the raid = 36k-48k guild status per named kill. Lets say your guild does PR 2 times a week, that is on that instance alone, 7 encounters each at minimum of 36k guild status, which equates to 252k status per run, or 504k status every week for your guild. Unless you guild has a huge group of people doing writs every waking moment, they will not even get close to this amount of status from just 2 runs of the easiest multi-boss T8 raid in the game atm. On top of this, I have seen 1-3 masters drop on every one of those named mobs... so from 7+ masters per run, and 24+ plat per named kill is 168 plat spread among the raiders equally. Mind you, this is just from one night's worth of work. If I could sign in for an hour or 2 and get 7 plat and a chance at atleast 7 masters per night... heck, that would be awesome! I have run dungeons for entire weeks and not seen that many masters drop.</p></blockquote><p>ok...i'd like to debunct some of this.  For the "easiest" multi boss t8 raid zone my guild has gotten 2 masters out of PR, the named do not drop 24plat, it's more like 10-18 (which most of goes to the repair bot for my CASUAL raid guild).  </p><p>On the other side of the coin, I have seen 3 masters drop in 1 CoA run that took an hour.</p><p>Total masters I've seen drop in instances: 11</p><p>Total Masters I've seen drop in Protectors realm: 2</p><p>I make more money spending 2 hours killing trash solo in skyfire then I do in either Instance or Raid zones (6p anyone?) on just the trash drops...so please before you try saying that raiders are the richest spoiled players, remember that in the raiding community there are the "elite" and everyone else.</p><p><---soloer, grouper and RAIDER. I do agree that RoK did fall short on group content, however disputedly some of the best tank gear actually drops in instance zones not raid zones.</p><p> My opinion of the new "contested" mobs in overland zones, is that it will turn into another "raid guild" contested gank fest.  The x2 in the jungle don't last long, and I know of many raid guilds who camp those contested just like the other contested in other zones.  The intended guilds (casual raid guilds) will have very little shot at getting these contested before a 24/7 raiding guild gets them...so it is somewhat of a pointless update.  Have had the x2 taken from our guild while trying to form up for it, we don't even bother anymore.</p><p><img src="http://kyrainetheranger.tripod.com/animatedsig.gif" border="0" alt="" width="400" height="100" /></p>

[Wildmage]

<cite>Splorch wrote:</cite><blockquote>Have you ever seen the zone split into multiple zones when one gets flooded? yeah... the majority of your guys arguments fail right there.Second, even as soloers do you people honestly spend endless hours in the same zone over and over and over? I think I finished every quest in the expansion in what... 3 days of loose playing? So what do you do once you finish your easy quests? kill solo mobs and hope a random master drops?I'm sympathetic to soloers as I do it quite often, but yeah... you don't have much weight behind your words.Third, if these mobs are of difficulty for casual guilds say such as mine, they might be up for 10-15 minutes tops once someone comes across them having spawned(and some idiot spams the channel going "omg... i just saw this big dragon and yeah, its like at X, Y, Z coordinate, and yeah, people are trying to form up but I want to see some awesome guild [I cannot control my vocabulary] it"<img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" /> then its going to be crushed and forgotten.Stop crying about the addition of content. The developers should be fixing the problems of the game true true, but yeah, we all know that'll never happen. Might as well accept the dog bones.</blockquote>sorry but not it doesn't the trigger of instancing a zone is somewhere between 90-80 people in the zone, the massive lag caused by raids results just from a concentration of 24+ people all fighting in the same place, instancing of overland will do NOTHING to help this problem.Yeah soloers take longer to go through the quest lines we are not blinged out in fabled raid gear and master 1s from the previous expansion so there was a learning curve with the higher difficulty, aquiring quest gear, and in some cases changing tactics to handle the solo mobs.   10-15 minutes assume they don't wipe over and over again like headless horseman raids often did taking over an hour of lag freezing the zone.Its additional content the devs said prior to RoK was wasteful and wasn't going to be included in the expansion they have taken a 180 degree flip on the issue and we want answers.

[Martrae]

And I've yet to see a master drop in an instance. All your anecdotal evidence proves is that your RNG is better than mine and Freliant's kicks both our tushes. Fact remains that more zones=more named=more changes at a non-wood chest.

[Guy De Alsace]

<p>What boggles me is that SOE have stated that overland zones are meant to be casual/soloer oriented fun zones - at least that was the design ethic in the current releases. What this meant in general was that all the fun was removed from the overland zones and tedium layered thickly upon the ground.</p><p>Now they come along and say "oh yes, its ok to bung a <b>x4 epic</b> in an overland zone but not grouped mobs, 2 arrow ups or heroics". Head scratching time all round. History has already shown that contested epics are simply not doable with a casual guild for reasons already stated. Why try again to introduce something thats already been shown not to work before anyway.</p><p>The best way to introduce casual epics is to put some x2's that are tougher than a single group mob but not unduly so and that drops legendary loot maximum. That way you can try and have a fun raid and the professional raiders wont be interested in it because it drops inferior loot. A x4 that drops fabled will be up for approximately 1 minute before its taken down in farm mode by the full-time raiders.</p><p>Look what happens on a smaller scale...you get a quest mob that looks like a named - it drops no loot and gives no AA but every bugger that sees it tries to kill it because it looks like a named and might drop decent loot. Result being the named people need for quests constantly gets iced by people casually farming. </p>

[einar4]

<cite>-Arctura- wrote:</cite><blockquote>(( no offence, but this game has nothing on EQ1 as far as dangerous zones go hehe..Ever been to old original Kithicor Forest at Night?That Was FUN!!!!!!!! So... so very fun. (because it was scary and deadly! <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" />)</blockquote><p> Kithicor was never dangerous at all.  I just ran along the zone wall. </p>

[xpraetorianx]

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sabutai wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gwyneth@Najena wrote:</cite><blockquote>In the test update notes, it mentions the inclusion of contested raid targets in overland Kunark zones, the Domini. I implore the developers to reconsider an addition such as this. While this may be very exciting for those who hit these targets, it can be a nightmare for people who are trying to utilize the zone. Zones which may have been completely lag free for players questing or hunting mobs in the zone suddenly become like slogging through molasses when a raid zones in to battle a contested raid target. This was constantly the case for Loping Plains when the Headless Horseman would pop. I would be merrily questing along, experiencing no lag at all, and then a raid zoned in to hit him. Immediately, my framerate would go down to nothing and I could barely get around in Somborn, let alone the rest of the zone. It made doing anything in the zone while the raid was attempting (and sometimes wiping and attempting again and again) to kill the mob close to an impossibility. With the recent influx into previously less populated early Kunark zones that the new epics have caused, these areas have become nearly as laggy as they were when Kunark first launched. I would hate to be utilizing a zone as we were told it was to be utilized, overland zones being mainly for soloing, and suddenly be unable to continue my questing or hunting simply because a contested epic spawns and the zone becomes overpopulated. So I ask that you at least keep this in mind when you consider adding contested raid targets to areas that non-raiders are attempting to enjoy their playstyle in. </blockquote>All I have to say is Ha Ha Ha.  I guess getting an entire expansion dedicated to solo/group play wasn't enough.  Now that something comes along that will probably not affect your gameplay in the least, you have to spout up and say get rid of it.  Dude, please just go away, be happy that the devs have decided that the raiding community is no longer a priority and be happy with that, no need sticking your nose where it doesn't belong.</blockquote><p>WTSF? Raiders not the priority? You get money, loot, status, AA, more story, better encounters, and a HECK of alot more dungeons than those that group up. Groups get a total of 5 group zones, 3 or which are the most frequently done compared to... what is it now 12 T8 raid dungeons, 9 dieties (lost count) and now a slew of more raid targets? Serioursly WT freak? Do I want these mobs to not be in the game? No, I don't care for them... I might get lucky and my casual raid force might actually get one, but saying that the entire expansion was dedicated to the solo/group and not raid is just royal grade B.S.</p><p>Quiickest/most effective way to get Masters: Raiding</p><p>Quickest/most effective way to get status: Raiding</p><p>Most dungeons on T8: Raiders</p><p>Most money per mob/player: Raiders</p><p>Most effective way to get money: Selling overpriced masters from Raids.</p><p>This expansion was geared towards 2 types of mindset: Soloers, and Raiders... Not all soloers, mind you, just the very effective ones. The rest of the community (grouping) got the shaft in content, with 3 public dungeons, 5 instances, which I might add RAIDERS STILL GET TO DO. Be happy you raid and get so many benefits for being part of the raid group you are in, but NEVER say that you are not the priority.</p></blockquote>I dont know what your talking about...so lets go over it.<p>Quiickest/most effective way to get Masters: Raiding (wrong)</p><b>In the months of raiding ROK my guild has gotten maybe a dozen masters...not exactly the greatest ratio.</b><p>Quickest/most effective way to get status: Raiding (wrong)</p><b>Other than protectors Realm raid mobs, a casual guild big on writs and tradeskilling can EXP faster by far.  Just because your slow doesnt mean your being left out.</b><p>Most dungeons on T8: Raiders (true..but)</p><b>Risk vs reward.  Plus some of the best items in game drop from the group dungeons... so the raid items arnt all they are cracked up to be.</b><p>Most money per mob/player: Raiders (to an extent)</p><b>When I wipe to 0% armor learning a new mob that still isnt a given kill each time.. my repair cost is close to 70g fully broken.  The most money in an Epic Chest is 24pp (rarely..more like 16-19pp)... when Ive broken all my gear 10 times over on a mob like Leviathan who breaks close to 80% armor per AOE... yeah my Money aint going anywhere.  tyvm. You think you have money issues? Try again... next argument please.</b><p>Most effective way to get money: Selling overpriced masters from Raids. (wrong)</p><b>That would be Farmers selling over priced masters... not the raiders.. THE RAIDERS NEED THEM!!!!  I like many other people are reduced to farming collection items or soloing your CASUAL entire massive zone content for all ROK for Solo items to sell.  Thats right, the entire continent of Kunark....Now you say.. wahhh small epic in an overland zone... with how big a zone is and the one epic dot that would appear on that map...compared to all the rest of the area..please.   Dont forget, all the ROK overland zones get multiple instances.. if one is too laggy switch.. but thats too much to ask I suppose.I am of the mindset that people who complain about raiding only complain because they can't currently do it.  Anyone who wants to raid CAN raid.  They just find excuses not to while they complain that they dont have enough content.  Casual gamers are like democrats... raiders are like republicans.  Thats right I said it. lol. </b>

[Wildmage]

<cite>Guy De Alsace wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>What boggles me is that SOE have stated that overland zones are meant to be casual/soloer oriented fun zones - at least that was the design ethic in the current releases. What this meant in general was that all the fun was removed from the overland zones and tedium layered thickly upon the ground.</p><p>Now they come along and say "oh yes, its ok to bung a <b>x4 epic</b> in an overland zone but not grouped mobs, 2 arrow ups or heroics". Head scratching time all round. History has already shown that contested epics are simply not doable with a casual guild for reasons already stated. Why try again to introduce something thats already been shown not to work before anyway.</p><p>The best way to introduce casual epics is to put some x2's that are tougher than a single group mob but not unduly so and that drops legendary loot maximum. That way you can try and have a fun raid and the professional raiders wont be interested in it because it drops inferior loot. A x4 that drops fabled will be up for approximately 1 minute before its taken down in farm mode by the full-time raiders.</p><p>Look what happens on a smaller scale...you get a quest mob that looks like a named - it drops no loot and gives no AA but every bugger that sees it tries to kill it because it looks like a named and might drop decent loot. Result being the named people need for quests constantly gets iced by people casually farming. </p></blockquote>exactly epic mobs need to be kept in instances and dungeons and not wandering the overland period.

[Macross_JR]

For all of you people stating epic's should stay in instances get bent.  I'm not in a "hardcore" raiding guild, hell, we are still doing kos raids to get back into raiding form.  But I miss the dangers of adventuring, the threat of something coming from behind me and beating the crap out of me.  This game needs it, and needs it soon.  I still say one of the major down falls of this game was the whole "encounter" thing they did.

[Freliant]

<cite>Gimbel@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>For all of you people stating epic's should stay in instances get bent.  I'm not in a "hardcore" raiding guild, hell, we are still doing kos raids to get back into raiding form.  But I miss the dangers of adventuring, the threat of something coming from behind me and beating the crap out of me.  This game needs it, and needs it soon.  I still say one of the major down falls of this game was the whole "encounter" thing they did.</blockquote><p>lol, if you want danger, go try to solo KC, Chardok or Seb. One wrong turn, and you are mob meat.</p><p>Like I said before, I have no qualms about having overland epics... as long as there is a system in place to allow casual and maybe pickup raids to do this content  consistantly, instead of it being locked by the hardcore raiders. If its just gonna be the same thing we have seen the past 80 levels, then forget it, I could care less since its only going to 1% of 1% of the entire server population. In Kithicor, its going to CL for example. 24 excelent players that have the time and means to do anything they wish. Pre-emptive grats on the disco guys...</p>

[krrr]

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimbel@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>For all of you people stating epic's should stay in instances get bent.  I'm not in a "hardcore" raiding guild, hell, we are still doing kos raids to get back into raiding form.  But I miss the dangers of adventuring, the threat of something coming from behind me and beating the crap out of me.  This game needs it, and needs it soon.  I still say one of the major down falls of this game was the whole "encounter" thing they did.</blockquote><p>lol, if you want danger, go try to solo KC, Chardok or Seb. One wrong turn, and you are mob meat.</p><p>Like I said before, I have no qualms about having overland epics... as long as there is a system in place to allow casual and maybe pickup raids to do this content  consistantly, instead of it being locked by the hardcore raiders. If its just gonna be the same thing we have seen the past 80 levels, then forget it, I could care less since its only going to 1% of 1% of the entire server population. In Kithicor, its going to CL for example. 24 excelent players that have the time and means to do anything they wish. Pre-emptive grats on the disco guys...</p></blockquote>You want system that will allow casuals to try it? It`s very simple: we need MUCH MORE contested mobs. And by MUCH MORE, i mean whole lot  more (50-100). Why? Because if there is always 10-15 mobs up, there is no possible way for someone to lockdown their spawns. But I already know what happens if developers do such thing, you will start crying that developers only think about raider and hard-core ppl. 

[Fox_Roshak]

personally I see not a single problem with this? Lagging the zone? obviously your not on Antonia Byale where the lag never goes away, we consistantly have 2 overland zone for everything in RoK. as for casual guilds not getting to the mob, we must first figure out what SoE considers a casual rading guild...any takers on that?

[BigChiefJJ]

<cite>Darlock@Runnyeye wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Gimbel@Permafrost wrote:</cite><blockquote>For all of you people stating epic's should stay in instances get bent.  I'm not in a "hardcore" raiding guild, hell, we are still doing kos raids to get back into raiding form.  But I miss the dangers of adventuring, the threat of something coming from behind me and beating the crap out of me.  This game needs it, and needs it soon.  I still say one of the major down falls of this game was the whole "encounter" thing they did.</blockquote><p>lol, if you want danger, go try to solo KC, Chardok or Seb. One wrong turn, and you are mob meat.</p><p>Like I said before, I have no qualms about having overland epics... as long as there is a system in place to allow casual and maybe pickup raids to do this content  consistantly, instead of it being locked by the hardcore raiders. If its just gonna be the same thing we have seen the past 80 levels, then forget it, I could care less since its only going to 1% of 1% of the entire server population. In Kithicor, its going to CL for example. 24 excelent players that have the time and means to do anything they wish. Pre-emptive grats on the disco guys...</p></blockquote>You want system that will allow casuals to try it? It`s very simple: we need MUCH MORE contested mobs. And by MUCH MORE, i mean whole lot  more (50-100). Why? Because if there is always 10-15 mobs up, there is no possible way for someone to lockdown their spawns. But I already know what happens if developers do such thing, you will start crying that developers only think about raider and hard-core ppl. </blockquote><p>I'm not sure how this is implemented but if the mobs were actually spawn mobs (like the cube mobs in KOS) then there would not be the gank fest that people are worried about from the ‘24/7' raid guilds that could have the mobs locked down.  Precedents have been set that the force that spawns a mob has rites to that mob.  The items needed to spawn the mobs could be quest rewards or drops from some of the T1 raids or various instances/mobs.  </p>

[Morrias]

<p> I dont know what you guys are talking about lagging, but, having contested mobs in overland zones is something that really needs to stay imo, if for nothing else because the rest of the game is like that, and even kunark is with the tangrin and such..</p><p> But if the lag really bothers you so much just go watch the raiders get pwnt by the contested the first couple of pulls.. always fun!! <img src="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" /></p><p> Although with the way SoE has been screwing up the game, the contested are prolly gonna die in 3 [I cannot control my vocabulary] hits anyway..</p>

[TaleraRis]

<cite>Splorch wrote:</cite><blockquote>Second, even as soloers do you people honestly spend endless hours in the same zone over and over and over? I think I finished every quest in the expansion in what... 3 days of loose playing? </blockquote>Actually, yes. I prefer to try to figure quests out myself and only get help if I'm completely stuck and have no idea what needs to be done. Most quests, especially recently, give you some little push or clue, so you can figure out even tricky ones with a bit of thought. But this results in my spending quite a bit of time in these zones, night after night, working my way through the questlines. So I do end up with quite a few hours clocked in the zone, over and over and over, as you put it. I'm also an obsessive explorer, and so I tend to leave no stone unturned in a new zone. Other instances of a zone won't necessarily solve the problem, either. If enough people zone in to make it unbearably laggy, but not enough to ping off the creation of a new instance, then someone attempting to enjoy the content in the zone will still be inconvenienced. Also, toward a previous comment. I'm not against anti-raiding. I'm a non-raider in this game by choice, but I have no issues that others enjoy playing the game that way. But I am concerned when content is added that puts one playstyle at the mercy of the whims of those of another playstyle. Which is what I ask the developers to keep in mind when they make a change like this. It's not just about who the content is designed for, but who else the content is going to effect and how that content will effect them.

[denmom]

I have to point out something about the "new" ranging epics...All of the old world maps have free-ranging epics in them.  This list is from memory.Antonica has Ladon.Commonlnds has a dragon as well.Thundering Steppes has Coldtooth the epic molerat with three friends (I've seen them up several times), Grimfeather, Braegana the Gailspear, Doomsquall.Nek Forest has the spider, can't remember how to spell the name, with two friends.Enchanted Lands has Ix the Overseer, Cragshell, and an epic Nightblood.Zek has the six or eight epic orcs by DFC right where the Druzaic shrine spawnsRivervale has one epic Nightblood that I know of in the back that roams by a waterfall, and I think there's an epic lamia.Feerrott has Acrimoniad, and I think another but not sure.Cazic Thule has a dragon.Everfrost has everyone's favourite, Dreadwake.  Also Krathuk, with friends, and the roaming epic by the Numbfoot chief.Lavastorm has one epic that spawns not too far in.  He's spawned on my group twice, have no idea how he's triggered or if it's a free-ranger.  There's another where the emissions are, another in the far back of Lavastorm in the lavapool along with friends.  Maiden's Gulch, but you have to trigger that one by speaking to Sebir for Speak As A Dragon.This is all off the top of my head.  So the idea of free-range epics isn't anything new.I'm not saying the fears of lag and such aren't valid, not saying that at all.  I'm just pointing out that this has been done before, there is precedence, and part of content from the beginning.

[Rahatmattata]

<cite>Freliant wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Belaythien wrote:</cite><blockquote><span class="postbody">Lag isn't what bugs me with contested targets. It's yet another "you'll never even get a chance to touch it" thing.It says in the note:"They are contested raid targets in overland RoK zones <b>intended for casual raid guilds</b> in difficulty."That's like saying money lieing in the street is only intended for the poor <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img mce_tsrc=" />" width="15" height="15" />. Casual raid guilds never get a shot at contested raid targets. By the time a casual raid has enough people to try it, a 7-days-a-week raid com killed that mob 10 times over.It's almost impossible for casual raids to even get a shot at EoF contesteds. Does anybody really think T8 contested mobs will not be farmed solely by 24/7 raid coms? Like ... oh I don't know ... the past few years or so </span><img src="/eq2/images/smilies/97ada74b88049a6d50a6ed40898a03d7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" width="15" height="15" />.</blockquote><p>This is exactly what came to mind. The issue is, that there is no way in our current game mechanics that a casual or pickup raid can do epic contested content BEFORE a hard-core guild can. And lets face it, once they have killed it once, its on a farm basis since they will just count 6 days from the moment it dies and have the raid force up as its popping up next week.</p><p>Its sad really, but what can one do other than watch... Maybe the rewards will not be so good that the hardcore raiders will take pity and leave em up for the rest of the server... but I doubt that.</p></blockquote>One can watch the mob die and get a time of death. Then one can count 6 days. Then one can have his raid force setup and ready to go during the spawn window.As for the mobs themselves... why not put them in some place like Sebiliss or Chardok or something? A x2 dinosaur roaming outside is cool... but castle mistmoore did well having some x2 contested inside the dungeon.

[Noaani]

<p>As much as I would like to comment on some of the many factually incorrect statements in this thread (from people both for and against this addition to the game), I will simply quote a developer talking about another issue, as I find this quote to be 100% relevent to this particular discussion...</p><p><cite>Lyndro-EQ2 wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>it is a very slippery slope once we start creating content around technical concerns.</blockquote><p>Now, to me, lag is a technical concern.</p><p>Although they should not make content that is rediculously overdetailed to the point of causing major lag on all but the fastest computer running in the room next to the server with a direct uninterrupted connection... they also should not even entertain the thought of not adding content they want to add to the game based on some people experiancing a small amount of lag due to it.</p><p>And yes, it will be a small number of people that experiance lag due to this content addition.</p><p>They have people who do nothing other than try to make the game run smoother for us than it does. These people concern themselves with the lag we may be experiancing, not the actual content developers.</p>

[Ama]

<p>Have a feeling with RoK technology developers are prepared for lag.  I'm betting what they have done in level designing terms is sectored off various zones putting invisible walls.  These invisible walls state where "Boundaries" are and for people not to render what is beyond that wall until it is crossed.  However this cannot be said for older zones.  </p><p>While there will be some lag I doubt it will be "HUGE" enough to impact the whole zone to the point it crashes.  I've been in Kunzar Jungle 1 zones with about 48-60 people going for Servilious and haven't seen a huge drop in performance.  </p>

[Oakum]

The only way I see for the dev's to make these contested strictly for casual raids is to have have a script or something to check the raid flags of the players in the raid and if their are too many too high for whatever limit they set, then the mob is non aggro to the raid. Of course like I said in the other thread, that could be worked around with non flagged alts of the raid guild.