I was shocked about what I heard in the noob chat channels this weekend.

[Kursa]

<p>Sorry if I'm posting rhetoric but I have the flu and I'm bored so please bear with me, lol.</p><p>Anyways, I was leveling a smaller toon and I was shocked to see how many people on the AB server actually bought gold from plat seller websites and then bragged about it on the channel chat 1-9. What made it worse was the fact of how many people actually attacked the few people who was against buying plat.</p><p>I thought it was odd that people would brag about this on a public channel but then again, I havent leveled a smaller toon in some time so I guess that's expected on the noob chat? I don't know. I was just shocked over the whole thing. Reported the users and then shut down the chat channel remembering why my other toons never had that chat channel opened in the first place.</p><p>For the new players, I do apologize on behalf on my server. That usually doesn't happen and If I were you, I would get rid of that chat channel lol</p>

[Aurumn]

I recently overheard a discussion where apparently several folks were under the impression that plat buying was currently enabled and <b>legal</b> on all servers. I suppose they got this impression from the changeover from SE to the new vendor for the SE servers or somesuch. They were corrected by some wiser folks, but it makes me a bit skittish that they heard something I didn't and SOE will activate legal RMT on all servers. /shiver

[Kursa]

<cite>Mezzmyrelda@Unrest wrote:</cite><blockquote>I recently overheard a discussion where apparently several folks were under the impression that plat buying was currently enabled and <b>legal</b> on all servers. I suppose they got this impression from the changeover from SE to the new vendor for the SE servers or somesuch. They were corrected by some wiser folks, but it makes me a bit skittish that they heard something I didn't and SOE will activate legal RMT on all servers. /shiver</blockquote><p>aye, that would be scarey. But, yes, I saw the article where Smedly was going to use a 3rd party plat selling service to weed out the chinese ones. However, these people were actually bragging about the websites they used to buy their plat.</p><p>When I told them they needed to be careful because some of those sites can use their CC information to buy accounts to further their plat selling agenda, they got on me like white on rice! It was nuts. I never, in my MMO life, ever got attacked by people <b>supporting</b> plat farmers. Especially on the AB server.</p><p>If people are misunderstanding Smedly's interview then I think a GM should intervene and show these people the error of their ways!</p>

[azekah]

First time mmo players might not realize that plat buying is against the EULA, I mean who reads those anyway?I am surprised that people were bragging about it and supporting it in chat though...I've never seen that on Befallen, and whenever it's come up there has been loads of people condemning it.

[Kursa]

<cite>azekah wrote:</cite><blockquote>I am surprised that people were bragging about it and supporting it in chat though...I've never seen that on Befallen, and whenever it's come up there has been loads of people condemning it.</blockquote>aye, that was the part that blew me away

[StormCinder]

<p>Kursa, you have the saddest sig banner I've ever seen.</p><p>OT:  Maybe I've been playing these games too long, but I would assume when starting a new game that plat buying at a site that does not have  the distributor/producer/developer in it's name/website, is a violation of the ToS/EULA.   Any game.</p><p>The influx of new players lately (everyone complained about low pop--be careful what you wish for) has brought a new dimension to playing.  I find myself relying more and more on my friends list for grouping, rather than responding to PUG requests.  What was considered a major selling point of EQ2 over other games a year or two ago was the maturity level.  That is clearly no longer the case.</p><p>This plat-buying issue is only one symptom of the larger problem.</p><p>SC</p>

[Vendolyn]

Ugh, they'll brag all they want until they see that their credit cards have been hijacked to buy plat seller accounts.Then SOE loses more money because of charge-backs from the plat sellers/credit card thieves.  I wish there was a simpler answer to it all ><

[NiteWolfe]

 RMT is slowly becoming more and more acceptable in a lot of players eyes. In some games its fully acceptable others such as this one it is not. In daoc it was against the rules also but as the game aged it became a acceptable thing to do even thu the rules never changed and Mythic grew more slack at enforcing it.. Cant say in 5 years of daoc game play that we ever had a problem with chinesse farmers. I think the companies that sold daoc gold got most of it from normal players that would sell off there plat to the gold sellers. On a personal level i dont really care if some one buys plat or not.

[Kursa]

<cite>StormCinder wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>Kursa, you have the saddest sig banner I've ever seen.</p></blockquote>aye. Read the link it gives. Tells you the whole story behind my kitty.

[Araxes]

Discussions in the level chats -- especially the 1-9 chat where the largest number of dweebs goon on their e-peens -- is like walking into a crowded bar: there are 1 or 2 serious conversations, 1 or long-running debates by the regulars ... and a whole LOT of pure stupidness.  

[interstellarmatter]

<p>It's funny that you bring this up.  Go to the WorldofWarcraft website.  They are now on a PR campaign to teach players the evils from buying from these plat farmers.</p>

[Dragowulf]

The real question is why would ANYONE need to buy plat in EQ2.  Is it not easy enough to make money?  Good you reported those kids.drago.

[azekah]

<cite>Dragowulf2 wrote:</cite><blockquote>The real question is why would ANYONE need to buy plat in EQ2.  Is it not easy enough to make money?  Good you reported those kids.drago.</blockquote>Because it's easy to outspend your income...and the culture of I want it now! is just as bad in games as irl.

[pandemonium73]

Wow, that /boggles the mind.  The only reason I can think of is that new players think plat buying is ok because they learn about it IN GAME, via spam.If I was a newbie player and saw a spam message by the same company in game regularly, I might think it was officially approved-- after all if it isn't kosher, why would SOE allow it to be advertised in game? (I know it is almost impossible for SOE to stop it, but I wouldn't know all about this if I were a newbie, and might just assume it's an ok part of mmo culture)

[Svann]

Its politics.  Repeat a lie enough and get enough people to repeat it with an air of authority and it can become fact.

[Rijacki]

<cite>Kursa wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Sorry if I'm posting rhetoric but I have the flu and I'm bored so please bear with me, lol.</p><p>Anyways, I was leveling a smaller toon and I was shocked to see how many people on the AB server actually bought gold from plat seller websites and then bragged about it on the channel chat 1-9. What made it worse was the fact of how many people actually attacked the few people who was against buying plat.</p><p>I thought it was odd that people would brag about this on a public channel but then again, I havent leveled a smaller toon in some time so I guess that's expected on the noob chat? I don't know. I was just shocked over the whole thing. Reported the users and then shut down the chat channel remembering why my other toons never had that chat channel opened in the first place.</p><p>For the new players, I do apologize on behalf on my server. That usually doesn't happen and If I were you, I would get rid of that chat channel lol</p></blockquote>Sadly, this reminds me of Firiona Vie in the last few months before I left EQ1 (with the rampant RMT as a prime reason).The high population on AB might be why it is becoming more prevalent there.  I just hope the GMs actually do follow through on the the reports (which I assume you followed up with petition).  It can't be a prevalence of Spam messages for plat sites making it look sanctioned, since the filter really has been quite effective at blocking those.  I think it's just an influx of want-it-now players.  It's not even that the economy is more out of control on AB than any other server (I'm regularly on 3 now, of which AB is one.. Venekor is A LOT higher in price and has more "reasons" to want upgrades).I won't even point a finger at LoN or the recent partnering with a RMT site since all official announcements about that have very clearly and pointedly mentioned it is for the Exchange servers only.How, though, would you go about educating the average player?  I think all new characters should have an additional dialogue box to click on before entering the game, one specifically addressing RMT and addressing it in simple, plain language while noting it's available through the Exchange service but only on those specific, and named, servers.  I think it should also be in the general MOTD for all characters.Lastly, I think it should be addressed in one of the purple question marks of the low-level character tutorial.As an aside, I also think that there should be an extra click box and tutorial box for new characters on the PvP server to notify them of the server type selected.  (It would be nice, too, for RP preferred servers, at least the tutorial, with an explanation of what RP is.)

[Kursa]

well, I am certainly glad that other people see my point of view. You should have been there Saturday night.

[Alis_Landale]

I really thought AB was the best server by far, well recently the number of stupid people, plat buyers and chinese farmers are making me think again abut it. Maybe all servers have these problems, but AB sometimes (specially those annoying forum trolls from AB) reminds me of wow community.

[Dragowulf]

<cite>Alis_Landale wrote:</cite><blockquote>I really thought AB was the best server by far, well recently the number of stupid people, plat buyers and chinese farmers are making me think again abut it. Maybe all servers have these problems, but AB sometimes (specially those annoying forum trolls from AB) reminds me of wow community.</blockquote>A bigger community (AB) is bound to have more whiners, plat sellers, kids, farmers, trolls, etc....so I wouldn't worry too much. drago.

[Nurvus]

I thankfully missed that conversation. 1-9 has been pretty annoying on AB lately, at least to me. Honestly, I'd take Chuck Norris jokes over some of the "mature" "debates" that go on there. I think it's just the curse of being the highest pop server. People that want a crowd probably want the <i>biggest</i> crowd. On the topic of plat buying, I haven't received a single spam in a long time. I don't even have anon or roleplay turned on. It's hard to think that it's mainly the new players that don't know any better that are buying it. The fact that the people in 1-9 argued <i>for</i> it supports that. If you didn't know any better, then you'd probably be pretty open to the idea that it's not okay. At least I would be. Perhaps I expect too much from people, though.

[Besual]

May be the bragging about plat seller websites is the new marketing of the RMT? Many spam tells / mails are getting blocked. Talking about <a href="http://www.<what_ever>.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">www.<what_ever>.com</a> in the T1 channel could lure some new players to this website. People like the easy way.

[Gladiia]

<cite>Alis_Landale wrote:</cite><blockquote>I really thought AB was the best server by far, well recently the number of stupid people, plat buyers and chinese farmers are making me think again abut it. Maybe all servers have these problems, but AB sometimes (specially those annoying forum trolls from AB) reminds me of wow community.</blockquote><p>There has been what seems to me a larger increase in new players lately than there usually is for the better part of the last few months.  Couple this with the numerous threads on "what server should I play on?"  and you see the top answer for being AB.  So not only is AB one of the most populated servers, but I bet they also got the largest influx of new players over the last few months.</p><p><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>Sadly, this reminds me of Firiona Vie in the last few months before I left EQ1 (with the rampant RMT as a prime reason).The high population on AB might be why it is becoming more prevalent there.  I just hope the GMs actually do follow through on the the reports (which I assume you followed up with petition).  It can't be a prevalence of Spam messages for plat sites making it look sanctioned, since the filter really has been quite effective at blocking those.  I think it's just an influx of want-it-now players.  It's not even that the economy is more out of control on AB than any other server (I'm regularly on 3 now, of which AB is one.. Venekor is A LOT higher in price and has more "reasons" to want upgrades).I won't even point a finger at LoN or the recent partnering with a RMT site since all official announcements about that have very clearly and pointedly mentioned it is for the Exchange servers only.How, though, would you go about educating the average player?  <b><i><u>I think all new characters should have an additional dialogue box to click on before entering the game, one specifically addressing RMT and addressing it in simple, plain language while noting it's available through the Exchange service but only on those specific, and named, servers.  </u></i></b>I think it should also be in the general MOTD for all characters.Lastly, I think it should be addressed in one of the purple question marks of the low-level character tutorial.As an aside, I also think that there should be an extra click box and tutorial box for new characters on the PvP server to notify them of the server type selected.  (It would be nice, too, for RP preferred servers, at least the tutorial, with an explanation of what RP is.)</blockquote><p>I think this would be  really good idea.   I truly believe there are many people that buy in game currency thinking it is legal when it is in fact not.  Of course I'm also not at all against the idea of people that are interested in buying stuff for whatever reason seeing that they can change servers to do so within the game rules <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> - Extra people wanting to buy things on my server makes me happy!  ... well at least the ones that do so legitametly.</p>

[Turb]

<p>Maybe these people were plat sellers, just using lowbie toons to advertise their web sites rather than doing a bunch of /tells that end up being killed by spam filters.</p><p>If I was selling plat from some site, I'd probably roll a toon and brag in 1-9.</p>

[Belaythien]

<cite>Besual wrote:</cite><blockquote>May be the bragging about plat seller websites is the new marketing of the RMT? Many spam tells / mails are getting blocked. Talking about <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.<what_ever>.com" target="_blank">www.<what_ever>.com</a> in the T1 channel could lure some new players to this website. People like the easy way.</blockquote>That was my first thought, too. On my server those farmers are rather unwelcome. I would really be surprised to see somebody defending them. And for some reason they left a few weeks ago, or at least I'm no longer seeing them in zones or on the broker. Either SOE did something about them or it simply wasn't profitable enough. Who knows. Guess playing on a less populated server has its advantages <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.

[StormCinder]

<cite>Gladiia@The Bazaar wrote:</cite><blockquote><p><cite>Rijacki wrote:</cite></p><blockquote>How, though, would you go about educating the average player?  <b><i><u>I think all new characters should have an additional dialogue box to click on before entering the game, one specifically addressing RMT and addressing it in simple, plain language while noting it's available through the Exchange service but only on those specific, and named, servers.  </u></i></b>I think it should also be in the general MOTD for all characters.Lastly, I think it should be addressed in one of the purple question marks of the low-level character tutorial.As an aside, I also think that there should be an extra click box and tutorial box for new characters on the PvP server to notify them of the server type selected.  (It would be nice, too, for RP preferred servers, at least the tutorial, with an explanation of what RP is.)</blockquote><p>I think this would be  really good idea.   I truly believe there are many people that buy in game currency thinking it is legal when it is in fact not.  Of course I'm also not at all against the idea of people that are interested in buying stuff for whatever reason seeing that they can change servers to do so within the game rules <img src="/eq2/images/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />" width="15" height="15" /> - Extra people wanting to buy things on my server makes me happy!  ... well at least the ones that do so legitametly.</p></blockquote><p>I wholeheartedly agree with these suggestions as well.  A popup on login for every toon would get everyone's attention, and let people know that SOE is serious about the situation.  Not just a MOTD, since those usually fly by on the chat window anyway.  And the purple question mark when a toon makes it's first cp is a good idea as well.</p><p>SC</p>

[SisterTheresa]

<cite>Kursa wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>StormCinder wrote:</cite> <blockquote><p>Kursa, you have the saddest sig banner I've ever seen.</p></blockquote>aye. Read the link it gives. Tells you the whole story behind my kitty.</blockquote><p>Pepper is baaad for the kitties.  I think they removed that option after Patches death IIRC</p><p>There have been worse topics alot on AB lately in 1-9.  Sad really some of those conversations.  Glad you /reported them.  Don't need their well, bad influence on the server.  Good chance they'll be crying when their card gets stolen.</p><p>I remember when I played a short stint on that other game, where a person had the courage to come in game and tell people not to go on this one site they saw on the forums.  The site sniffed out their account info and they were hacked, all their items and plat taken/sold, and they were left with just a mount and being naked.</p><p>And you know what people did?  Instead of thanking the person for letting them know the dangers of the website, they laughed and ridiculed them.  I thanked them though, it takes courage to admit a mistake and come out to say so warning others.</p><p>Sad, sad world we are in.</p>

[Jesdyr]

/report /petition  My problem is that with this LoN crap they have basically put in a form of RMT on all the servers. I just checked the EULA for LoN and while it basically says no trading outside of Sony systems, they don't seen to mind people posting RMT on their trade forums.

[Kursa]

<cite>Snafu@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Maybe these people were plat sellers, just using lowbie toons to advertise their web sites rather than doing a bunch of /tells that end up being killed by spam filters.</p><p>If I was selling plat from some site, I'd probably roll a toon and brag in 1-9.</p></blockquote>i dont know...they're english was too good and their attitudes were reminsicient of a 14 year old.  Not too many chinese sweatshops can pull off such a act quite so easily

[ValashokCatcaller]

<cite>SisterTheresa wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>There have been worse topics alot on AB lately in 1-9.  Sad really some of those conversations.  Glad you /reported them.  Don't need their well, bad influence on the server.  Good chance they'll be crying when their card gets stolen.</p></blockquote>You think it is bad there, come on over to Naggy between 5-10 PM or on the weekends.Although I think it is not a coincidence that 1-9 devolving into racist slurs and epeening coincides nicely with when the kids are home from school.That being said though, calling somebody a plat buyer on Naggy is still fightin' words.

[Jovie]

<p>Best thing anyone can do is to not participate in the 1-9 chat channel, as that is where all the attention starved individuals live.  HEY LOOK AT ME!!!!!!  (does a cartwheel).......</p><p>They ruin it on Guk, i'm sure every server out there has their own version of this.</p><p>Oh, and many many spam reports later, nothing is ever done.</p>

[Zmobie]

<cite>Snafu@Splitpaw wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>Maybe these people were plat sellers, just using lowbie toons to advertise their web sites rather than doing a bunch of /tells that end up being killed by spam filters.</p><p>If I was selling plat from some site, I'd probably roll a toon and brag in 1-9.</p></blockquote>That was my first impression as well. It's called <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viral_marketing" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Viral Marketing.</a>

[Rqron]

You don't have to go into the n00b channel on any server to see this, scan this forum here and you will find many that argue that plat buying is not against the eula and even if it is it is not against the law. What most people do not seem to understand is, that by clicking acceptance of the EULA they are entering into a <b>legally binding contract</b>. If you never did so before do it now and scroll down close to the end and read carefully about how serious binding this contract is..it is written by lawyers and enforceable by law..this makes breaking the EULA the same as breaking a law.( it works the same way then the rules and bylaws within a home owner association they are binding and enforceable by law, you are signing and agreeing to abide by it and it is your choice to do so or not) It is NOT just a rule, breaking a rule is minor in comparison with breaking a legal binding contract. It all depends how much SOE wants to go after them and if it wants the "negative publicity" of taking them to court. As per the contract, they have all the right in the world to do so.Unfortunately many of the average 13year olds have no concept of responsibility and no concept of consequences. (and the older n00bs don't care and with that telling the younger people that is is O.K. to do whatever they want.) Most 13 year olds don't care, they are minors and it will really not impact them but they're parents...and guess what? A lot of them can care less.J.C.

[Muxdy]

I find it staggering that people place a RL value on in game stuff. "A fool and his money are soon parted"

[Gladiia]

<cite>Muxdy@Antonia Bayle wrote:</cite><blockquote>I find it staggering that people place a RL value on in game stuff. "A fool and his money are soon parted"</blockquote>Wait, what?  I thought we were all paying $15+ a month for game stuff here?

[pandemonium73]

There really should be no reason to buy plat illegitimately in EQ2, since SOE has been kind enough to create an exchange server for those who feel the need. The only person I know who buys plat in EQ2 (I also know her irl) plays on Baazar and so is doing nothing wrong.  She would prefer to play with me on AB, but isn't willing to break the Eula, and because she is a nurse and a busy mom, she chooses to pay for her stuff because she has about 2-3 hours max a week to play her beloved MMO, and she wants to spend every minute adventuring, not harvesting, shiny hunting, or crafting.  But she is quite steadfast on not breaking rules, I'm sure many like her would gladly break the rules to be on the more active servers with their friends.I know two other folks (both irl friends) who buy plat in MMO's (one in FFX, the other in WoW -- lol tons of my irl friends are gamers, but none of them, except one and not on my server, play the same game as I do-- the heathens). One has just finished his medical internship and is very busy trying to establish a new practice, and the other is a snowboard instructor/bum who has all the time in the world and has no excuse, he just wants to play only a few hours a week because he has so many other games he plays too ( he's really awesome at EVERY instrument in the game "Rock Band", can't cheat at that one).All of these people are over 30, none of them are idiots or particularly immoral in any other aspect of their lives.  The rest of my gamer friends and myself, give them crap all the time for this, but they argue right back and all the arguments boil down to the fact that time= money and they have money and not time, they do not buy enough plat to be uber, just to compete, so screw us and the horse we rode in on, they aren't going away.Now I'm not condoning what they do (but neither am I gonna drop a good irl friend simply because we don't see eye to eye on the issue), but lots of folks seem to think it's only dipstick 13 year olds, or the types so dumb as to go into a chat channel and announce buying plat that are the worst offenders or representative of plat buyers in general.  If it were, I really don't think the problem would be as big as it is.  I don't like it either and I have no clue what the solution should be, I've written other posts on the topic, but most of the actions that SOE could take are fraught with the dangers of [Removed for Content] off or alienating lots of perfectly legit customers (i.e. cast a wide net and you catch lots more than just what you are fishing for).Now I have no idea why SOE wouldn't do more to track a chat channel if folks are bragging about it and go after those folks, but I think even if they did, they'd just be catching the vocal minority. I wish the problem were just that simple, but from personal knowledge I don't think it is. Know thy enemy folks, they are many and I'd wager many of them look and sound just like you, and you'd never know they're plat buyers unless they told you, and most of them won't.

[Dasein]

Contracts are not absolute, and certain clauses or even entire contracts may be ruled to be unenforceable for various reasons. EULAs and other click-though contracts are held to further scrutiny given their one-sided nature, as there is no negotiation involved. Thi is not to say EULAs are unenforceable, but simply that contracts are still subject to legal challenges. Further, merely violating the terms of a license agreement is not the same as violating the law. In general, violating a licensing agreement means the license is revoked. As for RMT, people first need to realize the scope of the RMT industry. Given the amount of money involved, and the tendency for transactions to be fairly small (this is supported by the Exchange whitepaper), one can extrapolate that a sizable chunk of the population of a game like EQ2 is involved in RMT. It would not be unreasonable to say that 25%-30% of the population may be involved or knowingly benefiting from RMT.One also needs to take into account changing perceptions about RMT. There was an article I read a few months back (on Terra Nova, iirc) looking at attitudes towards RMT on WoW servers, and it found on PvP servers, RMT was much more accepted, while it was generally shunned on PvE servers. The analogy they used was that PvP servers saw it as akin to speeding, while PvE servers saw it as similar to drunk driving. On PvP servers, RMT in moderation was seen as a necessity to compete, and thus was simply another part of the game, like it or not. I think this attitude is generally the one that is taking hold. RMT is simply part of the game, and something people can choose to partake of, should they desire. There's no real moral issue with it, because there's never been anything else. RMT is simply part of the MMO experience.

[Kursa]

<p>RMT isn't really the issue for me, per say; its the method in which the plat gets to the industry in the first place that really chaffs my <bleep></p><p>You've all seen it and we've all been a victim of it.  Chinese plat farmers (and other countries....Im using chinese because they make up the big chunk of em) will go endless hours farming for those precious rares and taking their group into SS dungeons and camping all the elites so that they can turn those virtual monies into real time profits.</p><p>It's pretty hard for us normal folk to compete against a cybersweatshop of 12 chinese players to one or two toons when it comes to farming a node or camping an elite.  Thank god, EQ2 has put an encounter lock to the harvest nodes now so that is a great step in the right direction.</p><p>I also believe SOE is really trying hard to stop these goons too.  Do you guys remember when we got /tell from shdfiohjwioejw about how <a href="http://www.wesuck.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">www.wesuck.com</a> offers great plat?  We got em every 3 minutes.  Now, I havent encountered one /tell in over 2 months.  Am I just plain lucky or did SOE actually do something?</p><p>RMT will be here. That's a sad fact. Some MMOS even embrace it.  that's a sad fact too.  DO I agree with RMT? No.  Do I put down those who do it? Well, maybe sometimes.  Do i like the process of how these farmers get the money? Hell no!</p><p>But to each their own.  Its a topic that's been raging on for years now.  If you buy plat. Great. Good for you.  Just dont advertise it on a public chat channel.  /tell your friends about it. Not the public channels.</p>

[Vonotar]

AB has such a high population it should not be surprising that it also has a high population of idiots, naturally they try to out-boast each other in 1-9 chat which is why you get every less credable stories appearing here...I always advice new players to ignore 1-9 and add the various custom channels that AB has to offer (Questing/Raiding/RFN/RM/RPEvents/RPLFG/ThePit)

[pandemonium73]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote>Contracts are not absolute, and certain clauses or even entire contracts may be ruled to be unenforceable for various reasons. EULAs and other click-though contracts are held to further scrutiny given their one-sided nature, as there is no negotiation involved. Thi is not to say EULAs are unenforceable, but simply that contracts are still subject to legal challenges. Further, merely violating the terms of a license agreement is not the same as violating the law. In general, violating a licensing agreement means the license is revoked. As for RMT, people first need to realize the scope of the RMT industry. <span style="color: #ffcc00;">Given the amount of money involved, and the tendency for transactions to be fairly small (this is supported by the Exchange whitepaper), one can extrapolate that a sizable chunk of the population of a game like EQ2 is involved in RMT. It would not be unreasonable to say that 25%-30% of the population may be involved or knowingly benefiting from RMT</span>.One also needs to take into account changing perceptions about RMT. There was an article I read a few months back (on Terra Nova, iirc) looking at attitudes towards RMT on WoW servers, and it found on PvP servers, RMT was much more accepted, while it was generally shunned on PvE servers. The analogy they used was that PvP servers saw it as akin to speeding, while PvE servers saw it as similar to drunk driving. On PvP servers, RMT in moderation was seen as a necessity to compete, and thus was simply another part of the game, like it or not. I think this attitude is generally the one that is taking hold. RMT is simply part of the game, and something people can choose to partake of, should they desire. There's no real moral issue with it,<span style="color: #ff9900;"> because there's never been anything else. RMT is simply part of the MMO experience.</span></blockquote>QFE Even though many of us don't like it, there is no example of an open online economy that has managed to remain relatively unregulated and stop or even significantly slow RMT. The only way to stop it would be to completely close the in game economy, and since that adds so much fun and interest to the game for legit players too, that would be disastrous.  I wrote another post on this way back when when someone compared plat selling to drug selling. The fact is there is no way to STOP a black market in an open economy, and to slow it significantly would require the kind of [Removed for Content]-esque tactics that would drive droves of legit players away, along with the very large population of people who participate in RMT.

[pandemonium73]

<cite>Kursa wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>RMT isn't really the issue for me, per say; its the method in which the plat gets to the industry in the first place that really chaffs my <bleep></p><p>You've all seen it and we've all been a victim of it.  Chinese plat farmers (and other countries....Im using chinese because they make up the big chunk of em) will go endless hours farming for those precious rares and taking their group into SS dungeons and camping all the elites so that they can turn those virtual monies into real time profits.</p><p>It's pretty hard for us normal folk to compete against a cybersweatshop of 12 chinese players to one or two toons when it comes to farming a node or camping an elite.  Thank god, EQ2 has put an encounter lock to the harvest nodes now so that is a great step in the right direction.</p><p>I also believe SOE is really trying hard to stop these goons too.  Do you guys remember when we got /tell from shdfiohjwioejw about how <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.wesuck.com/" target="_blank">www.wesuck.com</a> offers great plat?  We got em every 3 minutes.  Now, I havent encountered one /tell in over 2 months.  Am I just plain lucky or did SOE actually do something?</p><p>RMT will be here. That's a sad fact. Some MMOS even embrace it.  that's a sad fact too.  DO I agree with RMT? No.  Do I put down those who do it? Well, maybe sometimes.  Do i like the process of how these farmers get the money? Hell no!</p><p><span style="color: #ffcc00;">But to each their own.  Its a topic that's been raging on for years now.  If you buy plat. Great. Good for you.  Just dont advertise it on a public chat channel.  /tell your friends about it. Not the public channels.</span></p></blockquote>I really do agree about the public channels.  If they are regularly that bad, I do think SOE should at least try to catch them and then monitor those players.  Just because RMT is impossible to stop, doesn't mean we can't try to keep it at least a shameful thing to brag about.

[NiteWolfe]

 I find it funny that every time this comes up some one has to start saying how its ILLEGAL to buy plat. It is NOT illegal as a poster above me said the EULA in of it self is not truely a contract. Even if it was a binding contract the very worse a company could do would be to sue you for breach of contract IE money gained  NOT jail time! Saying some thing is ILLEGAL is saying that if caught you could face jail time for violation. The worse soe could so is try to sue you in a civil court for damages. To be honest i could sue you in civil court for looking at me wrong!  Lets not forget also that there are some law suits already in the works about plat selling. These have yet to be won so we will see where that even goes. It could all back fire on them one overseas court already decided that the ingame items you worked for were actualy yours and worth RL money even thu the eula says other wise. Now this case did not involve plat but some ingame items a player lost due to lack of proper sercuty in the game ( the player got hacked by some one and they took his items) The player took the company to court and he won a RL money award for property lost ingame. This suit could actually set a presedent in that if the farmers earned there plat within the game rules IE they didnt doup it. Then they could sell it for rl money since it was theres and as silly as it may seem ingame items in todays world do have RL money value. You can argue all day long about if its immoral to buy plat. Thats fine but it is defently NOT ILLEGAL to do so. You can not be sent to jail or fined (being fined is not the same as losing a law suit for money) for it there for its not ILLEGAL. Soe is already allowing  plat sales for rl money on all servers in a way. LON just makes soe the one who gets the RL money. Lets say i have lots of RL money but no plat i could easy find a player who had lots of plat and wanted lon booster packs. I could buy him the booster packs and then trade them to him  for his plat at what ever exchange rate we worked out. see i spent RL money to gain plat on a regular server ( have not done this. Just using it as a example). 

[Zehl_Ice-Fire]

FYI: /report does absolutely nothing alone. You have to /petition.

[Hollywood]

<cite>pandemonium73 wrote:</cite><blockquote>Wow, that /boggles the mind.  The only reason I can think of is that new players think plat buying is ok because they learn about it IN GAME, via spam.If I was a newbie player and saw a spam message by the same company in game regularly, I might think it was officially approved-- after all if it isn't kosher, why would SOE allow it to be advertised in game? (I know it is almost impossible for SOE to stop it, but I wouldn't know all about this if I were a newbie, and might just assume it's an ok part of mmo culture)</blockquote>That's the exact scenario that recently occured in my guild... young guy, new player, started asking in guild chat how long it takes for plat to be delivered after you buy it.  We're all "[Removed for Content]?"  and told him that wasn't cool at all... he explains to us that because he received the /tell about buying plat in game he thought it was allowed.  We corrected him on that notion and he supposedly tried to cancel the transaction, but I don't know how successful he was in that.  Not very, I would suspect.

[Kursa]

<p>if he bought plat from a personal /tell in game then chances are that website is going to have a festival with his credit card down the road.</p><p>it's a shame that good people fall for these things</p>

[Hollywood]

<cite>Kursa wrote:</cite><blockquote><p>if he bought plat from a personal /tell in game then chances are that website is going to have a festival with his credit card down the road.</p></blockquote>Heh, yeah, we warned him about that as well...

[Sedenten]

<cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote>You don't have to go into the n00b channel on any server to see this, scan this forum here and you will find many that argue that plat buying is not against the eula and even if it is it is not against the law. What most people do not seem to understand is, that by clicking acceptance of the EULA they are entering into a <b>legally binding contract</b>. If you never did so before do it now and scroll down close to the end and read carefully about how serious binding this contract is..it is written by lawyers and enforceable by law..this makes breaking the EULA the same as breaking a law.( it works the same way then the rules and bylaws within a home owner association they are binding and enforceable by law, you are signing and agreeing to abide by it and it is your choice to do so or not) It is NOT just a rule, breaking a rule is minor in comparison with breaking a legal binding contract. It all depends how much SOE wants to go after them and if it wants the "negative publicity" of taking them to court. As per the contract, they have all the right in the world to do so.Unfortunately many of the average 13year olds have no concept of responsibility and no concept of consequences. (and the older n00bs don't care and with that telling the younger people that is is O.K. to do whatever they want.) Most 13 year olds don't care, they are minors and it will really not impact them but they're parents...and guess what? A lot of them can care less.J.C.</blockquote><p>I've read the entire EULA for EQ1, EQ2, and several other games I play.  All the EULA means is regardless of the reasoning Sony can terminate your account at will or manipulate your characters.  So it's a more complete way of saying "if you do any of the following we can ban you" while covering themselves legally.  There's a ton more in there, but it's just filled with clauses that explain the rights Sony has to it's own game with respect to the player population.  You'll notice that giving someone else your account login info is also just as severe an offense as buying and selling platinum, items, and accounts on non-Exchange servers.  So if you gave a family member, wife, husband, or a good friend your login info, you're just as guilty as a plat seller when it comes to breaking the EULA.  </p><p>BTW, I'm not at all for in-game commerce, but stating facts concerning these EULA's, which people are quick to assume are legally binding where breaking a rule in them will get you arrested or worse.  That's simply not true.</p>

[pandemonium73]

<cite>Sedenten wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote>You don't have to go into the n00b channel on any server to see this, scan this forum here and you will find many that argue that plat buying is not against the eula and even if it is it is not against the law. What most people do not seem to understand is, that by clicking acceptance of the EULA they are entering into a <b>legally binding contract</b>. If you never did so before do it now and scroll down close to the end and read carefully about how serious binding this contract is..it is written by lawyers and enforceable by law..this makes breaking the EULA the same as breaking a law.( it works the same way then the rules and bylaws within a home owner association they are binding and enforceable by law, you are signing and agreeing to abide by it and it is your choice to do so or not) It is NOT just a rule, breaking a rule is minor in comparison with breaking a legal binding contract. It all depends how much SOE wants to go after them and if it wants the "negative publicity" of taking them to court. As per the contract, they have all the right in the world to do so.Unfortunately many of the average 13year olds have no concept of responsibility and no concept of consequences. (and the older n00bs don't care and with that telling the younger people that is is O.K. to do whatever they want.) Most 13 year olds don't care, they are minors and it will really not impact them but they're parents...and guess what? A lot of them can care less.J.C.</blockquote><p>I've read the entire EULA for EQ1, EQ2, and several other games I play.  All the EULA means is regardless of the reasoning Sony can terminate your account at will or manipulate your characters.  So it's a more complete way of saying "if you do any of the following we can ban you" while covering themselves legally.  There's a ton more in there, but it's just filled with clauses that explain the rights Sony has to it's own game with respect to the player population.  <span style="color: #ff9900;">You'll notice that giving someone else your account login info is also just as severe an offense as buying and selling platinum, items, and accounts on non-Exchange servers.  So if you gave a family member, wife, husband, or a good friend your login info, you're just as guilty as a plat seller when it comes to breaking the EULA.</span>  </p><p>BTW, I'm not at all for in-game commerce, but stating facts concerning these EULA's, which people are quick to assume are legally binding where breaking a rule in them will get you arrested or worse.  That's simply not true.</p></blockquote>Heh, now I know for a fact that LOTS of people do this and are often the folks who are most smug about anything others may do in game that they may think is naughty.  Frankly I don't see how plat buying can be considered cheating by most folks, while at the same time many of the these same folks don't consider account sharing cheating, as it gives you the same edge just using time instead of money.  (Yes I know that many who share accounts don't think of it as doing it to get an edge since they often play different toons on the same account-- But the fact is they ARE getting an edge).  I have to sleep and do chores and there are many things that limit my time in game. When I am not in game, not a single alt on my account makes any progression--no exp, no coin, no items.  That is not the case for folks sharing an account.  When one of them is asleep or off at work, the other is making exp, coin , and finding items (and the coin and items are often freely traded meaning even tho they may play seperate characters, they are both gaining an edge from having 2 people play the account).  And forget about the folks who share an account and play the same toon, they can get twice the progression as any one person can and that is plainly breaking the Eula to gain an edge.If you are an account sharer that lets your 5 year old run around on a lowbie alt, you are the exception because you are plainly not going to gain an edge from this. But if you have your teenager or your mate leveling your main or an alt up while you are gone, it's as much "cheating"as someone who buys plat.

[StormCinder]

<cite>pandemonium73 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sedenten wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote>You don't have to go into the n00b channel on any server to see this, scan this forum here and you will find many that argue that plat buying is not against the eula and even if it is it is not against the law. What most people do not seem to understand is, that by clicking acceptance of the EULA they are entering into a <b>legally binding contract</b>. If you never did so before do it now and scroll down close to the end and read carefully about how serious binding this contract is..it is written by lawyers and enforceable by law..this makes breaking the EULA the same as breaking a law.( it works the same way then the rules and bylaws within a home owner association they are binding and enforceable by law, you are signing and agreeing to abide by it and it is your choice to do so or not) It is NOT just a rule, breaking a rule is minor in comparison with breaking a legal binding contract. It all depends how much SOE wants to go after them and if it wants the "negative publicity" of taking them to court. As per the contract, they have all the right in the world to do so.Unfortunately many of the average 13year olds have no concept of responsibility and no concept of consequences. (and the older n00bs don't care and with that telling the younger people that is is O.K. to do whatever they want.) Most 13 year olds don't care, they are minors and it will really not impact them but they're parents...and guess what? A lot of them can care less.J.C.</blockquote><p>I've read the entire EULA for EQ1, EQ2, and several other games I play.  All the EULA means is regardless of the reasoning Sony can terminate your account at will or manipulate your characters.  So it's a more complete way of saying "if you do any of the following we can ban you" while covering themselves legally.  There's a ton more in there, but it's just filled with clauses that explain the rights Sony has to it's own game with respect to the player population.  <span style="color: #ff9900;">You'll notice that giving someone else your account login info is also just as severe an offense as buying and selling platinum, items, and accounts on non-Exchange servers.  So if you gave a family member, wife, husband, or a good friend your login info, you're just as guilty as a plat seller when it comes to breaking the EULA.</span>  </p><p>BTW, I'm not at all for in-game commerce, but stating facts concerning these EULA's, which people are quick to assume are legally binding where breaking a rule in them will get you arrested or worse.  That's simply not true.</p></blockquote>Heh, now I know for a fact that LOTS of people do this and are often the folks who are most smug about anything others may do in game that they may think is naughty.  Frankly I don't see how plat buying can be considered cheating by most folks, while at the same time many of the these same folks don't consider account sharing cheating, as it gives you the same edge just using time instead of money.  (Yes I know that many who share accounts don't think of it as doing it to get an edge since they often play different toons on the same account-- But the fact is they ARE getting an edge).  I have to sleep and do chores and there are many things that limit my time in game. When I am not in game, not a single alt on my account makes any progression--no exp, no coin, no items.  That is not the case for folks sharing an account.  When one of them is asleep or off at work, the other is making exp, coin , and finding items (and the coin and items are often freely traded meaning even tho they may play seperate characters, they are both gaining an edge from having 2 people play the account).  And forget about the folks who share an account and play the same toon, they can get twice the progression as any one person can and that is plainly breaking the Eula to gain an edge.<span style="color: #ff0000;">If you are an account sharer that lets your 5 year old run around on a lowbie alt, you are the exception because you are plainly not going to gain an edge from this.</span> But if you have your teenager or your mate leveling your main or an alt up while you are gone, it's as much "cheating"as someone who buys plat.</blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Still a EULA/ToS violation.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffffff;">SC</span></p><p>cut/paste:</p><p>You may not transfer or share your Account with anyone, except that if you are a parent or guardian, you may permit one child to use the Account instead of you (in which case you may not use that Account). You are liable for all activities conducted through the Account, and parents or guardians are liable for the activities of their child. Corporations and other entities are not eligible to procure Accounts. </p>

[pandemonium73]

<cite>StormCinder wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>pandemonium73 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sedenten wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite></cite><p>I've read the entire EULA for EQ1, EQ2, and several other games I play.  All the EULA means is regardless of the reasoning Sony can terminate your account at will or manipulate your characters.  So it's a more complete way of saying "if you do any of the following we can ban you" while covering themselves legally.  There's a ton more in there, but it's just filled with clauses that explain the rights Sony has to it's own game with respect to the player population.  <span style="color: #ff9900;">You'll notice that giving someone else your account login info is also just as severe an offense as buying and selling platinum, items, and accounts on non-Exchange servers.  So if you gave a family member, wife, husband, or a good friend your login info, you're just as guilty as a plat seller when it comes to breaking the EULA.</span>  </p><p>BTW, I'm not at all for in-game commerce, but stating facts concerning these EULA's, which people are quick to assume are legally binding where breaking a rule in them will get you arrested or worse.  That's simply not true.</p></blockquote>Heh, now I know for a fact that LOTS of people do this and are often the folks who are most smug about anything others may do in game that they may think is naughty.  Frankly I don't see how plat buying can be considered cheating by most folks, while at the same time many of the these same folks don't consider account sharing cheating, as it gives you the same edge just using time instead of money.  (Yes I know that many who share accounts don't think of it as doing it to get an edge since they often play different toons on the same account-- But the fact is they ARE getting an edge).  I have to sleep and do chores and there are many things that limit my time in game. When I am not in game, not a single alt on my account makes any progression--no exp, no coin, no items.  That is not the case for folks sharing an account.  When one of them is asleep or off at work, the other is making exp, coin , and finding items (and the coin and items are often freely traded meaning even tho they may play seperate characters, they are both gaining an edge from having 2 people play the account).  And forget about the folks who share an account and play the same toon, they can get twice the progression as any one person can and that is plainly breaking the Eula to gain an edge.<span style="color: #ff0000;">If you are an account sharer that lets your 5 year old run around on a lowbie alt, you are the exception because you are plainly not going to gain an edge from this.</span> But if you have your teenager or your mate leveling your main or an alt up while you are gone, it's as much "cheating"as someone who buys plat.</blockquote><p><span style="color: #ff0000;">Still a EULA/ToS violation.</span></p><p><span style="color: #ffffff;">SC</span></p><p>cut/paste:</p><p>You may not transfer or share your Account with anyone, except that if you are a parent or guardian, you may permit one child to use the Account instead of you (in which case you may not use that Account). You are liable for all activities conducted through the Account, and parents or guardians are liable for the activities of their child. Corporations and other entities are not eligible to procure Accounts. </p></blockquote>Yup you are right, they are still breaking the Eula. I just meant I can see their intentions are not as hypocritical as many account sharers who make a big noise about anything others are doing that THEY consider cheating, since they probably aren't gaining from the practice of letting their 5 year old run around.  But yup it's still a violation.I just hate the hypocracy of people who think "MY type of Eula violating is ok, but the way OTHERS violate the Eula, is cheating"  It's ALL a violation.

[Rqron]

<cite>Sedenten wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote>You don't have to go into the n00b channel on any server to see this, scan this forum here and you will find many that argue that plat buying is not against the eula and even if it is it is not against the law. What most people do not seem to understand is, that by clicking acceptance of the EULA they are entering into a <b>legally binding contract</b>. If you never did so before do it now and scroll down close to the end and read carefully about how serious binding this contract is..it is written by lawyers and enforceable by law..this makes breaking the EULA the same as breaking a law.( it works the same way then the rules and bylaws within a home owner association they are binding and enforceable by law, you are signing and agreeing to abide by it and it is your choice to do so or not) It is NOT just a rule, breaking a rule is minor in comparison with breaking a legal binding contract. It all depends how much SOE wants to go after them and if it wants the "negative publicity" of taking them to court. As per the contract, they have all the right in the world to do so.Unfortunately many of the average 13year olds have no concept of responsibility and no concept of consequences. (and the older n00bs don't care and with that telling the younger people that is is O.K. to do whatever they want.) Most 13 year olds don't care, they are minors and it will really not impact them but they're parents...and guess what? A lot of them can care less.J.C.</blockquote><p>I've read the entire EULA for EQ1, EQ2, and several other games I play.  All the EULA means is regardless of the reasoning Sony can terminate your account at will or manipulate your characters.  So it's a more complete way of saying "if you do any of the following we can ban you" while covering themselves legally.  There's a ton more in there, but it's just filled with clauses that explain the rights Sony has to it's own game with respect to the player population.  You'll notice that giving someone else your account login info is also just as severe an offense as buying and selling platinum, items, and accounts on non-Exchange servers.  So if you gave a family member, wife, husband, or a good friend your login info, you're just as guilty as a plat seller when it comes to breaking the EULA.  </p><p>BTW, I'm not at all for in-game commerce, but stating facts concerning these EULA's, which people are quick to assume are legally binding where breaking a rule in them will get you arrested or worse.  That's simply not true.</p></blockquote>So, it is not true? It is at SOEs discretion how far they want to take any break of the EULA. Talk to a lawyer if you don't believe that this EULA is a legally binding contract. I work at a college where criminal justice is part of the curriculum. Every one of the teachers has a PHD in criminal justice and every single one agrees with me that by clicking "I Agree" you are agreeing to a legally binding contract and that SOE can take you to court for breaking any part of the contract if they so chose. Will they do it? I guess it all comes down to what kind of consequences there are for them. If the outcome is  negative publicity because they go after a single minor player..I doubt they will.  It is a LOT cheaper for SOE to ban someone then to take them to court.  But if the outcome would be that they could recap a large sum of money because they could take out a whole bunch of plat farmers and it would be considered a positive issue in the eyes of the gamers and potential customers I bet they will enforce every line of this contract and take the offenders to court.J.C.

[pandemonium73]

<cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sedenten wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote>You don't have to go into the n00b channel on any server to see this, scan this forum here and you will find many that argue that plat buying is not against the eula and even if it is it is not against the law. What most people do not seem to understand is, that by clicking acceptance of the EULA they are entering into a <b>legally binding contract</b>. If you never did so before do it now and scroll down close to the end and read carefully about how serious binding this contract is..it is written by lawyers and enforceable by law..this makes breaking the EULA the same as breaking a law.( it works the same way then the rules and bylaws within a home owner association they are binding and enforceable by law, you are signing and agreeing to abide by it and it is your choice to do so or not) It is NOT just a rule, breaking a rule is minor in comparison with breaking a legal binding contract. It all depends how much SOE wants to go after them and if it wants the "negative publicity" of taking them to court. As per the contract, they have all the right in the world to do so.Unfortunately many of the average 13year olds have no concept of responsibility and no concept of consequences. (and the older n00bs don't care and with that telling the younger people that is is O.K. to do whatever they want.) Most 13 year olds don't care, they are minors and it will really not impact them but they're parents...and guess what? A lot of them can care less.J.C.</blockquote><p>I've read the entire EULA for EQ1, EQ2, and several other games I play.  All the EULA means is regardless of the reasoning Sony can terminate your account at will or manipulate your characters.  So it's a more complete way of saying "if you do any of the following we can ban you" while covering themselves legally.  There's a ton more in there, but it's just filled with clauses that explain the rights Sony has to it's own game with respect to the player population.  You'll notice that giving someone else your account login info is also just as severe an offense as buying and selling platinum, items, and accounts on non-Exchange servers.  So if you gave a family member, wife, husband, or a good friend your login info, you're just as guilty as a plat seller when it comes to breaking the EULA.  </p><p>BTW, I'm not at all for in-game commerce, but stating facts concerning these EULA's, which people are quick to assume are legally binding where breaking a rule in them will get you arrested or worse.  That's simply not true.</p></blockquote>So, it is not true? It is at SOEs discretion how far they want to take any break of the EULA. Talk to a lawyer if you don't believe that this EULA is a legally binding contract. I work at a college where criminal justice is part of the curriculum. Every one of the teachers has a PHD in criminal justice and every single one agrees with me that by clicking "I Agree" you are agreeing to a legally binding contract and that SOE can take you to court for breaking any part of the contract if they so chose. Will they do it? I guess it all comes down to what kind of consequences there are for them. If the outcome is  negative publicity because they go after a single minor player..I doubt they will.  It is a LOT cheaper for SOE to ban someone then to take them to court. <span style="color: #ff9900;"> But if the outcome would be that they could recap a large sum of money because they could take out a whole bunch of plat farmers and it would be considered a positive issue in the eyes of the gamers and potential customers I bet they will enforce every line of this contract and take the offenders to court.</span>J.C.</blockquote>And since you don't see SoE taking folks to court, or even banning more than the worst offenders, it seems like they have wisely decided that the extreme dragnet they would have to implement to catch every little violation is NOT in their financial interest (because of the large numbers of players they would lose and drive away), or they would be taking more folks to court.Oh and "plat farming" is not a violation. There are lots of legit players who do it. Selling that plat for real world gain is the violation.

[StormCinder]

<cite>pandemonium73 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sedenten wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote>You don't have to go into the n00b channel on any server to see this, scan this forum here and you will find many that argue that plat buying is not against the eula and even if it is it is not against the law. What most people do not seem to understand is, that by clicking acceptance of the EULA they are entering into a <b>legally binding contract</b>. If you never did so before do it now and scroll down close to the end and read carefully about how serious binding this contract is..it is written by lawyers and enforceable by law..this makes breaking the EULA the same as breaking a law.( it works the same way then the rules and bylaws within a home owner association they are binding and enforceable by law, you are signing and agreeing to abide by it and it is your choice to do so or not) It is NOT just a rule, breaking a rule is minor in comparison with breaking a legal binding contract. It all depends how much SOE wants to go after them and if it wants the "negative publicity" of taking them to court. As per the contract, they have all the right in the world to do so.Unfortunately many of the average 13year olds have no concept of responsibility and no concept of consequences. (and the older n00bs don't care and with that telling the younger people that is is O.K. to do whatever they want.) Most 13 year olds don't care, they are minors and it will really not impact them but they're parents...and guess what? A lot of them can care less.J.C.</blockquote><p>I've read the entire EULA for EQ1, EQ2, and several other games I play.  All the EULA means is regardless of the reasoning Sony can terminate your account at will or manipulate your characters.  So it's a more complete way of saying "if you do any of the following we can ban you" while covering themselves legally.  There's a ton more in there, but it's just filled with clauses that explain the rights Sony has to it's own game with respect to the player population.  You'll notice that giving someone else your account login info is also just as severe an offense as buying and selling platinum, items, and accounts on non-Exchange servers.  So if you gave a family member, wife, husband, or a good friend your login info, you're just as guilty as a plat seller when it comes to breaking the EULA.  </p><p>BTW, I'm not at all for in-game commerce, but stating facts concerning these EULA's, which people are quick to assume are legally binding where breaking a rule in them will get you arrested or worse.  That's simply not true.</p></blockquote>So, it is not true? It is at SOEs discretion how far they want to take any break of the EULA. Talk to a lawyer if you don't believe that this EULA is a legally binding contract. I work at a college where criminal justice is part of the curriculum. Every one of the teachers has a PHD in criminal justice and every single one agrees with me that by clicking "I Agree" you are agreeing to a legally binding contract and that SOE can take you to court for breaking any part of the contract if they so chose. Will they do it? I guess it all comes down to what kind of consequences there are for them. If the outcome is  negative publicity because they go after a single minor player..I doubt they will.  It is a LOT cheaper for SOE to ban someone then to take them to court. <span style="color: #ff9900;"> But if the outcome would be that they could recap a large sum of money because they could take out a whole bunch of plat farmers and it would be considered a positive issue in the eyes of the gamers and potential customers I bet they will enforce every line of this contract and take the offenders to court.</span>J.C.</blockquote>And since you don't see SoE taking folks to court, or even banning more than the worst offenders, it seems like they have wisely decided that the extreme dragnet they would have to implement to catch every little violation is NOT in their financial interest (because of the large numbers of players they would lose and drive away), or they would be taking more folks to court.Oh and "plat farming" is not a violation. There are lots of legit players who do it. Selling that plat for real world gain is the violation.</blockquote>Is it selling that's a violation.  Or is it buying?  Or both?

[pandemonium73]

<cite>StormCinder wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>pandemonium73 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sedenten wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote>You don't have to go into the n00b channel on any server to see this, scan this forum here and you will find many that argue that plat buying is not against the eula and even if it is it is not against the law. What most people do not seem to understand is, that by clicking acceptance of the EULA they are entering into a <b>legally binding contract</b>. If you never did so before do it now and scroll down close to the end and read carefully about how serious binding this contract is..it is written by lawyers and enforceable by law..this makes breaking the EULA the same as breaking a law.( it works the same way then the rules and bylaws within a home owner association they are binding and enforceable by law, you are signing and agreeing to abide by it and it is your choice to do so or not) It is NOT just a rule, breaking a rule is minor in comparison with breaking a legal binding contract. It all depends how much SOE wants to go after them and if it wants the "negative publicity" of taking them to court. As per the contract, they have all the right in the world to do so.Unfortunately many of the average 13year olds have no concept of responsibility and no concept of consequences. (and the older n00bs don't care and with that telling the younger people that is is O.K. to do whatever they want.) Most 13 year olds don't care, they are minors and it will really not impact them but they're parents...and guess what? A lot of them can care less.J.C.</blockquote><p>I've read the entire EULA for EQ1, EQ2, and several other games I play.  All the EULA means is regardless of the reasoning Sony can terminate your account at will or manipulate your characters.  So it's a more complete way of saying "if you do any of the following we can ban you" while covering themselves legally.  There's a ton more in there, but it's just filled with clauses that explain the rights Sony has to it's own game with respect to the player population.  You'll notice that giving someone else your account login info is also just as severe an offense as buying and selling platinum, items, and accounts on non-Exchange servers.  So if you gave a family member, wife, husband, or a good friend your login info, you're just as guilty as a plat seller when it comes to breaking the EULA.  </p><p>BTW, I'm not at all for in-game commerce, but stating facts concerning these EULA's, which people are quick to assume are legally binding where breaking a rule in them will get you arrested or worse.  That's simply not true.</p></blockquote>So, it is not true? It is at SOEs discretion how far they want to take any break of the EULA. Talk to a lawyer if you don't believe that this EULA is a legally binding contract. I work at a college where criminal justice is part of the curriculum. Every one of the teachers has a PHD in criminal justice and every single one agrees with me that by clicking "I Agree" you are agreeing to a legally binding contract and that SOE can take you to court for breaking any part of the contract if they so chose. Will they do it? I guess it all comes down to what kind of consequences there are for them. If the outcome is  negative publicity because they go after a single minor player..I doubt they will.  It is a LOT cheaper for SOE to ban someone then to take them to court. <span style="color: #ff9900;"> But if the outcome would be that they could recap a large sum of money because they could take out a whole bunch of plat farmers and it would be considered a positive issue in the eyes of the gamers and potential customers I bet they will enforce every line of this contract and take the offenders to court.</span>J.C.</blockquote>And since you don't see SoE taking folks to court, or even banning more than the worst offenders, it seems like they have wisely decided that the extreme dragnet they would have to implement to catch every little violation is NOT in their financial interest (because of the large numbers of players they would lose and drive away), or they would be taking more folks to court.Oh and "plat farming" is not a violation. There are lots of legit players who do it. Selling that plat for real world gain is the violation.</blockquote>Is it selling that's a violation.  Or is it buying?  Or both?</blockquote>I believe it is both-- any exchange of real world cash for in game cash is a violation no matter what side of the exchange you are on.This got me wondering -- is exchange for real world cash in exchange for in game gain (but not in game cash) also a violation?  Think paying someone to powerlevel you.  ( How does powerleveling work anyway? I've heard of it and seen it spammed, but do they take your account and raise it and give it back to you, or have you go on af while they play and raise you up? Just nosy)

[Rqron]

<cite>pandemonium73 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sedenten wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote>You don't have to go into the n00b channel on any server to see this, scan this forum here and you will find many that argue that plat buying is not against the eula and even if it is it is not against the law. What most people do not seem to understand is, that by clicking acceptance of the EULA they are entering into a <b>legally binding contract</b>. If you never did so before do it now and scroll down close to the end and read carefully about how serious binding this contract is..it is written by lawyers and enforceable by law..this makes breaking the EULA the same as breaking a law.( it works the same way then the rules and bylaws within a home owner association they are binding and enforceable by law, you are signing and agreeing to abide by it and it is your choice to do so or not) It is NOT just a rule, breaking a rule is minor in comparison with breaking a legal binding contract. It all depends how much SOE wants to go after them and if it wants the "negative publicity" of taking them to court. As per the contract, they have all the right in the world to do so.Unfortunately many of the average 13year olds have no concept of responsibility and no concept of consequences. (and the older n00bs don't care and with that telling the younger people that is is O.K. to do whatever they want.) Most 13 year olds don't care, they are minors and it will really not impact them but they're parents...and guess what? A lot of them can care less.J.C.</blockquote><p>I've read the entire EULA for EQ1, EQ2, and several other games I play.  All the EULA means is regardless of the reasoning Sony can terminate your account at will or manipulate your characters.  So it's a more complete way of saying "if you do any of the following we can ban you" while covering themselves legally.  There's a ton more in there, but it's just filled with clauses that explain the rights Sony has to it's own game with respect to the player population.  You'll notice that giving someone else your account login info is also just as severe an offense as buying and selling platinum, items, and accounts on non-Exchange servers.  So if you gave a family member, wife, husband, or a good friend your login info, you're just as guilty as a plat seller when it comes to breaking the EULA.  </p><p>BTW, I'm not at all for in-game commerce, but stating facts concerning these EULA's, which people are quick to assume are legally binding where breaking a rule in them will get you arrested or worse.  That's simply not true.</p></blockquote>So, it is not true? It is at SOEs discretion how far they want to take any break of the EULA. Talk to a lawyer if you don't believe that this EULA is a legally binding contract. I work at a college where criminal justice is part of the curriculum. Every one of the teachers has a PHD in criminal justice and every single one agrees with me that by clicking "I Agree" you are agreeing to a legally binding contract and that SOE can take you to court for breaking any part of the contract if they so chose. Will they do it? I guess it all comes down to what kind of consequences there are for them. If the outcome is  negative publicity because they go after a single minor player..I doubt they will.  It is a LOT cheaper for SOE to ban someone then to take them to court. <span style="color: #ff9900;"> But if the outcome would be that they could recap a large sum of money because they could take out a whole bunch of plat farmers and it would be considered a positive issue in the eyes of the gamers and potential customers I bet they will enforce every line of this contract and take the offenders to court.</span>J.C.</blockquote>And since you don't see SoE taking folks to court, or even banning more than the worst offenders, it seems like they have wisely decided that the extreme dragnet they would have to implement to catch every little violation is NOT in their financial interest (because of the large numbers of players they would lose and drive away), or they would be taking more folks to court.Oh and "plat farming" is not a violation. There are lots of legit players who do it. Selling that plat for real world gain is the violation.</blockquote>Correct, although the term plat farming is mostly used to describe characters who's sole purpose it is to farm and sell on the broker to make coin that then in return gets sold to others for RL coin. It very rarely gets used to describe legit players farming for they're  "in game use" .My point with all of this is that just because SOE  as you put it "wisely" does not go after people for braking the EULA does not mean they can't go after them if they chose to do so.  One just never know, it may come to a point that they will do it to set an example. This reminds me so much of the discussions we used to have when file sharing first came out and we  all would say.."the record companies will NEVER go after people who use file sharing" ..they would lose too many customers. We all thought that the legal disclaimer on the CD was nothing but meaningless mumbo jumbo that are just "rules" that nobody ever could enforce...well we where proven wrong. I guess it just depends on the threshold of the company and when the point is reached where they feel that more enforcement then just banning accounts will be needed. J.C.

[Rqron]

<cite>StormCinder wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>pandemonium73 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sedenten wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote>You don't have to go into the n00b channel on any server to see this, scan this forum here and you will find many that argue that plat buying is not against the eula and even if it is it is not against the law. What most people do not seem to understand is, that by clicking acceptance of the EULA they are entering into a <b>legally binding contract</b>. If you never did so before do it now and scroll down close to the end and read carefully about how serious binding this contract is..it is written by lawyers and enforceable by law..this makes breaking the EULA the same as breaking a law.( it works the same way then the rules and bylaws within a home owner association they are binding and enforceable by law, you are signing and agreeing to abide by it and it is your choice to do so or not) It is NOT just a rule, breaking a rule is minor in comparison with breaking a legal binding contract. It all depends how much SOE wants to go after them and if it wants the "negative publicity" of taking them to court. As per the contract, they have all the right in the world to do so.Unfortunately many of the average 13year olds have no concept of responsibility and no concept of consequences. (and the older n00bs don't care and with that telling the younger people that is is O.K. to do whatever they want.) Most 13 year olds don't care, they are minors and it will really not impact them but they're parents...and guess what? A lot of them can care less.J.C.</blockquote><p>I've read the entire EULA for EQ1, EQ2, and several other games I play.  All the EULA means is regardless of the reasoning Sony can terminate your account at will or manipulate your characters.  So it's a more complete way of saying "if you do any of the following we can ban you" while covering themselves legally.  There's a ton more in there, but it's just filled with clauses that explain the rights Sony has to it's own game with respect to the player population.  You'll notice that giving someone else your account login info is also just as severe an offense as buying and selling platinum, items, and accounts on non-Exchange servers.  So if you gave a family member, wife, husband, or a good friend your login info, you're just as guilty as a plat seller when it comes to breaking the EULA.  </p><p>BTW, I'm not at all for in-game commerce, but stating facts concerning these EULA's, which people are quick to assume are legally binding where breaking a rule in them will get you arrested or worse.  That's simply not true.</p></blockquote>So, it is not true? It is at SOEs discretion how far they want to take any break of the EULA. Talk to a lawyer if you don't believe that this EULA is a legally binding contract. I work at a college where criminal justice is part of the curriculum. Every one of the teachers has a PHD in criminal justice and every single one agrees with me that by clicking "I Agree" you are agreeing to a legally binding contract and that SOE can take you to court for breaking any part of the contract if they so chose. Will they do it? I guess it all comes down to what kind of consequences there are for them. If the outcome is  negative publicity because they go after a single minor player..I doubt they will.  It is a LOT cheaper for SOE to ban someone then to take them to court. <span style="color: #ff9900;"> But if the outcome would be that they could recap a large sum of money because they could take out a whole bunch of plat farmers and it would be considered a positive issue in the eyes of the gamers and potential customers I bet they will enforce every line of this contract and take the offenders to court.</span>J.C.</blockquote>And since you don't see SoE taking folks to court, or even banning more than the worst offenders, it seems like they have wisely decided that the extreme dragnet they would have to implement to catch every little violation is NOT in their financial interest (because of the large numbers of players they would lose and drive away), or they would be taking more folks to court.Oh and "plat farming" is not a violation. There are lots of legit players who do it. Selling that plat for real world gain is the violation.</blockquote>Is it selling that's a violation.  Or is it buying?  Or both?</blockquote>Your account can be "banned" selling or buying plat if your on a non exchange server.J.C.J.C.

[pandemonium73]

<cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>pandemonium73 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sedenten wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote>You don't have to go into the n00b channel on any server to see this, scan this forum here and you will find many that argue that plat buying is not against the eula and even if it is it is not against the law. What most people do not seem to understand is, that by clicking acceptance of the EULA they are entering into a <b>legally binding contract</b>. If you never did so before do it now and scroll down close to the end and read carefully about how serious binding this contract is..it is written by lawyers and enforceable by law..this makes breaking the EULA the same as breaking a law.( it works the same way then the rules and bylaws within a home owner association they are binding and enforceable by law, you are signing and agreeing to abide by it and it is your choice to do so or not) It is NOT just a rule, breaking a rule is minor in comparison with breaking a legal binding contract. It all depends how much SOE wants to go after them and if it wants the "negative publicity" of taking them to court. As per the contract, they have all the right in the world to do so.Unfortunately many of the average 13year olds have no concept of responsibility and no concept of consequences. (and the older n00bs don't care and with that telling the younger people that is is O.K. to do whatever they want.) Most 13 year olds don't care, they are minors and it will really not impact them but they're parents...and guess what? A lot of them can care less.J.C.</blockquote><p>I've read the entire EULA for EQ1, EQ2, and several other games I play.  All the EULA means is regardless of the reasoning Sony can terminate your account at will or manipulate your characters.  So it's a more complete way of saying "if you do any of the following we can ban you" while covering themselves legally.  There's a ton more in there, but it's just filled with clauses that explain the rights Sony has to it's own game with respect to the player population.  You'll notice that giving someone else your account login info is also just as severe an offense as buying and selling platinum, items, and accounts on non-Exchange servers.  So if you gave a family member, wife, husband, or a good friend your login info, you're just as guilty as a plat seller when it comes to breaking the EULA.  </p><p>BTW, I'm not at all for in-game commerce, but stating facts concerning these EULA's, which people are quick to assume are legally binding where breaking a rule in them will get you arrested or worse.  That's simply not true.</p></blockquote>So, it is not true? It is at SOEs discretion how far they want to take any break of the EULA. Talk to a lawyer if you don't believe that this EULA is a legally binding contract. I work at a college where criminal justice is part of the curriculum. Every one of the teachers has a PHD in criminal justice and every single one agrees with me that by clicking "I Agree" you are agreeing to a legally binding contract and that SOE can take you to court for breaking any part of the contract if they so chose. Will they do it? I guess it all comes down to what kind of consequences there are for them. If the outcome is  negative publicity because they go after a single minor player..I doubt they will.  It is a LOT cheaper for SOE to ban someone then to take them to court. <span style="color: #ff9900;"> But if the outcome would be that they could recap a large sum of money because they could take out a whole bunch of plat farmers and it would be considered a positive issue in the eyes of the gamers and potential customers I bet they will enforce every line of this contract and take the offenders to court.</span>J.C.</blockquote>And since you don't see SoE taking folks to court, or even banning more than the worst offenders, it seems like they have wisely decided that the extreme dragnet they would have to implement to catch every little violation is NOT in their financial interest (because of the large numbers of players they would lose and drive away), or they would be taking more folks to court.Oh and "plat farming" is not a violation. There are lots of legit players who do it. Selling that plat for real world gain is the violation.</blockquote>Correct, although the term plat farming is mostly used to describe characters who's sole purpose it is to farm and sell on the broker to make coin that then in return gets sold to others for RL coin. It very rarely gets used to describe legit players farming for they're  "in game use" .My point with all of this is that just because SOE  as you put it "wisely" does not go after people for braking the EULA does not mean they can't go after them if they chose to do so.  One just never know, it may come to a point that they will do it to set an example. This reminds me so much of the discussions we used to have when file sharing first came out and we  all would say.."the record companies will NEVER go after people who use file sharing" ..they would lose too many customers. We all thought that the legal disclaimer on the CD was nothing but meaningless mumbo jumbo that are just "rules" that nobody ever could enforce...well we where proven wrong. I guess it just depends on the threshold of the company and when the point is reached where they feel that more enforcement then just banning accounts will be needed. J.C.</blockquote>I put it as "wisely" because I know the extreme measures it would take to catch these buggers, and I know that these measures would effect the legit player community as much as, if not more so, than just living with all but the worst plat sellers and buyers does now.I won't take the time to explain, since it's all covered here and I hate to repeat myself:<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=347061�" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...61�</a>But you are absolutely right.  If and/or when it becomes financially viable or advantageous for SoE to enforce its contract by taking people to court, they will do so.  Just remember, internet law is a new and untested frontier, and court rulings can go both ways.

[Svann]

<cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sedenten wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote>You don't have to go into the n00b channel on any server to see this, scan this forum here and you will find many that argue that plat buying is not against the eula and even if it is it is not against the law. What most people do not seem to understand is, that by clicking acceptance of the EULA they are entering into a <b>legally binding contract</b>. If you never did so before do it now and scroll down close to the end and read carefully about how serious binding this contract is..it is written by lawyers and enforceable by law..this makes breaking the EULA the same as breaking a law.( it works the same way then the rules and bylaws within a home owner association they are binding and enforceable by law, you are signing and agreeing to abide by it and it is your choice to do so or not) It is NOT just a rule, breaking a rule is minor in comparison with breaking a legal binding contract. It all depends how much SOE wants to go after them and if it wants the "negative publicity" of taking them to court. As per the contract, they have all the right in the world to do so.Unfortunately many of the average 13year olds have no concept of responsibility and no concept of consequences. (and the older n00bs don't care and with that telling the younger people that is is O.K. to do whatever they want.) Most 13 year olds don't care, they are minors and it will really not impact them but they're parents...and guess what? A lot of them can care less.J.C.</blockquote><p>I've read the entire EULA for EQ1, EQ2, and several other games I play.  All the EULA means is regardless of the reasoning Sony can terminate your account at will or manipulate your characters.  So it's a more complete way of saying "if you do any of the following we can ban you" while covering themselves legally.  There's a ton more in there, but it's just filled with clauses that explain the rights Sony has to it's own game with respect to the player population.  You'll notice that giving someone else your account login info is also just as severe an offense as buying and selling platinum, items, and accounts on non-Exchange servers.  So if you gave a family member, wife, husband, or a good friend your login info, you're just as guilty as a plat seller when it comes to breaking the EULA.  </p><p>BTW, I'm not at all for in-game commerce, but stating facts concerning these EULA's, which people are quick to assume are legally binding where breaking a rule in them will get you arrested or worse.  That's simply not true.</p></blockquote>So, it is not true? It is at SOEs discretion how far they want to take any break of the EULA. Talk to a lawyer if you don't believe that this EULA is a legally binding contract. I work at a college where criminal justice is part of the curriculum. Every one of the teachers has a PHD in criminal justice and every single one agrees with me that by clicking "I Agree" you are agreeing to a legally binding contract and that SOE can take you to court for breaking any part of the contract if they so chose. Will they do it? I guess it all comes down to what kind of consequences there are for them. If the outcome is  negative publicity because they go after a single minor player..I doubt they will.  It is a LOT cheaper for SOE to ban someone then to take them to court.  But if the outcome would be that they could recap a large sum of money because they could take out a whole bunch of plat farmers and it would be considered a positive issue in the eyes of the gamers and potential customers I bet they will enforce every line of this contract and take the offenders to court.J.C.</blockquote><p>First off, since you mentioned "criminal law" I will state that breaking a contract is not a violation of criminal law in any case where there is no danger to public health.  They can take you to civil court, not criminal.  Secondly in any case where there is a broken contract, before there can be any financial penalty there has to be "damages" shown.  They have to show the court that by the actions of the eula-breaker they lost money, and how much did it cost them.  So how much?  That is very hard to quantify and prove, and in most cases its not much.  The only time it would be a sufficient sum to be worth doing anything legal is when it is a gold-seller company, not a gold-buyer.</p><p>Note: I am not a lawyer, but I play one on some forums.</p>

[Rqron]

<cite>pandemonium73 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>pandemonium73 wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Sedenten wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote>You don't have to go into the n00b channel on any server to see this, scan this forum here and you will find many that argue that plat buying is not against the eula and even if it is it is not against the law. What most people do not seem to understand is, that by clicking acceptance of the EULA they are entering into a <b>legally binding contract</b>. If you never did so before do it now and scroll down close to the end and read carefully about how serious binding this contract is..it is written by lawyers and enforceable by law..this makes breaking the EULA the same as breaking a law.( it works the same way then the rules and bylaws within a home owner association they are binding and enforceable by law, you are signing and agreeing to abide by it and it is your choice to do so or not) It is NOT just a rule, breaking a rule is minor in comparison with breaking a legal binding contract. It all depends how much SOE wants to go after them and if it wants the "negative publicity" of taking them to court. As per the contract, they have all the right in the world to do so.Unfortunately many of the average 13year olds have no concept of responsibility and no concept of consequences. (and the older n00bs don't care and with that telling the younger people that is is O.K. to do whatever they want.) Most 13 year olds don't care, they are minors and it will really not impact them but they're parents...and guess what? A lot of them can care less.J.C.</blockquote><p>I've read the entire EULA for EQ1, EQ2, and several other games I play.  All the EULA means is regardless of the reasoning Sony can terminate your account at will or manipulate your characters.  So it's a more complete way of saying "if you do any of the following we can ban you" while covering themselves legally.  There's a ton more in there, but it's just filled with clauses that explain the rights Sony has to it's own game with respect to the player population.  You'll notice that giving someone else your account login info is also just as severe an offense as buying and selling platinum, items, and accounts on non-Exchange servers.  So if you gave a family member, wife, husband, or a good friend your login info, you're just as guilty as a plat seller when it comes to breaking the EULA.  </p><p>BTW, I'm not at all for in-game commerce, but stating facts concerning these EULA's, which people are quick to assume are legally binding where breaking a rule in them will get you arrested or worse.  That's simply not true.</p></blockquote>So, it is not true? It is at SOEs discretion how far they want to take any break of the EULA. Talk to a lawyer if you don't believe that this EULA is a legally binding contract. I work at a college where criminal justice is part of the curriculum. Every one of the teachers has a PHD in criminal justice and every single one agrees with me that by clicking "I Agree" you are agreeing to a legally binding contract and that SOE can take you to court for breaking any part of the contract if they so chose. Will they do it? I guess it all comes down to what kind of consequences there are for them. If the outcome is  negative publicity because they go after a single minor player..I doubt they will.  It is a LOT cheaper for SOE to ban someone then to take them to court. <span style="color: #ff9900;"> But if the outcome would be that they could recap a large sum of money because they could take out a whole bunch of plat farmers and it would be considered a positive issue in the eyes of the gamers and potential customers I bet they will enforce every line of this contract and take the offenders to court.</span>J.C.</blockquote>And since you don't see SoE taking folks to court, or even banning more than the worst offenders, it seems like they have wisely decided that the extreme dragnet they would have to implement to catch every little violation is NOT in their financial interest (because of the large numbers of players they would lose and drive away), or they would be taking more folks to court.Oh and "plat farming" is not a violation. There are lots of legit players who do it. Selling that plat for real world gain is the violation.</blockquote>Correct, although the term plat farming is mostly used to describe characters who's sole purpose it is to farm and sell on the broker to make coin that then in return gets sold to others for RL coin. It very rarely gets used to describe legit players farming for they're  "in game use" .My point with all of this is that just because SOE  as you put it "wisely" does not go after people for braking the EULA does not mean they can't go after them if they chose to do so.  One just never know, it may come to a point that they will do it to set an example. This reminds me so much of the discussions we used to have when file sharing first came out and we  all would say.."the record companies will NEVER go after people who use file sharing" ..they would lose too many customers. We all thought that the legal disclaimer on the CD was nothing but meaningless mumbo jumbo that are just "rules" that nobody ever could enforce...well we where proven wrong. I guess it just depends on the threshold of the company and when the point is reached where they feel that more enforcement then just banning accounts will be needed. J.C.</blockquote>I put it as "wisely" because I know the extreme measures it would take to catch these buggers, and I know that these measures would effect the legit player community as much as, if not more so, than just living with all but the worst plat sellers and buyers does now.I won't take the time to explain, since it's all covered here and I hate to repeat myself:<a rel="nofollow" href="http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=0&topic_id=347061�" target="_blank">http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/...61�</a>But you are absolutely right.  If and/or when it becomes financially viable or advantageous for SoE to enforce its contract by taking people to court, they will do so.  Just remember, internet law is a new and untested frontier, and court rulings can go both ways.</blockquote>Yes internet  law is new and a ruling could go strange ways but also, the gaming industry is quite new and quite small in contrast to some other industries and who knows what will be happening down the road. At this point in time NOTHING can be ruled out, it is a new frontier and just because some MMOS are on the market and the early versions available for 10 or more years it still is a "new" industry.  And we better never forget that the only reason gold selling outfits exist is because players that buy from them are enabling them to be there. Without buyers there will be no sellers. And of course the other way is also true if nobody would sell it there would be no buyers. So down the road if damages are large and the "threshold" is reached where game providers start going after people who break the contract who can say for sure that it will only be the seller they go after?J.C.

[Dasein]

<cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes internet  law is new and a ruling could go strange ways but also, the gaming industry is quite new and quite small in contrast to some other industries and who knows what will be happening down the road. At this point in time NOTHING can be ruled out, it is a new frontier and just because some MMOS are on the market and the early versions available for 10 or more years it still is a "new" industry.  And we better never forget that the only reason gold selling outfits exist is because players that buy from them are enabling them to be there. Without buyers there will be no sellers. And of course the other way is also true if nobody would sell it there would be no buyers. So down the road if damages are large and the "threshold" is reached where game providers start going after people who break the contract who can say for sure that it will only be the seller they go after?J.C.</blockquote>While the gaming industry itself is fairly new, the legal issues involved are not. People seem to confuse a new medium with new issues, but really, there's very little in the way of truly new legal issues involved.

[pandemonium73]

<cite>Dasein wrote:</cite><blockquote><cite>Rqron wrote:</cite><blockquote>Yes internet  law is new and a ruling could go strange ways but also, the gaming industry is quite new and quite small in contrast to some other industries and who knows what will be happening down the road. At this point in time NOTHING can be ruled out, it is a new frontier and just because some MMOS are on the market and the early versions available for 10 or more years it still is a "new" industry.  And we better never forget that the only reason gold selling outfits exist is because players that buy from them are enabling them to be there. Without buyers there will be no sellers. And of course the other way is also true if nobody would sell it there would be no buyers. So down the road if damages are large and the "threshold" is reached where game providers start going after people who break the contract who can say for sure that it will only be the seller they go after?J.C.</blockquote>While the gaming industry itself is fairly new, the legal issues involved are not. People seem to confuse a new medium with new issues, but really, there's very little in the way of truly new legal issues involved.</blockquote>This is true, but it does seem that every time old legal issues are explored in the context of new mediums, there is the potential, if not always the reality, of a paradigm shift or a reinterpretation of those legal issues.  And if folks interpret something as a risky venture and do not pursue it as if it were a risky venture, then it keeps them from pursuing lawsuits as if it WERE IN FACT a risky venture, regardless of whether it is or not.The fact is, the lawsuits against individuals pursued by the music business did not net them any real money, alienated a large number of their consumers, and did little to stop the free exchange of mp3s over the internet.  Only those who went and provided the same music downloads, at the same convenience, and at a reasonable price (which most will gladly pay if the service is only available) did anything to halt the complete loss of mp3 profits by the industry.  Now more and more people download legally because  it is simply easier and you are guaranteed a higher quality product and a hassle free download.  The point is you can win a lawsuit, and still lose. And I don't think intellectual property laws are as set in stone as some think. I do think that there is always the potential for new technology or cultural shifts to allow for reinterpretation.Either way, I'm pretty darn sure, for many reasons, it's going to be awhile, if at all, before SoE finds pursuing Eula breakers with lawsuits a smart or even viable action to take (at least against individual players).  They've done what they can by providing the exchange servers for those who want the product the plat sellers provide in a legitimate way.  I'm sure they ban cheaters or suspend accounts when they can do it without risking the game enjoyment of legitimate players (i.e. when they are ABSOLUTELY SURE the account has broken the Eula).